subject:"F8\(1\) vs multimedia production\(0\)"

On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 10:10 +0930, Tim wrote:
 Patrick O'Callaghan:
  Yes it does. If you hit Reply the cursor is left at the top of the
  quoted material and has to be manually moved to the bottom. That to me
  is encouraging top-posting. I reported this on the Evo Bugzilla a
  while back, and after exchanging views with the devels was told they
  would add an option to change this in a future version.
 
 If it put blank space above the quoted text, with the cursor there, and
 quoted text *further* below, I'd tend to agree.  But it doesn't, the
 quoted text is right at the top of the page.  That's not exactly
 conducive to typing there.

IIRC this is actually what it used to do (I may be wrong). Why it
stopped doing that but didn't go the whole hog and actually put the
cursor at the bottom is something I don't understand. The current
behaviour looks like something no-one is likely to be happy with.

Also, moving the cursor to the bottom can only be done using the mouse,
whereas typing a couple of carriage returns and backing up can be done
with the keyboard, i.e. it's easier to top-post than not.

The insane thing is that it still does this even when you quote
selectively, i.e. when it's even more likely that you want to add
something *after* the quoted material.

poc

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 19:36 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
  
  Gmail also encourages top-posting, though at least the quoting mechanism
  is a bit more standard.
  
 
 You do know how to move the cursor, don't you?

I'm going to assume this is a rhetorical question.

 Starting with the cursor 
 at the top shouldn't encourage you to top-post, it should encourage you 
 to move down through the quoted text, deleting unwanted context and 
 adding your response in line in each section.

OK, let's look at the possibilities:

Policy: leave the cursor at the top
User wants to top-post: starts typing
User wants to bottom-post: has to scroll before typing
User wants inline comments: has to scroll before typing

Policy: put the cursor at the bottom:
User wants to top-post: has to scroll before typing
User wants to bottom-post: starts typing
User wants inline comments: has to scroll before typing

Which of the two policies is more conducive to top-posting?

poc

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-15 Thread g

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
snip
 Also, moving the cursor to the bottom can only be done using the mouse,
 whereas typing a couple of carriage returns and backing up can be done
 with the keyboard, i.e. it's easier to top-post than not.

so you are saying page and arrow keys do not work? bummer...

- --
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g
.

in a free world without fences, who needs gates.

learn linux:
'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition'   http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz
'The Linux Documentation Project'   http://www.tldp.org/

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-15 Thread Tim

Tim:
 But it doesn't, the quoted text is right at the top of the page. 
 That's not exactly conducive to typing there.

Patrick O'Callaghan:
 IIRC this is actually what it used to do (I may be wrong).

It's what it actually does, here...

 Why it stopped doing that but didn't go the whole hog and actually put
 the cursor at the bottom is something I don't understand. The current
 behaviour looks like something no-one is likely to be happy with.

There's just no pleasing some people.../python  ;-)
 
 Also, moving the cursor to the bottom can only be done using the mouse

Nup, I didn't need the mouse to move it.  If anything, having the mouse
at the top is quicker for when first remove extraneous quoted material.
Most replies require quite a bit of snippage, often in more than one
place.

 The insane thing is that it still does this even when you quote
 selectively, i.e. when it's even more likely that you want to add
 something *after* the quoted material.

Yes, in that case, it would make more sense to place the cursor at the
end.

I'm not saying Evolution's not annoying (he says, smirking at the pun),
but I find other clients even more so.

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)


Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:


Also, moving the cursor to the bottom can only be done using the mouse,
whereas typing a couple of carriage returns and backing up can be done
with the keyboard, i.e. it's easier to top-post than not.


What interface won't move the cursor with the arrow keys, selecting as 
you go if you also hold down shift?  Normally you can shift-arrow down 
as you read, stopping at anything you'd like to keep quoted, hit delete 
to remove the selected part above, go on past the context you want to 
keep and add your response, then continue down, selecting more to 
delete.  It is all fairly natural and the technique works with anything 
following user interface standards from the last few decades.  I think 
it goes at least back to IBM's CUA published in 1987.



The insane thing is that it still does this even when you quote
selectively, i.e. when it's even more likely that you want to add
something *after* the quoted material.


Why do you care where the editor thinks you want the cursor?  Put it 
where _you_ want it.  And delete junk as you go.


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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)


Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 19:36 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:

Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

Gmail also encourages top-posting, though at least the quoting mechanism
is a bit more standard.


You do know how to move the cursor, don't you?


I'm going to assume this is a rhetorical question.

Starting with the cursor 
at the top shouldn't encourage you to top-post, it should encourage you 
to move down through the quoted text, deleting unwanted context and 
adding your response in line in each section.


OK, let's look at the possibilities:

Policy: leave the cursor at the top
User wants to top-post: starts typing
User wants to bottom-post: has to scroll before typing
User wants inline comments: has to scroll before typing

Policy: put the cursor at the bottom:

User wants to top-post: has to scroll before typing
User wants to bottom-post: starts typing
User wants inline comments: has to scroll before typing

Which of the two policies is more conducive to top-posting?


None of the above. The choice is all up to you.  The policies don't 
determine the location of what you post any more than they determine the 
content.


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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 10:43 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
[...]
 None of the above. The choice is all up to you.  The policies don't 
 determine the location of what you post any more than they determine the 
 content.

You seem to have completely missed the point of what I'm saying. I am
*not* in any way suggesting that the default cursor location is a
limitation. How could it be? The very idea is ridiculous. What I *am*
saying is that certain policies encourage certain behaviour. IMHO the
incidence of top-posting on this and other lists is in some degree
caused by these policies, since many users simply can't be bothered
moving the cursor from its default position.

That's all.

poc

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 10:40 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
  
  Also, moving the cursor to the bottom can only be done using the mouse,
  whereas typing a couple of carriage returns and backing up can be done
  with the keyboard, i.e. it's easier to top-post than not.
[...]
 Why do you care where the editor thinks you want the cursor?  Put it 
 where _you_ want it.  And delete junk as you go.

Because I'm lazy and want it to DWIM (Do What I Mean). You mean to say
that's not what everyone wants?

poc

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)


Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:


Also, moving the cursor to the bottom can only be done using the mouse,
whereas typing a couple of carriage returns and backing up can be done
with the keyboard, i.e. it's easier to top-post than not.

[...]
Why do you care where the editor thinks you want the cursor?  Put it 
where _you_ want it.  And delete junk as you go.


Because I'm lazy and want it to DWIM (Do What I Mean). You mean to say
that's not what everyone wants?


Even if you don't care about cleaning up the context you are about to 
force everyone else to wade through, you have to be really, really lazy 
to not be able to punch control-end or control-home to jump from one end 
to the other.


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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 12:29 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
 
  Also, moving the cursor to the bottom can only be done using the mouse,
  whereas typing a couple of carriage returns and backing up can be done
  with the keyboard, i.e. it's easier to top-post than not.
  [...]
  Why do you care where the editor thinks you want the cursor?  Put it 
  where _you_ want it.  And delete junk as you go.
  
  Because I'm lazy and want it to DWIM (Do What I Mean). You mean to say
  that's not what everyone wants?
 
 Even if you don't care about cleaning up the context you are about to 
 force everyone else to wade through

You mean like I just did when replying to you? Why do you keep mixing up
the default initial cursor placement with editing the context?

 you have to be really, really lazy 
 to not be able to punch control-end or control-home to jump from one end 
 to the other.

Not so much lazy as ignorant. I have to say I have never heard of this.
I've never used an editor where this is the standard (neither vi nor
emacs work this way). I see OpenOffice does, but I can't say I think of
word-processing commands when using an email composer. Maybe I'm just
old-fashioned.

BTW the Evo documentation says nothing about it that I can see, neither
in the online help nor in the quick reference sheet.

poc

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 12:10 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
  On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 10:43 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
  [...]
  None of the above. The choice is all up to you.  The policies don't 
  determine the location of what you post any more than they determine the 
  content.
  
  You seem to have completely missed the point of what I'm saying. I am
  *not* in any way suggesting that the default cursor location is a
  limitation. How could it be? The very idea is ridiculous. What I *am*
  saying is that certain policies encourage certain behaviour. IMHO the
  incidence of top-posting on this and other lists is in some degree
  caused by these policies, since many users simply can't be bothered
  moving the cursor from its default position.
  
  That's all.
 
 But the top is the correct position for anyone who intends to move 
 logically through a document, changing it to what they want it to 
 become.  If you don't intend to do that, and as you suggest, there are 
 people who don't, there's not much a program can do about it.

Going round in circles I think. If people aren't going to bother, is it
not preferable to leave the cursor at the bottom? If they are going to
bother, you just mentioned in another post that this is a keystroke away
(something I didn't know).

poc

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)


Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:


Even if you don't care about cleaning up the context you are about to 
force everyone else to wade through


You mean like I just did when replying to you? Why do you keep mixing up
the default initial cursor placement with editing the context?


They aren't mixed up - they are both something you change to suit 
yourself regardless of the initial state.


you have to be really, really lazy 
to not be able to punch control-end or control-home to jump from one end 
to the other.


Not so much lazy as ignorant. I have to say I have never heard of this.
I've never used an editor where this is the standard (neither vi nor
emacs work this way). I see OpenOffice does, but I can't say I think of
word-processing commands when using an email composer. Maybe I'm just
old-fashioned.


I did say that things written in the last 2 decades use the standards 
that mostly started with IBM's 1987 CUA (common user interface) work. 
Emacs and vi predate that and don't follow any standards.



BTW the Evo documentation says nothing about it that I can see, neither
in the online help nor in the quick reference sheet.


I'm not sure where to find the current standard interface tricks but the 
keyboard ones mostly go back to character mode days.  But I normally 
surf the inbox and preview pane with the mouse/scroll wheel (you can 
hover over the preview window and scroll without losing focus on the 
header window so up/down/delete keys continue to work there) and use it 
to click the reply button, so my hand is on the mouse when the reply 
window opens and it is easiest to just click where I want to start, 
ignoring the default cursor position.


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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-15 Thread Tim

On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 12:26 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
 What I *am* saying is that certain policies encourage certain
 behaviour. IMHO the incidence of top-posting on this and other lists
 is in some degree caused by these policies, since many users simply
 can't be bothered moving the cursor from its default position.

About the only thing that's going to work is a whacking great big prompt
*in* the mail client that points to the space below and says:  Type your
reply down here.  Clues need a clue-by-four.  Those that ignore the
clue need a red hot branding iron.

In all serious, without an explicit instruction, well ahead of time,
some people are never going to know better, never mind about those who
don't give a damn.

Screenshot:  http://imagebin.ca/view/BRrykNv.html  which is deliberately
over-the-top, to be amusing.  I had thought of using GIF, so I could
make it flash, but I think that might have been going too far.  ;-)

I tried posting it here, but it didn't seem to make it through.  So
rather than risk a double *big* post, reposting it, I've put the image
separate from the message.  If there's a size limit to attachments on
this list, I don't know what it is, and it doesn't seem to notify the
original poster about any rejections.

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 08:52 +0930, Tim wrote:
 In all serious, without an explicit instruction, well ahead of time,
 some people are never going to know better, never mind about those who
 don't give a damn.

Well, I disagree. I think the ui can nudge the user in certain
directions. In fact my point is that it already *does* nudge the user in
certain directions. This is inevitable.

 Screenshot:  http://imagebin.ca/view/BRrykNv.html  which is
 deliberately
 over-the-top, to be amusing.  I had thought of using GIF, so I could
 make it flash, but I think that might have been going too far.  ;-)

Very good :-)

poc

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)


Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

I did say that things written in the last 2 decades use the standards 
that mostly started with IBM's 1987 CUA (common user interface) work. 
Emacs and vi predate that and don't follow any standards.


Well I've been using Unix since 1975 and never even heard of this (or
have long forgotten it, who knows?). It would be interesting to have a
straw poll on this list to see how many people know what it is. Does the
GNU documentation make any reference to it?

I've just had a look at the Wikipedia article
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_User_Access), where we find the
following gem:

CUA has never had significant impact on Unix terminal
applications.


Unix 'terminal' applications were mostly written before there was a 
standard terminal keyboard, much less a standard for using key modifiers 
along with cursor motion keys.  Before the IBM PC you could barely count 
on having a control key, and if you had arrow keys, shift and control 
weren't likely to work with them.


But, we aren't talking about terminal applications.  GUI applications 
have an evolving human interface standard that most things follow to one 
extent or another, and most of the current versions inherited their 
design from Motif which followed CUA.  I spend about equal amounts of 
time in windows/linux/mac apps and they mostly use the same 
motion/selection methods.  I think these days you'd learn them in early 
grade school or in a 'keyboarding' class required before high school.


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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread Lyvim Xaphir


On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 21:40 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
 
 
 On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 7:50 PM, Gene Heskett
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Nah. I've used kino before.  The button has been pushed, and
 Ubuntu 8.04 is
 coming in via ktorrent right now.
 
 Good for you. It's important to find a solution that works for you.
 For your sake, I sincerely hope that Canonical never reaches
 profitability. So that they will never have to re-evaluate their
 exposure to the potential legal risk that software patents represent
 to their business model in the jurisdictions where they sell and
 service their product..so you'll never have to go distro shopping
 again.
 
 -jef 

Fantastic work, Jeff.  Now we have yet another loyal fedora user jumping
ship to go to ubuntu, after being told:

1.  You need to put up with the crappy apps you already have

2.  You need to use your valuable time on this earth to code and not
actually use the computer -- to help us with our crappy forced-licensing
ideology which is never going to work anyway btw

3.  Oh, you're going to Ubuntu?  Rots of ruck.

You know, one big brass-balled difference between M$ and Red Hat is
that, at MicroSoft, they tell the lawyers what to do.  At Red Hat, the
lawyers tell Red Hat what to do.   I'm seeing that it's a big f*king
difference.

This is the kind of dumb shit Alan Cox mentality that is killing Fedora.
I've heard enough excuses, it's done; there's no excuse at all for
another distro cleaning your clock when you were on the top of the heap
in the first place.  Why is it that Ubuntu just works without excuses,
and then on the fedora list all we hear is whah whah explanations and
justifications?  It's patently absurd when the infrastructure of Red Hat
itself is in fact RUNNING THE USERS OFF!

Oh yeah let me read the script from the peanut gallery that's entering
stage right; duh, shut up I don't want to hear it... whine whine excuse
whine excuse.etc.

Let's see how many more you run off.


LX



 

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread Lyvim Xaphir


On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 10:02 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
 Gene Heskett wrote:
 
  I've been with redhat/fedora for a bit over 10 years now for my main 
  machine.  
  When F8 support ends, I think that will be grounds for a divorce.  I'm 
  tired 
  of the keep the good stuff on the other side of the pond for legal 
  reasons 
  BS that is endlessly repeated from Research Triangle Park.  Why the hell 
  should we be 2nd class citizens?
 
 This issue has been discussed ad nauseum on this list.

Yeah, with you providing the nauseum part of it.
 
 What is your solution?  Does Red Hat allow the Fedora Project to include all 
 the bits and subject themselves to litigation?  Not include anything related 
 to multimedia?  Point their users to places to pick things up...and subject 
 themselves to litigation?

Litigation from who, exactly?  Who is going to sue RH for providing a
service that makes the OS actually function correctly after decades of
development?  Time is up, we are into the epoch of absurdity with the
question of functionality.  The only thing breaching the functionality
issue is a dumbass ideology that needs to be decided in court.

IF there needs to be a court battle to put the os in the people's favor
with other-licensed software, then that's a battle that needs to be
fought.  Your argument is that someone has the means or motivation to
stop functionality from being added to Fedora via another license; I
sincerely doubt that, but so what if that's the case?  If the battle
needs to be fought then it needs to be fought and no amount of hand
wringing  or head hiding from you will change that fact.

After decades of development, this ideology has no more excuses.  It is
now a barrier to the people, stopping other-licensed technology from
making the os usable.  Ubuntu has been put forward as a concrete
example.  It's the GNU Flagellants that are in the way of progress, not
anyone else.

LX

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread Ken Gullaksen




Lyvim Xaphir wrote:

On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 10:02 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
  


Litigation from who, exactly?  Who is going to sue RH for providing a
service that makes the OS actually function correctly after decades of
development?  Time is up, we are into the epoch of absurdity with the
question of functionality.  The only thing breaching the functionality
issue is a dumbass ideology that needs to be decided in court.
  
So what you want is for Fedora to disregard licenses and publicly 
redistribute content owned by other organizations? This is an absurd 
request.
That would make Fedora liable in a lawsuit, and then the result might be 
that Fedora would cease to exist in the end.


Anyway, why is this a discussion on the fedora mailing list. It does not 
help users of fedora, and merely creates distortion. I would suggest 
moving the discussion to another forum.


/ken

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread Ed Greshko


Lyvim Xaphir wrote:

On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 10:02 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:

Gene Heskett wrote:

I've been with redhat/fedora for a bit over 10 years now for my main machine.  
When F8 support ends, I think that will be grounds for a divorce.  I'm tired 
of the keep the good stuff on the other side of the pond for legal reasons 
BS that is endlessly repeated from Research Triangle Park.  Why the hell 
should we be 2nd class citizens?

This issue has been discussed ad nauseum on this list.

Yeah, with you providing the nauseum part of it.


Don't think so...  But you are certainly welcome to your opinion.

What is your solution?  Does Red Hat allow the Fedora Project to include all 
the bits and subject themselves to litigation?  Not include anything related 
to multimedia?  Point their users to places to pick things up...and subject 
themselves to litigation?


Litigation from who, exactly?  Who is going to sue RH for providing a
service that makes the OS actually function correctly after decades of
development?  Time is up, we are into the epoch of absurdity with the
question of functionality.  The only thing breaching the functionality
issue is a dumbass ideology that needs to be decided in court.


Me thinks you've not researched this too much.  This has 0 to do with O/S 
functionality.


What is being talked about is, for example, the fact that RH/Fedora does not 
provide the tools or libraries to play MP3 (for example) since MP3 requires 
that one obtain a license and pay royalties to those entities owning the 
particular patents.


Have a gander at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mp3#Licensing_and_patent_issues

Also, you can do yourself a favor and do some research about the Music and 
Video industry and find when they have sued to protect their rights.  You 
will learn why RH/Fedora doesn't include or give pointers to libdvdcss.


Hope you do some research to learn the issues.

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread Bill Crawford

2008/8/14 Lyvim Xaphir [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Let's see how many more you run off.

Don't let us stop you ..

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 19:23 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
 Video editting does not strictly require encumbered crap.  If we had
 the video editting application such as kino in the distro...we could
 edit raw dv from camcorders into quite usable compress theora videos.

 From time to time, I look into trying video editing on Linux, dabble
with some semi-functional software, and give up in disgust.  There seems
to be a fundamental misunderstanding in what's needed with video editing
(and some other video related things, like DVD-video backing up), in
that we need to create an end-product that's directly usable by someone
else.

If I create a video, I have to give someone on a DVD that they can play
in a standard player connected to their TV set.  Ogg theora output is
useless.

The input side of things is similarly warped.  I need to be able to
import DV, and work on the files in their own format.  Notwithstanding
the problems in trying to get video into a system on a virtually ignored
firewire port, converting digital video from one format to another is
not only wastefully time consuming, but damaging to video quality.

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote:
[...]

This is the same stuff/error that kills vlc from building when compiling
 from source.  It asked for ffmpeg, I got that and installed it, it then
 complains about ffmeg-devel and I get it and install it and it still
 complains about not having it.   I know I can get vlc from livna and I have
 done that, but I wanted to build it from source so I can easily update, but
 it does not work :(

Try to install it via yum.  Enable livna or freshrpms and install it from
 there.  I guess it might be the best way?

Someone said livna was up to kino-1.3.0, but all I can see is 1.2.0, and it 
insults our intelligence by needing that worthless POS pulseaudio.

Put me on a list so you can let me know when pulseaudio works.  Or if it now 
works in some private lab setting, how to make it work on an F8 x86 system.  
I nuked that with extreme prejudice when I installed F8, and haven't had a 
lick of trouble with my audio since.  AFAIC its just another aggravation 
foisted off on us to remind us this is a bleeding edge distro and that we 
should not ever expect it to just work.

Regards,

Antonio



-- 
Cheers, Gene
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Seen on a button at an SF Convention:
Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force.  1990-1951.

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread Alan Cox

 question of functionality.  The only thing breaching the functionality
 issue is a dumbass ideology that needs to be decided in court.

You appear very confused. Courts enforce the law and in some parts of the
world interpret it (sometimes using prior interpretation sometimes not
depending upon the court system)

*Polticians* create the law.

You need to direct your efforts into changing the law in problem
countries like the USA.

Alan

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread Les Mikesell


Jeff Spaleta wrote:


A lot of applications sit on top of ffmpeg and ffmpeg is structured that you
have to make compile time choices as to what sort of functionality it
exposes. 


Why is it problematic for an end user to make a compile time choice in 
an open source system that includes a compiler?   Philosophically, I 
mean - I know RPM packaging is not conducive to using the source.



Sucks.. but the ffmpeg developers made a framework chose that is incredibly
inflexible.


Isn't this really as much a fedora packaging choice that makes working 
with source inflexible?  But realistically, if you have to get the 
codecs from a third party you might as well get the whole thing there. 
There really isn't a lot of point in having a crippled version pre-built 
at all so omitting it from the distro is best for everyone.


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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread Craig White

On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 05:24 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
 On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote:
 [...]
 
 This is the same stuff/error that kills vlc from building when compiling
  from source.  It asked for ffmpeg, I got that and installed it, it then
  complains about ffmeg-devel and I get it and install it and it still
  complains about not having it.   I know I can get vlc from livna and I have
  done that, but I wanted to build it from source so I can easily update, but
  it does not work :(
 
 Try to install it via yum.  Enable livna or freshrpms and install it from
  there.  I guess it might be the best way?
 
 Someone said livna was up to kino-1.3.0, but all I can see is 1.2.0, and it 
 insults our intelligence by needing that worthless POS pulseaudio.
 
 Put me on a list so you can let me know when pulseaudio works.  Or if it now 
 works in some private lab setting, how to make it work on an F8 x86 system.  
 I nuked that with extreme prejudice when I installed F8, and haven't had a 
 lick of trouble with my audio since.  AFAIC its just another aggravation 
 foisted off on us to remind us this is a bleeding edge distro and that we 
 should not ever expect it to just work.

I think that you completely misunderstand the point of pulseaudio but
that is your prerogative but it's unfair for you to spread the FUD

I'm sure it will come as a shock to you to find that pulseaudio is also
included in Ubuntu.

enjoy

Craig

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thursday 14 August 2008, Craig White wrote:
On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 05:24 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
 On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote:
 [...]

 This is the same stuff/error that kills vlc from building when compiling
  from source.  It asked for ffmpeg, I got that and installed it, it then
  complains about ffmeg-devel and I get it and install it and it still
  complains about not having it.   I know I can get vlc from livna and I
  have done that, but I wanted to build it from source so I can easily
  update, but it does not work :(
 
 Try to install it via yum.  Enable livna or freshrpms and install it from
  there.  I guess it might be the best way?

 Someone said livna was up to kino-1.3.0, but all I can see is 1.2.0, and
 it insults our intelligence by needing that worthless POS pulseaudio.

 Put me on a list so you can let me know when pulseaudio works.  Or if it
 now works in some private lab setting, how to make it work on an F8 x86
 system. I nuked that with extreme prejudice when I installed F8, and
 haven't had a lick of trouble with my audio since.  AFAIC its just another
 aggravation foisted off on us to remind us this is a bleeding edge
 distro and that we should not ever expect it to just work.


I think that you completely misunderstand the point of pulseaudio but
that is your prerogative but it's unfair for you to spread the FUD

I'm sure it will come as a shock to you to find that pulseaudio is also
included in Ubuntu.

I'm aware of that, also aware that they did like we did, nuked it so they can 
have sound more complex than the pc's beeper.

When I last installed from the December respin, it still did not work, and 
that was what, the 2nd or 3rd respin?  Seems to me if it was going to work, 
it should have worked for 90% of the people by then.

Bare in mind I have two sound systems in this machine, I use the motherboards 
AC97 chipset for skype and friends, and an Audigy 2 (the good one) for 
everything else.  If pulseaudio cannot be respectful of the settings in 
my /etc/modprobe.conf that achieve that, then it is of no use to me.

From an lspci:
00:06.0 Multimedia audio controller: nVidia Corporation nForce2 AC97 Audio 
Controler (MCP) (rev a1)
01:07.0 Multimedia video controller: Conexant CX23880/1/2/3 PCI Video and 
Audio Decoder (rev 05)
01:07.2 Multimedia controller: Conexant CX23880/1/2/3 PCI Video and Audio 
Decoder [MPEG Port] (rev 05)
01:08.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB0400 Audigy2 Value

All of which I expect to work, and which do so now with as much pulseaudio 
removed as can be without nuking the whole system.

If however, it is now working for others, please share with me what it took to 
make it work, preferably for everyone.  Or better yet cuz the list will be 
quieter, point me to a how to URL.

Thanks Craig.

enjoy

Craig



-- 
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There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
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NO LES
NO MOORE
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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Lyvim Xaphir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Fantastic work, Jeff. Now we have yet another loyal fedora user jumping
ship to go to ubuntu, after being told:

Thanks, its always nice to hear when people praise the very hard work I do
to relate the truth to people, instead of just telling them what they want
to hear. You don't want to hear the truth, you are free to ignore me.

1. You need to put up with the crappy apps you already have

Actually i didn't say that. I pointed out exactly where the technical issues
are that can be address. I'm not going to lie to you or anyone. ffmpeg is a
problem.. it will continue to be a problem until it has support for runtime
detectable plugins. I can't wish the problem away, or yell it away or hold
my breath until its fixed..or threaten to move to another distro.. none of
that solves the actual technical problem. All I can do is find and encourage
developers make use of a more flexible framework.

2. You need to use your valuable time on this earth to code and not
actually use the computer -- to help us with our crappy forced-licensing
ideology which is never going to work anyway btw

Someone has to code this stuff, the code doesn't magically fall from the
code tree. Yes... you are absolutely right.. people's time is valuable..
developer time is the most precious of the resources that we have. We need
more of it. And I will heartily thank anyone who uses their time to help
develop a robust video editing application which uses gstreamer as its
audio/video framework so we could get reasonable support for raw dv video
and theora editting in the distro. Which reminds me I should go on to the
pitivi development lists and do some massive amounts of ego stroking to
encourage them to do more work.

It's patently absurd when the infrastructure of Red Hat
itself is in fact RUNNING THE USERS OFF!

It's not that we aren't sympathetic. I very much doubt that anyone likes the
software patent situation. Legal issues suck, but I'm not going to lie to
you about it. We will avoid some patent encumbered code based on Red Hat's
legal council because we are not interested in creating a situation where we
increase the legal risks for anyone. The legal risk of people like
downstream developers who base their work on Fedora. God forbid we
accidently cause a legal problem for an embedded developer showing off some
sort of mp3 capable device in Germany such that they are handed cease and
desist orders at the conference they are attending.
For reference:
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=8723
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Police-Raids-51-CeBIT-Booths-For-Patent-Violations-80362.shtml

It's not just the home user that we care about nor just Red Hat's legal
risks as a sponsor. We care about the legal risks to our global Fedora
community, including the ones who might be doing development in Germany or
elsewhere where software patents lurk. Or currently we have a small
situation with trademarks on OpenOffice.org that is Brazil specific that we
need to work through so our Ambassadors and users there avoid a problem.

Now as a user you can either live with that or you can't. If you can, and
are interested in video production, make a pledge to work with me to find a
way to bring a robust gstreamer based video application forward for everyone
to make use of.

If you can't, then yes you are going to be happier using a distribution
other distros take a much more cavilier approach these issues. We are not
going to be cavilier with regard to legal risks. We take them seriously.

Let's see how many more you run off.

Let me be clear. I do not need...nor do I desire for every single person to
be running Fedora. Users are not pogs... they are not pokemon...we do not in
fact have to catch them all. Does it help me or Fedora to lie to Gene and
attempt to keep him as a user? All I can do is be honest about what the
technical issues are..ffmpeg...and what the potential solutions
are..gstreamer. If he still chooses to distro shop instead of working on
solving the problem, I'm not going to run after him with pretty, empty
promises that someone else is going to do the work for him. Someone has to
do the work, or it's not going to get done. The pitivi developers would
probably welcome some more manhours.

The success of Fedora is not

Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread Craig White

On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 12:03 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
 On Thursday 14 August 2008, Craig White wrote:
 On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 05:24 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
  On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote:
  [...]
 
  This is the same stuff/error that kills vlc from building when compiling
   from source.  It asked for ffmpeg, I got that and installed it, it then
   complains about ffmeg-devel and I get it and install it and it still
   complains about not having it.   I know I can get vlc from livna and I
   have done that, but I wanted to build it from source so I can easily
   update, but it does not work :(
  
  Try to install it via yum.  Enable livna or freshrpms and install it from
   there.  I guess it might be the best way?
 
  Someone said livna was up to kino-1.3.0, but all I can see is 1.2.0, and
  it insults our intelligence by needing that worthless POS pulseaudio.
 
  Put me on a list so you can let me know when pulseaudio works.  Or if it
  now works in some private lab setting, how to make it work on an F8 x86
  system. I nuked that with extreme prejudice when I installed F8, and
  haven't had a lick of trouble with my audio since.  AFAIC its just another
  aggravation foisted off on us to remind us this is a bleeding edge
  distro and that we should not ever expect it to just work.
 
 
 I think that you completely misunderstand the point of pulseaudio but
 that is your prerogative but it's unfair for you to spread the FUD
 
 I'm sure it will come as a shock to you to find that pulseaudio is also
 included in Ubuntu.
 
 I'm aware of that, also aware that they did like we did, nuked it so they can 
 have sound more complex than the pc's beeper.
 
 When I last installed from the December respin, it still did not work, and 
 that was what, the 2nd or 3rd respin?  Seems to me if it was going to work, 
 it should have worked for 90% of the people by then.
 
 Bare in mind I have two sound systems in this machine, I use the motherboards 
 AC97 chipset for skype and friends, and an Audigy 2 (the good one) for 
 everything else.  If pulseaudio cannot be respectful of the settings in 
 my /etc/modprobe.conf that achieve that, then it is of no use to me.
 
 From an lspci:
 00:06.0 Multimedia audio controller: nVidia Corporation nForce2 AC97 Audio 
 Controler (MCP) (rev a1)
 01:07.0 Multimedia video controller: Conexant CX23880/1/2/3 PCI Video and 
 Audio Decoder (rev 05)
 01:07.2 Multimedia controller: Conexant CX23880/1/2/3 PCI Video and Audio 
 Decoder [MPEG Port] (rev 05)
 01:08.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB0400 Audigy2 Value
 
 All of which I expect to work, and which do so now with as much pulseaudio 
 removed as can be without nuking the whole system.
 
 If however, it is now working for others, please share with me what it took 
 to 
 make it work, preferably for everyone.  Or better yet cuz the list will be 
 quieter, point me to a how to URL.

pulseaudio is userland and since you run GUI as root, it's meaningless
to you anyway...that's what I meant by stating that you don't understand
it's use/purpose. Of course it's only going to get in your way as does
all other userland conveniences since you always have the power of
superuser and have access to all devices.

Since you use GUI as root and have little reason to adapt to userland
conveniences, your utterance of disdain for pulseaudio can only be FUD

Craig

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread Craig White

On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 12:53 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
 On Thursday 14 August 2008, Craig White wrote:
 On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 12:03 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
  On Thursday 14 August 2008, Craig White wrote:
  On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 05:24 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
   On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote:
   [...]
  
   This is the same stuff/error that kills vlc from building when
compiling from source.  It asked for ffmpeg, I got that and installed
it, it then complains about ffmeg-devel and I get it and install it
and it still complains about not having it.   I know I can get vlc
from livna and I have done that, but I wanted to build it from source
so I can easily update, but it does not work :(
   
   Try to install it via yum.  Enable livna or freshrpms and install it
from there.  I guess it might be the best way?
  
   Someone said livna was up to kino-1.3.0, but all I can see is 1.2.0,
   and it insults our intelligence by needing that worthless POS
   pulseaudio.
  
   Put me on a list so you can let me know when pulseaudio works.  Or if
   it now works in some private lab setting, how to make it work on an F8
   x86 system. I nuked that with extreme prejudice when I installed F8,
   and haven't had a lick of trouble with my audio since.  AFAIC its just
   another aggravation foisted off on us to remind us this is a bleeding
   edge distro and that we should not ever expect it to just work.
  
  
  I think that you completely misunderstand the point of pulseaudio but
  that is your prerogative but it's unfair for you to spread the FUD
  
  I'm sure it will come as a shock to you to find that pulseaudio is also
  included in Ubuntu.
 
  I'm aware of that, also aware that they did like we did, nuked it so they
  can have sound more complex than the pc's beeper.
 
  When I last installed from the December respin, it still did not work, and
  that was what, the 2nd or 3rd respin?  Seems to me if it was going to
  work, it should have worked for 90% of the people by then.
 
  Bare in mind I have two sound systems in this machine, I use the
  motherboards AC97 chipset for skype and friends, and an Audigy 2 (the good
  one) for everything else.  If pulseaudio cannot be respectful of the
  settings in my /etc/modprobe.conf that achieve that, then it is of no use
  to me.
 
  From an lspci:
 
  00:06.0 Multimedia audio controller: nVidia Corporation nForce2 AC97 Audio
  Controler (MCP) (rev a1)
  01:07.0 Multimedia video controller: Conexant CX23880/1/2/3 PCI Video and
  Audio Decoder (rev 05)
  01:07.2 Multimedia controller: Conexant CX23880/1/2/3 PCI Video and Audio
  Decoder [MPEG Port] (rev 05)
  01:08.0 Multimedia audio controller: Creative Labs SB0400 Audigy2 Value
 
  All of which I expect to work, and which do so now with as much pulseaudio
  removed as can be without nuking the whole system.
 
  If however, it is now working for others, please share with me what it
  took to make it work, preferably for everyone.  Or better yet cuz the list
  will be quieter, point me to a how to URL.
 
 
 pulseaudio is userland and since you run GUI as root, it's meaningless
 to you anyway...that's what I meant by stating that you don't understand
 it's use/purpose.
 
 So far Craig, no one has has offered a clear, lucid explanation of how it (is 
 supposed to) works.  It's just like alsa, a big secret, and devoid even of a 
 means to re-init it other than rebooting.  Where is the 'service alsa 
 restart'?  This is NOT the foss way.

sysV services were never intended to launch processes that only run in
user space.

I suppose you could do a 'man pulseaudio' or just blindly figure out
that a SIGHUP will restart a process (even alsa).

www.pulseaudio.org

Craig

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

 
 pulseaudio is userland and since you run GUI as root,
 it's meaningless
 to you anyway...that's what I meant by stating that
 you don't understand
 it's use/purpose.
I beg to differ.  What does running as root have to do with pulseaudio?
It should work, it works for many but not for Gene and others :(
 
 So far Craig, no one has has offered a clear, lucid
 explanation of how it (is 
 supposed to) works.  It's just like alsa, a big secret,
 and devoid even of a 
 means to re-init it other than rebooting.  Where is the
 'service alsa 
 restart'?  This is NOT the foss way.

There is always this page:
http://www.pulseaudio.org/

And this page which might/might not help ?
http://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/PerfectSetup

I cannot complain because I have sound :), it works for me, but for others it 
does not and they need working solutions.  

I see some alsa related stuff from dmesg, but I have sound.  I wonder whey I 
get these, but they are there

ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_intel.c:1318: azx_pcm_prepare: bufsize=0x4400, 
format=0x4011
ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:716: hda_codec_setup_stream: NID=0x6, 
stream=0x5, channel=0, format=0x4011
ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:716: hda_codec_setup_stream: NID=0x2, 
stream=0x5, channel=0, format=0x4011
ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:716: hda_codec_setup_stream: NID=0x3, 
stream=0x5, channel=0, format=0x4011
ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:716: hda_codec_setup_stream: NID=0x4, 
stream=0x5, channel=0, format=0x4011
ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:716: hda_codec_setup_stream: NID=0x5, 
stream=0x5, channel=0, format=0x4011
ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x2
ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x3
ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x4
ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x5
ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x6
ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x2
ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x3
ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x4
ALSA sound/pci/hda/hda_codec.c:728: hda_codec_cleanup_stream: NID=0x5

 
 Of course it's only going to get in your way as
 does 
 all other userland conveniences since you always have
 the power of
 superuser and have access to all devices.
Selinux stops some of these, as it was meant to protect users including the 
superuser from doing much more than was intended.  
 
 I've been denied access to something by selinux several
 times.  Probably 
 unrelated, but its happened.
 
 Since you use GUI as root and have little reason to
 adapt to userland
 conveniences, your utterance of disdain for pulseaudio
 can only be FUD
It should even work better as superuser, he shall not see permission errors, if 
he does, then there are obviously problems here!  
 
 But no link to a howto, how very obvious...
 
 Craig
 
 -- 
 Cheers, Gene
 There are four boxes to be used in defense of
 liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that
 order.
 -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
 sticky bit has come loose
 
 -- 

Regards,

Antonio 


  

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

  If I create a video, I have to give someone on a DVD
 that they can play
  in a standard player connected to their TV set.  Ogg
 theora output is
  useless.
 
 
 There is no perfect solution. Yes, the de-facto audio/video
 standards are
 patented encumbered.   Fedora ships the dvdauthor tool...
 ive never
 attempted to use it.. i should.
Can a good solution be to use the free stuff built for the EvilEmpire's OS and 
run them through wine?

There are a few applications that work fine through wine and were designed for 
windows users in mind.  There are ffmpeg, dvdauthor and the same free 
stuff(that is patent encumbered) made available for windows users that like to 
use them.  Why not use those through wine?

Some users have reported success with those.  Why not try them out?
 
 The fight for open standards never ends. I would give my
 i-teeth to see 1%
 of the heat caused by OOXML's iso process be moved over
 and aimed at
 encumbered video data format standards.
 
 The fact that firefox is going to get native support for
 theora via the new
 video tag is good news however.
 http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/?p=492.
 
 Open data formats are important. The establishment and use
 of open data
 formats for governments and municipality use are probably
 the most important
 issue facing modern digital societies.
Yes they are, but not making it easier to users to add support for the other 
stuff is also important.   
 
 
  The input side of things is similarly warped.  I need
 to be able to
  import DV, and work on the files in their own format. 
 Notwithstanding
  the problems in trying to get video into a system on a
 virtually ignored
  firewire port, converting digital video from one
 format to another is
  not only wastefully time consuming, but damaging to
 video quality.
Here we have to make use of the EvilEmpireOS if we need to make things just 
work, unless of course via wine we can get those apps to work.  
 
 
 hmm... dvgrab as shipped in F9 saw my camera on my firewire
 port just fine.
 And i can do simple clip manipulation of the dv footage
 pulled with dvgrab
 in pitivi then render it to whatever compressed formats
 gstreamer supports
 on the system...by default that would be theora.  Pitivi
 needs love, but
 I've had it work for me for simple needs. Honestly its
 the only application
 in the space that I think has the ability to be further
 developed..it just
 needs more attention.
There are many good things and apps already working, but for a better user 
experience many things can be better.  
 
 -jef
 -- 

Regards,

Antonio


  

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)


Antonio Olivares wrote:


Telling us to move to another distro is not the correct answer.  Also to get it 
from livna or freshrpms might be an option, but is it the best alternative?


Ideally, we would see software patents going away but meanwhile we would 
want to see good support for non patent encumbered codecs and supporting 
them out of the box by using multimedia frameworks like gstreamer is the 
best alternative we have and that is what Fedora does. Third party repos 
makes it very easy to drop in the additional codecs as plugins.


As Jef noted, Firefox 3.1 will include native support for ogg (theora 
for video and vorbis for audio) which is also a pretty good move. If you 
disagree and want proprietary or patent encumbered codec support by 
default, Fedora probably isn't the right choice for you.


Rahul

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

Thanks, its always nice to hear when people praise the very
hard work I do
to relate the truth to people, instead of just telling them
what they want
to hear. You don't want to hear the truth, you are free
to ignore me.

I will not ignore you, although most of the reasons are the same and they won't
change :(

1. You need to put up with the crappy apps you
already have

Actually i didn't say that. I pointed out exactly where
the technical issues
are that can be address. I'm not going to lie to you or
anyone. ffmpeg is a
problem.. it will continue to be a problem until it has
support for runtime
detectable plugins. I can't wish the problem away, or
yell it away or hold
my breath until its fixed..or threaten to move to another
distro.. none of
that solves the actual technical problem. All I can do is
find and encourage
developers make use of a more flexible framework.

2. You need to use your valuable time on this earth
to code and not
actually use the computer -- to help us with our
crappy forced-licensing
ideology which is never going to work anyway btw

Someone has to code this stuff, the code doesn't
magically fall from the
code tree. Yes... you are absolutely right.. people's
time is valuable..
developer time is the most precious of the resources that
we have. We need
more of it. And I will heartily thank anyone who uses
their time to help
develop a robust video editing application which uses
gstreamer as its
audio/video framework so we could get reasonable support
for raw dv video
and theora editting in the distro. Which reminds me I
should go on to the
pitivi development lists and do some massive amounts of ego
stroking to
encourage them to do more work.

This is where I think you can say okay, we will alleviate this problem by not
including these applications or making a Fedora spin ***without the free stuff
that is useless for many users***, and that way you the end users can do what
you want, but we will not be responsible if you get sued or end up in jail
because of violating so-so patent(s).

It's patently absurd when the infrastructure of
Red Hat
itself is in fact RUNNING THE USERS OFF!

It's not that we aren't sympathetic. I very much
doubt that anyone likes the
software patent situation. Legal issues suck, but I'm
not going to lie to
you about it. We will avoid some patent encumbered code
based on Red Hat's
legal council because we are not interested in creating a
situation where we
increase the legal risks for anyone. The legal risk of
people like
downstream developers who base their work on Fedora. God
forbid we
accidently cause a legal problem for an embedded developer
showing off some
sort of mp3 capable device in Germany such that they are
handed cease and
desist orders at the conference they are attending.

For reference:
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?NewsID=8723
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Police-Raids-51-CeBIT-Booths-For-Patent-Violations-80362.shtml

This is good to know thanks for pointing it out. Since I do not live in
Germany or Great Britian(UK) I can see the threats, but I hope *crosses
fingers* that we can avoid such threats here in the US.

3 years running now, CeBit has seen German police raids
over mp3 patent
infringement. It would be really nice to ignore this, and
make some
simple-minded claims that the problem is strictly a problem
in the US and to
beat Red Hat up about it...but I can't, Fedora as a
project can't, because
we have a larger international base and a growing number of
downstream
distributions which make use of our tech. If we
accidentally created a legal
problem for someone over a/v patents, I would feel far
worse than I do about
hearing that I've lost users because we are in their
opinion overly cautious
about breaking the law.
To not break the law, you can avoid a great deal of work without providing the
stuff that is truly free so that users have the power to get what they want and
build from source or build a different Fedora spin to meet the needs of those
users that do not want crippled versions of stuff that works with somethings,
but not all things that users want/need to play.

It's not just the home user that we care about nor just
Red Hat's legal
risks as a sponsor. We care about the legal risks to our
global Fedora
community, including the ones who might be doing
development in Germany or
elsewhere where software patents lurk. Or currently we have
a small
situation with trademarks on OpenOffice.org that is Brazil
specific that we
need to work through so our Ambassadors and users there
avoid a problem.
Alexandre should help here. He's with the FSFA in Latin America. He can flex
his muscle(s) over there and give us a report.

Now as a user you can either live with that or you
can't. If you can, and
are interested in video production, make a pledge to work
with me to find a
way to bring

Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:10 AM, Antonio Olivares
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:


 For multimedia purposes, the only player that I can get working from source
 is mplayer.  If I try xine, there will be conflicts with the fedora version.
  Vlc fails to build becuase of ffmpeg/ffmpeg-devel stuff.  If one tries to
 build dvdauthor, k9copy, vamps, ..., others are a pain in the a** to build
 because several things get in the way.


What exactly do you want... you want us to provide the sources for ffmpeg
for you? We can't...sorry. We can't even provide you the sources.  That's
how crappy the legal situation is. We can't even point you to the sources.

Honestly I don't know what you are trying to ask for. We provide the
development tools... we provide a completely self-contained build
environment apparatus via mock that lets you build your own rpms in a
repeatable way. Our package maintainers uses these very same tools on a
daily basis to do the work that they do. I would be shocked if a good number
of livna maintainers did not make use of these tools as well, though I do
not have first hand knowledge of that fact.

I can very easily build whatever I want. I have my own versions of things
that I play with.. I make spec files.. i build rpms..and then using yum
plugins such as yum-priorities to make sure my locally built repository of
packages do not get overridden by fedora updates.
In fact I did just that to build my cutdown version of ffmpeg that does not
include the encumbered bits as I understand them. I pull the srpm from
livna.. i stripped out the code that I think is encumbered...I made a new
source tarball from that cutdown code...I use that as a new source in a new
srpm..still called ffmpeg, and I built it under mock against the Fedora 9
target to make sure it built cleanly without 3rd party deps. I then put the
result into a local repository on my lan, so that it was accessible to all
my machines.  I think used that local repository as a source for a local
rebuild of kino and gstreamer-ffmpeg under mock.

The result is that I have a local binary rpm of a crippled kino,
gstreamer-ffmpeg and a crippled ffmpeg so that I can get access to the
ffmpeg functionality that is not tied to encumbered codecs. I use yum
priorities plugin to make my local repo a higher priority than other repo
definitions so I never have to worry about an update dragging in kino or
ffmpeg or gst-ffmpeg ever again on my systems.

great fun.  How exactly did you want it to be easier than that?


 Telling us to move to another distro is not the correct answer.  Also to
 get it from livna or freshrpms might be an option, but is it the best
 alternative?

I did not tell anyone to move. Gene made a choice. What I am telling people
is that there is work to be done to build a video-editor that can be
included. If the work does not get done, the situation with regard to
video-editting in Fedora will not get better.  Someone who cares about this
needs to step up and work on a gstreamer based solution. Contiuing to
reiterate the complaints isn't doing anything constructive.  We get it, the
legal issues suck. We know, Message received.  Each and every person who
reads what I am writing has a choice to make. I do not assume to know what
the right choice is for every person. But I do think I know what the right
choice is for Fedora and the long term sustainability of an open technology
platform for video editting. And chief among them is a gst based video
editting solution which makes use of plugins for encumbered functionality.
Users who believe they can strong arm others into taking on ill-advised
legal risks associated with software patents..is not among the things I
think we need.



 Thanks jeff for trying to help us out, but it does not do much good despite
 all the hard efforts that are put forth.


Shrug. If I thought this was not important. I would not bother with it. I do
not need to be told that its a difficult problem.

-jefI am not afriad of failure, and thus I free myself to succeedspaleta
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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

  Telling us to move to another distro is not the
 correct answer.  Also to get it from livna or freshrpms
 might be an option, but is it the best alternative?
 
 Ideally, we would see software patents going away but
 meanwhile we would 
 want to see good support for non patent encumbered codecs
 and supporting 
 them out of the box by using multimedia frameworks like
 gstreamer is the 
 best alternative we have and that is what Fedora does.
 Third party repos 
 makes it very easy to drop in the additional codecs as
 plugins.
Here like I have mentioned in the same thread.  A Fedora spin without (all the 
free stuff(non patent encumbered ) that is provided by default) would make 
sense and would free Fedora/Red Hat from litigation and would make it easier to 
include the stuff that will make media players play everything under the sun 
and will not get in the way when buiding these apps.  

For instance the totem that comes with Fedora, tries very hard to play dvd's, 
but it can't because of the legal issues.  Why not make a spin that does not 
have Totem, gstreamer and all the free stuff so that users can have the power 
to build these apps non-crippled?  
 
 As Jef noted, Firefox 3.1 will include native support for
 ogg (theora 
 for video and vorbis for audio) which is also a pretty good
 move. If you 
 disagree and want proprietary or patent encumbered codec
 support by 
 default, Fedora probably isn't the right choice for
 you.
IT is a good thing, but it will not support everything out there under the sun 
:(

That is why users are asking for, is it reasonable for end users to ask that 
Fedora *not include all the free stuff* so that they can add the stuff that 
they want and play everything that they want and of course, Fedora/Red Hat will 
have no responsibility whatsoever if an end user gets sued, Fedora/Redhat will 
be immune and should not/cannot be taken to court.  
 
 Rahul

It is not a bad thing Rahul. I have mplayer and gecko-media player built from 
source and I am doing fine.  I am not complaining.  It would make sense to not 
have to ship crippled players *unless the users want those only**

Regards,

Antonio 


  

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Antonio Olivares
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 To not break the law, you can avoid a great deal of work without providing
 the stuff that is truly free so that users have the power to get what they
 want and build from source or build a different Fedora spin to meet the
 needs of those users that do not want crippled versions of stuff that works
 with somethings, but not all things that users want/need to play.


Hey if you want to build  spin that contains none of the multimedia
applications that you seem to have problems with, you are welcome to attempt
it. We have the tools for people to create their own 'spin' concepts.  I
challenge you to do it, generate a spin concept for a desktop which does not
include the things you have problems with to be used as a base so you can
build the applications as you want them.

 -jef
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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread Les Mikesell


Craig White wrote:



sysV services were never intended to launch processes that only run in
user space.


And sound services don't really have much to do with a user login or GUI.


I suppose you could do a 'man pulseaudio' or just blindly figure out
that a SIGHUP will restart a process (even alsa).


Does that tell you how to reconfigure fedora to run a sound server that 
isn't tied to a user?  I think pulseaudio is capable of this, but 'man 
pulseaudio' probably doesn't tell you how to undo the stock fedora setup.


--
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   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Antonio Olivares
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 It is not a bad thing Rahul. I have mplayer and gecko-media player built
 from source and I am doing fine.  I am not complaining.  It would make sense
 to not have to ship crippled players *unless the users want those only**


Uhm since totem actually uses gst... you get the write gst plugin
installed..and you can use totem as shipped with Fedora to play dvds...no
rebuilding of totem needed. I think you under-estimate how flexible gst
actual is in this regard and as a result your undercut the argument you are
trying to make.

-jef
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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

  For multimedia purposes, the only player that I can
 get working from source
  is mplayer.  If I try xine, there will be conflicts
 with the fedora version.
   Vlc fails to build becuase of ffmpeg/ffmpeg-devel
 stuff.  If one tries to
  build dvdauthor, k9copy, vamps, ..., others are a pain
 in the a** to build
  because several things get in the way.
 
 
 What exactly do you want... you want us to provide the
 sources for ffmpeg
 for you? We can't...sorry. We can't even provide
 you the sources.  That's
 how crappy the legal situation is. We can't even point
 you to the sources.
I want a Fedora spin that does not have any of this or makes the crippled stuff 
dependent on it.  I can get ffmpeg and build it from source, I appreciate 
Fedora has developement tools, and libraries to build it from the ground up.  
What I would like is a Fedora system without the crippled stuff(No multimedia 
stuff, ie, totem, gstreamer, rhythmbox) all the stuff that is included.  

I can install my own.  What I want at my own risk of course.  This is all.  
This way I can build a good xine that can play dvd's and do stuff that the 
regular xine+totem can't do, ***although it tries very hard, but cant :( ***
 
 Honestly I don't know what you are trying to ask for.
 We provide the
 development tools... we provide a completely self-contained
 build
 environment apparatus via mock that lets you build your own
 rpms in a
 repeatable way. Our package maintainers uses these very
 same tools on a
 daily basis to do the work that they do. I would be shocked
 if a good number
 of livna maintainers did not make use of these tools as
 well, though I do
 not have first hand knowledge of that fact.
I wonder how these guys get to build vlc and make it work.  Their work is 
admirable.  Try to build vlc from source and see all the problems that you 
encounter.  It is a pain in the a**  
 
 I can very easily build whatever I want. I have my own
 versions of things
 that I play with.. I make spec files.. i build rpms..and
 then using yum
 plugins such as yum-priorities to make sure my locally
 built repository of
 packages do not get overridden by fedora updates.
 In fact I did just that to build my cutdown version of
 ffmpeg that does not
 include the encumbered bits as I understand them. I pull
 the srpm from
 livna.. i stripped out the code that I think is
 encumbered...I made a new
 source tarball from that cutdown code...I use that as a new
 source in a new
 srpm..still called ffmpeg, and I built it under mock
 against the Fedora 9
 target to make sure it built cleanly without 3rd party
 deps. I then put the
 result into a local repository on my lan, so that it was
 accessible to all
 my machines.  I think used that local repository as a
 source for a local
 rebuild of kino and gstreamer-ffmpeg under mock.
This is awesome for you of course.  I do not know how to build rpms and deal 
with this, I have read tutorials but I get no where because errors arise and 
deps come into the picture it is not very nice :(
 
 The result is that I have a local binary rpm of a crippled
 kino,
 gstreamer-ffmpeg and a crippled ffmpeg so that I can get
 access to the
 ffmpeg functionality that is not tied to encumbered codecs.
 I use yum
 priorities plugin to make my local repo a higher priority
 than other repo
 definitions so I never have to worry about an update
 dragging in kino or
 ffmpeg or gst-ffmpeg ever again on my systems.
 
 great fun.  How exactly did you want it to be easier than
 that?
For you it is, but for me I just want to build from source.  But it is very 
difficult.  Of all the multimedia players out there only mplayer is the one 
that I can successfully build.  
 
 
  Telling us to move to another distro is not the
 correct answer.  Also to
  get it from livna or freshrpms might be an option, but
 is it the best
  alternative?
 
 I did not tell anyone to move. Gene made a choice. What I
 am telling people
 is that there is work to be done to build a video-editor
 that can be
 included. If the work does not get done, the situation with
 regard to
 video-editting in Fedora will not get better.  Someone who
 cares about this
 needs to step up and work on a gstreamer based solution.
 Contiuing to
 reiterate the complaints isn't doing anything
 constructive.  We get it, the
 legal issues suck. We know, Message received.  Each and
 every person who
 reads what I am writing has a choice to make. I do not
 assume to know what
 the right choice is for every person. But I do think I know
 what the right
 choice is for Fedora and the long term sustainability of an
 open technology
 platform for video editting. And chief among them is a gst
 based video
 editting solution which makes use of plugins for encumbered
 functionality.
 Users who believe they can strong arm others into taking on
 ill-advised
 legal risks associated with software patents..is not among
 the things I
 think we need.
No we don't need for Fedora to do it, we can do it

Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

Antonio Olivares wrote:

Here like I have mentioned in the same thread. A Fedora spin without (all the
free stuff(non patent encumbered ) that is provided by default)
would make sense and would free Fedora/Red Hat from litigation and would
make it easier to include the stuff that will make media players play
everything under the sun and will not get in the way when buiding these
apps.

It won't make sense for Fedora to not include support for the non-patent
encumbered codecs since one of the primary objectives of Fedora is to
enable and support free and open source software. Besides multimedia
frameworks like gstreamer is a dependency of many many apps and
excluding them all is not feasible. Normally users who want additional
components would just grab those from a third party repo. If you are
compiling from source, that's a smaller nice of users and you are very
well equipped to remove whatever you don't want. Again, if you disagree
and think your goal will help end users, feel free to build a Fedora
spin exactly the way you want. The tools that we used to build Fedora
are all available as part of Fedora.

It is not a bad thing Rahul. I have mplayer and gecko-media player built from source and I am doing fine. I am not complaining.
It would make sense to not have to ship crippled players *unless the
users want those only**

Gstreamer has a plugin model and we don't include some of the plugins.
This process doesn't require actively crippling anything.

Rahul

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

  It is not a bad thing Rahul. I have mplayer and
 gecko-media player built
  from source and I am doing fine.  I am not
 complaining.  It would make sense
  to not have to ship crippled players *unless the users
 want those only**
 
 
 Uhm since totem actually uses gst... you get the write gst
 plugin
 installed..and you can use totem as shipped with Fedora to
 play dvds...no
 rebuilding of totem needed. I think you under-estimate how
 flexible gst
 actual is in this regard and as a result your undercut the
 argument you are
 trying to make.
 
 -jef

Tell me how/Show me how to do that.  When I try to build xine-lib or lib-xine 
it fails to compile and I just give up.  I would like to have xine, mplayer and 
vlc all working, but only mplayer does the job so far and I also have the 
gecko- plugin for gnome-mplayer that Kevin Dekorte works on.  And I am very 
happy to use them.  

I would not mind if you told me how to build the gst* stuff to make totem play 
DVDs.  In fact I would appreciate it.  This way I won't have to mess around 
with xine-lib and xine-ui.  

Regards,

Antonio 


  

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

  Here like I have mentioned in the same thread.  A
 Fedora spin without (all the free stuff(non patent
 encumbered ) that is provided by default)
 would make sense and would free Fedora/Red Hat from
 litigation and would 
 make it easier to include the stuff that will make media
 players play
 everything under the sun and will not get in the way when
 buiding these 
 apps.
 
 It won't make sense for Fedora to not include support
 for the non-patent 
 encumbered codecs since one of the primary objectives of
 Fedora is to 
 enable and support free and open source software. Besides
 multimedia 
 frameworks like gstreamer is a dependency of many many apps
 and 
 excluding them all is not feasible. Normally users who want
 additional 
 components would just grab those from a third party repo.
 If you are 
 compiling from source, that's a smaller nice of users
 and you are very 
 well equipped to remove whatever you don't want. Again,
 if you disagree 
 and think your goal will help end users, feel free to build
 a Fedora 
 spin exactly the way you want. The tools that we used to
 build Fedora 
 are all available as part of Fedora.
  
  It is not a bad thing Rahul. I have mplayer and
 gecko-media player built from source and I am doing fine.  I
 am not complaining.  
 It would make sense to not have to ship crippled players
 *unless the 
 users want those only**
 
 Gstreamer has a plugin model and we don't include some
 of the plugins. 
 This process doesn't require actively crippling
 anything.
Jeff has mentioned the plugin system if it can be built from source, I will 
take a look into it.  Otherwise, I guess using livna or freshrpms is the answer 
besides working with mock and learning more about the process.  I will see what 
I can do.

Thanks,

Antonio 
 
 Rahul


  

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)


Antonio Olivares wrote:

Jeff has mentioned the plugin system if it can be built from source, I will take a look into it. Otherwise, I guess using livna or freshrpms is the answer besides 
working with mock and learning more about the process.  I will see what 
I can do.


Many of the multimedia packages have complex interdependencies and 
configuration options. It is not easy to get it all right while building 
from source and that really isn't necessary. Is there any particular 
reason you are not using pre-built binaries?


Rahul

PS: You should set your mail client to do line wraps properly.

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 10:57 -0700, Antonio Olivares wrote:
 Can a good solution be to use the free stuff built for the
 EvilEmpire's OS and run them through wine?
 
 There are a few applications that work fine through wine and were
 designed for windows users in mind.  There are ffmpeg, dvdauthor and
 the same free stuff(that is patent encumbered) made available for
 windows users that like to use them.  Why not use those through wine?

I don't see what is gained by this in a *legal* sense. Anything that
requires a proprietary codec requires a non-free license, whether it
works via Wine or not. AFAIK Fedora could still not include it, for
precisely the same reasons.

And if you can use non-free codecs from Livna or whatever, as many of us
undoubtedly do, then Wine is irrelevant as regards the legal position.

poc

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

  Can a good solution be to use the free stuff built for
 the
  EvilEmpire's OS and run them through wine?
  
  There are a few applications that work fine through
 wine and were
  designed for windows users in mind.  There are ffmpeg,
 dvdauthor and
  the same free stuff(that is patent encumbered) made
 available for
  windows users that like to use them.  Why not use
 those through wine?
 
 I don't see what is gained by this in a *legal* sense.
 Anything that
 requires a proprietary codec requires a non-free license,
 whether it
 works via Wine or not. AFAIK Fedora could still not include
 it, for
 precisely the same reasons.
Well in Windows you can run lots of proprietary stuff via crack(s)(ed) 
software.  To many people they are equivalent to free software because 
1) they did not pay for it
2) they are using it for free and it works
3) it will work for what they want and that is all that matters for them

You can also run free programs(endorsed by FSF) on Windows without any 
problems, and using those same programs here on the Linux side *might be bad* 
because of patents.  Some are some are not.  It is very hard to determine why 
and where do you draw the line between what is free and patent proof and free 
but with a few gotchas.  

Of course I am not asking that Fedora to include it.  I am not stupid and do 
not want to hurt Fedora in any way shape or form.  I am stating that those 
programs that help in editing video and producing stuff that is *very hard* to 
make it work in Fedora, to try it out with some free software/or proprietary 
software for the EvilEmpireOS via wine and see if it works or not? 
 
 And if you can use non-free codecs from Livna or whatever,
 as many of us
 undoubtedly do, then Wine is irrelevant as regards the
 legal position.
That will not change the position.  You are right :)
 
 poc
 
 -- 

Regards,


Antonio 


  

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread Mikkel L. Ellertson

Gene Heskett wrote:
 
 Running paman from a shell gets a connection refused, and I don't see anything
 in /etc/rc.d/init.d to start a server which could then refuse the connection.
 
 And of course my system is now silent.  Consulting First Steps, I tried
  pulseaudio -nC and got sort of a prompt, which when I enter help, spits
 out a long list of options.  As I'm sitting there contemplating the next step,
 my kde related sound effects to indicate the type of incoming mail are now
 working again.
 
 I've done a killall on it and restarted with some of the other options, but
 they all exit for various permissions problems.  And I think my audio is
 still working but I have not tested all paths.
 
 A ps -ea shows its running, and an lsof|grep pulse returns a lengthy list.
 But nothing has made it to dmesg or messages.
 
 padevchooser is there, but gives no output anyplace.  A ^C kills it back to
 the shell prompt.
 
 pavucontrol runs, puts up a connection refused box and exits when the box is
 closed.
 
 pavumeter (--record) only show the refused box.
 
 Next?
 
Dumb question - do you have X running? If so, is root logged into
the GUI? I believe these 3 programs are all GUI programs, and even
root will get a connection refused message if another user is logged in.

Mikkel
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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread g

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Jeff Spaleta wrote:
 {{ 21,012 - 9,967 }}
 
 On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Lyvim Xaphir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Fantastic work, Jeff.  Now we have yet another loyal fedora user jumping
 ship to go to ubuntu, after being told:
 
 Thanks, its always nice to hear when people praise the very hard work I do
 to relate the truth to people, instead of just telling them what they want
 to hear. You don't want to hear the truth, you are free to ignore me.

and here after, that is what it will be for me. at least as long as you
continue to send *html* in your email.

please note numbers above, below your name. that shows you wasted 11,045
bytes of storage on my system and every one else that received it. that is,
unless they have a mail parser set up remove 'html'.

this is not first email that you have sent, nor is it last from what i have
noted by my 'html' email box. 3 messages, 27,778 bytes. but it is last that
i will read, as i have now added another filter and this one is just for you;

   from = [EMAIL PROTECTED] and Content-Type: text/html
   action = move to trash

your missive's have been of how much you have done for good and support,
and i have enjoyed reading, some of them have been a good laugh. but that
is now to an end. that is until you change your configurations on 'gmail'.



- --
tc,hago.

g
.


in a free world without fences, who needs gates.


learn linux:
'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition'   http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz
'The Linux Documentation Project'   http://www.tldp.org/

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 1:51 PM, g [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 and here after, that is what it will be for me. at least as long as you
 continue to send *html* in your email.

Crap how long have i been sending html out without knowing it. Apologizes.

This one should definitely be text. If its not..someone punch me.

-jef

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread g

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Jeff Spaleta wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 1:51 PM, g [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 and here after, that is what it will be for me. at least as long as you
 continue to send *html* in your email.
 
 Crap how long have i been sending html out without knowing it. Apologizes.
 
 This one should definitely be text. If its not..someone punch me.

lol. i do not know. but thanks for changing. now i can have more good laughs.


- --
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g
.


in a free world without fences, who needs gates.


learn linux:
'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition'   http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz
'The Linux Documentation Project'   http://www.tldp.org/

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 14:42 -0700, Antonio Olivares wrote:
 Of course I am not asking that Fedora to include it.  I am not stupid
 and do not want to hurt Fedora in any way shape or form.  I am stating
 that those programs that help in editing video and producing stuff
 that is *very hard* to make it work in Fedora, to try it out with some
 free software/or proprietary software for the EvilEmpireOS via wine
 and see if it works or not? 

Sorry if I misunderstood you Antonio (I thought you were proposing a
workaround to the license/patent problems).

OT: you *really* should take a look at your mail client (Yahoo
apparently). The long lines and the lack of attribution in citations
make your posts really quite hard to read.

Cheers

poc

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

  Of course I am not asking that Fedora to include it. 
 I am not stupid
  and do not want to hurt Fedora in any way shape or
 form.  I am stating
  that those programs that help in editing video and
 producing stuff
  that is *very hard* to make it work in Fedora, to try
 it out with some
  free software/or proprietary software for the
 EvilEmpireOS via wine
  and see if it works or not? 
 
 Sorry if I misunderstood you Antonio (I thought you were
 proposing a
 workaround to the license/patent problems).
I wish I could find some solutions, but I lack the legal expertise and 
knowledge to determine if they could be used.  I can use language, and my words 
carefully, but it will sadly not work :(
I can find contradictions, and parts where you may use ..., but those 
statements will unfortunately not hold water in a court of law :( 
 
 OT: you *really* should take a look at your mail client
 (Yahoo
 apparently). The long lines and the lack of attribution in
 citations
 make your posts really quite hard to read.
Rahul also referred something dealing with this
he wrote
 PS: You should set your mail client to do line wraps properly.

 
 Cheers
 
 poc
 
 -- 

I am using old yahoo mail, new yahoo mail encourages me to top-post and does 
not put  when replying to mail :(  I thought that it was OK, but hopefully 
some experienced yahoo user can advice me to fix this :)

Regards,

Antonio 


  

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 15:37 -0700, Antonio Olivares wrote:
 I am using old yahoo mail, new yahoo mail encourages me to top-post
 and does not put  when replying to mail :(  I thought that it was
 OK, but hopefully some experienced yahoo user can advice me to fix
 this :)

Don't use it myself, but a look at the online help doesn't indicate an
obvious fix, i.e. it's as broken as most webmails. The new version does
allow attributed citations (in a highly non-standard format), and you
can reply inline or at the end by remembering to do it, but in that
sense it's just the same as Evolution, which also encourages top-posting
(hopefully to be an option in a future release).

BTW, it also says it's supported on Windoze and MacOS, whatever that
means. No mention of Linux of course.

poc

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thu, 2008-08-14 at 18:45 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
 in that sense it's just the same as Evolution, which also encourages
 top-posting

Not here it doesn't...

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

Tim:
 The input side of things is similarly warped.  I need to be able to
 import DV, and work on the files in their own format.  Notwithstanding
 the problems in trying to get video into a system on a virtually ignored
 firewire port, converting digital video from one format to another is
 not only wastefully time consuming, but damaging to video quality.

Jeff Spaleta:
 hmm... dvgrab as shipped in F9 saw my camera on my firewire port just
 fine. And i can do simple clip manipulation of the dv footage pulled
 with dvgrab in pitivi then render it to whatever compressed formats
 gstreamer supports on the system...by default that would be theora. 

Here, nothing would import video through the firewire port, even if I
just hit play on the camera and didn't try remotely controlling the
player from the computer (which didn't work either).  Apparently the
firewire port does work enough that you can see the camera's been
recognised, if you look through the system logs.  And even if I imported
video via Windows, then tried to make use of the already captured files
in Linux, I got nowhere.  And adding every available codec didn't help,
things, at all.

Again, re-rendering lossy compressed video is to be avoided at all
costs, it's seriously detrimental to quality.  And usually would be
completely avoidable, anyway, as most editing is cuts only which
doesn't need re-rendering, just interrupting the streams at the right
moment, and joining two streams together.

To be fair, though, I find all computer editing software to be crap
(including Windows and Mac).  Unless you have the dosh for real
professional editing software, they're rotten to use compared to a real
edit suite.  Terrible user-interfaces, lacking essential features (while
full of rubbish features), time-wasting operating principles...

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Here, nothing would import video through the firewire port, even if I
 just hit play on the camera and didn't try remotely controlling the
 player from the computer (which didn't work either).  Apparently the
 firewire port does work enough that you can see the camera's been
 recognised, if you look through the system logs.

We should look at this more closely...probably in another thread. It
might be a kernel regression..or it could be some sort of acl issue
associated with the new authorization scheme that PolicyKit/ConsoleKit
uses for device access. We need to compare notes..but not in this
thread.

And even if I imported
 video via Windows, then tried to make use of the already captured files
 in Linux, I got nowhere.  And adding every available codec didn't help,
 things, at all.

 Again, re-rendering lossy compressed video is to be avoided at all
 costs, it's seriously detrimental to quality.  And usually would be
 completely avoidable, anyway, as most editing is cuts only which
 doesn't need re-rendering, just interrupting the streams at the right
 moment, and joining two streams together.

pitivi knows how to deal with dv as source material.. and it does
basic clip sequencing and chopping.  I've use it to sequence a couple
of things shot from the panasonic minidv camcorder that I have, and
then used audacity to edit the sound track separately, then mixed the
two together into a final theora video with vorbis audio.  A topic for
another thread.

-jef

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 00:01 +, g wrote:
 switch to gmail and set up configurations.

Gmail also encourages top-posting, though at least the quoting mechanism
is a bit more standard.

poc

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread Les Mikesell


Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:


Gmail also encourages top-posting, though at least the quoting mechanism
is a bit more standard.



You do know how to move the cursor, don't you?  Starting with the cursor 
at the top shouldn't encourage you to top-post, it should encourage you 
to move down through the quoted text, deleting unwanted context and 
adding your response in line in each section.


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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

Patrick O'Callaghan:
 Yes it does. If you hit Reply the cursor is left at the top of the
 quoted material and has to be manually moved to the bottom. That to me
 is encouraging top-posting. I reported this on the Evo Bugzilla a
 while back, and after exchanging views with the devels was told they
 would add an option to change this in a future version.

If it put blank space above the quoted text, with the cursor there, and
quoted text *further* below, I'd tend to agree.  But it doesn't, the
quoted text is right at the top of the page.  That's not exactly
conducive to typing there.

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thursday 14 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote:
  Telling us to move to another distro is not the

 correct answer.  Also to get it from livna or freshrpms
 might be an option, but is it the best alternative?

 Ideally, we would see software patents going away but
 meanwhile we would
 want to see good support for non patent encumbered codecs
 and supporting
 them out of the box by using multimedia frameworks like
 gstreamer is the
 best alternative we have and that is what Fedora does.
 Third party repos
 makes it very easy to drop in the additional codecs as
 plugins.

Here like I have mentioned in the same thread.  A Fedora spin without (all
 the free stuff(non patent encumbered ) that is provided by default) would
 make sense and would free Fedora/Red Hat from litigation and would make it
 easier to include the stuff that will make media players play everything
 under the sun and will not get in the way when buiding these apps.

For instance the totem that comes with Fedora, tries very hard to play
 dvd's, but it can't because of the legal issues.  Why not make a spin that
 does not have Totem, gstreamer and all the free stuff so that users can
 have the power to build these apps non-crippled?

 As Jef noted, Firefox 3.1 will include native support for
 ogg (theora
 for video and vorbis for audio) which is also a pretty good
 move. If you
 disagree and want proprietary or patent encumbered codec
 support by
 default, Fedora probably isn't the right choice for
 you.

IT is a good thing, but it will not support everything out there under the
 sun :(

That is why users are asking for, is it reasonable for end users to ask that
 Fedora *not include all the free stuff* so that they can add the stuff that
 they want and play everything that they want and of course, Fedora/Red Hat
 will have no responsibility whatsoever if an end user gets sued,
 Fedora/Redhat will be immune and should not/cannot be taken to court.

 Rahul

It is not a bad thing Rahul. I have mplayer and gecko-media player built
 from source and I am doing fine.  I am not complaining.  It would make
 sense to not have to ship crippled players *unless the users want those
 only**

Regards,

Antonio

I'm going to throw in a hearty second to that notion.  In my attempts to get 
some, any damned thing to work here, it appears I now have a dep clash even 
with kino-1.2.0 from livna:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]# kino
kino: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/libavformat.so.51: undefined symbol: 
av_crc04C11DB7

I have removed the house cleaning lines from all the gmerlin stuffs and 
rebuilt them, of which that is a small part, and I will now see if I can nuke 
what must be a newer version of libavformat.

Which isn't doing any good.  Apparently kino is fixated on libavformat.so.51 
and there seems to be no way that I can make it look at the locally built 
libavformat.so.52 located in /opt/gmerlin/lib, and I think is properly setup 
in /etc/ld.so.conf.d.

Since the kino on livna is about 8 months old, version 1.2.0, is there a 
chance that 1.3.1 will hit livna before F8 is dead?  It might be built 
against the later libraries.

Thanks.

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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
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Air pollution is really making us pay through the nose.

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thursday 14 August 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Antonio Olivares wrote:
 Here like I have mentioned in the same thread.  A Fedora spin without (all
 the free stuff(non patent encumbered ) that is provided by default)

would make sense and would free Fedora/Red Hat from litigation and would
make it easier to include the stuff that will make media players play
everything under the sun and will not get in the way when buiding these
apps.

It won't make sense for Fedora to not include support for the non-patent
encumbered codecs since one of the primary objectives of Fedora is to
enable and support free and open source software. Besides multimedia
frameworks like gstreamer is a dependency of many many apps and
excluding them all is not feasible. Normally users who want additional
components would just grab those from a third party repo. If you are
compiling from source, that's a smaller nice of users and you are very
well equipped to remove whatever you don't want. Again, if you disagree
and think your goal will help end users, feel free to build a Fedora
spin exactly the way you want. The tools that we used to build Fedora
are all available as part of Fedora.

 It is not a bad thing Rahul. I have mplayer and gecko-media player built
 from source and I am doing fine.  I am not complaining.

It would make sense to not have to ship crippled players *unless the
users want those only**

Gstreamer has a plugin model and we don't include some of the plugins.
This process doesn't require actively crippling anything.

Rahul

Then why, after installing about 10 or 12 packages all purported to be 
gstreamer related, can I not make it run  do something?  I doesn't even show 
up in the kde menu's.

Seems like a good question to me anyway.  Based on the hoopla here over the 
last 2 days, I've installed all the pulseaudio stuffs yum can find, and all 
the gstreamer stuffs that yum can find.

The end result for pulseaudio has already been posted in this thread, and 
absolutely zip of gstreamer or gst as it seems to be called in some corners 
of the ring, and nothing of those packages can be executed.  Do they 
conflict?  If so, why is there absolutely zip about either in the logs?

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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thursday 14 August 2008, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
Gene Heskett wrote:
 Running paman from a shell gets a connection refused, and I don't see
 anything in /etc/rc.d/init.d to start a server which could then refuse the
 connection.

 And of course my system is now silent.  Consulting First Steps, I tried
  pulseaudio -nC and got sort of a prompt, which when I enter help,
 spits out a long list of options.  As I'm sitting there contemplating the
 next step, my kde related sound effects to indicate the type of incoming
 mail are now working again.

 I've done a killall on it and restarted with some of the other options,
 but they all exit for various permissions problems.  And I think my audio
 is still working but I have not tested all paths.

 A ps -ea shows its running, and an lsof|grep pulse returns a lengthy list.
 But nothing has made it to dmesg or messages.

 padevchooser is there, but gives no output anyplace.  A ^C kills it back
 to the shell prompt.

 pavucontrol runs, puts up a connection refused box and exits when the box
 is closed.

 pavumeter (--record) only show the refused box.

 Next?

Dumb question - do you have X running? 

yes of course.

If so, is root logged into 
the GUI?

Ditto.

I believe these 3 programs are all GUI programs, and even 
root will get a connection refused message if another user is logged in.

Maybe I'm dense, but what the heck has x running as root, a visual interface, 
got to do with what is supposed to be an audio application?

Mikkel



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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

  Here like I have mentioned in the same thread.  A
 Fedora spin without (all
  the free stuff(non patent encumbered ) that is
 provided by default)
 
 would make sense and would free Fedora/Red Hat from
 litigation and would
 make it easier to include the stuff that will make
 media players play
 everything under the sun and will not get in the way
 when buiding these
 apps.
 
 It won't make sense for Fedora to not include
 support for the non-patent
 encumbered codecs since one of the primary objectives
 of Fedora is to
 enable and support free and open source software.
 Besides multimedia
 frameworks like gstreamer is a dependency of many many
 apps and
 excluding them all is not feasible. Normally users who
 want additional
 components would just grab those from a third party
 repo. If you are
 compiling from source, that's a smaller nice of
 users and you are very
 well equipped to remove whatever you don't want.
 Again, if you disagree
 and think your goal will help end users, feel free to
 build a Fedora
 spin exactly the way you want. The tools that we used
 to build Fedora
 are all available as part of Fedora.
 
  It is not a bad thing Rahul. I have mplayer and
 gecko-media player built
  from source and I am doing fine.  I am not
 complaining.
 
 It would make sense to not have to ship crippled
 players *unless the
 users want those only**
 
 Gstreamer has a plugin model and we don't include
 some of the plugins.
 This process doesn't require actively crippling
 anything.
 
 Rahul
 
 Then why, after installing about 10 or 12 packages all
 purported to be 
 gstreamer related, can I not make it run  do
 something?  I doesn't even show 
 up in the kde menu's.
 
 Seems like a good question to me anyway.  Based on the
 hoopla here over the 
 last 2 days, I've installed all the pulseaudio stuffs
 yum can find, and all 
 the gstreamer stuffs that yum can find.
 
 The end result for pulseaudio has already been posted in
 this thread, and 
 absolutely zip of gstreamer or gst as it seems to be called
 in some corners 
 of the ring, and nothing of those packages can be executed.
  Do they 
 conflict?  If so, why is there absolutely zip about either
 in the logs?
 
 -- 
 Cheers, Gene
 There are four boxes to be used in defense of
 liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that
 order.
 -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
 Religion is something left over from the infancy of
 our intelligence, it will
 fade away as we adopt reason and science as our
 guidelines.
 -- Bertrand Russell
 
 -- 

There are several gstreamer plugins:

http://www.gnome.org/projects/totem/

Codecs

Totem can display a variety of formats, based on what backend you use. To see 
what backend you are using check the About dialog of Totem.
GStreamer

When using the GStreamer backend, you can install multiple plugin packages. You 
can install them the same way as you would install totem. Some information 
about the gstreamer-plugins packages can be found here.
gst-plugins-base
the basic and essential plug-ins for GStreamer
gst-plugins-good
the plug-ins for most Open formats
gst-plugins-ugly
good-quality plug-ins that might pose distribution problems, needed for DVD 
playback
gst-plugins-bad
a set of plug-ins that need more work, needed for YouTube videos
gst-ffmpeg
FFmpeg-based plug-in, contains all the basic decoders for popular codecs, such 
as DivX and WMV
Pitfdll
Plug-ins using the Windows codec DLLs for which no free software implementation 
exists yet.
xine-lib

Everything's included in this version, apart from some proprietary codecs that 
require Windows DLLs. Check the FAQ on xine-lib's website. That should sort 
most of you out.

And there's the xine part.  To use that one, we can install totem-xine, if not 
it falls back on gstreamer plugins.  

I have sucessfully installed the latest xine-lib-1.1.15 from xine.de page.  I 
have made it work.  Onto VLC which I will try again one of these days.  

Hope you succeed building new kino Gene!  Don't give up.  I'll cheer for you :) 

Regards,

Antonio 


  

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread Mikkel L. Ellertson

Gene Heskett wrote:
 On Thursday 14 August 2008, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
 
 I believe these 3 programs are all GUI programs, and even 
 root will get a connection refused message if another user is logged in.
 
 Maybe I'm dense, but what the heck has x running as root, a visual interface, 
 got to do with what is supposed to be an audio application?
 
What I was trying to say is that if another user is using X, then
even root can not start a GUI program from the command line. You do
not have permission to connect to the X server. Now, if you have
more then one X secession open, then you may have to pass the
display to your program, or set the DISPLAY variable. (DISPLAY is
not set for a CLI login if you started X from another login.)

You run into this problem with any that tryes to connect to the X
server if you do not own the X server. (Unless you turn off access
control.)

With you logged in as root to the GUI, this is not the problem yo
are running into - this is why I asked the question - to determine
if this was your problem. As I don't log into the GUI as root, I am
not sure if it causes problems with PA, but I am guessing that it
does. I have not problems with PA when I am logged in as a normal user.

If you have some spare time, try logging in as a normal user and see
if that changes anything. If everything works, it is a good
indication of a bug on how root is handled. If it does not work,
then it is a good indication that it is a problem with your specific
hardware/software combination...

Mikkel
-- 

  Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!



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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)


Gene Heskett wrote:



Then why, after installing about 10 or 12 packages all purported to be 
gstreamer related, can I not make it run  do something?  I doesn't even show 
up in the kde menu's.


You didn't mention the packages. Gstreamer plugins won't show up in the 
menu. These are plumbing that applications such as media players take 
advantage of. Not something end user consumable.


Rahul

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thursday 14 August 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Here, nothing would import video through the firewire port, even if I
 just hit play on the camera and didn't try remotely controlling the
 player from the computer (which didn't work either).  Apparently the
 firewire port does work enough that you can see the camera's been
 recognised, if you look through the system logs.

We should look at this more closely...probably in another thread. It
might be a kernel regression..or it could be some sort of acl issue
associated with the new authorization scheme that PolicyKit/ConsoleKit
uses for device access. We need to compare notes..but not in this
thread.

And even if I imported

 video via Windows, then tried to make use of the already captured files
 in Linux, I got nowhere.  And adding every available codec didn't help,
 things, at all.

 Again, re-rendering lossy compressed video is to be avoided at all
 costs, it's seriously detrimental to quality.  And usually would be
 completely avoidable, anyway, as most editing is cuts only which
 doesn't need re-rendering, just interrupting the streams at the right
 moment, and joining two streams together.

pitivi knows how to deal with dv as source material.. and it does
basic clip sequencing and chopping.  I've use it to sequence a couple
of things shot from the panasonic minidv camcorder that I have, and
then used audacity to edit the sound track separately, then mixed the
two together into a final theora video with vorbis audio.  A topic for
another thread.

-jef

But, it cannot import directly from the firewire, so without a working dvgrab, 
that is about as functional as those famous appendages on the tummy of a boar 
hog.

FWIW, I did get kino-1.3.1 built and running, the showstopper was in frame.h 
in the ffmpeg sub src tree.  So I'm a happy camper again  still using F8. 
I'll email Dan, the edits were very simple and I'd include them here, but the 
Lawyers would have a cow or 10.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Fats Loves Madelyn.

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thursday 14 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote:
[...]

Hope you succeed building new kino Gene!  Don't give up.  I'll cheer for you
 :)

I got that puppy, Antonio!  See my other post from 5 minutes ago.

3 edits in a .h file and voila!

Regards,

Antonio



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There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Somewhere in DOWNTOWN BURBANK a prostitute is OVERCOOKING a LAMB CHOP!!

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Thursday 14 August 2008, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
Gene Heskett wrote:
 On Thursday 14 August 2008, Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:
 I believe these 3 programs are all GUI programs, and even
 root will get a connection refused message if another user is logged in.

 Maybe I'm dense, but what the heck has x running as root, a visual
 interface, got to do with what is supposed to be an audio application?

What I was trying to say is that if another user is using X, then
even root can not start a GUI program from the command line. You do
not have permission to connect to the X server. Now, if you have
more then one X secession open, then you may have to pass the
display to your program, or set the DISPLAY variable. (DISPLAY is
not set for a CLI login if you started X from another login.)

Only one user here, my wife can't even master a session of gedit if I run it 
for her and then give her this chair.

You run into this problem with any that tryes to connect to the X
server if you do not own the X server. (Unless you turn off access
control.)

With you logged in as root to the GUI, this is not the problem yo
are running into - this is why I asked the question - to determine
if this was your problem. As I don't log into the GUI as root, I am
not sure if it causes problems with PA, but I am guessing that it
does. I have not problems with PA when I am logged in as a normal user.

If you have some spare time, try logging in as a normal user and see
if that changes anything. If everything works, it is a good
indication of a bug on how root is handled. If it does not work,
then it is a good indication that it is a problem with your specific
hardware/software combination...

Mikkel

I did get kino-1.3.1 built and running just now. :)

Thanks Mikkel.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Somewhere in DOWNTOWN BURBANK a prostitute is OVERCOOKING a LAMB CHOP!!

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-14 Thread g

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Les Mikesell wrote:
 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
 Gmail also encourages top-posting, though at least the quoting mechanism
 is a bit more standard.
 
 You do know how to move the cursor, don't you?  Starting with the cursor 
 at the top shouldn't encourage you to top-post, it should encourage you 
 to move down through the quoted text, deleting unwanted context and 
 adding your response in line in each section.

les,
have you not noticed that poc always, that i have noticed,
starts his 'stop-top-posting' below replier's top-post.
 [ tho he does tend to leave history. :o) ]

my preference would be for cursor to start at 1st quote '', this would save
3 down arrow strokes and make it easier for 'snip'.



- --
tc,hago.

g
.


in a free world without fences, who needs gates.


learn linux:
'Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition'   http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz
'The Linux Documentation Project'   http://www.tldp.org/

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iD8DBQFIpPfI+C4Bj9Rkw/wRAsuCAKDDY+V0P2a7p2ap6ENyD8uIJFcnMQCePO8Y
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F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

Greetings;

Why is it that every decent multimedia production tool always requires stuff 
to build its tarball that is not part of the fedora repositories?

I have now failed for the second time to build a video editing application 
that is compatible with the camera I have, and the multimedia build tools 
available for fedora.  Most recently, kino, which FWIW I had running 
flawlessly on FC2.

2 weeks ago I gave up building OpenMovieEditor for the same reason, its 
dependencies simply cannot be satisfied on an F8 system.

Here is the exit stanza for a 'make' in the kino src tree, most recent 
release:

In file included from dvtitler.cc:32:
../frame.h:51:35: error: libavcodec/avcodec.h: No such file or directory
../frame.h:52:37: error: libavformat/avformat.h: No such file or directory
../frame.h:54:35: error: libswscale/swscale.h: No such file or directory
../frame.h:111: error: ISO C++ forbids declaration of ‘AVCodecContext’ with no 
type
../frame.h:111: error: expected ‘;’ before ‘*’ token
make[3]: *** [dvtitler.lo] Error 1
make[3]: Leaving directory `/usr/src/kino-1.3.1/src/dvtitler'
make[2]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/src/kino-1.3.1/src'
make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/src/kino-1.3.1'
make: *** [all] Error 2

Those files are similar to the failure of OpenMovieEditor, which if I could 
build, I might be able to use, but I still need kino to manage the video 
importation from my camera, which has a firewire port and handles video in 
real time, something that I don't believe OpenMovieEditor can manage.

I've been with redhat/fedora for a bit over 10 years now for my main machine.  
When F8 support ends, I think that will be grounds for a divorce.  I'm tired 
of the keep the good stuff on the other side of the pond for legal reasons 
BS that is endlessly repeated from Research Triangle Park.  Why the hell 
should we be 2nd class citizens?

-- 
Cheers, Gene
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
The difference between a career and a job is about 20 hours a week.

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-13 Thread Ed Greshko


Gene Heskett wrote:

I've been with redhat/fedora for a bit over 10 years now for my main machine.  
When F8 support ends, I think that will be grounds for a divorce.  I'm tired 
of the keep the good stuff on the other side of the pond for legal reasons 
BS that is endlessly repeated from Research Triangle Park.  Why the hell 
should we be 2nd class citizens?


This issue has been discussed ad nauseum on this list.

What is your solution?  Does Red Hat allow the Fedora Project to include all 
the bits and subject themselves to litigation?  Not include anything related 
to multimedia?  Point their users to places to pick things up...and subject 
themselves to litigation?


It sounds like Fedora doesn't meet your needs.  If that is the case, then it 
is OK to move.  I seriously doubt Red Hat will change its position for 
you...unless you offer to pay any and all legal fees as well as all 
judgments against them.


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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Gene Heskett [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 I've been with redhat/fedora for a bit over 10 years now for my main
 machine.
 When F8 support ends, I think that will be grounds for a divorce.  I'm
 tired
 of the keep the good stuff on the other side of the pond for legal
 reasons
 BS that is endlessly repeated from Research Triangle Park.  Why the hell
 should we be 2nd class citizens?



Do you have the time to actively maintain a fork of ffmpeg that uses a
mature runtime detectable plugin framework that allows us to separate out
specifically encumbered bits from the bits of ffmpeg that we can ship?
Because that is exactly what its going to take.

A lot of applications sit on top of ffmpeg and ffmpeg is structured that you
have to make compile time choices as to what sort of functionality it
exposes. We could include a crippled ffmpeg stack and the applications which
make use of it that let us work with a subset of codecs but because of
ffmpeg's lack of runtime functionality detection..those applications could
not be supplimented with additional codec support via plugins from
elsewhere.

So as a result we dont include anything which needs ffmpeg as a build time
dependancy, because we have been reluctant to provide cut down applications
which can not be supplimented with plugins for additional functionality.

Sucks.. but the ffmpeg developers made a framework chose that is incredibly
inflexible.
Unlike xine...unlike gstreamer. If you want mature video editting in
Fedora..support new application codebases which make use of gstreamer as a
framework and do not directly relying on ffmpeg. pitivi could use some solid
developer love.

-jef
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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Gene Heskett 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
 I've been with redhat/fedora for a bit over 10 years now for my main
 machine.
 When F8 support ends, I think that will be grounds for a divorce.  I'm
 tired
 of the keep the good stuff on the other side of the pond for legal
 reasons
 BS that is endlessly repeated from Research Triangle Park.  Why the hell
 should we be 2nd class citizens?

Do you have the time to actively maintain a fork of ffmpeg that uses a
mature runtime detectable plugin framework that allows us to separate out
specifically encumbered bits from the bits of ffmpeg that we can ship?
Because that is exactly what its going to take.

A lot of applications sit on top of ffmpeg and ffmpeg is structured that you
have to make compile time choices as to what sort of functionality it
exposes. We could include a crippled ffmpeg stack and the applications which
make use of it that let us work with a subset of codecs but because of
ffmpeg's lack of runtime functionality detection..those applications could
not be supplimented with additional codec support via plugins from
elsewhere.

So as a result we dont include anything which needs ffmpeg as a build time
dependancy, because we have been reluctant to provide cut down applications
which can not be supplimented with plugins for additional functionality.

Sucks.. but the ffmpeg developers made a framework chose that is incredibly
inflexible.

I wasn't aware of that aspect of it.

Unlike xine...unlike gstreamer. If you want mature video editting in
Fedora..support new application codebases which make use of gstreamer as a
framework and do not directly relying on ffmpeg. pitivi could use some solid
developer love.

Can gstreamer do what an offshore ffmpeg can?  I think not, regardless of how 
much better it can handle plugins, you would still be removing those bits 
that actually make it work.  Also, gstreamer, which might be somebodies pet 
for all I know, seems to do weird things that require a tap on the reset 
button here, so AFAIAC, its not ready for prime time either.

Whats a 'pitivi'?

-jef

Thanks Jef


-- 
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There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
I find this corpse guilty of carrying a concealed weapon and I fine it $40.
-- Judge Roy Bean, finding a pistol and $40 on a man he'd
   just shot.

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

2008-08-13 Thread Antonio Olivares

 Greetings;
 
 Why is it that every decent multimedia production tool
 always requires stuff 
 to build its tarball that is not part of the fedora
 repositories?
 
 I have now failed for the second time to build a video
 editing application 
 that is compatible with the camera I have, and the
 multimedia build tools 
 available for fedora.  Most recently, kino, which FWIW I
 had running 
 flawlessly on FC2.
 
 2 weeks ago I gave up building OpenMovieEditor for the same
 reason, its 
 dependencies simply cannot be satisfied on an F8 system.
 
 Here is the exit stanza for a 'make' in the kino
 src tree, most recent 
 release:
 
 In file included from dvtitler.cc:32:
 ../frame.h:51:35: error: libavcodec/avcodec.h: No such file
 or directory
 ../frame.h:52:37: error: libavformat/avformat.h: No such
 file or directory
 ../frame.h:54:35: error: libswscale/swscale.h: No such file
 or directory
 ../frame.h:111: error: ISO C++ forbids declaration of
 ‘AVCodecContext’ with no 
 type
 ../frame.h:111: error: expected ‘;’ before ‘*’
 token
 make[3]: *** [dvtitler.lo] Error 1
 make[3]: Leaving directory
 `/usr/src/kino-1.3.1/src/dvtitler'
 make[2]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
 make[2]: Leaving directory `/usr/src/kino-1.3.1/src'
 make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
 make[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/src/kino-1.3.1'
 make: *** [all] Error 2
 
 Those files are similar to the failure of OpenMovieEditor,
 which if I could 
 build, I might be able to use, but I still need kino to
 manage the video 
 importation from my camera, which has a firewire port and
 handles video in 
 real time, something that I don't believe
 OpenMovieEditor can manage.
 
 I've been with redhat/fedora for a bit over 10 years
 now for my main machine.  
 When F8 support ends, I think that will be grounds for a
 divorce.  I'm tired 
 of the keep the good stuff on the other side of the
 pond for legal reasons 
 BS that is endlessly repeated from Research Triangle Park. 
 Why the hell 
 should we be 2nd class citizens?
 
 -- 
 Cheers, Gene
 There are four boxes to be used in defense of
 liberty:
  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that
 order.
 -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
 The difference between a career and a job is about 20 hours
 a week.
 
 -- 

This is the same stuff/error that kills vlc from building when compiling from 
source.  It asked for ffmpeg, I got that and installed it, it then complains 
about ffmeg-devel and I get it and install it and it still complains about not 
having it.   I know I can get vlc from livna and I have done that, but I wanted 
to build it from source so I can easily update, but it does not work :(

Try to install it via yum.  Enable livna or freshrpms and install it from 
there.  I guess it might be the best way?  

Regards,

Antonio 


  

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Gene Heskett [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 Can gstreamer do what an offshore ffmpeg can?


ffmpeg can do a lot that is not directly tied to a specific encumbered
encoding. All libraries end up decoding the encumbered formats and using
some sort of internal representation of the stream that is useful to work
with as a raw data source.  Video editting does not strictly require
encumbered crap.  If we had the video editting application such as kino in
the distro...we could edit raw dv from camcorders into quite usable compress
theora videos.

Sadly kino relies on ffmpg to do this. So I could rip out the encumbered
bits from ffmpeg, include that as a package..and then package kino to use
it. In fact I personally have such a package, but I haven't submitted any of
it for inclusion..because including that sort of thing would mean that the
users of that package could not add support for other codecs to use with
kino. They'd be stuck with my crippled ffmpeg and thus a crippled kino.  And
it would be marginally harder for them to install a fully functional kino
once my package was available. 3rd party repos which provide a fully
functional ffmpeg and kino would have to bend over backwards to work around
my 'crippled' ffmpeg stack. And as much as I want to make useful video
production tools available in distro..I don't want to make work harder for
the maintainers and users of those 3rd party repsotiories.

All of this because ffmpeg doesn't deal with plugin technology at any level.
Unlike xine... unlike gstreamer.


 I think not, regardless of how
 much better it can handle plugins, you would still be removing those bits


infinitely better support...since ffmpeg has no support at all for runtime
detection of codec support.  c'mon even windows media player's framework
lets you add codec support as plugins doesn't it?



 that actually make it work.  Also, gstreamer, which might be somebodies pet
 for all I know, seems to do weird things that require a tap on the reset
 button here, so AFAIAC, its not ready for prime time either.

 Whats a 'pitivi'?


I suggest you make an effort to read up on gstreamer and the applications
which are attempting to make use of it.  gst is already pretty deeply
integrated into the default gnome application stack. You are probably making
use of the framework without knowing it already.

If you want to work on a technical solution towards better video production
tools in Fedora, gstreamer's pretty much the only framework that's flexible
enough to build on with out running directly into legal issues to get
anything in at all.

Pitivi is a simple non-linear editor that is in distro right now, but it
needs some love.  There are several of music sequencing applications based
on gst, and there are some reasonably good video playback applictions out
there, even video streaming and capturing apps... but the one thing that is
really unexplored is video editing.

If all you want to do is get mad and shake your first in the air and march
around in a little circle beating your chest at the fact that we are
cautious about legal issues..including patently unreasonable things..like
software patents...I guess I can't stop you..but you should know...you look
really funny doing it... and its not helpful.

You want to be helpful? Work towards getting a mature video editting app on
this list:
http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/apps/

If we can get that done, that would go a long way.

-jef
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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Antonio Olivares wrote:
[...]

This is the same stuff/error that kills vlc from building when compiling
 from source.  It asked for ffmpeg, I got that and installed it, it then
 complains about ffmeg-devel and I get it and install it and it still
 complains about not having it.   I know I can get vlc from livna and I have
 done that, but I wanted to build it from source so I can easily update, but
 it does not work :(

Try to install it via yum.  Enable livna or freshrpms and install it from
 there.  I guess it might be the best way?

Dunno about freshrpms, but livna's versions of kino are very long in the 
tooth.

Regards,

Antonio

Thanks Antonio.


-- 
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There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Youth doesn't excuse everything.
-- Dr. Janice Lester (in Kirk's body), Turnabout Intruder,
   stardate 5928.5.

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

Dunno about freshrpms, but livna's versions of kino are very long in the
 tooth.


dude... they just release 1.3.1 this week... livna has 1.3.0 which was the
last release in like feb.  Do you even keep up with kino development? I
talked to the kino developer last november...at that point in time he
considered kino development as done...and did not expect to see much more in
the way of new exciting development with kino. He's keeping it maintained
just so it basically keeps working as it is. Adding an additional default
export script or adding contributed translations are pretty minor
advancements.  I actually worked with him to create an ogg theora exporter
that uses gstreamer, instead of ffmpeg prior to the 1.3.0 release in Feb.

-jef
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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)

On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Gene Heskett 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:
 Can gstreamer do what an offshore ffmpeg can?

ffmpeg can do a lot that is not directly tied to a specific encumbered
encoding. All libraries end up decoding the encumbered formats and using
some sort of internal representation of the stream that is useful to work
with as a raw data source.  Video editting does not strictly require
encumbered crap.  If we had the video editting application such as kino in
the distro...we could edit raw dv from camcorders into quite usable compress
theora videos.

Sadly kino relies on ffmpg to do this. So I could rip out the encumbered
bits from ffmpeg, include that as a package..and then package kino to use
it. In fact I personally have such a package, but I haven't submitted any of
it for inclusion..because including that sort of thing would mean that the
users of that package could not add support for other codecs to use with
kino. They'd be stuck with my crippled ffmpeg and thus a crippled kino.  And
it would be marginally harder for them to install a fully functional kino
once my package was available. 3rd party repos which provide a fully
functional ffmpeg and kino would have to bend over backwards to work around
my 'crippled' ffmpeg stack. And as much as I want to make useful video
production tools available in distro..I don't want to make work harder for
the maintainers and users of those 3rd party repsotiories.

All of this because ffmpeg doesn't deal with plugin technology at any level.
Unlike xine... unlike gstreamer.

 I think not, regardless of how
 much better it can handle plugins, you would still be removing those bits

infinitely better support...since ffmpeg has no support at all for runtime
detection of codec support.  c'mon even windows media player's framework
lets you add codec support as plugins doesn't it?

 that actually make it work.  Also, gstreamer, which might be somebodies
 pet for all I know, seems to do weird things that require a tap on the
 reset button here, so AFAIAC, its not ready for prime time either.

 Whats a 'pitivi'?

I suggest you make an effort to read up on gstreamer and the applications
which are attempting to make use of it.  gst is already pretty deeply
integrated into the default gnome application stack. You are probably making
use of the framework without knowing it already.

If you want to work on a technical solution towards better video production
tools in Fedora, gstreamer's pretty much the only framework that's flexible
enough to build on with out running directly into legal issues to get
anything in at all.

Pitivi is a simple non-linear editor that is in distro right now, but it
needs some love.  There are several of music sequencing applications based
on gst, and there are some reasonably good video playback applictions out
there, even video streaming and capturing apps... but the one thing that is
really unexplored is video editing.

If all you want to do is get mad and shake your first in the air and march
around in a little circle beating your chest at the fact that we are
cautious about legal issues..including patently unreasonable things..like
software patents...I guess I can't stop you..but you should know...you look
really funny doing it... and its not helpful.

I wasn't trying to be funny, Jef.  In fact, since I've got sugar and am 
several years the far side of 70 already, only a masochist would enjoy 
watching that.  But I am a great believer in making things work the way I 
want them to work, and going to an offshore distro seems to me to be the most 
efficient use of my remaining time.  I need it to work now, not at some point 
in an indefinitely measured future.  That's all that has ever been promised, 
and there have been 2 or 3 multimedia editors marched in as being the current 
version of kitten britches since FC2  a kino that worked, and each has 
fallen by the wayside.  It seems the coders can come up with a pretty face  
nothing behind it, or difficult to use cli tools, and never the twain shall 
meet under US law.

You want to be helpful? Work towards getting a mature video editting app on
this list:
http://gstreamer.freedesktop.org/apps/

If we can get that done, that would go a long way.

My days of giving code a bunch of much needed TLC were 15 years ago, and about 
56 bits narrower a data bus.  Now I play canary in a coal mine by running the 
last Linus blessed rc kernel, 2.6.27-rc3 ATM.
-jef

Nah. I've used kino before.  The button has been pushed, and Ubuntu 8.04 is 
coming in via ktorrent right now.

-- 
Cheers, Gene
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Hope is a waking dream.
-- Aristotle

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Re: F8(1) vs multimedia production(0)