Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
let's see if anyone wants to fight me about my opinions, first, then ask again! (but you're right, it's the education part that's so vital. i remember when i had all my cats tested, because a recent former housemate, tested negative at the shelter, had died from complications of the virus my vet told me that i didn't need to retest--they were all negative--until/unless someone showed symptoms. that was in 2000. they haven't, and i haven't.) -- Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
MC, do you mind if I pass this along to my neighborhood association website? There's a lot of fear out there. When I brought the kittens home, I chose to stop crying, get educated, and move on. I would like others to benefit from your post. --- On Mon, 11/3/08, MaryChristine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: MaryChristine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 2:42 PM > see, i would say keep them together, because they've > probably already been > as exposed as they're gonna be, and if mom is negative, > it means their > exposure is probably from great-aunt tabby, the > neighborhood nursemaid. we > don't really know for sure how FeLV works in kittens > who don't get it from > their moms, nor if a mom who is negative after birth was > positive in early > pregnancy but passed it out of her system while pregnant, > or if she DID do > that, if maybe she passed some of her > strong-enough-to-do-that immunities on > to the babies! mom's being negative, tho, is a very > good sign for the > strength of the genetic side of things. and with four > negatives already, > you may just have come in on the tail end of the exposure > curve on that > one > > (yes, i DO tend to be more optimistic, because when only > 30% of cats who > test positive remain infected, and vaccinated cats who are > really negative > don't ever seem to get the virus even when in close > proximity with other > cats, well, i am nowhere near as frightened of the > CONTAGION element of this > virus than i used to be. the results of it, when activated? > that's a > different story altogether. > > MC > > -- > Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors! > Maybe That'll Make The Difference > > MaryChristine > Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue > (www.purebredcats.org) > Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) > ___ > Felvtalk mailing list > Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
see, i would say keep them together, because they've probably already been as exposed as they're gonna be, and if mom is negative, it means their exposure is probably from great-aunt tabby, the neighborhood nursemaid. we don't really know for sure how FeLV works in kittens who don't get it from their moms, nor if a mom who is negative after birth was positive in early pregnancy but passed it out of her system while pregnant, or if she DID do that, if maybe she passed some of her strong-enough-to-do-that immunities on to the babies! mom's being negative, tho, is a very good sign for the strength of the genetic side of things. and with four negatives already, you may just have come in on the tail end of the exposure curve on that one (yes, i DO tend to be more optimistic, because when only 30% of cats who test positive remain infected, and vaccinated cats who are really negative don't ever seem to get the virus even when in close proximity with other cats, well, i am nowhere near as frightened of the CONTAGION element of this virus than i used to be. the results of it, when activated? that's a different story altogether. MC -- Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
My vet said to keep them together, that's what I did. I kinda figured they should be separate, but my vet doesn't seem real concerned since Mom tested negative. The way she put it was that right now, anyway, we have 4 negatives and a positive. Apparently, because they are only 8 weeks old, if mom is indeed negative, they would have been exposed at about 3-4 weeks old and it would be unlikely that mom would have let any other cats that close to them. (this is a litter I found in my alley) Any thoughts? "--- On Sun, 11/2/08, catatonya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: catatonya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > Date: Sunday, November 2, 2008, 6:51 PM > my opinion would be leave them together. they've already > been together. the ones that are negative may have been > positive and fought it off. if so they are probably now > immune. > t > > Sally Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My two cents... even though they were all exposed > equally. I would keep them > apart. Repeated exposure is needed for infection to occur. > So even though > they are not positive now it could still happen. If you get > to the point > where the negative kitens are still negative after a few > months and have had > their vaccines you may be able to mix them then. For now I > would separate. > IMHO > > Sally(in VA) > > > On 10/29/08, SALLY NORDSTROM wrote: > > > > Ok, guys, now I need more help! I picked the kittens > up tonight and after > > I got home, I saw that only one tested positive. Can > the other kittens be > > with her? Even though they tested negative, is the > Humane Society worried > > that the others will eventually test positive? I > don't understand any of > > this! > > > > --- On Wed, 10/29/08, MacKenzie, Kerry N. > > wrote: > > > > > From: MacKenzie, Kerry N. > > > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in > tests positive > > > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > > > Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 4:29 PM > > > Sally, I personally would not vaccinate a > positive cat. See > > > Jean Dodds' > > > and Charles Loop's (both vets) views here. > (The > > > paragraph below is taken > > > from the website.) Kerry M. > > > > > > http://www.newsagepress.com/protectyourpet.html > > > > > > >>>All packages of vaccinations carry > warnings > > > that they should be > > > injected only in healthy animals. In the case of > cats, > > > vaccine > > > manufacturers advise against vaccinating pregnant > or > > > nursing cats. > > > However, many pets are not healthy when > vaccinated although > > > they might > > > not have outward signs of health problems. > Charles Loops, > > > DVM, a > > > holistic veterinarian from Pittsboro, North > Carolina, notes > > > that > > > "chemically killed viruses or bacteria are > injected > > > directly into the > > > blood stream, which is an unnatural route of > > > infection." (7) This causes > > > the animal's antibodies to attempt to fight > off the > > > offending virus > > > molecules and render them harmless. If the > animal's > > > immune system is too > > > weakened, he or she cannot fight off these > viruses and can > > > develop a > > > reaction to the vaccine. Even small amounts of a > virus that > > > is > > > introduced through a vaccination may be too much > for sick > > > animals to > > > fight off. They then may fall ill from the very > disease to > > > which they > > > have been vaccinated.<<< > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of > > > SALLY > > > NORDSTROM > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:59 PM > > > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > > > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in > tests > > > positive > > > > > > Another question. My kittens tested positive with > the > > > ELISA test. May > > > they have their vaccines? Mom gets tested Friday. > If > > > positive, may she > > > have her vaccines? May she be spayed? > > > > > > > > > _ > > > >
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
my opinion would be leave them together. they've already been together. the ones that are negative may have been positive and fought it off. if so they are probably now immune. t Sally Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: My two cents... even though they were all exposed equally. I would keep them apart. Repeated exposure is needed for infection to occur. So even though they are not positive now it could still happen. If you get to the point where the negative kitens are still negative after a few months and have had their vaccines you may be able to mix them then. For now I would separate. IMHO Sally(in VA) On 10/29/08, SALLY NORDSTROM wrote: > > Ok, guys, now I need more help! I picked the kittens up tonight and after > I got home, I saw that only one tested positive. Can the other kittens be > with her? Even though they tested negative, is the Humane Society worried > that the others will eventually test positive? I don't understand any of > this! > > --- On Wed, 10/29/08, MacKenzie, Kerry N. > wrote: > > > From: MacKenzie, Kerry N. > > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive > > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > > Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 4:29 PM > > Sally, I personally would not vaccinate a positive cat. See > > Jean Dodds' > > and Charles Loop's (both vets) views here. (The > > paragraph below is taken > > from the website.) Kerry M. > > > > http://www.newsagepress.com/protectyourpet.html > > > > >>>All packages of vaccinations carry warnings > > that they should be > > injected only in healthy animals. In the case of cats, > > vaccine > > manufacturers advise against vaccinating pregnant or > > nursing cats. > > However, many pets are not healthy when vaccinated although > > they might > > not have outward signs of health problems. Charles Loops, > > DVM, a > > holistic veterinarian from Pittsboro, North Carolina, notes > > that > > "chemically killed viruses or bacteria are injected > > directly into the > > blood stream, which is an unnatural route of > > infection." (7) This causes > > the animal's antibodies to attempt to fight off the > > offending virus > > molecules and render them harmless. If the animal's > > immune system is too > > weakened, he or she cannot fight off these viruses and can > > develop a > > reaction to the vaccine. Even small amounts of a virus that > > is > > introduced through a vaccination may be too much for sick > > animals to > > fight off. They then may fall ill from the very disease to > > which they > > have been vaccinated.<<< > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > > SALLY > > NORDSTROM > > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:59 PM > > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests > > positive > > > > Another question. My kittens tested positive with the > > ELISA test. May > > they have their vaccines? Mom gets tested Friday. If > > positive, may she > > have her vaccines? May she be spayed? > > > > > _ > > > > IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any tax advice expressed above by > > Mayer Brown LLP was not intended or written to be used, and > > cannot be used, by any taxpayer to avoid U.S. federal tax > > penalties. If such advice was written or used to support the > > promotion or marketing of the matter addressed above, then > > each offeree should seek advice from an independent tax > > advisor. > > This email and any files transmitted with it are intended > > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they > > are addressed. If you have received this email in error > > please notify the system manager. If you are not the named > > addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy > > this e-mail. > > > > ___ > > Felvtalk mailing list > > Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > > http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org > > ___ > Felvtalk mailing list > Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org > -- Sally, Eric (not a cat),Junior(angel), Tiny(angel) Fluffy(soulmate angel), Speedy, Grey and White, Ittle Bitty, Little Black, Lily, Daisy, Pewter, Junior Junior (newest) I call him JJ , Silver, and Spike Please Visit my Message board for some pictures. You are welcome to sign up. http://www.k6az.com/ki4spk/index.php?sid=c57c00cf5804ef13853ed6e77a68eed3 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
when you get info on these courses, let me know, would like to try them myself. only was to arm yourself is to learn what you are up against. dorlis MaryChristine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > i just reread this--a bone marrow BIOPSY?? and actually, i'd like to see > where something has said that an ELISA can tell what stage of FeLV the kitty > is in. since all it tests for is ANTIGENS, not even antibodies, an ELISA > shouldn't be able to tell anything about whether or not the cat is even > infected! > > this is why it's so confusing. the PROFESSIONALS don't understand the > mechanisms, and so we're left to muddle through. > > i DO know, from a veterinarian's blog, that doing ELISA's wrong (like not > snapping them on a horizontal surface, not checking them EXACTLY at the > right time, etc) are one of the self-reported top-ten mistakes that vets > make. (it's from a vet's blog; if you go to petconnection.com, i think that > christy has a link to the blog.. argh.) > > i was just told that are some good on-line courses in immunology and > virology, and when i get moved and settled, i am GOING to take one so that i > know more of what i'm talking about. > > MC > > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Brenda Waterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > I recently took in a stray cat that had been hanging around my neighborhood > > for some time. He's such a nice boy and I had been feeding him for a few > > months before I took him in. What made me take him in was he became very > > sick with an upper respiratory infection and I had just felt so bad because > > the mucous that was coming from his nose was green, not too mention he was > > having a hard time breathing. I took him to my Vet who said he was a very > > sick kitty, he was close to pneumonia treated him with antibiotics and sent > > us home. I was to follow up with vaccinations and a neuter. He did finish > > his course of antibiotics, and days after I went on a family vacation for 10 > > days. My pet sitter stopped by daily to feed my animals, and walk the dogs. > > I received a call from the pet sitter stating she was sorry but the cat > > (Spazzy) had ran past her when she was taking the dogs out. I told her not > > to worry just try calling him and he should come back. Well that went > > on for days and no Spazzy. When I finally got home from vacation I was > > worried about him because he had been gone for about a week, I looked around > > the neighborhood but couldn't find him. Well about a month and a half had > > passed one morning while I was heading out the door to work, he was sitting > > at my back door. I was happy to see him, but was concerned because it seemed > > his upper respiratory infection was back. I brought him in the house, feed > > and watered him and off to work I went. I called my Vet who was booked for > > the weekend and couldn't see him until Monday. I was too concerned to wait > > so I figured it would be best to see a different Vet. Well Mr. Houdini as I > > like to call him (Spazzy) had gotten out. I was heartbroken and worried > > because he was sick . I again searched the neighborhood for him but had no > > luck at finding him. About a week had passed and I spotted him while I was > > walking my dogs. I was able to grab him, brought him back home and > > called the Vet. I took him in the following morning but seen a different > > Vet at the practice. Dr. McGinn had said he was sick but she wanted to check > > for Feline Leukemia because where he was treated not that long ago chances > > are he probably did have it. Not too mention he also had ulcers in his mouth > > which she stated is common for cats with feline L. Well those 10 minutes > > were very long just waiting, I hoped and prayed it was negative but it > > turned out he was positive. He was seen 10/13/08 was treated with Amoxi > > drops, twice a day until gone. Initially he seemed to be getting better, but > > a week and a half after I noticed he was sneezing but this time no mucous > > was visible just blood. I called the Vet's office once they opened, I had > > explained what was going on and was told Dr. McGinn would call me back by > > the end of the day. She did return my call and said she's changing his > > antibiotic to something stronger. She put him on Clavimox drops twice a day > > until gone. She also stated there are new meds for cats with feline L. but > > she would need to research it more before she would start using it at her > > practice. Have any of you heard of or maybe your cat is currently using this > > new medication? I guess it helps build the immune system. He started the > > Clavimox drop Saturday 10/26/08 and he seems to be doing better now, no > > drainage from his eyes, no sneezing blood, but still sounds very stuffy. > > Have any of you experienced these types of symptoms with your cats? He's > > gaining weight and thriving but from my understanding they can take a turn > > for the worse
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
It's a personal decision, Brenda, but ultimately you need to have a vet you trust and have confidence in. >From what you've said about this vet, she doesn't meet the standard. Also, run >as fast as you can from any vet whose first suggestion on hearing "FeLV" is >euthanization. My vet had only ever dealt with one FeLV cat in the past (and I think the owner wanted euthanization--I can't be sure); but he jumped into top gear when he realized that I wanted to do everything I could to help my sick FeLV cat. He quickly did his research, and also asked me to send any new info I found on the felv website! Another vet in the same clinic--I couldn't always see my vet in an emergency--was cut from the same cloth, and although e.g. she had never used immunoregulin, she was keen to learn about it and work with me to try to save one of mine who had become symptomatic (non-regenerative anemia, in this case--there are several ways in which FeLV cats typically succumb. So you need someone who demonstrates that s/he's both highly competent and enthusiastic about working with you to do the best for Spazzy. I would not worry about checking blood counts as a matter of course. The important thing is to be on the lookout for abnormal behavior. For example, if Spazzy were to stop eating. Or begin eating his litter (a sign of anemia). Or become withdrawn---hiding, or turning his back on the room for prolonged periods. Or no longer interested in playing. Cats sleep a lot anyway---has he begun sleeping for an abnormal amount of time? What exactly makes you think he's not feeling well--can you be specific? Keep giving him those cuddles! Kerry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda Waterson Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:06 PM To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive Kerry, THANK YOU SO MUCH!! I appreciate your kind words and input I now feel hopeful! I will try the Vita- Mineral mix recipe. I don't believe Spazzy has cancer although the Vet hasn't done any further testing. That was one of my first questions to the Vet ...isn't this like cancer? And she said no it's like AIDS in a person, it weakens the immune system. She said it's not the disease that will kill him it will be the leukemia. I agree with you, I feel at this point it would be worth looking for a new Vet for Spazzy one who is familiar with feline leukemia. Do you think I should call around and ask how familiar they are or how many cats they treat yearly with this immune deficiency? I will try my best to make him as happy as I possibly can, he does seem happy to be loved, and in a warm home not too mention, but I notice he sleeps allot. Is this common? I'm sure he's not feeling very well either. I'm sorry you've lost kitty's to this , my condolenses. Should he be checked every so often for blood counts? _ IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any tax advice expressed above by Mayer Brown LLP was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by any taxpayer to avoid U.S. federal tax penalties. If such advice was written or used to support the promotion or marketing of the matter addressed above, then each offeree should seek advice from an independent tax advisor. This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
Glad you're back MC! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MaryChristine Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 5:03 PM To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive i respectfully disagree. asymptomatic FeLVs are not sick cats. every sanctuary or multi-cat household will gell you that until the virus is activated, FeLVs are just normal cats--they get sick, they get treated, they get well. in sanctuary settings, FeLVs are kept with other FeLVs, in all stages of sickness and health. since FeLV kills through opporunistic infections as well as lymphomas and other manifestations, if the healthy FeLVs in the populations were seriously immune-compromised, each time one of them went into their final battle, all the others would get sick as well and be unable to fight off the onslaughts of new infections. this does not happen. if you have two FeLVs in the house and one becomes ill, why doesn't the other, "sick" cat, immediately succumb? this is another misunderstanding, i truly believe, from vets who haven't bothered to keep up on the research, and/or to adequately educate their patients. let me tell you, however, if you've ever seen a cat die of panleukopenia, you won't ever want it to happen again. there are ALWAYS risks in using ANY drug, and while there have certainly been reactions to vaccines throughout time, the way to counter our over-vaccinated society isn't necessarily to stop doing them at all. a symptomatic cat is sick; it may not have a thing to do with the FeLV, but an asymptomatic cat being sick because it may have FeLV, is like saying that all of us who had chicken pox are sick, because we've got that herpes virus just waiting to break out into herpes. MC (haven't you missed me?) On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 5:29 PM, MacKenzie, Kerry N. < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sally, I personally would not vaccinate a positive cat. See Jean Dodds' > and Charles Loop's (both vets) views here. (The paragraph below is taken > from the website.) Kerry M. > > http://www.newsagepress.com/protectyourpet.html > > >>>All packages of vaccinations carry warnings that they should be > injected only in healthy animals. In the case of cats, vaccine > manufacturers advise against vaccinating pregnant or nursing cats. > However, many pets are not healthy when vaccinated although they might > not have outward signs of health problems. Charles Loops, DVM, a > holistic veterinarian from Pittsboro, North Carolina, notes that > "chemically killed viruses or bacteria are injected directly into the > blood stream, which is an unnatural route of infection." (7) This causes > the animal's antibodies to attempt to fight off the offending virus > molecules and render them harmless. If the animal's immune system is too > weakened, he or she cannot fight off these viruses and can develop a > reaction to the vaccine. Even small amounts of a virus that is > introduced through a vaccination may be too much for sick animals to > fight off. They then may fall ill from the very disease to which they > have been vaccinated.<<< > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of SALLY > NORDSTROM > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:59 PM > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive > > Another question. My kittens tested positive with the ELISA test. May > they have their vaccines? Mom gets tested Friday. If positive, may she > have her vaccines? May she be spayed? > > > _ > > IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any tax advice expressed above by Mayer Brown LLP > was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by any taxpayer > to avoid U.S. federal tax penalties. If such advice was written or used to > support the promotion or marketing of the matter addressed above, then each > offeree should seek advice from an independent tax advisor. > This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the > use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have > received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are > not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this > e-mail. > > ___ > Felvtalk mailing list > Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org > -- Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Mem
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
Kerry, THANK YOU SO MUCH!! I appreciate your kind words and input I now feel hopeful! I will try the Vita- Mineral mix recipe. I don't believe Spazzy has cancer although the Vet hasn't done any further testing. That was one of my first questions to the Vet ...isn't this like cancer? And she said no it's like AIDS in a person, it weakens the immune system. She said it's not the disease that will kill him it will be the leukemia. I agree with you, I feel at this point it would be worth looking for a new Vet for Spazzy one who is familiar with feline leukemia. Do you think I should call around and ask how familiar they are or how many cats they treat yearly with this immune deficiency? I will try my best to make him as happy as I possibly can, he does seem happy to be loved, and in a warm home not too mention, but I notice he sleeps allot. Is this common? I'm sure he's not feeling very well either. I'm sorry you've lost kitty's to this , my condolenses. Should he be checked every so often for blood counts? From: "MacKenzie, Kerry N." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 4:16:29 PM Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive Brenda, You're an angel for opening your heart and home to Spazzy. Thank you on behalf of all homeless kitties, and particularly FeLV kitts.. You've come to the right place for info. My first advice would be to find an informed, FeLV-competent vet. While your vet sounds nice, nice won't help Spazzy if she's uninformed about FeLV. And it's evident from your email that you are better informed than your vet---definitely do not allow her to vaccinate Spazzy. Also, keep Spazzy indoors. It stops him from spreading the FeLV and prevents him from coming into contact with cats that may pass on other illnesses to him. As you already learned, the most important goal is to do everything possible to help his immune system. In my opinion, if a cat is enjoying life--alert, playing, eating, enjoying cuddles etc--there is every reason to help him continue to do so. To that end, buy the highest quality cat food you can afford--ideally, one without by-products, additives or preservatives. (Last time I looked, Iams didn't measure up). Add 500mg L-Lysine--grind it to a powder--to his food morning and night.. Add a teaspoon of Anitra Frazier's vita-mineral-mix recipe twice a day. (See recipe below.) Wholefoods or a health store should have all the ingredients, and you can make enough at one time to keep you going for weeks. And provide as stress-free an environment as you can---lots of attention, cuddles and care goes a long way to boosting the immune system. Some cats will throw off the virus--one of my 5 FeLV cats is now negative. (The others succumbed around the age of 2.) The test your vet likely means is an IFA test, to find out if the FeLV is in the bone marrow. Once in the bone marrow, the FeLV is confirmed, and won't be thrown off. Ask her what medication she is referring to--feline interferon? Immunoregulin? Here's the Vita-Mineral Mix recipe. Into the wet food, morning and night, I mix: 1 tsp Vita-Mineral Mix which is made up of: 1 1/2 cups yeast powder (brewer's yeast, nutritional yeast or tarula). (I use nutritional yeast.) 1/4 cup kelp powder or 1/4 cup mixed trace mineral powder (I found kelp first, so I use that) 1 cup lecithin granules 2 cups wheat bran 2 cups bonemeal. Here's another excerpt from the same book---The New Natural Cat--A Complete Guide for Finicky Owners, by Anitra Frazier-- it's in the Feline Leukemia section on pages 326/327): "When a positive cat---one carrying the virus--comes into contact with a negative cat--one not carrying the virus--the negative, but exposed cat may: *not become affected in any way; *become infected (positive), develop immunity, and revert again to being negative; *become positive, but not become ill and remain positive--thus becoming a new carrier of the virus; *become positive and develop lymphosarcoma, leukemia, or other cancer; or *become positive and be ill from the virus infection, much like flu; and then recover and remain positive or become negative. A positive cat who has not developed cancer can be tested again in three months. If he has been treated by an experienced veterinary homeopath and put on a high-quality diet designed to build general health and strengthen the immune system, chances are good that he will have reverted to negative. "(my emphasis) You will get lots more great advice here. Bless you for loving and looking out for Snazzy. Kerry M. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda Waterson Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 2:13 PM To: felvtalk@felineleuke
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
i just reread this--a bone marrow BIOPSY?? and actually, i'd like to see where something has said that an ELISA can tell what stage of FeLV the kitty is in. since all it tests for is ANTIGENS, not even antibodies, an ELISA shouldn't be able to tell anything about whether or not the cat is even infected! this is why it's so confusing. the PROFESSIONALS don't understand the mechanisms, and so we're left to muddle through. i DO know, from a veterinarian's blog, that doing ELISA's wrong (like not snapping them on a horizontal surface, not checking them EXACTLY at the right time, etc) are one of the self-reported top-ten mistakes that vets make. (it's from a vet's blog; if you go to petconnection.com, i think that christy has a link to the blog.. argh.) i was just told that are some good on-line courses in immunology and virology, and when i get moved and settled, i am GOING to take one so that i know more of what i'm talking about. MC On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Brenda Waterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > Hello, > > I recently took in a stray cat that had been hanging around my neighborhood > for some time. He's such a nice boy and I had been feeding him for a few > months before I took him in. What made me take him in was he became very > sick with an upper respiratory infection and I had just felt so bad because > the mucous that was coming from his nose was green, not too mention he was > having a hard time breathing. I took him to my Vet who said he was a very > sick kitty, he was close to pneumonia treated him with antibiotics and sent > us home. I was to follow up with vaccinations and a neuter. He did finish > his course of antibiotics, and days after I went on a family vacation for 10 > days. My pet sitter stopped by daily to feed my animals, and walk the dogs. > I received a call from the pet sitter stating she was sorry but the cat > (Spazzy) had ran past her when she was taking the dogs out. I told her not > to worry just try calling him and he should come back. Well that went > on for days and no Spazzy. When I finally got home from vacation I was > worried about him because he had been gone for about a week, I looked around > the neighborhood but couldn't find him. Well about a month and a half had > passed one morning while I was heading out the door to work, he was sitting > at my back door. I was happy to see him, but was concerned because it seemed > his upper respiratory infection was back. I brought him in the house, feed > and watered him and off to work I went. I called my Vet who was booked for > the weekend and couldn't see him until Monday. I was too concerned to wait > so I figured it would be best to see a different Vet. Well Mr. Houdini as I > like to call him (Spazzy) had gotten out. I was heartbroken and worried > because he was sick . I again searched the neighborhood for him but had no > luck at finding him. About a week had passed and I spotted him while I was > walking my dogs. I was able to grab him, brought him back home and > called the Vet. I took him in the following morning but seen a different > Vet at the practice. Dr. McGinn had said he was sick but she wanted to check > for Feline Leukemia because where he was treated not that long ago chances > are he probably did have it. Not too mention he also had ulcers in his mouth > which she stated is common for cats with feline L. Well those 10 minutes > were very long just waiting, I hoped and prayed it was negative but it > turned out he was positive. He was seen 10/13/08 was treated with Amoxi > drops, twice a day until gone. Initially he seemed to be getting better, but > a week and a half after I noticed he was sneezing but this time no mucous > was visible just blood. I called the Vet's office once they opened, I had > explained what was going on and was told Dr. McGinn would call me back by > the end of the day. She did return my call and said she's changing his > antibiotic to something stronger. She put him on Clavimox drops twice a day > until gone. She also stated there are new meds for cats with feline L. but > she would need to research it more before she would start using it at her > practice. Have any of you heard of or maybe your cat is currently using this > new medication? I guess it helps build the immune system. He started the > Clavimox drop Saturday 10/26/08 and he seems to be doing better now, no > drainage from his eyes, no sneezing blood, but still sounds very stuffy. > Have any of you experienced these types of symptoms with your cats? He's > gaining weight and thriving but from my understanding they can take a turn > for the worse at any given time. Also once he's better she wants him to get > his vaccines, however with a compromised immune system will the vaccine's > harm him? Dr. McGinn seems to be a very caring Vet, but she doesn't seem to > know too much about Feline L. I have done some research on the Internet and > found that the Elisa test can sometimes produce a
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
Right or wrong I got the rabies vaccine for the presumed FeLV+ feral I TNR'd. I am raising her litter of 4. All tested positive once, All were de-wormed, received both distemper combo vaccines and their rabies shot. All four are fat and happy. Sharyl --- On Wed, 10/29/08, SALLY NORDSTROM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From: SALLY NORDSTROM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 4:58 PM Another question. My kittens tested positive with the ELISA test. May they have their vaccines? Mom gets tested Friday. If positive, may she have her vaccines? May she be spayed? --- On Wed, 10/29/08, MacKenzie, Kerry N. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: MacKenzie, Kerry N. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 3:16 PM > Brenda, > You're an angel for opening your heart and home to > Spazzy. Thank you on behalf of all homeless kitties, and > particularly FeLV kitts. > You've come to the right place for info. > My first advice would be to find an informed, > FeLV-competent vet. While your vet sounds nice, nice > won't help Spazzy if she's uninformed about FeLV. > And it's evident from your email that you are better > informed than your vet---definitely do not allow her to > vaccinate Spazzy. Also, keep Spazzy indoors. It stops him > from spreading the FeLV and prevents him from coming into > contact with cats that may pass on other illnesses to him. > As you already learned, the most important goal is to do > everything possible to help his immune system. In my > opinion, if a cat is enjoying life--alert, playing, eating, > enjoying cuddles etc--there is every reason to help him > continue to do so. > To that end, buy the highest quality cat food you can > afford--ideally, one without by-products, additives or > preservatives. (Last time I looked, Iams didn't measure > up). Add 500mg L-Lysine--grind it to a powder--to his food > morning and night. Add a teaspoon of Anitra Frazier's > vita-mineral-mix recipe twice a day. (See recipe below.) > Wholefoods or a health store should have all the > ingredients, and you can make enough at one time to keep you > going for weeks. And provide as stress-free an environment > as you can---lots of attention, cuddles and care goes a long > way to boosting the immune system. > Some cats will throw off the virus--one of my 5 FeLV cats > is now negative. (The others succumbed around the age of 2.) > The test your vet likely means is an IFA test, to find out > if the FeLV is in the bone marrow. Once in the bone marrow, > the FeLV is confirmed, and won't be thrown off. > Ask her what medication she is referring to--feline > interferon? Immunoregulin? > > Here's the Vita-Mineral Mix recipe. > > Into the wet food, morning and night, I mix: > > 1 tsp Vita-Mineral Mix which is made up of: > > 1 1/2 cups yeast powder (brewer's yeast, nutritional > yeast or tarula). (I use nutritional yeast.) > > 1/4 cup kelp powder or 1/4 cup mixed trace mineral powder > (I found kelp first, so I use that) > > 1 cup lecithin granules > > 2 cups wheat bran > > 2 cups bonemeal. > > Here's another excerpt from the same book---The New > Natural Cat--A Complete Guide for Finicky Owners, by Anitra > Frazier-- it's in the Feline Leukemia section on pages > 326/327): > > "When a positive cat---one carrying the virus--comes > into contact with a negative cat--one not carrying the > virus--the negative, but exposed cat may: > > *not become affected in any way; > *become infected (positive), develop immunity, and revert > again to being negative; > *become positive, but not become ill and remain > positive--thus becoming a new carrier of the virus; > *become positive and develop lymphosarcoma, leukemia, or > other cancer; or > *become positive and be ill from the virus infection, much > like flu; and then recover and remain positive or become > negative. > > A positive cat who has not developed cancer can be tested > again in three months. If he has been treated by an > experienced veterinary homeopath and put on a high-quality > diet designed to build general health and strengthen the > immune system, chances are good that he will have reverted > to negative. "(my emphasis) > > You will get lots more great advice here. Bless you for > loving and looking out for Snazzy. > Kerry M. > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
Hey MC...send me your phone # offline...I need to ask some important questions about a couple of female kittys I want to have spayed...pretty pleeze!Debbie (COL)"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something.And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of God,I will do"(Edward Everett Hale) > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:05:27 -0400> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org> Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive> > this is closer to what i would have said--wait to see if the cat is actually> positive, and then weight the very real risks of NOT vaccinating against the> potential ones of doing so.> > i follow dr dodd's recommendations myself, i just define "sick" differently,> i guess. (tho i'm REALLY not happy about the new protocol for kittens--every> 3-4 weeks of vaccines until they're FOUR MONTHS OLD?? to me, that's WAY> too much..)> > MC> > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Saehwa Kang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> > > Our vet told us to hold off on both shots and spay surgery until the> > final diagnosis. It stresses their systems and makes them weak,> > thereby making it harder for them to fight off the disease...> >> > Sent from my iPhone> >> > On Oct 29, 2008, at 2:29 PM, "MacKenzie, Kerry N." <> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote:> >> > > Sally, I personally would not vaccinate a positive cat. See Jean> > > Dodds'> > > and Charles Loop's (both vets) views here. (The paragraph below is> > > taken> > > from the website.) Kerry M.> > >> > > http://www.newsagepress.com/protectyourpet.html> > >> > >>>> All packages of vaccinations carry warnings that they should be> > > injected only in healthy animals. In the case of cats, vaccine> > > manufacturers advise against vaccinating pregnant or nursing cats.> > > However, many pets are not healthy when vaccinated although they might> > > not have outward signs of health problems. Charles Loops, DVM, a> > > holistic veterinarian from Pittsboro, North Carolina, notes that> > > "chemically killed viruses or bacteria are injected directly into the> > > blood stream, which is an unnatural route of infection." (7) This> > > causes> > > the animal's antibodies to attempt to fight off the offending virus> > > molecules and render them harmless. If the animal's immune system is> > > too> > > weakened, he or she cannot fight off these viruses and can develop a> > > reaction to the vaccine. Even small amounts of a virus that is> > > introduced through a vaccination may be too much for sick animals to> > > fight off. They then may fall ill from the very disease to which they> > > have been vaccinated.<<<> > >> > >> > > -Original Message-> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of SALLY> > > NORDSTROM> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:59 PM> > > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org> > > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive> > >> > > Another question. My kittens tested positive with the ELISA test.> > > May> > > they have their vaccines? Mom gets tested Friday. If positive, may> > > she> > > have her vaccines? May she be spayed?> > >> > >> > _> >> >> > >> > > IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any tax advice expressed above by Mayer> > > Brown LLP was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be> > > used, by any taxpayer to avoid U.S. federal tax penalties. If such> > > advice was written or used to support the promotion or marketing of> > > the matter addressed above, then each offeree should seek advice> > > from an independent tax advisor.> > > This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for> > > the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If> > > you have received this email in error please notify the system> > > manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not> > > disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.> > >> > > ___> > > Felvtalk mailing list> > >
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
My two cents... even though they were all exposed equally. I would keep them apart. Repeated exposure is needed for infection to occur. So even though they are not positive now it could still happen. If you get to the point where the negative kitens are still negative after a few months and have had their vaccines you may be able to mix them then. For now I would separate. IMHO Sally(in VA) On 10/29/08, SALLY NORDSTROM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Ok, guys, now I need more help! I picked the kittens up tonight and after > I got home, I saw that only one tested positive. Can the other kittens be > with her? Even though they tested negative, is the Humane Society worried > that the others will eventually test positive? I don't understand any of > this! > > --- On Wed, 10/29/08, MacKenzie, Kerry N. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > From: MacKenzie, Kerry N. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive > > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > > Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 4:29 PM > > Sally, I personally would not vaccinate a positive cat. See > > Jean Dodds' > > and Charles Loop's (both vets) views here. (The > > paragraph below is taken > > from the website.) Kerry M. > > > > http://www.newsagepress.com/protectyourpet.html > > > > >>>All packages of vaccinations carry warnings > > that they should be > > injected only in healthy animals. In the case of cats, > > vaccine > > manufacturers advise against vaccinating pregnant or > > nursing cats. > > However, many pets are not healthy when vaccinated although > > they might > > not have outward signs of health problems. Charles Loops, > > DVM, a > > holistic veterinarian from Pittsboro, North Carolina, notes > > that > > "chemically killed viruses or bacteria are injected > > directly into the > > blood stream, which is an unnatural route of > > infection." (7) This causes > > the animal's antibodies to attempt to fight off the > > offending virus > > molecules and render them harmless. If the animal's > > immune system is too > > weakened, he or she cannot fight off these viruses and can > > develop a > > reaction to the vaccine. Even small amounts of a virus that > > is > > introduced through a vaccination may be too much for sick > > animals to > > fight off. They then may fall ill from the very disease to > > which they > > have been vaccinated.<<< > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > > SALLY > > NORDSTROM > > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:59 PM > > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests > > positive > > > > Another question. My kittens tested positive with the > > ELISA test. May > > they have their vaccines? Mom gets tested Friday. If > > positive, may she > > have her vaccines? May she be spayed? > > > > > _ > > > > IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any tax advice expressed above by > > Mayer Brown LLP was not intended or written to be used, and > > cannot be used, by any taxpayer to avoid U.S. federal tax > > penalties. If such advice was written or used to support the > > promotion or marketing of the matter addressed above, then > > each offeree should seek advice from an independent tax > > advisor. > > This email and any files transmitted with it are intended > > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they > > are addressed. If you have received this email in error > > please notify the system manager. If you are not the named > > addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy > > this e-mail. > > > > ___ > > Felvtalk mailing list > > Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > > http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org > > ___ > Felvtalk mailing list > Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org > -- Sally, Eric (not a cat),Junior(angel), Tiny(angel) Fluffy(soulmate angel), Speedy, Grey and White, Ittle Bitty, Little Black, Lily, Daisy, Pewter, Junior Junior (newest) I call him JJ , Silver, and Spike Please Visit my Message board for some pictures. You are welcome to sign up. http://www.k6az.com/ki4spk/index.php?sid=c57c00cf5804ef13853ed6e77a68eed3 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
Ok, guys, now I need more help! I picked the kittens up tonight and after I got home, I saw that only one tested positive. Can the other kittens be with her? Even though they tested negative, is the Humane Society worried that the others will eventually test positive? I don't understand any of this! --- On Wed, 10/29/08, MacKenzie, Kerry N. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: MacKenzie, Kerry N. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 4:29 PM > Sally, I personally would not vaccinate a positive cat. See > Jean Dodds' > and Charles Loop's (both vets) views here. (The > paragraph below is taken > from the website.) Kerry M. > > http://www.newsagepress.com/protectyourpet.html > > >>>All packages of vaccinations carry warnings > that they should be > injected only in healthy animals. In the case of cats, > vaccine > manufacturers advise against vaccinating pregnant or > nursing cats. > However, many pets are not healthy when vaccinated although > they might > not have outward signs of health problems. Charles Loops, > DVM, a > holistic veterinarian from Pittsboro, North Carolina, notes > that > "chemically killed viruses or bacteria are injected > directly into the > blood stream, which is an unnatural route of > infection." (7) This causes > the animal's antibodies to attempt to fight off the > offending virus > molecules and render them harmless. If the animal's > immune system is too > weakened, he or she cannot fight off these viruses and can > develop a > reaction to the vaccine. Even small amounts of a virus that > is > introduced through a vaccination may be too much for sick > animals to > fight off. They then may fall ill from the very disease to > which they > have been vaccinated.<<< > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > SALLY > NORDSTROM > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:59 PM > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests > positive > > Another question. My kittens tested positive with the > ELISA test. May > they have their vaccines? Mom gets tested Friday. If > positive, may she > have her vaccines? May she be spayed? > > _ > > IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any tax advice expressed above by > Mayer Brown LLP was not intended or written to be used, and > cannot be used, by any taxpayer to avoid U.S. federal tax > penalties. If such advice was written or used to support the > promotion or marketing of the matter addressed above, then > each offeree should seek advice from an independent tax > advisor. > This email and any files transmitted with it are intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they > are addressed. If you have received this email in error > please notify the system manager. If you are not the named > addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy > this e-mail. > > ___ > Felvtalk mailing list > Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
awww, thanks! MC On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 7:27 PM, Sally Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yes > > Sally(the other one) > > . > > MC > (haven't you missed me?) > > > > > -- > Sally, Eric (not a cat),Junior(angel), Tiny(angel) Fluffy(soulmate angel), > Speedy, Grey and White, Ittle Bitty, Little Black, Lily, Daisy, Pewter, > Junior Junior (newest) I call him JJ , Silver, and Spike Please Visit my > Message board for some pictures. You are welcome to sign up. > > http://www.k6az.com/ki4spk/index.php?sid=c57c00cf5804ef13853ed6e77a68eed3 > ___ > Felvtalk mailing list > Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org > -- Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
Yes Sally(the other one) . MC (haven't you missed me?) -- Sally, Eric (not a cat),Junior(angel), Tiny(angel) Fluffy(soulmate angel), Speedy, Grey and White, Ittle Bitty, Little Black, Lily, Daisy, Pewter, Junior Junior (newest) I call him JJ , Silver, and Spike Please Visit my Message board for some pictures. You are welcome to sign up. http://www.k6az.com/ki4spk/index.php?sid=c57c00cf5804ef13853ed6e77a68eed3 ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
this is closer to what i would have said--wait to see if the cat is actually positive, and then weight the very real risks of NOT vaccinating against the potential ones of doing so. i follow dr dodd's recommendations myself, i just define "sick" differently, i guess. (tho i'm REALLY not happy about the new protocol for kittens--every 3-4 weeks of vaccines until they're FOUR MONTHS OLD?? to me, that's WAY too much..) MC On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Saehwa Kang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Our vet told us to hold off on both shots and spay surgery until the > final diagnosis. It stresses their systems and makes them weak, > thereby making it harder for them to fight off the disease... > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 29, 2008, at 2:29 PM, "MacKenzie, Kerry N." < > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > wrote: > > > Sally, I personally would not vaccinate a positive cat. See Jean > > Dodds' > > and Charles Loop's (both vets) views here. (The paragraph below is > > taken > > from the website.) Kerry M. > > > > http://www.newsagepress.com/protectyourpet.html > > > >>>> All packages of vaccinations carry warnings that they should be > > injected only in healthy animals. In the case of cats, vaccine > > manufacturers advise against vaccinating pregnant or nursing cats. > > However, many pets are not healthy when vaccinated although they might > > not have outward signs of health problems. Charles Loops, DVM, a > > holistic veterinarian from Pittsboro, North Carolina, notes that > > "chemically killed viruses or bacteria are injected directly into the > > blood stream, which is an unnatural route of infection." (7) This > > causes > > the animal's antibodies to attempt to fight off the offending virus > > molecules and render them harmless. If the animal's immune system is > > too > > weakened, he or she cannot fight off these viruses and can develop a > > reaction to the vaccine. Even small amounts of a virus that is > > introduced through a vaccination may be too much for sick animals to > > fight off. They then may fall ill from the very disease to which they > > have been vaccinated.<<< > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of SALLY > > NORDSTROM > > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:59 PM > > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive > > > > Another question. My kittens tested positive with the ELISA test. > > May > > they have their vaccines? Mom gets tested Friday. If positive, may > > she > > have her vaccines? May she be spayed? > > > > > _ > > > > > > IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any tax advice expressed above by Mayer > > Brown LLP was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be > > used, by any taxpayer to avoid U.S. federal tax penalties. If such > > advice was written or used to support the promotion or marketing of > > the matter addressed above, then each offeree should seek advice > > from an independent tax advisor. > > This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for > > the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If > > you have received this email in error please notify the system > > manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not > > disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. > > > > ___ > > Felvtalk mailing list > > Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > > http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org > > ___ > Felvtalk mailing list > Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org > -- Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
i respectfully disagree. asymptomatic FeLVs are not sick cats. every sanctuary or multi-cat household will gell you that until the virus is activated, FeLVs are just normal cats--they get sick, they get treated, they get well. in sanctuary settings, FeLVs are kept with other FeLVs, in all stages of sickness and health. since FeLV kills through opporunistic infections as well as lymphomas and other manifestations, if the healthy FeLVs in the populations were seriously immune-compromised, each time one of them went into their final battle, all the others would get sick as well and be unable to fight off the onslaughts of new infections. this does not happen. if you have two FeLVs in the house and one becomes ill, why doesn't the other, "sick" cat, immediately succumb? this is another misunderstanding, i truly believe, from vets who haven't bothered to keep up on the research, and/or to adequately educate their patients. let me tell you, however, if you've ever seen a cat die of panleukopenia, you won't ever want it to happen again. there are ALWAYS risks in using ANY drug, and while there have certainly been reactions to vaccines throughout time, the way to counter our over-vaccinated society isn't necessarily to stop doing them at all. a symptomatic cat is sick; it may not have a thing to do with the FeLV, but an asymptomatic cat being sick because it may have FeLV, is like saying that all of us who had chicken pox are sick, because we've got that herpes virus just waiting to break out into herpes. MC (haven't you missed me?) On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 5:29 PM, MacKenzie, Kerry N. < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sally, I personally would not vaccinate a positive cat. See Jean Dodds' > and Charles Loop's (both vets) views here. (The paragraph below is taken > from the website.) Kerry M. > > http://www.newsagepress.com/protectyourpet.html > > >>>All packages of vaccinations carry warnings that they should be > injected only in healthy animals. In the case of cats, vaccine > manufacturers advise against vaccinating pregnant or nursing cats. > However, many pets are not healthy when vaccinated although they might > not have outward signs of health problems. Charles Loops, DVM, a > holistic veterinarian from Pittsboro, North Carolina, notes that > "chemically killed viruses or bacteria are injected directly into the > blood stream, which is an unnatural route of infection." (7) This causes > the animal's antibodies to attempt to fight off the offending virus > molecules and render them harmless. If the animal's immune system is too > weakened, he or she cannot fight off these viruses and can develop a > reaction to the vaccine. Even small amounts of a virus that is > introduced through a vaccination may be too much for sick animals to > fight off. They then may fall ill from the very disease to which they > have been vaccinated.<<< > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of SALLY > NORDSTROM > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:59 PM > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive > > Another question. My kittens tested positive with the ELISA test. May > they have their vaccines? Mom gets tested Friday. If positive, may she > have her vaccines? May she be spayed? > > > _ > > IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any tax advice expressed above by Mayer Brown LLP > was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by any taxpayer > to avoid U.S. federal tax penalties. If such advice was written or used to > support the promotion or marketing of the matter addressed above, then each > offeree should seek advice from an independent tax advisor. > This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the > use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have > received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are > not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this > e-mail. > > ___ > Felvtalk mailing list > Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org > -- Spay & Neuter Your Neighbors! Maybe That'll Make The Difference MaryChristine Special-Needs Coordinator, Purebred Cat Breed Rescue (www.purebredcats.org) Member, SCAT (Special-Cat Action Team) ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
Our vet told us to hold off on both shots and spay surgery until the final diagnosis. It stresses their systems and makes them weak, thereby making it harder for them to fight off the disease... Sent from my iPhone On Oct 29, 2008, at 2:29 PM, "MacKenzie, Kerry N." <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > Sally, I personally would not vaccinate a positive cat. See Jean > Dodds' > and Charles Loop's (both vets) views here. (The paragraph below is > taken > from the website.) Kerry M. > > http://www.newsagepress.com/protectyourpet.html > >>>> All packages of vaccinations carry warnings that they should be > injected only in healthy animals. In the case of cats, vaccine > manufacturers advise against vaccinating pregnant or nursing cats. > However, many pets are not healthy when vaccinated although they might > not have outward signs of health problems. Charles Loops, DVM, a > holistic veterinarian from Pittsboro, North Carolina, notes that > "chemically killed viruses or bacteria are injected directly into the > blood stream, which is an unnatural route of infection." (7) This > causes > the animal's antibodies to attempt to fight off the offending virus > molecules and render them harmless. If the animal's immune system is > too > weakened, he or she cannot fight off these viruses and can develop a > reaction to the vaccine. Even small amounts of a virus that is > introduced through a vaccination may be too much for sick animals to > fight off. They then may fall ill from the very disease to which they > have been vaccinated.<<< > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of SALLY > NORDSTROM > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:59 PM > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive > > Another question. My kittens tested positive with the ELISA test. > May > they have their vaccines? Mom gets tested Friday. If positive, may > she > have her vaccines? May she be spayed? > > _ > > IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any tax advice expressed above by Mayer > Brown LLP was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be > used, by any taxpayer to avoid U.S. federal tax penalties. If such > advice was written or used to support the promotion or marketing of > the matter addressed above, then each offeree should seek advice > from an independent tax advisor. > This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for > the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If > you have received this email in error please notify the system > manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not > disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. > > ___ > Felvtalk mailing list > Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
Sally, I personally would not vaccinate a positive cat. See Jean Dodds' and Charles Loop's (both vets) views here. (The paragraph below is taken from the website.) Kerry M. http://www.newsagepress.com/protectyourpet.html >>>All packages of vaccinations carry warnings that they should be injected only in healthy animals. In the case of cats, vaccine manufacturers advise against vaccinating pregnant or nursing cats. However, many pets are not healthy when vaccinated although they might not have outward signs of health problems. Charles Loops, DVM, a holistic veterinarian from Pittsboro, North Carolina, notes that "chemically killed viruses or bacteria are injected directly into the blood stream, which is an unnatural route of infection." (7) This causes the animal's antibodies to attempt to fight off the offending virus molecules and render them harmless. If the animal's immune system is too weakened, he or she cannot fight off these viruses and can develop a reaction to the vaccine. Even small amounts of a virus that is introduced through a vaccination may be too much for sick animals to fight off. They then may fall ill from the very disease to which they have been vaccinated.<<< -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of SALLY NORDSTROM Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 3:59 PM To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive Another question. My kittens tested positive with the ELISA test. May they have their vaccines? Mom gets tested Friday. If positive, may she have her vaccines? May she be spayed? _ IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE. Any tax advice expressed above by Mayer Brown LLP was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by any taxpayer to avoid U.S. federal tax penalties. If such advice was written or used to support the promotion or marketing of the matter addressed above, then each offeree should seek advice from an independent tax advisor. This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. ___ Felvtalk mailing list Felvtalk@felineleukemia.org http://felineleukemia.org/mailman/listinfo/felvtalk_felineleukemia.org
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
Another question. My kittens tested positive with the ELISA test. May they have their vaccines? Mom gets tested Friday. If positive, may she have her vaccines? May she be spayed? --- On Wed, 10/29/08, MacKenzie, Kerry N. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: MacKenzie, Kerry N. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > Date: Wednesday, October 29, 2008, 3:16 PM > Brenda, > You're an angel for opening your heart and home to > Spazzy. Thank you on behalf of all homeless kitties, and > particularly FeLV kitts. > You've come to the right place for info. > My first advice would be to find an informed, > FeLV-competent vet. While your vet sounds nice, nice > won't help Spazzy if she's uninformed about FeLV. > And it's evident from your email that you are better > informed than your vet---definitely do not allow her to > vaccinate Spazzy. Also, keep Spazzy indoors. It stops him > from spreading the FeLV and prevents him from coming into > contact with cats that may pass on other illnesses to him. > As you already learned, the most important goal is to do > everything possible to help his immune system. In my > opinion, if a cat is enjoying life--alert, playing, eating, > enjoying cuddles etc--there is every reason to help him > continue to do so. > To that end, buy the highest quality cat food you can > afford--ideally, one without by-products, additives or > preservatives. (Last time I looked, Iams didn't measure > up). Add 500mg L-Lysine--grind it to a powder--to his food > morning and night. Add a teaspoon of Anitra Frazier's > vita-mineral-mix recipe twice a day. (See recipe below.) > Wholefoods or a health store should have all the > ingredients, and you can make enough at one time to keep you > going for weeks. And provide as stress-free an environment > as you can---lots of attention, cuddles and care goes a long > way to boosting the immune system. > Some cats will throw off the virus--one of my 5 FeLV cats > is now negative. (The others succumbed around the age of 2.) > The test your vet likely means is an IFA test, to find out > if the FeLV is in the bone marrow. Once in the bone marrow, > the FeLV is confirmed, and won't be thrown off. > Ask her what medication she is referring to--feline > interferon? Immunoregulin? > > Here's the Vita-Mineral Mix recipe. > > Into the wet food, morning and night, I mix: > > 1 tsp Vita-Mineral Mix which is made up of: > > 1 1/2 cups yeast powder (brewer's yeast, nutritional > yeast or tarula). (I use nutritional yeast.) > > 1/4 cup kelp powder or 1/4 cup mixed trace mineral powder > (I found kelp first, so I use that) > > 1 cup lecithin granules > > 2 cups wheat bran > > 2 cups bonemeal. > > Here's another excerpt from the same book---The New > Natural Cat--A Complete Guide for Finicky Owners, by Anitra > Frazier-- it's in the Feline Leukemia section on pages > 326/327): > > "When a positive cat---one carrying the virus--comes > into contact with a negative cat--one not carrying the > virus--the negative, but exposed cat may: > > *not become affected in any way; > *become infected (positive), develop immunity, and revert > again to being negative; > *become positive, but not become ill and remain > positive--thus becoming a new carrier of the virus; > *become positive and develop lymphosarcoma, leukemia, or > other cancer; or > *become positive and be ill from the virus infection, much > like flu; and then recover and remain positive or become > negative. > > A positive cat who has not developed cancer can be tested > again in three months. If he has been treated by an > experienced veterinary homeopath and put on a high-quality > diet designed to build general health and strengthen the > immune system, chances are good that he will have reverted > to negative. "(my emphasis) > > You will get lots more great advice here. Bless you for > loving and looking out for Snazzy. > Kerry M. > > > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Brenda Waterson > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 2:13 PM > To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org > Subject: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive > > Hello, > > I recently took in a stray cat that had been hanging around > my neighborhood for some time. He's such a nice boy and > I had been feeding him for a few months before I took him > in. What made me take him in was he became very sick with an > upper respiratory infection and I had just felt so bad >
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
Welcome, Brenda! Sorry Spazzy is so ill, but you've come to the right place for info. You will be getting a lot of it in a very short time, but just to start out, your vet is way wrong about the bone marrow biopsy. Yikes! What you need to get is an IFA test. It's much more accurate than the test that would have been done in that long ten minutes -- it's a blood test that's sent to a lab and IT is the way to find out if the disease is in the marrow. You probably need, and I know this can be daunting, to find a vet who is more knowledgeable about FeLV. If yours is willing to learn, that's good but with an already sick kitty you probably need someone who's up to speed now. Here's the mini-drill: lots of love, keep stress levels low, give good food (Iams is pretty good, but there are better ones you can get at the pet shop) with meat as the FIRST ingredient in the list and low on grains. You can give the supplement L-Lysine (from the health food store, not the human stuff from the drugstore, which has bad additives). Your vet may be talking about immunoregulin, which has been a big help to some kitties on this list. Probably you need to reassess Spazzy's condition once the runnies are under control. If he bounces back from that after the Clav, you'll have a better idea of his overall health. It may be that it's just a passing cold not directly related to the FeLV, in which case he may be around for quite a while. Or it could be that he's gotten to the really-sick stage and there may not be much you can do. (That's how it was with my Patches, a stray we brought in who crashed within 6 weeks). In that case, by bringing him in you are giving him the great kindness of a safe and loving place to be for however long rather than out on his own. Bless you for caring for him. Diane R. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda Waterson Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 2:13 PM To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive Hello, I recently took in a stray cat that had been hanging around my neighborhood for some time. He's such a nice boy and I had been feeding him for a few months before I took him in. What made me take him in was he became very sick with an upper respiratory infection and I had just felt so bad because the mucous that was coming from his nose was green, not too mention he was having a hard time breathing. I took him to my Vet who said he was a very sick kitty, he was close to pneumonia treated him with antibiotics and sent us home. I was to follow up with vaccinations and a neuter. He did finish his course of antibiotics, and days after I went on a family vacation for 10 days. My pet sitter stopped by daily to feed my animals, and walk the dogs. I received a call from the pet sitter stating she was sorry but the cat (Spazzy) had ran past her when she was taking the dogs out. I told her not to worry just try calling him and he should come back. Well that went on for days and no Spazzy. When I finally got home from vacation I was worried about him because he had been gone for about a week, I looked around the neighborhood but couldn't find him. Well about a month and a half had passed one morning while I was heading out the door to work, he was sitting at my back door. I was happy to see him, but was concerned because it seemed his upper respiratory infection was back. I brought him in the house, feed and watered him and off to work I went. I called my Vet who was booked for the weekend and couldn't see him until Monday. I was too concerned to wait so I figured it would be best to see a different Vet. Well Mr. Houdini as I like to call him (Spazzy) had gotten out. I was heartbroken and worried because he was sick . I again searched the neighborhood for him but had no luck at finding him. About a week had passed and I spotted him while I was walking my dogs. I was able to grab him, brought him back home and called the Vet. I took him in the following morning but seen a different Vet at the practice. Dr. McGinn had said he was sick but she wanted to check for Feline Leukemia because where he was treated not that long ago chances are he probably did have it. Not too mention he also had ulcers in his mouth which she stated is common for cats with feline L. Well those 10 minutes were very long just waiting, I hoped and prayed it was negative but it turned out he was positive. He was seen 10/13/08 was treated with Amoxi drops, twice a day until gone. Initially he seemed to be getting better, but a week and a half after I noticed he was sneezing but this time no mucous was visible just blood. I called the Vet's office once they opened, I had explained what was going on and was told Dr. McGinn would call me back by the end of the day. She did return my call and said she's changing his antibiotic to something stronger. She put him o
Re: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive
Brenda, You're an angel for opening your heart and home to Spazzy. Thank you on behalf of all homeless kitties, and particularly FeLV kitts. You've come to the right place for info. My first advice would be to find an informed, FeLV-competent vet. While your vet sounds nice, nice won't help Spazzy if she's uninformed about FeLV. And it's evident from your email that you are better informed than your vet---definitely do not allow her to vaccinate Spazzy. Also, keep Spazzy indoors. It stops him from spreading the FeLV and prevents him from coming into contact with cats that may pass on other illnesses to him. As you already learned, the most important goal is to do everything possible to help his immune system. In my opinion, if a cat is enjoying life--alert, playing, eating, enjoying cuddles etc--there is every reason to help him continue to do so. To that end, buy the highest quality cat food you can afford--ideally, one without by-products, additives or preservatives. (Last time I looked, Iams didn't measure up). Add 500mg L-Lysine--grind it to a powder--to his food morning and night. Add a teaspoon of Anitra Frazier's vita-mineral-mix recipe twice a day. (See recipe below.) Wholefoods or a health store should have all the ingredients, and you can make enough at one time to keep you going for weeks. And provide as stress-free an environment as you can---lots of attention, cuddles and care goes a long way to boosting the immune system. Some cats will throw off the virus--one of my 5 FeLV cats is now negative. (The others succumbed around the age of 2.) The test your vet likely means is an IFA test, to find out if the FeLV is in the bone marrow. Once in the bone marrow, the FeLV is confirmed, and won't be thrown off. Ask her what medication she is referring to--feline interferon? Immunoregulin? Here's the Vita-Mineral Mix recipe. Into the wet food, morning and night, I mix: 1 tsp Vita-Mineral Mix which is made up of: 1 1/2 cups yeast powder (brewer's yeast, nutritional yeast or tarula). (I use nutritional yeast.) 1/4 cup kelp powder or 1/4 cup mixed trace mineral powder (I found kelp first, so I use that) 1 cup lecithin granules 2 cups wheat bran 2 cups bonemeal. Here's another excerpt from the same book---The New Natural Cat--A Complete Guide for Finicky Owners, by Anitra Frazier-- it's in the Feline Leukemia section on pages 326/327): "When a positive cat---one carrying the virus--comes into contact with a negative cat--one not carrying the virus--the negative, but exposed cat may: *not become affected in any way; *become infected (positive), develop immunity, and revert again to being negative; *become positive, but not become ill and remain positive--thus becoming a new carrier of the virus; *become positive and develop lymphosarcoma, leukemia, or other cancer; or *become positive and be ill from the virus infection, much like flu; and then recover and remain positive or become negative. A positive cat who has not developed cancer can be tested again in three months. If he has been treated by an experienced veterinary homeopath and put on a high-quality diet designed to build general health and strengthen the immune system, chances are good that he will have reverted to negative. "(my emphasis) You will get lots more great advice here. Bless you for loving and looking out for Snazzy. Kerry M. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda Waterson Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 2:13 PM To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: [Felvtalk] Stray Kitty I took in tests positive Hello, I recently took in a stray cat that had been hanging around my neighborhood for some time. He's such a nice boy and I had been feeding him for a few months before I took him in. What made me take him in was he became very sick with an upper respiratory infection and I had just felt so bad because the mucous that was coming from his nose was green, not too mention he was having a hard time breathing. I took him to my Vet who said he was a very sick kitty, he was close to pneumonia treated him with antibiotics and sent us home. I was to follow up with vaccinations and a neuter. He did finish his course of antibiotics, and days after I went on a family vacation for 10 days. My pet sitter stopped by daily to feed my animals, and walk the dogs. I received a call from the pet sitter stating she was sorry but the cat (Spazzy) had ran past her when she was taking the dogs out. I told her not to worry just try calling him and he should come back. Well that went on for days and no Spazzy. When I finally got home from vacation I was worried about him because he had been gone for about a week, I looked around the neighborhood but couldn't find him. Well about a month and a half had passed one morning while I was heading out the door to work, he was sitting at my back door. I was happy to see him, but was conc
