[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I would note: CO2 will accumulate after a period of time. Hyperventilating before holding your breath can minimize that, purging CO2. So, were the meditators doing breathing exercises before their meditation session? If not, it would be an interesting experiment to see if those doing the breathing exercises first had longer breath suspensions. I'm not aware of any breathing exercises taught to TMers that involve prolonged hyperventilation. The TM-Sidhis program involves a very brief practice of fast pranayama, but there's no indication in the study that those tested, if they were siddhas, were doing TM for the experiment along with the rest of their program. The pranayama exercise taught to plain-vanilla TMers would involve, if anything, *hypo*ventilation.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_reply@ wrote: with all respect, Mr. Vaj, you appear to be stretching the facts to fit your own bias. You use words like largely and Many and none of which, and associate enlightenment among TM practitioners as ranting. This post of yours seems more about confirming your bias, which appears to be that you don't care for TM (fair enough), than sharing any actual information. Vaj was never interested in propagating actual information. Vaj, and The Turq, are here to spread misinformation about TM or anything else that actually works. Largely due to an inferiority complex towards real experience versus their outdated Buddhist practises. Seeing how MMY believed that the BUddha taught TM, that's an odd thing to say. Lawson Can't recall Maharishi ever say that, though He always spoke very highly of the Buddha.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
On Sep 30, 2008, at 4:02 AM, nablusoss1008 wrote: Seeing how MMY believed that the BUddha taught TM, that's an odd thing to say. Lawson Can't recall Maharishi ever say that, though He always spoke very highly of the Buddha. The MIU curriculum used to claim the Surangama sutra was talking about TM. Bevan Morris even gives a (horrendous) lecture on it. Mahesh also claimed that one of the surest ways to block awakening was to be dabble with celestial beings.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
On Sep 29, 2008, at 11:58 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: how many measurements would you like to take? Since Pure Consciousness is unmanifest(we are talking about -pure consciousness- aren't we?), all that we can measure with instruments is one or another particular correlates of pure consciousness, and since the state of pure consciousness as experienced by the awareness is continuous and without boundaries, beyond time and space, which correlate do you want to measure? It is a waste of time if you ask me. Even if you believe pure consciousness is unmanifest, it still has to interact with a relative human nervous system.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/reprint/44/2/133.pdf Whether or not this is real pure consciousness or not, who can say? Lawson Yup, that is the bottom line. All we know is that some transcendental meditators suspend breathing for a period of time, most for some seconds and one person for an entire minute and there is a correlation with a mental experience they describe as pure consciousness. These brief holding periods were not extensive and even untrained healthy people can hold their breath for up to a minute. Because the time periods of apnea were not long, I am not surprised to see no adverse or compensatory effects. I would note:CO2 will accumulate after a period of time. Hyperventilating before holding your breath can minimize that, purging CO2. So, were the meditators doing breathing exercises before their meditation session? If not, it would be an interesting experiment to see if those doing the breathing exercises first had longer breath suspensions. It would be interesting to read accounts of divers who are experienced at apnea. What kind of mental experiences do they have?
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 29, 2008, at 11:58 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: how many measurements would you like to take? Since Pure Consciousness is unmanifest(we are talking about -pure consciousness- aren't we?), all that we can measure with instruments is one or another particular correlates of pure consciousness, and since the state of pure consciousness as experienced by the awareness is continuous and without boundaries, beyond time and space, which correlate do you want to measure? It is a waste of time if you ask me. Even if you believe pure consciousness is unmanifest, it still has to interact with a relative human nervous system. If it were unmanifest, how could it interact? The physiological correlates are of a state of consciousness that is sometimes called pure conscousness. Whether or not this has anything to do with some universal unmanifest state is of course, impossible to say, any more than you can prove that miracles are caused by God rather than merely by some higher order creature who can manipulate reality in ways we don't understand. Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/reprint/44/2/133.pdf Whether or not this is real pure consciousness or not, who can say? Lawson Yup, that is the bottom line. All we know is that some transcendental meditators suspend breathing for a period of time, most for some seconds and one person for an entire minute and there is a correlation with a mental experience they describe as pure consciousness. These brief holding periods were not extensive and even untrained healthy people can hold their breath for up to a minute. Because the time periods of apnea were not long, I am not surprised to see no adverse or compensatory effects. I would note:CO2 will accumulate after a period of time. Hyperventilating before holding your breath can minimize that, purging CO2. So, were the meditators doing breathing exercises before their meditation session? If not, it would be an interesting experiment to see if those doing the breathing exercises first had longer breath suspensions. It would be interesting to read accounts of divers who are experienced at apnea. What kind of mental experiences do they have? Don't know, but your comment on CO2 is spot on. Kesterson (another pure consciousness researcher) found that there was no sign of reduced O2 consumption during those periods, but there WERE signs of slightly increased CO2 levels. He speculated that whatever state of consciousness was induced by meditation practice (remember, these were *spontaneous* breath suspensions) was slightly changing CO2 sensitivity as a side effect of the state of consciousness. IOW, the significance of the breath suspension was that it was merely an obvious side effect of the altered state, not some profound mystical correlation with the universe or something. Now, yogic tradition holds that some breath exercises may induce samadhi, and perhaps for something of the same reason, but again, its held to be a *spontaneous* phenomenon, rather than some attempt to stop breathing. The breathing exercise might not even directly alter CO2 sensitivity, but alter some neurological pattern in the libmic system, setting up up the same inhibitory feedback loops in the thalamus that TM is thought to. Or.. t might be some combination of CO2 sensitivity and related neural functioning that induces this situation. BTW, in the most extreme case in that study, the breath suspensions were up to a minute, and the total breath suspension state was more than 50% of the total meditation time. That should be seen as somewhat unusual, given there was little or no compensatory breathing afterwards and that the subjects were all in good health. Another point or so to keep in mind: measurement of airflow indicates that they were not holding their breath and that here was still a 1-2 hz respiration rate with exceedingly reduced breath flow. My own belief: the diaphram relaxes during this time (as evidenced by a slow inhalation over the entire suspension period in another study), while the beating of the heart against the lungs creates enough compression/ decompression to cause air flow at the observed rate. Yogic tradition holds that someone enlghtened can remain in this state indefinitely while meditating. Given the above minute respiration, I don't see this claim as implausible. Recall that it is the *state of consciousness* that is supposed to be the important thing here. Travis' model (taken, perhaps, from Austin's model in his books about the physiology of Zen) predicts that TM induces feedback loops that inhibit the free flow of data from the senses through the thalamus to the cortex and from the cortex through the thalamus BACK into the cortex. IOW, a state of no thought as understood by many Western physiologists. At the same time, the brain remains in an alert state, so all that is going on is normal alpha EEG restful alertness activity, but on a very large scale. Since the neurons of the brain are always attempting to optimize their connectivity regardless of what state of consciousness someone is in, samadhi can be seen as large scale optimization of the brain in an alert state without sensory or mental content. The primary place where this optimization seems to take place is in the frontal lobes, which is where we get our sense of self, so the meditator's impression that this state is pure self is not unexpected. The finding that this idling state in the frontal lobes can persist in outside of meditation in long-term meditators can certainly explain why they claim to have an omnipresent Self that is not overwhelmed by daily activity. Fun stuff. Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Sep 29, 2008, at 11:58 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: how many measurements would you like to take? Since Pure Consciousness is unmanifest(we are talking about -pure consciousness- aren't we?), all that we can measure with instruments is one or another particular correlates of pure consciousness, and since the state of pure consciousness as experienced by the awareness is continuous and without boundaries, beyond time and space, which correlate do you want to measure? It is a waste of time if you ask me. Even if you believe pure consciousness is unmanifest, it still has to interact with a relative human nervous system. If it were unmanifest, how could it interact? The physiological correlates are of a state of consciousness that is sometimes called pure conscousness. Whether or not this has anything to do with some universal unmanifest state is of course, impossible to say, any more than you can prove that miracles are caused by God rather than merely by some higher order creature who can manipulate reality in ways we don't understand. Lawson Pure consciousness needs a vehicle through which to manifest itself, express itself. Our mission (should we choose to accept it...) is to uncover that pure consciousness, the Tao, the flow, grace, Being, so that our awareness reflects it at all times; we become ourselves, our universal essence. We become a living embodiment of pure consciousness, and then what is there to measure? From the tops of our heads to the tips of our toes, we are pure consciousness, living and breathing. So we can measure absolutely anything about ourselves once having reached this state of grace, the Tao, pure consciousness revealed, and it shows us what? That the physical correlations to one established in infinity are infinite. If we are not established in the Tao, or Being, measuring the bodily operation of one who is offers us no help us at all. These attempts by scientists to discover physical correlates to one who is established in pure consciousness, in Being, only keep the mind busy, nothing more.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
On Sep 30, 2008, at 3:20 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: We become a living embodiment of pure consciousness, and then what is there to measure? Sorry to break into your flake-fest here Ms. Enlightened--and not to belabor the point--but as long as the physical body remains you cannot negate the physical. From my POV pure consciousness is an illusion and construct projected into and onto awareness by the natural refresh rate of our neurons. I don't make the mistake of thinking of it as real or even substantial. From the tops of our heads to the tips of our toes, we are pure consciousness, living and breathing. So we can measure absolutely anything about ourselves once having reached this state of grace, the Tao, pure consciousness revealed, and it shows us what? Well presumably if you really had this experience you'd have had the experiential vision of all the experiences contained in the collective wheels of energies in the human microcosm. Is that your claim? That the physical correlations to one established in infinity are infinite. Oh puleeze. Save it for Oprah. If we are not established in the Tao, or Being, measuring the bodily operation of one who is offers us no help us at all. These attempts by scientists to discover physical correlates to one who is established in pure consciousness, in Being, only keep the mind busy, nothing more. Ah, so you negate the physical. Another fundamental error in you View.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
We become a living embodiment of pure consciousness, and then what is there to measure? Vaj wrote: Sorry to break into your flake-fest here Ms. Enlightened--and not to belabor the point--but as long as the physical body remains you cannot negate the physical. From my POV pure consciousness is an illusion and construct projected into and onto awareness by the natural refresh rate of our neurons. Sorry to break into your flake-test here Mr. Enlightened, but it's the neurons that are projected onto the pure consciousness. I don't make the mistake of thinking of it as real or even substantial. You got it just backwards, Vaj - the pure consciousness is the real - it's the neurons that are the illusion. There's nothing substantial about neurons. There is no substance - only change. You'd be knowing this if you read the scriptures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lankavatara_Sutra
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 30, 2008, at 3:20 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: We become a living embodiment of pure consciousness, and then what is there to measure? Sorry to break into your flake-fest here Ms. Enlightened--and not to belabor the point--but as long as the physical body remains you cannot negate the physical. From my POV pure consciousness is an illusion and construct projected into and onto awareness by the natural refresh rate of our neurons. I don't make the mistake of thinking of it as real or even substantial. It sounds to me Mr. Vaj that you are saying you are dense, and only interested in being dense; that you identify yourself solely on that plane of existence. No argument there. I will never deny my physical existence as long as I inhabit a body, this body. I embrace the world, though it is through the expression of pure consciousness that I enjoy it so, from its dense and gross manifestation, throughout all the myriad and subtle levels of creation, of Being. I just plain enjoy it all.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lack of fucking will make you spacey. Good fucking makes you very centered and present. Also an occasional chicken sandwich before or after fucking will make you grounded too. Not during? :-) Bhairitu's and Vaj's and Pete's points are well taken. Spaciness or feeling spaced out is not being spiritual; it's the opposite of being spiritual. --- On Sun, 9/28/08, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] TMers: Do You Space Out? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 7:51 PM It may well be that many great Indian saints who were said to go into spontaneous samadhi were just spacing out. We know how Indians are and they'll make such overblown observations. Brigante said a while back that on his TTC that Maharishi said Indians were like Americans on drugs. I think, unless they have been exposed and have had to adapt to western culture (such as Indians who attend universities her to get advanced degrees) they often have the emotional maturity of an 11 year old. But that also suggests a vata disposition. Meditation of any kind, as ayurveda states, usually increases the ether element. It is to help you rise about the muddy earth element. But what if you are already a space case. I would lay the spaciness more to bad vegetarian diet or having such a diet if it is inappropriate for your constitution. Remember that many Indian yogis use ashwaganda and brahmi in conjunction with their practice which helps tone the nervous system and ground out. Yogis know the importance of grounding out whereas too many western meditators just want to fly away like a leaf. How many TM'ers you know need lots of rest indeed up to 10 to 12 hours of sleep? Whereas I see progress if I only need 4 to 6 hours of sleep. I also wonder if westerners because of their dispositions accomplish just as much in a fraction of the time meditating that an Indian does? BTW, of that list I'm sure you'll find a lot of aging boomers who have never meditated relating to those symptoms. Maybe it's the fluoride in the water? They're known as senior moments and sometimes by balancing the doshas they start to go away. Vaj wrote: Great article from John Knapp. Transcendental Meditators: Do You Space Out? Posted by John M. Knapp, LMSW at 9/25/2008 03:46:00 PM Transcendental Meditation Dissociation In my cult counseling practice, I'm often asked about dissociation. Many people don't know what it is. Or if they experience it. In TM, we called it spacing out, blissing out, being a space cadet, or many other dismissive names. But what did we mean? And what's the big problem with it? A lot of people enjoy blissing out. Basically, dissociation is any gap in the major identity or cognitive functions: awareness, memory, conscious thought, certain language abilities, and of course identity itself. We all dissociate sometimes. We daydream, get lost in thought, stare off into space, forget for a moment where we are, or lose track of our surroundings when deeply involved with a book. But, in extreme cases, our main personality disappears during the gap â and another alter may take over. This is full-blown Dissociative Identity Disorder, what used to be called Multiple Personality Disorder. This is rare. The point is dissociation exists on a spectrum, from mild and pleasurable to severely disabling. Dissociation is only a problem when it causes pain or difficulty functioning in daily life. Some cultic studies scholars believe cultic organizations teach trance states, a form of dissociation, because they increase suggestibility â with obvious benefits to groups that control and indoctrinate members. (Not all scholars agree with the link between trance and suggestibility. This article offers evidence against the suggestibility hypothesis.) Purposefully teaching dissociation to increase suggestibility seems likely to me. Every cultic group I've worked with promoted dissociation through trance, meditation, Ericksonian or classic hypnosis, chanting, speaking in tongues, group criticism sessions, singing hymns for hours, observing lengthy religious rituals, protracted group workshops, lengthy baffling group instruction, interminable incomprehensible videos, yoga, or other methods. This doesn't mean dissociative techniques can't be pleasurable â or beneficial. But like so many good things in life, they may be perverted by leaders with dishonorable intentions. And like salt, a little adds flavor and is necessary for life. But a lot can
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (snip) What you are describing here, is the onset of 'Witnessing'... 'Spacing out' means you aren't having any thoughts, but are still aware. Since in the beginning, this act of being aware, without thinking, needs to be stablized, and over time, it becomes stabilized. You begin to question, 'Who is experiencing when I am 'spaced out' or when I'm not thinking any thoughts. I don't have any thoughts of the past or future, so where am I in time. This space I'm in seems unusually unfamiliar, and I can't seem to catagorize it in the same way I used to, so where am I. Cosmic Consciousness can at first be disconcerting. Krishna Murti expressed this a lot in his writings. He was experiencing CC. So, this whole idea of being 'spaced out' is something of the 'old consciousness. And as has been said, it does take time to become familiar and stabilize. Eckhart Tolle, expresses this clearly in his writings, and he describes that he spent years, 'spaced out, without any thoughts, and until he became more and more stabilized and familiar with this new and evolved state. He claimed his primary change in consciousness was that he no longer had any thoughts. Maharishi also used to talk about when he was spending time in Uttar Kashi, when he retreated and was living there, that he could have as little as one thought an hour. This is something our culture is completely unfamiliar with and something which is not acknowledged, as it is not well understood, by comtempary psychiatry. Our culture recognizes only constant striving, thinking of the past, worrying about the future, anything to take one out of the Being of the Present. Eckhart Tolle I feel has the clearest take on this matter. But, at times, it is easy to fall into depression, if there is an imbalance in the nervous system, by not listening to what it needs in terms of food, exercise and other 'grounding' activities. So, being 'spaced out' is not a clear way of analysing what is happening, but more of an old way of saying, what your elementary teacher used to say, get back to work and stop day-dreaming and looking out the window. Our whole culture is 'spaced out' right now, and we are entering a period where time will become regarded in more of a relative way, in agreement with Einsteins Special Theory of Relativity. Einstein was describing reality at a greater level of understanding. He would probably be described, when absorbed in his intuitive understandings as being really, really spaced-out! R.G. Points very well taken. This is exactly what the so- called Buddhists on this list, Vaj and the Turq refuse to see. Because if what you claim is true then TM is a very effective method indeed. And for Vaj and the Turq that's a very serious challenge, a truth they seem to spend hours every day here on FFL trying to denounce.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
On Sep 28, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Robert wrote: What you are describing here, is the onset of 'Witnessing'... 'Spacing out' means you aren't having any thoughts, but are still aware. Since in the beginning, this act of being aware, without thinking, needs to be stablized, and over time, it becomes stabilized. You begin to question, 'Who is experiencing when I am 'spaced out' or when I'm not thinking any thoughts. What has been romanticized in the TM org as witnessing is more typically what they call either moodmaking or what psychiatrists call dissociation. TM-style witnessing is largely fictional and shares few of the traditional criteria of sakshi or the witness-consciousness. It was an easy selling point since so many people got vata'd out by the practice. Many TMers were/are obsessed with it and thereby cultivate this dissociative state. The actual establishment of witness- consciousness actually has some quite remarkable attributes none of which we ever here of in TM circles, even among those ranting on their own claimed enlightenment. Go figure.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 28, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Robert wrote: What you are describing here, is the onset of 'Witnessing'... 'Spacing out' means you aren't having any thoughts, but are still aware. Since in the beginning, this act of being aware, without thinking, needs to be stablized, and over time, it becomes stabilized. You begin to question, 'Who is experiencing when I am 'spaced out' or when I'm not thinking any thoughts. What has been romanticized in the TM org as witnessing is more typically what they call either moodmaking or what psychiatrists call dissociation. TM-style witnessing is largely fictional and shares few of the traditional criteria of sakshi or the witness-consciousness. It was an easy selling point since so many people got vata'd out by the practice. Many TMers were/are obsessed with it and thereby cultivate this dissociative state. The actual establishment of witness- consciousness actually has some quite remarkable attributes none of which we ever here of in TM circles, even among those ranting on their own claimed enlightenment. Go figure. with all respect, Mr. Vaj, you appear to be stretching the facts to fit your own bias. You use words like largely and Many and none of which, and associate enlightenment among TM practitioners as ranting. This post of yours seems more about confirming your bias, which appears to be that you don't care for TM (fair enough), than sharing any actual information.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 28, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Robert wrote: What you are describing here, is the onset of 'Witnessing'... 'Spacing out' means you aren't having any thoughts, but are still aware. Since in the beginning, this act of being aware, without thinking, needs to be stablized, and over time, it becomes stabilized. You begin to question, 'Who is experiencing when I am 'spaced out' or when I'm not thinking any thoughts. What has been romanticized in the TM org as witnessing is more typically what they call either moodmaking or what psychiatrists call dissociation. TM-style witnessing is largely fictional and shares few of the traditional criteria of sakshi or the witness-consciousness. It was an easy selling point since so many people got vata'd out by the practice. Many TMers were/are obsessed with it and thereby cultivate this dissociative state. The actual establishment of witness- consciousness actually has some quite remarkable attributes none of which we ever here of in TM circles, even among those ranting on their own claimed enlightenment. Go figure. Well, hmmm.. What's there to rant about? Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Sep 28, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Robert wrote: What you are describing here, is the onset of 'Witnessing'... 'Spacing out' means you aren't having any thoughts, but are still aware. Since in the beginning, this act of being aware, without thinking, needs to be stablized, and over time, it becomes stabilized. You begin to question, 'Who is experiencing when I am 'spaced out' or when I'm not thinking any thoughts. What has been romanticized in the TM org as witnessing is more typically what they call either moodmaking or what psychiatrists call dissociation. TM-style witnessing is largely fictional and shares few of the traditional criteria of sakshi or the witness-consciousness. It was an easy selling point since so many people got vata'd out by the practice. Many TMers were/are obsessed with it and thereby cultivate this dissociative state. The actual establishment of witness- consciousness actually has some quite remarkable attributes none of which we ever here of in TM circles, even among those ranting on their own claimed enlightenment. Go figure. Well, hmmm.. What's there to rant about? Or better: who's there to rant? L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
Ms. Enlightened: On Sep 29, 2008, at 9:57 AM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: with all respect, Mr. Vaj, you appear to be stretching the facts to fit your own bias. You use words like largely and Many and none of which, and associate enlightenment among TM practitioners as ranting. No, I base it on my direct experience of many such claimants, from Robin Woodsworth Carlson in the 80's, up to the present and the large discrepancy between actual jivan-mukti / turiyatita realizers and these claimants. You're new to the list so unfortunately you missed a lot of the ravers. This post of yours seems more about confirming your bias, which appears to be that you don't care for TM (fair enough), than sharing any actual information. Just the facts, take 'em or leave 'em, I really could care less Dawn.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The actual establishment of witness- consciousness actually has some quite remarkable attributes Vaj, can you describe some of those attributes?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
On Sep 29, 2008, at 11:38 AM, ruthsimplicity wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The actual establishment of witness- consciousness actually has some quite remarkable attributes Vaj, can you describe some of those attributes? Control over waking, sleeping and dreaming--a very easy thing to determine. Decreased need for sleep--most realizers I've hung with always slept around four hours or so and looked a lot better than me in the morning :-); again, very easy to determine. Complete awareness during sleep--also, very easy to determine as the sleeper can give details of what transpired in his/her vicinity. Interestingly this last one was used in a study design at MIU for a person MMY believed was in CC, being familiar with this basic criterion. He was/is a member of this list and it turns out he wasn't in CC at all but instead had central sleep apnea and was thus just being used to foster a false claim for promotion purposes. I first read about it years ago in the Brain/Mind Bulletin as MIU was really touting the claim. As with many of the traditional claims (dramatically lowered metabolic rate, etc.) as soon as they're found independently to be false claims, they move onto some other scheme. Of course the biggie is to be able to go into introverted samadhi for the desired length of time (hours, days).
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ms. Enlightened: On Sep 29, 2008, at 9:57 AM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: with all respect, Mr. Vaj, you appear to be stretching the facts to fit your own bias. You use words like largely and Many and none of which, and associate enlightenment among TM practitioners as ranting. No, I base it on my direct experience of many such claimants, from Robin Woodsworth Carlson in the 80's, up to the present and the large discrepancy between actual jivan-mukti / turiyatita realizers and these claimants. You're new to the list so unfortunately you missed a lot of the ravers. This post of yours seems more about confirming your bias, which appears to be that you don't care for TM (fair enough), than sharing any actual information. Just the facts, take 'em or leave 'em, I really could care less Dawn. The generally accepted figure is that around 2 million people have learned TM worldwide, Mr. Vaj. Even if just one half of one percent are continuing the practice (assuming 99.5% no longer do TM), that is still 100,000 meditators globally. You would have had to have done an awful lot of talking with practitioners of the technique to be making your claim of majorities faking witnessing and ranting about enlightenment. Perhaps you are right. However to continue claiming these are facts as you represent them speaks more to the attachment of you to your story than it does any basis in fact.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
Correction: 100,000 meditators would be 5% of the 2 million that have started, not .05 %. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: Ms. Enlightened: On Sep 29, 2008, at 9:57 AM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: with all respect, Mr. Vaj, you appear to be stretching the facts to fit your own bias. You use words like largely and Many and none of which, and associate enlightenment among TM practitioners as ranting. No, I base it on my direct experience of many such claimants, from Robin Woodsworth Carlson in the 80's, up to the present and the large discrepancy between actual jivan-mukti / turiyatita realizers and these claimants. You're new to the list so unfortunately you missed a lot of the ravers. This post of yours seems more about confirming your bias, which appears to be that you don't care for TM (fair enough), than sharing any actual information. Just the facts, take 'em or leave 'em, I really could care less Dawn. The generally accepted figure is that around 2 million people have learned TM worldwide, Mr. Vaj. Even if just one half of one percent are continuing the practice (assuming 99.5% no longer do TM), that is still 100,000 meditators globally. You would have had to have done an awful lot of talking with practitioners of the technique to be making your claim of majorities faking witnessing and ranting about enlightenment. Perhaps you are right. However to continue claiming these are facts as you represent them speaks more to the attachment of you to your story than it does any basis in fact.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
enlightened_dawn11 wrote: The difference between spontaneous samadhi and spacing out is that nothing is accomplished by spacing out except escape. It is a little like being dead. Caused by actions leading to a big dosha imbalance. Spontaneous samadhi (is there really unspontaneous samadhi?)is real, grounded, effective and useful. There is no limitation on action while in samadhi, whereas it is downright dangerous to drive a car for example while spacing out. Most yogis would also say it is not a good idea to be driving a car and have spontaneous samadhi either. So you've experienced spontaneous samadhi? What useful things did you do with it?
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: with all respect, Mr. Vaj, you appear to be stretching the facts to fit your own bias. You use words like largely and Many and none of which, and associate enlightenment among TM practitioners as ranting. This post of yours seems more about confirming your bias, which appears to be that you don't care for TM (fair enough), than sharing any actual information. Vaj was never interested in propagating actual information. Vaj, and The Turq, are here to spread misinformation about TM or anything else that actually works. Largely due to an inferiority complex towards real experience versus their outdated Buddhist practises.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_reply@ wrote: with all respect, Mr. Vaj, you appear to be stretching the facts to fit your own bias. You use words like largely and Many and none of which, and associate enlightenment among TM practitioners as ranting. This post of yours seems more about confirming your bias, which appears to be that you don't care for TM (fair enough), than sharing any actual information. Vaj was never interested in propagating actual information. Vaj, and The Turq, are here to spread misinformation about TM or anything else that actually works. Largely due to an inferiority complex towards real experience versus their outdated Buddhist practises. Dude, you left out the best part. Tell her about the weekly checks we get from the CIA.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_reply@ wrote: with all respect, Mr. Vaj, you appear to be stretching the facts to fit your own bias. You use words like largely and Many and none of which, and associate enlightenment among TM practitioners as ranting. This post of yours seems more about confirming your bias, which appears to be that you don't care for TM (fair enough), than sharing any actual information. Vaj was never interested in propagating actual information. Vaj, and The Turq, are here to spread misinformation about TM or anything else that actually works. Largely due to an inferiority complex towards real experience versus their outdated Buddhist practises. Dude, you left out the best part. Tell her about the weekly checks we get from the CIA. Is that how you finance your stay in Spain ? How much do you get ?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
Dear Ms. Enlightened: On Sep 29, 2008, at 12:10 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: The generally accepted figure is that around 2 million people have learned TM worldwide, Mr. Vaj. Even if just one half of one percent are continuing the practice (assuming 99.5% no longer do TM), that is still 100,000 meditators globally. You would have had to have done an awful lot of talking with practitioners of the technique to be making your claim of majorities faking witnessing and ranting about enlightenment. Perhaps you are right. However to continue claiming these are facts as you represent them speaks more to the attachment of you to your story than it does any basis in fact. Since scientists have already determined the EEG criteria of both Patanjali yogins in samadhi and Buddhist yogins in samadhi as the same: High-Amplitude Gamma coherence; and the fact this has yet to be observed in TMers, I'd say the prospect looks pretty grim, esp. given the numbers you propose and zero so far. As soon as I see good scientific evidence of this in TM practitioners, I'll stop and celebrate with everyone else. As I pointed out in my post to Ruth, yogic-style enlightenment has some long-known and pretty darn impressive qualities. You know as well as I do that if these were observed in TM practitioners that not only would they be touting the scientific evidence, we'd be hearing about it all over the media! That's of course not to deny the benefits of TM which a well-known relaxation effect, the so-called relaxation response. Relaxation is a good thing. Do you have some evidence we're not aware of?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
On Sep 29, 2008, at 12:33 PM, TurquoiseB wrote: Vaj was never interested in propagating actual information. Vaj, and The Turq, are here to spread misinformation about TM or anything else that actually works. Largely due to an inferiority complex towards real experience versus their outdated Buddhist practises. Dude, you left out the best part. Tell her about the weekly checks we get from the CIA. Hey, let's not forget my Illuminati and New World Order buddies!
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Ms. Enlightened: On Sep 29, 2008, at 12:10 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: The generally accepted figure is that around 2 million people have learned TM worldwide, Mr. Vaj. Even if just one half of one percent are continuing the practice (assuming 99.5% no longer do TM), that is still 100,000 meditators globally. You would have had to have done an awful lot of talking with practitioners of the technique to be making your claim of majorities faking witnessing and ranting about enlightenment. Perhaps you are right. However to continue claiming these are facts as you represent them speaks more to the attachment of you to your story than it does any basis in fact. Since scientists have already determined the EEG criteria of both Patanjali yogins in samadhi and Buddhist yogins in samadhi as the same: High-Amplitude Gamma coherence; and the fact this has yet to be observed in TMers, I'd say the prospect looks pretty grim, esp. given the numbers you propose and zero so far. As soon as I see good scientific evidence of this in TM practitioners, I'll stop and celebrate with everyone else. As I pointed out in my post to Ruth, yogic-style enlightenment has some long-known and pretty darn impressive qualities. You know as well as I do that if these were observed in TM practitioners that not only would they be touting the scientific evidence, we'd be hearing about it all over the media! That's of course not to deny the benefits of TM which a well- known relaxation effect, the so-called relaxation response. Relaxation is a good thing. Do you have some evidence we're not aware of? Thank you for your information on the EEG High-Amplitude Gamma coherence. An interesting approach to measuring states of consciousness. However, there are still many TM practitioners, thousands, who for whatever reason we know nothing about with regards to their state of consciousness (nor does the TMO). To proclaim the things you are saying as facts is stretching it, and is an indication of your bias, vs. a valid representation. I am not arguing with your point of view, nor am I saying that you must prove it. However, given what you are presenting, all I continue to see is bias, not facts.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
On Sep 29, 2008, at 12:56 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: Thank you for your information on the EEG High-Amplitude Gamma coherence. An interesting approach to measuring states of consciousness. However, there are still many TM practitioners, thousands, who for whatever reason we know nothing about with regards to their state of consciousness (nor does the TMO). To proclaim the things you are saying as facts is stretching it, and is an indication of your bias, vs. a valid representation. I am not arguing with your point of view, nor am I saying that you must prove it. However, given what you are presenting, all I continue to see is bias, not facts. Well, I hate to break it to you, but the fact is is there currently is no scientific verification of samadhi or CC in TMers. It would be great if there was, but I'm afraid there simply is not. This is not bias, just the facts of science. If it's any consolation, the Maharishi claimed that Bevan Morris was enlightened. Hey, at least that's something.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, I hate to break it to you, but the fact is is there currently is no scientific verification of samadhi or CC in TMers. It would be great if there was, but I'm afraid there simply is not. This is not bias, just the facts of science. If it's any consolation, the Maharishi claimed that Bevan Morris was enlightened. Hey, at least that's something. Given Bevan's girth, that's two somethings.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
---There's no known measure for one's experience of TC (Being). The measurements are correlated with Benson's relaxation response. In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Ms. Enlightened: On Sep 29, 2008, at 12:10 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: The generally accepted figure is that around 2 million people have learned TM worldwide, Mr. Vaj. Even if just one half of one percent are continuing the practice (assuming 99.5% no longer do TM), that is still 100,000 meditators globally. You would have had to have done an awful lot of talking with practitioners of the technique to be making your claim of majorities faking witnessing and ranting about enlightenment. Perhaps you are right. However to continue claiming these are facts as you represent them speaks more to the attachment of you to your story than it does any basis in fact. Since scientists have already determined the EEG criteria of both Patanjali yogins in samadhi and Buddhist yogins in samadhi as the same: High-Amplitude Gamma coherence; and the fact this has yet to be observed in TMers, I'd say the prospect looks pretty grim, esp. given the numbers you propose and zero so far. As soon as I see good scientific evidence of this in TM practitioners, I'll stop and celebrate with everyone else. As I pointed out in my post to Ruth, yogic-style enlightenment has some long-known and pretty darn impressive qualities. You know as well as I do that if these were observed in TM practitioners that not only would they be touting the scientific evidence, we'd be hearing about it all over the media! That's of course not to deny the benefits of TM which a well-known relaxation effect, the so-called relaxation response. Relaxation is a good thing. Do you have some evidence we're not aware of?
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 29, 2008, at 12:56 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: Thank you for your information on the EEG High-Amplitude Gamma coherence. An interesting approach to measuring states of consciousness. However, there are still many TM practitioners, thousands, who for whatever reason we know nothing about with regards to their state of consciousness (nor does the TMO). To proclaim the things you are saying as facts is stretching it, and is an indication of your bias, vs. a valid representation. I am not arguing with your point of view, nor am I saying that you must prove it. However, given what you are presenting, all I continue to see is bias, not facts. Well, I hate to break it to you, but the fact is is there currently is no scientific verification of samadhi or CC in TMers. It would be great if there was, but I'm afraid there simply is not. This is not bias, just the facts of science. If it's any consolation, the Maharishi claimed that Bevan Morris was enlightened. Hey, at least that's something. Mr. Vaj, An omission of verification is not a fact, scientific or otherwise.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
I used to think I was enlightened, but after Vaj got done with me I now realize that I'm just clinically depressed. ;-) --- On Mon, 9/29/08, enlightened_dawn11 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: enlightened_dawn11 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, September 29, 2008, 1:37 PM --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 29, 2008, at 12:56 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: Thank you for your information on the EEG High-Amplitude Gamma coherence. An interesting approach to measuring states of consciousness. However, there are still many TM practitioners, thousands, who for whatever reason we know nothing about with regards to their state of consciousness (nor does the TMO). To proclaim the things you are saying as facts is stretching it, and is an indication of your bias, vs. a valid representation. I am not arguing with your point of view, nor am I saying that you must prove it. However, given what you are presenting, all I continue to see is bias, not facts. Well, I hate to break it to you, but the fact is is there currently is no scientific verification of samadhi or CC in TMers. It would be great if there was, but I'm afraid there simply is not. This is not bias, just the facts of science. If it's any consolation, the Maharishi claimed that Bevan Morris was enlightened. Hey, at least that's something. Mr. Vaj, An omission of verification is not a fact, scientific or otherwise. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
On Sep 29, 2008, at 1:40 PM, Peter wrote: I used to think I was enlightened, but after Vaj got done with me I now realize that I'm just clinically depressed. ;-) Well hey, look at the bright side: at least you didn't try to swallow the absolute like Bevan.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
Dear Ms. Enlightened: On Sep 29, 2008, at 1:37 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: Well, I hate to break it to you, but the fact is is there currently is no scientific verification of samadhi or CC in TMers. It would be great if there was, but I'm afraid there simply is not. This is not bias, just the facts of science. If it's any consolation, the Maharishi claimed that Bevan Morris was enlightened. Hey, at least that's something. Mr. Vaj, An omission of verification is not a fact, scientific or otherwise. That's just it, they haven't omitted an attempt at verification. They've been trying to show something, anything for decades now. We know very well that TMers who claim to witness all the time show an EEG signature statistically insignificant from the style of coherence seen in the waking state of consciousness. Have you had an Enlightenment Report Card done?
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Ms. Enlightened: On Sep 29, 2008, at 1:37 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: Well, I hate to break it to you, but the fact is is there currently is no scientific verification of samadhi or CC in TMers. It would be great if there was, but I'm afraid there simply is not. This is not bias, just the facts of science. If it's any consolation, the Maharishi claimed that Bevan Morris was enlightened. Hey, at least that's something. Mr. Vaj, An omission of verification is not a fact, scientific or otherwise. That's just it, they haven't omitted an attempt at verification. They've been trying to show something, anything for decades now. We know very well that TMers who claim to witness all the time show an EEG signature statistically insignificant from the style of coherence seen in the waking state of consciousness. Have you had an Enlightenment Report Card done? I apologize for kinda driving this into the ground, but I'll conclude this topic by saying that the organization who's mission it is to bring out the Maharishi's knowledge possibly doesn't know where to look for enlightened practioners of TM, if they do in fact exist. Nonetheless Mr. Vaj, I will place you in the doesn't like TM category; not bad, not good- it just is what it is.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
sounds about right. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I used to think I was enlightened, but after Vaj got done with me I now realize that I'm just clinically depressed. ;-) --- On Mon, 9/29/08, enlightened_dawn11 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: enlightened_dawn11 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, September 29, 2008, 1:37 PM --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Sep 29, 2008, at 12:56 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: Thank you for your information on the EEG High-Amplitude Gamma coherence. An interesting approach to measuring states of consciousness. However, there are still many TM practitioners, thousands, who for whatever reason we know nothing about with regards to their state of consciousness (nor does the TMO). To proclaim the things you are saying as facts is stretching it, and is an indication of your bias, vs. a valid representation. I am not arguing with your point of view, nor am I saying that you must prove it. However, given what you are presenting, all I continue to see is bias, not facts. Well, I hate to break it to you, but the fact is is there currently is no scientific verification of samadhi or CC in TMers. It would be great if there was, but I'm afraid there simply is not. This is not bias, just the facts of science. If it's any consolation, the Maharishi claimed that Bevan Morris was enlightened. Hey, at least that's something. Mr. Vaj, An omission of verification is not a fact, scientific or otherwise. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 29, 2008, at 11:38 AM, ruthsimplicity wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: The actual establishment of witness- consciousness actually has some quite remarkable attributes Vaj, can you describe some of those attributes? Control over waking, sleeping and dreaming--a very easy thing to determine. Decreased need for sleep--most realizers I've hung with always slept around four hours or so and looked a lot better than me in the morning :-); again, very easy to determine. Complete awareness during sleep--also, very easy to determine as the sleeper can give details of what transpired in his/her vicinity. Interestingly this last one was used in a study design at MIU for a person MMY believed was in CC, being familiar with this basic criterion. He was/is a member of this list and it turns out he wasn't in CC at all but instead had central sleep apnea and was thus just being used to foster a false claim for promotion purposes. Of course, Raj won't mention to you that this person was studied many years ago (Cold Blue Ice) and that more recent studies on sleep on larger groups of people are touted by the TM organization now. I first read about it years ago in the Brain/Mind Bulletin as MIU was really touting the claim. As with many of the traditional claims (dramatically lowered metabolic rate, etc.) as soon as they're found independently to be false claims, they move onto some other scheme. Actually, the metabolic reduction claim was clung to by the TMO until their own research, done by Kesterson, showed that there was no correlation between the pure consciousness state as defined by TM and lowered metabolism. At that point more sophisticated models of meditation states were developed. This, according to Imre Lakatos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Lakatos) is how normal science actually gets done: proponents of a theory will hold to the theory until a better one gets introduced, NOT, simply because counter-evidence is introduced. Of course the biggie is to be able to go into introverted samadhi for the desired length of time (hours, days). Of course, not having any consistent physiological markers for introverted samadhi to point to, your claim is merely hand-waving. The TM correlates for introverted samadhi are reasonably replicable, and people self-reporting samadhi during TM have beeen documented to maintain these markers for up to 54% of a given meditation session. http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/reprint/44/2/133.pdf In addition, there's also an explanation for what these markers mean and how they are induced. Futher, recent research shows a correlation between the degree that athletes show the waking state markers of samadhi and their relative standing in their sport, which implies that this state may be of value to non-athletes as well. So, for me, the biggie is to show that such states exist, can be replicated in a lab setting, and have plausible benefits for those that show these states. Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_reply@ wrote: with all respect, Mr. Vaj, you appear to be stretching the facts to fit your own bias. You use words like largely and Many and none of which, and associate enlightenment among TM practitioners as ranting. This post of yours seems more about confirming your bias, which appears to be that you don't care for TM (fair enough), than sharing any actual information. Vaj was never interested in propagating actual information. Vaj, and The Turq, are here to spread misinformation about TM or anything else that actually works. Largely due to an inferiority complex towards real experience versus their outdated Buddhist practises. Seeing how MMY believed that the BUddha taught TM, that's an odd thing to say. Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Ms. Enlightened: On Sep 29, 2008, at 12:10 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: The generally accepted figure is that around 2 million people have learned TM worldwide, Mr. Vaj. Even if just one half of one percent are continuing the practice (assuming 99.5% no longer do TM), that is still 100,000 meditators globally. You would have had to have done an awful lot of talking with practitioners of the technique to be making your claim of majorities faking witnessing and ranting about enlightenment. Perhaps you are right. However to continue claiming these are facts as you represent them speaks more to the attachment of you to your story than it does any basis in fact. Since scientists have already determined the EEG criteria of both Patanjali yogins in samadhi and Buddhist yogins in samadhi as the same: High-Amplitude Gamma coherence; and the fact this has yet to be observed in TMers, I'd say the prospect looks pretty grim, esp. given the numbers you propose and zero so far. As soon as I see good scientific evidence of this in TM practitioners, I'll stop and celebrate with everyone else. As I pointed out in my post to Ruth, yogic-style enlightenment has some long-known and pretty darn impressive qualities. You know as well as I do that if these were observed in TM practitioners that not only would they be touting the scientific evidence, we'd be hearing about it all over the media! That's of course not to deny the benefits of TM which a well-known relaxation effect, the so-called relaxation response. Relaxation is a good thing. Do you have some evidence we're not aware of? What scientists claim that high gamma is the EEG of samadhi? BTW, during TM yogic flying practice, high coherence in all bands is found, just before liftoff, so you're a tad out of date on your assertion. By about 30 years. Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 29, 2008, at 12:56 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: Thank you for your information on the EEG High-Amplitude Gamma coherence. An interesting approach to measuring states of consciousness. However, there are still many TM practitioners, thousands, who for whatever reason we know nothing about with regards to their state of consciousness (nor does the TMO). To proclaim the things you are saying as facts is stretching it, and is an indication of your bias, vs. a valid representation. I am not arguing with your point of view, nor am I saying that you must prove it. However, given what you are presenting, all I continue to see is bias, not facts. Well, I hate to break it to you, but the fact is is there currently is no scientific verification of samadhi or CC in TMers. It would be great if there was, but I'm afraid there simply is not. This is not bias, just the facts of science. So point to studies published in peer reveiw journas, that show consistent correlates of samadhi as you define it. If it's any consolation, the Maharishi claimed that Bevan Morris was enlightened. Hey, at least that's something. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yifuxero [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ---There's no known measure for one's experience of TC (Being). The measurements are correlated with Benson's relaxation response. Actually, no. google. pure consciousness breath suspension for a short list of such studies. E.G.: http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/reprint/44/2/133.pdf
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Ms. Enlightened: On Sep 29, 2008, at 1:37 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: Well, I hate to break it to you, but the fact is is there currently is no scientific verification of samadhi or CC in TMers. It would be great if there was, but I'm afraid there simply is not. This is not bias, just the facts of science. If it's any consolation, the Maharishi claimed that Bevan Morris was enlightened. Hey, at least that's something. Mr. Vaj, An omission of verification is not a fact, scientific or otherwise. That's just it, they haven't omitted an attempt at verification. They've been trying to show something, anything for decades now. We know very well that TMers who claim to witness all the time show an EEG signature statistically insignificant from the style of coherence seen in the waking state of consciousness. Vaj, which study can you point to that says that research publishe din the last 10-20 years on EEG coherence in TM (pure consciousness specifically) is statistically insignificant from the style of coherence seen in the waking state? L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- Yes indeed! Pure Consciousness, Being, whatever you want to calll It, is associated with only the grossest of correlates that midieval machines can come up with. No large scale studies on the subject (i.e. Samadhi vs mere relaxation response). If there were such studies, the individual in question should somehow be able to keep a log (say clicking a monitor with the finger) at the precise moment of TC); with the log's record matching statements of the clinician as to his assesment: in other words, the clinician should be able to come up with a statement saying subject transcended at 3:05:20 and remained in that state for 3 min, without the subject giving any clues. n FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yifuxero yifuxero@ wrote: ---There's no known measure for one's experience of TC (Being). The measurements are correlated with Benson's relaxation response. Actually, no. google. pure consciousness breath suspension for a short list of such studies. E.G.: http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/reprint/44/2/133.pdf
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yifuxero [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Yes indeed! Pure Consciousness, Being, whatever you want to calll It, is associated with only the grossest of correlates that midieval machines can come up with. No large scale studies on the subject (i.e. Samadhi vs mere relaxation response). If there were such studies, the individual in question should somehow be able to keep a log (say clicking a monitor with the finger) at the precise moment of TC); with the log's record matching statements of the clinician as to his assesment: in other words, the clinician should be able to come up with a statement saying subject transcended at 3:05:20 and remained in that state for 3 min, without the subject giving any clues. Er, http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/reprint/44/2/133.pdf n FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yifuxero yifuxero@ wrote: ---There's no known measure for one's experience of TC (Being). The measurements are correlated with Benson's relaxation response. Actually, no. google. pure consciousness breath suspension for a short list of such studies. E.G.: http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/reprint/44/2/133.pdf
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
There is no psysiological correlate to Pure Consciousness and Being. It is unmanifest. Whether we have awareness of PC (ha-ha) or Being is not measurable, except by awareness; mindfulness and transcendence both. It cannot be conveyed other than Being; a synonomous reality; grace. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yifuxero [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Yes indeed! Pure Consciousness, Being, whatever you want to calll It, is associated with only the grossest of correlates that midieval machines can come up with. No large scale studies on the subject (i.e. Samadhi vs mere relaxation response). If there were such studies, the individual in question should somehow be able to keep a log (say clicking a monitor with the finger) at the precise moment of TC); with the log's record matching statements of the clinician as to his assesment: in other words, the clinician should be able to come up with a statement saying subject transcended at 3:05:20 and remained in that state for 3 min, without the subject giving any clues. n FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yifuxero yifuxero@ wrote: ---There's no known measure for one's experience of TC (Being). The measurements are correlated with Benson's relaxation response. Actually, no. google. pure consciousness breath suspension for a short list of such studies. E.G.: http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/reprint/44/2/133.pdf
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is no psysiological correlate to Pure Consciousness and Being. It is unmanifest. Whether we have awareness of PC (ha-ha) or Being is not measurable, except by awareness; mindfulness and transcendence both. It cannot be conveyed other than Being; a synonomous reality; grace. http://www.psychosomaticmedicine.org/cgi/reprint/44/2/133.pdf Whether or not this is real pure consciousness or not, who can say? Lawson
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
On Sep 29, 2008, at 8:14 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: There is no psysiological correlate to Pure Consciousness and Being. It is unmanifest. Whether we have awareness of PC (ha-ha) or Being is not measurable, except by awareness; mindfulness and transcendence both. It cannot be conveyed other than Being; a synonomous reality; grace. Your TM brainwashing is showing. Of course you were programmed to believe that: they knew they'd ever produce real results. Why do you think they had to keep coming up with the latest sales idea, Ayurveda, magic houses, etc.? Did I tell you about my Sthapatya-ved swampland in Florida? Yogic tradition says quite differently and has a continuous record of access to these states. You just need a good teacher with real experience, not an old clerk decked out in silk!
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 29, 2008, at 8:14 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: There is no psysiological correlate to Pure Consciousness and Being. It is unmanifest. Whether we have awareness of PC (ha-ha) or Being is not measurable, except by awareness; mindfulness and transcendence both. It cannot be conveyed other than Being; a synonomous reality; grace. Your TM brainwashing is showing. Of course you were programmed to believe that: they knew they'd ever produce real results. Why do you think they had to keep coming up with the latest sales idea, Ayurveda, magic houses, etc.? Huh, interesting take on this Vaj, since you and I have been arguing for quite awhile now that the TM belief about what constitutes such correlations is WRONG, not non-existent. Seems like you just gotta attack people who are favorable to TM on their beliefs even if you know they're not the mainstream TM org's position. Did I tell you about my Sthapatya-ved swampland in Florida? Yogic tradition says quite differently and has a continuous record of access to these states. You just need a good teacher with real experience, not an old clerk decked out in silk! Well, TM tradition says something quite differently too. In fact, I can make a good case that MMY was the first major spiritual leader to insist that the physiology of meditation be tied directly to Western theories about states of consciousness. Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 29, 2008, at 8:14 PM, enlightened_dawn11 wrote: There is no psysiological correlate to Pure Consciousness and Being. It is unmanifest. Whether we have awareness of PC (ha-ha) or Being is not measurable, except by awareness; mindfulness and transcendence both. It cannot be conveyed other than Being; a synonomous reality; grace. Your TM brainwashing is showing. Of course you were programmed to believe that: they knew they'd ever produce real results. Why do you think they had to keep coming up with the latest sales idea, Ayurveda, magic houses, etc.? Did I tell you about my Sthapatya-ved swampland in Florida? Yogic tradition says quite differently and has a continuous record of access to these states. You just need a good teacher with real experience, not an old clerk decked out in silk! My -what- is showing? Oh my--I'll have to learn to sit more carefully. how many measurements would you like to take? Since Pure Consciousness is unmanifest(we are talking about -pure consciousness- aren't we?), all that we can measure with instruments is one or another particular correlates of pure consciousness, and since the state of pure consciousness as experienced by the awareness is continuous and without boundaries, beyond time and space, which correlate do you want to measure? It is a waste of time if you ask me.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
Only when Michael gives me some of his (Super Shiva Dank Wonder) Ayur-Ved weed.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- On Sun, 9/28/08, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] TMers: Do You Space Out? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 6:41 PM On Sep 28, 2008, at 6:31 PM, Jonathan Chadwick wrote: Could you repeat the question? I'm sorry, were you talking to me? What? Ah, I think they were talkin about chicken sandwiches .ya know, being grounding. I like mustard on mine...and a little mayo.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lack of fucking will make you spacey. Good fucking makes you very centered and present. Also an occasional chicken sandwich before or after fucking will make you grounded too. What about bad fucking? (opps I spaced out -- there is no such thing.) On a slightly more serious note, SSRS said a couple of things about sex that I found interesting. One he asked, You know people who have lots of sex? They are generally not so creative. Well sex may be grounding but does not make one sparking with ideas and insights -- in my experience. YMMV. And I have found, at times, sex can make me spacey. (Maybe its being with airheads, i don't know.) Maybe its a AV type thing. I am pitta - kapha. I am guessing you (Peter) are pitta vata. Maybe sex grounds vata and spaces out kapha types. And (a lot of ) sex can make me tired. Grounded but dull? Another thing SSRS said was Bramacharya is not a practice, its a happening. (Probably not referring to the Be-ins of the 60's). There is a certain mode, I have found, where sex does become irrelevant. Its an in the zone thing. Bright, happy, creative and energetic. But sex is elsewhere, Its not an aversion or denial or lack of desire. its just not there. Its over there, if at all, and not relevant. My experience is that is not a spacey state at all -- but quite grounded, sparky, creative, together, flowing, rapid results kind of state. I assume SSRS, SBS an others are in some zone like that and much more. And didn't need sex or chicken sandwiches for grounding. They say Einstein was a hound dog though. (Want to come up to my flat and see my equations?) On the other hand, I have found (prolly too small a sample to be significant) that a band or artists first CD is the most creative. Of first 1-3. After that, they may mature stylistically and in their craft, but that awesome originality and creative spark is missing. All that sex now available to them after they make their big break -- could be a factor. --- On Sun, 9/28/08, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] TMers: Do You Space Out? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 7:51 PM It may well be that many great Indian saints who were said to go into spontaneous samadhi were just spacing out. We know how Indians are and they'll make such overblown observations. Brigante said a while back that on his TTC that Maharishi said Indians were like Americans on drugs. I think, unless they have been exposed and have had to adapt to western culture (such as Indians who attend universities her to get advanced degrees) they often have the emotional maturity of an 11 year old. But that also suggests a vata disposition. Meditation of any kind, as ayurveda states, usually increases the ether element. It is to help you rise about the muddy earth element. But what if you are already a space case. I would lay the spaciness more to bad vegetarian diet or having such a diet if it is inappropriate for your constitution. Remember that many Indian yogis use ashwaganda and brahmi in conjunction with their practice which helps tone the nervous system and ground out. Yogis know the importance of grounding out whereas too many western meditators just want to fly away like a leaf. How many TM'ers you know need lots of rest indeed up to 10 to 12 hours of sleep? Whereas I see progress if I only need 4 to 6 hours of sleep. I also wonder if westerners because of their dispositions accomplish just as much in a fraction of the time meditating that an Indian does? BTW, of that list I'm sure you'll find a lot of aging boomers who have never meditated relating to those symptoms. Maybe it's the fluoride in the water? They're known as senior moments and sometimes by balancing the doshas they start to go away. Vaj wrote: Great article from John Knapp. Transcendental Meditators: Do You Space Out? Posted by John M. Knapp, LMSW at 9/25/2008 03:46:00 PM Transcendental Meditation Dissociation In my cult counseling practice, I'm often asked about dissociation. Many people don't know what it is. Or if they experience it. In TM, we called it spacing out, blissing out, being a space cadet, or many other dismissive names. But what did we mean? And what's the big problem with it? A lot of people enjoy blissing out. Basically, dissociation is any gap in the major identity or cognitive functions: awareness, memory, conscious thought, certain language abilities, and of course identity itself. We all dissociate sometimes. We daydream, get lost in thought, stare off into space, forget for a moment where we are, or lose track of our surroundings when deeply involved with a
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
Tom wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sorry, were you talking to me? What? Ah, I think they were talkin about chicken sandwiches .ya know, being grounding. I like mustard on mine...and a little mayo. Would you like some fries and a coke with that? Would you like to super size your order? That will be $10.50 please.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
We need to ask Sondheim about this. Leonard once said that during the time while he was pretending to be a hetero married guy all that sex energy was sublimated into his music. The result was the score to West Side Story. It was, he said, the most creative period of my life. --- On Sun, 9/28/08, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 8:56 PM --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, Peter drpetersutphen@ ... wrote: Lack of fucking will make you spacey. Good fucking makes you very centered and present. Also an occasional chicken sandwich before or after fucking will make you grounded too. What about bad fucking? (opps I spaced out -- there is no such thing.) On a slightly more serious note, SSRS said a couple of things about sex that I found interesting. One he asked, You know people who have lots of sex? They are generally not so creative. Well sex may be grounding but does not make one sparking with ideas and insights -- in my experience. YMMV. And I have found, at times, sex can make me spacey. (Maybe its being with airheads, i don't know.) Maybe its a AV type thing. I am pitta - kapha. I am guessing you (Peter) are pitta vata. Maybe sex grounds vata and spaces out kapha types. And (a lot of ) sex can make me tired. Grounded but dull? Another thing SSRS said was Bramacharya is not a practice, its a happening. (Probably not referring to the Be-ins of the 60's). There is a certain mode, I have found, where sex does become irrelevant. Its an in the zone thing. Bright, happy, creative and energetic. But sex is elsewhere, Its not an aversion or denial or lack of desire. its just not there. Its over there, if at all, and not relevant. My experience is that is not a spacey state at all -- but quite grounded, sparky, creative, together, flowing, rapid results kind of state. I assume SSRS, SBS an others are in some zone like that and much more. And didn't need sex or chicken sandwiches for grounding. They say Einstein was a hound dog though. (Want to come up to my flat and see my equations?) On the other hand, I have found (prolly too small a sample to be significant) that a band or artists first CD is the most creative. Of first 1-3. After that, they may mature stylistically and in their craft, but that awesome originality and creative spark is missing. All that sex now available to them after they make their big break -- could be a factor. --- On Sun, 9/28/08, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] . wrote: From: Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] TMers: Do You Space Out? To: FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com Date: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 7:51 PM It may well be that many great Indian saints who were said to go into spontaneous samadhi were just spacing out. We know how Indians are and they'll make such overblown observations. Brigante said a while back that on his TTC that Maharishi said Indians were like Americans on drugs. I think, unless they have been exposed and have had to adapt to western culture (such as Indians who attend universities her to get advanced degrees) they often have the emotional maturity of an 11 year old. But that also suggests a vata disposition. Meditation of any kind, as ayurveda states, usually increases the ether element. It is to help you rise about the muddy earth element. But what if you are already a space case. I would lay the spaciness more to bad vegetarian diet or having such a diet if it is inappropriate for your constitution. Remember that many Indian yogis use ashwaganda and brahmi in conjunction with their practice which helps tone the nervous system and ground out. Yogis know the importance of grounding out whereas too many western meditators just want to fly away like a leaf. How many TM'ers you know need lots of rest indeed up to 10 to 12 hours of sleep? Whereas I see progress if I only need 4 to 6 hours of sleep. I also wonder if westerners because of their dispositions accomplish just as much in a fraction of the time meditating that an Indian does? BTW, of that list I'm sure you'll find a lot of aging boomers who have never meditated relating to those symptoms. Maybe it's the fluoride in the water? They're known as senior moments and sometimes by balancing the doshas they start to go away. Vaj wrote: Great article from John Knapp. Transcendental Meditators: Do You Space Out? Posted by John M. Knapp, LMSW at 9/25/2008 03:46:00 PM Transcendental Meditation Dissociation In my cult counseling practice, I'm often asked about dissociation. Many people don't know what it is. Or if they experience it. In TM, we called it spacing out, blissing out, being a space cadet, or many other dismissive
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: I'm sorry, were you talking to me? What? Ah, I think they were talkin about chicken sandwiches .ya know, being grounding. I like mustard on mine...and a little mayo. Would you like some fries and a coke with that? Would you like to super size your order? That will be $10.50 please. Thanks but no thanks. Never touch fries or coke. About twice a year I have a Dr. Pepper. It tasted better before they started using corn syrup.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
The chicken at Pizza Ranch is excellent (also the salads are quite good). Bone the leftovers and marinate them in a spicy sweet sauce then dump them cold on a big bowl of bagged Hyvee lettuce salad with cheap french dressing on the side. Mmmm... --- On Sun, 9/28/08, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 9:02 PM Tom wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, Peter drpetersutphen@ ... wrote: I'm sorry, were you talking to me? What? Ah, I think they were talkin about chicken sandwiches .ya know, being grounding. I like mustard on mine...and a little mayo. Would you like some fries and a coke with that? Would you like to super size your order? That will be $10.50 please.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
The difference between spontaneous samadhi and spacing out is that nothing is accomplished by spacing out except escape. It is a little like being dead. Caused by actions leading to a big dosha imbalance. Spontaneous samadhi (is there really unspontaneous samadhi?)is real, grounded, effective and useful. There is no limitation on action while in samadhi, whereas it is downright dangerous to drive a car for example while spacing out. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It may well be that many great Indian saints who were said to go into spontaneous samadhi were just spacing out. We know how Indians are and they'll make such overblown observations. Brigante said a while back that on his TTC that Maharishi said Indians were like Americans on drugs. I think, unless they have been exposed and have had to adapt to western culture (such as Indians who attend universities her to get advanced degrees) they often have the emotional maturity of an 11 year old. But that also suggests a vata disposition. Meditation of any kind, as ayurveda states, usually increases the ether element. It is to help you rise about the muddy earth element. But what if you are already a space case. I would lay the spaciness more to bad vegetarian diet or having such a diet if it is inappropriate for your constitution. Remember that many Indian yogis use ashwaganda and brahmi in conjunction with their practice which helps tone the nervous system and ground out. Yogis know the importance of grounding out whereas too many western meditators just want to fly away like a leaf. How many TM'ers you know need lots of rest indeed up to 10 to 12 hours of sleep? Whereas I see progress if I only need 4 to 6 hours of sleep. I also wonder if westerners because of their dispositions accomplish just as much in a fraction of the time meditating that an Indian does? BTW, of that list I'm sure you'll find a lot of aging boomers who have never meditated relating to those symptoms. Maybe it's the fluoride in the water? They're known as senior moments and sometimes by balancing the doshas they start to go away.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--(snip) Many long-term meditating clients initially deny dissociating in daily life. But after reviewing the symptoms, some tell me they've dissociated for years. Are you dissociating? Is it a challenge in your life? (snip) What you are describing here, is the onset of 'Witnessing'... 'Spacing out' means you aren't having any thoughts, but are still aware. Since in the beginning, this act of being aware, without thinking, needs to be stablized, and over time, it becomes stabilized. You begin to question, 'Who is experiencing when I am 'spaced out' or when I'm not thinking any thoughts. I don't have any thoughts of the past or future, so where am I in time. This space I'm in seems unusually unfamiliar, and I can't seem to catagorize it in the same way I used to, so where am I. Cosmic Consciousness can at first be disconcerting. Krishna Murti expressed this a lot in his writings. He was experiencing CC. So, this whole idea of being 'spaced out' is something of the 'old consciousness. And as has been said, it does take time to become familiar and stabilize. Eckhart Tolle, expresses this clearly in his writings, and he describes that he spent years, 'spaced out, without any thoughts, and until he became more and more stabilized and familiar with this new and evolved state. He claimed his primary change in consciousness was that he no longer had any thoughts. Maharishi also used to talk about when he was spending time in Uttar Kashi, when he retreated and was living there, that he could have as little as one thought an hour. This is something our culture is completely unfamiliar with and something which is not acknowledged, as it is not well understood, by comtempary psychiatry. Our culture recognizes only constant striving, thinking of the past, worrying about the future, anything to take one out of the Being of the Present. Eckhart Tolle I feel has the clearest take on this matter. But, at times, it is easy to fall into depression, if there is an imbalance in the nervous system, by not listening to what it needs in terms of food, exercise and other 'grounding' activities. So, being 'spaced out' is not a clear way of analysing what is happening, but more of an old way of saying, what your elementary teacher used to say, get back to work and stop day-dreaming and looking out the window. Our whole culture is 'spaced out' right now, and we are entering a period where time will become regarded in more of a relative way, in agreement with Einsteins Special Theory of Relativity. Einstein was describing reality at a greater level of understanding. He would probably be described, when absorbed in his intuitive understandings as being really, really spaced-out! R.G.
[FairfieldLife] Re: TMers: Do You Space Out?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lack of fucking will make you spacey. Good fucking makes you very centered and present. Also an occasional chicken sandwich before or after fucking will make you grounded too. (snip) I heard one time, that the word- F-U-C-K, was actually a legal abreviation during the 1920's and 1930's that meant: 'For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge' So, let's all get together and make love, not war, yes?
