Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 142, Issue 15

[Mark Laity-Snyder via EV]

Thanks all. 

David, 
I am not a lease guy. I want to pay for it up front which is why the low price 
range.  
Mark

> On Aug 21, 2024, at 3:01 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Used EVs (Lee Hart)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2024 21:28:34 +
> From: Lee Hart 
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Used EVs
> Message-ID: <4f70c46d-d67b-c7b9-05fd-c522f3899...@earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> It's also worth looking for off-lease EVs being sold by the big car rental 
> companies. A guy in Minneapolis/St. Paul just purchased a 2022 Polestar for 
> $10,000.
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> But it *does* require attention to detail! -- Lee Hart
> --
> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
> 
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> End of EV Digest, Vol 142, Issue 15
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Re: [EVDL] EV efficiency argument.

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 26 Jul 2024 at 12:33, paul dove via EV wrote:

> I doubt we have any congressman that understand physics.

As Upton Sinclair once said, "It is difficult to get a man to understand 
something when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 I haven't been able to get close to American friends. It's 
 so money-oriented. In France, we're all about having lunch 
 and dinner. 

-- Charlotte Gainsbourg 
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] EV efficiency argument.

[paul dove via EV]

Most EVSE and cars already have that option 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, July 26, 2024, 9:23 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:

Stupid arguments on both sides, but it did get me thinking..

Since most of the time the car knows what time it is, why not have a software 
option to prioritize the onboard chargers to charge during daylight hours to 
use a greater percentage of solar?    When you have a lot of unused range 
anyway, you don't need to keep topping off the car during the night..you can 
just delay until the sun comes up.    

Seems a relatively simple software change that could have pretty big power 
considerations.

    On Friday, July 26, 2024, 5:56:43 AM PDT, paul dove via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  I doubt we have any congressman that understand physics.
    On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 07:01:17 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 

EV efficiency loop argument from pro EV Buttigieg. 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jML8xzgD3jw

Best regards Mark
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Re: [EVDL] EV efficiency argument.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

It would be really simple to control an EVSE to track the amps the PV
system is generating.  Any EVSE with wifi hardware already in there could
do this with just a software update.  Any EV with telematics could also
have software installed to do this, no extra hardware needed.   The largest
issue is that most people are not home during the day, except maybe on
weekends, so it would be of limited use.

On Fri, Jul 26, 2024 at 1:37 PM Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
wrote:

> Interesting.My PV has a huge surge around midday, but tapers off
> dramatically.   I would think youwould want to capitalize on this to level
> it out.   (even fancier would be to know the weather)   So
> an algorithm would be something like:  Estimate time to charge.
> Calculate time to start centering around noon.
>
> I'm guessing this would be particularly useful in California.
>
> I looked a little and tried to find this, but didn't see anything as you
> describe.
> Can you send some link or something?
>
>
> On Friday, July 26, 2024, 9:54:44 AM PDT, paul dove <
> dov...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>  Most EVSE and cars already have that option
>
>
> Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Friday, July 26, 2024, 9:23 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
> Stupid arguments on both sides, but it did get me thinking..
>
> Since most of the time the car knows what time it is, why not have a
> software option to prioritize the onboard chargers to charge during
> daylight hours to use a greater percentage of solar?When you have a lot
> of unused range anyway, you don't need to keep topping off the car during
> the night..you can just delay until the sun comes up.
>
> Seems a relatively simple software change that could have pretty big power
> considerations.
>
> On Friday, July 26, 2024, 5:56:43 AM PDT, paul dove via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>   I doubt we have any congressman that understand physics.
> On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 07:01:17 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>
> 
> EV efficiency loop argument from pro EV Buttigieg.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jML8xzgD3jw
>
> Best regards Mark
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Re: [EVDL] EV efficiency argument.

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

I'm more thinking about the big picture where "everyone's PV" is creating a big 
surge on the utility and selective charging could flatten out that surge.   

Good point about most people being at work.    Good argument for having some 
sort of incentive to provide work charging.
Anyway, sure about the limited use, but honestly seems like a pretty simple 
software mod and worth doing if you have lots of capacity to spare anyway and 
missing a charge or even the last 20% of a charge wouldn't be a huge deal.   
Not as good or fancy as telematics, but hey, it's dirt simple too as it's only 
software.

 

On Friday, July 26, 2024, 1:51:39 PM PDT, (-Phil-)  
wrote:  
 
 It would be really simple to control an EVSE to track the amps the PV system 
is generating.  Any EVSE with wifi hardware already in there could do this with 
just a software update.  Any EV with telematics could also have software 
installed to do this, no extra hardware needed.   The largest issue is that 
most people are not home during the day, except maybe on weekends, so it would 
be of limited use.

On Fri, Jul 26, 2024 at 1:37 PM Lawrence Winiarski via EV  
wrote:

Interesting.    My PV has a huge surge around midday, but tapers off 
dramatically.   I would think youwould want to capitalize on this to level it 
out.   (even fancier would be to know the weather)   So 
an algorithm would be something like:  Estimate time to charge.   Calculate 
time to start centering around noon.

I'm guessing this would be particularly useful in California.

I looked a little and tried to find this, but didn't see anything as you 
describe.
Can you send some link or something?


    On Friday, July 26, 2024, 9:54:44 AM PDT, paul dove  
wrote:  

 Most EVSE and cars already have that option 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, July 26, 2024, 9:23 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:

Stupid arguments on both sides, but it did get me thinking..

Since most of the time the car knows what time it is, why not have a software 
option to prioritize the onboard chargers to charge during daylight hours to 
use a greater percentage of solar?    When you have a lot of unused range 
anyway, you don't need to keep topping off the car during the night..you can 
just delay until the sun comes up.    

Seems a relatively simple software change that could have pretty big power 
considerations.

    On Friday, July 26, 2024, 5:56:43 AM PDT, paul dove via EV 
 wrote:  

  I doubt we have any congressman that understand physics.
    On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 07:01:17 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV 
 wrote:  



EV efficiency loop argument from pro EV Buttigieg. 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jML8xzgD3jw

Best regards Mark
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Re: [EVDL] EV efficiency argument.

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Interesting.    My PV has a huge surge around midday, but tapers off 
dramatically.   I would think youwould want to capitalize on this to level it 
out.   (even fancier would be to know the weather)   So 
an algorithm would be something like:  Estimate time to charge.   Calculate 
time to start centering around noon.

I'm guessing this would be particularly useful in California.

I looked a little and tried to find this, but didn't see anything as you 
describe.
Can you send some link or something?
 

On Friday, July 26, 2024, 9:54:44 AM PDT, paul dove  
wrote:  
 
 Most EVSE and cars already have that option 


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, July 26, 2024, 9:23 AM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
 wrote:

Stupid arguments on both sides, but it did get me thinking..

Since most of the time the car knows what time it is, why not have a software 
option to prioritize the onboard chargers to charge during daylight hours to 
use a greater percentage of solar?    When you have a lot of unused range 
anyway, you don't need to keep topping off the car during the night..you can 
just delay until the sun comes up.    

Seems a relatively simple software change that could have pretty big power 
considerations.

    On Friday, July 26, 2024, 5:56:43 AM PDT, paul dove via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  I doubt we have any congressman that understand physics.
    On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 07:01:17 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 

EV efficiency loop argument from pro EV Buttigieg. 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jML8xzgD3jw

Best regards Mark
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Re: [EVDL] EV efficiency argument.

[Lee Hart via EV]

> Stupid arguments on both sides...

Indeed, both sides danced around the key points.

ICEs get *all* of their fuel from fossil fuels. EVs only get about 60% of their 
fuel from fossil fuels (current percentage in the US).

Electric generating plants are about twice as efficient as ICE engines. Even if 
you assume that 100% of EV charging energy came from fossil fuels, the same 
amount of energy produces half the CO2 and pollution.

Electric transmission line losses are minimal -- only about 5%.

EVs are far more efficient in using their fuel energy. That's why the MPGe (MPG 
equivalent) for EVs is 3-4 times better than ICEs.

So EVs use less energy, to go farther, and produce less pollution.

--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
But it *does* require attention to detail! -- Lee Hart
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
-Original Message-
From: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Sent: Jul 26, 2024 9:23 AM
To: Electric List 
Cc: Lawrence Winiarski 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV efficiency argument.

Since most of the time the car knows what time it is, why not have a software 
option to prioritize the onboard chargers to charge during daylight hours to 
use a greater percentage of solar?When you have a lot of unused range 
anyway, you don't need to keep topping off the car during the night..you can 
just delay until the sun comes up.   

Seems a relatively simple software change that could have pretty big power 
considerations.

On Friday, July 26, 2024, 5:56:43 AM PDT, paul dove via EV wrote:

I doubt we have any congressman that understand physics.
On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 07:01:17 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV wrote: 



EV efficiency loop argument from pro EV Buttigieg.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jML8xzgD3jw

Best regards Mark
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Re: [EVDL] EV efficiency argument.

[Willie McKemie via EV]

I believe many EVSEs already offer that feature.

On Fri, Jul 26, 2024, 9:23 AM Lawrence Winiarski via EV 
wrote:

> Stupid arguments on both sides, but it did get me thinking..
>
> Since most of the time the car knows what time it is, why not have a
> software option to prioritize the onboard chargers to charge during
> daylight hours to use a greater percentage of solar?When you have a lot
> of unused range anyway, you don't need to keep topping off the car during
> the night..you can just delay until the sun comes up.
>
> Seems a relatively simple software change that could have pretty big power
> considerations.
>
> On Friday, July 26, 2024, 5:56:43 AM PDT, paul dove via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>   I doubt we have any congressman that understand physics.
> On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 07:01:17 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>
> 
> EV efficiency loop argument from pro EV Buttigieg.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jML8xzgD3jw
>
> Best regards Mark
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Re: [EVDL] EV efficiency argument.

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Stupid arguments on both sides, but it did get me thinking..

Since most of the time the car knows what time it is, why not have a software 
option to prioritize the onboard chargers to charge during daylight hours to 
use a greater percentage of solar?    When you have a lot of unused range 
anyway, you don't need to keep topping off the car during the night..you can 
just delay until the sun comes up.    

Seems a relatively simple software change that could have pretty big power 
considerations.

On Friday, July 26, 2024, 5:56:43 AM PDT, paul dove via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  I doubt we have any congressman that understand physics.
    On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 07:01:17 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 

EV efficiency loop argument from pro EV Buttigieg. 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jML8xzgD3jw

Best regards Mark
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Re: [EVDL] EV efficiency argument.

[paul dove via EV]

 I doubt we have any congressman that understand physics.
On Friday, July 26, 2024 at 07:01:17 AM CDT, Mark Hanson via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 

EV efficiency loop argument from pro EV Buttigieg. 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jML8xzgD3jw

Best regards Mark
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[EVDL] EV efficiency argument.

[Mark Hanson via EV]


EV efficiency loop argument from pro EV Buttigieg. 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jML8xzgD3jw

Best regards Mark
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 141, Issue 15

[Tim Humphrey via EV]

> Man, if my name was Lee Hart, I'd be all over that one.


Stay Charged!
Hump

>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: John Lussmyer 
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 20:12:29 -0700
> Subject: [EVDL] Old Rav4 for sale
> Is this one of the ones that has a Tesla drivetrain?
>
> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1525363594720261
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 141, Issue 2

[(-Phil-) via EV]

The alerts will show you both current alerts (fault or warning condition is
still met) as well as the last 100 alerts, and the time/date they
occurred.  It's easy and quick to get into service mode, so if you have any
unusual condition occurring, always go in and take a picture of the alerts!

I'm happy to explain any of them from Tesla-speak to plain English.

Yes, the fuse on the bottom is a good way to determine which generation you
have.   Tesla doesn't make changes on the model-year boundary, so
determination by date-of-manufacture is only a rough estimate.

On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 7:52 AM Ken Olum via EV  wrote:

> Thanks, Phil.
>
>Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2024 14:06:00 -0700
>From: "(-Phil-)" 
>
>There should be some BMS alerts if this is happening.  Just open service
>mode and take a look.  They may not always show to the customer.
>
> Do you mean that by looking for these alerts I could learn there was a
> problem before getting stranded?  Or that if it quits I could learn more
> at the time about why?
>
>It's not a standard occurrence, Tesla has some of the best range and SoC
>estimation algorithms in the industry.   But can show up if the pack
>develops some internal problems which unfortunately is not uncommon in
> the
>Gen 1 packs.  (Gen 2 packs came around 2015 and are much less likely to
>have these issues later in life)
>
> Unfortunately, my 2015 appears to have the Gen 1 pack, or at least there
> is no pyro fuse cover on the bottom of the battery opposite the orange
> vent, which seems to be the definitive test according to
> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/8157651/
>
> Ken
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 141, Issue 2

[Ken Olum via EV]

Thanks, Phil.

   Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2024 14:06:00 -0700
   From: "(-Phil-)" 

   There should be some BMS alerts if this is happening.  Just open service
   mode and take a look.  They may not always show to the customer.

Do you mean that by looking for these alerts I could learn there was a
problem before getting stranded?  Or that if it quits I could learn more
at the time about why?

   It's not a standard occurrence, Tesla has some of the best range and SoC
   estimation algorithms in the industry.   But can show up if the pack
   develops some internal problems which unfortunately is not uncommon in the
   Gen 1 packs.  (Gen 2 packs came around 2015 and are much less likely to
   have these issues later in life)

Unfortunately, my 2015 appears to have the Gen 1 pack, or at least there
is no pyro fuse cover on the bottom of the battery opposite the orange
vent, which seems to be the definitive test according to
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/8157651/

Ken
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 137, Issue 1

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 I came to the conclusion that the file is on my machine. However it is lost. 
Please disregard. If I find the article I will send it, via url. Lawrence 
Rhodes 
On Friday, March 1, 2024 at 01:10:36 PM PST, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org 
 wrote:  
 
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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: [GGEVA] Chart shows energy production from 2000 to today.
      All time high in all sectors. (EV List Lackey)


--

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2024 01:20:32 +0100
From: "EV List Lackey" 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] [GGEVA] Chart shows energy production from 2000 to
    today. All time high in all sectors.
Message-ID: <65e12d60.30277.1c12e...@evpost.drmm.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

On 29 Feb 2024 at 10:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

> You cannot attach images to emails for the mailing list like that.

Please use an open (no signup or login required) image hosting service. 

I've used this one.  It works fine.  No signup or login is required, not 
even to post images.

https://postimages.org/

You can also email the image to me at my offlist address, and I'll post it 
for you on evdl.org. 

Get my address here:

http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

    I am the one with no secrets. They [the Chinese government] 
    have secrets. It is only because they have secrets that they 
    can imagine everyone else having them too.

                                                    -- Ai Weiwei
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 



--

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Re: [EVDL] EV off road racer finishes at King of the Hammers

[Bill Woodcock via EV]

More:

https://electrifynews.com/news/electrify-expo/electrify-showoff/1983-chevy-s10-tesla-swapped-ev-truck-claims-dual-awards/

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=465210782300913

> On Feb 3, 2024, at 07:50, (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
> 
> Here's a pic after they were the first ones to finish in the EV class:
> http://ingineerix.com/pic/?kohev1
> 
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 6:15 PM (-Phil-)  wrote:
> 
>> A friend of mine helped them with that project.
>> 
>> Live map of King of the Hammers:
>> https://cf.yb.tl/koh2024_5#
>> 
>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 5:47 PM Brett Davis via EV 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Truck 2412 powered by a Tesla Model S battery pack and motor coupled to a
>>> traditional 4x4 chassis just finished its lap during the Everyman
>>> Challenge
>>> at the annual King of the Hammers race.  A husband and wife built it in
>>> their garage, with the help of friends.
>>> 
>>> Very cool that they have an EV class.
>>> 
>>> https://kingofthehammers.com/
>>> -- next part --
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-Bill

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Re: [EVDL] EV off road racer finishes at King of the Hammers

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Here's a pic after they were the first ones to finish in the EV class:
http://ingineerix.com/pic/?kohev1

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 6:15 PM (-Phil-)  wrote:

> A friend of mine helped them with that project.
>
> Live map of King of the Hammers:
> https://cf.yb.tl/koh2024_5#
>
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 5:47 PM Brett Davis via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> Truck 2412 powered by a Tesla Model S battery pack and motor coupled to a
>> traditional 4x4 chassis just finished its lap during the Everyman
>> Challenge
>> at the annual King of the Hammers race.  A husband and wife built it in
>> their garage, with the help of friends.
>>
>> Very cool that they have an EV class.
>>
>> https://kingofthehammers.com/
>> -- next part --
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>> >
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Re: [EVDL] EV off road racer finishes at King of the Hammers

[Brett Davis via EV]

That's pretty cool. Any details?  They were getting a lot of love at the
finish line.

Brett

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 7:16 PM (-Phil-)  wrote:

> A friend of mine helped them with that project.
>
> Live map of King of the Hammers:
> https://cf.yb.tl/koh2024_5#
>
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 5:47 PM Brett Davis via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> Truck 2412 powered by a Tesla Model S battery pack and motor coupled to a
>> traditional 4x4 chassis just finished its lap during the Everyman
>> Challenge
>> at the annual King of the Hammers race.  A husband and wife built it in
>> their garage, with the help of friends.
>>
>> Very cool that they have an EV class.
>>
>> https://kingofthehammers.com/
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240202/887b6326/attachment.htm
>> >
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Re: [EVDL] EV off road racer finishes at King of the Hammers

[(-Phil-) via EV]

A friend of mine helped them with that project.

Live map of King of the Hammers:
https://cf.yb.tl/koh2024_5#

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 5:47 PM Brett Davis via EV  wrote:

> Truck 2412 powered by a Tesla Model S battery pack and motor coupled to a
> traditional 4x4 chassis just finished its lap during the Everyman Challenge
> at the annual King of the Hammers race.  A husband and wife built it in
> their garage, with the help of friends.
>
> Very cool that they have an EV class.
>
> https://kingofthehammers.com/
> -- next part --
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> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240202/887b6326/attachment.htm
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Re: [EVDL] EV off road racer finishes at King of the Hammers

[Brett Davis via EV]

Truck 2412 powered by a Tesla Model S battery pack and motor coupled to a
traditional 4x4 chassis just finished its lap during the Everyman Challenge
at the annual King of the Hammers race.  A husband and wife built it in
their garage, with the help of friends.

Very cool that they have an EV class.

https://kingofthehammers.com/
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 135, Issue 10

[Randall Prentice via EV]

I wonder if you have seen :-
Youtube "The EASIEST way to connect used EV packs to grid!" From Dala.
He shows the steps in getting the CHAdeMO 400V and then connecting to inverter.

YT   /watch?v=XHZWGLzT7gg

Regards
Randall

I was reading Otmar's inverter connection to a Tesla-3 and looks like Tesla 
makes it really difficult to run a 1500W 12V inverter from their EVs.  My Bolt 
shows 130A available from its DC-DC converter, just clamp the Harbor Fright 
inverter (have 1500W with 200A inline breaker, short aligator clamps) on the 
battery & the Leaf appears to be rated about 90A, so probably not
enough to run my mini-split at 12A, 120V.   Presently if the power goes out
- I just put another log in my wood stove, but thinking it would be nice to run 
one of my EV's as the 64KWH power source incase the power goes out for awhile.  
I have a Bergey wind turbine on LiFePO4 7KWH batteries, but that would only 
last a few hours running the Pioneer mini-split.  Has anyone done this 
successfully?  The Bolt has to be *on* in neutral or park with the key in to 
keep the DC-DC converter alive.  Would rather not have a Kerosun for backup...

Subject: Model 3 Inverter Power Connection - Otmar's Variety Blog
https: // 
www.cafeelectric.com/blog/2020/06/08/inverter-power-connection-1/


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[EVDL] EV Standards, was: Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs...

[fred via EV]

As a current owner of a non-working Gizmo EV, I can offer that the steering 
appeared to be daunting, but operated in the same manner as an ordinary 
motorcycle and required zero adaptation. I believe the handgrips on my 2003 
unit were fashioned from an F-16 but the buttons operated also in the typical 
motorcycle manner. Turn signals, wiper, horn. Having an accelerator trigger 
with a 5 mm travel meant one should be sensitive with the application of power, 
however.
People found the top hinged door amusing and far too often compared it to the 
Isetta, the steering to a skid-steer.
As an aside, if one wants to own one of the 36 manufactured, I'm open to 
offers. It does appear to be a candidate for Barn Finds, however.

--

Original Message: 1
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 14:02:54 + (UTC)
From: Lawrence Winiarski 

Good point.??? The "Gizmo"? EV steering was 2 levers on the floor,? I guess 
like some trikes.

End of Original Message 1
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Re: [EVDL] EV-Solar: LiFePO4 recommended best batteries ?

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 I just got a quote for two Tesla power walls, about 10kw each. Nickel 
batteries. Not LFP. Supposedly are really 13kw with 20 to 80% algorithm built 
in. My new Y is also nickel. Theory is more power and similar life as well as 
faster charging. 5.85kw solar panels and two batteries for $50k and 17k of tax 
write off. All legal with smart panel but in producing from 2.4 to 8kw will 
lose PG&E 1 to 1 payback.. Never have to worry about power outages though. This 
includes no roof work. We paid $700 last year up from the pandemic $550. Still 
haven't put in a heat pump. Still using space heaters. I could DIY but PG&E 
might notice. Doing it legally will cost use $4k a year vs. $700 and that's 
with space heaters and one Leaf. Now two Teslas and heat pump coming...We will 
use more in my estimation.  Lawrence Rhodes 
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[EVDL] EV-Solar: LiFePO4 recommended best batteries ?

[Mark E. Hanson via EV]

 

Subject: LiFePO4 batteries wanted for Bergey XL-1, Schneider SW2404 wind
backup, 400ah, 24V, 9.6KWH

 

Hi Folks,

 

I just had another Interstate flooded L16 (6V 380ah) battery cell open, no
reads 4V and won't hold charge.  They were installed in a float charge
Bergey XL-1 application, died in 5 years (should last 10+ years).  Put a
7.5V, 6.8A supply on each, watch bubbling and one cell completely dead (no
bubbles-big troubles).  The other 6V batteries cells were evenly
percolating. 

 

So I'm looking for LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) replacements.  Online
about $1600 Renogy etc.  There's DIY cell 4ea per 12V (8 total) Calb or Tsky
like I uesd in conversions.

 

  Sealed Lead nowadays aren't much less (about $1200) due to diesel truck
shipping costs (heavy lead follows diesel prices).

 

If anyone has extra batteries for sale let me know before I order some
online. 24V, 400AH, 9.6KWH desired.

 

 

Have a renewable energy day,

 

Mark

 

Mark E. Hanson

184 Vista Lane

Fincastle, VA 24090

540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell

REEVA: community service RE & EV project club

Website: www.REEVAdiy.org   (See Project Gallery)

UL Certified PV Installer

My RE&EV Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh   

REEVA Demo: http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0 

Fincastle Solar Weather Station
 

 

 

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Re: [EVDL] EV charger placement [bp orders $100 million worth of Tesla EV chargers]

[Cor van de Water via EV]

I believe that FastNed installs super fast DCFC at existing fuel stations
along freeways in The Netherlands and is expanding to Belgium, France, UK
and Germany. I guess exactly with this reason that existing stations
already have the shops, restrooms and sometimes full sit down restaurants.

BTW, "Ned" is short for Nederland, the Dutch spelling for The Netherlands.

High power DCFC stations are also ideal locations to install large energy
storage systems, both to supply (shave) peak loads to allow a smaller grid
connection than the total aggregate charger power, but also to stabilize
grid by their grid interactive and high power interface, as well as
balancing any on-site solar generation and recharging at night/selling at
peak tariff...
Cor.

On Wed, Nov 1, 2023, 5:08 PM EV@TucsonEV via EV  wrote:

>
> Peri Hartman via EV wrote
> > The principal factor is the rate of charge. Currently, that's at least
> > 20 minutes for most cars and possibly an hour or more. You might recall
> my
> recent
> > experience with the Bolt (overall very good) where it took over an hour
> for
> 25% to
> > 85%.
>
> I might have to go to FL to take care of some family business and was
> considering driving my Tesla M3, Standard +. I went to
> ABetterRoutePlanner.com
> and put in the from/to and came up with a 2266 mile trip, total time 41 h
> 46 min
> including 6 hr 59 min charging at 23 superchargers. That's an average of
> 18.2
> minutes per stop, the longest 38 min and the shortest 9 min.
> My average charging stop is under your 20 min and even the longest, 38
> min, of
> which there were only 2, the rest being in the 25 to 13 min time, is way
> under
> your hour or more.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rush Dougherty
> TucsonEV
> 1014 E King St
> Tucson AZ 85719
> 520 240 7493
> www.TucsonEV.com
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV charger placement [bp orders $100 million worth of Tesla EV chargers]

[EV@TucsonEV via EV]

Peri Hartman via EV wrote
> The principal factor is the rate of charge. Currently, that's at least
> 20 minutes for most cars and possibly an hour or more. You might recall my
recent
> experience with the Bolt (overall very good) where it took over an hour for
25% to
> 85%.

I might have to go to FL to take care of some family business and was
considering driving my Tesla M3, Standard +. I went to ABetterRoutePlanner.com
and put in the from/to and came up with a 2266 mile trip, total time 41 h 46 min
including 6 hr 59 min charging at 23 superchargers. That's an average of 18.2
minutes per stop, the longest 38 min and the shortest 9 min.
My average charging stop is under your 20 min and even the longest, 38 min, of
which there were only 2, the rest being in the 25 to 13 min time, is way under
your hour or more.

Best regards,

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV
1014 E King St
Tucson AZ 85719
520 240 7493
www.TucsonEV.com



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Re: [EVDL] EV charger placement [bp orders $100 million worth of Tesla EV chargers]

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

My experiences are about the same.  We usually spend about 25 minutes
but that takes in a stop at a Sheetz Station for use of their
restrooms and fast food.

When we went, we stayed at VRBO's and used their Level 1 sockets.
Each time we brought a 25' heavy gauge extension cord which worked out
in recharging an additional EV.

Level 1 is slow but good enough for recharging for transport;
providing enough range to local sights, restaurants, parks and back.

On Wed, Nov 1, 2023 at 3:10 PM John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
>
> Charge times are already in the low double digits.
> A friend loaned me her Tesla Model Y LR for a 500 mile (each way) trip.
> 2 Fast charge stops on the way down, each around 15 minutes.
> Overnight slow charge at the hotel, then 2 more fast charges on the way
> back.
>
> On 11/1/2023 11:29 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:
> > The other thing that needs to be considered is the changing battery
> > energy densities.  With various reports hinting at 4 to 5 times the
> > energy density of current batteries, ranges of 300 miles could become
> > 1200 to 1500 miles or packs that are 4 to 5 times smaller and with
> > recharge times that are in the low double to single digits. I think
> > the latter will be the norm with EV "touring" options where overnight
> > motel guests can Level 2 or even Level 3 recharge.
> >
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Re: [EVDL] EV charger placement [bp orders $100 million worth of Tesla EV chargers]

[John Lussmyer via EV]

Charge times are already in the low double digits.
A friend loaned me her Tesla Model Y LR for a 500 mile (each way) trip.
2 Fast charge stops on the way down, each around 15 minutes.
Overnight slow charge at the hotel, then 2 more fast charges on the way 
back.


On 11/1/2023 11:29 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV wrote:

The other thing that needs to be considered is the changing battery
energy densities.  With various reports hinting at 4 to 5 times the
energy density of current batteries, ranges of 300 miles could become
1200 to 1500 miles or packs that are 4 to 5 times smaller and with
recharge times that are in the low double to single digits. I think
the latter will be the norm with EV "touring" options where overnight
motel guests can Level 2 or even Level 3 recharge.


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Re: [EVDL] EV charger placement [bp orders $100 million worth of Tesla EV chargers]

[(-Phil-) via EV]

I seriously doubt any mainstream EV will ever be equipped with anywhere
near 1000 mile range packs regardless of technology, it just doesn't make
sense.   If somehow packs were to achieve 4x increase in energy density,
you'd see manufacturers install 4x smaller packs.  It doesn't make sense to
carry around huge excessive energy that's rarely used.  Even with the great
energy density of ICE, you don't see manufacturers adding 50 gallon tanks
to cars.

On Wed, Nov 1, 2023 at 11:31 AM Peter Eckhoff via EV 
wrote:

> The other thing that needs to be considered is the changing battery
> energy densities.  With various reports hinting at 4 to 5 times the
> energy density of current batteries, ranges of 300 miles could become
> 1200 to 1500 miles or packs that are 4 to 5 times smaller and with
> recharge times that are in the low double to single digits. I think
> the latter will be the norm with EV "touring" options where overnight
> motel guests can Level 2 or even Level 3 recharge.
>
> The idea being in that Level 3 chargers are moved to where people will
> be recharging on long trips leaving Level 1 and 2 to home charging.
> We often recharge at a Sheetz gas station that has a fast food
> restaurant and rest room facilities.  By the time we use the rest
> rooms, order and eat a meal, we are about ready to unplug and continue
> on our way.
>
> Just some ideas that may or may not pan out.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 1, 2023 at 2:08 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Peri Hartman wrote:
> > > I'll give my opinion on where EV charges should be located... Chargers
> need
> > > to be located where people can usefully spend some time. That may be
> at the
> > > grocery, a shopping center, a park, highway rest areas, a walkable
> > > neighborhood, a tourist destination, for example.
> >
> > Ah, but it doesn't matter where *we* want them located. What matters is
> where *they* want them located. How are gas stations going to continue to
> make money if we start charging and shopping somewhere other than their
> Food-n-Gas shops?
> >
> > --
> > Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
> >
> > ___
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> >
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Re: [EVDL] EV charger placement [bp orders $100 million worth of Tesla EV chargers]

[Peter Eckhoff via EV]

The other thing that needs to be considered is the changing battery
energy densities.  With various reports hinting at 4 to 5 times the
energy density of current batteries, ranges of 300 miles could become
1200 to 1500 miles or packs that are 4 to 5 times smaller and with
recharge times that are in the low double to single digits. I think
the latter will be the norm with EV "touring" options where overnight
motel guests can Level 2 or even Level 3 recharge.

The idea being in that Level 3 chargers are moved to where people will
be recharging on long trips leaving Level 1 and 2 to home charging.
We often recharge at a Sheetz gas station that has a fast food
restaurant and rest room facilities.  By the time we use the rest
rooms, order and eat a meal, we are about ready to unplug and continue
on our way.

Just some ideas that may or may not pan out.



On Wed, Nov 1, 2023 at 2:08 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>
> Peri Hartman wrote:
> > I'll give my opinion on where EV charges should be located... Chargers need
> > to be located where people can usefully spend some time. That may be at the
> > grocery, a shopping center, a park, highway rest areas, a walkable
> > neighborhood, a tourist destination, for example.
>
> Ah, but it doesn't matter where *we* want them located. What matters is where 
> *they* want them located. How are gas stations going to continue to make 
> money if we start charging and shopping somewhere other than their Food-n-Gas 
> shops?
>
> --
> Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV charger placement [bp orders $100 million worth of Tesla EV chargers]

[Lee Hart via EV]

Peri Hartman wrote:
> I'll give my opinion on where EV charges should be located... Chargers need
> to be located where people can usefully spend some time. That may be at the
> grocery, a shopping center, a park, highway rest areas, a walkable
> neighborhood, a tourist destination, for example.

Ah, but it doesn't matter where *we* want them located. What matters is where 
*they* want them located. How are gas stations going to continue to make money 
if we start charging and shopping somewhere other than their Food-n-Gas shops?

--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com
 
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Re: [EVDL] EV charger placement [bp orders $100 million worth of Tesla EV chargers]

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 1 Nov 2023 at 0:56, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> Instead, chargers need to be located where people can usefully spend 
> some time. That may be at the grocery, a shopping center, a park, 
> highway rest areas, a walkable neighborhood, a tourist destination, for 
> example. Then you can painlessly wait as long as needed for your charge.

Absolutely.  Running with just one example, most travelers will welcome a 
periodic pit stop with food and/or drink.  

The autoroute aires here usually have surprisingly decent restaurants - hey, 
it's France; good food is darn near a legal right.  

A standard French lunch, properly enjoyed, will take abouit 2 hours.  That's 
plenty of time to charge our Renault Zoe's 52kWh battery from 20% to over 
80% at a 22kW AC charging point.  I'm not entirely sure that that's 
coincidence.  :-)

In the 1960s, longtime EV list correspondent Bob Rice worked for Bob 
Aronson's Electric Fuel Propulsion.  Bob wrote here about EFP's Electric Car 
Expressway, with 30kW AC charging at 5 cooperative Holiday Inns along I-94 
between Detroit and Chicago.  Every motel had a restaurant.  Bob said that 
when he drove the route in EFP's Mars II EVs, he never arrived hungry or 
thirsty.  :-)

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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 tell lies to journalists, and then believe what they read.

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Re: [EVDL] EV charger placement [bp orders $100 million worth of Tesla EV chargers]

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I'll give my opinion on where EV charges should be located.

The principal factor is the rate of charge. Currently, that's at least 
20 minutes for most cars and possibly an hour or more. You might recall 
my recent experience with the Bolt (overall very good) where it took 
over an hour for 25% to 85%.


Until we have rates of charge that allow 10 minutes for charging, I 
don't really want to have to wait at a filling station convenience 
store. It only takes about 10 minutes to use the restroom and maybe buy 
something. Why would I want to stay any longer at such a horrid location 
?


Instead, chargers need to be located where people can usefully spend 
some time. That may be at the grocery, a shopping center, a park, 
highway rest areas, a walkable neighborhood, a tourist destination, for 
example. Then you can painlessly wait as long as needed for your charge.


Peri

<< Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "EV List Lackey via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EV List Lackey" 
Sent: 31-Oct-23 17:43:13
Subject: Re: [EVDL] bp orders $100 million worth of Tesla EV chargers


On 31 Oct 2023 at 13:06, EV@TucsonEV via EV wrote:


 Looks like the gassers are going to start sharing their territory with us
 Evers.


I'd rather see them make money on EV charging than continue to fight EVs -
though they may well do both.

Colocating EV charging with filling stations has been going on here for some
time.  I think it makes sense but would be interested in hearing arguments
to the contrary.

In early March 2020 - just before the lockdown - I stopped at a couple of
autoroute aires (service plazas) on my way up to Paris in a rented ICEV.
Both aires had EVs charging across the tarmac from the fuel pumps.

Also, since 2021, Total, a major oil and gas vendor, has been going in for
EV charging in a pretty substantial way.  They're adding fast DC charging to
their autoroute filling stations, and to some others in cities and rural
areas.  The number is now approaching 200 in France alone.  The first
charging points installed were 175kW.  I think I recall reading that the
most recent ones are 350kW.

We haven't needed any of these yet but will probably be glad they're
available when we do - though it's reputed to be some of the nation's most
expensive public EV charging.  For example, a km worth of their charging in
a Zoe EV costs about what a km worth of petrol does in a similar ICEV Clio.


David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
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Re: [EVDL] EV Towing

[Joe Average via EV]

Those little European trailers are clever things. I have a Brenderup 
1205S with the ABS top here in the states.


Great little trailer. Good to 750 kgs I believe. Generally I load it to 
about 750 lbs or less.


Tows good on the highway. Great for moving our bicycles, my tablesaw and 
tools, camping gear, trips to the hardware store.


Has two sets of sides so I can use it as a short trailer, or put on the 
second set of sides and have a 36" high cargo area.


Wish it was a few inches longer and wider. I carry 4x8 sheet goods on 
top of the trailer sides on crossbars I made rather than in the trailer.


Chris in TN

On 10/27/23 08:17, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

On 26 Oct 2023 at 20:29, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:


cultural factors, founded in belief rather than fact. Many people think
a big truck is needed to pull a small 5x8 utility trailer.

Yeah. .Americans are suckers for the ads and hearsay telling them that they
need a 3-ton truck to drive 5 miles to work, so that doesn't surprise me.

Here in rural France I see a lot of utility trailers, almost always hitched
to small, light cars, though so far I haven't noticed any behind EVs.
That's how they move stuff without having to own and drive a gas-guzzling
monster that literally won't fit through some of these narrow medieval
alleyways.

My neighbor is a landscaper.  I often see his trailer loaded with brush on
the way to the recycling center.  He pulls it with a 1999 Citroen Saxo
supermini.  Never a problem, he says.

You should see the hitches used in Europe.  They're different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tow_ball_50mm.png

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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  Hope inspires and comforts, but it's fear and rage that get voters
  to the polls.

   -- Found on the net

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Re: [EVDL] EV Towing

[Joe Average via EV]

Europe restricts vehicle speeds while towing. 50 mph in the UK when 
towing a caravan for example.


Here in the states very few towing restrictions in place or enforced.

I have been passed a few times by giant pickups towing a whole house at 
75 mph.


Seems to me that all trailers and RVs ought to be restricted to ~60-65 mph.

I remember one trip we made to the eastern part of our state one year 
and were passed by two bus chassis diesel pusher RVs towing Jeeps 
running north of 75 mph chased by a pickup also matching their speeds 
while towing a 5th wheel trailer.


I've towed some ridiculous stuff with our little 1st gen CRV but my tow 
speeds are ~40 mph b/c the brakes aren't HD enough. I've moved whole 
vehicles (VW van, 4 cylinder cars) on tow dollies across town. Basically 
anything that fit my 2" hitch ball - but didn't weigh much. Big trailers 
but empty or lightly loaded - also at low speeds. Capable of emergency 
stopping. Didn't phase the driveline. Engine lasted to 300K, original 
clutch too. Oil pump failed. Replaced with JDM sourced junkyard engine. 
Still driving it daily.


C

On 10/26/23 20:29, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023, 19:23 Jay Summet via EV  wrote:


I still don't understand why the Tesla-3 says no towing and the Y does

with

the *same* drive train.


1. Different frame.


Doubtful. Same car is tow rated in EU. Other manufacturers do the same
thing with EU cars vs US cars of the same model, like Corollas.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-introduces-model-3-tow-hitch-europe/



2. So they can justify charging more for the Y.


This.

Also:
3. cultural factors, founded in belief rather than fact. Many people think
a big truck is needed to pull a small 5x8 utility trailer.

Yet actually cars CAN be setup to handle big trailers. Here's an example of
a Model 3 easily pulling a 28' Airstream. Last year I saw the same
Airstream being pulled behind a Model S. Owner has been cross country with
this setup.

Video 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX5lzqzZ2Do

Video 2: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jB-olOdQVik
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Re: [EVDL] EV Towing

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 26 Oct 2023 at 20:29, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

> cultural factors, founded in belief rather than fact. Many people think
> a big truck is needed to pull a small 5x8 utility trailer.

Yeah. .Americans are suckers for the ads and hearsay telling them that they 
need a 3-ton truck to drive 5 miles to work, so that doesn't surprise me.

Here in rural France I see a lot of utility trailers, almost always hitched 
to small, light cars, though so far I haven't noticed any behind EVs.  
That's how they move stuff without having to own and drive a gas-guzzling 
monster that literally won't fit through some of these narrow medieval 
alleyways.

My neighbor is a landscaper.  I often see his trailer loaded with brush on 
the way to the recycling center.  He pulls it with a 1999 Citroen Saxo 
supermini.  Never a problem, he says.

You should see the hitches used in Europe.  They're different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tow_ball_50mm.png

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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 Hope inspires and comforts, but it's fear and rage that get voters 
 to the polls.

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Re: [EVDL] EV Towing

[(-Phil-) via EV]

FYI, Tesla allowed towing on the Model 3 in EU spec vehicles.   They even
had a controller for the lights so you don't need to tap.

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023 at 6:30 PM Haudy Kazemi via EV 
wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 26, 2023, 19:23 Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>
> >
> > > I still don't understand why the Tesla-3 says no towing and the Y does
> > with
> > > the *same* drive train.
> > >
> >
> > 1. Different frame.
> >
>
> Doubtful. Same car is tow rated in EU. Other manufacturers do the same
> thing with EU cars vs US cars of the same model, like Corollas.
>
> https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-introduces-model-3-tow-hitch-europe/
>
>
> > 2. So they can justify charging more for the Y.
> >
>
> This.
>
> Also:
> 3. cultural factors, founded in belief rather than fact. Many people think
> a big truck is needed to pull a small 5x8 utility trailer.
>
> Yet actually cars CAN be setup to handle big trailers. Here's an example of
> a Model 3 easily pulling a 28' Airstream. Last year I saw the same
> Airstream being pulled behind a Model S. Owner has been cross country with
> this setup.
>
> Video 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX5lzqzZ2Do
>
> Video 2: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jB-olOdQVik
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Re: [EVDL] EV Towing

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2023, 19:23 Jay Summet via EV  wrote:

>
> > I still don't understand why the Tesla-3 says no towing and the Y does
> with
> > the *same* drive train.
> >
>
> 1. Different frame.
>

Doubtful. Same car is tow rated in EU. Other manufacturers do the same
thing with EU cars vs US cars of the same model, like Corollas.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-introduces-model-3-tow-hitch-europe/


> 2. So they can justify charging more for the Y.
>

This.

Also:
3. cultural factors, founded in belief rather than fact. Many people think
a big truck is needed to pull a small 5x8 utility trailer.

Yet actually cars CAN be setup to handle big trailers. Here's an example of
a Model 3 easily pulling a 28' Airstream. Last year I saw the same
Airstream being pulled behind a Model S. Owner has been cross country with
this setup.

Video 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX5lzqzZ2Do

Video 2: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jB-olOdQVik
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Re: [EVDL] EV Towing

[Jay Summet via EV]

I still don't understand why the Tesla-3 says no towing and the Y does with
the *same* drive train.



1. Different frame.

2. So they can justify charging more for the Y.

Jay
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[EVDL] EV Towing

[Mark E. Hanson via EV]

Hi Folks,

I know etrailers.com sells hitches for *anything* but a lawyer told me if
you get in an accident while towing and the manual says *no towing* (like
the Tesla Model 3 does), the judge will throw the book at you.  That's why I
picked the Tesla Model Y that's *rated* for 3500 pounds towing and put the
etrailer.com hitch on.  Also had to dig into the low-current tiny #22 wiring
to tap off and change the 1157 bulbs on the trailer to LED lights.

I do have a Bolt with a hitch on it (also says no towing) but have for light
5x8 trailer emergencies (not the boat).  But it is a risk.

I still don't understand why the Tesla-3 says no towing and the Y does with
the *same* drive train.

Best Regards, Mark 

-Original Message-
From: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Sent: Oct 26, 2023 11:37 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: (-Phil-) 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla-Y KWH Efficiency
Wrote;
Tesla's PMSRM motor and SiCFET inverter tech is also pretty amazing for
efficiency.

FYI: I have a 2018 Model 3 and I tow all the time with no issues. Several
companies make a bolt-on hitch.

***

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Re: [EVDL] EV Infrastructure insights

[Rod Hower via EV]

 That's pretty cool Rush!  Thanks for posting!
On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 05:46:46 PM EDT, EV@TucsonEV via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 https://www.here.com/ev-index-2023

 

Here's an interesting study that compares EV charging infrastructure in US and
Europe. And also breaks down the infrastructure ranking state by state which
show Charging points per road length, avg. charger power, EV market share 2022
and EV fleet per charging point. 

 

Best regards,

 

Rush Dougherty

TucsonEV

www.TucsonEV.com  

 

 

 

 

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[EVDL] EV Infrastructure insights

[EV@TucsonEV via EV]

https://www.here.com/ev-index-2023

 

Here's an interesting study that compares EV charging infrastructure in US and
Europe. And also breaks down the infrastructure ranking state by state which
show Charging points per road length, avg. charger power, EV market share 2022
and EV fleet per charging point. 

 

Best regards,

 

Rush Dougherty

TucsonEV

www.TucsonEV.com  

 

 

 

 

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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 131, Issue 21

[Mark Laity-Snyder via EV]

 That is a youtube channel I really don't ever want to be famous on. I am glad 
you are OK.  Did your insurance cover the damage? People can be really bad.  I 
bet there are people acting crappy behind the wheel many times a day.  I 
recently heard a story about someone who was followed by someone for MANY 
blocks who was swerving and acting unsafely so THEY could tell this person that 
they thought they were acting unsafe.  Sounds like your guy.  
Why would anyone decide to go vigilante justice and break MORE laws trying to 
get someone who might have done something even slightly questionable to realize 
their mistake?    Seems like a problem of an eye for an eye which results in 
everyone being blind. 
#18   https://youtu.be/Mjkgu51N_64?si=ip6g8qAq8pJ1PeCA My 15 seconds of fame. 
Lawrence Rhodes?

  
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Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed (Alan Arrison)

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 16 Sep 2023 at 21:36, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

> 100 miles on 1kWh? What are you smoking?
> 
> I'm pretty sure even an electric bicycle can't do that.

Depends on the bike, I guess, but even our cheap "Makadam" brand department 
store E-bike will do a real-world 40km on a factory-rated 313wh battery - 
about 79 miles per kwh.  That's with pedaling though. 

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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 think of saying except in a desperate case. It's like saying 
 "My mother, drunk or sober."

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Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed (Alan Arrison)

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 

100 miles on 1kWh? What are you smoking?

I'm pretty sure even an electric bicycle can't do that.

Al
 You would be mistaken. Stella Era did 1,200 miles over two days using a 
1,250kwh battery and a 1.25 kw solar panel. That's pretty close. Lawrence 
Rhodes.  
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[EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 Nothing beats the efficiency of a properly designed solar vehicle that can 
collect energy anytime the sun shines. With a 12.5 kwh battery, 5 seats. 1.25 
kw solar panel .15 coefficient of drag, 45 mph speed and a weight of 850 pounds 
the last interation of the Stella (practical solar vehicle) solar racer of the 
Cruiser Class in the World Solar Challenge achieved 1,200 miles on one charge. 
That's the record in my opinion. solarteameindhoven.nl not a rolling pingpong 
table. Lawrence Rhodes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella_(solar_vehicles)
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Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed

[paul dove via EV]

 Or carry spare batteries.
On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 08:00:20 PM CDT, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
> 100 miles on 1kWh? What are you smoking?
> 
> I'm pretty sure even an electric bicycle can't do that.

No; think about it. A bicycle goes about 15 mph. 100 miles / 15 mph 
takes 6.66 hours. 1 KWH is 150 watts for 6.66 hours. Lots of Ebikes have 
200 watt motors. With hard tires and good roads, an Ebike could easily 
do it.

The only challenge is that no normal Ebike has a battery pack that big. 
But you could easily add a battery that big.

Lee
-- 
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily
available, they will create their own problems. -- Scott Adams
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed

[Lee Hart via EV]

Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

100 miles on 1kWh? What are you smoking?

I'm pretty sure even an electric bicycle can't do that.


No; think about it. A bicycle goes about 15 mph. 100 miles / 15 mph 
takes 6.66 hours. 1 KWH is 150 watts for 6.66 hours. Lots of Ebikes have 
200 watt motors. With hard tires and good roads, an Ebike could easily 
do it.


The only challenge is that no normal Ebike has a battery pack that big. 
But you could easily add a battery that big.


Lee
--
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily
available, they will create their own problems. -- Scott Adams
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 15 Sep 2023 at 9:40, George E Swartz via EV wrote:

> I think Bob Aronson's Mars electric car with 2000 pounds of lead acid
> batteries did 144 miles under ideal conditions in the late 1960's

The Mars II's advertised range was 120 miles with a 30kwh battery weighing 
about 1900lb.  

Bob Rice, a longtime member of this list until his death in 2011, worked for 
Aronson.  He reported that he routinely managed 95 miles at 50-55mph with a 
Mars II.

http://evdl.org/pages/renault_evs.html

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

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The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in 
common: they don't alter their views to fit the facts. They 
alter the facts to fit their views.  This can be uncomfortable 
if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering.

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Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed

[Alan Arrison via EV]

100 miles on 1kWh? What are you smoking?

I'm pretty sure even an electric bicycle can't do that.

Al

On 9/14/2023 7:20 PM, David Heacock via EV wrote:

Yes I know this is a very controlled situation and is not a vehicle that would 
be purchased by the public but taking a look at the numbers and doing some 
comparison with say the Aptera one might think the concept is promising.  
Efficiency is a key component, same general shape, drag coefficient of 0.159 
(Aptera computer modeling at 0.13), 103.2 miles / kWh (Aptera estimated at only 
10 miles/kWh), Hyundai Ioniq 6 and Lucid Air at 4.2 miles/kWh in production.  
You would think that OEMs could come up with something that gets better than 5 
miles/kWh and is reasonably priced?
This EV smashed the world record for distance on a single charge


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Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed

[Lee Hart via EV]

EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

I managed to find the article...  Top speed 42 km/h, 
Weight 170kg

For comparison, in 1987 the GM Sunraycer won the World Solar Challenge - all
energy from the sun... Top speed 109 km/h, Weight 177 kg.

These - and many others over the decades - are literal academic exercises.
Maybe an obscenely wealthy person could commission one like them as a toy.
Most of us couldn't, and probably wouldn't want to anyway.  Cool as they
are, they're not really very safe or practical for public roads.


I wouldn't go quite that far. They are experiments, to explore the 
limits of the possible.


An electric bicycle is a practical example of a hyper efficient vehicle. 
They aren't as safe as an armored SUV tank; yet millions of them are on 
the roads every day.



Wouldn't it be great if the automakers hired some of these students and put
them to work applying some of their efficiency optimizations to production
EVs?

Dream on, I guess 


Actually, GM *did* go to Paul MacReady of Aerovironment to design the 
"Impact" EV for them, and they did turn it into the production EV-1.


Lee

--
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily
available, they will create their own problems. -- Scott Adams
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed

[George E Swartz via EV]

I think Bob Aronson's Mars electric car with 2000 pounds of lead acid
batteries did 144 miles under ideal conditions in the late 1960's











> I managed to find the article.
>
> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/09/1600-miles-on-a-single-charge-student-
> built-ev-sets-new-world-record/
>
> shortcut: https://v.gd/X9prd1
>
> Top speed 42 km/h
> Weight 170kg
>
> For comparison, in 1987 the GM Sunraycer won the World Solar Challenge -
> all
> energy from the sun - with an average speed of 41.6mph.
>
> Top speed 109 km/h
> Weight 177 kg
>
> These - and many others over the decades - are literal academic exercises.
> Maybe an obscenely wealthy person could commission one like them as a toy.
> Most of us couldn't, and probably wouldn't want to anyway.  Cool as they
> are, they're not really very safe or practical for public roads.
>
> Wouldn't it be great if the automakers hired some of these students and
> put
> them to work applying some of their efficiency optimizations to production
> EVs?
>
> Dream on, I guess 
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  Any time you see a group with the word liberty, freedom, or truth
>  in its name, you can be sure that it stands for the exact opposite.
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
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> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>
>


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Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed

[EV List Lackey via EV]

I managed to find the article.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/09/1600-miles-on-a-single-charge-student-
built-ev-sets-new-world-record/

shortcut: https://v.gd/X9prd1

Top speed 42 km/h
Weight 170kg

For comparison, in 1987 the GM Sunraycer won the World Solar Challenge - all 
energy from the sun - with an average speed of 41.6mph.  

Top speed 109 km/h
Weight 177 kg

These - and many others over the decades - are literal academic exercises. 
Maybe an obscenely wealthy person could commission one like them as a toy. 
Most of us couldn't, and probably wouldn't want to anyway.  Cool as they 
are, they're not really very safe or practical for public roads.

Wouldn't it be great if the automakers hired some of these students and put 
them to work applying some of their efficiency optimizations to production 
EVs?  

Dream on, I guess 

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 Any time you see a group with the word liberty, freedom, or truth 
 in its name, you can be sure that it stands for the exact opposite. 

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Assuming this team drove their car continuously (24h) for those 6 days
in the smooth concrete-floored hangar, then they did an average 11 MPH
which means that fact alone got them 25 times lower wind drag than at
55 MPH. They also likely used extremely narrow and high pressure
tires, again slashing rolling resistance to a tiny fraction - a
situation close to as if they would be rolling steel wheels on rails.
The reason for using GaN transistors in the controller is another
efficiency optimization, even though GaN is still finicky and not as
reliable as SiC and lastly the size, weight and extreme streamline
show that this is an academic achievement...
I do still like to occasionally hyper-mile my 10 year old Model S and
see the mi/kwh top 5 when staying at or slightly below 55MPH on a long
commute at a quiet road.
Cor.
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[EVDL] EV Distance Record Smashed

[David Heacock via EV]

Yes I know this is a very controlled situation and is not a vehicle that would 
be purchased by the public but taking a look at the numbers and doing some 
comparison with say the Aptera one might think the concept is promising.  
Efficiency is a key component, same general shape, drag coefficient of 0.159 
(Aptera computer modeling at 0.13), 103.2 miles / kWh (Aptera estimated at only 
10 miles/kWh), Hyundai Ioniq 6 and Lucid Air at 4.2 miles/kWh in production.  
You would think that OEMs could come up with something that gets better than 5 
miles/kWh and is reasonably priced? 
This EV smashed the world record for distance on a single charge


| 
| 
| 
|  |  |

 |

 |
| 
|  | 
This EV smashed the world record for distance on a single charge

At 103 miles/kWh, the car is 25 times more efficient than any EV on sale.
 |

 |

 |



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Re: [EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing

[Lee Hart via EV]

Collin Kidder via EV  wrote:

my biggest problem with things like the Aptera is really safety. All
other things being equal, safety in a crash comes down to energy transfer.
And, energy is a function of mass and speed.


That's true, but all things are *not* equal. Fatality rates are a 
function not only of vehicle weight; but also construction, driver age, 
gender, skill level, the speed being driven, and more.


An 2020 IIHS report on actual fatality rates found that on average, 
heavier vehicles were safer. But the 20 safest vehicles included the VW 
Golf, Nissan Leaf, and Mitsubishi Outlander; all relatively small cars.


And the 20 vehicles with the highest fatality rates included the popular 
large pickups (Dodge RAM etc.)


The segment with the lowest fatality rates are neither the smallest nor 
the largest vehicles; they are mid-size sedans (like the Tesla) and 
(surprisingly) minivans.


Lee

--
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily
available, they will create their own problems. -- Scott Adams
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing

[Rod Hower via EV]

 With that logic it's time to start commuting in a cement truck!  No thanks, 
I'll continue driving my 2014 Chevy Volt and 2000 Honda Insight and tempt 
fate!.  I see a guy riding an electric scooter almost everyday on a main rode 
on the way to work with a backpack.  Not sure how long he'll last, winter is 
coming.
On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 08:26:31 PM EDT, Collin Kidder via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 10wh/mi is extremely dubious. It'd be great if that were physically
possible at realistic speeds but it just isn't.

But, my biggest problem with things like the Aptera is really safety. All
other things being equal, safety in a crash comes down to energy transfer.
And, energy is a function of mass and speed. This is why buses in the US
don't have seatbelts for kids. The bus weighs more than almost anything
else on the road so unless the bus hits a full cement truck head on it will
not experience too shocking of a load. From a physics perspective, this is
the answer to the question: "when two equal cars, each going 60MPH hit, is
it better or worse than hitting a brick wall at 60MPH?" Well, it's the
same. Two cars of equal mass, each going the same speed but in opposite
directions will have the same kinetic energy. So, when they hit they cancel
out each other's energy and both stop as if they hit a brick wall going
60MPH. However, if an F150 with 1500lbs of bricks in the back gets into a
head on collision with an Aptera it's going to go straight through it and
not even come to a complete stop. The Aptera will look like it was hit with
a stack of dynamite. The F150 driver will spill his coffee and ruin his
front end. This is part of the subconscious reason that people in the US
buy such big cars. If I buy a big car or a truck and so does everyone else
but you don't... Well, you're going to have a terrible time if one of us
crashes into you. So, we buy bigger and bigger vehicles so that we're
"safer" on the road. To some extent, that is sound logic.

On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 3:04 PM David Heacock via EV 
wrote:

>  Okay so we have some good conversation going here.  I'll try to keep this
> is short as possible.  I am actually happy that some may believe the Aptera
> might achieve 100 wh/ mi or 10 miles per kWh.  I'm really not sure that can
> be done but we will see and yes I would like to see some actual range
> numbers when testing begins with the production version maybe later this
> year.
> Yes the steering wheel is different and yes Tesla tried something like
> this and there were complaints.  I think it fits with the look of the
> Aptera but I'm also not sure if I will like it even though people who have
> driven the vehicle seem to be happy and haven't so far expressed concerns.
> On being safer than a motorcycle, in my younger years I may have been
> naive enough to think I could just jump clear of my motorcycle when struck
> by another vehicle but I'm very sure I will be safer in an Aptera if
> tee-boned at 30 mph by another vehicle.  There are references to testing
> that showed the roof strength of the Aptera is better than other vehicles
> and the composite materials used are stronger than steel along with the
> fact that they will have two air bags.  Yep, would be nice if they had side
> impact air bags but maybe in the future.
> Stability.  the reference presented is from May 1980 which is old news but
> the funny thing is it points out three things that make a three wheel
> vehicle better than a four wheel vehicle.  1. lighter, 2. more efficient
> aerodynamic envelope and 3. reduced cost--everything Aptera has been
> pointing out.  But here is the real head scratcher from the paper, it
> concludes that it is possible to build a 3-wheel car with essentially the
> same handling and overturn characteristics as any 4-wheel car.  So you want
> stability, take a look at the Moose Test conducted over a year ago aptera
> moose test  What makes it stable? Well Roush has been involved in design
> and improvements and Aptera has been fine tuning the suspension.  It also
> has an 88 inch front wheel base as pointed out-try finding a trailer it
> will fit on. For Roush Roush Advances Development of Aptera’s Solar
> Electric Vehicle | Aptera
>
> |
> |
> |
> |  |  |
>
>  |
>
>  |
> |
> |  |
> Roush Advances Development of Aptera’s Solar Electric Vehicle | Aptera
>
> Michael
>
> Roush Advances Development of Aptera’s Solar Electric Vehicle Roush,
> recognized global leader in engineering, pr...
>  |
>
>  |
>
>  |
>
>
>
>
> As far as storage space, my point is mainly you can carry more than one
> bag of groceries and some pretty big items can be placed in the back
> without all the trouble of folding down seats and such.  Think of it this
> way, you are going over to a friends house and want to borrow a ladder, do
> you take your gas SUV with seats that don't fold flat or just take the
> Aptera?  I'm sure this discussion can go either way.
> Yep it might be too wide in some cases, i.e. garage or trailer.  Agree y

Re: [EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing

[Collin Kidder via EV]

10wh/mi is extremely dubious. It'd be great if that were physically
possible at realistic speeds but it just isn't.

But, my biggest problem with things like the Aptera is really safety. All
other things being equal, safety in a crash comes down to energy transfer.
And, energy is a function of mass and speed. This is why buses in the US
don't have seatbelts for kids. The bus weighs more than almost anything
else on the road so unless the bus hits a full cement truck head on it will
not experience too shocking of a load. From a physics perspective, this is
the answer to the question: "when two equal cars, each going 60MPH hit, is
it better or worse than hitting a brick wall at 60MPH?" Well, it's the
same. Two cars of equal mass, each going the same speed but in opposite
directions will have the same kinetic energy. So, when they hit they cancel
out each other's energy and both stop as if they hit a brick wall going
60MPH. However, if an F150 with 1500lbs of bricks in the back gets into a
head on collision with an Aptera it's going to go straight through it and
not even come to a complete stop. The Aptera will look like it was hit with
a stack of dynamite. The F150 driver will spill his coffee and ruin his
front end. This is part of the subconscious reason that people in the US
buy such big cars. If I buy a big car or a truck and so does everyone else
but you don't... Well, you're going to have a terrible time if one of us
crashes into you. So, we buy bigger and bigger vehicles so that we're
"safer" on the road. To some extent, that is sound logic.

On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 3:04 PM David Heacock via EV 
wrote:

>  Okay so we have some good conversation going here.  I'll try to keep this
> is short as possible.  I am actually happy that some may believe the Aptera
> might achieve 100 wh/ mi or 10 miles per kWh.  I'm really not sure that can
> be done but we will see and yes I would like to see some actual range
> numbers when testing begins with the production version maybe later this
> year.
> Yes the steering wheel is different and yes Tesla tried something like
> this and there were complaints.  I think it fits with the look of the
> Aptera but I'm also not sure if I will like it even though people who have
> driven the vehicle seem to be happy and haven't so far expressed concerns.
> On being safer than a motorcycle, in my younger years I may have been
> naive enough to think I could just jump clear of my motorcycle when struck
> by another vehicle but I'm very sure I will be safer in an Aptera if
> tee-boned at 30 mph by another vehicle.  There are references to testing
> that showed the roof strength of the Aptera is better than other vehicles
> and the composite materials used are stronger than steel along with the
> fact that they will have two air bags.  Yep, would be nice if they had side
> impact air bags but maybe in the future.
> Stability.  the reference presented is from May 1980 which is old news but
> the funny thing is it points out three things that make a three wheel
> vehicle better than a four wheel vehicle.  1. lighter, 2. more efficient
> aerodynamic envelope and 3. reduced cost--everything Aptera has been
> pointing out.  But here is the real head scratcher from the paper, it
> concludes that it is possible to build a 3-wheel car with essentially the
> same handling and overturn characteristics as any 4-wheel car.  So you want
> stability, take a look at the Moose Test conducted over a year ago aptera
> moose test  What makes it stable? Well Roush has been involved in design
> and improvements and Aptera has been fine tuning the suspension.  It also
> has an 88 inch front wheel base as pointed out-try finding a trailer it
> will fit on. For Roush Roush Advances Development of Aptera’s Solar
> Electric Vehicle | Aptera
>
> |
> |
> |
> |  |  |
>
>  |
>
>  |
> |
> |  |
> Roush Advances Development of Aptera’s Solar Electric Vehicle | Aptera
>
> Michael
>
> Roush Advances Development of Aptera’s Solar Electric Vehicle Roush,
> recognized global leader in engineering, pr...
>  |
>
>  |
>
>  |
>
>
>
>
> As far as storage space, my point is mainly you can carry more than one
> bag of groceries and some pretty big items can be placed in the back
> without all the trouble of folding down seats and such.  Think of it this
> way, you are going over to a friends house and want to borrow a ladder, do
> you take your gas SUV with seats that don't fold flat or just take the
> Aptera?  I'm sure this discussion can go either way.
> Yep it might be too wide in some cases, i.e. garage or trailer.  Agree you
> are not going to use an Aptera for a family of four.  But again, consider
> how many people drive to work or the store or whatever with one person in
> the car.  And the price of gas, like I said before, isn't going down. And
> with today's economy I find it hard to believe the average American can
> afford three or four vehicles and are are in fact looking for something
> that will save them money.

Re: [EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing

[David Heacock via EV]

 Okay so we have some good conversation going here.  I'll try to keep this is 
short as possible.  I am actually happy that some may believe the Aptera might 
achieve 100 wh/ mi or 10 miles per kWh.  I'm really not sure that can be done 
but we will see and yes I would like to see some actual range numbers when 
testing begins with the production version maybe later this year.
Yes the steering wheel is different and yes Tesla tried something like this and 
there were complaints.  I think it fits with the look of the Aptera but I'm 
also not sure if I will like it even though people who have driven the vehicle 
seem to be happy and haven't so far expressed concerns.  
On being safer than a motorcycle, in my younger years I may have been naive 
enough to think I could just jump clear of my motorcycle when struck by another 
vehicle but I'm very sure I will be safer in an Aptera if tee-boned at 30 mph 
by another vehicle.  There are references to testing that showed the roof 
strength of the Aptera is better than other vehicles and the composite 
materials used are stronger than steel along with the fact that they will have 
two air bags.  Yep, would be nice if they had side impact air bags but maybe in 
the future.  
Stability.  the reference presented is from May 1980 which is old news but the 
funny thing is it points out three things that make a three wheel vehicle 
better than a four wheel vehicle.  1. lighter, 2. more efficient aerodynamic 
envelope and 3. reduced cost--everything Aptera has been pointing out.  But 
here is the real head scratcher from the paper, it concludes that it is 
possible to build a 3-wheel car with essentially the same handling and overturn 
characteristics as any 4-wheel car.  So you want stability, take a look at the 
Moose Test conducted over a year ago aptera moose test  What makes it stable? 
Well Roush has been involved in design and improvements and Aptera has been 
fine tuning the suspension.  It also has an 88 inch front wheel base as pointed 
out-try finding a trailer it will fit on. For Roush Roush Advances Development 
of Aptera’s Solar Electric Vehicle | Aptera 

| 
| 
| 
|  |  |

 |

 |
| 
|  | 
Roush Advances Development of Aptera’s Solar Electric Vehicle | Aptera

Michael

Roush Advances Development of Aptera’s Solar Electric Vehicle Roush, recognized 
global leader in engineering, pr...
 |

 |

 |




As far as storage space, my point is mainly you can carry more than one bag of 
groceries and some pretty big items can be placed in the back without all the 
trouble of folding down seats and such.  Think of it this way, you are going 
over to a friends house and want to borrow a ladder, do you take your gas SUV 
with seats that don't fold flat or just take the Aptera?  I'm sure this 
discussion can go either way. 
Yep it might be too wide in some cases, i.e. garage or trailer.  Agree you are 
not going to use an Aptera for a family of four.  But again, consider how many 
people drive to work or the store or whatever with one person in the car.  And 
the price of gas, like I said before, isn't going down. And with today's 
economy I find it hard to believe the average American can afford three or four 
vehicles and are are in fact looking for something that will save them money.  
As far as solar, I don't think it is all marketing and yes your results will 
vary.  Again, testing later this year might help answer some questions but if I 
can get even 15 miles of added range while the Aptera is sitting in a parking 
lot all day, sounds good to me.  As far as comparing the solar on the Aptera to 
solar on the roof of your home I'm not quite sure how you can use your the 
solar on your home when you are 100 miles from your home.  And what many don't 
either want to talk about or don't understand, solar on most homes these days 
are totally useless when the grid shuts down--things are changing but it is 
going to cost money.  Maybe just plug in you Aptera instead of buying a backup 
battery for your home? 
The market for the Aptera?  Got me, time will tell.  But with 44,000 signed up 
for one, I have to believe that if they had 20,000 tomorrow they could easily 
sell 10,000 which might set off a fire for demand.  But this gets back to my 
point about supply.  For example, Arcimoto had a demand for something like 
5000-10,000 if I remember correctly but when they could only produce a few 
hundred a year all you have to do is figure out how long it will be before you 
actually get one.  If you can't sell enough vehicles you can't be profitable.  
If you are going to look back 30 years for examples try my Avanti, it was 
supposed to save a 100 year old Studebaker company but because they could not 
deliver enough of them and had quality control issues, a vehicle that was said 
to be ahead of its' time died.  
I agree people are not buying EVs because they are cleaner and will save the 
environment, because they won't.  And yes there is competition and the longer 
it take

Re: [EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing

[EV List Lackey via EV]

As I said before, raising efficiency rather than jamming in a monster 
battery is a Good Thing. If we can believe the claims for Aptera, in that 
respect it's on the right track.   

I want to see the EPA/WLTP numbers, but I can sort of believe that it could 
manage 100 wh/mi.  The humble 1992 Solectria Force, a well-designed Geo 
Metro conversion, managed 150 wh/mi, though not on the highway.  

On 8 Sep 2023 at 0:28, David Heacock via EV wrote:

> it is classified as an autocycle which has features such as three
> wheels, a steering wheel and the driver is enclosed.   

Maybe it's just quibbling, but I saw a photo (rendering?) of the interior 
and I wouldn't call that weird D-shaped thing a steering wheel.  Nor would I 
want to use it.  Maybe others would be fine with it.

> I would feel much safer driving an Aptera, especially because of the
> way the frame and body are made. 

Maybe you'd *feel* safer, but would you really be?  I'm not an engineer, but 
everything I've read says that it's a challenge to design a stable 3-wheel 
vehicle.   

http://www.evdl.org/docs/ev_expo_80_8039_3-wheel_stability.pdf

The Corbin Sparrow had some fairly serious stability problems, especially if 
the battery mass was changed or moved.   

What has Aptera done for improved stability?

> A number of comments have mentioned the limited amount of space inside
> the vehicle but there are references to the Aptera having 60% more
> storage space than a Honda Accord and 20% more than a Toyota Prius.   

Now hold on.  Are they comparing space behind the seats?  To make this fair, 
they should fold down the back seats in the Accord and Prius so they're also 
2-seat cars.

I don't know how they'd fare that way, but I can tell you that Aptera's 
specs claim 32.5 cu ft of cargo space - 920 liters.  If we make our Renault 
Zoe into a 2-seater, we have 1,225 liters of cargo space - about 1/3 more.

And that's in a smaller exterior than the Aptera's.  The Aptera is 455cm 
long and 223cm wide.  That strikes me as an awfully big footprint for a 2-
seat car.

It's wider than a Tesla Model 3, which is classified as a large car in 
Europe.  Thus there are places an Aptera can't go.  For example, it's 3cm 
too wide to fit through the alley leading to my garage.

> I think the more reasonable consideration would not be the storage
> space, but the fact that it is a two seater.   

I agree.  That makes it a specialty vehicle and limits its sales potential.  
Ask Honda why they dropped the CRX, and why they turned the Insight into a 
bland 5-seat family car.   

> when you consider a lot of people commute to work alone this might
> make a great second vehicle 

And not so good for taking the kids out for ice cream or picking up a couple 
of friends at the airport.  I'm thinking 3rd or 4th vehicle, not second, but 
that's me.

> A lot of discussion about how practical solar is for the Aptera ...

Most of it here has had to do with PV efficiency and square area.  

Thing is, without tracking, it will only hit peak power at noon, and only in 
the summer.

Winter will cut the energy harvest.  So will a cloudy place like Seattle.  
Tall city buildings will shade it.  You can't put it in the garage and still 
solar-charge it.

What will it cost to replace the PV if it's in a wreck?  Someone mentioned 
vandalism, and I don't think you can dismiss that as the coal-rolling crowd 
cranks up the violence.  Both of these lead to higher insurance costs.  

What I'm driving at: I can't think of a case where it doesn't make more 
sense to put PV on your roof instead of on your car.

> As far as a market for this vehicle, Aptera thinks there may be a
> market of 600,000 vehicles per year 

Sorry, that's an investor pitch, not a realistic sales estimate.

A Mazda Miata is also a 2-seater.  Its base price is pretty close - about 
$28,000.  Last year Mazda moved 10,547.  In its best year, 1990, Mazda sold 
just under 36,000 Miatas.  

So, 600,000 Apteras per year?  I don't think so.  Maybe 6,000 if they're 
lucky.

> From my perspective new EV startups have often failed not because of
> lack of demand but because of lack of supply and the money to make the
> vehicles.   

I'd be interested in hearing where you saw that.  I've been watching the EV 
world since 1967, and the many failures I've seen have involved lack of 
demand.  

There just weren't a lot of buyers lining up for a EV that did less than an 
equivalent ICEV, but cost more.  Sure the EV is cleaner, but very few people 
care.

Don't forget the competition.  The Aptera price is actually pretty good, if 
they can stick to it, but at least in Europe, there are several more 
conventional EVs in a similar price class.  They may have less range, but 
they're more flexible.  

Cheap and cheerful Chinese EVs are another looming threat.  So is Tesla's 
long-promised $25k EV, if it ever actually materializes.

I think Aptera has a good basic idea.  It probably does more with it than 
others have in the past.  

Re: [EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

> from my experience with my 1985 electric Avanti
> I get more interest than the Tesla parked next

I've been finding this true for a while now. When my 
factory-conversion 1981 Rabbit is parked a few spaces down from any 
Tesla, I see people inspecting it or taking selfies alongside it. I 
get approached frequently by folks who gladly tell me about their 
experiences of having had a gas or diesel Rabbit in the family. The 
car appeals not because it's radically different, but because it's 
radically familiar.


Used to be, I got asked "How far will it go". Nowadays, I get the 
inquiry "What year is that? I didn't know they made EV's in 1981". 
For what little I have invested in it, it's a far better value than 
anything being offered new today, and has more modest class as well. 
It looks loved, which you won't find in any new-car showroom anywhere.


Aptera? Meh. Arcimoto tried to hit all the same talking points and 
last I heard, was banko and in liquidation.


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Re: [EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing

[David Heacock via EV]

 Seems like a lot of comments about the Aptera so first I would say the Aptera 
is not a motorcycle, it is classified as an autocycle which has features such 
as three wheels, a steering wheel and the driver is enclosed.  It is probably 
true that in many states it is considered as a motorcycle for registration and 
insurance purposes but having ridden a two wheel motorcycle in my younger days 
I'm pretty sure I would feel much safer driving an Aptera, especially because 
of the way the frame and body are made.  
A number of comments have mentioned the limited amount of space inside the 
vehicle but there are references to the Aptera having 60% more storage space 
than a Honda Accord and 20% more than a Toyota Prius.  The actual space from 
one reference is 25 cubic feet and doing some simple math from a 2020 Honda 
Accord the Aptera has only 50% more space.  As pointed out there are videos of 
placing a bicycle, surf boards, skis, a ladder and two people laying down 
inside the Aptera.   I think the more reasonable consideration would not be the 
storage space, but the fact that it is a two seater.  Openly the developers 
have stated a two seater is not for everyone but when you consider a lot of 
people commute to work alone this might make a great second vehicle, and with 
gas now being about $5 per gallon, an efficient EV might just be the way to go. 
   
A lot of discussion about how practical solar is for the Aptera.  There seems 
to be some confusion about the efficiency of a solar cell and the amount of 
watts a solar array might put out.  Solar cell efficiency and watts produced 
are not really directly related-i.e. you don't multiply the efficiency by the 
maximum rated watts to get the actual output.  Solar cell efficiency is defined 
as the maximum output power divided by the input power, measured in percentage. 
 Today efficiencies might range from about 17%-23% on average.  This just means 
the energy produced by the cell is maybe only 20% of the energy coming into the 
cell from the sun or other light source.  When talking about solar arrays or 
panels they are usually rated in watts.  If you spend $900 extra when 
purchasing the Aptera you will get a full array of solar cells and the total 
maximum watts is estimated to be 700.  To get the 40 miles of range from this 
array it was calculated that the array produced the maximum 700 watts for 
approximately 5.7 hours so you would get approximately 4000 watt hours or 4 
kWh.  IF the Aptera can achieve 10 miles per kWh then 4 kWh will provide 40 
miles of range.  HOWEVER, as they say in investing, results will vary and I for 
one would never expect to get the maximum output of a solar array over almost 6 
hours.  And depending on where you live, again, the results will vary. But, 
just for laughs, say you were able to get an average of only 300 watts for 5 
hours while your vehicle is sitting in an open parking lot at work in 
California, you might get 1.5 kWh which then would mean an additional 15 miles 
of range.  Keep in mind this only works if the vehicle is very efficient in the 
use of energy. It would not work on an EV that weighs 2 tons and has a drag 
coefficient of 2.0 or greater.  Also consider what happens if the efficiency of 
the cells increases just 10-20% in the future.  Yes Aptera may have over 
estimated the range from solar but it seems like there are more than a few 
people who are asking why they are not getting the range they expected from 
their Teslas.  It is all about education and understanding of EVs.   
As far as a market for this vehicle, Aptera thinks there may be a market of 
600,000 vehicles per year which they break down on the web site into such areas 
as 2 passenger car drivers -140,000, efficient commuters-140,000 and 
environmental adopters-120,000 plus others.  They currently have about 44,000 
people who have put down a deposit for a chance to get one.  When the Prius 
first came out a lot of people bought them just to say they were green and 
saving the planet and actually parked them in their driveways just to show 
their neighbors they cared.  Not exactly rational thinking from my point of 
view.  It is a different looking vehicle but from my experience with my 1985 
electric Avanti I get more interest than the Tesla parked next to it and when 
the vehicle first came out people either loved the design or hated it.  Aptera 
is a forward looking vehicle and is not for everyone but the question is can 
they sell enough of them to be profitable?  From my perspective new EV startups 
have often failed not because of lack of demand but because of lack of supply 
and the money to make the vehicles.  As far as leaving the vehicle outside 
being a problem I can't see why that would be any more of an issue that if you 
had a BMW, Mercedes, a Tesla or some other expensive car being left outside 
which I see all the time.
If you have the time, take a look at the people who are working for and 
investing in Aptera. 

Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[Mark Laity-Snyder via EV]

 
>Again, I like Aptera's fundamental principles.  We can use that kind of 
>thinking, and that kind of EV.  But in my view, the PV is a gimmick that 
>just pushes the price up.  I also have my doubts about the wheel motors.  

>I wish Aptera the best and hope it takes flight, but I wouldn't invest in 
>them.

>David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

I like it also.  If I had $ and no wife (who would divorce me for buying 
it), I would totally try it out. 
Mark  
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Re: [EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 9/5/23 17:51, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:



2. It's limited.  It can't carry much cargo or many people.  This again
raises the value-for-money question. It might have around 80 miles less
range, but in parts of Europe a similar price gets you a Dacia Spring EV
that can haul 4 people in relative comfort, and a week or two of groceries.



Yes, it's a 3 wheel motorcycle with only a 2 person capacitybut it 
does have a lot of cargo room under that long back hatch. [It converts 
into a bed that can sleep twoand can easily carry a week's worth of 
groceries.]




Jay
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Re: [EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing

[EV List Lackey via EV]

I like what Aptera is trying to do. Tackling the question of range by 
boosting vehicle efficiency rather than cramming in a monster-capacity-
battery is admirable - and rational.  

The problem is that auto buyers aren't very rational, especially in the US. 

1.  The Aptera looks ... funny. It's small.  It seems fragile. It has only 3 
wheels.  That could work (somewhat) in Europe - look at the mild successes 
of the Renault Twizy and the Citroen Ami.  BUT, it would have to be cheap 
like they were/are, and it's not. 

2. It's limited.  It can't carry much cargo or many people.  This again 
raises the value-for-money question. It might have around 80 miles less 
range, but in parts of Europe a similar price gets you a Dacia Spring EV 
that can haul 4 people in relative comfort, and a week or two of groceries.

3. As Michael and Lee said, Aptera seems to be over-promising.  EV 
manufacturers and converters made the same error in the 1970s and 1980s. The 
person who bought an "up to 40 miles of range" 1976 Citicar expecting it to 
take him to a job 18 miles away and back probably gave up and sold the car.  
Today's Aptera buyers who don't get their 40 miles on sunshine are more 
likely to file a class action suit.  Do you think Aptera would survive one?

Sidebar: Renault was careful not to make that mistake with their Zoe.  In 
their literature, they stated the Zoe's real-world range in different kinds 
of weather and uses, along with the required regulatory-standard range 
figures. 

Again, I like Aptera's fundamental principles.  We can use that kind of 
thinking, and that kind of EV.  But in my view, the PV is a gimmick that 
just pushes the price up.  I also have my doubts about the wheel motors.  

I wish Aptera the best and hope it takes flight, but I wouldn't invest in 
them.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing

[Lee Hart via EV]

Michael Ross via EV wrote:

Boy, would I like this to work.
I must say that, on vehicle solar charging seems to me a marketing
strategy, not a useful design feature.


I agree. Their numbers sound like best-case marketing claims, rather 
than typical-use cases.



...1000 watts per square meter
...maybe 6 hours of peak sun
...collector efficiency might be 20%


So 20% of 1000 watts x 6 hours is 1200 watt-hours per day (at best)


...at 10kWh per 10 miles


I think you meant 1 KWH per 10 miles (10 miles per watt-hour). That is 
about triple the efficiency of a typical EV. If that's the case, then 
1200 watt-hours will go 12 miles. So I think you're right; 10-12 miles 
per day on sunlight alone.



They are claiming:
*1,000 miles on a single charge *(I love this!)


At 10 miles/KWH, that would require a 100 KWH pack; as big (and heavy) 
as a Tesla's! That sound like a pretty extreme marketing exaggeration.



*40 miles of solar powered driving per day *


The only way this is possible is if they seriously improved their 100 
WH/mile efficiency. But that might be possible. The Solectria Sunrise 
got it down to 60 WH/mile in racing form, and the solar Raycers are as 
low as 10 WH/mile (by being almost bicycles with solar panels).



There is going to be thousands of $ in that solar apparatus.
I would call that needless complication for marketing purposes.


It's a tough call. Commodity PV panels are much cheaper, but less 
efficient. As with any PV installation, one has to consider the value of 
the lifetime power generated to the initial cost. The economics might 
work out in the long run, if the cost of local grid power is high.


But there are the practicalities. Are you really going to leave an 
expensive Aptera sitting outside every day? Vandalism may be an issue.



Give me anything else, softer seats, a good stereo, good air flow perhaps
from fans, and let me plug it in the wall to get charged.


My guess would be that the average consumer values comfort and 
convenience more than bleeding-edge technology. But there will always be 
at least a few pioneers; so Aptera may find a small market. After all 
the Swiss Twike did.



It is interesting to note in all this discussion of charging that Aptera,
long before the OEMs decided to go with the Tesla plug, actually submitted
a petition for adoption of the Tesla plug nationwide.  Of course, most
people thought that was a stupid idea and figured it would never happen.
However, Aptera did decide to use the plug for their vehicles when they
come to production.


It may be that the other automakers had dreams of setting up their *own* 
charging monopoly. Aptera didn't have the resources to set up their own 
network; so they used Tesla's.



In an effort to increase the range of EVs most companies adopted the plan
of just installing a bigger battery pack which increased weight and most
likely decreased overall efficiency.  The result is naturally longer
charging times and efforts to increase the capacity of the charging units
themselves.


Yes; the automakers have always had a "more is better" philosophy. 1-ton 
cars become 2-ton EVs. As you say, doubling the weight will roughly 
double everything else; twice the materials, twice cost, twice the 
energy usage. A small light efficient EV could be dramatically cheaper, 
more efficient, and have a much better impact on global warming.



...average driving per day is 40-50 miles
...can simply plug in at home at night
...so why would most people even need to stop and fast charge


Exactly. But most people don't buy cars based on their actual daily 
*needs*; they buy based on their emotional *wants*. They want what 
everybody else has. They *want* to be able to drive 500 miles non-stop, 
to carry 6 people and a ton of lumber, drive off-road, etc. So they all 
buy big SUVs and pickup trucks to haul one person to the store or work 
50 miles a day.


There are of course people who do need to driver longer distances and 
carry more; but not enough to account for half the vehicles on the road 
being SUVs and trucks.


I wish Aptera all the best, and hope they can find enough of a market to 
survive. But I really wish there were more offerings in between the 
automaker's monster-tank EVs and petite hyper-car EVs.


Lee
--
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily
available, they will create their own problems. -- Scott Adams
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing

[Michael Ross via EV]

Boy, would I like this to work.
I must say that, *on vehicle, solar charging* seems to me a *marketing
strategy*, *not a useful design feature*.

Here in central NC we get, at very best, 1000 watts per square meter, that
is not all day long, maybe 6 hours of peak sun. We don't get that daily by
any stretch of the imagination.
Reality is always less, and way less factoring the clouds that go with 50"
of rain a year. That is for a surface that is not substantially turned away
from the sun or shaded in any way.
Then the efficiency of the collector might be 20%, or 200 watts per hour at
best.

I didn't see much info about the solar aperture of the Aptera, but a square
meter might not be out of line.

So, at 10kWh per 10 miles, I see the Aptera getting 10 miles worth of power
in 5 hours of really good sunlight. A full days worth where I live.

They are claiming:
*1,000 miles on a single charge *(I love this!)

*40 miles of solar powered driving per day *
Not so sure this is possible. I could take 20 hours of the best solar
charging to get enough power for 40 miles.

Those array elements look fanciful for getting 20% efficiency. But, they
look like more than a square meter. I am going to call it a wash.

There is going to be thousands of $ in that solar apparatus.
I would call that needless complication for marketing purposes.
Give me anything else, softer seats, a good stereo, good air flow perhaps
from fans, and let me plug it in the wall to get charged.

Mike

On Tue, Sep 5, 2023 at 10:40 AM David Heacock via EV 
wrote:

> It is interesting to note in all this discussion of charging that Aptera,
> long before the OEMs decided to go with the Tesla plug, actually submitted
> a petition for adoption of the Tesla plug nationwide.  Of course, most
> people thought that was a stupid idea and figured it would never happen.
> However, Aptera did decide to use the plug for their vehicles when they
> come to production.
>
> In an effort to increase the range of EVs most companies adopted the plan
> of just installing a bigger battery pack which increased weight and most
> likely decreased overall efficiency.  The result is naturally longer
> charging times and efforts to increase the capacity of the charging units
> themselves.  Aptera has taken a different approach by building a very
> efficient design so that a smaller battery pack is needed to actually get a
> greater range.  And go figure, the smaller battery pack takes less time to
> charge.  While most OEMs are looking at maybe 3-5 miles per kWh, Aptera is
> shooting for 10 miles per kWh.
>
> Since the average driving range per day is less than 40 or 50 miles the
> question becomes why would most people even need to stop and fast charge
> when they can simply plug in at home at night when the electric rates may
> be much lower and have a fully charged EV the next morning. Obviously there
> are people who don’t have access to chargers in apartments and such but
> might  have access to 115 volt outlets at work or at an apartment complex.
> I leased a 2013 Nissan Leaf for three years and for the first two years I
> simply plugged it into a 115 outlet in my garage.  Of course I was retired
> at the time and didn’t drive much per day but again a lot of people don’t
> drive all that far to work and back.  But what about not needing to charge
> at all for most of the time using solar?  Well Aptera is trying to solve
> that problem also with solar on the vehicle itself so that when the vehicle
> is parked at work you can actually add range for your trip home.  If Aptera
> can realize a range of 10 miles per kWh then it will not take much solar to
> provide maybe 20 miles or so per day which is probably more than enough for
> most commutes. There are some here that say that is not possible but again,
> at one point not so long ago, adoption of the Tesla plug was a stupid idea
> as was Amazon.
>
> To be honest I am a supporter of Aptera and have an order in for one.
> Might not happen, but then again…….
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-- 
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[EVDL] (EVDL)EV charging is changing

[David Heacock via EV]

It is interesting to note in all this discussion of charging that Aptera, long 
before the OEMs decided to go with the Tesla plug, actually submitted a 
petition for adoption of the Tesla plug nationwide.  Of course, most people 
thought that was a stupid idea and figured it would never happen.  However, 
Aptera did decide to use the plug for their vehicles when they come to 
production.  

In an effort to increase the range of EVs most companies adopted the plan of 
just installing a bigger battery pack which increased weight and most likely 
decreased overall efficiency.  The result is naturally longer charging times 
and efforts to increase the capacity of the charging units themselves.  Aptera 
has taken a different approach by building a very efficient design so that a 
smaller battery pack is needed to actually get a greater range.  And go figure, 
the smaller battery pack takes less time to charge.  While most OEMs are 
looking at maybe 3-5 miles per kWh, Aptera is shooting for 10 miles per kWh.  

Since the average driving range per day is less than 40 or 50 miles the 
question becomes why would most people even need to stop and fast charge when 
they can simply plug in at home at night when the electric rates may be much 
lower and have a fully charged EV the next morning. Obviously there are people 
who don’t have access to chargers in apartments and such but might  have access 
to 115 volt outlets at work or at an apartment complex.  I leased a 2013 Nissan 
Leaf for three years and for the first two years I simply plugged it into a 115 
outlet in my garage.  Of course I was retired at the time and didn’t drive much 
per day but again a lot of people don’t drive all that far to work and back.  
But what about not needing to charge at all for most of the time using solar?  
Well Aptera is trying to solve that problem also with solar on the vehicle 
itself so that when the vehicle is parked at work you can actually add range 
for your trip home.  If Aptera can realize a range of 10 miles per kWh then it 
will not take much solar to provide maybe 20 miles or so per day which is 
probably more than enough for most commutes. There are some here that say that 
is not possible but again, at one point not so long ago, adoption of the Tesla 
plug was a stupid idea as was Amazon.  

To be honest I am a supporter of Aptera and have an order in for one.  Might 
not happen, but then again…….  
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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 

On Wednesday, August 30, 2023, 04:18:24 PM PDT, Lawrence Rhodes 
 wrote:  
 
  Level 2 charging is trivial and inexpensive if you have a 240 outlet close to 
your vehicle. A Tesla portable EVSE is $230. j1772 adapter from Tesla is 
$60.00. This setup will connect most EVs to the grid. Lawrence Rhodes   
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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 30 Aug 2023 at 18:28, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> Exactly! So why is this never mentioned in any public discussion of EVs 
> by the various reviewers, talking heads, and pundits? Every single 
> article or news program I've seen or heard ignores home charging, and 
> instead stresses the "need" for a vast public charging infrastructure.

I suspect that many alleged journalists have no real experience with EVs, 
and simply can't let go of the filling station model.  Of course making EVs 
look inconvenient is just fine with Big Oil and some automakers.

That said, public charging IS critical in some places.  Europe is all in for 
EVs, and they recognize that - especially in the large cities - many people 
don't have off-street parking.

Nevertheless, from 2012 tol 2019, Renault specifically said that they 
expected most of their Zoe buyers to charge at home.  They therefore didn't 
bother to offer DC fast charging until 2020.  

I live in a small rural French town and the situation here is different 
from, say, Paris or Nice.  While many houses don't have garages or off 
street parking, often the houses are so close to the street that you can 
just pass a charging cable out your front window.  Our former neighbor 
charged his Zoe that way.

Most houses in the ritzier neighborhoods on the edge of town have garages.  
Still further out in the hamlets, houses have more land, and therefore have 
off-street parking, even if not always in a barn or garage.

So quite a few people can and do charge at home.  

For those who can't, there's paid public charging in the center of town, and 
the supermarket offers free 22kw AC charging while you shop.  

The charging situation seems to work for a fair number of people, because 
even in this small town (population < 4000), I see a lot more EVs than I 
ever did when I lived in Ohio.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[John McIntire via EV]

Was that a rhetorical question? I think we all know why. It is called "big 
business", including big oil and media and, more and more, big gov't. Big 
business is vested in the status quo. I believe it is up to those who have some 
experience with EVs to spread the word...word of mouth. Thanks for your 
help.

John M


Aug 30, 2023, 8:29 PM by ev@lists.evdl.org:

> Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>
>> Level 2 charging is trivial and inexpensive if you have a 240 outlet close 
>> to your vehicle. A Tesla portable EVSE is $230. j1772 adapter from Tesla is 
>> $60.00. This setup will connect most EVs to the grid.
>>
>
> Exactly! So why is this never mentioned in any public discussion of EVs by 
> the various reviewers, talking heads, and pundits? Every single article or 
> news program I've seen or heard ignores home charging, and instead stresses 
> the "need" for a vast public charging infrastructure.
>
> Lee
>
> -- 
> Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
> our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
> and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

  Level 2 charging is trivial and inexpensive if you have a 240 outlet close to 
your vehicle. A Tesla portable EVSE is $230. j1772 adapter from Tesla is 
$60.00. This setup will connect most EVs to the grid.


Exactly! So why is this never mentioned in any public discussion of EVs 
by the various reviewers, talking heads, and pundits? Every single 
article or news program I've seen or heard ignores home charging, and 
instead stresses the "need" for a vast public charging infrastructure.


Lee

--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
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[EVDL] EV charging is changing

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 Level 2 charging is trivial and inexpensive if you have a 240 outlet close to 
your vehicle. A Tesla portable EVSE is $230. j1772 adapter from Tesla is 
$60.00. This setup will connect most EVs to the grid. Lawrence Rhodes 
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[EVDL] EV charging is changing - Tesla NACS vs CCS

[EV@TucsonEV via EV]

https://chargedevs.com/features/ev-charging-is-changing-part-2-no-nacs-is-not-to
days-tesla-connector/

 

Here's part 2 and

 

https://chargedevs.com/features/ev-charging-is-changing-part-3-why-teslas-nacs-i
s-unlikely-to-kill-ccs/

 

Part 3 

 

My only complaint about the Tesla plug and inlet system is that as a vendor I
don't really have access to either. I sell and service mainly the J1772 Plugs
and inlets (although I do have access to Chademo and CCS plug and inlets) and
the Tesla plugs and inlets are unobtainable. The plug is potted and not
serviceable and the inlet has more functions than just a inlet (door opener,
latch solenoid, RFID reader, etc) But I do have lots of Tesla 40A plugs left
over from people that sent me UMC Gen 1 and 2 units and wanted them changed out
to J1772. I have made up J1772 inlet to Tesla plug extension cords by splicing
the Tesla plug onto EV cord. And also modified some generic J1772 EVSE's into
Tesla EVSE's by removing the J1772 plug and splicing the Tesla plug onto the
EVSE cord.

 

Best regards,

 

Rush Dougherty

TucsonEV

www.TucsonEV.com  

 

 

 

 

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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[SLPinfo.org via EV]

Clearly we are in a period of transition. Like many here I charge at home
but also at work.

The worm appears to have turned and EVs as a major part of the
transportation system seem to be inevitable.

Tesla has their network. Some automakers have decided to adapt to that.
Others are planning a separate network. There are the current private
networks and it's not yet clear how the money from the Inflation Reduction
Act will be used for charging stations. But the stations are coming. Isn't
this exactly what those on this list have long been hoping for?

Maybe I'm just an optimist, but I think (as with any open niche in any
ecosystem) the availability will eventually expand to meet the need.

Obviously it's hard to say how quickly it will happen. Thus, the angst out
there (and to a lesser extent in here) is understandable. But I think it
will work itself out.


Peter Flipsen Jr
Carlton, OR


On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 4:35 PM Rod Hower via EV  wrote:

>  My 2014 Volt only has 46 miles of range.  I drive 21 miles to work and
> charge there at Chargepoint for 10 cents per kWhr.  I have 240Vac at home
> and charge there as well.  98% of my travel is electric.  I take some work
> trips that are less than 500 miles and then use gas.  I guess it's more of
> a problem for people that live in an apartment without access to a 120Vac
> plug, but that also hasn't been a problem either unless you live in a huge
> complex without access.
> On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 05:42:51 PM EDT, paul dove via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>   That's great except for traveling and apartment dwellers. I only use the
> supercharger when on the interstates.
> My non-Tesla EV  I only use in the city and charge at home.
> On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 04:06:05 PM CDT, Lee Hart via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>  EV@TucsonEV via EV wrote:
> > One of the reasons why parking meters went to CC systems is the fact
> that they
> > were continuously broken into and were more costly to maintain since
> they needed
> > someone to empty them of the change.
>
> It's depressing to see how the future is developing. Like the Grateful
> Dead sang, "What a long strange trip it's been".
>
> The impression I get is that "everyone" thinks public charging must
> follow the gas station model. All chargers must be "fast" and cost $5 or
> more to use. These expensive charging stations are frequently vandalized
> and broken.
>
> Everyone drives 100-200 miles every day, and no one can charge at home
> without spending thousands of dollars on a home charging station. So we
> *must* have vast network of public charging stations to match the
> existing network of gas stations.
>
> That's not the only solution, you know. Where I live, there are hundreds
> of free public AC outlets. They've been there for decades, for plugging
> in your ICE's block heaters in the winter. They don't get vandalized,
> except by an occasional errant snowplow. Every EV I've seen already has
> a built-in charger; all it needs is any normal AC outlet. I simply
> charge at home, or plugged in at work so by quitting time, my EV was
> fully charged.
>
> There are parking meters that accept real coins, and meter readers that
> collect the coins (and put the tickets on your car if it's over-parked).
> I have yet to see one that takes credit cards.
>
> There are no gated communities, and people generally don't lock their
> cars or their doors. Theft and vandalism are not enough of a problem to
> worry about.
>
> Lee
>
> --
> Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
> our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
> and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> --
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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[Rod Hower via EV]

 My 2014 Volt only has 46 miles of range.  I drive 21 miles to work and charge 
there at Chargepoint for 10 cents per kWhr.  I have 240Vac at home and charge 
there as well.  98% of my travel is electric.  I take some work trips that are 
less than 500 miles and then use gas.  I guess it's more of a problem for 
people that live in an apartment without access to a 120Vac plug, but that also 
hasn't been a problem either unless you live in a huge complex without access.
On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 05:42:51 PM EDT, paul dove via EV 
 wrote:  
 
  That's great except for traveling and apartment dwellers. I only use the 
supercharger when on the interstates.
My non-Tesla EV  I only use in the city and charge at home.
    On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 04:06:05 PM CDT, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 EV@TucsonEV via EV wrote:
> One of the reasons why parking meters went to CC systems is the fact that they
> were continuously broken into and were more costly to maintain since they 
> needed
> someone to empty them of the change.

It's depressing to see how the future is developing. Like the Grateful 
Dead sang, "What a long strange trip it's been".

The impression I get is that "everyone" thinks public charging must 
follow the gas station model. All chargers must be "fast" and cost $5 or 
more to use. These expensive charging stations are frequently vandalized 
and broken.

Everyone drives 100-200 miles every day, and no one can charge at home 
without spending thousands of dollars on a home charging station. So we 
*must* have vast network of public charging stations to match the 
existing network of gas stations.

That's not the only solution, you know. Where I live, there are hundreds 
of free public AC outlets. They've been there for decades, for plugging 
in your ICE's block heaters in the winter. They don't get vandalized, 
except by an occasional errant snowplow. Every EV I've seen already has 
a built-in charger; all it needs is any normal AC outlet. I simply 
charge at home, or plugged in at work so by quitting time, my EV was 
fully charged.

There are parking meters that accept real coins, and meter readers that 
collect the coins (and put the tickets on your car if it's over-parked). 
I have yet to see one that takes credit cards.

There are no gated communities, and people generally don't lock their 
cars or their doors. Theft and vandalism are not enough of a problem to 
worry about.

Lee

-- 
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[paul dove via EV]

 That's great except for traveling and apartment dwellers. I only use the 
supercharger when on the interstates.
My non-Tesla EV  I only use in the city and charge at home.
On Tuesday, August 29, 2023 at 04:06:05 PM CDT, Lee Hart via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 EV@TucsonEV via EV wrote:
> One of the reasons why parking meters went to CC systems is the fact that they
> were continuously broken into and were more costly to maintain since they 
> needed
> someone to empty them of the change.

It's depressing to see how the future is developing. Like the Grateful 
Dead sang, "What a long strange trip it's been".

The impression I get is that "everyone" thinks public charging must 
follow the gas station model. All chargers must be "fast" and cost $5 or 
more to use. These expensive charging stations are frequently vandalized 
and broken.

Everyone drives 100-200 miles every day, and no one can charge at home 
without spending thousands of dollars on a home charging station. So we 
*must* have vast network of public charging stations to match the 
existing network of gas stations.

That's not the only solution, you know. Where I live, there are hundreds 
of free public AC outlets. They've been there for decades, for plugging 
in your ICE's block heaters in the winter. They don't get vandalized, 
except by an occasional errant snowplow. Every EV I've seen already has 
a built-in charger; all it needs is any normal AC outlet. I simply 
charge at home, or plugged in at work so by quitting time, my EV was 
fully charged.

There are parking meters that accept real coins, and meter readers that 
collect the coins (and put the tickets on your car if it's over-parked). 
I have yet to see one that takes credit cards.

There are no gated communities, and people generally don't lock their 
cars or their doors. Theft and vandalism are not enough of a problem to 
worry about.

Lee

-- 
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

-- 
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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[Lee Hart via EV]

EV@TucsonEV via EV wrote:

One of the reasons why parking meters went to CC systems is the fact that they
were continuously broken into and were more costly to maintain since they needed
someone to empty them of the change.


It's depressing to see how the future is developing. Like the Grateful 
Dead sang, "What a long strange trip it's been".


The impression I get is that "everyone" thinks public charging must 
follow the gas station model. All chargers must be "fast" and cost $5 or 
more to use. These expensive charging stations are frequently vandalized 
and broken.


Everyone drives 100-200 miles every day, and no one can charge at home 
without spending thousands of dollars on a home charging station. So we 
*must* have vast network of public charging stations to match the 
existing network of gas stations.


That's not the only solution, you know. Where I live, there are hundreds 
of free public AC outlets. They've been there for decades, for plugging 
in your ICE's block heaters in the winter. They don't get vandalized, 
except by an occasional errant snowplow. Every EV I've seen already has 
a built-in charger; all it needs is any normal AC outlet. I simply 
charge at home, or plugged in at work so by quitting time, my EV was 
fully charged.


There are parking meters that accept real coins, and meter readers that 
collect the coins (and put the tickets on your car if it's over-parked). 
I have yet to see one that takes credit cards.


There are no gated communities, and people generally don't lock their 
cars or their doors. Theft and vandalism are not enough of a problem to 
worry about.


Lee

--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[paul dove via EV]

There own cheapness brought them to Tesla. They didn’t want to pay for it. 
Wanted the government or someone else to foot the bill.


Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Monday, August 28, 2023, 12:44 PM, EV@TucsonEV via EV  
wrote:

https://chargedevs.com/features/how-automakers-disappointment-in-electrify-ameri
ca-drove-them-into-teslas-arms-ev-charging-is-changing-part-1
 

 

EV charging is changing, Part 1: How automakers' disappointment in Electrify
America drove them into Tesla's arms

 

Here's ChargedEV's look at why and how the Tesla NACS became so popular so
quickly.

 

"Overall, this year's developments reflect deep dissatisfaction among automakers
other than Tesla with the state of US fast charging-accompanied by fear that
Tesla's ultra-reliable and deeply integrated Supercharger network has given it a
permanent competitive advantage."

 

"It's hard to overstate the disgust and anger at Electrify America among
virtually every person we interviewed. The network has come to be viewed, fairly
or not, as the most minimal effort VW Group could have exerted to comply with
the 10-year, $2-billion settlement it jointly negotiated with the EPA and the
California Air Resources Board (CARB)"

 

Coming soon:
Part 2: No, NACS is not today's Tesla connector
Part 3: Why Tesla's NACS is unlikely to kill CCS
Part 4: Behind the scenes of seven automakers answer to Tesla's Superchargers 

 

Best regards,

 

Rush Dougherty

TucsonEV

www.TucsonEV.com  

 

 

 

 

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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 8/28/2023 6:34 PM, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
And have the machines broken off their stands and stolen - just like 
happens to store ATM machines.


Wouldn't it depend on how much they charge per hour, or per KWH? 
Nobody steals parking meters. There isn't enough money in them to make 
it worthwhile.


At $0.10/KWH, a 10 KW charging station is only costing $1/hour for 
electricity. An EV that uses 300 WH/mile gets 33 miles of charge for 
each hour parked.


You seem to be forgetting most of the costs, and profit that such a 
system would include.
I'd bet it would charge at least $0.50/KWh.  Also note that we are 
talking DC Fast Charging, not J1772.  Stations will be 100KW and up.

So a busy station could accumulate significant funds in a day.
And don't think that thieves will actually worry about how much they get 
when causing $10,000 damage to a site.  If they make $50, it's worth it 
to them.



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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[EV@TucsonEV via EV]

One of the reasons why parking meters went to CC systems is the fact that they
were continuously broken into and were more costly to maintain since they needed
someone to empty them of the change.

Best regards,

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV
www.TucsonEV.com




> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of EV List Lackey via EV
> Sent: Monday, August 28, 2023 5:13 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Cc: EV List Lackey 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing
>
> On 28 Aug 2023 at 10:40, EV@TucsonEV via EV wrote:
>
> > How automakers' disappointment in Electrify America drove them into
> > Tesla's arms
>
> I've read - probably here - that one of the sources of the charging points'
> reliability problems is the state of the mobile phone network.
>
> BTW, it's unnerving that, from what I've read, self-driving cars also rely on
the mobile
> phone network.
>
> Wouldn't it be nice if charging points would accept cash?  There'd be no need
for
> them to phone home for ID card verification or for credit card approval.  Just
shovel
> in some cash and charge, like parking at a parking meter.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my offlist
address here :
> http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>  First Law of Bicycling: No matter which way you ride, it's uphill
>  and against the wind.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
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>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[Steves via EV]

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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[Lee Hart via EV]

John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

Wouldn't it be nice if charging points would accept cash?  There'd be no
need for them to phone home for ID card verification or for credit card
approval. Just shovel in some cash and charge, like parking at a parking
meter.


And have the machines broken off their stands and stolen - just like 
happens to store ATM machines.


Wouldn't it depend on how much they charge per hour, or per KWH? Nobody 
steals parking meters. There isn't enough money in them to make it 
worthwhile.


At $0.10/KWH, a 10 KW charging station is only costing $1/hour for 
electricity. An EV that uses 300 WH/mile gets 33 miles of charge for 
each hour parked.


Lee
--
Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

--
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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 8/28/2023 5:13 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
BTW, it's unnerving that, from what I've read, self-driving cars also 
rely

on the mobile phone network.


Some may, Tesla doesn't require it.  (at least, not continuously, just 
needs to be able to fetch map data now and then for navigation and 
charging site activity data.)



Wouldn't it be nice if charging points would accept cash?  There'd be no
need for them to phone home for ID card verification or for credit card
approval.  Just shovel in some cash and charge, like parking at a parking
meter.


And have the machines broken off their stands and stolen - just like 
happens to store ATM machines.



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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 28 Aug 2023 at 10:40, EV@TucsonEV via EV wrote:

> How automakers' disappointment in Electrify America drove them into
> Tesla's arms 

I've read - probably here - that one of the sources of the charging points' 
reliability problems is the state of the mobile phone network. 

BTW, it's unnerving that, from what I've read, self-driving cars also rely 
on the mobile phone network.

Wouldn't it be nice if charging points would accept cash?  There'd be no 
need for them to phone home for ID card verification or for credit card 
approval.  Just shovel in some cash and charge, like parking at a parking 
meter.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 First Law of Bicycling: No matter which way you ride, it's uphill 
 and against the wind.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] EV charging is changing

[Mark Laity-Snyder via EV]

 
I would like to say the following is surprising but really it is not.  
Obviously, VW did the bare minimum they could get away with and it shows.  

"Overall, this year's developments reflect deep dissatisfaction among automakers
other than Tesla with the state of US fast charging-accompanied by fear that
Tesla's ultra-reliable and deeply integrated Supercharger network has given it a
permanent competitive advantage."

 

 

 

  
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[EVDL] EV charging is changing

[EV@TucsonEV via EV]

https://chargedevs.com/features/how-automakers-disappointment-in-electrify-ameri
ca-drove-them-into-teslas-arms-ev-charging-is-changing-part-1
 

 

EV charging is changing, Part 1: How automakers' disappointment in Electrify
America drove them into Tesla's arms

 

Here's ChargedEV's look at why and how the Tesla NACS became so popular so
quickly.

 

"Overall, this year's developments reflect deep dissatisfaction among automakers
other than Tesla with the state of US fast charging-accompanied by fear that
Tesla's ultra-reliable and deeply integrated Supercharger network has given it a
permanent competitive advantage."

 

"It's hard to overstate the disgust and anger at Electrify America among
virtually every person we interviewed. The network has come to be viewed, fairly
or not, as the most minimal effort VW Group could have exerted to comply with
the 10-year, $2-billion settlement it jointly negotiated with the EPA and the
California Air Resources Board (CARB)"

 

Coming soon:
Part 2: No, NACS is not today's Tesla connector
Part 3: Why Tesla's NACS is unlikely to kill CCS
Part 4: Behind the scenes of seven automakers answer to Tesla's Superchargers 

 

Best regards,

 

Rush Dougherty

TucsonEV

www.TucsonEV.com  

 

 

 

 

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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 129, Issue 22

[Mark Laity-Snyder via EV]

 Hey electric pioneers.  I found this YouTube about EVs.  Sabine H is a science 
communicator. She is interesting and has a lot of subjects including how 
Hydrogen economy is dependent on BUILDING it. I think she did a good job 
explaining things. Let me know what you think. 
Thanks,Mark
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, Hub motors.

[Paul Compton via EV]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 at 15:46, Josh Landess via EV  wrote:

> Your own points can be added to the skeptical side of my watching
> things, but just to balance this out a bit, it does appear that Saietta
> does still exist, as a quoted company (albeit on the AIM tier in London)
> and here is an April announcement of a sale of products, though to
> another small last-mile EV listed company in the US.

If you've been around the EV scene long enough, you will have come
across many 'smoke and mirrors' companies that seem to exist entirely
on grant money and private equity.

All of the 'products' on their website are renders.

Cedric had developed a brushless version of his motor and Saietta were
meant to be productionising it. They had examples on display at
Cenex-LCV a couple of years ago and would confidently tell you they
could be ordered, but talking to Cedric (whom I've known since about
1993), they were just mock-ups and no production ready example
actually existed.



--
Paul Compton
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, Hub motors.

[Josh Landess via EV]

Thanks for this info and perspective.

Your own points can be added to the skeptical side of my watching 
things, but just to balance this out a bit, it does appear that Saietta 
does still exist, as a quoted company (albeit on the AIM tier in London) 
and here is an April announcement of a sale of products, though to 
another small last-mile EV listed company in the US.


https://polaris.brighterir.com/public/saietta_group/news/rns/story/rye5jyw
Monday 3 April 2023
Saietta Group Plc
("Saietta", the "Company" or the "Group")
Commercial Update
US Urban Delivery Manufacturer Places c.£5 million Order for 3,000 eDrives
Saietta Group Plc (AIM: SED), the multi-national business which designs, 
engineers and manufactures complete light duty and heavy duty eDrive 
systems for electric vehicles, today announces it has received an order 
for 3,000 eDrive units from its existing US customer, AYRO Inc ("AYRO").


What I can't figure out is whether they are selling in-wheel motors 
and/or something else.  I would respect it if they had branched out into 
other products, depending on whatever would work for their customers and 
keep Saietta in business.  i.e.: it would be gratifying to some of us if 
we could see more in-wheel motors in action, if only to get a better 
sense of how they will perform and what the limitations will be, but if 
that's not the right product for them to be selling in all cases, then I 
hope they're getting things done in their best area.



On 7/27/2023 12:47 AM, Paul Compton via EV wrote:


On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 at 00:23, Josh Landess via EV  wrote:


and we have this other blast-from-the-past:
https://www.saietta.com/about-us/
however, I don't know if they are presently trying to offer the in-wheel
product.  I don't presently see language about it on their page.

The words "Saietta" and "product" shouldn't really appear in the same sentence!

They did sell the AGNI (Lynch) motor for a while, but the legal
partnership turned out not to actually exhist (Cedric and Arvind ended
up getting "paid off" with Lithium cells and PV panels).They'd stopped
servicing motors, or supply spares, even whilst still selling them.

They are masters of vapourware and hype. Mostly what they sell is
consultancy services and feasibility studies, the value of which is
somewhat questionable.

I was invited there for a tour and a meeting and offered contract work
as a result, but it soon became evident that they wouldn't pay a
reasonable day rate.

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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, Hub motors.

[Josh Landess via EV]

Thanks, good to know the name Elaphe and to have the video links.

After 10 or 20 or more years of all of the broader vehicle-driving 
community being talked-at about in-wheel motors (going back to the early 
dreams of the MIEV and perhaps before), and notwithstanding that they 
are available on some slower 2-wheelers, I'd love to see an actual 
decent highway-capable passenger vehicle that actually incorporates this 
technology and makes it widely and affordably available to consumers.  
Does anyone know of such a vehicle for sale right now?  Anything in China?


As to Aptera, I hope they start actually delivering vehicles soon.

Josh




On 7/26/2023 5:05 PM, Ryan Fulcher via EV wrote:

The hub motors that Aptera are using are made by Elaphe, see these videos I
posted earlier:

On 7/8/2023 8:51 PM, Ryan Fulcher wrote:

https://youtu.be/CqPMtEIT3f4
https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8

Also, in case anyone saw the recent national news story where an Aptera
overheated... We got details later, that car was a Gamma prototype from 18
months ago for mostly aesthetic demos.  So it never has any cooling system
components installed, so it's actually done quite well for basically being
run with no active thermal management to speak of...

On Wed, Jul 26, 2023, 16:24 Josh Landess via EV  wrote:


I do think it's fair to give these things a chance in the public
marketplace, especially if it could be in a moderate passenger EV that
tries to highlight some of their strengths and not their weaknesses.  I
personally still would not consider buying one unless or until we see
extensive uninhibited feedback from unbiased drivers simply talking
about their experiences, good, bad or indifferent.

A part of the problem is that such motors have been mentioned various
times as integral to saving energy and being part of an important EV
project, and then, somehow, they just don't quite make it to where we
can consider buying it.

It's been a long time, but taking a quick look around I see these two
in-wheel hub motor providers are still in theory trying to make a go of
it.  There may be many more (perhaps someone can say who Aptera is using
if it isn't already clear), but just noting these two:
https://www.proteanelectric.com/
more than a decade ago, I seem to remember them issuing a white paper
that attempted to lay out some of the arguments in-favor-of, and address
some of the criticisms.  I don't know where things stand these days, but
taking a way-overly-quick look, it does seem at least they are still in
discussion with some automakers:
https://www.proteanelectric.com/news/

for example:

28.Apr.23
Dongfeng Motor Showcases All-Wheel Drive Luxury Sedan Powered By
ProteanDrive, Weeks After Announcing Version Driven By Two In-Wheel Motors


and we have this other blast-from-the-past:
https://www.saietta.com/about-us/
however, I don't know if they are presently trying to offer the in-wheel
product.  I don't presently see language about it on their page.


-- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, Hub motors.

[Paul Compton via EV]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 at 00:23, Josh Landess via EV  wrote:

> and we have this other blast-from-the-past:
> https://www.saietta.com/about-us/
> however, I don't know if they are presently trying to offer the in-wheel
> product.  I don't presently see language about it on their page.

The words "Saietta" and "product" shouldn't really appear in the same sentence!

They did sell the AGNI (Lynch) motor for a while, but the legal
partnership turned out not to actually exhist (Cedric and Arvind ended
up getting "paid off" with Lithium cells and PV panels).They'd stopped
servicing motors, or supply spares, even whilst still selling them.

They are masters of vapourware and hype. Mostly what they sell is
consultancy services and feasibility studies, the value of which is
somewhat questionable.

I was invited there for a tour and a meeting and offered contract work
as a result, but it soon became evident that they wouldn't pay a
reasonable day rate.
-- 
Paul Compton
www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, Hub motors.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

There are tons of hub motors used on e-bikes and stand-up scooters.   Most
of the time you will see that even these tiny motors aren't paired with
suspensions because then you get wheel hop.

If they are used on wheels that control your steering, then if you are
turning and hit a bump, you lose both traction and steering, and at least
for a short while the car goes where inertia says.  A wheel with a motor
installed has much more mass relative to the "sprung" portion of the
vehicle, so it will stay in the air much longer.

Using one on the rear of an Aptera wouldn't be too terrible, but they don't
do that, it's either only on the 2 front wheels, or all 3.   There is no
config with only one in the rear.

No thanks!

On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 5:07 PM Ryan Fulcher via EV 
wrote:

> The hub motors that Aptera are using are made by Elaphe, see these videos I
> posted earlier:
> >> On 7/8/2023 8:51 PM, Ryan Fulcher wrote:
> >>> https://youtu.be/CqPMtEIT3f4
> >>> https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8
>
> Also, in case anyone saw the recent national news story where an Aptera
> overheated... We got details later, that car was a Gamma prototype from 18
> months ago for mostly aesthetic demos.  So it never has any cooling system
> components installed, so it's actually done quite well for basically being
> run with no active thermal management to speak of...
>
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2023, 16:24 Josh Landess via EV  wrote:
>
> > I do think it's fair to give these things a chance in the public
> > marketplace, especially if it could be in a moderate passenger EV that
> > tries to highlight some of their strengths and not their weaknesses.  I
> > personally still would not consider buying one unless or until we see
> > extensive uninhibited feedback from unbiased drivers simply talking
> > about their experiences, good, bad or indifferent.
> >
> > A part of the problem is that such motors have been mentioned various
> > times as integral to saving energy and being part of an important EV
> > project, and then, somehow, they just don't quite make it to where we
> > can consider buying it.
> >
> > It's been a long time, but taking a quick look around I see these two
> > in-wheel hub motor providers are still in theory trying to make a go of
> > it.  There may be many more (perhaps someone can say who Aptera is using
> > if it isn't already clear), but just noting these two:
> > https://www.proteanelectric.com/
> > more than a decade ago, I seem to remember them issuing a white paper
> > that attempted to lay out some of the arguments in-favor-of, and address
> > some of the criticisms.  I don't know where things stand these days, but
> > taking a way-overly-quick look, it does seem at least they are still in
> > discussion with some automakers:
> > https://www.proteanelectric.com/news/
> >
> > for example:
> >
> > 28.Apr.23
> > Dongfeng Motor Showcases All-Wheel Drive Luxury Sedan Powered By
> > ProteanDrive, Weeks After Announcing Version Driven By Two In-Wheel
> Motors
> >
> >
> > and we have this other blast-from-the-past:
> > https://www.saietta.com/about-us/
> > however, I don't know if they are presently trying to offer the in-wheel
> > product.  I don't presently see language about it on their page.
> >
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, Hub motors.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

The hub motors that Aptera are using are made by Elaphe, see these videos I
posted earlier:
>> On 7/8/2023 8:51 PM, Ryan Fulcher wrote:
>>> https://youtu.be/CqPMtEIT3f4
>>> https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8

Also, in case anyone saw the recent national news story where an Aptera
overheated... We got details later, that car was a Gamma prototype from 18
months ago for mostly aesthetic demos.  So it never has any cooling system
components installed, so it's actually done quite well for basically being
run with no active thermal management to speak of...

On Wed, Jul 26, 2023, 16:24 Josh Landess via EV  wrote:

> I do think it's fair to give these things a chance in the public
> marketplace, especially if it could be in a moderate passenger EV that
> tries to highlight some of their strengths and not their weaknesses.  I
> personally still would not consider buying one unless or until we see
> extensive uninhibited feedback from unbiased drivers simply talking
> about their experiences, good, bad or indifferent.
>
> A part of the problem is that such motors have been mentioned various
> times as integral to saving energy and being part of an important EV
> project, and then, somehow, they just don't quite make it to where we
> can consider buying it.
>
> It's been a long time, but taking a quick look around I see these two
> in-wheel hub motor providers are still in theory trying to make a go of
> it.  There may be many more (perhaps someone can say who Aptera is using
> if it isn't already clear), but just noting these two:
> https://www.proteanelectric.com/
> more than a decade ago, I seem to remember them issuing a white paper
> that attempted to lay out some of the arguments in-favor-of, and address
> some of the criticisms.  I don't know where things stand these days, but
> taking a way-overly-quick look, it does seem at least they are still in
> discussion with some automakers:
> https://www.proteanelectric.com/news/
>
> for example:
>
> 28.Apr.23
> Dongfeng Motor Showcases All-Wheel Drive Luxury Sedan Powered By
> ProteanDrive, Weeks After Announcing Version Driven By Two In-Wheel Motors
>
>
> and we have this other blast-from-the-past:
> https://www.saietta.com/about-us/
> however, I don't know if they are presently trying to offer the in-wheel
> product.  I don't presently see language about it on their page.
>
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, Hub motors.

[Josh Landess via EV]

I do think it's fair to give these things a chance in the public 
marketplace, especially if it could be in a moderate passenger EV that 
tries to highlight some of their strengths and not their weaknesses.  I 
personally still would not consider buying one unless or until we see 
extensive uninhibited feedback from unbiased drivers simply talking 
about their experiences, good, bad or indifferent.


A part of the problem is that such motors have been mentioned various 
times as integral to saving energy and being part of an important EV 
project, and then, somehow, they just don't quite make it to where we 
can consider buying it.


It's been a long time, but taking a quick look around I see these two 
in-wheel hub motor providers are still in theory trying to make a go of 
it.  There may be many more (perhaps someone can say who Aptera is using 
if it isn't already clear), but just noting these two:

https://www.proteanelectric.com/
more than a decade ago, I seem to remember them issuing a white paper 
that attempted to lay out some of the arguments in-favor-of, and address 
some of the criticisms.  I don't know where things stand these days, but 
taking a way-overly-quick look, it does seem at least they are still in 
discussion with some automakers:

https://www.proteanelectric.com/news/

for example:

28.Apr.23
Dongfeng Motor Showcases All-Wheel Drive Luxury Sedan Powered By 
ProteanDrive, Weeks After Announcing Version Driven By Two In-Wheel Motors



and we have this other blast-from-the-past:
https://www.saietta.com/about-us/
however, I don't know if they are presently trying to offer the in-wheel 
product.  I don't presently see language about it on their page.



On 7/17/2023 1:28 PM, Ryan Fulcher via EV wrote:

Or maybe, and try to stick with me here, just maybe, this company that has
spent tons of money up front on research and development that has test
articles which achieve <100Wh/mile at freeway speeds has somehow engineered
high quality hub motors.  I don;t think there is anything in physics which
dictates that hub motors are impossible to "get right" for automotive yes.
Sure there are plenty of examples of poorly implemented or designed hub
motors in the past, Lordstown using (perhaps these same Elaphe?) motors but
on a multi ton pickup truck is an example of a poor implantation?  I can't
say for sure, and we have all heard the pros and cons of unsprung mass etc
etc.  But I am also hearing a lot of glossing over the benefits of such
motor packaging, which if you looked at the body design of the Aptera,
their offroad three motor version just can not work be bringing these
motors inboard.  Anyway, perhaps we will get to experience one first hand
within a year or so.  Just remember that everything was impossible until it
was not, so long as physics allows.

On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 4:51 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:


Then you call it a normal motor!

  And instead of making a lot of poles and super high currents (inefficient)
to get reasonable torque like most hub motors, you can put a gear reduction
in and now you are like most all production EVs.  Most use a single motor,
gear reduction, then a differential.  Some like the Lucid Air and the Tesla
Plaid use dual motors, one for each side, so just the motor and gear
reduction.  Then you get to do torque vectoring as well.

On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 4:18 PM Robert Johnston via EV 
wrote:


I wonder if you could take hub motors and mount them inboard, so instead

of

a differential you'd have back-to-back "hub"motors connected to
driveshafts. So you don't have the unsprung weight of hub motors, but you
do get the advantages of electronically controllable torque per wheel.

On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 at 16:58, Josh Landess via EV 
wrote:


it does sound like a shame they went with hub motors.  Otherwise, the
vehicle is something I could consider buying.  Well, I'll keep an eye
out for early owner reports and maybe if they seem "ok", I'll still
consider it someday.  Or maybe if the company gets harsh feedback from
owners it will redesign the vehicle to incorporate non-hub motors.


On 7/11/2023 4:57 AM, jerry freedomev wrote:

Hi Josh and All,
   Hub motors are bad for 2 reasons, they have little start up torque
and to make up for they require heavy powerful motors.
They are great in non suspension Ebikes, etc where it can be much
smaller as gets help with a leg push/pedal for starting up.
As a lightweight EVer I was wondering how bad the unsprung weight
would be with the Aptera.   Indications came from a Jay Leno drive

vid

in one the fixed camera showed it to be noticeable to me but not bad.
I'd keep it on smoother roads when possible as I do with my light

EVs.

I'd suggest a good seat, it shouldn't be a problem.  Too bad they

went

complicated when the original design with a geared rear motor instead
it would cost much less to build and better handling, more starting
power could be in production.
Jerry Dycus

On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 10:37:54 PM PDT,

Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, Hub motors.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

But there are physics problems.  The unsprung mass ratio is the biggest
one.  The lighter the vehicle the worse this problem becomes.   The wheel
is unable to hit a small bump and move up over it because it's got so much
mass as compared to a "normal" car.   When you hit a large bump and it
moves up, it stays up for a long time, and this means the tire is no longer
in contact with the road.  So you get a terrible ride quality, and can lead
to outright dangerous handling if these are in the front (steering) wheels,
as any wheel hop means you lose steering input.  Also, because the rest of
the car is lighter because it doesn't have any motors on board (sprung
mass), all the wheel movements affect the body even more, and since the
wheel is relatively heavy, it is able to impart much more force on the body.

There are other physics and mechanical issues, such as maintaining an
efficient gap is really difficult, and it's also exposed to much more
vibration and dirt.  Then there are the problems with mechanical brakes,
where do they go and how do they interface, etc, and you have heat from the
brakes bleeding into the motor, etc.

On Mon, Jul 17, 2023 at 1:29 PM Ryan Fulcher via EV 
wrote:

> Or maybe, and try to stick with me here, just maybe, this company that has
> spent tons of money up front on research and development that has test
> articles which achieve <100Wh/mile at freeway speeds has somehow engineered
> high quality hub motors.  I don;t think there is anything in physics which
> dictates that hub motors are impossible to "get right" for automotive yes.
> Sure there are plenty of examples of poorly implemented or designed hub
> motors in the past, Lordstown using (perhaps these same Elaphe?) motors but
> on a multi ton pickup truck is an example of a poor implantation?  I can't
> say for sure, and we have all heard the pros and cons of unsprung mass etc
> etc.  But I am also hearing a lot of glossing over the benefits of such
> motor packaging, which if you looked at the body design of the Aptera,
> their offroad three motor version just can not work be bringing these
> motors inboard.  Anyway, perhaps we will get to experience one first hand
> within a year or so.  Just remember that everything was impossible until it
> was not, so long as physics allows.
>
> On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 4:51 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
>
> > Then you call it a normal motor!
> >
> >  And instead of making a lot of poles and super high currents
> (inefficient)
> > to get reasonable torque like most hub motors, you can put a gear
> reduction
> > in and now you are like most all production EVs.  Most use a single
> motor,
> > gear reduction, then a differential.  Some like the Lucid Air and the
> Tesla
> > Plaid use dual motors, one for each side, so just the motor and gear
> > reduction.  Then you get to do torque vectoring as well.
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 4:18 PM Robert Johnston via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I wonder if you could take hub motors and mount them inboard, so
> instead
> > of
> > > a differential you'd have back-to-back "hub"motors connected to
> > > driveshafts. So you don't have the unsprung weight of hub motors, but
> you
> > > do get the advantages of electronically controllable torque per wheel.
> > >
> > > On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 at 16:58, Josh Landess via EV 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > it does sound like a shame they went with hub motors.  Otherwise, the
> > > > vehicle is something I could consider buying.  Well, I'll keep an eye
> > > > out for early owner reports and maybe if they seem "ok", I'll still
> > > > consider it someday.  Or maybe if the company gets harsh feedback
> from
> > > > owners it will redesign the vehicle to incorporate non-hub motors.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 7/11/2023 4:57 AM, jerry freedomev wrote:
> > > > > Hi Josh and All,
> > > > >   Hub motors are bad for 2 reasons, they have little start up
> torque
> > > > > and to make up for they require heavy powerful motors.
> > > > > They are great in non suspension Ebikes, etc where it can be much
> > > > > smaller as gets help with a leg push/pedal for starting up.
> > > > > As a lightweight EVer I was wondering how bad the unsprung weight
> > > > > would be with the Aptera.   Indications came from a Jay Leno drive
> > vid
> > > > > in one the fixed camera showed it to be noticeable to me but not
> bad.
> > > > > I'd keep it on smoother roads when possible as I do with my light
> > EVs.
> > > > > I'd suggest a good seat, it shouldn't be a problem.  Too bad they
> > went
> > > > > complicated when the original design with a geared rear motor
> instead
> > > > > it would cost much less to build and better handling, more starting
> > > > > power could be in production.
> > > > > Jerry Dycus
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 10:37:54 PM PDT, Josh Landess via EV
> > > > >  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I hadn't noticed that they were using the hub motors, thanks for
> > > > > pointing this 

Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, Hub motors.

[Ryan Fulcher via EV]

Or maybe, and try to stick with me here, just maybe, this company that has
spent tons of money up front on research and development that has test
articles which achieve <100Wh/mile at freeway speeds has somehow engineered
high quality hub motors.  I don;t think there is anything in physics which
dictates that hub motors are impossible to "get right" for automotive yes.
Sure there are plenty of examples of poorly implemented or designed hub
motors in the past, Lordstown using (perhaps these same Elaphe?) motors but
on a multi ton pickup truck is an example of a poor implantation?  I can't
say for sure, and we have all heard the pros and cons of unsprung mass etc
etc.  But I am also hearing a lot of glossing over the benefits of such
motor packaging, which if you looked at the body design of the Aptera,
their offroad three motor version just can not work be bringing these
motors inboard.  Anyway, perhaps we will get to experience one first hand
within a year or so.  Just remember that everything was impossible until it
was not, so long as physics allows.

On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 4:51 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:

> Then you call it a normal motor!
>
>  And instead of making a lot of poles and super high currents (inefficient)
> to get reasonable torque like most hub motors, you can put a gear reduction
> in and now you are like most all production EVs.  Most use a single motor,
> gear reduction, then a differential.  Some like the Lucid Air and the Tesla
> Plaid use dual motors, one for each side, so just the motor and gear
> reduction.  Then you get to do torque vectoring as well.
>
> On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 4:18 PM Robert Johnston via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > I wonder if you could take hub motors and mount them inboard, so instead
> of
> > a differential you'd have back-to-back "hub"motors connected to
> > driveshafts. So you don't have the unsprung weight of hub motors, but you
> > do get the advantages of electronically controllable torque per wheel.
> >
> > On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 at 16:58, Josh Landess via EV 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > it does sound like a shame they went with hub motors.  Otherwise, the
> > > vehicle is something I could consider buying.  Well, I'll keep an eye
> > > out for early owner reports and maybe if they seem "ok", I'll still
> > > consider it someday.  Or maybe if the company gets harsh feedback from
> > > owners it will redesign the vehicle to incorporate non-hub motors.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 7/11/2023 4:57 AM, jerry freedomev wrote:
> > > > Hi Josh and All,
> > > >   Hub motors are bad for 2 reasons, they have little start up torque
> > > > and to make up for they require heavy powerful motors.
> > > > They are great in non suspension Ebikes, etc where it can be much
> > > > smaller as gets help with a leg push/pedal for starting up.
> > > > As a lightweight EVer I was wondering how bad the unsprung weight
> > > > would be with the Aptera.   Indications came from a Jay Leno drive
> vid
> > > > in one the fixed camera showed it to be noticeable to me but not bad.
> > > > I'd keep it on smoother roads when possible as I do with my light
> EVs.
> > > > I'd suggest a good seat, it shouldn't be a problem.  Too bad they
> went
> > > > complicated when the original design with a geared rear motor instead
> > > > it would cost much less to build and better handling, more starting
> > > > power could be in production.
> > > > Jerry Dycus
> > > >
> > > > On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 10:37:54 PM PDT, Josh Landess via EV
> > > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I hadn't noticed that they were using the hub motors, thanks for
> > > > pointing this up.  I will be a bit more cautious before I consider
> > > > getting one, though I'll still keep open the possibility. On top of
> the
> > > > other risks they seem to be asking from their pioneer first
> customers,
> > > > that one seems like a notable one.
> > > >
> > > > On 7/9/2023 5:14 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
> > > > > Thanks for those informative videos. It still isn't real world
> data.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is a reason nobody is using wheel motors on highway capable
> > > > > vehicles.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 7/8/2023 8:51 PM, Ryan Fulcher wrote:
> > > > >> So this?
> > > > >> https://youtu.be/CqPMtEIT3f4
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Or this:
> > > > >> https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, 17:46 Alan Arrison via EV  >
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I was excited about the Aptera until I saw the hub motors.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I'll pass until I see some real world reliability
> demonstrated.
> > > > >>
> > > > > -- next part --
> > > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > > > URL:
> > > > >
> > > > <
> > >
> >
> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20230709/03646ce3/attachment.htm
> > > >
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > > > > No other addresses in TO and

Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, Hub motors.

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Then you call it a normal motor!

 And instead of making a lot of poles and super high currents (inefficient)
to get reasonable torque like most hub motors, you can put a gear reduction
in and now you are like most all production EVs.  Most use a single motor,
gear reduction, then a differential.  Some like the Lucid Air and the Tesla
Plaid use dual motors, one for each side, so just the motor and gear
reduction.  Then you get to do torque vectoring as well.

On Sun, Jul 16, 2023 at 4:18 PM Robert Johnston via EV 
wrote:

> I wonder if you could take hub motors and mount them inboard, so instead of
> a differential you'd have back-to-back "hub"motors connected to
> driveshafts. So you don't have the unsprung weight of hub motors, but you
> do get the advantages of electronically controllable torque per wheel.
>
> On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 at 16:58, Josh Landess via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > it does sound like a shame they went with hub motors.  Otherwise, the
> > vehicle is something I could consider buying.  Well, I'll keep an eye
> > out for early owner reports and maybe if they seem "ok", I'll still
> > consider it someday.  Or maybe if the company gets harsh feedback from
> > owners it will redesign the vehicle to incorporate non-hub motors.
> >
> >
> > On 7/11/2023 4:57 AM, jerry freedomev wrote:
> > > Hi Josh and All,
> > >   Hub motors are bad for 2 reasons, they have little start up torque
> > > and to make up for they require heavy powerful motors.
> > > They are great in non suspension Ebikes, etc where it can be much
> > > smaller as gets help with a leg push/pedal for starting up.
> > > As a lightweight EVer I was wondering how bad the unsprung weight
> > > would be with the Aptera.   Indications came from a Jay Leno drive vid
> > > in one the fixed camera showed it to be noticeable to me but not bad.
> > > I'd keep it on smoother roads when possible as I do with my light EVs.
> > > I'd suggest a good seat, it shouldn't be a problem.  Too bad they went
> > > complicated when the original design with a geared rear motor instead
> > > it would cost much less to build and better handling, more starting
> > > power could be in production.
> > > Jerry Dycus
> > >
> > > On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 10:37:54 PM PDT, Josh Landess via EV
> > >  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I hadn't noticed that they were using the hub motors, thanks for
> > > pointing this up.  I will be a bit more cautious before I consider
> > > getting one, though I'll still keep open the possibility. On top of the
> > > other risks they seem to be asking from their pioneer first customers,
> > > that one seems like a notable one.
> > >
> > > On 7/9/2023 5:14 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
> > > > Thanks for those informative videos. It still isn't real world data.
> > > >
> > > > There is a reason nobody is using wheel motors on highway capable
> > > > vehicles.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 7/8/2023 8:51 PM, Ryan Fulcher wrote:
> > > >> So this?
> > > >> https://youtu.be/CqPMtEIT3f4
> > > >>
> > > >> Or this:
> > > >> https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, 17:46 Alan Arrison via EV 
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> I was excited about the Aptera until I saw the hub motors.
> > > >>
> > > >> I'll pass until I see some real world reliability demonstrated.
> > > >>
> > > > -- next part --
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> > >
> > > > ___
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, Hub motors.

[Robert Johnston via EV]

I wonder if you could take hub motors and mount them inboard, so instead of
a differential you'd have back-to-back "hub"motors connected to
driveshafts. So you don't have the unsprung weight of hub motors, but you
do get the advantages of electronically controllable torque per wheel.

On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 at 16:58, Josh Landess via EV  wrote:

> it does sound like a shame they went with hub motors.  Otherwise, the
> vehicle is something I could consider buying.  Well, I'll keep an eye
> out for early owner reports and maybe if they seem "ok", I'll still
> consider it someday.  Or maybe if the company gets harsh feedback from
> owners it will redesign the vehicle to incorporate non-hub motors.
>
>
> On 7/11/2023 4:57 AM, jerry freedomev wrote:
> > Hi Josh and All,
> >   Hub motors are bad for 2 reasons, they have little start up torque
> > and to make up for they require heavy powerful motors.
> > They are great in non suspension Ebikes, etc where it can be much
> > smaller as gets help with a leg push/pedal for starting up.
> > As a lightweight EVer I was wondering how bad the unsprung weight
> > would be with the Aptera.   Indications came from a Jay Leno drive vid
> > in one the fixed camera showed it to be noticeable to me but not bad.
> > I'd keep it on smoother roads when possible as I do with my light EVs.
> > I'd suggest a good seat, it shouldn't be a problem.  Too bad they went
> > complicated when the original design with a geared rear motor instead
> > it would cost much less to build and better handling, more starting
> > power could be in production.
> > Jerry Dycus
> >
> > On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 10:37:54 PM PDT, Josh Landess via EV
> >  wrote:
> >
> >
> > I hadn't noticed that they were using the hub motors, thanks for
> > pointing this up.  I will be a bit more cautious before I consider
> > getting one, though I'll still keep open the possibility. On top of the
> > other risks they seem to be asking from their pioneer first customers,
> > that one seems like a notable one.
> >
> > On 7/9/2023 5:14 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
> > > Thanks for those informative videos. It still isn't real world data.
> > >
> > > There is a reason nobody is using wheel motors on highway capable
> > > vehicles.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 7/8/2023 8:51 PM, Ryan Fulcher wrote:
> > >> So this?
> > >> https://youtu.be/CqPMtEIT3f4
> > >>
> > >> Or this:
> > >> https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, 17:46 Alan Arrison via EV 
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I was excited about the Aptera until I saw the hub motors.
> > >>
> > >> I'll pass until I see some real world reliability demonstrated.
> > >>
> > > -- next part --
> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > > URL:
> > >
> > <
> http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20230709/03646ce3/attachment.htm
> >
> > > ___
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> > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >
> > >
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Re: [EVDL] EV Grin doubled, Hub motors.

[Josh Landess via EV]

it does sound like a shame they went with hub motors.  Otherwise, the 
vehicle is something I could consider buying.  Well, I'll keep an eye 
out for early owner reports and maybe if they seem "ok", I'll still 
consider it someday.  Or maybe if the company gets harsh feedback from 
owners it will redesign the vehicle to incorporate non-hub motors.



On 7/11/2023 4:57 AM, jerry freedomev wrote:

Hi Josh and All,
  Hub motors are bad for 2 reasons, they have little start up torque 
and to make up for they require heavy powerful motors.
They are great in non suspension Ebikes, etc where it can be much 
smaller as gets help with a leg push/pedal for starting up.
As a lightweight EVer I was wondering how bad the unsprung weight 
would be with the Aptera.   Indications came from a Jay Leno drive vid 
in one the fixed camera showed it to be noticeable to me but not bad.  
I'd keep it on smoother roads when possible as I do with my light EVs.
I'd suggest a good seat, it shouldn't be a problem.  Too bad they went 
complicated when the original design with a geared rear motor instead 
it would cost much less to build and better handling, more starting 
power could be in production.

Jerry Dycus

On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 10:37:54 PM PDT, Josh Landess via EV 
 wrote:



I hadn't noticed that they were using the hub motors, thanks for
pointing this up.  I will be a bit more cautious before I consider
getting one, though I'll still keep open the possibility. On top of the
other risks they seem to be asking from their pioneer first customers,
that one seems like a notable one.

On 7/9/2023 5:14 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
> Thanks for those informative videos. It still isn't real world data.
>
> There is a reason nobody is using wheel motors on highway capable
> vehicles.
>
>
> On 7/8/2023 8:51 PM, Ryan Fulcher wrote:
>> So this?
>> https://youtu.be/CqPMtEIT3f4
>>
>> Or this:
>> https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 8, 2023, 17:46 Alan Arrison via EV 
>> wrote:
>>
>>     I was excited about the Aptera until I saw the hub motors.
>>
>>     I'll pass until I see some real world reliability demonstrated.
>>
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> 


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>
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