Re: A minimally conscious program

On 4/28/2021 9:42 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 8:15 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 4/28/2021 4:40 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 7:25 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 8:15 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 4/28/2021 4:40 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 7:25 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On

Re: A minimally conscious program

On 4/28/2021 4:40 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 7:25 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 4/28/2021 3:17 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 5:51 PM John Clark mailto:johnkcl...@gmail.com>>

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 7:25 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 4/28/2021 3:17 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 5:51 PM John Clark wrote: > >> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 4:48 PM Terren Suydam >> wrote: >> >> *>>>

Re: A minimally conscious program

On 4/28/2021 3:17 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 5:51 PM John Clark > wrote: On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 4:48 PM Terren Suydam mailto:terren.suy...@gmail.com>> wrote: />>> testimony of experience constitutes facts about

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 5:51 PM John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 4:48 PM Terren Suydam > wrote: > > *>>> testimony of experience constitutes facts about consciousness.* >>> >>> >>> >> Sure I agree, provided you first accept that consciousness is the >>> inevitable byproduct of

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 4:48 PM Terren Suydam wrote: *>>> testimony of experience constitutes facts about consciousness.* >> >> >> >> Sure I agree, provided you first accept that consciousness is the >> inevitable byproduct of intelligence >> > > *> I hope the irony is not lost on anyone that

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 4:08 PM John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 3:50 PM Terren Suydam > wrote: > > *> testimony of experience constitutes facts about consciousness.* > > > Sure I agree, provided you first accept that consciousness is the > inevitable byproduct of intelligence > I

Re: A minimally conscious program

On 4/28/2021 12:09 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 2:02 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 4/28/2021 11:39 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: > > I'm interested in a theory of consciousness that can tell me, among

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 3:50 PM Terren Suydam wrote: *> testimony of experience constitutes facts about consciousness.* Sure I agree, provided you first accept that consciousness is the inevitable byproduct of intelligence > >> I am far more interested in understanding the mental activity of

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 3:15 PM John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 2:39 PM Terren Suydam > wrote: > > >> Forget BF Skinner, this is more general than consciousness or >>> behavior. If you want to explain Y at the most fundamental level from first >>> principles you can't start with "X

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 3:27 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > >>Consistency is not the same as identity. If what you and I mean by the >> words "red" and "green" were inverted then both of us would still say >> tomatoes are red and leaves are

Re: A minimally conscious program

On 4/28/2021 12:03 PM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 2:41 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: /> one can discover whether your reports of green qualia correspond to something consistent in our shared world,/

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 2:39 PM Terren Suydam wrote: >> Forget BF Skinner, this is more general than consciousness or behavior. >> If you want to explain Y at the most fundamental level from first >> principles you can't start with "X produces Y'' and then use X as part of >> your explanation of

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 2:02 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 4/28/2021 11:39 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: > > > > I'm interested in a theory of consciousness that can tell me, among > > other things, how it is that we have conscious

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 3:02 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 4/28/2021 11:39 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: > > > > I'm interested in a theory of consciousness that can tell me, among > > other things, how it is that we have conscious

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 2:41 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: *> one can discover whether your reports of green qualia correspond to > something consistent in our shared world,* Consistency is not the same as identity. If what you and I mean by

Re: A minimally conscious program

On 4/28/2021 11:39 AM, Terren Suydam wrote: I'm interested in a theory of consciousness that can tell me, among other things, how it is that we have conscious experiences when we dream. Don't you wonder about that? No especially.  It's certainly consistent with consciousness being a

Re: A minimally conscious program

On 4/28/2021 9:06 AM, John Clark wrote: /> If we can explain why, for example, you see stars if you bash the back of your head,/ It might be able to explain why I say "I see green stars" but that's not what you're interested in, you want to know why I subjectively experience the

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 12:06 PM John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 11:17 AM Terren Suydam > wrote: > > >> We should always pay attention to all relevant *BEHAVIOR**,* including >>> *BEHAVIOR* such as noises produced by the mouths of other people. >>> >> >> *> Got it. Accounts of

Re: A minimally conscious program

Am Di, 27. Apr 2021, um 04:07, schrieb 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List: > It certainly seems likely that any brain or AI that can perceive sensory > events and form an inner narrative and memory of that is conscious in a sense > even if they are unable to act. This is commonly the

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 11:17 AM Terren Suydam wrote: >> We should always pay attention to all relevant *BEHAVIOR**,* including >> *BEHAVIOR* such as noises produced by the mouths of other people. >> > > *> Got it. Accounts of subjective experience are not the salient facts in > these

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 10:15 AM John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 8:32 AM Terren Suydam > wrote: > > *> John - do you have any response?* >> > > If you insist. > > >> It's not hard to make progress in consciousness research, it's impossible. >>> >>> *So we should ignore

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 10:37 AM Jason Resch wrote: *> But this doesn't mean we can't develop theories of consciousness* Truer words were never spoken! You can find 6.02 * 10^23 different consciousness theories on the internet . > *and gather empirical evidence for them. * How? What

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 9:15 AM John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 8:32 AM Terren Suydam > wrote: > > *> John - do you have any response?* >> > > If you insist. > > >> It's not hard to make progress in consciousness research, it's impossible. >>> >>> *So we should ignore

Re: A minimally conscious program

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 8:32 AM Terren Suydam wrote: *> John - do you have any response?* > If you insist. >> It's not hard to make progress in consciousness research, it's >>> impossible. >>> >> >> *So we should ignore experiments where you stimulate the brain and the >> subject reports

Re: A minimally conscious program

John - do you have any response? On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 9:38 AM Terren Suydam wrote: > > > On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 7:22 AM John Clark wrote: > >> On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 1:08 AM Terren Suydam >> wrote: >> >> *> consciousness is harder to work with than intelligence, because it's >>> harder