Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

2017-12-06 Thread Hoegberg via EV 


Från: EV  för Hoegberg via EV 
Skickat: den 5 december 2017 06:23
Till: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Kopia: Hoegberg
Ämne: Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are 
incredibly dumb


I just dont get it.. why burn the good Toyota brand like this? 
To me it seems like a big ZeppelinSeppuku move. :-/ 

..if it really consumes 4 times (!!) more solar energy per mile (?), then 
it is just crazy to push a product like the Mirai in year 2018? 

 
Bonus video!
Tony Seba, he did this 8 minute talk about hydrogen vs battery storage for ev:s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23lz9ercqvA 

/ J
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

2017-12-04 Thread Hoegberg via EV 

I really dont get this , but many many people now talk about this instead of 
ev:s:

Toyota here(Sweden) tries hard to push the Mirai as the "future" of cars, (yes 
it seems to be a nice hybrd EV, but the battery is ultra small!!) ,

So, Mirai..a car that might be using something like 4 times(?) as much solar 
panel installations m2 to run the same distances as the Hyundai ionic electric 
(they are about the same size cars) , 

Toyoda runs multiple tv-ads here about the thing, even many at the same night, 
also full page ads in EV-magazines, and so on.

 -"Mirai, the electric car that charges as you drive it!", 

or the fantastic(?) "-H2O is the new Co2!" -slogan.. 

it seems to be, in total, 4 hydrogen stations here in the country, so you maybe 
get about 200 km range from that pump, if you want to make it back again. ..and 
you dont, :-) because the pump is not in/close to the city. 

For example here in the capital city (Stockholm) , you probably at the moment 
need to go all the way up to the Arlanda airport to fill it up, and then go 
back home again..   Hmm.
(yes this point can impove a lot and millions of filling stations like the wall 
outlets might be the future (hmm,, no)  ,  but can the car really improve 
enough?  or the electrolyzer?)
/ J 




Från: EV  för Michael Ross via EV 
Skickat: den 29 oktober 2017 17:37
Till: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Kopia: Michael Ross
Ämne: Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are 
incredibly dumb

I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
to work on HFCVs.

A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.

I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..

He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
environment and habitat, etc.

At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.
You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you
scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly.  It is bad enough the
200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it
would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its
production and use.

I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials
needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages.

I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power
vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move.

BentMIke



On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
> https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
> Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward with
> hydrogen anyway
> Oct. 26th 2017  Fred Lambert
>
> [image
> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/
> electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg?
> quality=82=1024#038;strip=all=1600
>
> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_
> hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82=all
> ]
>
> For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over
> battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put
> the
> Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry.
>
> Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell
> “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing
> in
> the technology.
>
> Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as
> an
> energy storage system for vehicles.
>
> For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense
> compared to battery-powered vehicles.
>
> Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell vehicle
> ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle
>

Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

2017-11-01 Thread Michael Ross via EV 
Right, those are all comments related to EVs.

For an alternative to pump storage, batteries, and other means to store
non-peak-use-time renewables production, and at a scale that eliminates ALL
non renewable generation continentally or globally), hydrogen becomes much
more attractive even given the inefficiencies (and they are as bad as 50%).
This is because storing it at that scale can be safe (underground for
instance or in tanks not subject to embrittlement), and more practical.

Then if you had all this hydrogen it could be useful for other
applications, like HFCEVs. As far as safety goes in EVs, you got to choose
your poison.  Anyway you look at it you are creating a potentially
dangerous energy density, whether it be chemical, or electrical, or
kinetic, or whatever. We already do gasoline and various flammable gasses.
(You can't smell LNG without methyl mercaptan to make it stinky.) Shorting
and melting batteries suck. Mistreat a big flywheel and Euler's moments
send off in a difficult to control fashion.  They are all "bad" when they
get away from you.

Stationary applications are far easier and can be sequestered.

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 6:45 PM, paul dove via EV  wrote:

> Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage
> device. In addition, it has many technical drawbacks.
>
> I just think that they're extremely sillyit's just very difficult to
> make hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you say
> took a solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack directly,
> compared to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen, compress hydrogen...it
> is about half the efficiency."
>
> He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that it's
> extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an invisible flame.
>
> Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There
> certainly
> > is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy
> which
> > it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and
> transport
> > medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's
> decision
> > to work on HFCVs.
> >
> > A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
> > mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
> > energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
> > potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.
> >
> > I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an
> early
> > adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
> > like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..
> >
> > He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
> > workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination
> of
> > environment and habitat, etc.
> >
> > At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.
> > You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense
> it
> > with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
> > liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
> > would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
> > pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous
> holes
> > for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
> > electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When
> you
> > scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly.  It is bad enough
> the
> > 200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it
> > would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its
> > production and use.
> >
> > I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials
> > needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important
> advantages.
> >
> > I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power
> > vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move.
> >
> > BentMIke
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
> >> Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward
> with
> >> hydrogen anyway
> >> Oct. 26th 2017  Fred Lambert
> >>
> >> [image
> >> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/
> >> electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg?
> >> quality=82=1024#038;strip=all=1600
> >>
> >> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_
> >> hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82=all
> >> ]
> >>
> >> For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over
> >> battery-electric vehicles for its

Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

2017-10-31 Thread Lee Hart via EV 
There is an interesting point of overlap between hydrogen energy storage 
and battery energy storage.  The nickel-hydrogen battery has been used 
for decades. They are capable of very long life, and high energy 
density, and can work in extreme environments. The International Space 
Station uses them. The hydrogen is stored in a pressure vessel, like the 
tank for a fuel cell.


The nimh cell is a variation of the nickel-hydrogen cell. Rather than 
being stored in a separate pressure tank, the H2 is adsorbed onto the 
spongy metal hydride electrode inside the cell itself.


--
There is a computer disease that anybody who works with computers knows
about. It's very serious, and interferes completely with your work. The
trouble with computers is that you 'play' with them! (Richard Feynman)
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

2017-10-31 Thread paul dove via EV 
Hey Mark,

I’m not arguing with you! I was trying to relate what I heard Elon say. I could 
be wrong but he seemed to be talking in general not just focused on EVs. We 
used Hydrogen in the Space Shuttle and they even had a Hydrogen fuel cell on 
board but it you notice Space X used RP1. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 31, 2017, at 1:37 AM, Mark Abramowitz  wrote:
> 
> Inefficient energy storage device? How so? 
> 
> Compared to batteries, they can store energy much longer. Batteries are in 
> their sweet spot for energy storage for a number of hours, hydrogen for 
> longer periods. Batteries are for small scale storage, hydrogen can be used 
> up to grid level storage.
> 
> Musk comments that it's more efficient to directly charge a battery. Maybe 
> that's true, but there are a long list of advantages and disadvantages of 
> hydrogen/battery hybrids AND batteries-only. So use the correct tool for the 
> job. For the auto, it depends what's best for you. To say otherwise is to 
> suggest everyone should buy a compact, or an SUV, or ...
> 
> I think *that's* pretty silly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 30, 2017, at 3:45 PM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage device. 
>> In addition, it has many technical drawbacks.
>> 
>> I just think that they're extremely sillyit's just very difficult to 
>> make hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you say took 
>> a solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack directly, 
>> compared to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen, compress hydrogen...it 
>> is about half the efficiency."
>> 
>> He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that it's 
>> extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an invisible flame. 
>> 
>> Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
>>> is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
>>> it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
>>> medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
>>> to work on HFCVs.
>>> 
>>> A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
>>> mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
>>> energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
>>> potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.
>>> 
>>> I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
>>> adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
>>> like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..
>>> 
>>> He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
>>> workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
>>> environment and habitat, etc.
>>> 
>>> At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good..
>>> You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
>>> with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
>>> liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
>>> would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
>>> pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
>>> for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
>>> electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

2017-10-31 Thread Peri Hartman via EV 
Hydrogen might be useful for grid storage. Looking at roughly 50% 
efficiency is a big hit but if you have surplus energy and no other 
practical way to store it, H2 is an alternative. Pumped storage, on the 
other hand, is estimated to be 70-80% efficient. A better alternative if 
you can create lakes at two different levels - or use abandoned mine 
caverns. And just building a better grid will help too, so that energy 
can be used immediately, even at long distances.


But if you're creating H2 from methane or natural gas to use in an FCEV, 
that's silly. Just burn the natural gas in an ICE. More efficient.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" 
Sent: 30-Oct-17 11:37:28 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are 
incredibly dumb



Inefficient energy storage device? How so?

Compared to batteries, they can store energy much longer. Batteries are 
in their sweet spot for energy storage for a number of hours, hydrogen 
for longer periods. Batteries are for small scale storage, hydrogen can 
be used up to grid level storage.


Musk comments that it's more efficient to directly charge a battery. 
Maybe that's true, but there are a long list of advantages and 
disadvantages of hydrogen/battery hybrids AND batteries-only. So use 
the correct tool for the job. For the auto, it depends what's best for 
you. To say otherwise is to suggest everyone should buy a compact, or 
an SUV, or ...


I think *that's* pretty silly.


Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 30, 2017, at 3:45 PM, paul dove via EV  
wrote:


Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage 
device. In addition, it has many technical drawbacks.


I just think that they're extremely sillyit's just very difficult 
to make hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you 
say took a solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack 
directly, compared to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen, 
compress hydrogen...it is about half the efficiency."


He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that 
it's extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an 
invisible flame.


Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion.


Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV  
wrote:


I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There 
certainly
is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy 
which
it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and 
transport
medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's 
decision

to work on HFCVs.

A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project 
in

mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global 
scale.


I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an 
early
adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did 
stuff

like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..

He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant 
ruination of

environment and habitat, etc.

At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very 
good.
You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and 
dispense it

with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I 
think it
would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers 
for
pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous 
holes

for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  
When you

___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)




___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

2017-10-31 Thread Paul Compton via EV 
On 31 October 2017 at 06:37, Mark Abramowitz via EV  wrote:

> Inefficient energy storage device? How so?

In the way that efficiency is defined; Energy out of the system,
divided by energy into the system, multiplied by 100.


> Compared to batteries, they can store energy much longer. Batteries are in 
> their sweet spot for energy storage for a number of hours, hydrogen for 
> longer periods. Batteries are for small scale storage, hydrogen can be used 
> up to grid level storage.

Where you have excess energy that would otherwise not be utilised,
then even a low efficiency storage system can make sense. It still
makes more sense to use a more efficient storage technology if the
technolgy costs are comparable. Redox batteries for example.


-- 
Paul Compton
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

2017-10-31 Thread Mark Abramowitz via EV 
Inefficient energy storage device? How so? 

Compared to batteries, they can store energy much longer. Batteries are in 
their sweet spot for energy storage for a number of hours, hydrogen for longer 
periods. Batteries are for small scale storage, hydrogen can be used up to grid 
level storage.

Musk comments that it's more efficient to directly charge a battery. Maybe 
that's true, but there are a long list of advantages and disadvantages of 
hydrogen/battery hybrids AND batteries-only. So use the correct tool for the 
job. For the auto, it depends what's best for you. To say otherwise is to 
suggest everyone should buy a compact, or an SUV, or ...

I think *that's* pretty silly.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 30, 2017, at 3:45 PM, paul dove via EV  wrote:
> 
> Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage device. 
> In addition, it has many technical drawbacks.
> 
> I just think that they're extremely sillyit's just very difficult to make 
> hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you say took a 
> solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack directly, compared 
> to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen, compress hydrogen...it is about 
> half the efficiency."
> 
> He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that it's 
> extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an invisible flame. 
> 
> Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
>> is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
>> it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
>> medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
>> to work on HFCVs.
>> 
>> A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
>> mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
>> energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
>> potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.
>> 
>> I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
>> adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
>> like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..
>> 
>> He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
>> workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
>> environment and habitat, etc.
>> 
>> At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.
>> You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
>> with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
>> liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
>> would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
>> pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
>> for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
>> electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)

Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

2017-10-30 Thread paul dove via EV 
Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage device. In 
addition, it has many technical drawbacks.

I just think that they're extremely sillyit's just very difficult to make 
hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you say took a solar 
panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack directly, compared to split 
water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen, compress hydrogen...it is about half the 
efficiency."

He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that it's 
extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an invisible flame. 

Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
> 
> I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
> is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
> it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
> medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
> to work on HFCVs.
> 
> A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
> mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
> energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
> potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.
> 
> I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
> adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
> like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..
> 
> He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
> workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
> environment and habitat, etc.
> 
> At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.
> You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
> with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
> liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
> would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
> pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
> for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
> electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you
> scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly.  It is bad enough the
> 200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it
> would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its
> production and use.
> 
> I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials
> needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages.
> 
> I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power
> vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move.
> 
> BentMIke
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
>> Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward with
>> hydrogen anyway
>> Oct. 26th 2017  Fred Lambert
>> 
>> [image
>> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/
>> electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg?
>> quality=82=1024#038;strip=all=1600
>> 
>> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_
>> hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82=all
>> ]
>> 
>> For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over
>> battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put
>> the
>> Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry.
>> 
>> Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell
>> “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing
>> in
>> the technology.
>> 
>> Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as
>> an
>> energy storage system for vehicles.
>> 
>> For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense
>> compared to battery-powered vehicles.
>> 
>> Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell vehicle
>> ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle
>> getting
>> its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the hydrogen.
>> 
>> The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered
>> vehicle.
>> 
>> The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car. You
>> can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car
>> can
>> take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour.
>> 
>> But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be
>> refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight.
>> 
>> That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward
>> when comparing the two technologies.
>> 
>>

Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

2017-10-29 Thread Larry Gales via EV 
I certainly concur with your analysis: fuel cells are not a good option for
cars, but large scale energy storage is a much more likely possibility

On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV 
wrote:

> I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
> is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
> it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
> medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
> to work on HFCVs.
>
> A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
> mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
> energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
> potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.
>
> I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
> adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
> like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..
>
> He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
> workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
> environment and habitat, etc.
>
> At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.
> You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
> with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
> liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
> would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
> pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
> for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
> electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you
> scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly.  It is bad enough the
> 200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it
> would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its
> production and use.
>
> I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials
> needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages.
>
> I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power
> vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move.
>
> BentMIke
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV 
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
> > Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward
> with
> > hydrogen anyway
> > Oct. 26th 2017  Fred Lambert
> >
> > [image
> > https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/
> > electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg?
> > quality=82=1024#038;strip=all=1600
> >
> > https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_
> > hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82=all
> > ]
> >
> > For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over
> > battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put
> > the
> > Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry.
> >
> > Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell
> > “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing
> > in
> > the technology.
> >
> > Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as
> > an
> > energy storage system for vehicles.
> >
> > For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense
> > compared to battery-powered vehicles.
> >
> > Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell
> vehicle
> > ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle
> > getting
> > its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the
> hydrogen.
> >
> > The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered
> > vehicle.
> >
> > The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car.
> You
> > can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car
> > can
> > take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour.
> >
> > But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be
> > refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight.
> >
> > That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward
> > when comparing the two technologies.
> >
> > Surprisingly, Yoshikazu Tanaka, the chief engineer in charge of Toyota’s
> > Mirai, admitted to Reuters this week that plug-in cars make more sense:
> >
> > “Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly
> > by
> > plugging in,”
> >
> > But Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada adds that they don’t see the two
> > technologies competing and that they are not giving up on hydrogen (yet):
> >
> > “We don’t really see an adversary ‘zero-sum’ relationship between the
> > EV

Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

2017-10-29 Thread Michael Ross via EV 
I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs.  There certainly
is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which
it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport
medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision
to work on HFCVs.

A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in
mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable
energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its
potential.  He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale.

I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice.  He was an early
adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff
like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster..

He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a
workable solution.  Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of
environment and habitat, etc.

At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.
You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it
with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it
liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles.  But I think it
would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for
pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes
for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for
electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on.  When you
scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly.  It is bad enough the
200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it
would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its
production and use.

I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials
needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages.

I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power
vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move.

BentMIke



On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
> https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
> Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward with
> hydrogen anyway
> Oct. 26th 2017  Fred Lambert
>
> [image
> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/
> electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg?
> quality=82=1024#038;strip=all=1600
>
> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_
> hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82=all
> ]
>
> For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over
> battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put
> the
> Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry.
>
> Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell
> “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing
> in
> the technology.
>
> Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as
> an
> energy storage system for vehicles.
>
> For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense
> compared to battery-powered vehicles.
>
> Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell vehicle
> ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle
> getting
> its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the hydrogen.
>
> The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered
> vehicle.
>
> The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car. You
> can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car
> can
> take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour.
>
> But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be
> refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight.
>
> That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward
> when comparing the two technologies.
>
> Surprisingly, Yoshikazu Tanaka, the chief engineer in charge of Toyota’s
> Mirai, admitted to Reuters this week that plug-in cars make more sense:
>
> “Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly
> by
> plugging in,”
>
> But Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada adds that they don’t see the two
> technologies competing and that they are not giving up on hydrogen (yet):
>
> “We don’t really see an adversary ‘zero-sum’ relationship between the
> EV
> (electric vehicle) and the hydrogen car. We’re not about to give up on
> hydrogen electric fuel-cell technology at all.”
>
> They want to keep pushing the Mirai, which has been a poor performer. They
> only managed to sell a few as compliance cars in California despite the
> generous incentives.
>
> Electrek’s Take
>
> He is not wrong that the two technologies don’t compete. They don’t compete
> in the minds of potential customers, but

[EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb

2017-10-29 Thread brucedp5 via EV 


https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward with
hydrogen anyway
Oct. 26th 2017  Fred Lambert

[image  
https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg?quality=82=1024#038;strip=all=1600

https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82=all
]

For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over
battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put the
Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry.

Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell 
“incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing in
the technology.

Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as an
energy storage system for vehicles.

For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense
compared to battery-powered vehicles.

Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell vehicle
ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle getting
its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the hydrogen.

The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered
vehicle.

The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car. You
can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car can
take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour.

But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be
refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight.

That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward
when comparing the two technologies.

Surprisingly, Yoshikazu Tanaka, the chief engineer in charge of Toyota’s
Mirai, admitted to Reuters this week that plug-in cars make more sense:

“Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly by
plugging in,”

But Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada adds that they don’t see the two
technologies competing and that they are not giving up on hydrogen (yet):

“We don’t really see an adversary ‘zero-sum’ relationship between the EV
(electric vehicle) and the hydrogen car. We’re not about to give up on
hydrogen electric fuel-cell technology at all.”

They want to keep pushing the Mirai, which has been a poor performer. They
only managed to sell a few as compliance cars in California despite the
generous incentives.

Electrek’s Take

He is not wrong that the two technologies don’t compete. They don’t compete
in the minds of potential customers, but they compete for investments from
automakers and those investments lead to further development and production
for one or the other.

It becomes clear when you look at automakers who have been heavily investing
in hydrogen cars, like Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai, and see that they have
become laggers in the EV space.

The sooner they give up on hydrogen, at least for passenger cars, the sooner
they will be able to divert those billions of dollars in investments into
battery-electric vehicles. I say passenger cars because Toyota is also
working on hydrogen trucks, which make better economic sense.

But for passenger cars, it makes no sense based on efficiency and economics,
which makes it hard to understand why some automakers are still pushing so
hard for it ...
[© electrek.co]



http://www.news18.com/news/auto/hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-push-dumb-toyota-makes-a-case-for-the-mirai-1558347.html
Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Car Push 'Dumb'? Toyota Makes a Case For The Mirai
October 26, 2017 ... which usually goes to waste when unused, and
electricity generated by solar and ... “Elon Musk is right - it's better to
charge the electric car directly by plugging in,” ...




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 http://evdl.org/archive/


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
___
UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)