RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
At 02:10 AM 5/3/2007, Owain Sutton wrote: Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. Of course: I-GOR STRA-VIN-SKY IS A SON OF A B is how we learned it. g Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] printer frustration - Ricoh AP2610
Raymond Horton wrote: Subject: Re: [Finale] printer frustration - Ricoh AP2610 Speaking of printer frustration, I'm having trouble with my Ricoh AP2610. I'm running WinFin 2006c on a Vista system. I can't get it to print letter size Finale files two-up on 11 x 17 paper with the newest driver. The old-old driver was easy to figure out, the next driver was confusing, and now with the latest driver I can't find any way in the world to get it to print correctly. Before I upped to Vista, I tried to revert to the driver that worked, and that started a sequence of problems. I think I need the newest driver for a few reasons. Anyone else printing etter size Finale files two-up on 11 x 17 paper on Vista on this printer? Anything you can tell me? I'm printing letter-size pages 2-up on 11 X 17 paper on a Ricoh AP600N in Win XP. I'm not sure how similar this is to your situation, but here is my combination of choices in the various dialogue boxes: Page Setup: 11 X 17; whatever tray; landscape. Print: all (or a range); left right; 2-up; page range (e.g. 4,1). Print Setup: 11 X 17; whatever tray; landscape. Properties: landscape; front-back; pages per sheet 1 (one). The last choice, one page per sheet, does not seem logical to me at first, but after it works it seems perfectly logical. Dalvin Boone ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Is there a key command to select the Arrow toolin Finale?
ESC (both platforms) Ctrl-sh-A (windows) Cmd-sh-A (Mac) --Allen | -Original Message- | From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Aaron Sherber | Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 12:34 PM | To: finale@shsu.edu; finale@shsu.edu | Subject: Re: [Finale] Is there a key command to select the | Arrow toolin Finale? | | At 10:21 AM 4/29/2007, George Ports wrote: | You can tap the esp key twice to bring up the arrow tool if | you are using windows. | | It normally only takes one tap on Esc to get the Selection | Tool. The exception (and I think this is poor design) is when | you're doing something for which Esc has a different meaning. | For example, if you're in the Articulation Tool, just hit Esc | once to get the Selection Tool. If you're in the SmartShape | Tool and you've just been placing or editing a smartshape, | hitting Esc once deselects the smartshape handles but leaves | you in the smartshape tool. You have to hit Esc again to get | the selection tool. | | In Win, you can also hit Ctrl-Shift-A to get the Selection Tool. | | Aaron. | | ___ | Finale mailing list | Finale@shsu.edu | http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale | ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Don Ellis? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean M. Estabrook Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:15 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 5/2/2007 2:16 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.6.2/785 - Release Date: 5/2/2007 2:16 PM ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
DON ELLIS ? Stan lord On 3 May 2007, at 16:14, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On May 3, 2007, at 8:14 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Ellis. Chuck Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Don Ellis I have his book The New Rhythm Book published 1972 Psychedelic! Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 11:14 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Don Cherry, I think Stu Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
I would guess that you're talking about Don Ellis Dick H On May 3, 2007, at 8:14 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
No he played with Ornette Coleman. They weren't into meter at all. He was barely into trumpet playing. Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 12:18 PM, Stu McIntire wrote: Don Cherry, I think Stu Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Don't be asinine. The classic Ornette Coleman quartet wasn't into meter? Somebody should have told Billy Higgins, Charlie Haden, and Ed Blackwell -- these are some of the greatest rhythm section players of all time. And while Don Cherry was not the person Dean was thinking of, he was a brilliant musician who did actually *did* do a lot of mixed-meter stuff in the 1970's. Dave Holland -- whose current band seems to play in every meter imaginable except 4/4 -- says he learned to play mixed meters from Don Cherry, and Dave still teaches that system when he does student workshops. (I learned it from Dave at the Banff Jazz Workshop, and it is a *great* system.) I would have hoped that Ornette Coleman getting a well-deserved Pulitzer this year would finally put an end to ignorant, knee-jerk dismissals of him and his associates. I'm greatly disheartened to see that's not yet the case. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 12:42 PM, Gerald Berg wrote: No he played with Ornette Coleman. They weren't into meter at all. He was barely into trumpet playing. Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 12:18 PM, Stu McIntire wrote: Don Cherry, I think Stu Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
YEAH ... somehow, I knew Chuck would know. Wonder if he's still alive and performing. Last time I saw him, I think, was at the Monterey Festival ... decades ago. Dean On May 3, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: On May 3, 2007, at 8:14 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Ellis. Chuck Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Don Imus? ;-) At 5/3/2007 12:02 PM, Richard Willis wrote: Don Ellis? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dean M. Estabrook Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:15 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Don Ellis, perhaps? Aaron J. Rabushka [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://users.waymark.net/arabushk - Original Message - From: Dean M. Estabrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: finale@shsu.edu Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 Better than a boor. Really uncouth. It was in jest but with some truth. You must be confusing them with Dave Brubeck. Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 12:58 PM, Darcy James
Better than a boor. Really uncouth. Twas in jest but with some truth. You must be confusing them with Dave Brubeck. Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 12:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Don't be asinine. The classic Ornette Coleman quartet wasn't into meter? Somebody should have told Billy Higgins, Charlie Haden, and Ed Blackwell -- these are some of the greatest rhythm section players of all time. And while Don Cherry was not the person Dean was thinking of, he was a brilliant musician who did actually *did* do a lot of mixed-meter stuff in the 1970's. Dave Holland -- whose current band seems to play in every meter imaginable except 4/4 -- says he learned to play mixed meters from Don Cherry, and Dave still teaches that system when he does student workshops. (I learned it from Dave at the Banff Jazz Workshop, and it is a *great* system.) I would have hoped that Ornette Coleman getting a well-deserved Pulitzer this year would finally put an end to ignorant, knee-jerk dismissals of him and his associates. I'm greatly disheartened to see that's not yet the case. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 12:42 PM, Gerald Berg wrote: No he played with Ornette Coleman. They weren't into meter at all. He was barely into trumpet playing. Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 12:18 PM, Stu McIntire wrote: Don Cherry, I think Stu Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
No - Don died fairly young. He had some unusual disease, I think. I remember that he spoke about it to me at one point when I casually asked how he was doing. He didn't go into the particulars but somehow made it clear that there was something going on that did not show on the surface. Chuck On May 3, 2007, at 10:10 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: YEAH ... somehow, I knew Chuck would know. Wonder if he's still alive and performing. Last time I saw him, I think, was at the Monterey Festival ... decades ago. Dean On May 3, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: On May 3, 2007, at 8:14 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Ellis. Chuck Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Darcy James Argue wrote: Don't be asinine. The classic Ornette Coleman quartet wasn't into meter? Somebody should have told Billy Higgins, Charlie Haden, and Ed Blackwell -- these are some of the greatest rhythm section players of all time. And while Don Cherry was not the person Dean was thinking of, he was a brilliant musician who did actually *did* do a lot of mixed-meter stuff in the 1970's. Dave Holland -- whose current band seems to play in every meter imaginable except 4/4 -- says he learned to play mixed meters from Don Cherry, and Dave still teaches that system when he does student workshops. (I learned it from Dave at the Banff Jazz Workshop, and it is a *great* system.) I would have hoped that Ornette Coleman getting a well-deserved Pulitzer this year would finally put an end to ignorant, knee-jerk dismissals of him and his associates. I'm greatly disheartened to see that's not yet the case. What, we're not allowed to criticize someone we don't like? I've always been disheartened by knee-jerk approvals of garbage. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Gerald Berg wrote: No he played with Ornette Coleman. They weren't into meter at all. He was barely into trumpet playing. I saw him in concert at Dartmouth college in Spring of 1970, and was dumbfounded at how horrible it was. Just him on pocket trumpet, Okay Tamiz (never heard of him before or after that concert) on drums if I recall correctly and Johnny D'Jahni (sp?) on bass. And it never seemed as if any of them were listening to each other or even paying attention to themselves. The program listed two different titles for the first half, then it said INTERMISSION then listed a third title for the second half of the concert. It turns out the intermission was when Don Cherry walked off the stage. The bass and drums kept right on playing, non-stop, until he walked onstage again and resumed his total isolationist playing without paying any attention to the others. It was a real eye-opener that people who could play that poorly and that unorganizedly couldget paid. In hindsight, I should have asked who their agent was so that I could have gotten some non-playing gigs like that. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Oops. This works. Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 2:34 PM, Gerald Berg wrote: Better than a boor. Really uncouth. Twas in jest but with some truth. You must be confusing them with Dave Brubeck. Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 12:58 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Don't be asinine. The classic Ornette Coleman quartet wasn't into meter? Somebody should have told Billy Higgins, Charlie Haden, and Ed Blackwell -- these are some of the greatest rhythm section players of all time. And while Don Cherry was not the person Dean was thinking of, he was a brilliant musician who did actually *did* do a lot of mixed-meter stuff in the 1970's. Dave Holland -- whose current band seems to play in every meter imaginable except 4/4 -- says he learned to play mixed meters from Don Cherry, and Dave still teaches that system when he does student workshops. (I learned it from Dave at the Banff Jazz Workshop, and it is a *great* system.) I would have hoped that Ornette Coleman getting a well-deserved Pulitzer this year would finally put an end to ignorant, knee-jerk dismissals of him and his associates. I'm greatly disheartened to see that's not yet the case. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 12:42 PM, Gerald Berg wrote: No he played with Ornette Coleman. They weren't into meter at all. He was barely into trumpet playing. Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 12:18 PM, Stu McIntire wrote: Don Cherry, I think Stu Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Don Ellis is dead and so is his son. They had an inherited pulmonary heart disease of some sort. Heart balloned in his chest and basically burst. Real nice. Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 1:10 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: YEAH ... somehow, I knew Chuck would know. Wonder if he's still alive and performing. Last time I saw him, I think, was at the Monterey Festival ... decades ago. Dean On May 3, 2007, at 9:08 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: On May 3, 2007, at 8:14 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Ellis. Chuck Dean On May 2, 2007, at 11:10 PM, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 On 2 May 2007 at 17:04, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 2, 2007, at 2:41 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I don't believe there is such a meter as 12 8ths to the measure. We have a meter called 12/8, but it's in 4, and notating in that meter implies certain things about the music. If those implications are inappropriate for the music you're writing, then don't use a meter that implies that. That's a little too rigid. I can easily imagine a contemporary composer wishing to group, say, 3+2+3+4 eighth notes into a single measure. But that's not TWELVE BEATS -- it's 4 beats of varying duration. If the context included constantly changing meters, all with 8 on the bottom, then a measure of 12/8 would not, IMO, automatically imply 4 dotted Q to any educated musician. Beaming can take care of a lot of this, yes. But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Dean M. Estabrook http://deanestabrook.googlepages.com/home Of all hoaxes, the one which is my most vexing bête noire on a quotidian basis, is the cereal box top which informs simply, Lift Tab to Open. Then, To Close, Insert Tab Here . Yeah, right! In attempting to accomplish the first direction, not only the tab but also the slit intended to accept the aforementioned protuberance have both been irreparably disfigured and rendered dysfunctional. This debacle is then amplified by the misbehavior of the recalcitrant inner bag, which can not be unsealed sans mangling it, and hence, will not disperse its contents without exiting the box itself. All I wanted was a bowl of cereal. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Yeah -- anyone who plays jazz without a predetermined set of chord changes must perforce be a total charlatan. Never heard *that* one before -- it's a real knee-slapper. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 2:34 PM, Gerald Berg wrote: Twas in jest but with some truth. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Substantial, specific criticism is not the same as knee-jerk dismissal. Don devoted his life to playing uncompromising and person music in the face of considerable hostility and hardship. Whether you like his music or not, he's an influential figure in the evolution of the music and deserves respect as such. It's ridiculous to say that the guy responsible for teaching Dave Holland (who is in many respects a modern-day Don Ellis figure) how to play complicated time signatures wasn't into meter, even in jest. I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 2:31 PM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Don't be asinine. The classic Ornette Coleman quartet wasn't into meter? Somebody should have told Billy Higgins, Charlie Haden, and Ed Blackwell -- these are some of the greatest rhythm section players of all time. And while Don Cherry was not the person Dean was thinking of, he was a brilliant musician who did actually *did* do a lot of mixed-meter stuff in the 1970's. Dave Holland -- whose current band seems to play in every meter imaginable except 4/4 -- says he learned to play mixed meters from Don Cherry, and Dave still teaches that system when he does student workshops. (I learned it from Dave at the Banff Jazz Workshop, and it is a *great* system.) I would have hoped that Ornette Coleman getting a well-deserved Pulitzer this year would finally put an end to ignorant, knee-jerk dismissals of him and his associates. I'm greatly disheartened to see that's not yet the case. What, we're not allowed to criticize someone we don't like? I've always been disheartened by knee-jerk approvals of garbage. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Don devoted his life to playing uncompromising and person music Erg. Should be personal music, not person music. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Thanks David Darcy is obviously not into reading carefully and into responding emotionally. There must be a hounding of tastes. I think Eddie Blackwell a magnificent musician. No one like him. I love him. And yes he could play both rhythm and meter. And he doesn't require this type of defense. I like Ornette too. But for Don Cherry-- it is true. I think him ridiculous. And he could not play the trumpet. Now if you want to talk about how he made the trumpet into something else... I guess that's true. As for the not into meter comment -- if you read it-- I was clearly referring to the Ornette band. You must have been thinking I was talking about Dave Brubeck. I'm glad for him that Cherry found 'Meter' later in life. We all gotta go someplace. Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 2:31 PM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Don't be asinine. The classic Ornette Coleman quartet wasn't into meter? Somebody should have told Billy Higgins, Charlie Haden, and Ed Blackwell -- these are some of the greatest rhythm section players of all time. And while Don Cherry was not the person Dean was thinking of, he was a brilliant musician who did actually *did* do a lot of mixed-meter stuff in the 1970's. Dave Holland -- whose current band seems to play in every meter imaginable except 4/4 -- says he learned to play mixed meters from Don Cherry, and Dave still teaches that system when he does student workshops. (I learned it from Dave at the Banff Jazz Workshop, and it is a *great* system.) I would have hoped that Ornette Coleman getting a well-deserved Pulitzer this year would finally put an end to ignorant, knee-jerk dismissals of him and his associates. I'm greatly disheartened to see that's not yet the case. What, we're not allowed to criticize someone we don't like? I've always been disheartened by knee-jerk approvals of garbage. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
That was Okay Temiz and Johnny Dyani. Temiz, a turkish born drummer, was (and is) rather well-known for his early explorations of incorporating odd metered rhythms as well as ethno elements into jazz. Hans Stockholm, Sweden dhbailey wrote: I saw him in concert at Dartmouth college in Spring of 1970, and was dumbfounded at how horrible it was. Just him on pocket trumpet, Okay Tamiz (never heard of him before or after that concert) on drums if I recall correctly and Johnny D'Jahni (sp?) on bass. And it never seemed as if any of them were listening to each other or even paying attention to themselves. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: Don Cherry (was: Conducting in 12/8)
On May 3, 2007, at 2:30 PM, dhbailey wrote: Gerald Berg wrote: No he played with Ornette Coleman. They weren't into meter at all. He was barely into trumpet playing. I saw him in concert at Dartmouth college in Spring of 1970, and was dumbfounded at how horrible it was. I saw him play with the trio Codona (an Oregon spinoff) about ten years later, and was highly impressed. I reviewed the concert very favorably for the _Buffalo News_, and even went so far as to buy one of their records for my (small) jazz collection. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Darcy James Argue wrote: ...And while Don Cherry was not the person Dean was thinking of, he was a brilliant musician who did actually *did* do a lot of mixed-meter stuff in the 1970's. Dave Holland -- whose current band seems to play in every meter imaginable except 4/4 -- says he learned to play mixed meters from Don Cherry, and Dave still teaches that system when he does student workshops. (I learned it from Dave at the Banff Jazz Workshop, and it is a *great* system.) You raise some very good points. However, can we agree that Don Cherry is a lousy hockey commentator? -Randolph Peters P.S. Sorry everyone. I probably should have put a Canadian Humour Alert at the top. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] garbled GPO playback
Do any of you have advice on how to prevent GPO playback from being garbled? The piece in question is a piano quintet, so four KS strings plus one Steinway piano are loaded on channels 1-5. Some measures sound like an old LP with many scratches. It is possible that this is a memory problem. My system is a Pentium 4, 2.27 GHz, 1 G RAM (the max on this computer), the paging file is set at the max (1538MB), and when working in Finale, I turn off as many background applications as seem to be safe to unload. If not a memory problem, what else can I do to eliminate these scratchy measures? Thanks for any advice. Marilyn __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 3 May 2007 at 15:00, Darcy James Argue wrote: I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. Um... -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 3-May-07, at 11:14 AM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Who was that jazz tpt. player, prominent back in the late sixties, who used to do charts with meters like 87/4, etc? I think his first name was Don . Most of what I saw of his had denominators like 8 and 16, denoting changing groups of subdivisions, rather than simply changing numbers of pulses. Funny that some of his work, which sounded so out there at the time, sounds rather ordinary today! This is not a criticism or a comment on lack of sophistication, but only an observation of how comfortably he was able to groove in those odd metres, and how much of it is commonplace now. I had a Romanian student who kept bringing in these jazz pieces in odd metres, and the students were having trouble reading them. He shook his head and said every ten year old in Romania can clap these rhythms, as they were simple folk dances. We stood up and put our arms across each others' shoulders and learned the dances, and ten minutes later the students were grooving their butts off! Once they knew how to dance it, they played it as easily as 4/4. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. But look at what he actually did with his life -- not what he said he'd rather have done. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 4:26 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 3 May 2007 at 15:00, Darcy James Argue wrote: I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. Um... -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 3 May 2007 at 7:10, Owain Sutton wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton Sent: 02 May 2007 22:43 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8 [] But what was described in the post was 12 undifferentiated beats. At least, that was my understanding. And I say that such a thing does not exist in music played (or perceived) by human beings. -- David W. Fenton Damn. I thought the bar before the Glorifcation de L'Eule in the Rite was thirteen, but I checked the score and it's in fact eleven. So maybe twelve is the absolute cut-off beyond which we can't conceive or perceive of non-emphasised beats. (Wait, I just did perceive them in my faulty memory, didn't I? ;) ) I defy any performer or listener to not group those 11 beats into some accent pattern. And maybe the What Would Igor Do rule is actually the one to follow - changing ever bar between 3/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 could indeed preserve the fliudity of rhythm which seems to be required in this particular situation. Fluidity and meter do not conflict with each other one bit. If Stravinsky thought they did, he was simply mistaken. I actually suspect his point was something else entirely, though it often is interpreted exactly as you suggest. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Don Cherry (was: Conducting in 12/8)
Don's July 1989 appearance at the Montreal Jazz Fest (with Charlie Haden and Ed Blackwell) is beautiful. The recording is available under Charlie Haden's name: http://www.vervemusicgroup.com/product.aspx?ob=discsrc=artpid=9888 Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 4:15 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 3, 2007, at 2:30 PM, dhbailey wrote: Gerald Berg wrote: No he played with Ornette Coleman. They weren't into meter at all. He was barely into trumpet playing. I saw him in concert at Dartmouth college in Spring of 1970, and was dumbfounded at how horrible it was. I saw him play with the trio Codona (an Oregon spinoff) about ten years later, and was highly impressed. I reviewed the concert very favorably for the _Buffalo News_, and even went so far as to buy one of their records for my (small) jazz collection. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 3-May-07, at 2:31 PM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: I would have hoped that Ornette Coleman getting a well-deserved Pulitzer this year would finally put an end to ignorant, knee-jerk dismissals of him and his associates. I'm greatly disheartened to see that's not yet the case. What, we're not allowed to criticize someone we don't like? I've always been disheartened by knee-jerk approvals of garbage. I didn't like Cherry's trumpet playing from a technical point of view, but he WAS able to communicate as a musician. Check out Ornette's first album, The Shape Of Jazz To Come, and tell me that Lonely Woman isn't a passionate, expressive work. Jimmy Guiffre wasn't a stellar clarinetist, either, but my jaw dropped when I heard a duo album he recorded with Paul Bley (the title escapes me now). Gorgeous, concise, fantastically-constructed improvisations without the tons of notes that usually characterise modern improvisations, that made you completely forget the weedy little sound he had. Both of them fantastic musicians, not the greatest technicians. I wouldn't dismiss either of them. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] FS: Finale 1.0 Manual Set (1988)
Greetings, I'm in the midst of Spring Cleaning and found an extra copy of the multiple volume Finale 1.0 Manual and References (from the year 1988 - price $1000.00!) Before I haul these to the recyclers, I thought I'd offer these historical artifacts to the Finale List. Ya never know...someone might get a kick out of having a copy of these tomes. Name your best price. On Monday, they go to the recycler. Best to all, Eric Richards - Ahhh...imagining that irresistible new car smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Darcy James Argue wrote: Substantial, specific criticism is not the same as knee-jerk dismissal. Don devoted his life to playing uncompromising and person music in the face of considerable hostility and hardship. Whether you like his music or not, he's an influential figure in the evolution of the music and deserves respect as such. It's ridiculous to say that the guy responsible for teaching Dave Holland (who is in many respects a modern-day Don Ellis figure) how to play complicated time signatures wasn't into meter, even in jest. I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. I can accept that. But having heard Don Cherry perform live, I can say that the assessment, at least from what I saw/heard, that he was 'barely into playing the trumpet' was certainly a valid impression. I would certainly not paint Ornette Coleman with the same brush, but Don Cherry showed no concern for tone, no concern for intonation, no concern for pitch, no concern for the audience, no concern for anything other than standing on stage and playing anything he could get out, and then presumably collecting his check and heading home after the performance. And I've heard nothing of his on record which would change that assessment. But then he's in the New Grove Dictionary of Jazz and I'm not (well, actually I am but it's a different me), so obviously there are many people who don't share my poor view of Don Cherry's trumpet playing ability. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Are you basing your opinion of Don's playing entirely on this one gig? Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 5:03 PM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Substantial, specific criticism is not the same as knee-jerk dismissal. Don devoted his life to playing uncompromising and person music in the face of considerable hostility and hardship. Whether you like his music or not, he's an influential figure in the evolution of the music and deserves respect as such. It's ridiculous to say that the guy responsible for teaching Dave Holland (who is in many respects a modern-day Don Ellis figure) how to play complicated time signatures wasn't into meter, even in jest. I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. I can accept that. But having heard Don Cherry perform live, I can say that the assessment, at least from what I saw/heard, that he was 'barely into playing the trumpet' was certainly a valid impression. I would certainly not paint Ornette Coleman with the same brush, but Don Cherry showed no concern for tone, no concern for intonation, no concern for pitch, no concern for the audience, no concern for anything other than standing on stage and playing anything he could get out, and then presumably collecting his check and heading home after the performance. And I've heard nothing of his on record which would change that assessment. But then he's in the New Grove Dictionary of Jazz and I'm not (well, actually I am but it's a different me), so obviously there are many people who don't share my poor view of Don Cherry's trumpet playing ability. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
The Giuffre trio records with Paul Bley and Steve Swallow are classic. Originally recorded for Verve, the first two were reissued by ECM as Jimmy Giuffre 3 1961. The other one is called Free Fall, on Columbia. Perhaps it was one of those you are thinking of? (There are several duo tracks, where Swallow lays out and it's just Paul and Jimmy.) Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 3:55 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: Jimmy Guiffre wasn't a stellar clarinetist, either, but my jaw dropped when I heard a duo album he recorded with Paul Bley (the title escapes me now). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Sorry, David -- I missed this sentence on first reading: And I've heard nothing of his on record which would change that assessment. So, uh, obviously not. My apologies. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 5:15 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Are you basing your opinion of Don's playing entirely on this one gig? Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 5:03 PM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Substantial, specific criticism is not the same as knee-jerk dismissal. Don devoted his life to playing uncompromising and person music in the face of considerable hostility and hardship. Whether you like his music or not, he's an influential figure in the evolution of the music and deserves respect as such. It's ridiculous to say that the guy responsible for teaching Dave Holland (who is in many respects a modern-day Don Ellis figure) how to play complicated time signatures wasn't into meter, even in jest. I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. I can accept that. But having heard Don Cherry perform live, I can say that the assessment, at least from what I saw/heard, that he was 'barely into playing the trumpet' was certainly a valid impression. I would certainly not paint Ornette Coleman with the same brush, but Don Cherry showed no concern for tone, no concern for intonation, no concern for pitch, no concern for the audience, no concern for anything other than standing on stage and playing anything he could get out, and then presumably collecting his check and heading home after the performance. And I've heard nothing of his on record which would change that assessment. But then he's in the New Grove Dictionary of Jazz and I'm not (well, actually I am but it's a different me), so obviously there are many people who don't share my poor view of Don Cherry's trumpet playing ability. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Darcy James Argue wrote: Are you basing your opinion of Don's playing entirely on this one gig? And recordings I heard of him at about that time. In light of Andrew's comment about a concert he heard Don Cherry and another comment of a more recent recording, I can easily admit that my dismissal of Cherry may be unfair. But with all the fine musicians there are in the world, I don't have time to spend pursuing musicians who treat me with disdain as an audience member or who play in a manner that I find distasteful. Life's too short and there are just too many musicians to try to hear them all, so if I don't like someone I move on to others. I don't listen to Marion Brown for the same reason. And he even taught a jazz history course at my college. He treated us as students with great disdain, too, very much with a just give me the money attitude. He didn't bother to show up to several classes and didn't bother to call the school so we just sat there waiting. I had signed up for the course thinking At last, I can learn about jazz history from someone who is helping make it! I learned more from the books I read on my own than I ever learned from that class. People with bad attitudes, I don't care who they are, I won't waste my time with them. And I don't expect them to waste their time with me if they find that I have a bad attitude, either. Burn me once and I may never give a listen again. And for all I know Don Cherry may cringe when he hears recordings he made in the late 60s and early 70s, as he has moved beyond that stage. Or he may still be proud of them. That's fine. But I've found other musicians to listen to whose music resonates with me much more. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 3 May 2007 at 16:46, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 03 May 2007, at 4:26 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 3 May 2007 at 15:00, Darcy James Argue wrote: I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. Um... Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. But look at what he actually did with his life -- not what he said he'd rather have done. As a philosopher of arts, he was a genius. As a musician/composer, not so much. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] FS: Finale 1.0 Manual Set (1988)
So that's how long I've been using Finale! Chuck On May 3, 2007, at 1:56 PM, ER @ HOME wrote: Greetings, I'm in the midst of Spring Cleaning and found an extra copy of the multiple volume Finale 1.0 Manual and References (from the year 1988 - price $1000.00!) Before I haul these to the recyclers, I thought I'd offer these historical artifacts to the Finale List. Ya never know...someone might get a kick out of having a copy of these tomes. Name your best price. On Monday, they go to the recycler. Best to all, Eric Richards - Ahhh...imagining that irresistible new car smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: Don Cherry (was: Conducting in 12/8)
And that's what makes a market. No Clifford Brown? Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 4:15 PM, Andrew Stiller wrote: On May 3, 2007, at 2:30 PM, dhbailey wrote: Gerald Berg wrote: No he played with Ornette Coleman. They weren't into meter at all. He was barely into trumpet playing. I saw him in concert at Dartmouth college in Spring of 1970, and was dumbfounded at how horrible it was. I saw him play with the trio Codona (an Oregon spinoff) about ten years later, and was highly impressed. I reviewed the concert very favorably for the _Buffalo News_, and even went so far as to buy one of their records for my (small) jazz collection. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://www.kallistimusic.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
Yes, of course! I had heard first one of the duo tracks, so I based my impression of a duo album on that. Thanks for the reference. I will pick those up, as I loved what I heard. Christopher On 3-May-07, at 5:14 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: The Giuffre trio records with Paul Bley and Steve Swallow are classic. Originally recorded for Verve, the first two were reissued by ECM as Jimmy Giuffre 3 1961. The other one is called Free Fall, on Columbia. Perhaps it was one of those you are thinking of? (There are several duo tracks, where Swallow lays out and it's just Paul and Jimmy.) On 03 May 2007, at 3:55 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: Jimmy Guiffre wasn't a stellar clarinetist, either, but my jaw dropped when I heard a duo album he recorded with Paul Bley (the title escapes me now). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Don Cherry (WAS: Conducting in 12/8)
Here's a YouTube video of Don Cherry playing Monk's 52nd St. Theme with Sonny Rollins in 1963: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7g-YkEX2zQ It's not my favorite context in which to hear him, by any means, but in his solo, he plays with good time and tells a good story. His technique is sloppy, no question --nobody's going to mistake him for Clifford Brown, but see, he's not trying to be Clifford Brown. And it's fascinating to hear his influence on Sonny, who at this point had been playing this tune, like, forever -- probably ever since Monk first brought it in! But Don made him approach it differently. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
See Darcy? Slow down. I'm still expecting an apology. Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 5:21 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Sorry, David -- I missed this sentence on first reading: And I've heard nothing of his on record which would change that assessment. So, uh, obviously not. My apologies. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 5:15 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Are you basing your opinion of Don's playing entirely on this one gig? Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 5:03 PM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: Substantial, specific criticism is not the same as knee-jerk dismissal. Don devoted his life to playing uncompromising and person music in the face of considerable hostility and hardship. Whether you like his music or not, he's an influential figure in the evolution of the music and deserves respect as such. It's ridiculous to say that the guy responsible for teaching Dave Holland (who is in many respects a modern-day Don Ellis figure) how to play complicated time signatures wasn't into meter, even in jest. I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. I can accept that. But having heard Don Cherry perform live, I can say that the assessment, at least from what I saw/heard, that he was 'barely into playing the trumpet' was certainly a valid impression. I would certainly not paint Ornette Coleman with the same brush, but Don Cherry showed no concern for tone, no concern for intonation, no concern for pitch, no concern for the audience, no concern for anything other than standing on stage and playing anything he could get out, and then presumably collecting his check and heading home after the performance. And I've heard nothing of his on record which would change that assessment. But then he's in the New Grove Dictionary of Jazz and I'm not (well, actually I am but it's a different me), so obviously there are many people who don't share my poor view of Don Cherry's trumpet playing ability. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
For what, exactly? You took an ignorant cheap shot at a musician you don't, apparently, know much about, and I corrected you. And you haven't offered a substantial rebuttal to any of my points, other than to assert that in your opinion, Don is ridiculous and could not play the trumpet. Cheers, - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 03 May 2007, at 6:05 PM, Gerald Berg wrote: I'm still expecting an apology. Jerry Gerald Berg ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Lonely Woman
I do love that tune most of all Ornette's ouvre. Ever hear Helen Merrill's version? I would say that what Cherry had here (Lonely Woman) was the expression of the inarticulate. Valid expression but somewhat volatile. I mean how often are you able to be articulate about inarticulateness? It can't be intentional because then, it's about acting. More akin to Dubuffet's concept of L'Art Brute. I played with Misha Mengelberg once and had a very stimulating conversation after. He said one thing that I've held since. I paraphrase. He thought Ornette was necessary for Jazz after Charlie Parker in that he humanized it again. Jerry Gerald Berg On 3-May-07, at 3:55 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On 3-May-07, at 2:31 PM, dhbailey wrote: Darcy James Argue wrote: I would have hoped that Ornette Coleman getting a well-deserved Pulitzer this year would finally put an end to ignorant, knee-jerk dismissals of him and his associates. I'm greatly disheartened to see that's not yet the case. What, we're not allowed to criticize someone we don't like? I've always been disheartened by knee-jerk approvals of garbage. I didn't like Cherry's trumpet playing from a technical point of view, but he WAS able to communicate as a musician. Check out Ornette's first album, The Shape Of Jazz To Come, and tell me that Lonely Woman isn't a passionate, expressive work. Jimmy Guiffre wasn't a stellar clarinetist, either, but my jaw dropped when I heard a duo album he recorded with Paul Bley (the title escapes me now). Gorgeous, concise, fantastically-constructed improvisations without the tons of notes that usually characterise modern improvisations, that made you completely forget the weedy little sound he had. Both of them fantastic musicians, not the greatest technicians. I wouldn't dismiss either of them. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
I think Cage was more important as an influence than as a composer. That is not to diminish his importance at all. Cheers, Lawrence lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Conducting in 12/8
On 3 May 2007 at 18:39, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 03 May 2007, at 5:37 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 3 May 2007 at 16:46, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 03 May 2007, at 4:26 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 3 May 2007 at 15:00, Darcy James Argue wrote: I mean, whatever you might think of, oh I don't know -- John Cage, let's say -- it would be idiotic to say that he was barely into composing. Um... Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. But look at what he actually did with his life -- not what he said he'd rather have done. As a philosopher of arts, he was a genius. As a musician/composer, not so much. The point is that John Cage in fact devoted his life to composing, and is a hugely important figure in 20th century music. I'm not particularly interested in any one individual's assessment of his work here -- I'm not particularly a fan of most of his post-4'33 stuff myself. But it would be absurd to claim that someone like Cage was barely into composition. From my definition of composition and music, he didn't do too much of it. Of course some of his early stuff, before he got obsessed with philosophy over music-making, is pretty fascinating. I wish he'd continued in that vein instead of abandoning music-making in favor of provocation. Too much of Cage's influence comes from his ideas and not from his actual music. It's like the old joke that Richard Hofmann at Oberlin used to tell, poking fun at concept music -- he always said he had a concept piece, for children's chorus and child molester. There is no punchline. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] HP 5si Duplex, frustration with 9x12 paper
List members... I latched on to a bunch of 9x12 paper and am using it to do some simple scores parts. It works great on my HP 5si UNLESS I try duplexing. While none of you may own a 5si, I am hoping that the HP printers are universal enough to allow what works for you to work for me on the 5si. I'm using tray 1 (the only possible location for custom paper) and defined 9x12 paper as concert, just as Finale does. Single-sided printing works beautifully. But when I tell it to print two-sided, no combination or permutation of portrait-landscape-rotated landscape (whatever that is), flip on long edge/flip on short edge seems to give me two pages that print properly. Only partial pages print on either side, and I find no rime or reason to how they print. They start various places on a page... How can pages that print so nicely one-sided be such a mess when I try duplexing??? Any words of wisdom welcome. I hope the HP printers are universal enough for your instructions on (say) a 5000 to work on my 5si. Thanks... Jim Dear Jim, I use a 5si though the duplexing function has carked it on my particular printer (i.e. the feeding mechanism). Whilst I don't have any experience with 9x12 paper, I used to duplex print successfully to A3 paper which may be the same thing. Have you checked the double-sided option in the printer itself? In the internal LED menus on the top of the printer? I had problems with this at one stage. Also I couldn't print A3 duplex successfully at 600dpi until I added more memory to the printer itself. Hopefully these will help you. Matthew ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
