Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

On Apr 29, 2015, at 5:56 PM, Ben Goren  wrote:
> 
>> On Apr 28, 2015, at 11:55 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Apr 28, 2015, at 11:43 AM, Tom Martin via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The state in turn sent you a 'Certificate' of title.  The auto you bought 
>>> and paid for is the property of the state.
>> 
>> Huh?
>> 
>> The Certificate of Title establishes *you* as owner of the car. Not the 
>> state.
> 
> I think Tom might be coming from a certain Libertarian perspective that says 
> that, if the State can confiscate or otherwise render valueless your 
> property, especially if you stop paying taxes ("rent" in those circles), then 
> it's the state that owns whatever it is.
> 
> I haven't heard this applied to a vehicular title, but it's certainly a 
> common theme with property taxes.
> 
> b&

Hadn't heard that, but I would think that the argument wouldn't require that a 
Certificate of Title be issued by the state. Just stop registering your car, or 
don't pay your taxes.

I used to work for an environmental group where the head of our office wasn't 
paying his taxes as a protest or something. Unfortunately, he didn't take taxes 
out of his check on the organization's side either. We had to pay a huge bill, 
and almost had to close the office to boot. Sheesh!
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Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 28, 2015, at 11:55 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV  wrote:

> On Apr 28, 2015, at 11:43 AM, Tom Martin via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> The state in turn sent you a 'Certificate' of title.  The auto you bought 
>> and paid for is the property of the state.
> 
> Huh?
> 
> The Certificate of Title establishes *you* as owner of the car. Not the state.

I think Tom might be coming from a certain Libertarian perspective that says 
that, if the State can confiscate or otherwise render valueless your property, 
especially if you stop paying taxes ("rent" in those circles), then it's the 
state that owns whatever it is.

I haven't heard this applied to a vehicular title, but it's certainly a common 
theme with property taxes.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

On Apr 28, 2015, at 11:43 AM, Tom Martin via EV  wrote:
> 
> The state in turn sent you a 'Certificate' of title.  The auto you bought and 
> paid for is the property of the state.

Huh?

The Certificate of Title establishes *you* as owner of the car. Not the state.


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Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[Roland via EV]

   
Did you know that you can get a secondary VIN number for you conversion, 
modification or completely built up vehicle.  To get the secondary VIN number 
depends of the percentage of change that you made to a existing vehicle.  In my 
case, the change had to be over 50%. 

 

The secondary VIN number includes the company or you who did the conversion and 
the documents reference number that listed all the manufacturer and equipment 
that was use for the conversion.  

 

If you are building a vehicle not using OEMs parts, then you will be issue a 
new VIN number.  If you made more than 50% change of a OEMs vehicle, then the 
secondary VIN number will also have the primary VIN number to refer to. 

 

To get a secondary VIN number for a conversion, you contact the MVD Title 
Department and request a new title change.  They will then send a Stage Two 
Inspector which will inspect every part, equipment and modification you made.  
The stage 2 inspector happens to be a car guy which also builds these type of 
cars. 

 

You have to have all the bill of sales, on the original vehicle and all the 
equipment you install in your vehicle.  Back in 1977 the original OEMs vehicle 
cost about $5000.00.  The conversion cost about $15,000.00, so I met the 50% 
change in cost.

 

It wasn't till 2000, than I made the mechanical and body change that also met 
the 50% change in body equipment which included a entire new passenger 
compartment, custom front end of the vehicle, new suspension by Air Ride 
Technologies, chassis and driveline components by Mark and William Enterprises 
which are far superior then the OEMs components using 4000 lbs thrust rating 
components. 

 

Modified and box reinforce the frame so the motor can be disconnected from the 
accessory drive units, and then can be drop straight down with the transmission 
and drive components on to a dolly in with a hour.

 

On your new title change, you can put a value of your vehicle.  If you do value 
a lot higher than the original OEMs value and want it to insure for that value, 
than you will have to get a Surety Bond for that value.  If someone else is 
liable for the damages to your vehicle, then they have to pay the amount that 
is listed on the surety bond.  

 

Roland

 

 


- Original Message - 

From: Michael Ross via EV<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

To: EVDL Administrator<mailto:evp...@drmm.net> ; Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> 

Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2015 7:10 AM

Subject: Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs



I expect this to be a pendulum swing, you can understand the laptop folks
getting nervous after the firestorm about laptops flaming on on the living
room floor - if you don't tamper well. and it is exceedingly likely a
tamper can go wrong given the wild world of Li ion batteries...as a product
designer for 25 years I get it.

On the other hand after 7 years designing aftermarket auto parts, I know
there is congressional legislation to the effect that the automakers will
not do anything to make the aftermarket fail.  We are supposed to be able
to work on our cars.

There is a push pull.

OEMs want control, but they don't want the service and parts business of
older cars (nor of newer cars for that matter), and they do a crap job of
it. As far as the aftermarket part makers go, EVs aren't on their map yet.

Lobby your congressmen.  That is how this works.





On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:56 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:

> On 27 Apr 2015 at 23:59, David Rees via EV wrote:
>
> > The lithium battery controller on the LEAF is this way. If you want to
> > swap an entire battery pack out, you have to be able to reprogram the
> > LBC. Otherwise you have to open up the pack and either swap out all
> > the modules or the LBC.
>
> It sounds like they're following the model of some laptop computers.  A
> couple of years ago I was looking into the idea of rebuilding an old laptop
> battery with fresh cells.  I found a writeup online from someone who had
> tried it - and failed.
>
> It seems that the manufacturer took a page from the printer manufacturers'
> books.  The engineers built a counter into the BMS.  When it had turned
> around some designated number of amp-hours, the BMS simply quit allowing
> the
> lithium cells to charge, regardless of their actual condition.
>
> The BMS isn't available as a spare part, though there are some (possibly
> dodgy) Chinese generic substitutes.
>
> This is not quite the same as the Leaf battery model cited, I guess, but
> it's a similar principle: make it more difficult for the independent
> mechanic or private owner to service the battery.  The next step in the
> Leaf
> is to chip every individual cell, I suppose.
>
> And then there's Renault'

Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 28, 2015, at 1:56 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> This is not quite the same as the Leaf battery model cited, I guess, but 
> it's a similar principle: make it more difficult for the independent 
> mechanic or private owner to service the battery.

It also is making the idea of buying a Leaf or other battery to power a 
conversion decidedly less appealing. Even if the battery you buy is stripped of 
all that nonsense, there's the moral question of financially supporting that 
sort of "ecosystem" while non-restrictive alternatives are available.

It's looking more and more like the PHEV Mustang is going to get something like 
an A123 pack that I solder up myself

b&
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Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[Michael Ross via EV]

I expect this to be a pendulum swing, you can understand the laptop folks
getting nervous after the firestorm about laptops flaming on on the living
room floor - if you don't tamper well. and it is exceedingly likely a
tamper can go wrong given the wild world of Li ion batteries...as a product
designer for 25 years I get it.

On the other hand after 7 years designing aftermarket auto parts, I know
there is congressional legislation to the effect that the automakers will
not do anything to make the aftermarket fail.  We are supposed to be able
to work on our cars.

There is a push pull.

OEMs want control, but they don't want the service and parts business of
older cars (nor of newer cars for that matter), and they do a crap job of
it. As far as the aftermarket part makers go, EVs aren't on their map yet.

Lobby your congressmen.  That is how this works.





On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:56 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 27 Apr 2015 at 23:59, David Rees via EV wrote:
>
> > The lithium battery controller on the LEAF is this way. If you want to
> > swap an entire battery pack out, you have to be able to reprogram the
> > LBC. Otherwise you have to open up the pack and either swap out all
> > the modules or the LBC.
>
> It sounds like they're following the model of some laptop computers.  A
> couple of years ago I was looking into the idea of rebuilding an old laptop
> battery with fresh cells.  I found a writeup online from someone who had
> tried it - and failed.
>
> It seems that the manufacturer took a page from the printer manufacturers'
> books.  The engineers built a counter into the BMS.  When it had turned
> around some designated number of amp-hours, the BMS simply quit allowing
> the
> lithium cells to charge, regardless of their actual condition.
>
> The BMS isn't available as a spare part, though there are some (possibly
> dodgy) Chinese generic substitutes.
>
> This is not quite the same as the Leaf battery model cited, I guess, but
> it's a similar principle: make it more difficult for the independent
> mechanic or private owner to service the battery.  The next step in the
> Leaf
> is to chip every individual cell, I suppose.
>
> And then there's Renault's leased EV battery that stops accepting charges
> if
> you don't keep paying the monthly rental.
>
> And how about the entire EVs that you can't own, but only lease, from the
> EV1 and Honda EV Plus to the current Fit EV?  It seems as if the new
> generation of EVs was practically born into this restrictive model.  :-(
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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>
>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 27 Apr 2015 at 23:59, David Rees via EV wrote:

> The lithium battery controller on the LEAF is this way. If you want to
> swap an entire battery pack out, you have to be able to reprogram the
> LBC. Otherwise you have to open up the pack and either swap out all
> the modules or the LBC.

It sounds like they're following the model of some laptop computers.  A 
couple of years ago I was looking into the idea of rebuilding an old laptop 
battery with fresh cells.  I found a writeup online from someone who had 
tried it - and failed.  

It seems that the manufacturer took a page from the printer manufacturers' 
books.  The engineers built a counter into the BMS.  When it had turned 
around some designated number of amp-hours, the BMS simply quit allowing the 
lithium cells to charge, regardless of their actual condition.

The BMS isn't available as a spare part, though there are some (possibly 
dodgy) Chinese generic substitutes.

This is not quite the same as the Leaf battery model cited, I guess, but 
it's a similar principle: make it more difficult for the independent 
mechanic or private owner to service the battery.  The next step in the Leaf 
is to chip every individual cell, I suppose.

And then there's Renault's leased EV battery that stops accepting charges if 
you don't keep paying the monthly rental.

And how about the entire EVs that you can't own, but only lease, from the 
EV1 and Honda EV Plus to the current Fit EV?  It seems as if the new 
generation of EVs was practically born into this restrictive model.  :-(

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[David Rees via EV]

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 7:52 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV
 wrote:
> It is happening much more subtly than that.  I recently needed a new throttle 
> body for my 15 year old Volvo.  I generally get all my work done at a small 
> independent shop.  They keep up on all the latest diagnostic equipment, but 
> they weren't sure their equipment would be able to program and "flash" the 
> new throttle body to the car.  Just in case, they recommended I have the work 
> done at the dealer.  The part is programmed with the VIN of the vehicle, so 
> it will only work on that car.

The lithium battery controller on the LEAF is this way. If you want to
swap an entire battery pack out, you have to be able to reprogram the
LBC. Otherwise you have to open up the pack and either swap out all
the modules or the LBC.

-Dave
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Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[Michael Ross via EV]

"That's got basically nothing to do with locking people out of their own
vehicles, and everything to do with basic engineering -- materials science
especially, as well as new manufacturing techniques to permit the use of
stronger, lighter, and more efficient materials and designs."

Yes, that is correct I was saying something new -  that there is a good
side and a bad side to everything.  I might have to build kit cars or some
other pursuit.  If my main transportation lasted 400K and required no
effort on my part, I would like that.

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 12:05 AM, Ben Goren  wrote:

> On Apr 27, 2015, at 8:52 PM, Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > being the devil's advocate...
> >
> > This is clearly not great for the poor or the DIY'r, but the new car
> buyer
> > may have much better cars to choose from, I expect instead of 200K miles
> > being common, 100K was a great thing when I was young, I am sure with EVs
> > there will be an expectation of 300K and 400K life.
>
> That's got basically nothing to do with locking people out of their own
> vehicles, and everything to do with basic engineering -- materials science
> especially, as well as new manufacturing techniques to permit the use of
> stronger, lighter, and more efficient materials and designs.
>
> My 1964 1/2 Mustang that's going to become a plugin hybrid? It's going to
> make more power, get better mileage, and have a better chance of lasting
> longer than basically anything you could buy from the dealer in the '60s.
> The block itself may well wind up having been manufactured in the
> '60s...but the rotating assembly is going to be either forged or nodular
> iron, it's going to have fuel injection, and so on, giving the drivetrain
> basically all the advantages of both '60s and modern technology and none of
> the disadvantages of either.
>
> The auto manufacturers are just following in the footsteps of the inkjet
> printer manufacturers: sell the printers for the price of a full set of ink
> cartridges...and sell the cartridges at some sort of insane
> thousand-to-one-or-so markup. And put a $0.0001 chip in the cartridges that
> ensures that you can't refill them and can only use the manufacturer's
> cartridges in the printer.
>
> My advice to car buyers?
>
> Don't buy anything model year 1966 or newer. If you have a newer car that
> left the factory withOUT computer controls, don't sell it.
>
> Either that, or just get it out of your head right now any notion that you
> actually own the car
>
> b&
>



-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

This issue was recently discussed in an a Wired article about John Deer
tractors:
http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/

It is also related to the 'right to repair' legislative efforts taking
place in NY and MN:
http://www.digitalrighttorepair.org/fair-repair/

In short, you may own a hunk of metal, but have no rights to actually
repair it or operate it because the control/ECU are licensed and
copyrighted, and/or need a special password to access. If aftermarket parts
or you bypass the password, you may run afoul of the DMCA.



On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 11:05 PM, Ben Goren via EV 
wrote:

> On Apr 27, 2015, at 8:52 PM, Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > being the devil's advocate...
> >
> > This is clearly not great for the poor or the DIY'r, but the new car
> buyer
> > may have much better cars to choose from, I expect instead of 200K miles
> > being common, 100K was a great thing when I was young, I am sure with EVs
> > there will be an expectation of 300K and 400K life.
>
> That's got basically nothing to do with locking people out of their own
> vehicles, and everything to do with basic engineering -- materials science
> especially, as well as new manufacturing techniques to permit the use of
> stronger, lighter, and more efficient materials and designs.
>
> My 1964 1/2 Mustang that's going to become a plugin hybrid? It's going to
> make more power, get better mileage, and have a better chance of lasting
> longer than basically anything you could buy from the dealer in the '60s.
> The block itself may well wind up having been manufactured in the
> '60s...but the rotating assembly is going to be either forged or nodular
> iron, it's going to have fuel injection, and so on, giving the drivetrain
> basically all the advantages of both '60s and modern technology and none of
> the disadvantages of either.
>
> The auto manufacturers are just following in the footsteps of the inkjet
> printer manufacturers: sell the printers for the price of a full set of ink
> cartridges...and sell the cartridges at some sort of insane
> thousand-to-one-or-so markup. And put a $0.0001 chip in the cartridges that
> ensures that you can't refill them and can only use the manufacturer's
> cartridges in the printer.
>
> My advice to car buyers?
>
> Don't buy anything model year 1966 or newer. If you have a newer car that
> left the factory withOUT computer controls, don't sell it.
>
> Either that, or just get it out of your head right now any notion that you
> actually own the car
>
> b&
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Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Apr 27, 2015, at 8:52 PM, Michael Ross via EV  wrote:

> being the devil's advocate...
> 
> This is clearly not great for the poor or the DIY'r, but the new car buyer
> may have much better cars to choose from, I expect instead of 200K miles
> being common, 100K was a great thing when I was young, I am sure with EVs
> there will be an expectation of 300K and 400K life.

That's got basically nothing to do with locking people out of their own 
vehicles, and everything to do with basic engineering -- materials science 
especially, as well as new manufacturing techniques to permit the use of 
stronger, lighter, and more efficient materials and designs.

My 1964 1/2 Mustang that's going to become a plugin hybrid? It's going to make 
more power, get better mileage, and have a better chance of lasting longer than 
basically anything you could buy from the dealer in the '60s. The block itself 
may well wind up having been manufactured in the '60s...but the rotating 
assembly is going to be either forged or nodular iron, it's going to have fuel 
injection, and so on, giving the drivetrain basically all the advantages of 
both '60s and modern technology and none of the disadvantages of either.

The auto manufacturers are just following in the footsteps of the inkjet 
printer manufacturers: sell the printers for the price of a full set of ink 
cartridges...and sell the cartridges at some sort of insane 
thousand-to-one-or-so markup. And put a $0.0001 chip in the cartridges that 
ensures that you can't refill them and can only use the manufacturer's 
cartridges in the printer.

My advice to car buyers?

Don't buy anything model year 1966 or newer. If you have a newer car that left 
the factory withOUT computer controls, don't sell it.

Either that, or just get it out of your head right now any notion that you 
actually own the car

b&
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Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[Michael Ross via EV]

being the devil's advocate...

This is clearly not great for the poor or the DIY'r, but the new car buyer
may have much better cars to choose from, I expect instead of 200K miles
being common, 100K was a great thing when I was young, I am sure with EVs
there will be an expectation of 300K and 400K life.

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 11:40 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> The mix-and-match that DC motor fans can do in their EVs is actually not
> all
> that common.  Even back in the 1990s, Solectria wouldn't sell an inverter
> or
> induction motor individually.  They'd only sell them as a set.
>
> I think Siemens was / is the same.  There are probably still hundreds of
> those Siemens motor spares meant for an early version of a Ford Ranger EV
> floating round, with no inverters to drive them (though I think some
> enterprising EV hobbyist eventually came up with a hack for that).
>
> But at least you can still have your choice of other EV components - so
> far.
> I can see a time coming when ANY "unauthorized" change in an ICEV's
> drivetrain will cause the computer to permanently immobilize the car.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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>


-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell

michael.e.r...@gmail.com

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Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

The mix-and-match that DC motor fans can do in their EVs is actually not all 
that common.  Even back in the 1990s, Solectria wouldn't sell an inverter or 
induction motor individually.  They'd only sell them as a set.  

I think Siemens was / is the same.  There are probably still hundreds of 
those Siemens motor spares meant for an early version of a Ford Ranger EV 
floating round, with no inverters to drive them (though I think some 
enterprising EV hobbyist eventually came up with a hack for that).

But at least you can still have your choice of other EV components - so far. 
I can see a time coming when ANY "unauthorized" change in an ICEV's 
drivetrain will cause the computer to permanently immobilize the car.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] its your car, not theirs

[Mike Nickerson via EV]

It is happening much more subtly than that.  I recently needed a new throttle 
body for my 15 year old Volvo.  I generally get all my work done at a small 
independent shop.  They keep up on all the latest diagnostic equipment, but 
they weren't sure their equipment would be able to program and "flash" the new 
throttle body to the car.  Just in case, they recommended I have the work done 
at the dealer.  The part is programmed with the VIN of the vehicle, so it will 
only work on that car.

That is the way this is being done with cars built within the last decade or 
two.  At least for major components of the drive train.

Mike



On April 27, 2015 8:36:31 AM MDT, Electric Blue auto convertions  via EV 
 wrote:
>Can the auto builder stop you from working on your car???, They can pas
>that kind of assanighn bill if they want, but who will enforce it? .
>Its your car/truck, you paid for it, and you over paid for it to begin
>with . The aftermarket lobby will shut it down faster than a wet fart
>on a hot day . Following it to the letter, a oil change not with the
>builders specks will be against the law? LOLOL clowns, thats whats this
>is all about, what clown can make the most noise . sounds more and more
>like " Atlas shrugged" , The Govt will tell you what to drive, where
>you can drive, What time you can drive, If you can work on your car,
>where to buy parts and supplies , Then you will have to over pay for a
>"special, never seen on this planet", spark plug . or gizmo or do-dad
>they demand you replace at the builders dealer garage 
>
>It may happen, if the Feds get their way, and they almost do..."for the
>good of the people" BS is what I say, they can kiss my ass 
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