[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War? (To Witness or Not to Witness?)
> > **SNIP** > > > > > > Everyone is a force of nature, by definition, . . .. > > > > **END** > > > > Yes, and Brahman alone is, behind all. So, although I wasn't actually > > suggesting that there are enlightened criminals, that does seem > > possible to me. > > > > But I do think that an unsettled psyche might nonetheless find access > > to both transcending and witnessing, and, unprepared and unable to > > incorporate That gracefully into their life, might flip out and > > accomplish action that is criminal. Don't see how witnessing, by > > definition, would have anything to do with that. > > > > If witnessing is just "disinterested watching" then it might be dissociation. OTOH, if > witnessing is what MMY thinks it is, and what the TM research suggests, then, from a > physiological perspective, it might be radically different than simple disinterested > watchfulness. This term 'Witnessing', is just a word; And like any word, attempting to describe the state of enlightenment; Seems to fall short, of completely describing the situation, or the experience. It's different to talk about witnessing, than it is to be experiencing witnessing, Just as it's different to talk about Jesus, as compared to performing miracles, which Jesus taught or demonstrated was possible of humanity, and also the concept of a soul, which continues after death. Both are Jewish concepts, mentioned repeatedly in the Old Testament. Jesus just expanded Jewish thought to include the concept of complete forgiveness and 'unconditional love'. Anyway, Witness has more to do with 'Transcending the Ego'. In other words, instead of identifying anymore with the egos- center of experience; The 'center' of experience, becomes you own expanded consciousness; Which is non-localized; And therefore, able to use the intellect, to make decisions, Based in the expanded perspective, instead of the limited perspective of the ego, emotions, or intellectual theories. So, there's no 'Flipping Out'; Unless you consider stuff like what Jesus, did in the Temple; In his attempt to clear the Temple of muck; The charge being: The Empire of Rome Vs. Jesus of Nazareth, Sedition. > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > **SNIP** > > > > Everyone is a force of nature, by definition, . . .. > > **END** > > Yes, and Brahman alone is, behind all. So, although I wasn't actually > suggesting that there are enlightened criminals, that does seem > possible to me. > > But I do think that an unsettled psyche might nonetheless find access > to both transcending and witnessing, and, unprepared and unable to > incorporate That gracefully into their life, might flip out and > accomplish action that is criminal. Don't see how witnessing, by > definition, would have anything to do with that. > If witnessing is just "disinterested watching" then it might be dissociation. OTOH, if witnessing is what MMY thinks it is, and what the TM research suggests, then, from a physiological perspective, it might be radically different than simple disinterested watchfulness. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > What the hell do you mean, "Enlighten the mind".?? "By applying it through action we enlighten the heart".?? > > Could you quote exactly where Maharishi said this in his BG.?? > > You don't enlighten your mind or heart. You enlighten yourself. You trancend your mind. > > The Enlightened person acts in perfect accord with the Total- natural-Law. Not Nature. > > There are 4 major paths. Karma-yoga, Bhakti-Yoga, Gyana- yoga and Hatha-yoga all explained in BG. > > For an intellectual entity, eating meat or smoking tobacco is against Total-natural-Law. > > You are crazy Jim bitch. What the hell is your dharma anyway.? > no more caffeine for you my friend!... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > What the hell do you mean, "Enlighten the mind".?? "By applying it through action we enlighten the heart".?? > > Could you quote exactly where Maharishi said this in his BG.?? > > You don't enlighten your mind or heart. You enlighten yourself. You trancend your mind. > > The Enlightened person acts in perfect accord with the Total- natural-Law. Not Nature. > > There are 4 major paths. Karma-yoga, Bhakti-Yoga, Gyana-yoga and Hatha-yoga all explained in BG. > > For an intellectual entity, eating meat or smoking tobacco is against Total-natural-Law. > > You are crazy Jim bitch. What the hell is your dharma anyway.? Enlighten the mind means: 'bring light to the mind', bring the mind to silence in transcendental consciousness. Enlighten the heart means to 'bring light(attention) to the heart. When the mind has quieted and the heart is felt, then you can make your own decisions, based on a clear mind(quite mind), and clear heart (attunement to your soul); Therefore at some point, the Guru is You. The Guru points the way, and if you follow; You find it for yourself, inside of you; "The Kingdom of Heaven is Within", Jesus said. In your own soul; in the illunination of the silent mind and soulful heart. Therein lies your enlightenment, from inside yourself; No longer on an outside force, whether it be Guru, TV, sex, or money or whatever, other, false god of the ego. Enlightenment is an "Inside Job". R.G. > > > jim_flanegin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 17:54:08 - > Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War? > > > The thing to keep in mind in all of this is that it is *we* who are > wanting to gain Self Realization, not the person who we are > following. Therefore it is important at a certain stage of seeking, > when we know all of the key information cold, to begin to apply it > to ourselves, evaluating and discriminating. The BG says this is the > way to enlighten the mind. And by applying it through action, we > enlighten the heart. > > The enlightened person acts in perfect accord with Nature. But, > those who are unenlightened, who have not yet fully gained Self > Realization will not see this. It is only fully comprehensible from > the perspective of another who has gained permanent Self Realization. > > So, if it is we who are attempting to gain perfect accord with > Nature through Self Realization, then we should learn to follow our > own path to get there, not someone elses. > > I remember many, many times when I just felt compelled to do things > that were 'verbotten' under TMO 'law', such as eat meat, or smoke a > cigarette. > > Just had to. Couldn't get past it by going over it or under it. Had > to face it, and do it. And by carefully integrating my dharma with > what I had been taught, the goal was reached. > > NOT that I am advocating smoking or a non-vegetarian diet...that was > something personal just for me. > > > > > - > How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > **SNIP** > > Everyone is a force of nature, by definition, . . .. **END** Yes, and Brahman alone is, behind all. So, although I wasn't actually suggesting that there are enlightened criminals, that does seem possible to me. But I do think that an unsettled psyche might nonetheless find access to both transcending and witnessing, and, unprepared and unable to incorporate That gracefully into their life, might flip out and accomplish action that is criminal. Don't see how witnessing, by definition, would have anything to do with that. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
What the hell do you mean, "Enlighten the mind".?? "By applying it through action we enlighten the heart".?? Could you quote exactly where Maharishi said this in his BG.?? You don't enlighten your mind or heart. You enlighten yourself. You trancend your mind. The Enlightened person acts in perfect accord with the Total-natural-Law. Not Nature. There are 4 major paths. Karma-yoga, Bhakti-Yoga, Gyana-yoga and Hatha-yoga all explained in BG. For an intellectual entity, eating meat or smoking tobacco is against Total-natural-Law. You are crazy Jim bitch. What the hell is your dharma anyway.? jim_flanegin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 17:54:08 -0000Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War? The thing to keep in mind in all of this is that it is *we* who are wanting to gain Self Realization, not the person who we are following. Therefore it is important at a certain stage of seeking, when we know all of the key information cold, to begin to apply it to ourselves, evaluating and discriminating. The BG says this is the way to enlighten the mind. And by applying it through action, we enlighten the heart.The enlightened person acts in perfect accord with Nature. But, those who are unenlightened, who have not yet fully gained Self Realization will not see this. It is only fully comprehensible from the perspective of another who has gained permanent Self Realization.So, if it is we who are attempting to gain perfect accord with Nature through Self Realization, then we should learn to follow our own path to get there, not someone elses.I remember many, many times when I just felt compelled to do things that were 'verbotten' under TMO 'law', such as eat meat, or smoke a cigarette. Just had to. Couldn't get past it by going over it or under it. Had to face it, and do it. And by carefully integrating my dharma with what I had been taught, the goal was reached. NOT that I am advocating smoking or a non-vegetarian diet...that was something personal just for me. How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates. __._,_.___ To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Comment below: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > > > > > > > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > > > > > > > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > > > > > > > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > > > > > > > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark David Chapman described his experience of shooting > John > > > Lennon > > > > > > as one where he was watching what he was doing as a > separate > > > entity > > > > > > from himself. > > > > > > > > > > Pathological dissociation and "witnessing" a la TM > > > > > may sound similar in verbal descriptions but are very > > > > > different things. > > > > > > > > > **END** > > > > > > > > I don't feel that's necessarily so. It's not implausible that > > > certain > > > > individuals have clear experiences of transcendence and > witnessing, > > > > but without the philosophical grounding or preparation for what > > > those > > > > experiences are, and consequently their psychology can't handle > it. > > > > > > My first experience of witnessing was so unlike > > > what I'd imagined from the descriptions of it that > > > it took me quite a while to realize what was going > > > on. But it was a positive experience right from > > > the start, before I knew what it was. > > > > > > I wouldn't suggest that witnessing might not be scary > > > and unsettling for some people, but I'm *very* > > > dubious that even for them it resembles pathological > > > dissociation experientially, based on my own > > > experiences of both states. > > > > > > > > > > I think people are confusing unstressing with witnessing OUTSIDE of > TM. While itwould > > certainly be possible that some major negative tendency could > bubble up after > > transcending during TM, we're talking about witnessing during > activity here. That's a > > whole different kettle of fish, I think. > > But witnessing is, in effect, transcending during > activity. So I should think that *could* trigger > unstressing during the witnessing experience itself. Perhaps, but the activity of the brain and body would tend to dampen down any unstressing episode. If you're active in the world, there's not much chance for reduced activity leading to enhanced repair. I think witnessing in activity is a RESULT of such repair/normalizatoin, not the cause of it. > > In any event, it's a *novel* experience, and that > could conceivably unsettle some people. > Sure, but would they be unsettled to the point of committing violent acts DURING the episode? That is contradictory on its face. I tend to doubt that OBL had witnessing ala TM witnessing while he was killing someone. OBL comes off as a very fanatical, intolerant, violent and hateful person. Doesn't seem a likely candidate for being prone to witnessing ala TM. > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" > > wrote: > > > > > > Comment below: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > > > > > > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > > > > > > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > > > > > > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > > > > > > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. > > > > > > > > > > Mark David Chapman described his experience of shooting John > > Lennon > > > > > as one where he was watching what he was doing as a separate > > entity > > > > > from himself. > > > > > > > > Pathological dissociation and "witnessing" a la TM > > > > may sound similar in verbal descriptions but are very > > > > different things. > > > > > > > **END** > > > > > > I don't feel that's necessarily so. It's not implausible that > > certain > > > individuals have clear experiences of transcendence and witnessing, > > > but without the philosophical grounding or preparation for what > > those > > > experiences are, and consequently their psychology can't handle it. > > > > My first experience of witnessing was so unlike > > what I'd imagined from the descriptions of it that > > it took me quite a while to realize what was going > > on. But it was a positive experience right from > > the start, before I knew what it was. > > > > I wouldn't suggest that witnessing might not be scary > > and unsettling for some people, but I'm *very* > > dubious that even for them it resembles pathological > > dissociation experientially, based on my own > > experiences of both states. > > > > > > I think people are confusing unstressing with witnessing OUTSIDE of TM. While itwould > certainly be possible that some major negative tendency could bubble up after > transcending during TM, we're talking about witnessing during activity here. That's a > whole different kettle of fish, I think. But witnessing is, in effect, transcending during activity. So I should think that *could* trigger unstressing during the witnessing experience itself. In any event, it's a *novel* experience, and that could conceivably unsettle some people. > > > If, for some reason, they have some pathology or violent tendencies > > > then they may act on them. Certain drugs or drug combinations, or > > > even acting out behaviors well outside the norms and taboos of > > society > > > may serve as the stimulus. > > > > > > Hannibal Lecter as a force of nature. > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" > wrote: > > > > Comment below: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > > > > > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > > > > > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > > > > > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > > > > > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. > > > > > > > > Mark David Chapman described his experience of shooting John > Lennon > > > > as one where he was watching what he was doing as a separate > entity > > > > from himself. > > > > > > Pathological dissociation and "witnessing" a la TM > > > may sound similar in verbal descriptions but are very > > > different things. > > > > > **END** > > > > I don't feel that's necessarily so. It's not implausible that > certain > > individuals have clear experiences of transcendence and witnessing, > > but without the philosophical grounding or preparation for what > those > > experiences are, and consequently their psychology can't handle it. > > My first experience of witnessing was so unlike > what I'd imagined from the descriptions of it that > it took me quite a while to realize what was going > on. But it was a positive experience right from > the start, before I knew what it was. > > I wouldn't suggest that witnessing might not be scary > and unsettling for some people, but I'm *very* > dubious that even for them it resembles pathological > dissociation experientially, based on my own > experiences of both states. > > I think people are confusing unstressing with witnessing OUTSIDE of TM. While itwould certainly be possible that some major negative tendency could bubble up after transcending during TM, we're talking about witnessing during activity here. That's a whole different kettle of fish, I think. > > > > > > If, for some reason, they have some pathology or violent tendencies > > then they may act on them. Certain drugs or drug combinations, or > > even acting out behaviors well outside the norms and taboos of > society > > may serve as the stimulus. > > > > Hannibal Lecter as a force of nature. > > > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Comment below: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > > > wrote: > > > > > > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > > > > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > > > > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > > > > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > > > > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. > > > > > > Mark David Chapman described his experience of shooting John Lennon > > > as one where he was watching what he was doing as a separate entity > > > from himself. > > > > Pathological dissociation and "witnessing" a la TM > > may sound similar in verbal descriptions but are very > > different things. > > > **END** > > I don't feel that's necessarily so. It's not implausible that certain > individuals have clear experiences of transcendence and witnessing, > but without the philosophical grounding or preparation for what those > experiences are, and consequently their psychology can't handle it. Extreme intellectual discomfort, as MMY characterizes this situation, usually doesn't lead to violence. In fact, since witnessing is associated with a CALM state of mind and behavior, to suggest that it would spontaneously lead to violence is without grounds. There's no evidence that enlightened people are spontaneously violent. There's plenty of evidence that they become LESS prone to irrational anger and other irrational behavior. > If, for some reason, they have some pathology or violent tendencies > then they may act on them. Save that wintessing, by its very nature, appears to normalize such tendencies. I question the assumption that someone with such a pathology can even become enlightened and if they DO have some temporary episode of witnessing, such an episode, on its face, seems entirely opposed to the violent/pathological tendencies of such a person. Witnessing, ala TM, is a state where the various parts of the brain are functioning in harmony and health. Pathology, by definition, is the exact opposite. The EEG studies show this over and over. TM shows EEG coherence and balance between parts of the brain. While some pathological states like epilepsy also show EEG coherence, the activity is radically different. There are no "spikes" in meditator's EEG during Transcendence, for example: there's just slow, restful alertness. Thalamic activity during epilepsy can become hyper. During TM, it tends to become less -- a kind of sensory deprivation of the SUBTLE senses rather than merely cutting off outside input. Certain drugs or drug combinations, or > even acting out behaviors well outside the norms and taboos of society > may serve as the stimulus. > > Hannibal Lecter as a force of nature. > Everyone is a force of nature, by definition, but Lecter couldn't become enlightened and remain pathological, at least in the way that he apparently was. Whereever there is obvious physiological correlation with such dysfunctional behavior, it's always in the direction of fragmentation and imbalanced activity. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Comment below: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > > > wrote: > > > > > > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > > > > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > > > > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > > > > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > > > > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. > > > > > > Mark David Chapman described his experience of shooting John Lennon > > > as one where he was watching what he was doing as a separate entity > > > from himself. > > > > Pathological dissociation and "witnessing" a la TM > > may sound similar in verbal descriptions but are very > > different things. > > > **END** > > I don't feel that's necessarily so. It's not implausible that certain > individuals have clear experiences of transcendence and witnessing, > but without the philosophical grounding or preparation for what those > experiences are, and consequently their psychology can't handle it. My first experience of witnessing was so unlike what I'd imagined from the descriptions of it that it took me quite a while to realize what was going on. But it was a positive experience right from the start, before I knew what it was. I wouldn't suggest that witnessing might not be scary and unsettling for some people, but I'm *very* dubious that even for them it resembles pathological dissociation experientially, based on my own experiences of both states. > If, for some reason, they have some pathology or violent tendencies > then they may act on them. Certain drugs or drug combinations, or > even acting out behaviors well outside the norms and taboos of society > may serve as the stimulus. > > Hannibal Lecter as a force of nature. > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > > > > > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > > > > > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > > > > > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > > > > > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. > > > > > > > > Mark David Chapman described his experience of shooting John > > Lennon > > > > as one where he was watching what he was doing as a separate > > entity > > > > from himself. > > > > > > Pathological dissociation and "witnessing" a la TM > > > may sound similar in verbal descriptions but are very > > > different things. > > > > You should know. > > In fact, she's already stated that she has had both experiences... Not sure I've done so here. The dissociation experience was many years ago, before I started TM, during an episode of clinical depression (which, thank goodness, has never recurred). It was scary and unpleasant. I felt fragmented and scattered, as if I'd lost whatever it was that gave me the sense of being a complete person. Witnessing experiences that I've had since I've been practicing TM have been characterized by an enormous sense of *relief*, as if a great burden has been lifted. There has also been a sense of wholeness, which is paradoxical because the experience is one of *separation* of Self and activity. I'd never mistake one experience for the other. They're simply of different orders. One made me feel less than myself, the other more than myself, is another way of putting it. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
Comment below: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > > wrote: > > > > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > > > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > > > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > > > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > > > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. > > > > Mark David Chapman described his experience of shooting John Lennon > > as one where he was watching what he was doing as a separate entity > > from himself. > > Pathological dissociation and "witnessing" a la TM > may sound similar in verbal descriptions but are very > different things. > **END** I don't feel that's necessarily so. It's not implausible that certain individuals have clear experiences of transcendence and witnessing, but without the philosophical grounding or preparation for what those experiences are, and consequently their psychology can't handle it. If, for some reason, they have some pathology or violent tendencies then they may act on them. Certain drugs or drug combinations, or even acting out behaviors well outside the norms and taboos of society may serve as the stimulus. Hannibal Lecter as a force of nature. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer wrote: > > > > on 8/5/06 12:01 PM, shempmcgurk at shempmcgurk@ wrote: > > >> > > > >> > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > > >> > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > > >> > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > > >> > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > > >> > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. > > > > > > Mark David Chapman described his experience of shooting John Lennon > > > as one where he was watching what he was doing as a separate entity > > > from himself. > > > > > Sir Edmond Hillary spoke in similar terms about how he felt during > his final > > ascent of Everest, severely sleep and oxygen deprived. > > > > > A friend of mine -- a former TM teacher -- said that he read somewhere > that witnessing is how Osama Bin Laden experienceed an assassination > attempt...it was a religious experience to him and it changed his life. > Dysfunctional people see the oddest things as signs of religious experience... http://google.scholar.com keywords "dissociation EEG" http://tinyurl.com/g9upd Abstract: In this study, we explored whether individual differences in dissociation are related to certain resting electroencephalographic (EEG) parameters. Baseline EEG with eyes open and closed was recorded in an undergraduate sample (N = 67). Cortical power in the [alpha] range was inversely related to dissociative symptoms as measured by the Dissociative Experiences Scale, while both [delta] and [theta] power where positively related to dissociation. However, sleep experiences, as indexed with the Iowa Sleep Experiences Survey, were unrelated to resting EEG characteristics. We propose that suppression in the [alpha] band and raised levels of [theta] activity, which are typical for high dissociators, might help to explain why dissociative symptoms are accompanied by attentional and memory deficits. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > > > wrote: > > > > > > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > > > > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > > > > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > > > > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > > > > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. > > > > > > Mark David Chapman described his experience of shooting John > Lennon > > > as one where he was watching what he was doing as a separate > entity > > > from himself. > > > > Pathological dissociation and "witnessing" a la TM > > may sound similar in verbal descriptions but are very > > different things. > > > > You should know. > In fact, she's already stated that she has had both experiences... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > > wrote: > > > > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > > > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > > > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > > > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > > > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. > > > > Mark David Chapman described his experience of shooting John Lennon > > as one where he was watching what he was doing as a separate entity > > from himself. > > Pathological dissociation and "witnessing" a la TM > may sound similar in verbal descriptions but are very > different things. > As the physiological studies on dissociation/derealization/depersonalization are starting to show. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" > > wrote: > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer > wrote: > > > > > The problem as I see it is that those running the movement have > no > > > choice but to adhere to the following logic: > > > > > > > > 1. Maharishi is enlightened. > > > > 2. Therefore, everything he thinks and says expresses the > truth, > > > > even though I and the world at large may not understand it. > > > > 3. Therefore, I should stay in tune with his thinking (as I am > > > > told to do). > > > > > I agree that Maharishi is enlightened, however about five years > > > after I started TM I read his commentary on the BG, chaps. 1-6 > and > > > his SBAL books, and in there he clearly says directly that in > order > > > to gain enlightenment most efficiently for ourselves we should > do > > > *our* own dharma, although someone else's may seem very > attractive. > > > > Not only that, but the notion that "everything he > > thinks and says expresses the truth" is not at all > > consistent with his teaching, if by "truth" you mean > > *relative* truth, at least as I understand him. > > > > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. > > > Mark David Chapman described his experience of shooting John Lennon > as one where he was watching what he was doing as a separate entity > from himself. Derealization, a well-defined psychiatric disorder, oftimes due to childhood trauma which apparently can cause measureable brain dysfunction, which coincidentally is radically different than the brain function of someone in the TM witnessing state. The witnessing-like phenomenon reported by the derealized person may SOUND like TM witnessing, but it apparently is not the same physical state or at least, the EEG studies show radically different states: the depersonalization people often show a marked imbalance of activity between the right and left hemispheres with the intellectual side dominating way more than normal, because the other side shows a lack of emotional/ intuitive development. Coincidentally, long-term practitioners of certain meditation techniques also report witnessing and they show the same dominance imballance, although the emotional/ intuitive side of the brain is not dysfunctional --the intellectual side is merely hyperactive. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ingegerd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer wrote: > > > > on 8/5/06 2:59 AM, cardemaister at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > http://www.whatfilms.com/vbw/index2.php > > > > Pretty cool. Very professionally put together. I wonder who did > it? Now if > > only they could get rid of all the insane stuff which scares > people away > > once they scratch beneath the surface, this could take off. The > problem as I > > see it is that those running the movement have no choice but to > adhere to > > the following logic: > > > > 1. Maharishi is enlightened. > > 2. Therefore, everything he thinks and says expresses the truth, > even though > > I and the world at large may not understand it. > > 3. Therefore, I should stay in tune with his thinking (as I am > told to do). > > 4. Therefore, on the one hand, I¹ll present the scientifically > proven > > benefits of TM and hope that the people I¹m presenting them to > don¹t find > > out about Rajas, Majesties, World¹s Tallest Buildings, Damn > Democracy, > > Praise Robert Mugabe, destroy and rebuild the world¹s cities, > etc., until > > they are as ³sold out² as I am. > > > It must be like balancing on an edge for the recert.Teacher. Do they > have to tell about the Majesties in the first TM-lecture and present > the Raja in their country later on - or do they try to hide it as > long as possible. For us the Independent TM-Teacher, it is quite > easy, we can laugh it away, telling that we are not a part of that > nonsens. > Ingegerd > And a recert can laugh it away also, explaining that its a silly requirement that MMY came up with as a test of ego and dedication to the TM organization. Those who can't see this are showing their own stripes, I think. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer wrote: > > > > on 8/5/06 2:59 AM, cardemaister at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > http://www.whatfilms.com/vbw/index2.php > > > > Pretty cool. Very professionally put together. I wonder who did > it? Now if > > only they could get rid of all the insane stuff which scares > people away > > once they scratch beneath the surface, this could take off. The > problem as I > > see it is that those running the movement have no choice but to > adhere to > > the following logic: > > > > 1. Maharishi is enlightened. > > 2. Therefore, everything he thinks and says expresses the truth, > even though > > I and the world at large may not understand it. > > 3. Therefore, I should stay in tune with his thinking (as I am > told to do). > > 4. Therefore, on the one hand, I¹ll present the scientifically > proven > > benefits of TM and hope that the people I¹m presenting them to > don¹t find > > out about Rajas, Majesties, World¹s Tallest Buildings, Damn > Democracy, > > Praise Robert Mugabe, destroy and rebuild the world¹s cities, > etc., until > > they are as ³sold out² as I am. > > > > Hopefully, after Maharishi dies, people will be able to break away > from this > > ³logic² and make the TMO as sensible on every level as it appears > in movies > > like this. Don¹t hold your breath. > > > > I agree that Maharishi is enlightened, however about five years > after I started TM I read his commentary on the BG, chaps. 1-6 and > his SBAL books, and in there he clearly says directly that in order > to gain enlightenment most efficiently for ourselves we should do > *our* own dharma, although someone else's may seem very attractive. > > BG, Chapter 3, v.35- > "Because one can perform it, one's own dharma, (though) lesser in > merit, is better than the dharma of another. Better is death in > one's own dharma: the dharma of another brings great danger." > > I remember when I thought I wanted to become a TM teacher and being > faced with the question of being myself and accepting the process > [of TTC] through who I knew myself to be, and it didn't fit. Same > with many of the things Maharishi has brought out. I learned to > understand his thinking by listening to hundreds of hours of his > tapes, and the way he arranges the sequence of his thoughts vs. > cherry picking the things he says for their possible cognitive > dissonance. > > By both always remembering who I am and where I am in terms of what > I am working towards, and by not selling out to the specifics of > everything that comes from the TMO, I am able to recognize > Maharishi's enlightenment, while living my own life as I see fit. My > life, my Dharma. > IIRC, he also says that the practice of TM is the ultimate dharma, suitable for everyone... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer wrote: > > > The problem as I see it is that those running the movement have no > > choice but to adhere to the following logic: > > > > > > 1. Maharishi is enlightened. > > > 2. Therefore, everything he thinks and says expresses the truth, > > > even though I and the world at large may not understand it. > > > 3. Therefore, I should stay in tune with his thinking (as I am > > > told to do). > > > I agree that Maharishi is enlightened, however about five years > > after I started TM I read his commentary on the BG, chaps. 1-6 and > > his SBAL books, and in there he clearly says directly that in order > > to gain enlightenment most efficiently for ourselves we should do > > *our* own dharma, although someone else's may seem very attractive. > > Not only that, but the notion that "everything he > thinks and says expresses the truth" is not at all > consistent with his teaching, if by "truth" you mean > *relative* truth, at least as I understand him. > > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. > > "Unfathomable is the course of action." That covers > a lot of territory, and I think as TMers we often > don't realize its implications. > > As I see it, Nature could very well, for some reason > known only to Nature, "want" the enlightened person > to do something *wrong*, in relative terms--make a > mistake. This would *not* be a mistake in Nature's > terms, so it doesn't contradict the notion that the > enlightened person never makes a mistake. It's just > to point out that we may misunderstand what "mistake" > refers to. > > Moreover, the enlightened person would have no idea > he was making the mistake. > > Why would Nature do such a thing? It seems to me one > plausible reason (although we can never tell for sure) > would be to create cognitive dissonance in the minds of > those who are too blindly accepting of what the > enlightened person says and does, to prod followers > to start thinking for themselves and, as Jim says, > doing their own dharma--and, perhaps, acquiring a > clearer understanding of what "no mistakes" means in > relation to enlightenment. > The thing to keep in mind in all of this is that it is *we* who are wanting to gain Self Realization, not the person who we are following. Therefore it is important at a certain stage of seeking, when we know all of the key information cold, to begin to apply it to ourselves, evaluating and discriminating. The BG says this is the way to enlighten the mind. And by applying it through action, we enlighten the heart. The enlightened person acts in perfect accord with Nature. But, those who are unenlightened, who have not yet fully gained Self Realization will not see this. It is only fully comprehensible from the perspective of another who has gained permanent Self Realization. So, if it is we who are attempting to gain perfect accord with Nature through Self Realization, then we should learn to follow our own path to get there, not someone elses. I remember many, many times when I just felt compelled to do things that were 'verbotten' under TMO 'law', such as eat meat, or smoke a cigarette. Just had to. Couldn't get past it by going over it or under it. Had to face it, and do it. And by carefully integrating my dharma with what I had been taught, the goal was reached. NOT that I am advocating smoking or a non-vegetarian diet...that was something personal just for me. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > > wrote: > > > > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > > > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > > > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > > > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > > > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. > > > > Mark David Chapman described his experience of shooting John Lennon > > as one where he was watching what he was doing as a separate entity > > from himself. > > Pathological dissociation and "witnessing" a la TM > may sound similar in verbal descriptions but are very > different things. > You should know. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > on 8/5/06 12:01 PM, shempmcgurk at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> > > >> > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > >> > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > >> > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > >> > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > >> > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. > > > > Mark David Chapman described his experience of shooting John Lennon > > as one where he was watching what he was doing as a separate entity > > from himself. > > > Sir Edmond Hillary spoke in similar terms about how he felt during his final > ascent of Everest, severely sleep and oxygen deprived. > A friend of mine -- a former TM teacher -- said that he read somewhere that witnessing is how Osama Bin Laden experienceed an assassination attempt...it was a religious experience to him and it changed his life. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" > wrote: > > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. > > Mark David Chapman described his experience of shooting John Lennon > as one where he was watching what he was doing as a separate entity > from himself. Pathological dissociation and "witnessing" a la TM may sound similar in verbal descriptions but are very different things. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War? on 8/5/06 12:01 PM, shempmcgurk at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. Mark David Chapman described his experience of shooting John Lennon as one where he was watching what he was doing as a separate entity from himself. Sir Edmond Hillary spoke in similar terms about how he felt during his final ascent of Everest, severely sleep and oxygen deprived. __._,_.___ To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer wrote: > > > The problem as I see it is that those running the movement have no > > choice but to adhere to the following logic: > > > > > > 1. Maharishi is enlightened. > > > 2. Therefore, everything he thinks and says expresses the truth, > > > even though I and the world at large may not understand it. > > > 3. Therefore, I should stay in tune with his thinking (as I am > > > told to do). > > > I agree that Maharishi is enlightened, however about five years > > after I started TM I read his commentary on the BG, chaps. 1-6 and > > his SBAL books, and in there he clearly says directly that in order > > to gain enlightenment most efficiently for ourselves we should do > > *our* own dharma, although someone else's may seem very attractive. > > Not only that, but the notion that "everything he > thinks and says expresses the truth" is not at all > consistent with his teaching, if by "truth" you mean > *relative* truth, at least as I understand him. > > He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the > enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," > but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the > *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or > that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. Mark David Chapman described his experience of shooting John Lennon as one where he was watching what he was doing as a separate entity from himself. > > "Unfathomable is the course of action." That covers > a lot of territory, and I think as TMers we often > don't realize its implications. > > As I see it, Nature could very well, for some reason > known only to Nature, "want" the enlightened person > to do something *wrong*, in relative terms--make a > mistake. This would *not* be a mistake in Nature's > terms, so it doesn't contradict the notion that the > enlightened person never makes a mistake. It's just > to point out that we may misunderstand what "mistake" > refers to. > > Moreover, the enlightened person would have no idea > he was making the mistake. > > Why would Nature do such a thing? It seems to me one > plausible reason (although we can never tell for sure) > would be to create cognitive dissonance in the minds of > those who are too blindly accepting of what the > enlightened person says and does, to prod followers > to start thinking for themselves and, as Jim says, > doing their own dharma--and, perhaps, acquiring a > clearer understanding of what "no mistakes" means in > relation to enlightenment. > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer wrote: > > > > on 8/5/06 2:59 AM, cardemaister at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > http://www.whatfilms.com/vbw/index2.php > > > > Pretty cool. Very professionally put together. I wonder who did > it? Now if > > only they could get rid of all the insane stuff which scares > people away > > once they scratch beneath the surface, this could take off. The > problem as I > > see it is that those running the movement have no choice but to > adhere to > > the following logic: > > > > 1. Maharishi is enlightened. > > 2. Therefore, everything he thinks and says expresses the truth, > even though > > I and the world at large may not understand it. > > 3. Therefore, I should stay in tune with his thinking (as I am > told to do). > > 4. Therefore, on the one hand, I¹ll present the scientifically > proven > > benefits of TM and hope that the people I¹m presenting them to > don¹t find > > out about Rajas, Majesties, World¹s Tallest Buildings, Damn > Democracy, > > Praise Robert Mugabe, destroy and rebuild the world¹s cities, > etc., until > > they are as ³sold out² as I am. > > > > Hopefully, after Maharishi dies, people will be able to break away > from this > > ³logic² and make the TMO as sensible on every level as it appears > in movies > > like this. Don¹t hold your breath. > > > > I agree that Maharishi is enlightened, however about five years > after I started TM I read his commentary on the BG, chaps. 1-6 and > his SBAL books, and in there he clearly says directly that in order > to gain enlightenment most efficiently for ourselves we should do > *our* own dharma, although someone else's may seem very attractive. > > BG, Chapter 3, v.35- > "Because one can perform it, one's own dharma, (though) lesser in > merit, is better than the dharma of another. Better is death in > one's own dharma: the dharma of another brings great danger." > > I remember when I thought I wanted to become a TM teacher and being > faced with the question of being myself and accepting the process > [of TTC] through who I knew myself to be, and it didn't fit. Boy, I wished someone had said that to me before I sent to TTC. > Same > with many of the things Maharishi has brought out. I learned to > understand his thinking by listening to hundreds of hours of his > tapes, and the way he arranges the sequence of his thoughts vs. > cherry picking the things he says for their possible cognitive > dissonance. > > By both always remembering who I am and where I am in terms of what > I am working towards, and by not selling out to the specifics of > everything that comes from the TMO, I am able to recognize > Maharishi's enlightenment, while living my own life as I see fit. My > life, my Dharma. > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War? on 8/5/06 11:34 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As I see it, Nature could very well, for some reason known only to Nature, "want" the enlightened person to do something *wrong*, in relative terms--make a mistake. This would *not* be a mistake in Nature's terms, so it doesn't contradict the notion that the enlightened person never makes a mistake. It's just to point out that we may misunderstand what "mistake" refers to. Moreover, the enlightened person would have no idea he was making the mistake. Why would Nature do such a thing? It seems to me one plausible reason (although we can never tell for sure) would be to create cognitive dissonance in the minds of those who are too blindly accepting of what the enlightened person says and does, to prod followers to start thinking for themselves and, as Jim says, doing their own dharma--and, perhaps, acquiring a clearer understanding of what "no mistakes" means in relation to enlightenment. Could be. Nice way to look at it. But that’s not how the TMO operates. The TMO adheres to it’s own version of Papal Infallibility. __._,_.___ To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer wrote: > The problem as I see it is that those running the movement have no > choice but to adhere to the following logic: > > > > 1. Maharishi is enlightened. > > 2. Therefore, everything he thinks and says expresses the truth, > > even though I and the world at large may not understand it. > > 3. Therefore, I should stay in tune with his thinking (as I am > > told to do). > I agree that Maharishi is enlightened, however about five years > after I started TM I read his commentary on the BG, chaps. 1-6 and > his SBAL books, and in there he clearly says directly that in order > to gain enlightenment most efficiently for ourselves we should do > *our* own dharma, although someone else's may seem very attractive. Not only that, but the notion that "everything he thinks and says expresses the truth" is not at all consistent with his teaching, if by "truth" you mean *relative* truth, at least as I understand him. He's quite explicit in his Gita commentary that the enlightened person's actions are what Nature "wants," but that the person doesn't necessarily grasp the *reason* why Nature "wants" him to do or say this or that; it's just automatic and spontaneous. "Unfathomable is the course of action." That covers a lot of territory, and I think as TMers we often don't realize its implications. As I see it, Nature could very well, for some reason known only to Nature, "want" the enlightened person to do something *wrong*, in relative terms--make a mistake. This would *not* be a mistake in Nature's terms, so it doesn't contradict the notion that the enlightened person never makes a mistake. It's just to point out that we may misunderstand what "mistake" refers to. Moreover, the enlightened person would have no idea he was making the mistake. Why would Nature do such a thing? It seems to me one plausible reason (although we can never tell for sure) would be to create cognitive dissonance in the minds of those who are too blindly accepting of what the enlightened person says and does, to prod followers to start thinking for themselves and, as Jim says, doing their own dharma--and, perhaps, acquiring a clearer understanding of what "no mistakes" means in relation to enlightenment. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ingegerd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer wrote: > > > > on 8/5/06 2:59 AM, cardemaister at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > http://www.whatfilms.com/vbw/index2.php > > > > Pretty cool. Very professionally put together. I wonder who did > it? Now if > > only they could get rid of all the insane stuff which scares > people away > > once they scratch beneath the surface, this could take off. The > problem as I > > see it is that those running the movement have no choice but to > adhere to > > the following logic: > > > > 1. Maharishi is enlightened. > > 2. Therefore, everything he thinks and says expresses the truth, > even though > > I and the world at large may not understand it. > > 3. Therefore, I should stay in tune with his thinking (as I am > told to do). > > 4. Therefore, on the one hand, I¹ll present the scientifically > proven > > benefits of TM and hope that the people I¹m presenting them to > don¹t find > > out about Rajas, Majesties, World¹s Tallest Buildings, Damn > Democracy, > > Praise Robert Mugabe, destroy and rebuild the world¹s cities, > etc., until > > they are as ³sold out² as I am. > > > It must be like balancing on an edge for the recert.Teacher. Do they > have to tell about the Majesties in the first TM-lecture and present > the Raja in their country later on - or do they try to hide it as > long as possible. For us the Independent TM-Teacher, it is quite > easy, we can laugh it away, telling that we are not a part of that > nonsens. > Ingegerd Thankfully the recerts (why do I think of "Blade Runner" and other science-fiction every time I hear the term "recerts"?) won't have to worry to much about it because no one is beating down their doors to get to TM. Gee, I wonder how many initiations have been done in the USA since the recert course...20? 30? Hmm. > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > on 8/5/06 2:59 AM, cardemaister at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > http://www.whatfilms.com/vbw/index2.php > > Pretty cool. Very professionally put together. I wonder who did it? Now if > only they could get rid of all the insane stuff which scares people away > once they scratch beneath the surface, this could take off. The problem as I > see it is that those running the movement have no choice but to adhere to > the following logic: > > 1. Maharishi is enlightened. > 2. Therefore, everything he thinks and says expresses the truth, even though > I and the world at large may not understand it. > 3. Therefore, I should stay in tune with his thinking (as I am told to do). > 4. Therefore, on the one hand, I¹ll present the scientifically proven > benefits of TM and hope that the people I¹m presenting them to don¹t find > out about Rajas, Majesties, World¹s Tallest Buildings, Damn Democracy, > Praise Robert Mugabe, destroy and rebuild the world¹s cities, etc., I know you put in "etc." but you forgot my favourites: - America is the cause of all the wrong in the world; - Israel is "murderers" - The CIA infiltrated the TMO - Weighing Nader in gold. > until > they are as ³sold out² as I am. > > Hopefully, after Maharishi dies, people will be able to break away from this > ³logic² and make the TMO as sensible on every level as it appears in movies > like this. Don¹t hold your breath. > To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > on 8/5/06 2:59 AM, cardemaister at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > http://www.whatfilms.com/vbw/index2.php > > Pretty cool. Very professionally put together. I wonder who did it? Now if > only they could get rid of all the insane stuff which scares people away > once they scratch beneath the surface, this could take off. The problem as I > see it is that those running the movement have no choice but to adhere to > the following logic: > > 1. Maharishi is enlightened. > 2. Therefore, everything he thinks and says expresses the truth, even though > I and the world at large may not understand it. > 3. Therefore, I should stay in tune with his thinking (as I am told to do). > 4. Therefore, on the one hand, I¹ll present the scientifically proven > benefits of TM and hope that the people I¹m presenting them to don¹t find > out about Rajas, Majesties, World¹s Tallest Buildings, Damn Democracy, > Praise Robert Mugabe, destroy and rebuild the world¹s cities, etc., until > they are as ³sold out² as I am. > > Hopefully, after Maharishi dies, people will be able to break away from this > ³logic² and make the TMO as sensible on every level as it appears in movies > like this. Don¹t hold your breath. > I agree that Maharishi is enlightened, however about five years after I started TM I read his commentary on the BG, chaps. 1-6 and his SBAL books, and in there he clearly says directly that in order to gain enlightenment most efficiently for ourselves we should do *our* own dharma, although someone else's may seem very attractive. BG, Chapter 3, v.35- "Because one can perform it, one's own dharma, (though) lesser in merit, is better than the dharma of another. Better is death in one's own dharma: the dharma of another brings great danger." I remember when I thought I wanted to become a TM teacher and being faced with the question of being myself and accepting the process [of TTC] through who I knew myself to be, and it didn't fit. Same with many of the things Maharishi has brought out. I learned to understand his thinking by listening to hundreds of hours of his tapes, and the way he arranges the sequence of his thoughts vs. cherry picking the things he says for their possible cognitive dissonance. By both always remembering who I am and where I am in terms of what I am working towards, and by not selling out to the specifics of everything that comes from the TMO, I am able to recognize Maharishi's enlightenment, while living my own life as I see fit. My life, my Dharma. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Victory Beef or War?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > on 8/5/06 2:59 AM, cardemaister at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > http://www.whatfilms.com/vbw/index2.php > > Pretty cool. Very professionally put together. I wonder who did it? Now if > only they could get rid of all the insane stuff which scares people away > once they scratch beneath the surface, this could take off. The problem as I > see it is that those running the movement have no choice but to adhere to > the following logic: > > 1. Maharishi is enlightened. > 2. Therefore, everything he thinks and says expresses the truth, even though > I and the world at large may not understand it. > 3. Therefore, I should stay in tune with his thinking (as I am told to do). > 4. Therefore, on the one hand, I¹ll present the scientifically proven > benefits of TM and hope that the people I¹m presenting them to don¹t find > out about Rajas, Majesties, World¹s Tallest Buildings, Damn Democracy, > Praise Robert Mugabe, destroy and rebuild the world¹s cities, etc., until > they are as ³sold out² as I am. > It must be like balancing on an edge for the recert.Teacher. Do they have to tell about the Majesties in the first TM-lecture and present the Raja in their country later on - or do they try to hide it as long as possible. For us the Independent TM-Teacher, it is quite easy, we can laugh it away, telling that we are not a part of that nonsens. Ingegerd To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
