Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb
Från: EV för Hoegberg via EV Skickat: den 5 december 2017 06:23 Till: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Kopia: Hoegberg Ämne: Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb I just dont get it.. why burn the good Toyota brand like this? To me it seems like a big ZeppelinSeppuku move. :-/ ..if it really consumes 4 times (!!) more solar energy per mile (?), then it is just crazy to push a product like the Mirai in year 2018? Bonus video! Tony Seba, he did this 8 minute talk about hydrogen vs battery storage for ev:s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23lz9ercqvA / J ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb
I really dont get this , but many many people now talk about this instead of ev:s: Toyota here(Sweden) tries hard to push the Mirai as the "future" of cars, (yes it seems to be a nice hybrd EV, but the battery is ultra small!!) , So, Mirai..a car that might be using something like 4 times(?) as much solar panel installations m2 to run the same distances as the Hyundai ionic electric (they are about the same size cars) , Toyoda runs multiple tv-ads here about the thing, even many at the same night, also full page ads in EV-magazines, and so on. -"Mirai, the electric car that charges as you drive it!", or the fantastic(?) "-H2O is the new Co2!" -slogan.. it seems to be, in total, 4 hydrogen stations here in the country, so you maybe get about 200 km range from that pump, if you want to make it back again. ..and you dont, :-) because the pump is not in/close to the city. For example here in the capital city (Stockholm) , you probably at the moment need to go all the way up to the Arlanda airport to fill it up, and then go back home again.. Hmm. (yes this point can impove a lot and millions of filling stations like the wall outlets might be the future (hmm,, no) , but can the car really improve enough? or the electrolyzer?) / J Från: EV för Michael Ross via EV Skickat: den 29 oktober 2017 17:37 Till: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Kopia: Michael Ross Ämne: Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs. There certainly is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision to work on HFCVs. A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its potential. He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale. I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice. He was an early adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster.. He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a workable solution. Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of environment and habitat, etc. At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good. You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles. But I think it would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on. When you scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly. It is bad enough the 200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its production and use. I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages. I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move. BentMIke On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote: > > > https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/ > Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward with > hydrogen anyway > Oct. 26th 2017 Fred Lambert > > [image > https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/ > electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg? > quality=82&w=1024#038;strip=all&w=1600 > > https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_ > hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82&strip=all > ] > > For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over > battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put > the > Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry. > > Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell > “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing > in > the technology. > > Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as > an > energy storage system for vehicles. > > For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense > compared to battery-powered vehicles. > > Between hydrogen production, distri
Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb
Right, those are all comments related to EVs. For an alternative to pump storage, batteries, and other means to store non-peak-use-time renewables production, and at a scale that eliminates ALL non renewable generation continentally or globally), hydrogen becomes much more attractive even given the inefficiencies (and they are as bad as 50%). This is because storing it at that scale can be safe (underground for instance or in tanks not subject to embrittlement), and more practical. Then if you had all this hydrogen it could be useful for other applications, like HFCEVs. As far as safety goes in EVs, you got to choose your poison. Anyway you look at it you are creating a potentially dangerous energy density, whether it be chemical, or electrical, or kinetic, or whatever. We already do gasoline and various flammable gasses. (You can't smell LNG without methyl mercaptan to make it stinky.) Shorting and melting batteries suck. Mistreat a big flywheel and Euler's moments send off in a difficult to control fashion. They are all "bad" when they get away from you. Stationary applications are far easier and can be sequestered. On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 6:45 PM, paul dove via EV wrote: > Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage > device. In addition, it has many technical drawbacks. > > I just think that they're extremely sillyit's just very difficult to > make hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you say > took a solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack directly, > compared to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen, compress hydrogen...it > is about half the efficiency." > > He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that it's > extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an invisible flame. > > Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion. > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV > wrote: > > > > I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs. There > certainly > > is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy > which > > it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and > transport > > medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's > decision > > to work on HFCVs. > > > > A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in > > mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable > > energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its > > potential. He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale. > > > > I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice. He was an > early > > adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff > > like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster.. > > > > He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a > > workable solution. Too much material mined and the resultant ruination > of > > environment and habitat, etc. > > > > At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good. > > You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense > it > > with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it > > liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles. But I think it > > would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for > > pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous > holes > > for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for > > electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on. When > you > > scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly. It is bad enough > the > > 200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it > > would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its > > production and use. > > > > I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials > > needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important > advantages. > > > > I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power > > vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move. > > > > BentMIke > > > > > > > >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/ > >> Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward > with > >> hydrogen anyway > >> Oct. 26th 2017 Fred Lambert > >> > >> [image > >> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/ > >> electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg? > >> quality=82&w=1024#038;strip=all&w=1600 > >> > >> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_ > >> hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82&strip=all > >> ] > >> > >> For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over > >> battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put > >> the > >> Japan
Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb
There is an interesting point of overlap between hydrogen energy storage and battery energy storage. The nickel-hydrogen battery has been used for decades. They are capable of very long life, and high energy density, and can work in extreme environments. The International Space Station uses them. The hydrogen is stored in a pressure vessel, like the tank for a fuel cell. The nimh cell is a variation of the nickel-hydrogen cell. Rather than being stored in a separate pressure tank, the H2 is adsorbed onto the spongy metal hydride electrode inside the cell itself. -- There is a computer disease that anybody who works with computers knows about. It's very serious, and interferes completely with your work. The trouble with computers is that you 'play' with them! (Richard Feynman) -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb
Hey Mark, I’m not arguing with you! I was trying to relate what I heard Elon say. I could be wrong but he seemed to be talking in general not just focused on EVs. We used Hydrogen in the Space Shuttle and they even had a Hydrogen fuel cell on board but it you notice Space X used RP1. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 31, 2017, at 1:37 AM, Mark Abramowitz wrote: > > Inefficient energy storage device? How so? > > Compared to batteries, they can store energy much longer. Batteries are in > their sweet spot for energy storage for a number of hours, hydrogen for > longer periods. Batteries are for small scale storage, hydrogen can be used > up to grid level storage. > > Musk comments that it's more efficient to directly charge a battery. Maybe > that's true, but there are a long list of advantages and disadvantages of > hydrogen/battery hybrids AND batteries-only. So use the correct tool for the > job. For the auto, it depends what's best for you. To say otherwise is to > suggest everyone should buy a compact, or an SUV, or ... > > I think *that's* pretty silly. > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 30, 2017, at 3:45 PM, paul dove via EV wrote: >> >> Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage device. >> In addition, it has many technical drawbacks. >> >> I just think that they're extremely sillyit's just very difficult to >> make hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you say took >> a solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack directly, >> compared to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen, compress hydrogen...it >> is about half the efficiency." >> >> He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that it's >> extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an invisible flame. >> >> Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion. >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV wrote: >>> >>> I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs. There certainly >>> is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which >>> it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport >>> medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision >>> to work on HFCVs. >>> >>> A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in >>> mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable >>> energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its >>> potential. He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale. >>> >>> I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice. He was an early >>> adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff >>> like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster.. >>> >>> He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a >>> workable solution. Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of >>> environment and habitat, etc. >>> >>> At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good.. >>> You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it >>> with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it >>> liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles. But I think it >>> would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for >>> pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes >>> for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for >>> electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on. When you ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb
Hydrogen might be useful for grid storage. Looking at roughly 50% efficiency is a big hit but if you have surplus energy and no other practical way to store it, H2 is an alternative. Pumped storage, on the other hand, is estimated to be 70-80% efficient. A better alternative if you can create lakes at two different levels - or use abandoned mine caverns. And just building a better grid will help too, so that energy can be used immediately, even at long distances. But if you're creating H2 from methane or natural gas to use in an FCEV, that's silly. Just burn the natural gas in an ICE. More efficient. Peri -- Original Message -- From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" Cc: "Mark Abramowitz" Sent: 30-Oct-17 11:37:28 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb Inefficient energy storage device? How so? Compared to batteries, they can store energy much longer. Batteries are in their sweet spot for energy storage for a number of hours, hydrogen for longer periods. Batteries are for small scale storage, hydrogen can be used up to grid level storage. Musk comments that it's more efficient to directly charge a battery. Maybe that's true, but there are a long list of advantages and disadvantages of hydrogen/battery hybrids AND batteries-only. So use the correct tool for the job. For the auto, it depends what's best for you. To say otherwise is to suggest everyone should buy a compact, or an SUV, or ... I think *that's* pretty silly. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 30, 2017, at 3:45 PM, paul dove via EV wrote: Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage device. In addition, it has many technical drawbacks. I just think that they're extremely sillyit's just very difficult to make hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you say took a solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack directly, compared to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen, compress hydrogen...it is about half the efficiency." He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that it's extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an invisible flame. Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV wrote: I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs. There certainly is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision to work on HFCVs. A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its potential. He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale. I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice. He was an early adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster.. He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a workable solution. Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of environment and habitat, etc. At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good. You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles. But I think it would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on. When you ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb
On 31 October 2017 at 06:37, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: > Inefficient energy storage device? How so? In the way that efficiency is defined; Energy out of the system, divided by energy into the system, multiplied by 100. > Compared to batteries, they can store energy much longer. Batteries are in > their sweet spot for energy storage for a number of hours, hydrogen for > longer periods. Batteries are for small scale storage, hydrogen can be used > up to grid level storage. Where you have excess energy that would otherwise not be utilised, then even a low efficiency storage system can make sense. It still makes more sense to use a more efficient storage technology if the technolgy costs are comparable. Redox batteries for example. -- Paul Compton www.morini-mania.co.uk www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb
Inefficient energy storage device? How so? Compared to batteries, they can store energy much longer. Batteries are in their sweet spot for energy storage for a number of hours, hydrogen for longer periods. Batteries are for small scale storage, hydrogen can be used up to grid level storage. Musk comments that it's more efficient to directly charge a battery. Maybe that's true, but there are a long list of advantages and disadvantages of hydrogen/battery hybrids AND batteries-only. So use the correct tool for the job. For the auto, it depends what's best for you. To say otherwise is to suggest everyone should buy a compact, or an SUV, or ... I think *that's* pretty silly. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 30, 2017, at 3:45 PM, paul dove via EV wrote: > > Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage device. > In addition, it has many technical drawbacks. > > I just think that they're extremely sillyit's just very difficult to make > hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you say took a > solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack directly, compared > to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen, compress hydrogen...it is about > half the efficiency." > > He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that it's > extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an invisible flame. > > Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion. > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV wrote: >> >> I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs. There certainly >> is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which >> it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport >> medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision >> to work on HFCVs. >> >> A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in >> mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable >> energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its >> potential. He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale. >> >> I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice. He was an early >> adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff >> like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster.. >> >> He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a >> workable solution. Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of >> environment and habitat, etc. >> >> At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good. >> You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it >> with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it >> liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles. But I think it >> would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for >> pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes >> for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for >> electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on. When you ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb
Actually, Elon said that hydrogen was an inefficient energy storage device. In addition, it has many technical drawbacks. I just think that they're extremely sillyit's just very difficult to make hydrogen and store it and use it in a car," Musk said. "If you say took a solar panel and use that...to just charge a battery pack directly, compared to split water, take hydrogen, dump oxygen, compress hydrogen...it is about half the efficiency." He also added that you can't tell when hydrogen is leaking and that it's extremely flammable. When it catches fire, hydrogen has an invisible flame. Not to mention hydrogen embrittlement and corrosion. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 29, 2017, at 11:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV wrote: > > I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs. There certainly > is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which > it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport > medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision > to work on HFCVs. > > A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in > mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable > energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its > potential. He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale. > > I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice. He was an early > adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff > like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster.. > > He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a > workable solution. Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of > environment and habitat, etc. > > At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good. > You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it > with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it > liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles. But I think it > would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for > pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes > for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for > electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on. When you > scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly. It is bad enough the > 200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it > would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its > production and use. > > I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials > needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages. > > I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power > vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move. > > BentMIke > > > >> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote: >> >> >> >> https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/ >> Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward with >> hydrogen anyway >> Oct. 26th 2017 Fred Lambert >> >> [image >> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/ >> electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg? >> quality=82&w=1024#038;strip=all&w=1600 >> >> https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_ >> hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82&strip=all >> ] >> >> For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over >> battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put >> the >> Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry. >> >> Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell >> “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing >> in >> the technology. >> >> Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as >> an >> energy storage system for vehicles. >> >> For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense >> compared to battery-powered vehicles. >> >> Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell vehicle >> ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle >> getting >> its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the hydrogen. >> >> The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered >> vehicle. >> >> The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car. You >> can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car >> can >> take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour. >> >> But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be >> refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight. >> >> That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward >> when comparing the two technologies. >> >> Surprisingly, Yoshikazu Tanaka,
Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb
I certainly concur with your analysis: fuel cells are not a good option for cars, but large scale energy storage is a much more likely possibility On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Michael Ross via EV wrote: > I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs. There certainly > is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which > it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport > medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision > to work on HFCVs. > > A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in > mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable > energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its > potential. He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale. > > I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice. He was an early > adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff > like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster.. > > He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a > workable solution. Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of > environment and habitat, etc. > > At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good. > You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it > with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it > liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles. But I think it > would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for > pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes > for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for > electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on. When you > scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly. It is bad enough the > 200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it > would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its > production and use. > > I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials > needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages. > > I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power > vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move. > > BentMIke > > > > On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV > wrote: > > > > > > > https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/ > > Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward > with > > hydrogen anyway > > Oct. 26th 2017 Fred Lambert > > > > [image > > https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/ > > electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg? > > quality=82&w=1024#038;strip=all&w=1600 > > > > https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_ > > hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82&strip=all > > ] > > > > For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over > > battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put > > the > > Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry. > > > > Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell > > “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing > > in > > the technology. > > > > Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as > > an > > energy storage system for vehicles. > > > > For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense > > compared to battery-powered vehicles. > > > > Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell > vehicle > > ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle > > getting > > its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the > hydrogen. > > > > The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered > > vehicle. > > > > The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car. > You > > can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car > > can > > take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour. > > > > But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be > > refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight. > > > > That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward > > when comparing the two technologies. > > > > Surprisingly, Yoshikazu Tanaka, the chief engineer in charge of Toyota’s > > Mirai, admitted to Reuters this week that plug-in cars make more sense: > > > > “Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly > > by > > plugging in,” > > > > But Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada adds that they don’t see the two > > technologies competing and that they are not giving up on hydrogen (yet): > > > > “We don’t really see an adversary ‘zero-sum’ relationship between the > > EV > > (electric vehicle) and t
Re: [EVDL] OT Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right'> that fcvs are incredibly dumb
I believe Musk has only slammed H2 in the context of EVs. There certainly is a great public misunderstanding that H2 can be a source of energy which it absolutely is not, rather than its true role as a storage and transport medium. I suspect this misunderstanding gave momentum to Toyota's decision to work on HFCVs. A colleague of mine did a very nice proposal for his masters project in mechanical engineering, he was exploring how could we store renewable energy to smooth out its circadian oscillations and not waste its potential. He was trying to do this at a continental or global scale. I will also note that he had no ax to grind or prejudice. He was an early adopter of EVs, buying a 1st generation Leaf back when nobody did stuff like that east of CA and the only Tesla was a Roadster.. He concluded that building enough batteries at this scale was not a workable solution. Too much material mined and the resultant ruination of environment and habitat, etc. At this scale hydrogen - even given the inefficiencies - looks very good. You can make really large tanks to store hydrogen, pipe it, and dispense it with far less collateral damage than with batteries. Once you have it liquefied you could find some utility for it in vehicles. But I think it would be more prominent used as an alternative to damming up rivers for pump storage, nuclear waste generating plants, digging multitudinous holes for copper, aluminum, cobalt, manganese, lithium, polyesters for electrolytes, and plastics for electrode separators,. and so on. When you scale up all that battery content it gets very ugly. It is bad enough the 200 gigafactories needed just for Ev-izing the world, let alone what it would take to store the rest of the energy that is intermittent in its production and use. I won't belabor this further, but it you start adding up the materials needed and the costs involved H2 starts to have very important advantages. I do think Toyota is out of phase in their pursuit of hydrogen to power vehicles, but it isn't a total dufus move. BentMIke On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 6:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote: > > > https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/ > Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward with > hydrogen anyway > Oct. 26th 2017 Fred Lambert > > [image > https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/ > electric-car-vs-hydrogen-fuel-cell1-e1509049014192.jpg? > quality=82&w=1024#038;strip=all&w=1600 > > https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/hybrid_ > hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e1461680641695.jpg?quality=82&strip=all > ] > > For years, Toyota has been betting on hydrogen fuel cell over > battery-electric vehicles for its zero-emission vehicle strategy. It put > the > Japanese automaker behind in the electric transition in the industry. > > Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell > “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing > in > the technology. > > Musk has often publicly commented on his dislike of hydrogen fuel cell as > an > energy storage system for vehicles. > > For most people, the physics of fuel cell vehicles make little sense > compared to battery-powered vehicles. > > Between hydrogen production, distribution, and storage, a fuel cell vehicle > ends up being just a third as efficient as a battery-powered vehicle > getting > its power from the same grid as the electrolysis plant making the hydrogen. > > The entire process is just extremely more complex than a battery-powered > vehicle. > > The refueling speed is virtually the only advantage of a hydrogen car. You > can refuel a hydrogen car in about 5 minutes while a battery-powered car > can > take hours to charge and even the fastest systems take over an hour. > > But that gap is getting closer every year and hydrogen cars can’t be > refueled at home, while any electric car can charge overnight. > > That’s the argument that Elon Musk and most EV enthusiasts bring forward > when comparing the two technologies. > > Surprisingly, Yoshikazu Tanaka, the chief engineer in charge of Toyota’s > Mirai, admitted to Reuters this week that plug-in cars make more sense: > > “Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly > by > plugging in,” > > But Toyota chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada adds that they don’t see the two > technologies competing and that they are not giving up on hydrogen (yet): > > “We don’t really see an adversary ‘zero-sum’ relationship between the > EV > (electric vehicle) and the hydrogen car. We’re not about to give up on > hydrogen electric fuel-cell technology at all.” > > They want to keep pushing the Mirai, which has been a poor performer. They > only managed to sell a few as compliance cars in California despite the > generous incentives. > > Electrek’s Take > > He is not wrong that the two technologies don’t compete. They don’t compete > in the minds of potential customers, but they compet