Re: Not a good idea (was Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?)
David Megginson said: So, in the end, my advice is not to do it. If you want to make a living or partial living from FlightGear, set up a separate commercial site and be prepared to learn about CRM, tax laws, incorporation laws, legal fees, insurance, NDA's, contracts, and all the other fun that comes with running your own small business. Well...hmm. This is a little pessimistic in tone. Non-profit can be handled with reasonable ease, at least in the US. Find someone who will set it up for a reasonable fee (free if possible), get a cost for registering and solicit contributions to do so. It isn't that bad. However, before doing this, I would consider what is really required here. You see, at least on the federal level you can collect quite a large sum of money as gifts before you have to put anything on your tax return. Even if Curt, or someone handling the money, did have to file a Schedule C (which is generally a no brainer for something like this) all he'd have to do is make sure the money got spent to avoid liability. The main reason for registering as a non-profit is to offer your contributors a way to take deductions off of their taxes. The second reason comes into play if employees are hired. That would be down the road a bit, I would guess. So in a nutshell my advice is: (1) Think about the project image issue. (2) Don't be afraid of small business. People do it every day. It doesn't have to be complex or commercial. Best, Jim P.S. Note, I am not a CPA or a lawyer, but I've been intimately involved in starting up corporations (one was my own) and have filed a few schedule C forms over the years. Talk to a CPA who understands that you want to keep it simple. Generally speaking business lawyers don't know what keep it simple means (or rather they recognize that simple != legal fees). ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: Not a good idea (was Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?)
Jim Wilson wrote: You see, at least on the federal level you can collect quite a large sum of money as gifts before you have to put anything on your tax return. I am not intimately familiar with U.S. tax laws, but I would be very surprised if the IRS allowed Curt to count advertising revenue as a gift. I will admit that I do not know what the case would be for voluntary donations, so a PayPal donation button might be an OK choice. So in a nutshell my advice is: (1) Think about the project image issue. (2) Don't be afraid of small business. People do it every day. It doesn't have to be complex or commercial. The overhead is not horrible, but it's important not to underestimate it -- you'll be hard-pressed to find any small business owner who was not surprised by the amount of non-billable work involved and dismayed by the number of regs to learn (and I understand that the U.S. is much worse than Canada in this regard). I've set up three corporations and have been running my own small business since 1998, and the extra time required is by no means a full-time or even half-time job, but it is there. I've never done anything disasterous, but I did have to write off USD 18K in accounts receivable from a customer that went bankrupt, and I lost another USD 9K to the government early on because of tax laws I didn't fully understand yet (I wrote myself a bonus cheque a couple of months later than I was supposed to, and ended up with a mini-audit from the province of Ontario and USD 1.5K in accounting fees on top of the tax penalty). I don't regret going into business for myself, but it's a big commitment, not a side project. If someone already has too little time available, as is Curt's problem, spending even more time managing customer relationships, sending out invoices, chasing down bad accounts, filling in tax forms, etc. might not be the best choice, especially if the potential revenue is (as I suspect) a couple of thousand dollars per year at best. P.S. Note, I am not a CPA or a lawyer, but I've been intimately involved in starting up corporations (one was my own) and have filed a few schedule C forms over the years. Talk to a CPA who understands that you want to keep it simple. Generally speaking business lawyers don't know what keep it simple means (or rather they recognize that simple != legal fees). The problem is that the CPA's fee alone will probably represent a significant percentage of the potential annual revenue. All the best, David ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: Not a good idea (was Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?)
David Megginson said: Jim Wilson wrote: You see, at least on the federal level you can collect quite a large sum of money as gifts before you have to put anything on your tax return. I am not intimately familiar with U.S. tax laws, but I would be very surprised if the IRS allowed Curt to count advertising revenue as a gift. I will admit that I do not know what the case would be for voluntary donations, so a PayPal donation button might be an OK choice. So in a nutshell my advice is: (1) Think about the project image issue. (2) Don't be afraid of small business. People do it every day. It doesn't have to be complex or commercial. The overhead is not horrible, but it's important not to underestimate it -- you'll be hard-pressed to find any small business owner who was not surprised by the amount of non-billable work involved and dismayed by the number of regs to learn (and I understand that the U.S. is much worse than Canada in this regard). I've set up three corporations and have been running my own small business since 1998, and the extra time required is by no means a full-time or even half-time job, but it is there. I've never done anything disasterous, but I did have to write off USD 18K in accounts receivable from a customer that went bankrupt, and I lost another USD 9K to the government early on because of tax laws I didn't fully understand yet (I wrote myself a bonus cheque a couple of months later than I was supposed to, and ended up with a mini-audit from the province of Ontario and USD 1.5K in accounting fees on top of the tax penalty). I don't regret going into business for myself, but it's a big commitment, not a side project. If someone already has too little time available, as is Curt's problem, spending even more time managing customer relationships, sending out invoices, chasing down bad accounts, filling in tax forms, etc. might not be the best choice, especially if the potential revenue is (as I suspect) a couple of thousand dollars per year at best. P.S. Note, I am not a CPA or a lawyer, but I've been intimately involved in starting up corporations (one was my own) and have filed a few schedule C forms over the years. Talk to a CPA who understands that you want to keep it simple. Generally speaking business lawyers don't know what keep it simple means (or rather they recognize that simple != legal fees). The problem is that the CPA's fee alone will probably represent a significant percentage of the potential annual revenue. I'm not disagreeing with you, but collecting a few donations from PayPal shouldn't require anything. That's the point. If (only if) it is required, a simple schedule C is routine for little things on the side and usually takes about 15 minutes to complete. Probably a million or more get filed in the US every year. There's even a short form version that covers most side hobby type things. Maybe I've missed something in this thread, I am not talking about a consulting business with customers, time billing, etc. Such a business is just exactly as you describe, except maybe for folks that just do a little moonlighting in the local neighborhood. Yes, schedule C would probably be required for advertizing revenues (if the proceeds are above the annual minimum which has got to be at least $500). That's why I mentioned it earlier. FWIW I'm not keen on the ad idea either. I don't think it would produce much anyway. As far as the CPA is concerned, of course they charge a good fee for their time if you ask them to structure a business or do a plan, financial statements, returns, etc. There are at least a couple in town here who will answer a simple question they don't have to research like how much can I collect in donations before filing a schedule C (just don't make the call during tax season :-)). For that matter the IRS 800 number offers the same info and probably the website does too. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: Not a good idea (was Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?)
Jim Wilson wrote: Maybe I've missed something in this thread, I am not talking about a consulting business with customers, time billing, etc. The thread started with Curt posting asking for opinions about running banner ads on flightgear.org to raise revenue. He also indicated that he'd be dealing with the initial customer directly rather than through a distributed advertising plan like Google text ads, and others chimed in suggesting how he should screen advertisers, ensure that their hardware works with FlightGear, etc. I mentioned a PayPal donations button as a better alternative, though I still had concerns about tax issues (which you indicate shouldn't be a problem for small donations). FWIW I'm not keen on the ad idea either. I don't think it would produce much anyway. As I suggested, it would produce a lot of work for little benefit, especially if Curt ends up managing customer relationships with advertisers one-on-one (much less doing all the screening that people want him to do). For that matter the IRS 800 number offers the same info and probably the website does too. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I have no problem with a donations button as long as it causes no tax problems for Curt. It is worth noting a formal PayPal donations account does leave a (virtual) paper trail and the tax auditors like to hike along that kind of trail, so it would be good to check with people who know. I don't know U.S. professional fees that well, but I'd guess that a full audit would leave a person at least USD 5K-10K poorer just in accounting and/or legal fees, even if the auditors do not end up finding anything wrong. All the best, David ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: Not a good idea (was Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?)
David Megginson said: check with people who know. I don't know U.S. professional fees that well, but I'd guess that a full audit would leave a person at least USD 5K-10K poorer just in accounting and/or legal fees, even if the auditors do not end up finding anything wrong. Well...not with a Schedule C-EZ ;-) Despite the odd and usually unconfirmed horror story, the IRS is actually quite fair and reasonable. Professional fees should always be proportional to the sums at risk. Otherwise you are wasting time and money and so is the IRS. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Curtis L. Olson wrote: If we put banner adds on our web site, and one of our visiters clicks through and buys something from this company (being referred from our site) then we would get a 10% commission from the sale. I don't have any objections agains this idea. I just a bit unsure if it's really the right thing ;-) I assume in order to enable The Flightgear Project to accept funds you hve to establish some sort of organization, legal entity. The costs of running this organization might eliminate the funds Much better (and significantly harder to get) is an employment for a FlightGear developer, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Curtis L. Olson wrote: Yes, in my most recent reply to this company, I asked specifically about FG support (and support for operating systems not owned and operated by MS.) It's not necessarily clear from their web page exactly how their products interface with the computer and how they work ... hopefully we can get a bit of a better handle on that before we proceed. In terms of quality here is what they proposed which seems reasonable since we face a chicken/egg problem here. They don't want to send free hardware to any random person that applies for their program and promises to post an add on their site. So they propose that we run an add for a week or two or however long it takes to generate a couple sales. Once that happens, then they feel their risk of loss is minimized and they would be willing to send a sample or two of something for review. It seems like a reasonable approach. They aren't unwilling to send a sample, but they don't want to be taken advantage of. I don't see much of a problem with this. I agree it would be nice to only show advertisements for Flight Simulation/Aviation/Computer Hardware (not necessarily PC related!!! ;-) ), but I don't see a food company, or a company selling diapers will have much interest in our website anyhow. Maybe there is an alternative to the main page, put the banner on all the download sections, just to remind people there is money involved, even in Free Software. This is just a thought though an can be discarded if desired. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Boris Koenig wrote: Getting even more extreme, one might ponder about offering that said company to integrate their webpage address or even company logo directly into some of the future official FlightGear releases. No, No No. Never. This is not going to happen. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Erik Hofman wrote: Boris Koenig wrote: Getting even more extreme, one might ponder about offering that said company to integrate their webpage address or even company logo directly into some of the future official FlightGear releases. No, No No. Never. This is not going to happen. lol, didn't like the idea that much either ;-) But on the other hand I followed the whole discussion about FlightGear financing and had to notice that most people simply tend to object against any suggestions that are being made, INSTEAD of making better suggestions themselves. I do understand that there are some strong feelings involved in the whole issue, but then again, I also see MANY of the other _BIG_ opensource projects really relying on such kind of income. And all this can still happen on a volunteer basis. So, please understand my views about that correctly: if it was my call, I wouldn't WANT to make the decision either, simply because of all the hassles AND also the potential change of perception, involved. But as a USER I perfectly understand that some kind of income needs to be made, either the one way or the other. Even if the the whole advertising idea should be dropped (which _I_ would not recommend: one should *FIRST* give the whole thing a try !), I would still suggest to at least set up a support/donation-specific set of pages on FlightGear.org - possibly even involving some kind of feature request bidding system (which I suggested in my last mail). While objecting against such changes is pretty easy (and I repeat again: I don't like most of the stuff either), one should take into consideration that the project itself might suffer by such decisions, simply because of the inflexibility of the decision makers or community in that case. Just think about the possibilites the FlightGear project could have if there was at least some kind of financial basis. SO, instead of taking my mail apart and telling me what's NOT going to happen it might be more helpful for the final outcome to make new suggestions - which in the end, might be helpful for the final outcome, *I* certainly wouldn't mind if FlightGear is being kept AD-free and all the idas I mentioned so far are ignored, IF anybody of YOU can make an even more acceptable suggestion it would be ALL THE BETTER ! (Just mentioning this because of some private mails that I've received meanwhile) ;-) - Boris - no affiliated with any simulator hardware vendor - :-) ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Boris Koenig wrote: SO, instead of taking my mail apart and telling me what's NOT going to happen it might be more helpful for the final outcome to make new suggestions Not really. If you have spent the amount of money on FlightGear as I have done then you may make any suggestion you like. Until then I may say what I like (and don't). For now I would like to keep my suggestions for myself so maybe I can get some money back, instead of some bozo who just noticed the existence of our project (No I'm not referring to you in this case). Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Erik Hofman wrote: Boris Koenig wrote: SO, instead of taking my mail apart and telling me what's NOT going to happen it might be more helpful for the final outcome to make new suggestions Not really. If you have spent the amount of money on FlightGear as I have done then you may make any suggestion you like. yes, I suppose that argument is indeed legitimate in your case, and probably that's true for most developers actively being involved in the FlightGear project. _But_ if you read the whole paragraph again, you'll see that I wasn't referring to you by that particular comment, but rather some folks who -OBVIOUSLY- have some very strong feelings about FlightGear and the opensource philosophy and consider my *ideas* the embodiment of the devil - some of them really seem to confuse the opensource philoshopy with communism ;-) Until then I may say what I like (and don't). Absolutely legitimate I think, even though some people tend to forget that this whole issue is not about unpopular views of a minority but rather about making unpopular decisions in general. The latter being something that most project leaders or even company leaders usually have to do on a daily basis, not because they like it - but because they need to keep the eye on the ultimate outcome of a project. I did already imply, that I personally would also love to see opensource projects in general not to have to rely on any external funds - but this is not that easily arranged. You would really have to start merchandising for FlightGear in order to create the necessary financial backbone. For now I would like to keep my suggestions for myself so maybe I can get some money back, actually, we are probably talking about the same things here, or at least a very similar motivation: decreasing the burden that's being put on some few people by a project like FlightGear. And this is also about financial issues, you seem to know that quite well from your own experiences. Having a paypal account myself, I probably really wouldn't mind to make a small donation every now and then. If I even had the opportunity to assign my donation to certain feature requests, it would be even better. instead of some bozo who just noticed the existence of our project This is really getting funny - I didn't expect to have that much fun here... (No I'm not referring to you in this case). Thanks, that's really nice :-) But back to the original topic: I haven't though yet about that point, but honestly don't think that there'll be ANY people -expect people- directly benefitting from such an arrangement, so talking of your new bozo: he would certainly have to put __*MUCH*__ work into FlightGear before being able to make legitimate claims in that regard. So, I really wouldn't worry about that point yet. - Boris ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Boris Koenig wrote: Erik Hofman wrote: instead of some bozo who just noticed the existence of our project This is really getting funny - I didn't expect to have that much fun here... (No I'm not referring to you in this case). Thanks, that's really nice :-) In case you didn't notice it, I really wasn't referring to you. The only problem I have with you, is that you say too much (long posts) :-) Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Erik Hofman wrote: Somebody who types faster than he reads wrote: Thanks, that's really nice :-) In case you didn't notice it, I really wasn't referring to you. Well, thanks for the explanation - but I guess I understood you correctly :-) The only problem I have with you, is that you say too much (long posts) :-) Ya, I see - and somehow even gotta agree ... having meanwhile tried to summarize the Nasal extensions that I would *minimally* need, shows quite well that I really should stop sending these lengthy mails out :-) But hey Erik, you know what ? I'm gonna send you my mails as a tarball attachment ! :-)) - Boris ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Boris Koenig writes: Ya, I see - and somehow even gotta agree ... having meanwhile tried to summarize the Nasal extensions that I would *minimally* need, Hey I've got an idea ! Why don't you commission one of the FlightGear developers to write the extensions you seem to *need* and pay for it with advertisement revenue from your site :-) Norman ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Norman Vine wrote: Boris Koenig writes: Ya, I see - and somehow even gotta agree ... having meanwhile tried to summarize the Nasal extensions that I would *minimally* need, Hey I've got an idea ! I am listening ;-) Why don't you commission one of the FlightGear developers to write the extensions you seem to *need* and pay for it with advertisement revenue from your site :-) lol, it really seems that I am making a very commercially oriented impression on most folks here: Well, thanks for that idea, but on the one hand _I_ don't *need* a certain extension, but rather would like to be able to extend FlightGear itself in a way to make it useful for even a broader audience. On the other hand I mentioned already that I would probably be able to customize the original FlightGear sources myself, of course that would take some more time - but this is then also something I wouldn't want to do, because I was a) told it wouldn't be necessary to make many C++ changes myself, and then also that b)some of my additions would be unlikely to get accepted for an official release, simply because of objections against blowing Nasal itself more up. But, *if* I should really start implementing the stuff, I'd of course want the whole thing to be officially available within each FlightGear release. Also, you don't seem to have read the whole FliteTutor webpages: this is not about some kind of commercial idea, rather it's currently merely about a *CONCEPT* for a particular extension, that -should it achieve implementation level- would still be supposed to become opensource (see the FAQ). So, I don't have any financial intentions whatsoever, nor do I plan to put ads on the sourceforge webpage, and by the way I HIGHLY doubt that would create _any_ revenue at all - the most visitors (not hits) I've had there so far, were 50 on one day, currently I am at most at a dozen a day. So, taking all these into account the FliteTutor idea itself would certainly not put me into the position to make any significant (financial) contributions to FlightGear. ;-) - Boris ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Boris Koenig writes: Boris Koenig writes: Ya, I see - and somehow even gotta agree ... having meanwhile tried to summarize the Nasal extensions thatsee I would *minimally* need, _I_ don't *need* a certain extension, so which is it see quote above but rather would like to be able to extend FlightGear itself in a way to make it useful for even a broader audience. Best way to do that is to contribute directly to FlightGear rather then start a site of your own :-) chance's-are-the-needed-changes-will-be-more-forthcomingl'y y'rs Norman ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Boris Koenig wrote: But on the other hand I followed the whole discussion about FlightGear financing and had to notice that most people simply tend to object against any suggestions that are being made, INSTEAD of making better suggestions themselves. I might have missed a message, but I do not remember a single one like that. Most people supported Curt's suggestion, two people written that it was a hard choice, and I said that it would be a bad idea both for Curt personally (who'd have to pay taxes on the money) and for the project, and offered three better alternatives. I do understand that there are some strong feelings involved in the whole issue, but then again, I also see MANY of the other _BIG_ opensource projects really relying on such kind of income. Which ones, in particular? The four best-known OSS projects are Apache, Linux, Mozilla, and OpenOffice, and there are no outside ads at all on apache.org, kernel.org, mozilla.org, or openoffice.org (though mozilla.org does advertise its own branded merchandise and solicit donations -- it's also a registered non-profit). Ditto for Perl (cpan.org), Python (python.org), Gnome (gnome.org), and KDE (kde.org) -- no banner ads. FreeBSD has discrete icons at the bottom of its site (freebsd.org) linking to the FreeBSD mall, but so far, I'm striking out completely finding a major OSS project that runs banner ads for revenue. That shouldn't be surprising, given how profoundly hated banner ads are in our community. All the best, David ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Curtis L. Olson wrote: I want to bring a new subject before the group. In the past we have discussed potential income sources for the FG project, so I think it's fair to discuss another option since the opportunity has introduced itself today. There is a company that makes hardware (3d glasses, head tracker, voice recognition, joysticks, gaming chairs, etc.) that is of potential interest to flight sim enthusiasts. If we put banner adds on our web site, and one of our visiters clicks through and buys something from this company (being referred from our site) then we would get a 10% commission from the sale. I believe there is some flexibility in the design of the banner so perhaps we could have some input so it's not *too* obnoxious. (?) But any way you cut it, putting advertisements on our web site will change the look and feel of our web site and probably influence the impression our project projects to the world ... Is this a direction we want to explore? It wouldn't have to be a permanent thing. I think we could choose to end the arrangement at any time. We stop referring potential customers ... no more commissions for us ... I think it's that simple. Any thoughts? Any strong feelings? We get a pretty good chunk of daily hits so we do have some referring power to swing around. What do you think? Wrong way down the slippery slope? Good idea? I'll buy anything with Curt's personal AAA*** rating? Would it be a single company or a space broker ? Would you be able to control the content of the advertisement ? I am not opposed if it is related to aviation or computing. -Fred ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
On Friday 16 July 2004 22:02, Curtis L. Olson wrote: I want to bring a new subject before the group. In the past we have discussed potential income sources for the FG project, so I think it's fair to discuss another option since the opportunity has introduced itself today. There is a company that makes hardware (3d glasses, head tracker, voice recognition, joysticks, gaming chairs, etc.) that is of potential interest to flight sim enthusiasts. If we put banner adds on our web site, and one of our visiters clicks through and buys something from this company (being referred from our site) then we would get a 10% commission from the sale. I believe there is some flexibility in the design of the banner so perhaps we could have some input so it's not *too* obnoxious. (?) But any way you cut it, putting advertisements on our web site will change the look and feel of our web site and probably influence the impression our project projects to the world ... Is this a direction we want to explore? It wouldn't have to be a permanent thing. I think we could choose to end the arrangement at any time. We stop referring potential customers ... no more commissions for us ... I think it's that simple. Any thoughts? Any strong feelings? We get a pretty good chunk of daily hits so we do have some referring power to swing around. What do you think? Wrong way down the slippery slope? Good idea? I'll buy anything with Curt's personal AAA*** rating? Thanks, Curt. IMO, money exists and until there's either a well thought out alternative, or no further need for it, you might as well try to get along with it. However, there is a degree of implied endorsement and association so I think that anything 'endorsed' in this way should be checked for quality to ensure that it doesn't give the project a bad name. Considering this specific example, I'd suggest that some thought is given to the issue of compatibility between the product and FG i.e. they should send you samples so you can ensure that it all works with FG and is up to FG's quality and standards;) LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:02:31 -0500 Curtis L. Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any thoughts? Any strong feelings? We get a pretty good chunk of daily hits so we do have some referring power to swing around. What do you think? Wrong way down the slippery slope? Good idea? I'll buy anything with Curt's personal AAA*** rating? I haven't been around long and haven't done much of anything yet, but my personal opinion is that this is a very good idea. 1. I doubt the money figures would be huge, but any is better than none. It's unfair (and even ridiculous) that people like you who spend most of the time keeping the project going are also people coughing up personal money for things like keeping the website up. 2. The typical banner ad is not that obtrusive these days. Furthermore, I suspect it's a small group that would be at the web page frequently enough to find the banner ads annoying (viz. the project developers and the most active users). And I dunno about IE, but most Linux browsers these days have the ability to Block all images from site www.companybuyingadsonflightgearsite.com, so a visitor can turn off the banner ads if desired. 3. If the terms are that the deal can be cancelled without paying a penalty of any sort, then if we try it and it sucks horribly, we bail. 4. It's not porn being advertised; it's stuff that's relevant to the population of visitors to some degree. I don't mind so much seeing ads for stuff I might actually find interesting. Yes, not having to run banner ads for money would be better; but as a trade for some money for the project, I think it'd be a good thing. My only concern is the accounting of it. I presume that you'd have to take them at their word as to whether someone who clicked through then purchased something while there? -c -- Chris Metzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove snip-me. to email) As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I have become civilized. - Chief Luther Standing Bear pgpJbjMFqIYfm.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
On July 16, 2004 05:17 pm, Frederic Bouvier wrote: Would it be a single company or a space broker ? Would you be able to control the content of the advertisement ? I am not opposed if it is related to aviation or computing. -Fred What he said. If we do go ahead with this idea, would it also be a good idea to offer our advertisment space for free to aviation forums such as www.airliners.net in return for free advertisment space on their site? Regards, Ampere ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Lee Elliott wrote: IMO, money exists and until there's either a well thought out alternative, or no further need for it, you might as well try to get along with it. Clever way to put it. :-) However, there is a degree of implied endorsement and association so I think that anything 'endorsed' in this way should be checked for quality to ensure that it doesn't give the project a bad name. Considering this specific example, I'd suggest that some thought is given to the issue of compatibility between the product and FG i.e. they should send you samples so you can ensure that it all works with FG and is up to FG's quality and standards;) Yes, in my most recent reply to this company, I asked specifically about FG support (and support for operating systems not owned and operated by MS.) It's not necessarily clear from their web page exactly how their products interface with the computer and how they work ... hopefully we can get a bit of a better handle on that before we proceed. In terms of quality here is what they proposed which seems reasonable since we face a chicken/egg problem here. They don't want to send free hardware to any random person that applies for their program and promises to post an add on their site. So they propose that we run an add for a week or two or however long it takes to generate a couple sales. Once that happens, then they feel their risk of loss is minimized and they would be willing to send a sample or two of something for review. It seems like a reasonable approach. They aren't unwilling to send a sample, but they don't want to be taken advantage of. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Lee Elliott wrote Sent: 16 July 2004 22:18 To: FlightGear developers discussions Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site? On Friday 16 July 2004 22:02, Curtis L. Olson wrote: I want to bring a new subject before the group. In the past we have discussed potential income sources for the FG project, so I think it's fair to discuss another option since the opportunity has introduced itself today. There is a company that makes hardware (3d glasses, head tracker, voice recognition, joysticks, gaming chairs, etc.) that is of potential interest to flight sim enthusiasts. If we put banner adds on our web site, and one of our visiters clicks through and buys something from this company (being referred from our site) then we would get a 10% commission from the sale. I believe there is some flexibility in the design of the banner so perhaps we could have some input so it's not *too* obnoxious. (?) But any way you cut it, putting advertisements on our web site will change the look and feel of our web site and probably influence the impression our project projects to the world ... Is this a direction we want to explore? It wouldn't have to be a permanent thing. I think we could choose to end the arrangement at any time. We stop referring potential customers ... no more commissions for us ... I think it's that simple. Any thoughts? Any strong feelings? We get a pretty good chunk of daily hits so we do have some referring power to swing around. What do you think? Wrong way down the slippery slope? Good idea? I'll buy anything with Curt's personal AAA*** rating? Thanks, Curt. IMO, money exists and until there's either a well thought out alternative, or no further need for it, you might as well try to get along with it. However, there is a degree of implied endorsement and association so I think that anything 'endorsed' in this way should be checked for quality to ensure that it doesn't give the project a bad name. Considering this specific example, I'd suggest that some thought is given to the issue of compatibility between the product and FG i.e. they should send you samples so you can ensure that it all works with FG and is up to FG's quality and standards;) I agree with Lee, even if he has his tongue in is cheek. We should go for it, but there is an element of endorsement here. Are we (or is Curt) satisfied that the products on offer are of a suitable standard, and is the company's record OK? Regards, Vivian ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
On Friday 16 July 2004 22:41, Curtis L. Olson wrote: Lee Elliott wrote: IMO, money exists and until there's either a well thought out alternative, or no further need for it, you might as well try to get along with it. Clever way to put it. :-) However, there is a degree of implied endorsement and association so I think that anything 'endorsed' in this way should be checked for quality to ensure that it doesn't give the project a bad name. Considering this specific example, I'd suggest that some thought is given to the issue of compatibility between the product and FG i.e. they should send you samples so you can ensure that it all works with FG and is up to FG's quality and standards;) Yes, in my most recent reply to this company, I asked specifically about FG support (and support for operating systems not owned and operated by MS.) It's not necessarily clear from their web page exactly how their products interface with the computer and how they work ... hopefully we can get a bit of a better handle on that before we proceed. In terms of quality here is what they proposed which seems reasonable since we face a chicken/egg problem here. They don't want to send free hardware to any random person that applies for their program and promises to post an add on their site. So they propose that we run an add for a week or two or however long it takes to generate a couple sales. Once that happens, then they feel their risk of loss is minimized and they would be willing to send a sample or two of something for review. It seems like a reasonable approach. They aren't unwilling to send a sample, but they don't want to be taken advantage of. Regards, Curt. Sounds reasonable. Best see what the following time-zones think though;) LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Curtis L. Olson schrieb: I want to bring a new subject before the group. [...] If we put banner adds on our web site, and one of our visiters clicks through and buys something from this company (being referred from our site) then we would get a 10% commission from the sale. I believe there is some flexibility in the design of the banner so perhaps we could have some input so it's not *too* obnoxious. (?) As soon as someone gets some money out of a volunteered project, chances are that it causes bad blood. So I think we should make sure that this isn't likely to happen. One way I can think of, is to publish reliably the income and how it is used. (And for bigger spendings have a poll) (*) I definitely trust Curt to handle our money very well - and I don't want to give anyone the chance to cause trouble just by being jealous. On the other hand I've got no problems with banner ads, as long as they aren't annoying. I.e. *no* pop up and -if possible- no blinking or even animations. Additionally, if we could test their hardware and know that it works well with FG we can IMHO even put an official recomendation on our page. CU, Christian (*) The other way I can think of is to create a real foundation - but there's very much non-coding work related with that. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Speaking as a user/contributor - not as a member of the project, so this is just my personal opinion: Assuming there are no Linux drivers, how would they feel about GPL'd ones? Personally, while I much prefer GPL software and would really like it if they did GPL a Linux driver, I'm not completely down on close-source stuff either - you pays your money and takes your choice. It wouldn't bother me either if someone associated with the FG community developed closed-source drivers for their h/w. While it would mean that FG couldn't distribute the drivers, at least it would mean that Linux drivers were distributed with the h/w, which would have to be a good thing. And of course, I'd expect that if someone did do some closed-source drivers they'd get paid for it. Like I say - just my personal opinion. LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: Not a good idea (was Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?)
On Friday 16 July 2004 23:45, David Megginson wrote: Curtis L. Olson wrote: But any way you cut it, putting advertisements on our web site will change the look and feel of our web site and probably influence the impression our project projects to the world ... Yes, it will make a significant difference to FlightGear and a lot of extra hassle for Curt. We'll look less like a friendly, volunteer Open Source project and more like a corporate Open Source startup. That may significantly change the kinds of volunteers we attract and the way we're treated by conference organizers and the press, as well as users' expectations of code stability, support, etc. People don't volunteer to help with corporate OSS projects like JBoss the same way that they contribute to, say, Mozilla, Apache, Linux, or FlightGear (and even JBoss doesn't have ads on its site, I don't think). It's hard to find any really friendly OSS projects with wide participation *and* ads on their site. When I was paying to keep the main SAX site at megginson.com and getting many thousands of hits each day, I was also briefly tempted to run ads to help cover expenses, but I realized that doing so would have changed the way people saw and used SAX. I'd suggest trying some different approaches: 1. Set up a PayPal voluntary donation button on FlightGear.org -- no one will mind that (but see tax issues below). 2. If you cannot cover expenses with the voluntary donations, set up a separate *.com site (flightgear.com was already taken, last I checked). You can use it to distribute extra information, set up forums, etc., and perhaps you can run ads and offer consulting services through it. 3. If you absolutely *must* run ads on flightgear.org, please use Google text ads and not banner ads. That last point is important. Managing an advertising account is a tricky job, and not one that you want to do on top of everything else. With Google ads, you know you'll get paid and you don't have to worry about the advertisers. Another important point is tax. FlightGear is not a legal not-for-profit organization, so I think that any ad revenue that comes in will have to go onto Curt's tax return, and he'll end up paying a big chunk of it to the government. The same is true for a PayPal donation button. So, in the end, my advice is not to do it. If you want to make a living or partial living from FlightGear, set up a separate commercial site and be prepared to learn about CRM, tax laws, incorporation laws, legal fees, insurance, NDA's, contracts, and all the other fun that comes with running your own small business. If you just want to cover expenses, try posting to the list with a subject line like Need new $500 hard drive, and I'm sure that a lot of us will be willing to pitch in. All the best, David These are good points. Glad it's not my call. LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Good morining, just dropping in from one of the other timezones ;-) I've also got some thoughts regarding this whole sponsoring idea, and to be direct: I do have to admit that I wouldn't have any problems with such a model, actually it's just a couple of days ago that I talked to other FlightGear users about similar ideas - indeed, even exactly the one mentioned by Curtis: having a company that sells flight simulator peripherals advertise on FlightGear.org - or even: -*now*, I know you guys are going to call me a pervert: ;-) WITHIN each particular FlightGear release, so that discussion - while being held privately - it was caused by Curtis' mail regarding FlightGear financing. Among these ideas I also suggested to set up some kind of BugZilla system or anything else for that matter, that supports feature requests by users and directly link such a system to some simple donation system, that way it might be pretty easy for users to make small donations like $ 5.00 and assign or even SPLIT their donation to certain feature request, e.g. users would want to to be able to say: I vote for feature request X by giving 2 bucks of overall 5 bucks donation to it The developers could then see which feature requests seem to be most urgent and also (financially) SUPPORTED by the community. Of course this whole thing would still be only OPTIONALLY available, but I do think that something like that might work - in particular if you think about features that professional users might need. You could even go one step further by offering companies to make custom adjustments to FlightGear, maybe even offer manufacturers of simulator peripherals to add support for their hardware to FlightGear - either provided they give out some samples or simply financially support FlightGear. Getting back to the X-Plane example that I mentioned meanwhile in some of my posts: the author of X-Plane is doing a great job in that regard, by offering specific customization - the result being that X-Plane is now also used by some MAJOR aviation companies for _serious_ work. And now, I do of course remember the argument being made that FlightGear is not supposed to become everybody's swiss army knife, well I think as soon as there is financiall support involved it would be perfectly acceptable - in particular if parts of the necessary work could really be directly used for FlightGear itself, so that other users might benefit from it, speaking of adding support for certain simulator hardware, this would definitely be the case. I *suppose* FlightGear developers could also easily adapt FlightGear in a manner to allow more extraordinary features, this also to attract even another target audience - professional users. So, getting back to FlightGear, I do think it is quite a good idea to advertise for such companies or products which might directly benefit a FlightGear user, simulator hardware stores OR EVEN -manufacturers (!) are certainly in that range. And also I do agree that there should of coure be some previous experience with the hardware being offered BEFORE anything is recommended, just to make sure that people aren't buying stuff that e.g. isn't even supported under linux. Also, I like the idea of samples being sent in in order for FlightGear evaluation. Of course there should be remarks added to those products currently not being sufficiently supported by FlightGear, maybe based on the referrer id to the company's page or anything like that. But all visitors from the FlightGear pages should definitely get the necessary information, possibly they should really use the referrer information in order to display certain additional information. That way you could prevent users buying stuff (also with the motivation to HELP FlightGear)just in order to learn later that the stuff they purchased doesn't even work with FlightGear. THIS would of course be extremely frustrating and should be prevented by all means. So, if the said company itself is not willing to send out any hardware BEFORE there are purchasements being made, they should be asked to do the necessary examination and test the hardware themselves, in order to verify if there are any problems with certain hardware components. Getting even more extreme, one might ponder about offering that said company to integrate their webpage address or even company logo directly into some of the future official FlightGear releases. I am sure simulator hardware company would be interested in a deal such as that one. Also, I do remember that X-Plane itself displays CHPRODUCTS' and NVIDIA's internet addresses during startup...I would really doubt that the author doesn't get anything in return for that ;-) But I am not even talking about modifying FlightGear's splash screen in such a way, even though personally, I really wouldn't have any problems with anything like that at all - I understand that this is an opensource project and that there needs to be financial support: for an egoistic user it's all
Re: Not a good idea (was Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?)
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:53:51 +0100, Lee wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Friday 16 July 2004 23:45, David Megginson wrote: ...wisdom omitted... These are good points. Glad it's not my call. ..amen. ..they want banner ads, they ship us free hardware and pay us to write GPL drivers etc for it. No free hardware etc, no deal, there's more fish out there. ;-) ..I mean, there else do they go? ;-) We _can_ ask this much. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Advertisements on the FG web site?
Curtis wrote: I want to bring a new subject before the group. In the past we have discussed potential income sources for the FG project, so I think it's fair to discuss another option since the opportunity has introduced itself today. There is a company that makes hardware (3d glasses, head tracker, voice recognition, joysticks, gaming chairs, etc.) that is of potential interest to flight sim enthusiasts. If we put banner adds on our web site, and one of our visiters clicks through and buys something from this company (being referred from our site) then we would get a 10% commission from the sale. I believe there is some flexibility in the design of the banner so perhaps we could have some input so it's not *too* obnoxious. (?) But any way you cut it, putting advertisements on our web site will change the look and feel of our web site and probably influence the impression our project projects to the world ... Is this a direction we want to explore? It wouldn't have to be a permanent thing. I think we could choose to end the arrangement at any time. We stop referring potential customers ... no more commissions for us ... I think it's that simple. Any thoughts? Any strong feelings? We get a pretty good chunk of daily hits so we do have some referring power to swing around. What do you think? Wrong way down the slippery slope? Good idea? I'll buy anything with Curt's personal AAA*** rating? If the intent is to simply provide advertising space that is one approach; OTH if the intent is to provide an endorsement (implied or direct) that the displayed hardware operates and is supported by the FG project that creates a wide range of issues related to design and development, testing and integration, support, and compatability over the life of the product and project. Not to mention the legal and tax implications of a non-profit organization operating in a commercial enterprise. Think long and hard before stepping off that cliff... Given a vote, in either case I would decline. Just too many potential headaches and time sinks. Regards John W. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
