Re: [EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Bill,

Wait - your new plug in vehicles manage to discharge their aux battery
overnight? And there is not an outcry from owners / recall / service
campaign by the manufacturers, to solve this issue?
That is outrageous!
I know that my Leaf charges its aux battery while also charging the
pack, because I see the aux battery report 12V when it is just sitting
and I put it in accessory-on to get the computers to run and monitor the
BMS with LeafSpy, but when I plug it in, the aux battery voltage is
reported as 13V so there is a trickle going into the aux battery as well
as into the pack to avoid the aux battery draining while running coolant
pumps and computers during the charging session.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

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-Original Message-
From: Bill Woodcock [mailto:wo...@pch.net] 
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2016 8:39 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?


> On Aug 18, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Cor van de Water via EV
<ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> There actually are "USB Battery Banks" that claim their 12V output is
> enough to jump a car.

I've actually used several of them, and had excellent luck with these
two:

https://amazon.com/gp/product/B010EUNSK4

https://amazon.com/gp/product/B00CMP3Z4E

And, bringing this thread back on-topic for the list, I actually find
the Anker one to be very useful in my C-Max PHEV and Focus BEV, since
while I'm perfectly capable of keeping the traction pack charged, I'm
occasionally outwitted by the software that controls loads on the 12v
packs, so it's quite useful to be able to jump the 12v pack and get my
EVs going when they've been particularly stupid overnight.

Amen to dumb vehicles.

-Bill




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Re: [EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I have traced the Service Doc's schematics of several of my cars and
many of the power circuits are no longer directly connected to the
battery via the Ignition key contact, but instead are relay-controlled
(which is enagaged by the ignition key directly or by electronics that
is triggered by the "Start" Button for newer cars without actual
ignition key lock).
If the battery voltage is too low to allow pulling in the relay or if
the electronics controlling the "ignition" relay cannot boot from the
weak battery, then there will be no alternator output, even though the
battery voltage itself might be enough to excite the alternator - if the
power cannot get to the alternator, then you cannot push-start the car.
Maybe have an emergency override where you power only the alternator
exciter from a push button without the car turning on?
Problem is that many modern cars have an electronic parking safety that
needs battery power to disengage, so jumping is the better approach in
those cases.

Regards,

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ing. Marco
Gaxiola via EV
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2016 8:20 AM
To: Robert Bruninga; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?



 In my opinion, you may be half right. My logic says You can not start a
new vehicle with a pop-start with a 'completely ' dead 12v battery. 

 But thinking a little more i also have my doubts; since the alternator
once is spinning due to pop-start, is ready/can to produce electricity,
which in both cases would energize the entire electronics on board, by
consequence produce sparks and start the ICE machine. But me doubt comes
with a completely dead battery (0volts) not sure if the alternator
control cable (exite cable) could induce any curret so it start
producing energy. 

   If that is not true, it would only take more time to start a newer
vehicle. Also, usually batteries never get to 0v and it would depend on
how fine and robust the car's electronics is, by letting all this
process to happen with very little voltage (power)

Just like you said: the only power needed to produce a spark. On
newer vehicles would be: ...to produce the spark and efficiently power
all the needed electronics to make the engine work properly.  And that
some times may be a considerable amount of power. 


Marco

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 18, 2016, at 7:27 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV
<ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> 
> This is the only car group I know.  So pardon the off-topic post.
> 
> 
> 
> A young kid with a minicooper flagged me down to jump start his car.
I
> told him, I'd be happy to if he could figure out how to use my 400V
pack
> 
> 
> 
> Then I asked, well, have you tried just rolling it and popping the
clutch
> to get it started.  He looked at me with blank stare.  I smugly said,
sure,
> it's a stick shift, so we just get it rolling and pop the clutch and
it
> will start.
> 
> 
> 
> It wouldn't.  Then I began to realize, that all the cars I have done
this
> with in the past DID NOT HAVE ANY CPU's in them.  IE, all you have to
do is
> get a spark, not power up and entire network of computers before the
motor
> will even begin to consider the "starting process".
> 
> 
> 
> So is this true?  That we can no longer pop-start a modern car with a
dead
> battery?
> 
> 
> 
> My son (too cheap to buy a new battery) still does it frequently with
his
> pre-cpu Geo-Tracker, in fact we just did it last week.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just too old for all these newfangled hurdles...
> 
> 
> 
> Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?

[Bill Woodcock via EV]

> On Aug 18, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  
> wrote:
> 
> There actually are "USB Battery Banks" that claim their 12V output is
> enough to jump a car.

I’ve actually used several of them, and had excellent luck with these two:

https://amazon.com/gp/product/B010EUNSK4

https://amazon.com/gp/product/B00CMP3Z4E

And, bringing this thread back on-topic for the list, I actually find the Anker 
one to be very useful in my C-Max PHEV and Focus BEV, since while I’m perfectly 
capable of keeping the traction pack charged, I’m occasionally outwitted by the 
software that controls loads on the 12v packs, so it’s quite useful to be able 
to jump the 12v pack and get my EVs going when they’ve been particularly stupid 
overnight.

Amen to dumb vehicles.

-Bill




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Re: [EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Minis have an electronic key. If the various unknown precursors to running
don't exist it won't start.  Could be the starter actually spinning is
needed, but we don't know.

But fuel injection is likely as well. We have an old Chevy S10 pickup as a
yard dog at the nursery where I am working. You can't get it to start
rolling down a hill.  I blame it on the fuel injection system.  It starts
fine otherwise, but sometimes I just want to roll and pop it.

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> This is the only car group I know.  So pardon the off-topic post.
>
>
>
> A young kid with a minicooper flagged me down to jump start his car.  I
> told him, I’d be happy to if he could figure out how to use my 400V pack….
>
>
>
> Then I asked, well, have you tried just rolling it and popping the clutch
> to get it started.  He looked at me with blank stare.  I smugly said, sure,
> it’s a stick shift, so we just get it rolling and pop the clutch and it
> will start.
>
>
>
> It wouldn’t.  Then I began to realize, that all the cars I have done this
> with in the past DID NOT HAVE ANY CPU’s in them.  IE, all you have to do is
> get a spark, not power up and entire network of computers before the motor
> will even begin to consider the “starting process”.
>
>
>
> So is this true?  That we can no longer pop-start a modern car with a dead
> battery?
>
>
>
> My son (too cheap to buy a new battery) still does it frequently with his
> pre-cpu Geo-Tracker, in fact we just did it last week.
>
>
>
> I’m just too old for all these newfangled hurdles…
>
>
>
> Bob
> -- next part --
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/
> group/NEDRA)
>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Mobile and
Google Phone

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

There actually are "USB Battery Banks" that claim their 12V output is
enough to jump a car. I expect that they will need you to connect it for
several minutes to slowly recharge your 12V battery, since these devices
work by boosting the single 3.7V cell inside to whatever output is
needed (5V or 12V) so it cannot be more than a few Amps, but after
several minutes the battery may have regained sufficient energy to crank
once and that is all most modern ICE cars need.
One example of this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stanley/311594792517

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Chris Meier via
EV
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2016 5:33 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?

Most kids carry a 5V 2A+ usb battery. If only it had a 12v port it might
be enough to get the car to fire with a push. How many amps does a
'dead' ICEv need to power up? 5V to 12v boost converters are pretty
cheap. They would only need to run for a few minutes. 
It would be funnier to strap a 100w+ PV panel onto the hood jumpered in,
then push start.


-- 
-Chris

On August 18, 2016 9:27:45 AM CDT, Robert Bruninga via EV
<ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>This is the only car group I know.  So pardon the off-topic post.
>
>
>
>A young kid with a minicooper flagged me down to jump start his car.  I
>told him, I'd be happy to if he could figure out how to use my 400V
>pack
>
>
>
>Then I asked, well, have you tried just rolling it and popping the
>clutch
>to get it started.  He looked at me with blank stare.  I smugly said,
>sure,
>it's a stick shift, so we just get it rolling and pop the clutch and it
>will start.
>
>
>
>It wouldn't.  Then I began to realize, that all the cars I have done
>this
>with in the past DID NOT HAVE ANY CPU's in them.  IE, all you have to
>do is
>get a spark, not power up and entire network of computers before the
>motor
>will even begin to consider the "starting process".
>
>
>
>So is this true?  That we can no longer pop-start a modern car with a
>dead
>battery?
>
>
>
>My son (too cheap to buy a new battery) still does it frequently with
>his
>pre-cpu Geo-Tracker, in fact we just did it last week.
>
>
>
>I'm just too old for all these newfangled hurdles...
>
>
>
>Bob
>-- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?

[Chris Meier via EV]

Most kids carry a 5V 2A+ usb battery. If only it had a 12v port it might be 
enough to get the car to fire with a push. How many amps does a 'dead' ICEv 
need to power up? 5V to 12v boost converters are pretty cheap. They would only 
need to run for a few minutes. 
It would be funnier to strap a 100w+ PV panel onto the hood jumpered in,  then 
push start.


-- 
-Chris

On August 18, 2016 9:27:45 AM CDT, Robert Bruninga via EV  
wrote:
>This is the only car group I know.  So pardon the off-topic post.
>
>
>
>A young kid with a minicooper flagged me down to jump start his car.  I
>told him, I’d be happy to if he could figure out how to use my 400V
>pack….
>
>
>
>Then I asked, well, have you tried just rolling it and popping the
>clutch
>to get it started.  He looked at me with blank stare.  I smugly said,
>sure,
>it’s a stick shift, so we just get it rolling and pop the clutch and it
>will start.
>
>
>
>It wouldn’t.  Then I began to realize, that all the cars I have done
>this
>with in the past DID NOT HAVE ANY CPU’s in them.  IE, all you have to
>do is
>get a spark, not power up and entire network of computers before the
>motor
>will even begin to consider the “starting process”.
>
>
>
>So is this true?  That we can no longer pop-start a modern car with a
>dead
>battery?
>
>
>
>My son (too cheap to buy a new battery) still does it frequently with
>his
>pre-cpu Geo-Tracker, in fact we just did it last week.
>
>
>
>I’m just too old for all these newfangled hurdles…
>
>
>
>Bob
>-- next part --
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>
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Re: [EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?

[paul dove via EV]

Depends on what is wrong. You still need to be able to generate a field in the 
alternator to power the fuel injectors. If the battery is open or you have a 
bad cable it won't start. Older cars had a generator instead of an alternator.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 18, 2016, at 9:27 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> This is the only car group I know.  So pardon the off-topic post.
> 
> 
> 
> A young kid with a minicooper flagged me down to jump start his car.  I
> told him, I’d be happy to if he could figure out how to use my 400V pack….
> 
> 
> 
> Then I asked, well, have you tried just rolling it and popping the clutch
> to get it started.  He looked at me with blank stare.  I smugly said, sure,
> it’s a stick shift, so we just get it rolling and pop the clutch and it
> will start.
> 
> 
> 
> It wouldn’t.  Then I began to realize, that all the cars I have done this
> with in the past DID NOT HAVE ANY CPU’s in them.  IE, all you have to do is
> get a spark, not power up and entire network of computers before the motor
> will even begin to consider the “starting process”.
> 
> 
> 
> So is this true?  That we can no longer pop-start a modern car with a dead
> battery?
> 
> 
> 
> My son (too cheap to buy a new battery) still does it frequently with his
> pre-cpu Geo-Tracker, in fact we just did it last week.
> 
> 
> 
> I’m just too old for all these newfangled hurdles…
> 
> 
> 
> Bob
> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Typically this works (with both new and old cars) if there is still some
juice left in the battery, but not enough to allow cranking. Since the
spark for the ICE depends not only on the engine turning but also
electric power and the alternator will not deliver power if its control
circuit does not get at least a little power to activate the electro
magnet that causes it to generate power in the first place.
So, if the kid's battery was not connected or really dead, then you
cannot push-start the car - except when it has an old style (mechanical
pump and injection) diesel engine. I have driven a Diesel home which had
a bad alternator, so slowly the lights were fading and eventually the
last mile I had to navigate in the dark, but the Diesel engine kept
going.
It is exceedingly hard to push-start a cold Diesel engine however, due
to the need to pre-heat.
I am suspecting that the kid you found had left lights (hazards?) on and
the car's battery was too dead to power up the alternator (and all the
other electronics). For example in the Classic (2001-2003) Prius a weak
battery still needs to run the pump for the brake booster and it often
needs to finish before the voltage comes back up and the car will allow
you to start, so if the battery is too dead you cannot get it going.
Sometimes it helps to turn everything off, wait several minutes and then
try starting twice, first to fill the brake booster and as soon as that
pump stops, to try starting the car (booting the computers).
Regards,

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Robert Bruninga
via EV
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2016 7:28 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?

This is the only car group I know.  So pardon the off-topic post.



A young kid with a minicooper flagged me down to jump start his car.  I
told him, I'd be happy to if he could figure out how to use my 400V
pack



Then I asked, well, have you tried just rolling it and popping the
clutch
to get it started.  He looked at me with blank stare.  I smugly said,
sure,
it's a stick shift, so we just get it rolling and pop the clutch and it
will start.



It wouldn't.  Then I began to realize, that all the cars I have done
this
with in the past DID NOT HAVE ANY CPU's in them.  IE, all you have to do
is
get a spark, not power up and entire network of computers before the
motor
will even begin to consider the "starting process".



So is this true?  That we can no longer pop-start a modern car with a
dead
battery?



My son (too cheap to buy a new battery) still does it frequently with
his
pre-cpu Geo-Tracker, in fact we just did it last week.



I'm just too old for all these newfangled hurdles...



Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

My Honda Insight has a neutral safety switch in it and I can jump start my 
stick 
shift...

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719

>
> It likely has to do with the neutral safety switch that became mandatory in 
> new 
> cars a
> couple of decades ago.
> -Tom
>



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Re: [EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?

[Thos True via EV]

It likely has to do with the neutral safety switch that became mandatory in
new cars a couple of decades ago.
-Tom

On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 7:27 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> This is the only car group I know.  So pardon the off-topic post.
>
>
>
> A young kid with a minicooper flagged me down to jump start his car.  I
> told him, I’d be happy to if he could figure out how to use my 400V pack….
>
>
>
> Then I asked, well, have you tried just rolling it and popping the clutch
> to get it started.  He looked at me with blank stare.  I smugly said, sure,
> it’s a stick shift, so we just get it rolling and pop the clutch and it
> will start.
>
>
>
> It wouldn’t.  Then I began to realize, that all the cars I have done this
> with in the past DID NOT HAVE ANY CPU’s in them.  IE, all you have to do is
> get a spark, not power up and entire network of computers before the motor
> will even begin to consider the “starting process”.
>
>
>
> So is this true?  That we can no longer pop-start a modern car with a dead
> battery?
>
>
>
> My son (too cheap to buy a new battery) still does it frequently with his
> pre-cpu Geo-Tracker, in fact we just did it last week.
>
>
>
> I’m just too old for all these newfangled hurdles…
>
>
>
> Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?

[Ing. Marco Gaxiola via EV]

 In my opinion, you may be half right. My logic says You can not start a new 
vehicle with a pop-start with a 'completely ' dead 12v battery. 

 But thinking a little more i also have my doubts; since the alternator once is 
spinning due to pop-start, is ready/can to produce electricity, which in both 
cases would energize the entire electronics on board, by consequence produce 
sparks and start the ICE machine. But me doubt comes with a completely dead 
battery (0volts) not sure if the alternator control cable (exite cable) could 
induce any curret so it start producing energy. 

   If that is not true, it would only take more time to start a newer vehicle. 
Also, usually batteries never get to 0v and it would depend on how fine and 
robust the car's electronics is, by letting all this process to happen with 
very little voltage (power)

Just like you said: the only power needed to produce a spark. On newer 
vehicles would be: ...to produce the spark and efficiently power all the needed 
electronics to make the engine work properly.  And that some times may be a 
considerable amount of power. 


Marco

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 18, 2016, at 7:27 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> This is the only car group I know.  So pardon the off-topic post.
> 
> 
> 
> A young kid with a minicooper flagged me down to jump start his car.  I
> told him, I’d be happy to if he could figure out how to use my 400V pack….
> 
> 
> 
> Then I asked, well, have you tried just rolling it and popping the clutch
> to get it started.  He looked at me with blank stare.  I smugly said, sure,
> it’s a stick shift, so we just get it rolling and pop the clutch and it
> will start.
> 
> 
> 
> It wouldn’t.  Then I began to realize, that all the cars I have done this
> with in the past DID NOT HAVE ANY CPU’s in them.  IE, all you have to do is
> get a spark, not power up and entire network of computers before the motor
> will even begin to consider the “starting process”.
> 
> 
> 
> So is this true?  That we can no longer pop-start a modern car with a dead
> battery?
> 
> 
> 
> My son (too cheap to buy a new battery) still does it frequently with his
> pre-cpu Geo-Tracker, in fact we just did it last week.
> 
> 
> 
> I’m just too old for all these newfangled hurdles…
> 
> 
> 
> Bob
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[EVDL] Pop-starting a stick shift?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

This is the only car group I know.  So pardon the off-topic post.



A young kid with a minicooper flagged me down to jump start his car.  I
told him, I’d be happy to if he could figure out how to use my 400V pack….



Then I asked, well, have you tried just rolling it and popping the clutch
to get it started.  He looked at me with blank stare.  I smugly said, sure,
it’s a stick shift, so we just get it rolling and pop the clutch and it
will start.



It wouldn’t.  Then I began to realize, that all the cars I have done this
with in the past DID NOT HAVE ANY CPU’s in them.  IE, all you have to do is
get a spark, not power up and entire network of computers before the motor
will even begin to consider the “starting process”.



So is this true?  That we can no longer pop-start a modern car with a dead
battery?



My son (too cheap to buy a new battery) still does it frequently with his
pre-cpu Geo-Tracker, in fact we just did it last week.



I’m just too old for all these newfangled hurdles…



Bob
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