Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 I listen to: Now you know, E for electric, Electric Viking, Best in Tesla and 
Sandy Munroe. All easily accessible on YouTube.  Where do you get your 
information? Or should I say attitude. EVs will be 50% of car sales by 2025. 
70% by 2027. Our dreams are happening faster than anyone would have guessed a 
few years ago. People are not stupid. Solar panels and EVs means independence 
from big oil. Every day EVs are delayed it is 10 billion in the pockets of big 
oil. Just look at the numbers. Not hard to do. Tesla is selling more than the 
Accord and Civic and soon will overtake Camry and Corolla. 
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g39628015/best-selling-cars-2022/ If Toyota 
doesn't drop Hydrogen and hybrids they are doomed. Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 12/21/2022 10:00 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

Isn’t China where most of Tesla’s sales are?  While US and Europe have some 
importance, near term performance is all about China.


Well, China is about 24% of Tesla Revenue so far this year.

https://cnevpost.com/2022/10/24/tesla-24-of-q3-revenue-from-china/

I've seen graphs of sales numbers by country - but can't find them right 
now.


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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Isn’t China where most of Tesla’s sales are?  While US and Europe have some 
importance, near term performance is all about China.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Dec 21, 2022, at 7:41 AM, John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
> 
> On 12/21/2022 12:08 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>>  That's why I think that despite strong (but declining) Tesla sales, Renault,
>> Stellantis, and VW will eventually clean Tesla's clock in Europe.? They
>> actually build EVs for normal people - and normal, middle-income Europoeans
>> are buying them.?
> You do realize that the Tesla Model Y is likely to be the most popular car 
> (not EV, car) in the EU (possibly the world) next year?
> That's just following the production/sales numbers - which, by the way, don't 
> show any declining sales. (another year of 50% growth)
> Also, VW has now decided to change how they are going to make EV's - by 
> delaying plans for several more years.
> 
> Just where do you get your info?
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 12/21/2022 12:08 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

  That's why I think that despite strong (but declining) Tesla sales, Renault,
Stellantis, and VW will eventually clean Tesla's clock in Europe.? They
actually build EVs for normal people - and normal, middle-income Europoeans
are buying them.?
You do realize that the Tesla Model Y is likely to be the most popular 
car (not EV, car) in the EU (possibly the world) next year?
That's just following the production/sales numbers - which, by the way, 
don't show any declining sales. (another year of 50% growth)
Also, VW has now decided to change how they are going to make EV's - by 
delaying plans for several more years.


Just where do you get your info?

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 That's why I think that despite strong (but declining) Tesla sales, Renault,
Stellantis, and VW will eventually clean Tesla's clock in Europe.? They
actually build EVs for normal people - and normal, middle-income Europoeans
are buying them.? And despite what all y'all may think, I'm still convinced
that the future success of EVs is mostly in the EU and China, not here in
the US.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
You couldn't be more wrong. Tesla is so far ahead it will be only BYD that can 
catch them. GM and Ford maybe Stellates, Honda and Toyota will eventually go 
belly up.  Mazda is doomed. Subaru also doomed. Hyundai/Kia maybe. When the 25k 
Tesla comes out it will be the knife twist to the gut. Tesla is making more 
money selling electric cars than any other car maker making ICE vehicles. Their 
profit per car is remarkable. https://youtu.be/arYz-aK6lM8 
https://youtu.be/KngBPRfeJd0 Lawrence Rhodes

   
  
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I'll add, David, I really don't see how else Musk could have done it.

First, I think it's fair to consider the Roadster as Tesla's first mass 
produced model. I believe that preceded all other mass produced EVs by a 
good margin, except the EV1.


Considering the cost of the battery, especially roughly 20 years ago, 
how could Musk have marketed a vehicle oriented to the average consumer 
? True, that's the large market that needed (and still needs) to be 
satisfied. But he couldn't build that car at a competitive price. So, he 
had to market to the affluent who wanted something unique to show off 
and have fun with. Adding some walnut trim (or whatever it was), leather 
seats, and other fancy stuff was relatively cheap compared to the 
battery cost so, volià, a luxury EV. And it sold. Well. Do you think an 
expensive car with vinyl trim, cloth seats, no automatic controls, etc. 
would have appealed in the same way ?


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "paul dove" ; "EV List Lackey" 


Sent: 20-Dec-22 06:14:58
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS


Really, how did you get so jaded? It is getting tiresome. Ask yourself how many 
automobile startups have you seen in your life that were successful? Nissan, 
Mitsubishi and others are established companies who are subsidized by their 
governments. Tesla has been fighting and uphill battle. Everyone wants to 
punish them when they have been an American company bringing good jobs to 
America. The Leaf had battery problems when it came out. The I-MiEV was 
discontinued because of lack of sales. Here you are in your armchair trying to 
convince us about what the people want.
Electric vehicles were expensive. When the plasma TV came out it was 15,000. 
Without rich people as you call them some companies would have never made it 
past the first year.
Tesla all by itself changes Americas view of the electric car. It certainly 
wasn’t the I-MiEV or the Leaf. The model 3 out sells the Camry.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, December 19, 2022, 4:16 PM, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:

On 19 Dec 2022 at 20:44, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:


 If Elon hadn't started the EV mass production revolution, some one else
 surely would have. But it might have been several years later and might
 have been to weak the first time around to not be squashed by the ICE
 industry.


"Someone else" was already advancing the production EV movement by the time
the model S arrived.  The Mitsubishi Imiev and Nissan Leaf were ahead of it,
and IIRC the Renault Zoe (not offered in the US) launched at around the same
time.

Tesla certainly had some innovations that those EVs didn't have. Some were
substantial, but many were just luxury gadgets.

Tesla's primary "innovation" was making an EV that appealed to rich folks,
especially celebrity greens awash in excess cash.  Those gadgets and
gimmicks were part of the appeal.

That was easy for Musk to push, because he was already then such an
obscenely rich person.

To this day, Teslas are based not on what research shows the average driver
needs, but on what appeals to Elon Musk.  If you don't like what he likes,
tough luck.

That's why I think that despite strong (but declining) Tesla sales, Renault,
Stellantis, and VW will eventually clean Tesla's clock in Europe.  They
actually build EVs for normal people - and normal, middle-income Europoeans
are buying them.  And despite what all y'all may think, I'm still convinced
that the future success of EVs is mostly in the EU and China, not here in
the US.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

A good question is never answered.  It is not a bolt to be
tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear
more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of ideas.

  -- John Ciardi
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

Really, how did you get so jaded? It is getting tiresome. Ask yourself how many 
automobile startups have you seen in your life that were successful? Nissan, 
Mitsubishi and others are established companies who are subsidized by their 
governments. Tesla has been fighting and uphill battle. Everyone wants to 
punish them when they have been an American company bringing good jobs to 
America. The Leaf had battery problems when it came out. The I-MiEV was 
discontinued because of lack of sales. Here you are in your armchair trying to 
convince us about what the people want. 
Electric vehicles were expensive. When the plasma TV came out it was 15,000. 
Without rich people as you call them some companies would have never made it 
past the first year. 
Tesla all by itself changes Americas view of the electric car. It certainly 
wasn’t the I-MiEV or the Leaf. The model 3 out sells the Camry. 


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, December 19, 2022, 4:16 PM, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:

On 19 Dec 2022 at 20:44, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> If Elon hadn't started the EV mass production revolution, some one else 
> surely would have. But it might have been several years later and might 
> have been to weak the first time around to not be squashed by the ICE 
> industry.

"Someone else" was already advancing the production EV movement by the time 
the model S arrived.  The Mitsubishi Imiev and Nissan Leaf were ahead of it, 
and IIRC the Renault Zoe (not offered in the US) launched at around the same 
time.  

Tesla certainly had some innovations that those EVs didn't have. Some were 
substantial, but many were just luxury gadgets.  

Tesla's primary "innovation" was making an EV that appealed to rich folks, 
especially celebrity greens awash in excess cash.  Those gadgets and 
gimmicks were part of the appeal.  

That was easy for Musk to push, because he was already then such an 
obscenely rich person.  

To this day, Teslas are based not on what research shows the average driver 
needs, but on what appeals to Elon Musk.  If you don't like what he likes, 
tough luck.  

That's why I think that despite strong (but declining) Tesla sales, Renault, 
Stellantis, and VW will eventually clean Tesla's clock in Europe.  They 
actually build EVs for normal people - and normal, middle-income Europoeans 
are buying them.  And despite what all y'all may think, I'm still convinced 
that the future success of EVs is mostly in the EU and China, not here in 
the US.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    A good question is never answered.  It is not a bolt to be 
    tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear 
    more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of ideas.

                                                  -- John Ciardi
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Michael Ross via EV]

Unrelated to EVs, EU and China are demographically and geographically
doomed. Especially China.

On Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 5:17 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 19 Dec 2022 at 20:44, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>
> > If Elon hadn't started the EV mass production revolution, some one else
> > surely would have. But it might have been several years later and might
> > have been to weak the first time around to not be squashed by the ICE
> > industry.
>
> "Someone else" was already advancing the production EV movement by the
> time
> the model S arrived.  The Mitsubishi Imiev and Nissan Leaf were ahead of
> it,
> and IIRC the Renault Zoe (not offered in the US) launched at around the
> same
> time.
>
> Tesla certainly had some innovations that those EVs didn't have. Some were
> substantial, but many were just luxury gadgets.
>
> Tesla's primary "innovation" was making an EV that appealed to rich folks,
> especially celebrity greens awash in excess cash.  Those gadgets and
> gimmicks were part of the appeal.
>
> That was easy for Musk to push, because he was already then such an
> obscenely rich person.
>
> To this day, Teslas are based not on what research shows the average
> driver
> needs, but on what appeals to Elon Musk.  If you don't like what he likes,
> tough luck.
>
> That's why I think that despite strong (but declining) Tesla sales,
> Renault,
> Stellantis, and VW will eventually clean Tesla's clock in Europe.  They
> actually build EVs for normal people - and normal, middle-income
> Europoeans
> are buying them.  And despite what all y'all may think, I'm still
> convinced
> that the future success of EVs is mostly in the EU and China, not here in
> the US.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  A good question is never answered.  It is not a bolt to be
>  tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear
>  more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of ideas.
>
>   -- John Ciardi
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
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> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Michael Ross via EV]

The commercial success of iMIEV versus Tesla is demonstrative that Tesla's
was much better route to jump starting the paradigm. Why are you so
bothered that someone makes a lot of money? It takes people who can raise
and spend well to make the first world we all enjoy so much.

I do like the iMIEV, and it would be much more the sort of car I woulf buy,
but I never have actually seen one.

I am curious if you are also exersized at J B Straubel? Tesla needed his
efforts to succeed and J B made some scratch too.

On Mon, Dec 19, 2022, 5:17 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 19 Dec 2022 at 20:44, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>
> > If Elon hadn't started the EV mass production revolution, some one else
> > surely would have. But it might have been several years later and might
> > have been to weak the first time around to not be squashed by the ICE
> > industry.
>
> "Someone else" was already advancing the production EV movement by the
> time
> the model S arrived.  The Mitsubishi Imiev and Nissan Leaf were ahead of
> it,
> and IIRC the Renault Zoe (not offered in the US) launched at around the
> same
> time.
>
> Tesla certainly had some innovations that those EVs didn't have. Some were
> substantial, but many were just luxury gadgets.
>
> Tesla's primary "innovation" was making an EV that appealed to rich folks,
> especially celebrity greens awash in excess cash.  Those gadgets and
> gimmicks were part of the appeal.
>
> That was easy for Musk to push, because he was already then such an
> obscenely rich person.
>
> To this day, Teslas are based not on what research shows the average
> driver
> needs, but on what appeals to Elon Musk.  If you don't like what he likes,
> tough luck.
>
> That's why I think that despite strong (but declining) Tesla sales,
> Renault,
> Stellantis, and VW will eventually clean Tesla's clock in Europe.  They
> actually build EVs for normal people - and normal, middle-income
> Europoeans
> are buying them.  And despite what all y'all may think, I'm still
> convinced
> that the future success of EVs is mostly in the EU and China, not here in
> the US.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  A good question is never answered.  It is not a bolt to be
>  tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear
>  more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of ideas.
>
>   -- John Ciardi
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

>  In a way, he acts like a dictator

Oh, interesting. At the risk of throwing this discussion off-topic 
(hell, it's already bouncing off the guardrails as-is):


Whenever I hear the term "dictator" tossed around casually, I 
encourage people to examine the origins of the term, and the several 
iterations of dictatorship:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictator

See specifically the "Etymology" and "Crowd manipulation" sections of 
the Wikipedia entries (Cult of personality, anyone?).


As for Musk, we can all agree that he is a divisive figure, with 
nearly everyone coming down on one side or the other in discussions. 
Makes me wonder what Nikola Tesla would do/say? (Would that I could 
post a photo of my "WWTD" T-shirt, with image of Nikola posing thoughtfully).


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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 12/19/2022 2:16 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
Tesla's primary "innovation" was making an EV that appealed to rich 
folks,

especially celebrity greens awash in excess cash.  Those gadgets and
gimmicks were part of the appeal.



Actually, I think his main innovation was how to BUILD cars 
economically. Tesla Factories are WAY better than any legacy car maker, 
and the car designs are FAR FAR better.  Easier to build, less expensive 
to build, etc..  Tesla is WAY ahead of the game in the software area as 
well - they are the ones pushing the legacy car makers to actually THINK 
about software being a major feature of the car.



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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Bob Bath via EV]

This entire thread is at once spot.on, and amusing. 
I’m 57, so I remember GM crapping on the EV movement with their proprietary 
Magnecharge system; lease-only EV-1, and lobbying against clean air mandates. 
It disgusted me and I vowed never to buy GM. 
Fast forward 30 years. I have a 20 GM Bolt that needs a game plan on a 
“minor” battery issue. I have a ‘13 LEAF that I needed to go to a 3rd party to 
upgrade what was a feeble battery and no thermal mgt of same. 
3 family members have Teslas and love them, but can’t stand the politics of 
the CEO. 

Sincerely, 
Bob Bath
541.761.0838

Note: any misspellings of the contents of this message are due to 57 y.o. 
vision, hyperactive spell check changing what I typed, or fat fingering— not 
cluelessness. 


> On Dec 19, 2022, at 2:17 PM, EV List Lackey via EV  wrote:
> 
> On 19 Dec 2022 at 20:44, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> 
>> If Elon hadn't started the EV mass production revolution, some one else 
>> surely would have. But it might have been several years later and might 
>> have been to weak the first time around to not be squashed by the ICE 
>> industry.
> 
> "Someone else" was already advancing the production EV movement by the time 
> the model S arrived.  The Mitsubishi Imiev and Nissan Leaf were ahead of it, 
> and IIRC the Renault Zoe (not offered in the US) launched at around the same 
> time.   
> 
> Tesla certainly had some innovations that those EVs didn't have. Some were 
> substantial, but many were just luxury gadgets.  
> 
> Tesla's primary "innovation" was making an EV that appealed to rich folks, 
> especially celebrity greens awash in excess cash.  Those gadgets and 
> gimmicks were part of the appeal.  
> 
> That was easy for Musk to push, because he was already then such an 
> obscenely rich person.  
> 
> To this day, Teslas are based not on what research shows the average driver 
> needs, but on what appeals to Elon Musk.  If you don't like what he likes, 
> tough luck.  
> 
> That's why I think that despite strong (but declining) Tesla sales, Renault, 
> Stellantis, and VW will eventually clean Tesla's clock in Europe.  They 
> actually build EVs for normal people - and normal, middle-income Europoeans 
> are buying them.  And despite what all y'all may think, I'm still convinced 
> that the future success of EVs is mostly in the EU and China, not here in 
> the US.
> 
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> 
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> 
> A good question is never answered.  It is not a bolt to be 
> tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear 
> more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of ideas.
> 
>  -- John Ciardi
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> 
> ___
> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
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> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> 

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 19 Dec 2022 at 20:44, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> If Elon hadn't started the EV mass production revolution, some one else 
> surely would have. But it might have been several years later and might 
> have been to weak the first time around to not be squashed by the ICE 
> industry.

"Someone else" was already advancing the production EV movement by the time 
the model S arrived.  The Mitsubishi Imiev and Nissan Leaf were ahead of it, 
and IIRC the Renault Zoe (not offered in the US) launched at around the same 
time.   

Tesla certainly had some innovations that those EVs didn't have. Some were 
substantial, but many were just luxury gadgets.  

Tesla's primary "innovation" was making an EV that appealed to rich folks, 
especially celebrity greens awash in excess cash.  Those gadgets and 
gimmicks were part of the appeal.  

That was easy for Musk to push, because he was already then such an 
obscenely rich person.  

To this day, Teslas are based not on what research shows the average driver 
needs, but on what appeals to Elon Musk.  If you don't like what he likes, 
tough luck.  

That's why I think that despite strong (but declining) Tesla sales, Renault, 
Stellantis, and VW will eventually clean Tesla's clock in Europe.  They 
actually build EVs for normal people - and normal, middle-income Europoeans 
are buying them.  And despite what all y'all may think, I'm still convinced 
that the future success of EVs is mostly in the EU and China, not here in 
the US.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 A good question is never answered.  It is not a bolt to be 
 tightened into place but a seed to be planted and to bear 
 more seed toward the hope of greening the landscape of ideas.

  -- John Ciardi
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

 No, you are being difficult. It's obvious to me that folks on this forum 
dislikes Telsa based fabricated information. Did anyone here look up facts 
about the CEO's of Ford, GM, Nissan, Toyota, etc. before they bought a car? It 
is sheer nonsense.
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 01:32:59 PM CST, Lawrence Winiarski 
 wrote:  
 
 Still, if he didn't need themwhy didn't he just start on his own?   You 
are avoiding the question.

On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:05:51 AM PST, paul dove 
 wrote:  
 
  How do you know they didn't need him?
I was under the impression that they approached him about investing.
Elon said Eberhard was wealthy but unwilling to risk his own money.
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 12:23:36 PM CST, Lawrence Winiarski 
 wrote:  
 
 Still, if the the original Tesla guys did nothing, had no product, were 
worthless etc.then why did Musk bother with them in the first place?
Seems if I was such a "brilliant visionary"  with a billion dollars why did he 
he need them?


On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 09:40:56 AM PST, paul dove 
 wrote:  
 
  I would not characterize it in that way. 
They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product 
yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush 
became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a 
year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with 
turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 
2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they 
shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in 
October of 2008.



On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from 
scratch?

    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."

As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3
decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote.

EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace,
rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing
engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of
mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has
been remarkable.

I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the
early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the
while. He is clearly visionary.

Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a
working engineer.

As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other
similar edeavors are different?

As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and
still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a
balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like
laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I
like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real
accomplishment.


On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34
>
> Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Peri Hartman via EV]

My turn :)

Here's the thing. Somebody had to take some floundering ventures and 
push them on a grand scale. Elon's the right kind of guy for that - big 
ego, big money, and a high risk taker. Whether he's the smartest 
engineer is irrelevant. Sure, he needs to be able to understand what 
others are explaining and make decisions, but he can rely on those 
others (or chose to ignore them, which he frequently appears to do) as 
needed.


The result is he makes big, brash, fast decisions.

In a way, he acts like a dictator. He abhors government process and is 
infuriated by indecisiveness of others. He wants to act. Now. For a 
small startup, I find this tolerable, though it would be better if he 
could keep his mouth shut in public :) To some degree, skirting 
government regulations, making employees work under duress, and so on, 
is ok with me while trying to get a first product to market. Of course, 
that changes when later on. But, my point is, that kind of person 
probably has a much higher chance of success than someone who plans 
everything carefully and proceeds cautiously. They'll never get their 
first product out.


If Elon hadn't started the EV mass production revolution, some one else 
surely would have. But it might have been several years later and might 
have been to weak the first time around to not be squashed by the ICE 
industry.


So, you can hate Elon for his brashness, his poorly thought out 
statements, and his lack of consideration of others. I do. And you can 
love him for getting something done.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>

-- Original Message --
From: "paul dove via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" ; "Lawrence 
Winiarski" 

Cc: "paul dove" 
Sent: 19-Dec-22 11:05:46
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS


 How do you know they didn't need him?
I was under the impression that they approached him about investing.
Elon said Eberhard was wealthy but unwilling to risk his own money.
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 12:23:36 PM CST, Lawrence Winiarski 
 wrote:

 Still, if the the original Tesla guys did nothing, had no product, were 
worthless etc.then why did Musk bother with them in the first place?
Seems if I was such a "brilliant visionary"  with a billion dollars why did he 
he need them?


On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 09:40:56 AM PST, paul dove 
 wrote:

  I would not characterize it in that way.
They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product 
yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush 
became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a 
year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with 
turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 
2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they 
shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in 
October of 2008.



On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:

 Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from 
scratch?

On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote:

 "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."

As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3
decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote.

EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace,
rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing
engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of
mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has
been remarkable.

I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the
early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the
while. He is clearly visionary.

Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a
working engineer.

As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other
similar edeavors are different?

As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and
still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a
balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like
laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I
like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real
accomplishment.


On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:


 On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34

 Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.



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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

 How do you know they didn't need him?
I was under the impression that they approached him about investing.
Elon said Eberhard was wealthy but unwilling to risk his own money.
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 12:23:36 PM CST, Lawrence Winiarski 
 wrote:  
 
 Still, if the the original Tesla guys did nothing, had no product, were 
worthless etc.then why did Musk bother with them in the first place?
Seems if I was such a "brilliant visionary"  with a billion dollars why did he 
he need them?


On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 09:40:56 AM PST, paul dove 
 wrote:  
 
  I would not characterize it in that way. 
They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product 
yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush 
became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a 
year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with 
turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 
2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they 
shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in 
October of 2008.



On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from 
scratch?

    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."

As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3
decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote.

EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace,
rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing
engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of
mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has
been remarkable.

I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the
early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the
while. He is clearly visionary.

Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a
working engineer.

As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other
similar edeavors are different?

As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and
still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a
balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like
laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I
like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real
accomplishment.


On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34
>
> Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

 I would not characterize it in that way. 
They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product 
yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush 
became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a 
year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with 
turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 
2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they 
shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in 
October of 2008.



On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from 
scratch?

    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."

As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3
decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote.

EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace,
rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing
engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of
mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has
been remarkable.

I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the
early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the
while. He is clearly visionary.

Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a
working engineer.

As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other
similar edeavors are different?

As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and
still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a
balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like
laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I
like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real
accomplishment.


On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34
>
> Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Still, if he didn't need themwhy didn't he just start on his own?   You are 
avoiding the question.

On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 11:05:51 AM PST, paul dove 
 wrote:  
 
  How do you know they didn't need him?
I was under the impression that they approached him about investing.
Elon said Eberhard was wealthy but unwilling to risk his own money.
On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 12:23:36 PM CST, Lawrence Winiarski 
 wrote:  
 
 Still, if the the original Tesla guys did nothing, had no product, were 
worthless etc.then why did Musk bother with them in the first place?
Seems if I was such a "brilliant visionary"  with a billion dollars why did he 
he need them?


On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 09:40:56 AM PST, paul dove 
 wrote:  
 
  I would not characterize it in that way. 
They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product 
yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush 
became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a 
year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with 
turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 
2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they 
shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in 
October of 2008.



On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from 
scratch?

    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."

As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3
decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote.

EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace,
rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing
engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of
mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has
been remarkable.

I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the
early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the
while. He is clearly visionary.

Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a
working engineer.

As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other
similar edeavors are different?

As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and
still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a
balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like
laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I
like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real
accomplishment.


On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34
>
> Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Still, if the the original Tesla guys did nothing, had no product, were 
worthless etc.then why did Musk bother with them in the first place?
Seems if I was such a "brilliant visionary"  with a billion dollars why did he 
he need them?


On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 09:40:56 AM PST, paul dove 
 wrote:  
 
  I would not characterize it in that way. 
They were a year old when he invested ((2004). They didn't even have a product 
yet. They just had an idea; the prototype was unveiled 2 years after Mush 
became chairman of the board of directors (2006). Eberhard resigned as CEO a 
year after that (2007). Ze'ev Drori took over as CEO. Drori is credited with 
turning the prototype into a viable product. The launch of the Roadster was 
2008. Eberhard and Tarpenning left the company before the Roadster before they 
shipped the first Roadster (February 2008) to Musk. Musk took over CEO in 
October of 2008.



On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 10:45:11 AM CST, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from 
scratch?

    On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."

As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3
decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote.

EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace,
rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing
engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of
mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has
been remarkable.

I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the
early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the
while. He is clearly visionary.

Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a
working engineer.

As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other
similar edeavors are different?

As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and
still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a
balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like
laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I
like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real
accomplishment.


On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34
>
> Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Why did Musk buy Tesla rather than create a car company on his own from scratch?

On Monday, December 19, 2022 at 08:26:25 AM PST, Michael Ross via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 "Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."

As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3
decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote.

EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace,
rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing
engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of
mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has
been remarkable.

I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the
early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the
while. He is clearly visionary.

Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a
working engineer.

As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other
similar edeavors are different?

As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and
still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a
balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like
laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I
like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real
accomplishment.


On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34
>
> Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Michael Ross via EV]

"Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies."

As a manufacturing, and electromrchanical product design engineer for 3
decades I am calling troll bullshit jealousy on part A of this quote.

EM is a fine engineer in many disciplines. Mechanical, software, aerospace,
rocket engine development, I am very impressed at his manufacturing
engineering, and his management (which includes hiring the best). Plenty of
mistakes made, but his embrace of breaking prototypes to learn fast has
been remarkable.

I have been following Tesla and SpaceX since before Model S and during the
early rocket testing in Macgregor TX. I have been listening to EM all the
while. He is clearly visionary.

Any one who can't credit EM with real engineering chops, clearly is not a
working engineer.

As to parts B & C, that is obvious, and so what? Do you think any other
similar edeavors are different?

As far as behavior goes, lots of mistakes there. EM is on the spectrum and
still does pretty well. I have to take the good and the bad to have a
balanced outlook. He would likely not hire me, if for no reason than I like
laying in the sun an planting stuff to make my yard prettier, more than I
like the corporate engineering environment. I can still repect real
accomplishment.


On Sun, Dec 18, 2022, 9:35 PM EV List Lackey via EV 
wrote:

> On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34
>
> Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

You all need to change the name of this list from electric vehicle discussion 
list to Tesla bashing discussion list. 
Musk attended Queen’s University in Kingston, Ontario, and in 1992 he 
transferred to the University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, where he received 
bachelor’s degrees in physicsand economics in 1997. 
www.britannica.com/biography/Elon-Musk 

Average Tesla Salary: By Location, Job Title, and Department  



www.zippia.com/tesla-careers-11363/salary/



Tesla’s compensation and benefits packages play a significant role in 
attracting and retaining employees. According to Statista, Tesla employs over 
99,000 workers who are highly skilled in their respective fields. Tesla’s 
workforce has increased over 100-fold since 2010, and it seems to be continuing 
the trend of rapid growth.

To attract top talent, Tesla’s employee benefits and perks need to be 
attractive, so Tesla provides lucrative salaries and employee benefit packages 
to attract and retain top tech industry experts. Below is an overview of 
Tesla’s salaries and employee benefits packages. 

careerkarma.com/blog/tesla-benefits/ 




Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, December 18, 2022, 8:35 PM, EV List Lackey via EV 
 wrote:

On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> I think this is an example of the logical fallacies that permeate our 
> society today.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I see nothing fallacious in such a 
decision.  Rational purchasing decisions take many factors into account.

> Musk may be a jerk; but he still deserves credit for accomplished great
> things. 

I'll give him credit for lining up Tesla's financing, which I don't think 
Gage and Eberhard could have done.  He also did a fair bit to dispel EVs' 
undeserved "golf-car-and-forklift" image.

But that was well over a decade ago.  IMO, in recent years, Tesla has 
succeeded more in spite of Musk than because of him. 

Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.  

You're mission driven for EVs, and I suspect Tesla's engineers are too, but 
that takes you only so far when the boss treats you like trash.

Tesla also can't have a living and thriving business without customers.

A year ago, only those of us who followed EVs pretty closely knew about 
Musk's employee abuse, his company's poor safety record, and his violations 
of California and EU environmental and labor laws.  

Now his Twitter dumpster fire is all over the news, and everybody knows 
about at least his callous attitude toward his employees.  No surprise, 
recent surveys show Tesla's "brand image" sliding into the negative.

www.teslarati.com/tesla-approval-rating-negative-territory-survey/

With that, and rapidly rising prices, Tesla's vehicle sales are down.  

If Musk could stay off Twitter, they might eventually recover.  But unlike 
more emotionally mature CEOs, I don't think he has the impulse control to do 
that.

Tesla's stock price is down too, off over 60 percent from its peak, with 
much of that decline arriving after he took over Twitter.

https://bipartisanreport.com/2022/12/14/tesla-stock-value-suffers-steep-
decline-amidst-musk-antics/

or https://v.gd/aQjxy1

Musk could depress the stock further if he sells more of it to prop up his 
personal megaphone, Twitter.

A Tesla may be a fine EV, but it's not 2013.  Today there are many more good 
EV choices, especially in Europe.

With all due respect, I don't think that it's at all irrational to buy a non-
Tesla EV to avoid putting any more money into Musk's already-stuffed 
pockets. 

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 19 Dec 2022 at 1:51, paul dove via EV wrote:

> you should stop with I actually never met Elon. 

Now hold on just a minute here.  Bill didn't say that.  

Please reread his message to refresh your memory of what he really said.

I don't speak for Bill, but maybe he'll elaborate on what "I have it on good 
authority" means.  Or not; perhaps he won't think that he owes you, or us, 
any further elaboration.

It seems to me that entirely apart from personal relationships, public 
statements and public actions of public figures are fair game for we the 
public to make certain judgments about said figures.  

Musk has certainly given the public plenty of both, especially in the last 
couple of months.  

In my opinion, which may not be worth much, what he's revealed about himself 
doesn't suggest a bright future for Tesla under his leadership.  That's 
something that any EV follower should be concerned about.

Or perhaps, as his cult members sometimes suggest, he's just playing n-
dimensional chess.  Perhaps via some magic incantation, that management 
style will work better for him than it has for, say, Vladimir Putin.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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 more importance on things that have a price than on things
 that have a value.

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

It’s a fact that people believe evil and pass it on much faster than anything 
good. So, you should stop with I actually never met Elon. 


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, December 18, 2022, 5:32 PM, Bill Dube via EV  
wrote:

You haven't actually met Elon, have you.

I have it on good authority that Elon is a very very difficult man to 
work for. This may be why he is so successful, perhaps.

What I read in the news lately about Elon seems completely in character 
for him. I don't doubt anything I have read so far in the least.

Bill D.

On 12/19/2022 5:40 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:
> Alleged mis-behavior
>
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 18 Dec 2022 at 13:34, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> I think this is an example of the logical fallacies that permeate our 
> society today.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I see nothing fallacious in such a 
decision.  Rational purchasing decisions take many factors into account.

> Musk may be a jerk; but he still deserves credit for accomplished great
> things. 

I'll give him credit for lining up Tesla's financing, which I don't think 
Gage and Eberhard could have done.  He also did a fair bit to dispel EVs' 
undeserved "golf-car-and-forklift" image.

But that was well over a decade ago.  IMO, in recent years, Tesla has 
succeeded more in spite of Musk than because of him. 

Musk isn't a real engineer, and without engineers, Tesla dies.  

You're mission driven for EVs, and I suspect Tesla's engineers are too, but 
that takes you only so far when the boss treats you like trash.

Tesla also can't have a living and thriving business without customers.

A year ago, only those of us who followed EVs pretty closely knew about 
Musk's employee abuse, his company's poor safety record, and his violations 
of California and EU environmental and labor laws.  

Now his Twitter dumpster fire is all over the news, and everybody knows 
about at least his callous attitude toward his employees.  No surprise, 
recent surveys show Tesla's "brand image" sliding into the negative.

www.teslarati.com/tesla-approval-rating-negative-territory-survey/

With that, and rapidly rising prices, Tesla's vehicle sales are down.  

If Musk could stay off Twitter, they might eventually recover.  But unlike 
more emotionally mature CEOs, I don't think he has the impulse control to do 
that.

Tesla's stock price is down too, off over 60 percent from its peak, with 
much of that decline arriving after he took over Twitter.

https://bipartisanreport.com/2022/12/14/tesla-stock-value-suffers-steep-
decline-amidst-musk-antics/

or https://v.gd/aQjxy1

Musk could depress the stock further if he sells more of it to prop up his 
personal megaphone, Twitter.

A Tesla may be a fine EV, but it's not 2013.  Today there are many more good 
EV choices, especially in Europe.

With all due respect, I don't think that it's at all irrational to buy a non-
Tesla EV to avoid putting any more money into Musk's already-stuffed 
pockets. 

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 18 Dec 2022 at 16:40, paul dove via EV wrote:

> Alleged mis-behavior 

Musk is something of a cult figure, and a cult figure's followers will 
always find ways to excuse or minimize their leader's anti-social and/or 
inhumane behavior.   

It's not a crime to be an gaping a-hole, so no "alleged" is needed for that.

But Musk does appear to be already violating many laws, including labor and 
environmental laws in California and the EU.  At least one of his 
advertising proposals for Twitter will unquestionably break EU privacy laws.

Of course I can only say "appear to be" and "allegedly" - until he's 
convicted.  But for goodness sake, he's totally open about what he's doing, 
not even trying to hide it.   

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Never been to Cleveland when the sun was shining. 
Even when it shines, it looks like rain. 

  -- Melanie Safka, "Between the Road Signs"
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 12/18/22 14:34, Lee Hart via EV wrote:




My wife is one of those who refuse to consider a Tesla vehicle based
upon his (miss) behavior...


I think this is an example of the logical fallacies that permeate our 
society today. 
Basically, it's an "Ad hominem" (to the man) argument (attacking the 
man, rather than what he has produced). Musk may be a jerk; but he still 
deserves credit for accomplished great things.


Both my wife and I acknowledge that the Tesla vehicles are technically 
excellent (which is not always the same as reliable), but she is "voting 
with her pocketbook" to not support the company/CEO on ideological grounds.


Some of that is she detests Elon Musk personally, and some of that is 
using his past behavior as a gauge of how the company may (or may not) 
support out of warranty owners in the future.


Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

 Have to?  I am sure they did the math. 
On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 10:18:27 AM CST, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  Too little too late.  Now Tesla is going to have to add the clunky CCS
connectors to its network at considerable expense.
I use a Tesla tap. Tesla has a CHAdeMO adapter.  Tesla could just require an 
adapter,  purchased at user expense, to access Superchargers.  Shoudn't cost 
more than $250. Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Bill Dube via EV]

You haven't actually met Elon, have you.

I have it on good authority that Elon is a very very difficult man to 
work for. This may be why he is so successful, perhaps.


What I read in the news lately about Elon seems completely in character 
for him. I don't doubt anything I have read so far in the least.


Bill D.

On 12/19/2022 5:40 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:

Alleged mis-behavior

Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone




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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Robert Johnston via EV]

I, for one, applaud Elon Musk's business savvy - He came in at the right
time to purchase PayPal, Tesla and SpaceX, and those companies managed to
insulate themselves from him with layers of middle management so his bad
ideas didn't cause too many problems for them.

Elon didn't make Tesla, after all. He wasn't a founder of the company, and
he isn't responsible for anything more than standing on stage, accepting
applause and over-promising on ideas. Autopilot, CyberTruck and the new
Roadster, for example.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2022 at 13:35, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> >> Yes, hate for Musk seems to dominate. Here and elsewhere. Despite his
> >> obvious skills and MANY successes...
>
> > My wife is one of those who refuse to consider a Tesla vehicle based
> > upon his (miss) behavior...
>
> I think this is an example of the logical fallacies that permeate our
> society today. Carl Sagan neatly summarized such fallacies in his book
> "The Demon Haunted World"
> <
> https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/fomps/carl_sagans_list_of_logical_fallacies/
> >
>
> Basically, it's an "Ad hominem" (to the man) argument (attacking the
> man, rather than what he has produced). Musk may be a jerk; but he still
> deserves credit for accomplished great things.
>
> If we disregarded the accomplishments of every flawed individual, we'd
> have ignored the work of Thomas Jefferson (slave owner), Henry Ford
> (anti-semite and Nazi sympathizer), Steve Jobs (arrogant bully), etc.
>
> Lee Hart
>
> --
> "Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, you'll be a
> mile away and have his shoes."
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
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-- 
Robert "Anaerin" Johnston
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Steves via EV]

Many highly gifted people are flawed (well aren’t we all?). We do need to 
balance their contributions against their faults. 

Consumer choice is an excellent method of ‘voting’ to encourage productive 
behavior and discouraging harmful behavior. I am turned off from buying a Tesla 
due to the way he treats his employees. 

-Steve

> On Dec 18, 2022, at 2:35 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>>> Yes, hate for Musk seems to dominate. Here and elsewhere. Despite his
>>> obvious skills and MANY successes...
> 
>> My wife is one of those who refuse to consider a Tesla vehicle based
>> upon his (miss) behavior...
> 
> I think this is an example of the logical fallacies that permeate our society 
> today. Carl Sagan neatly summarized such fallacies in his book "The Demon 
> Haunted World" 
> 
> 
> Basically, it's an "Ad hominem" (to the man) argument (attacking the man, 
> rather than what he has produced). Musk may be a jerk; but he still deserves 
> credit for accomplished great things.
> 
> If we disregarded the accomplishments of every flawed individual, we'd have 
> ignored the work of Thomas Jefferson (slave owner), Henry Ford (anti-semite 
> and Nazi sympathizer), Steve Jobs (arrogant bully), etc.
> 
> Lee Hart
> 
> -- 
> "Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, you'll be a mile 
> away and have his shoes."
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> 
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Lee Hart via EV]

Yes, hate for Musk seems to dominate. Here and elsewhere. Despite his
obvious skills and MANY successes...



My wife is one of those who refuse to consider a Tesla vehicle based
upon his (miss) behavior...


I think this is an example of the logical fallacies that permeate our 
society today. Carl Sagan neatly summarized such fallacies in his book 
"The Demon Haunted World" 



Basically, it's an "Ad hominem" (to the man) argument (attacking the 
man, rather than what he has produced). Musk may be a jerk; but he still 
deserves credit for accomplished great things.


If we disregarded the accomplishments of every flawed individual, we'd 
have ignored the work of Thomas Jefferson (slave owner), Henry Ford 
(anti-semite and Nazi sympathizer), Steve Jobs (arrogant bully), etc.


Lee Hart

--
"Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, you'll be a 
mile away and have his shoes."

--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

--
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[paul dove via EV]

Alleged mis-behavior 

Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, December 18, 2022, 9:08 AM, Jay Summet via EV  
wrote:



On 12/17/22 11:21, Willie McKemie via EV wrote:
> Yes, hate for Musk seems to dominate. Here and elsewhere. Despite his
> obvious skills and MANY successes. I am confused.

I think it's partially because he appears to be an asshole who creates a 
toxic work environment.

I respect the technical successes SpaceX / Tesla have achieved, but I 
certainly wouldn't want to be working at Twitter right now.  A smart 
(female) computer scientist I advised did an internship at SpaceX and 
also cited culture issues there.

My wife is one of those who refuse to consider a Tesla vehicle based 
upon his (miss) behavior.

Jay

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 12/17/22 11:21, Willie McKemie via EV wrote:

Yes, hate for Musk seems to dominate. Here and elsewhere. Despite his
obvious skills and MANY successes. I am confused.


I think it's partially because he appears to be an asshole who creates a 
toxic work environment.


I respect the technical successes SpaceX / Tesla have achieved, but I 
certainly wouldn't want to be working at Twitter right now.  A smart 
(female) computer scientist I advised did an internship at SpaceX and 
also cited culture issues there.


My wife is one of those who refuse to consider a Tesla vehicle based 
upon his (miss) behavior.


Jay

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Many states require that it can be paid for directly with a credit card.
This is why at almost every public CCS you see a card reader.

On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 11:51 AM John Lussmyer via EV 
wrote:

> On 12/17/2022 10:49 AM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
> > Still, I think to qualify for
> > all, they have to have a way to accept credit cards at the pedestal
> without
> > using a membership card or phone app.   This means adding a card reader
> and
> > user interface.
>
> Wouldn't that depend on if a free Phone-App payment system is allowed as
> the payment system?
>
> That would get rid of the display and card reader requirements.
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 12/17/2022 10:49 AM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

Still, I think to qualify for
all, they have to have a way to accept credit cards at the pedestal without
using a membership card or phone app.   This means adding a card reader and
user interface.


Wouldn't that depend on if a free Phone-App payment system is allowed as 
the payment system?


That would get rid of the display and card reader requirements.


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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Tesla is after free government subsidies offered to try to build more fast
charging stations.  To qualify for most programs I've seen, they have to be
using a "Standard" and be non-discriminatory (open to all).

First step; they have been blocking all unsupported (salvage) Teslas from
their network, so they have to walk back this policy, and I can see they
are.  There are a substantial number of blacklisted cars because insurance
companies now "total" most Teslas even with minor damage.  This is mainly
because parts availability is so poor, and they don't want to be paying for
a customer's rental car for 6 months.  (Until Tesla gets around to coughing
up the parts needed to get the car repaired.)

Second step; they have to update supercharger stations to have a
"standard", and this really only means CCS.   Now maybe they could
technically do it with a tethered adapter.  (Like some of these other
charging companies trying to offer Tesla supercharging, where they are
using a tethered Tesla CHAdeO adapter.)   Still, I think to qualify for
all, they have to have a way to accept credit cards at the pedestal without
using a membership card or phone app.   This means adding a card reader and
user interface.   I don't see Tesla just "rigging" it with some adapter.

Another way which I think has no hope, is to somehow convince regulators
that the Tesla implementation is a real standard, hence:
https://www.tesla.com/blog/opening-north-american-charging-standard

On Sat, Dec 17, 2022 at 8:18 AM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

>  Too little too late.  Now Tesla is going to have to add the clunky CCS
> connectors to its network at considerable expense.
> I use a Tesla tap. Tesla has a CHAdeMO adapter.  Tesla could just require
> an adapter,  purchased at user expense, to access Superchargers.  Shoudn't
> cost more than $250. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 Seems cutting off your nose to spite your face applies. Lawrence Rhodes 
On Saturday, December 17, 2022 at 08:21:54 AM PST, Willie McKemie 
 wrote:  
 
 Yes, hate for Musk seems to dominate. Here and elsewhere. Despite his obvious 
skills and MANY successes. I am confounded.
On Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 10:11 Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:

 Somewhere painful? CCS would be more painful there. After using all three 
standards, Tesla is clearly superior and probably easier for conversions. That 
said, hate for Musk causes people to buy $100k Mercedes rather than a clearly 
superior Model S or Y. Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Willie McKemie via EV]

Yes, hate for Musk seems to dominate. Here and elsewhere. Despite his
obvious skills and MANY successes. I am confounded.

On Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 10:11 Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

>  Somewhere painful? CCS would be more painful there. After using all three
> standards, Tesla is clearly superior and probably easier for conversions.
> That said, hate for Musk causes people to buy $100k Mercedes rather than a
> clearly superior Model S or Y. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 Too little too late.  Now Tesla is going to have to add the clunky CCS
connectors to its network at considerable expense.
I use a Tesla tap. Tesla has a CHAdeMO adapter.  Tesla could just require an 
adapter,  purchased at user expense, to access Superchargers.  Shoudn't cost 
more than $250. Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 Somewhere painful? CCS would be more painful there. After using all three 
standards, Tesla is clearly superior and probably easier for conversions. That 
said, hate for Musk causes people to buy $100k Mercedes rather than a clearly 
superior Model S or Y. Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Paul Compton via EV]

There's an old joke that a Camel is a horse designed by committee.

The CCS charging standard appears to have been designed by a committee
of Camels.

https://youtu.be/q_F7h5qcTJY

On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 at 16:53, Evan Tuer via EV  wrote:
>
> I fully agree.  Even the "Euro" Tesla high power connector would have been
> preferable to CCS combo-2.  The engineers did a great job on both.
> Tesla management could have capitalised on that 10 years ago, but did not.
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 9:16 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
>
> > Having a lot of experience with all 3 connectors and being an Electrical
> > Engineer, I have to say Tesla's connector is superior to CCS or CHAdeMO.
> > It's more rugged, cheaper to manufacture, and uses less space and
> > materials.   If Tesla had "opened" its standard before CCS was ratified,
> > then maybe they would have had a chance at being a standard.
> >
> > Too little too late.  Now Tesla is going to have to add the clunky CCS
> > connectors to its network at considerable expense.
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 7:09 PM John Lussmyer via EV 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 12/15/2022 6:12 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> > > > On 15 Dec 2022 at 11:23, Evan Tuer via EV wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I know that they are trying to get the Tesla plug legislated as the US
> > > >> standard but that's inevitably going to fail and seems rather bad
> > faith.
> > > > Oh great.  That's much like what GM did with the EV1 inductive paddle.
> > > What
> > > > a dead end that was.
> > > The one thing is that the Tesla plug can handle more current, and is
> > > easier for the end user.
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Evan Tuer via EV]

I fully agree.  Even the "Euro" Tesla high power connector would have been
preferable to CCS combo-2.  The engineers did a great job on both.
Tesla management could have capitalised on that 10 years ago, but did not.


On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 9:16 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:

> Having a lot of experience with all 3 connectors and being an Electrical
> Engineer, I have to say Tesla's connector is superior to CCS or CHAdeMO.
> It's more rugged, cheaper to manufacture, and uses less space and
> materials.   If Tesla had "opened" its standard before CCS was ratified,
> then maybe they would have had a chance at being a standard.
>
> Too little too late.  Now Tesla is going to have to add the clunky CCS
> connectors to its network at considerable expense.
>
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 7:09 PM John Lussmyer via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > On 12/15/2022 6:12 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> > > On 15 Dec 2022 at 11:23, Evan Tuer via EV wrote:
> > >
> > >> I know that they are trying to get the Tesla plug legislated as the US
> > >> standard but that's inevitably going to fail and seems rather bad
> faith.
> > > Oh great.  That's much like what GM did with the EV1 inductive paddle.
> > What
> > > a dead end that was.
> > The one thing is that the Tesla plug can handle more current, and is
> > easier for the end user.
> > ___
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> >
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Having a lot of experience with all 3 connectors and being an Electrical
Engineer, I have to say Tesla's connector is superior to CCS or CHAdeMO.
It's more rugged, cheaper to manufacture, and uses less space and
materials.   If Tesla had "opened" its standard before CCS was ratified,
then maybe they would have had a chance at being a standard.

Too little too late.  Now Tesla is going to have to add the clunky CCS
connectors to its network at considerable expense.

On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 7:09 PM John Lussmyer via EV 
wrote:

> On 12/15/2022 6:12 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> > On 15 Dec 2022 at 11:23, Evan Tuer via EV wrote:
> >
> >> I know that they are trying to get the Tesla plug legislated as the US
> >> standard but that's inevitably going to fail and seems rather bad faith.
> > Oh great.  That's much like what GM did with the EV1 inductive paddle.
> What
> > a dead end that was.
> The one thing is that the Tesla plug can handle more current, and is
> easier for the end user.
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 12/15/2022 6:12 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

On 15 Dec 2022 at 11:23, Evan Tuer via EV wrote:


I know that they are trying to get the Tesla plug legislated as the US
standard but that's inevitably going to fail and seems rather bad faith.

Oh great.  That's much like what GM did with the EV1 inductive paddle.  What
a dead end that was.
The one thing is that the Tesla plug can handle more current, and is 
easier for the end user.

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 15 Dec 2022 at 11:23, Evan Tuer via EV wrote:

> I know that they are trying to get the Tesla plug legislated as the US
> standard but that's inevitably going to fail and seems rather bad faith.

Oh great.  That's much like what GM did with the EV1 inductive paddle.  What 
a dead end that was.  

Musk can shove his bloody charging plug somewhere painful.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 A great many people think they are thinking when they are 
 really rearranging their prejudices.  

-- Edward R Murrow 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[Evan Tuer via EV]

I'm sure most will know this but in Europe, and maybe some other parts of
the world, the V2 superchargers all have CCS connectors as well as Tesla's
"adapted" Type 2 plug (that's different from the US Tesla plug).
The V3 superchargers (and all Teslas since I think 2019) have gone CCS
only.  Older cars (like mine) can be upgraded to work with CCS, which
involves a new charging interface module, and then a fairly compact adaptor.
Some of the CCS facilities can be used by non-Tesla cars, via an app.  Yes,
the charging port locations don't match anything else and the cables are
short, so this can cause chaotic parking.

So this shows it's doable, and my guess is that even US Tesla, which I
understand is dominant in terms of charger provision right now will have to
come around to what everyone else is using eventually.
I know that they are trying to get the Tesla plug legislated as the US
standard but that's inevitably going to fail and seems rather bad faith.



On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 11:49 AM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:

> There are a lot of older V1/V2 stations still out there, which they were
> replacing with V3 (250kW), now they are rolling out V4 which is supposedly
> capable of CCS.  Maybe this is what they are calling a "magic dock".
>
>
> https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-to-build-the-world-s-biggest-CCS-compatible-Supercharger-locations-with-Magic-Docks.649468.0.html
> Could also be Arizona:
>
> https://electrek.co/2022/09/12/tesla-supercharger-v4-station-megapack-solar-glimpse-future/
>
> I would imagine the pedestal design will be different than what those
> articles show, because they will probably need a user interface for CCS
> customers.
>
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 3:58 AM  wrote:
>
> > Thanks Phil.
> >
> >
> >
> > I haven't seen any here, just wondering the timeline…
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Have a renewable energy day,
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark E. Hanson
> >
> > 184 Vista Lane
> >
> > Fincastle, VA 24090
> >
> > 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
> >
> > REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
> >
> > Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
> >
> > *UL* Certified PV Installer
> >
> > My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
> >
> > REEVA Demo: http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
> >
> > Fincastle Solar Weather Station
> > <
> https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd8975b8d/signature
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* (-Phil-)
> > *Sent:* Monday, December 12, 2022 5:29 PM
> > *To:* Mark Hanson 
> > *Subject:* Re: Tesla accepting CCS
> >
> >
> >
> > They have announced they are going to do it.   Yeah, I have no idea about
> > their timeline.  In Europe, they are much farther ahead.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 1:26 PM Mark Hanson 
> > wrote:
> >
> > Hi Phil
> > Is Tesla actually modifying their superchargers to accept CCS?  That may
> > take a long time.
> > Best regards
> > Mark
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla accepting CCS

[(-Phil-) via EV]

There are a lot of older V1/V2 stations still out there, which they were
replacing with V3 (250kW), now they are rolling out V4 which is supposedly
capable of CCS.  Maybe this is what they are calling a "magic dock".

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-to-build-the-world-s-biggest-CCS-compatible-Supercharger-locations-with-Magic-Docks.649468.0.html
Could also be Arizona:
https://electrek.co/2022/09/12/tesla-supercharger-v4-station-megapack-solar-glimpse-future/

I would imagine the pedestal design will be different than what those
articles show, because they will probably need a user interface for CCS
customers.

On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 3:58 AM  wrote:

> Thanks Phil.
>
>
>
> I haven't seen any here, just wondering the timeline…
>
>
>
>
>
> Have a renewable energy day,
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Mark E. Hanson
>
> 184 Vista Lane
>
> Fincastle, VA 24090
>
> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
>
> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
>
> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
>
> *UL* Certified PV Installer
>
> My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
>
> REEVA Demo: http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
>
> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* (-Phil-)
> *Sent:* Monday, December 12, 2022 5:29 PM
> *To:* Mark Hanson 
> *Subject:* Re: Tesla accepting CCS
>
>
>
> They have announced they are going to do it.   Yeah, I have no idea about
> their timeline.  In Europe, they are much farther ahead.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 1:26 PM Mark Hanson 
> wrote:
>
> Hi Phil
> Is Tesla actually modifying their superchargers to accept CCS?  That may
> take a long time.
> Best regards
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
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