Re: Fault in Terminal Server causing server to hang on boot?

[Olivier Nicole]

Rick,

> I'm reaching out in hopes that someone may have seen something similar
> and can shed some light.  Consider an HP DL360p G8 with FreeBSD
> 8.3-RELEASE-p4, serial port cabled to a Cisco 2800 series terminal
> server.  Console is configured in the following manner:
> 
> /boot/loader.conf: console="comconsole"
> /etc/ttys: ttyu0   "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600"   vt100  on secure
> 
> The system hangs at boot while the terminal server is cabled to the
> serial port.  Output is displayed on the video console to the point
> that loader loads /boot/loader.conf.  The system freezes.  I have no
> visibility into the terminal server configuration or port which the
> hardware is cabled, but as soon as the serial cable is pulled from the
> serial port, the system resumes booting and is remotely accessible
> (via ssh) when it has come up.
> 
> Attached to a different terminal server (same model), the system boots
> fine.  Not sure what the fault is on the terminal server.  What
> possible conditions would cause the system to freeze while the serial
> port is attached?  Why would loader care about these conditions?  The
> desired result would be that the system boots completely despite any
> fault with the terminal server.

Obviously the port on both terminal servers are not configured the
same way.

There is a number of configuration that can apply to a serial port:
speed, flow control, readiness, etc.

Can you boot with your server attached to the working terminal server
and then change to the other terminal server? What would it do?

If you were asked to connect to a terminal server and not given the
way to configure it, just refuse to use the one that is not
working. That should be the guy with the password to the terminal
server who should help to reconfigure the port.

Best regards,

olivier
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Fault in Terminal Server causing server to hang on boot?

[Rick Miller]

Hi All,

I'm reaching out in hopes that someone may have seen something similar
and can shed some light.  Consider an HP DL360p G8 with FreeBSD
8.3-RELEASE-p4, serial port cabled to a Cisco 2800 series terminal
server.  Console is configured in the following manner:

/boot/loader.conf: console="comconsole"
/etc/ttys: ttyu0   "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600"   vt100  on secure

The system hangs at boot while the terminal server is cabled to the
serial port.  Output is displayed on the video console to the point
that loader loads /boot/loader.conf.  The system freezes.  I have no
visibility into the terminal server configuration or port which the
hardware is cabled, but as soon as the serial cable is pulled from the
serial port, the system resumes booting and is remotely accessible
(via ssh) when it has come up.

Attached to a different terminal server (same model), the system boots
fine.  Not sure what the fault is on the terminal server.  What
possible conditions would cause the system to freeze while the serial
port is attached?  Why would loader care about these conditions?  The
desired result would be that the system boots completely despite any
fault with the terminal server.

-- 
Take care
Rick Miller
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Terminal Server/BREAK_TO_DEBUGGER

[Marco Steinbach]

Hi there,


I'm trying to break a FreeBSD/i386 machine into the debugger via serial 
console connected to an older Avocent CPS 1600 serial terminal server. 
I'm using cu on another FreeBSD/i386 machine to connect to one of the 
other serial ports of the Avocent.


The CPS offers a "port break" command for creating a break condition on 
an attached serial port, but that doesn't trigger anything on the 
receiving FreeBSD machine.


Using a direct serial connection (just 2x3, GND) between the machines 
works, though.


I realize this being quite a long shot -- Someone ever used such a box 
successfuly for the purpose ?



MfG CoCo
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Re: [Fwd: Re: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server]

[Gerard]

On Sat, 02 Aug 2008 00:06:46 +
FreeBSD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>I am posting this question again since so far I have not been able to 
>find any solution. But I do believe there is one -- which I cannot
>find and hopefully someone will be able to share her/his effective
>solution with me.

If you cannot get an answer here, you might try the Microsoft site.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/windowsserver/bb430837.aspx

From time to time I have gotten some useful information there myself.

-- 
Gerard
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Romeo wasn't bilked in a day.

Walt Kelly, "Ten Ever-Lovin' Blue-Eyed Years With Pogo"


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

[Fwd: Re: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server]

[FreeBSD]

Dear List members

I am posting this question again since so far I have not been able to 
find any solution. But I do believe there is one -- which I cannot find 
and hopefully someone will be able to share her/his effective solution 
with me.


Thanks

--- Begin Message ---

   Hello, is 3389 filtered in any way between you and that server?
   On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:37 PM, FreeBSD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   wrote:

 Dear folks
 my sincere apologies if this has been discussed earlier, which I
 seriously doubt, since even after googling for nearly five days I
 couldn't find any solution.
 Recently my company has updated their server to Windows 2003. The
 earlier 2000 server didn't have SSL enabled, so rdp/rdesktop worked
 for me without any problem. But now, as I try to connect to the
 server, it simply gives me
 ERROR: recv: Connection reset by peer
 I know for a fact that the server is working fine, since all IE and
 remote desktop softwares are working (they have to install the
 certificate at the beginning, once). But how can I connect from my
 freebsd box?
 any pointers/links sujjestions are highly welcome.
 Thanks.
 ___
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 [3]http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
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 "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"

   --
   regards,
   dg
   "using fsdb(8) and clri(8) was like climbing Mount Everest in sandals
   and shorts.
   Since writing that, I've tried them more than once and discovered that
   I was wrong.
   You don't get the shorts." -- M.W. Lucas

References

   1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   2. mailto:freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
   3. http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
   4. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
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Re: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server

[darko]

What ver. of rdesktop are you running? Are you running the latest?

sorry, I don't know enough about MS encryption or their TS services to
suggest any advanced rdesktop tweaks. Wonder if you can run rdesktop in
verbose mode and look at any logs it spews out.




On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 5:40 PM, FreeBSD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Dear Darko
>
> Thanks for your mail.
>
> To answer your question, no, we are on the same network and from my machine
> everything is open. Also, I tried it from my home, which has the basic
> firewall allowing me to connect to whereever I want (I tried it with no
> firewall as well), nothing worked.
>
> Since my office lan can connect to the secured TServer using IE and other
> client from windows, and both my office lan and home can connect to the
> non-SSL TServer using rdesktop, I am suspecting I might be needing different
> client.
>
> any other pointers / links welcome
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> darko gavrilovic wrote:
>
> Hello, is 3389 filtered in any way between you and that server?
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:37 PM, FreeBSD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Dear folks
>>
>> my sincere apologies if this has been discussed earlier, which I seriously
>> doubt, since even after googling for nearly five days I couldn't find any
>> solution.
>>
>> Recently my company has updated their server to Windows 2003. The earlier
>> 2000 server didn't have SSL enabled, so rdp/rdesktop worked for me without
>> any problem. But now, as I try to connect to the server, it simply gives me
>> ERROR: recv: Connection reset by peer
>>
>> I know for a fact that the server is working fine, since all IE and remote
>> desktop softwares are working (they have to install the certificate at the
>> beginning, once). But how can I connect from my freebsd box?
>>
>> any pointers/links sujjestions are highly welcome.
>>
>> Thanks.
>> ___
>> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list
>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]"
>>
>
>
>
> --
> regards,
> dg
>
> "using fsdb(8) and clri(8) was like climbing Mount Everest in sandals and
> shorts.
> Since writing that, I've tried them more than once and discovered that I
> was wrong.
> You don't get the shorts." -- M.W. Lucas
>
>
>


-- 
regards,
dg

"..but the more you use clever tricks, the less support you'll get ..." --
M.W.Lucas
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RE: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server

[Tamouh H.]

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of FreeBSD
> Sent: July 24, 2008 5:41 PM
> To: darko gavrilovic
> Cc: User Questions
> Subject: Re: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server
> 
> Dear Darko
> 
> Thanks for your mail.
> 
> To answer your question, no, we are on the same network and 
> from my machine everything is open. Also, I tried it from my 
> home, which has the basic firewall allowing me to connect to 
> whereever I want (I tried it with no firewall as well), 
> nothing worked.
> 
> Since my office lan can connect to the secured TServer using 
> IE and other client from windows, and both my office lan and 
> home can connect to the non-SSL TServer using rdesktop, I am 
> suspecting I might be needing different client.
> 
> any other pointers / links welcome
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> darko gavrilovic wrote:
> > Hello, is 3389 filtered in any way between you and that server?
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:37 PM, FreeBSD <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> >
> > Dear folks
> >
> > my sincere apologies if this has been discussed earlier, which I
> > seriously doubt, since even after googling for nearly 
> five days I
> > couldn't find any solution.
> >
> > Recently my company has updated their server to Windows 
> 2003. The
> > earlier 2000 server didn't have SSL enabled, so rdp/rdesktop
> > worked for me without any problem. But now, as I try to 
> connect to
> > the server, it simply gives me
> > ERROR: recv: Connection reset by peer
> >
> > I know for a fact that the server is working fine, since all IE
> > and remote desktop softwares are working (they have to 
> install the
> > certificate at the beginning, once). But how can I 
> connect from my
> > freebsd box?
> >
> > any pointers/links sujjestions are highly welcome.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > ___
> > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
> > <mailto:freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> mailing list
> > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to
> > "[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > regards,
> > dg
> >
> > "using fsdb(8) and clri(8) was like climbing Mount Everest 
> in sandals 
> > and shorts.
> > Since writing that, I've tried them more than once and 
> discovered that 
> > I was wrong.
> > You don't get the shorts." -- M.W. Lucas
> 
> ___
> freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list 
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to 
> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> 

So I take it the encryption level on the TS server is set to High and you're 
using a certificate, or is it just the security level is set to High ?

Which RDP version the server is running? I know there was a recent update by 
MSFT for RDP connections, but I don't know if this fixes the problem or not. 
Also, what version of rdpdesktop are you running?

Tamouh


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Re: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server

[FreeBSD]

Dear Darko

Thanks for your mail.

To answer your question, no, we are on the same network and from my 
machine everything is open. Also, I tried it from my home, which has the 
basic firewall allowing me to connect to whereever I want (I tried it 
with no firewall as well), nothing worked.


Since my office lan can connect to the secured TServer using IE and 
other client from windows, and both my office lan and home can connect 
to the non-SSL TServer using rdesktop, I am suspecting I might be 
needing different client.


any other pointers / links welcome

Thanks


darko gavrilovic wrote:

Hello, is 3389 filtered in any way between you and that server?


On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:37 PM, FreeBSD <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


Dear folks

my sincere apologies if this has been discussed earlier, which I
seriously doubt, since even after googling for nearly five days I
couldn't find any solution.

Recently my company has updated their server to Windows 2003. The
earlier 2000 server didn't have SSL enabled, so rdp/rdesktop
worked for me without any problem. But now, as I try to connect to
the server, it simply gives me
ERROR: recv: Connection reset by peer

I know for a fact that the server is working fine, since all IE
and remote desktop softwares are working (they have to install the
certificate at the beginning, once). But how can I connect from my
freebsd box?

any pointers/links sujjestions are highly welcome.

Thanks.
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 mailing list
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"




--
regards,
dg

"using fsdb(8) and clri(8) was like climbing Mount Everest in sandals 
and shorts.
Since writing that, I've tried them more than once and discovered that 
I was wrong.

You don't get the shorts." -- M.W. Lucas


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Re: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server

[Steve Bertrand]

Wojciech Puchar wrote:
doubt, since even after googling for nearly five days I couldn't find 
any solution.


Recently my company has updated their server to Windows 2003. The 
earlier 2000 server didn't have SSL enabled, so rdp/rdesktop worked 
for me without any problem. But now, as I try to connect to the 
server, it simply gives me

ERROR: recv: Connection reset by peer


why such questions are on FreeBSD list ?

rdp/rdesktop is not FreeBSD specific at all, and FreeBSD is not Windows.

search the rdesktop mailing list etc. and ask there!


Did you even consider the possibility that the OP is connecting to a 
terminal/rdp server from a FreeBSD workstation?


I know I've done it numerous times in the past. I think that if this is 
the case, its very FreeBSD related.


Steve
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Re: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server

[Wojciech Puchar]

doubt, since even after googling for nearly five days I couldn't find any 
solution.


Recently my company has updated their server to Windows 2003. The earlier 
2000 server didn't have SSL enabled, so rdp/rdesktop worked for me without 
any problem. But now, as I try to connect to the server, it simply gives me

ERROR: recv: Connection reset by peer


why such questions are on FreeBSD list ?

rdp/rdesktop is not FreeBSD specific at all, and FreeBSD is not Windows.

search the rdesktop mailing list etc. and ask there!
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Re: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server

[Paul Schmehl]

--On July 22, 2008 11:21:48 PM -0400 Steve Bertrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:



Paul Schmehl wrote:


To the OP - here's what I get when testing from a FreeBSD box to one of
our servers:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] telnet hostname.utdallas.edu 3389



Connection closed by foreign host.


Does your server have SSL enabled? The OP stated that prior to upgrade,
the box did NOT have SSL enabled.



RDP has three types of encryption capability: RDP (native), Negotiate and 
SSL.  The default is RDP, which uses RSA keys.  To setup SSL you also have 
to setup TLS and exchange certs.  The OP *may* have that setup.  I don't 
recall.  Ours use the native RDP encryption layer with RSA keys and are 
set to "Client compatible", which means they will use the highest key 
strength possible - either 56 bits or 128 bits.  I think most, if not all, 
of our clients use 128 bits, but I haven't verified that.


Paul Schmehl
If it isn't already obvious,
my opinions are my own and not
those of my employer.

Re: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server

[Steve Bertrand]

Paul Schmehl wrote:

To the OP - here's what I get when testing from a FreeBSD box to one of 
our servers:


[EMAIL PROTECTED] telnet hostname.utdallas.edu 3389



Connection closed by foreign host.


Does your server have SSL enabled? The OP stated that prior to upgrade, 
the box did NOT have SSL enabled.


The access denied message you 
cited appears to be a firewall or acl issue that prevents the server 
from accepting connections from your FreeBSD box.


Perhaps from a Service Pack whereas Microsoft could have enabled it's 
inbound 'firewall', thinking it was appropriate.


# nmap -sS -P0 -p 3389 ip_of_rdp_server

Steve
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Re: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server

[Steve Bertrand]

Paul Schmehl wrote:



Umm..no.  In Windows-land, Terminal Services == rdp (port 3389 TCP) but 
a terminal *server* is used specifically to allow mutliple (as in more 
than the default limit of two) concurrent sessions and requires the 
purchase of additional licenses.  Now, *maybe* the OP really meant 
terminal *services* but he wrote "secured Windows 2003 terminal 
*server*", and that is a different animal altogether.


Ok, fair enough. I was hasty in reading the OP's original post.


Failing that, see if there is a 'feature' to drop back to non-SSL mode
for RDP for the time being, to at least get the FBSD boxen to 'see' the
service. Troubleshooting can commence from there.

If you like sending your credentials across the internet in clear text, 
be my guest.  I wouldn't suggest to the OP that he ask his enterprise to 
expose themselves to that level of risk.


I'll rephrase... if there is the possibility to adding a temporary, 
non-privileged user to the enterprise network that you are currently 
testing that only has specific rights to authenticate via Terminal 
Server and no rights otherwise whatsoever, then I would try that.


Commencing the test, I would immediately remove the user account.

Otherwise, I would configure a separate Windows 2k3 box, exactly the 
same as the one that was upgraded, and test the scenario in a closed, 
less-sensitive environment.


The logs should provide guidance to the cause of the problem. I'm more 
familiar with FreeBSD, so I would start there. However, perhaps the 
Windows logging system has something to offer.


I would still try nmap and telnet, and the other tests.

Especially given the fact that OP never specified that he would be 
sending credentials over a public network at all.


Besides... in the original post, it was clarified that the old server 
did NOT have any encryption whatsoever.


Steve
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Re: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server

[Paul Schmehl]

--On July 22, 2008 9:26:27 PM -0500 Paul Schmehl 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



--On July 22, 2008 10:03:36 PM -0400 Steve Bertrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:


Umm..it's a terminal server


...ummm, in Windows-land, Terminal Services == rdp (port 3389 TCP).



Umm..no.  In Windows-land, Terminal Services == rdp (port 3389 TCP) but
a terminal *server* is used specifically to allow mutliple (as in more
than the default limit of two) concurrent sessions and requires the
purchase of additional licenses.  Now, *maybe* the OP really meant
terminal *services* but he wrote "secured Windows 2003 terminal
*server*", and that is a different animal altogether.



To the OP - here's what I get when testing from a FreeBSD box to one of 
our servers:


[EMAIL PROTECTED] telnet hostname.utdallas.edu 3389
Trying 10.110.21.80...
Connected to hostname.utdallas.edu.
Escape character is '^]'.
test
^C
login test
Connection closed by foreign host.

So, if a connection closed message is what you get, it appears to be a 
timeout after a failure to authenticate.  The access denied message you 
cited appears to be a firewall or acl issue that prevents the server from 
accepting connections from your FreeBSD box.


BTW, I use rdesktop routinely to rdp to various Windows 2003 servers, but 
I haven't tested it against a terminal server.  I'll try that and let you 
know what I find.


Paul Schmehl
If it isn't already obvious,
my opinions are my own and not
those of my employer.

Re: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server

[Paul Schmehl]

--On July 22, 2008 10:03:36 PM -0400 Steve Bertrand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:


Umm..it's a terminal server


...ummm, in Windows-land, Terminal Services == rdp (port 3389 TCP).



Umm..no.  In Windows-land, Terminal Services == rdp (port 3389 TCP) but a 
terminal *server* is used specifically to allow mutliple (as in more than 
the default limit of two) concurrent sessions and requires the purchase of 
additional licenses.  Now, *maybe* the OP really meant terminal *services* 
but he wrote "secured Windows 2003 terminal *server*", and that is a 
different animal altogether.



To the OP:

If NMap is installed on the FBSD box, try:

# nmap -sS -P0 -p 3389 ip_of_rdp_box

..if the port appears open, try:

# telnet ip_of_rdp_box 3389

...and see what you get.

If you see nothing, refer to the logs of the 2k3 server (Event Viewer I
believe it is called).

Failing that, see if there is a 'feature' to drop back to non-SSL mode
for RDP for the time being, to at least get the FBSD boxen to 'see' the
service. Troubleshooting can commence from there.



If you like sending your credentials across the internet in clear text, be 
my guest.  I wouldn't suggest to the OP that he ask his enterprise to 
expose themselves to that level of risk.


Paul Schmehl
If it isn't already obvious,
my opinions are my own and not
those of my employer.

Re: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server

[Steve Bertrand]

Paul Schmehl wrote:
--On July 22, 2008 9:17:45 PM -0400 Simon Chang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:



Recently my company has updated their server to Windows 2003. The
earlier 2000 server didn't have SSL enabled, so rdp/rdesktop worked for
me without any problem. But now, as I try to connect to the server, it
simply gives me ERROR: recv: Connection reset by peer



Did you make sure that the server has remote administration enabled?
I believe that, by default, Win2k3 Servers have RDP disabled.  Check
with your admins about that.



Umm..it's a terminal server


...ummm, in Windows-land, Terminal Services == rdp (port 3389 TCP).

To the OP:

If NMap is installed on the FBSD box, try:

# nmap -sS -P0 -p 3389 ip_of_rdp_box

..if the port appears open, try:

# telnet ip_of_rdp_box 3389

...and see what you get.

If you see nothing, refer to the logs of the 2k3 server (Event Viewer I 
believe it is called).


Failing that, see if there is a 'feature' to drop back to non-SSL mode 
for RDP for the time being, to at least get the FBSD boxen to 'see' the 
service. Troubleshooting can commence from there.


Steve
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Re: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server

[Paul Schmehl]

--On July 22, 2008 9:17:45 PM -0400 Simon Chang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:



Recently my company has updated their server to Windows 2003. The
earlier 2000 server didn't have SSL enabled, so rdp/rdesktop worked for
me without any problem. But now, as I try to connect to the server, it
simply gives me ERROR: recv: Connection reset by peer



Did you make sure that the server has remote administration enabled?
I believe that, by default, Win2k3 Servers have RDP disabled.  Check
with your admins about that.



Umm..it's a terminal server

Paul Schmehl
If it isn't already obvious,
my opinions are my own and not
those of my employer.

Re: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server

[darko gavrilovic]

what happens when you type this?

# openssl s_client -connect :3389

you should get a response of "CONNECTED" or something to that effect.

you might have to change the 3389 if you have rdp listening on another port.




On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:17 PM, Simon Chang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Recently my company has updated their server to Windows 2003. The earlier
> > 2000 server didn't have SSL enabled, so rdp/rdesktop worked for me
> without
> > any problem. But now, as I try to connect to the server, it simply gives
> me
> > ERROR: recv: Connection reset by peer
> >
>
> Did you make sure that the server has remote administration enabled?
> I believe that, by default, Win2k3 Servers have RDP disabled.  Check
> with your admins about that.
>
> SC
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-- 
regards,
dg

"using fsdb(8) and clri(8) was like climbing Mount Everest in sandals and
shorts.
Since writing that, I've tried them more than once and discovered that I was
wrong.
You don't get the shorts." -- M.W. Lucas
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Re: connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server

[Simon Chang]

> Recently my company has updated their server to Windows 2003. The earlier
> 2000 server didn't have SSL enabled, so rdp/rdesktop worked for me without
> any problem. But now, as I try to connect to the server, it simply gives me
> ERROR: recv: Connection reset by peer
>

Did you make sure that the server has remote administration enabled?
I believe that, by default, Win2k3 Servers have RDP disabled.  Check
with your admins about that.

SC
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connecting to a secured Windows 2003 terminal server

[FreeBSD]

Dear folks

my sincere apologies if this has been discussed earlier, which I 
seriously doubt, since even after googling for nearly five days I 
couldn't find any solution.


Recently my company has updated their server to Windows 2003. The 
earlier 2000 server didn't have SSL enabled, so rdp/rdesktop worked for 
me without any problem. But now, as I try to connect to the server, it 
simply gives me

ERROR: recv: Connection reset by peer

I know for a fact that the server is working fine, since all IE and 
remote desktop softwares are working (they have to install the 
certificate at the beginning, once). But how can I connect from my 
freebsd box?


any pointers/links sujjestions are highly welcome.

Thanks.
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Re: terminal server recommendation?

[Chuck Swiger]

Noah wrote:
On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:01:08 -0400, Brian McCann wrote
OT for the list I'd think, but for power cyclers,
okay where is a good list to go to for these discussions - because I am 
unable
to find one.
Check the list archives for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.
--
-Chuck
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Re: terminal server recommendation?

[Noah]

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:01:08 -0400, Brian McCann wrote
> OT for the list I'd think, but for power cyclers,

okay where is a good list to go to for these discussions - because I am unable
to find one.

cheers,

Noah



> I use the APC
> MasterSwitch units with the network management card in them.  They
> have a nice web interface, or you can console to them via serial, and
> they support telnet as well (maybe SSH..not sure on that one.).  As
> for a terminal server, since we have extra 1U servers sitting around,
> I will be building my own, using EdgePort 8-Port Serial<->USB
> adapters...either on FreeBSD if they are supported or W*ndows,
> depending on if FreeBSD supports them (haven't looked yet).
> 
> Hope that helps,
> --Brian
> 
> On 4/18/05, Noah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi there,
> > 
> > well I am needing some more remote control to my machines at my colo
> > facility.  can you possibly recommend a really nice terminal server?
> > 
> > also what about remote power cyclers?  any clues here?
> > 
> > cheers,
> > 
> > Noah
> > 
> > ___
> > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list
> > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
> > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> >
> 
> -- 
> _-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_
> Brian McCann
> Systems & Network Administrator, K12USA
> 
> "I don't have to take this abuse from you -- I've got hundreds of
> people waiting to abuse me."
> -- Bill Murray, "Ghostbusters"
> ___
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Re: terminal server recommendation?

[Brian McCann]

 OT for the list I'd think, but for power cyclers, I use the APC
MasterSwitch units with the network management card in them.  They
have a nice web interface, or you can console to them via serial, and
they support telnet as well (maybe SSH..not sure on that one.).  As
for a terminal server, since we have extra 1U servers sitting around,
I will be building my own, using EdgePort 8-Port Serial<->USB
adapters...either on FreeBSD if they are supported or W*ndows,
depending on if FreeBSD supports them (haven't looked yet).

Hope that helps,
--Brian

On 4/18/05, Noah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi there,
> 
> well I am needing some more remote control to my machines at my colo
> facility.  can you possibly recommend a really nice terminal server?
> 
> also what about remote power cyclers?  any clues here?
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Noah
> 
> ___
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> 


-- 
_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_-=-_
Brian McCann
Systems & Network Administrator, K12USA

"I don't have to take this abuse from you -- I've got hundreds of
people waiting to abuse me."
-- Bill Murray, "Ghostbusters"
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terminal server recommendation?

[Noah]

Hi there,

well I am needing some more remote control to my machines at my colo
facility.  can you possibly recommend a really nice terminal server?

also what about remote power cyclers?  any clues here?

cheers,

Noah

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Re: Anything similar to the Linux Terminal Server Project?

[Warren Block]

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, stan wrote:
I've got a bunch of PC's that I would like to use as diskless
X eindows servers. I was wondering if FreeBSD had anything like
the Linux Terminal erver Project?
I recognize that I should be able to set up something using dhcp, nfs,
et all to do this myself, but I don't want to reinvint the wheel, if
ut's been done before.
'man diskless' has some information on netbooting, and there's a similar 
chapter in the Handbook.

-Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota USA
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Anything similar to the Linux Terminal Server Project?

[stan]

I've got a bunch of PC's that I would like to use as diskless
X eindows servers. I was wondering if FreeBSD had anything like
the Linux Terminal erver Project? 

I recognize that I should be able to set up something using dhcp, nfs,
et all to do this myself, but I don't want to reinvint the wheel, if
ut's been done before.

-- 
"They that would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve
neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Overly brief answers (was Re: Terminal Server)

[Richard Kästner]

[...sniped...]

Disrearding any pro's and con's for the discussion:

as a 'consumer' of this list, I want to say 
"thanks for much valuable information I received from this list!"

Sure, many questions are somewhat ... well, could have been better worded 

However, even "wrong" answers gave me a lot of info!
(And I hope, there will be the same spirit in future)

Thanks to all the helping hands!
-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Richard Kästner

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Re: [OT] Re: Overly brief answers (was Re: Terminal Server)

[Bill Moran]

Hey Nico,

Nico Meijer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Bill!
> 
> I am joyfully amazed at how much one simple "yes" can stir up, other 
> than at weddings. ;-)

You'll have such "stirrings" when you deal with people who actually care
about what they do.  Folks that don't really care generally don't get
stirred up.  I take the fact that the FreeBSD community occasionally gets
pretty stirred up as a good sign that the community really cares about
what it does.

> First off: I didn't mean to put OP or anyone else off. Yes, I must 
> admit, there is a 'smart @$$' element in my answer, which is totally my bad.

Cool ... Although it's only my opinion ... I don't particularly think that
short answers are always bad, I was just worried that there _appeared_ to be
a trend emerging with short, underinformative answers.

> Please take note that I am a nice guy, usually overly helpful 
> (admittedly, not per se on this list, but I have a photograph to 
> actually prove my point ;-) ) and light hearted. You cannot actually see 
> my emails are written with a smile on my face. My bad, again.

I don't doubt it.

> > This is not an answer to the question.
> 
> Yes and no. Yes, remote access. Yes, multiple sessions. No, the hidden 
> questions I did not answer. With a purpose, I must add.

I got that impression, and I prefer to supply a reference to Grog's paper
on asking questions (or even ESR's) or directly point out the shortcomings
of the question, than to assume that the OP will "get the hint".  Again,
my opinion, but I've found that, far too often, I didn't present the
hint well enough to be gotten ...

> > It does not answer the question and does
> > not contribute to the OPs knowledge of FreeBSD, nor does it contribute to the
> > list archives.
> 
> In a 'smart @$$' way, I was actually trying to get OP to *think* about 
> his question and hopefully restate it. Taken as it is (i.e. literally), 
> it was a wrong question with a right answer.
> 
> OP might have asked additionally: "If so, where could I begin to read 
> and learn for myself?" Basically, "Will you help me to help myself?" To 
> me, that is on the right track. "Will you hold my hand and do it for 
> me?" is off limits, if you ask me, but OP was not going for this, obviously.

I agree with this.  If you care to search the list archives (please don't)
you'll find that I've occasionally been guilty of going the other way with
this (i.e. I'll feed an obvious Troll for several posts in the hopes that
he'll come around) so we're all imperfect.

> > It's also a violation of the rule against "me too" answers as
> > laid out in "How to Get the Best Results from FreeBSD-Questions".
> 
> I'll be sure to reread it.

I try to reread it every few months, so I don't forget the points it
makes.

> > It doesn't
> > even serve to educate the OP on how to ask better questins.
> 
> You're probably right, although my intentions were just that.

I thought they might be.

> > You could say that "technically, he didn't ask" but it
> > boils down to just being rude.
> 
> I disagree. :-)
> 
> 
> Asking a question on a high traffic mailing list without showing you've 
> done some basic homework is rude. Implying/hiding questions instead of 
> asking them directly is rude. (Hey, I was implying aswell!)
> 

The problem is that most folks don't really understand the nature of this
mailing list the first time they post.  There are some folks that lurk
for quite a while before posting for the first time, but it seems to me
that most folks post before they fully understand the nature of the
mailing list.

> ESR has a well written piece on this very matter.

Yup.  I'm familiar with both ESR's and Grog's writings on this, and I
refer people to them both.

> > I don't think answers like this reflect well on FreeBSD or the FreeBSD
> > community.  Short answers like "see 'man foo'" are appropriate, as they impart
> > some knowledge and tell the OP that his question is answered in the indicated
> > documentation, but this doesn't follow that template.
> 
> What greater good is there than to help someone help themselves? I guess 
> none.

I agree.

> So yes, I had done better had I pointed at some docs. I apologize for 
> not doing that.

Thank you.  I'm appreciate your contributions to the list, as well as your
efforts to improve.  I'm sure everyone does.  The FreeBSD community needs
more folks like you!

> Bye... Nico 'my bad' Meijer

Hell, we all make mistakes.  If that short post is the worse mistake
you made today, then you're doing a whole lot better than me!

> P.S. Although I *do* feel a greeting at the top of a message makes a 
> world of difference. :-) Did you notice OP greeted? Did you notice I 
> did? Can you see me smiling right now? :-)

I'll try to remember to do that.  Might take me a little while to turn
it into a habit.

-- 
Bill Moran
Potential Technologies
http://www.potentialtech.com
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[OT] Re: Overly brief answers (was Re: Terminal Server)

[Nico Meijer]

Hi Bill!
I am joyfully amazed at how much one simple "yes" can stir up, other 
than at weddings. ;-)

First off: I didn't mean to put OP or anyone else off. Yes, I must 
admit, there is a 'smart @$$' element in my answer, which is totally my bad.

Please take note that I am a nice guy, usually overly helpful 
(admittedly, not per se on this list, but I have a photograph to 
actually prove my point ;-) ) and light hearted. You cannot actually see 
my emails are written with a smile on my face. My bad, again.

This is not an answer to the question.
Yes and no. Yes, remote access. Yes, multiple sessions. No, the hidden 
questions I did not answer. With a purpose, I must add.

It does not answer the question and does
not contribute to the OPs knowledge of FreeBSD, nor does it contribute to the
list archives.
In a 'smart @$$' way, I was actually trying to get OP to *think* about 
his question and hopefully restate it. Taken as it is (i.e. literally), 
it was a wrong question with a right answer.

OP might have asked additionally: "If so, where could I begin to read 
and learn for myself?" Basically, "Will you help me to help myself?" To 
me, that is on the right track. "Will you hold my hand and do it for 
me?" is off limits, if you ask me, but OP was not going for this, obviously.

It's also a violation of the rule against "me too" answers as
laid out in "How to Get the Best Results from FreeBSD-Questions".
I'll be sure to reread it.
It doesn't
even serve to educate the OP on how to ask better questins.
You're probably right, although my intentions were just that.
You could say that "technically, he didn't ask" but it
boils down to just being rude.
I disagree. :-)

Asking a question on a high traffic mailing list without showing you've 
done some basic homework is rude. Implying/hiding questions instead of 
asking them directly is rude. (Hey, I was implying aswell!)


ESR has a well written piece on this very matter.
I don't think answers like this reflect well on FreeBSD or the FreeBSD
community.  Short answers like "see 'man foo'" are appropriate, as they impart
some knowledge and tell the OP that his question is answered in the indicated
documentation, but this doesn't follow that template.
What greater good is there than to help someone help themselves? I guess 
none.

So yes, I had done better had I pointed at some docs. I apologize for 
not doing that.

Bye... Nico 'my bad' Meijer
P.S. Although I *do* feel a greeting at the top of a message makes a 
world of difference. :-) Did you notice OP greeted? Did you notice I 
did? Can you see me smiling right now? :-)

P.P.S. No, that was not sarcasm, nor intended harmfully. :-)
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Re: Overly brief answers (was Re: Terminal Server)

[epilogue]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:51:40 -0400
Bill Moran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Kevin Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > > On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:27:44 -0400
> > > Bill Moran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Nico Meijer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Mike,
> > > > >
> > > > > > Can FreeBSD act like Windows Terminal Server, i.e. remote
> > > > > > access, multiple sessions?
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes.
> > > >
> > > > I wanted to start a brief discussion about these kinds of answers
> > > > to questions.
> > > >
> > > > I've been seeing this quite a bit lately.  I don't know if it's
> > > > just one person, of if multiple folks have picked up on it.
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > This is not an answer to the question.  It does not answer the
> > > > question and does not contribute to the OPs knowledge of FreeBSD,
> > > > nor does it contribute to the list archives.  It's also a violation
> > > > of the rule against "me too" answers as laid out in "How to Get the
> > > > Best Results from FreeBSD-Questions".  It doesn't even serve to
> > > > educate the OP on how to ask better questins.
> > 
> > With it understood that opinions vary, I disagree with yours in this
> > case. The question was posed as a "yes or no" question, with no
> > followup. Therefore, "yes" or "no" *precisely* answers it.
> > 
> > For all we know, the OP was merely asking to get a quick determination
> > of what the solution set was.  I ask such questions of colleagues
> > often, and am not interested in the particulars at that point.
> > 
> > > > First off, there are actually two questions hidden in the post:
> > > > "Can FreeBSD act as a WTS?", and "can FreeBSD provide the same
> > > > services as WTS?"  Is "yes" your answer to both of them?  Because,
> > > > if it is, I'd like to know which software allows it to function as
> > > > a WTS, since my searches have not found any such software.
> > 
> > The OP didn't say "as", s/he said "like", and then went on to list the
> > criteria for "like".
> > 
> > > > This leads to the implied question of "what software provides the
> > > > capability" which (despite not being voice, directly) is pretty
> > > > obvious. You've totally ignored that question.  You could say that
> > > > "technically, he didn't ask" but it boils down to just being rude.
> > > > 
> > 
> > I don't generally answer implicit questions, and I don't believe that
> > behavior is rude.  Quite the contrary - I believe it is *respectful* to
> > grant the assumption that people mean what they say/ask.

Good points.  Further, I think that we *all* have reasoned assumptions
which inform our replies and with which we have to reckon.

For my part, I tend to assume that people asking general questions
about (or ostensibly specific questions which upon closer examination
reveal their limited exposure to / understanding of) FreeBSD are new to
the project and would probably benefit from whatever 'additional'
information / resources we are able to provide.

> > To do otherwise scans to me as "I don't think you know what you're
> > saying, so I'm going to assume I know better than you and treat you
> > like an idiot.".

I don't think that I've ever been insulted by someone offering me
additional or superfluous help.  E-mail is a fairly impersonal medium.  I
tend to give the benefit of the doubt, whenever possible.  Now, if I bought
a box of soap at the laudromat and was given the soap *and* a course on how
to put the quarters into the machine...

I suppose that ends my 2 cents on this thread.:)

> > My favorite example is trying to extract a simple answer on how to
> > enable telnetd on a given system, which is guaranteed to produce a
> > firestorm of"don't use telnet" responses which have nothing to do with
> > the question, overtly assume the OP is an idiot, and show little or no
> > understanding about security postures in general or the OPs situation
> > in specific.  But I digress ;).
> > 
> > In this case, I see nothing wrong with the response.  If the OP
> > deliberately chose to frame a yes/no question, then s/he has their
> > res

Re: Overly brief answers (was Re: Terminal Server)

[Bill Moran]

Kevin Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:27:44 -0400
> > Bill Moran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Nico Meijer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Mike,
> > > >
> > > > > Can FreeBSD act like Windows Terminal Server, i.e. remote access,
> > > > > multiple sessions?
> > > >
> > > > Yes.
> > >
> > > I wanted to start a brief discussion about these kinds of answers to
> > > questions.
> > >
> > > I've been seeing this quite a bit lately.  I don't know if it's just one
> > > person, of if multiple folks have picked up on it.
> > >
> > > 
> > > This is not an answer to the question.  It does not answer the question
> > > and does not contribute to the OPs knowledge of FreeBSD, nor does it
> > > contribute to the list archives.  It's also a violation of the rule
> > > against "me too" answers as laid out in "How to Get the Best Results from
> > > FreeBSD-Questions".  It doesn't even serve to educate the OP on how to
> > > ask better questins.
> 
> With it understood that opinions vary, I disagree with yours in this case.
> The question was posed as a "yes or no" question, with no followup.
> Therefore, "yes" or "no" *precisely* answers it.
> 
> For all we know, the OP was merely asking to get a quick determination of
> what the solution set was.  I ask such questions of colleagues often, and
> am not interested in the particulars at that point.
> 
> > > First off, there are actually two questions hidden in the post: "Can
> > > FreeBSD act as a WTS?", and "can FreeBSD provide the same services as
> > > WTS?"  Is "yes" your answer to both of them?  Because, if it is, I'd like
> > > to know which software allows it to function as a WTS, since my searches
> > > have not found any such software.
> 
> The OP didn't say "as", s/he said "like", and then went on to list the
> criteria for "like".
> 
> > > This leads to the implied question of "what software provides the
> > > capability" which (despite not being voice, directly) is pretty obvious.
> > > You've totally ignored that question.  You could say that "technically,
> > > he didn't ask" but it boils down to just being rude.
> > > 
> 
> I don't generally answer implicit questions, and I don't believe that
> behavior is rude.  Quite the contrary - I believe it is *respectful* to
> grant the assumption that people mean what they say/ask.  To do otherwise
> scans to me as "I don't think you know what you're saying, so I'm going to
> assume I know better than you and treat you like an idiot.".
> 
> My favorite example is trying to extract a simple answer on how to enable
> telnetd on a given system, which is guaranteed to produce a firestorm of
> "don't use telnet" responses which have nothing to do with the question,
> overtly assume the OP is an idiot, and show little or no understanding
> about security postures in general or the OPs situation in specific.  But
> I digress ;).
> 
> In this case, I see nothing wrong with the response.  If the OP
> deliberately chose to frame a yes/no question, then s/he has their
> response.  If they then want to frame followup questions, there's nothing
> in the response to discourage them from doing so.  If we have to make an
> assumption, let's make the assumption that they know how to ask a
> question, rather than the dual assumption that they DON'T know how to ask
> a question, and that we can guess what their intent actually was.

Very valid points.  If I were going to look for someone to discuss the opposite
side of the coin on this, I would go to you first, as you've managed to
completely disagree with me in an intelligent fashion!  Bravo.

I don't have many arguments to place in response to your disagreement, so I'll
keep my counter-opinions short:
1) I prefer to err on the side of too much information than to err on the side
   of not enough.  This addresses a lot of your points, but is only a matter
   of personal preference and therefore not anything to do with official list
   policy or anything.  But it explains a lot of our difference of opinion.
2) This "yes" email is only one of several I've seen over the last few weeks.
   I'm not going to take the time to search them out, but I was starting to
   wonder if an "air of smart-assedness" was infecting the list, I supposed it's
   possible that I've been infected with something, though.
3) I posted the original "brief answer" email to promote discussion, and voice
   my own opinion.  I find it refreshing to know that people who are posting
   short answers don't do it mindlessly.  Even if I don't agree with it, at
   least it has a thought-out reason.

-- 
Bill Moran
Potential Technologies
http://www.potentialtech.com
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Re: Terminal Server

[David Fleck]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, Mike Miocevich wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Can FreeBSD act like Windows Terminal Server, i.e. remote access,
> multiple sessions?

Rather than asking a fairly loose and undefined question ('is software X
like software Y?'), perhaps you would be better served if you specified
more precisely what it is you want to be able to do.

At some levels, FreeBSD may be very like WTS - at other levels, it will be
very different.  Whether or not it will be useful to you depends on what
you want to do with it.

--
David Fleck
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Overly brief answers (was Re: Terminal Server)

[Kevin Stevens]

> On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:27:44 -0400
> Bill Moran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Nico Meijer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Mike,
> > >
> > > > Can FreeBSD act like Windows Terminal Server, i.e. remote access,
> > > > multiple sessions?
> > >
> > > Yes.
> >
> > I wanted to start a brief discussion about these kinds of answers to
> > questions.
> >
> > I've been seeing this quite a bit lately.  I don't know if it's just one
> > person, of if multiple folks have picked up on it.
> >
> > 
> > This is not an answer to the question.  It does not answer the question
> > and does not contribute to the OPs knowledge of FreeBSD, nor does it
> > contribute to the list archives.  It's also a violation of the rule
> > against "me too" answers as laid out in "How to Get the Best Results from
> > FreeBSD-Questions".  It doesn't even serve to educate the OP on how to
> > ask better questins.

With it understood that opinions vary, I disagree with yours in this case.
The question was posed as a "yes or no" question, with no followup.
Therefore, "yes" or "no" *precisely* answers it.

For all we know, the OP was merely asking to get a quick determination of
what the solution set was.  I ask such questions of colleagues often, and
am not interested in the particulars at that point.

> > First off, there are actually two questions hidden in the post: "Can
> > FreeBSD act as a WTS?", and "can FreeBSD provide the same services as
> > WTS?"  Is "yes" your answer to both of them?  Because, if it is, I'd like
> > to know which software allows it to function as a WTS, since my searches
> > have not found any such software.

The OP didn't say "as", s/he said "like", and then went on to list the
criteria for "like".

> > This leads to the implied question of "what software provides the
> > capability" which (despite not being voice, directly) is pretty obvious.
> > You've totally ignored that question.  You could say that "technically,
> > he didn't ask" but it boils down to just being rude.
> > 

I don't generally answer implicit questions, and I don't believe that
behavior is rude.  Quite the contrary - I believe it is *respectful* to
grant the assumption that people mean what they say/ask.  To do otherwise
scans to me as "I don't think you know what you're saying, so I'm going to
assume I know better than you and treat you like an idiot.".

My favorite example is trying to extract a simple answer on how to enable
telnetd on a given system, which is guaranteed to produce a firestorm of
"don't use telnet" responses which have nothing to do with the question,
overtly assume the OP is an idiot, and show little or no understanding
about security postures in general or the OPs situation in specific.  But
I digress ;).

In this case, I see nothing wrong with the response.  If the OP
deliberately chose to frame a yes/no question, then s/he has their
response.  If they then want to frame followup questions, there's nothing
in the response to discourage them from doing so.  If we have to make an
assumption, let's make the assumption that they know how to ask a
question, rather than the dual assumption that they DON'T know how to ask
a question, and that we can guess what their intent actually was.

KeS
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Re: Overly brief answers (was Re: Terminal Server)

[Jerry McAllister]

> 

> > > I wanted to start a brief discussion about these kinds of answers to 
> > > questions.
> > > 
> > > I've been seeing this quite a bit lately.  I don't know if it's just one 
> > > person,
> > > of if multiple folks have picked up on it.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > This is not an answer to the question.  It does not answer the question 
> > > and does
> > > not contribute to the OPs knowledge of FreeBSD, nor does it contribute to the
> > > list archives.  It's also a violation of the rule against "me too" answers as
> > > laid out in "How to Get the Best Results from FreeBSD-Questions".  It doesn't
> > > even serve to educate the OP on how to ask better questins.
> > 
> > on the issue of the _short_ answer;   In the case of this question, it is
> > probably obvious that the poster needed more useful information - at least
> > a pointer to some info.   Then, it looks bad to just give a smart alec yes
> > or whatever other less than useful reply.
> 
> I'm wondering if these short "yes" answers aren't all smart-alec, but some of
> them are possibly an attempt to answer before anyone else.
> 
> I know, I've seen a question I could answer, made sure it hasn't already been
> answered (to avoid unnecessary list traffic) then crafted a carefully worded,
> helpful answer, only to find 5 others appear at the same time as mine.  Kind
> of makes one feel like he's wasting his time.  But it's not an excuse to send
> terse, essentally useless answers.

Yes, that has happened to me sometimes and unfortunately (fortunately for the
questioner) some of the other responses were significantly better than mine.  
Oh well.

Anyway, I guess, I don't mind seeing several responses to a question, even 
if they are essentially the same.  First, they tend to each have a little 
bit different tack and give different/additional referrences.  Plus, having 
several people independantly agree adds a bit of confidence.   Something 
missing in the typical newbies world.   That is a little different than
strictly me too replies.

> > But, some of these questions - is FreeBSD really free, etc get frustrating 
> > because it is obvious that the poster didn't even read the first page of 
> > the web site let alone try and look for an answer.  So, a few of the 
> > posted questions deserve a mere yes or no answer.
> 
> I disagree, as Grog's document clearly states: "if you can't think of anything
> nice to say, don't say anything at all" and I consider that list policy.

I agree with that.   I take the time at least to type out the suggestion 
to check the web page, or whatever rather than just say yes or no.  But, 
I can sympathize with the person who does give the smart alec answer.

> I understand your frustration.  As someone who's donated a bit to the doc
> project, and can only _imagine_ how much effort others have put in to the
> high-quality docs that FreeBSD has, I get annoyed when people won't read it
> as well.  But I just suck it up and either post a pointer to the docs, or
> delete it without answering.

A prophet goes without honor in his homeor something like that.
Yup.

I also sympathize with the newbie - more like empathize with the newbie.
A person tends to start from nowhere and doesn't even have a clue about
what is a good question let alone what to do about it.  Seeing all the 
new language and jargon and even worse, initials that AFAIK are commonly 
used in the discussions and even the documentation can make the situation 
even worse.   There are no stupid questions.   (But, there are lazy ones)

jerry

> 
> >  - this from someone who could more often be accused of giving excessively
> > long answers to even simple questions...
> > 
> > jerry
> > 
> > > 
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Re: Overly brief answers (was Re: Terminal Server)

[Bill Moran]

Jerry McAllister <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > Nico Meijer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi Mike,
> > > 
> > > > Can FreeBSD act like Windows Terminal Server, i.e. remote access, multiple
> > > > sessions?
> > > 
> > > Yes.
> > 
> > I wanted to start a brief discussion about these kinds of answers to 
> > questions.
> > 
> > I've been seeing this quite a bit lately.  I don't know if it's just one 
> > person,
> > of if multiple folks have picked up on it.
> > 
> > 
> > This is not an answer to the question.  It does not answer the question 
> > and does
> > not contribute to the OPs knowledge of FreeBSD, nor does it contribute to the
> > list archives.  It's also a violation of the rule against "me too" answers as
> > laid out in "How to Get the Best Results from FreeBSD-Questions".  It doesn't
> > even serve to educate the OP on how to ask better questins.
> 
> on the issue of the _short_ answer;   In the case of this question, it is
> probably obvious that the poster needed more useful information - at least
> a pointer to some info.   Then, it looks bad to just give a smart alec yes
> or whatever other less than useful reply.

I'm wondering if these short "yes" answers aren't all smart-alec, but some of
them are possibly an attempt to answer before anyone else.

I know, I've seen a question I could answer, made sure it hasn't already been
answered (to avoid unnecessary list traffic) then crafted a carefully worded,
helpful answer, only to find 5 others appear at the same time as mine.  Kind
of makes one feel like he's wasting his time.  But it's not an excuse to send
terse, essentally useless answers.

> But, some of these questions - is FreeBSD really free, etc get frustrating 
> because it is obvious that the poster didn't even read the first page of 
> the web site let alone try and look for an answer.  So, a few of the 
> posted questions deserve a mere yes or no answer.

I disagree, as Grog's document clearly states: "if you can't think of anything
nice to say, don't say anything at all" and I consider that list policy.

I understand your frustration.  As someone who's donated a bit to the doc
project, and can only _imagine_ how much effort others have put in to the
high-quality docs that FreeBSD has, I get annoyed when people won't read it
as well.  But I just suck it up and either post a pointer to the docs, or
delete it without answering.

>  - this from someone who could more often be accused of giving excessively
> long answers to even simple questions...
> 
> jerry
> 
> > 
> > First off, there are actually two questions hidden in the post: "Can FreeBSD
> > act as a WTS?", and "can FreeBSD provide the same services as WTS?"  Is "yes"
> > your answer to both of them?  Because, if it is, I'd like to know which
> > software allows it to function as a WTS, since my searches have not found any
> > such software.
> > 
> > This leads to the implied question of "what software provides the capability"
> > which (despite not being voice, directly) is pretty obvious.  You've totally
> > ignored that question.  You could say that "technically, he didn't ask" but it
> > boils down to just being rude.
> > 
> > 
> > I'm curious as to whether this is only my opinion, or if others feel the same
> > way.  I don't think answers like this reflect well on FreeBSD or the FreeBSD
> > community.  Short answers like "see 'man foo'" are appropriate, as they impart
> > some knowledge and tell the OP that his question is answered in the indicated
> > documentation, but this doesn't follow that template.
> > 
> > I do feel that, althought Grog's document doesn't specifically chastise these
> > types of answers, that they are _not_ in the "spirit" of that document, and do
> > not serve the purpose of this mailing list.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Bill Moran
> > Potential Technologies
> > http://www.potentialtech.com
> > ___
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> > 
> 
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-- 
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Potential Technologies
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Re: Overly brief answers (was Re: Terminal Server)

[Jerry McAllister]

> 
> Nico Meijer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Mike,
> > 
> > > Can FreeBSD act like Windows Terminal Server, i.e. remote access, multiple
> > > sessions?
> > 
> > Yes.
> 
> I wanted to start a brief discussion about these kinds of answers to 
> questions.
> 
> I've been seeing this quite a bit lately.  I don't know if it's just one 
> person,
> of if multiple folks have picked up on it.
> 
> 
> This is not an answer to the question.  It does not answer the question 
> and does
> not contribute to the OPs knowledge of FreeBSD, nor does it contribute to the
> list archives.  It's also a violation of the rule against "me too" answers as
> laid out in "How to Get the Best Results from FreeBSD-Questions".  It doesn't
> even serve to educate the OP on how to ask better questins.

on the issue of the _short_ answer;   In the case of this question, it is
probably obvious that the poster needed more useful information - at least
a pointer to some info.   Then, it looks bad to just give a smart alec yes
or whatever other less than useful reply.

But, some of these questions - is FreeBSD really free, etc get frustrating 
because it is obvious that the poster didn't even read the first page of 
the web site let alone try and look for an answer.  So, a few of the 
posted questions deserve a mere yes or no answer.
 - this from someone who could more often be accused of giving excessively
long answers to even simple questions...

jerry

> 
> First off, there are actually two questions hidden in the post: "Can FreeBSD
> act as a WTS?", and "can FreeBSD provide the same services as WTS?"  Is "yes"
> your answer to both of them?  Because, if it is, I'd like to know which
> software allows it to function as a WTS, since my searches have not found any
> such software.
> 
> This leads to the implied question of "what software provides the capability"
> which (despite not being voice, directly) is pretty obvious.  You've totally
> ignored that question.  You could say that "technically, he didn't ask" but it
> boils down to just being rude.
> 
> 
> I'm curious as to whether this is only my opinion, or if others feel the same
> way.  I don't think answers like this reflect well on FreeBSD or the FreeBSD
> community.  Short answers like "see 'man foo'" are appropriate, as they impart
> some knowledge and tell the OP that his question is answered in the indicated
> documentation, but this doesn't follow that template.
> 
> I do feel that, althought Grog's document doesn't specifically chastise these
> types of answers, that they are _not_ in the "spirit" of that document, and do
> not serve the purpose of this mailing list.
> 
> -- 
> Bill Moran
> Potential Technologies
> http://www.potentialtech.com
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> 

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Re: Overly brief answers (was Re: Terminal Server)

[Steve Bertrand]

> I'm curious as to whether this is only my opinion, or if others feel the
> same
> way.

I hope this thread in no way leads to a flame war, but I think this is a
good discussion. In no way would I like to bash or flame anyone, but users
who receive responses like this (albeit in this particular question, 'yes'
was technically a proper answer), I believe that the user (particularily
newbs) could quickly become very frustrated and pushed away as they may
see it as a quick and dirty response and feel their question in some way
was 'silly'.

Note that I believe that the only stupid question is the one that isn't
asked, but even those questions that are trivial to some of us deserve
some insight. We must look beyond our own knowledge and remember what it
was like for us when we first began the FBSD journey and realize that
single word responses are certainly not going to help.

Personally when I respond to a question, I try to put myself in the shoes
of the poster, and try to at least give a little insight or direction to
the question as if I asked it myself.

Although as someone has already said, these replies are likely attempts to
quickly help the user, they often mislead and discourage them instead.
It's great that everyone likes to help, but we all should remember the
importance that substance is key to aiding each other.

Just my .02. No offence intended, and no one is perfect, we can only try
our best to help.

sb

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Overly brief answers (was Re: Terminal Server)

[epilogue]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:27:44 -0400
Bill Moran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Nico Meijer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Mike,
> > 
> > > Can FreeBSD act like Windows Terminal Server, i.e. remote access,
> > > multiple sessions?
> > 
> > Yes.
> 
> I wanted to start a brief discussion about these kinds of answers to
> questions.
> 
> I've been seeing this quite a bit lately.  I don't know if it's just one
> person, of if multiple folks have picked up on it.
> 
> 
> This is not an answer to the question.  It does not answer the question
> and does not contribute to the OPs knowledge of FreeBSD, nor does it
> contribute to the list archives.  It's also a violation of the rule
> against "me too" answers as laid out in "How to Get the Best Results from
> FreeBSD-Questions".  It doesn't even serve to educate the OP on how to
> ask better questins.
> 
> First off, there are actually two questions hidden in the post: "Can
> FreeBSD act as a WTS?", and "can FreeBSD provide the same services as
> WTS?"  Is "yes" your answer to both of them?  Because, if it is, I'd like
> to know which software allows it to function as a WTS, since my searches
> have not found any such software.
> 
> This leads to the implied question of "what software provides the
> capability" which (despite not being voice, directly) is pretty obvious. 
> You've totally ignored that question.  You could say that "technically,
> he didn't ask" but it boils down to just being rude.
> 
> 
> I'm curious as to whether this is only my opinion, or if others feel the
> same way.

at the risk of creating a double standard, 'me too'.   ;)

though they aren't particularly helpful answers, i don't believe that being
curt is always the intention.  rather, i think that, in their eagerness to
help 'first', some posters may simply be 'forgetting' to provide
substantive assistance to newcomers and other interested parties.

thanks for taking the time to remind everyone about this, bill.  

wishful thinkingly yours,
epi


> I don't think answers like this reflect well on FreeBSD or the
> FreeBSD community. Short answers like "see 'man foo'" are appropriate, as
> they impart some knowledge and tell the OP that his question is answered
> in the indicated documentation, but this doesn't follow that template.
> 
> I do feel that, althought Grog's document doesn't specifically chastise
> these types of answers, that they are _not_ in the "spirit" of that
> document, and do not serve the purpose of this mailing list.
> 
> -- 
> Bill Moran
> Potential Technologies
> http://www.potentialtech.com
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Overly brief answers (was Re: Terminal Server)

[Bill Moran]

Nico Meijer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
> 
> > Can FreeBSD act like Windows Terminal Server, i.e. remote access, multiple
> > sessions?
> 
> Yes.

I wanted to start a brief discussion about these kinds of answers to questions.

I've been seeing this quite a bit lately.  I don't know if it's just one person,
of if multiple folks have picked up on it.


This is not an answer to the question.  It does not answer the question and does
not contribute to the OPs knowledge of FreeBSD, nor does it contribute to the
list archives.  It's also a violation of the rule against "me too" answers as
laid out in "How to Get the Best Results from FreeBSD-Questions".  It doesn't
even serve to educate the OP on how to ask better questins.

First off, there are actually two questions hidden in the post: "Can FreeBSD
act as a WTS?", and "can FreeBSD provide the same services as WTS?"  Is "yes"
your answer to both of them?  Because, if it is, I'd like to know which
software allows it to function as a WTS, since my searches have not found any
such software.

This leads to the implied question of "what software provides the capability"
which (despite not being voice, directly) is pretty obvious.  You've totally
ignored that question.  You could say that "technically, he didn't ask" but it
boils down to just being rude.


I'm curious as to whether this is only my opinion, or if others feel the same
way.  I don't think answers like this reflect well on FreeBSD or the FreeBSD
community.  Short answers like "see 'man foo'" are appropriate, as they impart
some knowledge and tell the OP that his question is answered in the indicated
documentation, but this doesn't follow that template.

I do feel that, althought Grog's document doesn't specifically chastise these
types of answers, that they are _not_ in the "spirit" of that document, and do
not serve the purpose of this mailing list.

-- 
Bill Moran
Potential Technologies
http://www.potentialtech.com
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Re: Terminal Server

[Bill Moran]

"Mike Miocevich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Can FreeBSD act like Windows Terminal Server, i.e. remote access, multiple
> sessions?

I know of no software that will server as a "Windows Terminal Server" on 
FreeBSD.

However, as others have pointed out, there are a number of alternatives: ssh
if you don't need a GUI, X, and VNC.

I just wanted to clarify that none of these actually use the Windows Terminal
Server protocol, and thus each will require software installed on the clients
as well as the server.

-- 
Bill Moran
Potential Technologies
http://www.potentialtech.com
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Re: Terminal Server

[Nico Meijer]

Hi Mike,
Can FreeBSD act like Windows Terminal Server, i.e. remote access, multiple sessions?
Yes.
HTH... Nico
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Re: Terminal Server

[John Oxley]

On Sun 2004-06-20 (11:00), Mike Miocevich wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Can FreeBSD act like Windows Terminal Server, i.e. remote access, multiple sessions?

Hi Mike,

The short answer is yes.

The longer answer is FreeBSD, like all unices, has been built from the ground up as a
multi-user network operating system.

Allowing multiple users to work at the same time on a FreeBSD box is as
simple as enabling ssh and adding users to the system.  If you want to
give them graphical access, you can use X forwarding, or if you are on
windows machines, VNC.  I recommend TightVNC (http://www.tightvnc.com/).
I have worked on an easy way to allow users a graphical login without
having to make them run X servers on windows or manually setup a VNC
session.  It is documented at
http://oxo.rucus.net/docs/Terminal-Vnc-HOWTO

It is incomplete at the moment.  All I need to do is clean up the
presentation and grammar (I was always better at maths :), and insert
instructions on use of KDE's Desktop Manager.

-Ox

-- 
/~\ The ASCII   ASCII stupid question, get a EBCDIC ANSI.
\ / Ribbon Campaign John Oxley
 X  Against HTMLhttp://oxo.rucus.net/
/ \ Email!  oxo  rucus.ru.ac.za
"Personally, I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, 
pop-up-happy dungeon like NT."
-- Thomas Scoville
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Terminal Server

[Mike Miocevich]

Hi,

Can FreeBSD act like Windows Terminal Server, i.e. remote access, multiple sessions?

Thanks,

Mike
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Re: Terminal Server

[Cordula's Web]

> I would like to deploy a few terminal servers at my company and im wondering
> if FreeBSD has a way in which this can be done.
> 
> Linux has LTSP (http://www.ltsp.org). It basically allows you to boot up
> from a stiffy using a diskless server. Can this be done on FreeBSD and if so
> how ? Using bootprom ?

Have you read the Handbook?

  http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/diskless.html

-- 
Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/

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Re: Terminal Server

[Lowell Gilbert]

"Ian Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I would like to deploy a few terminal servers at my company and im wondering
> if FreeBSD has a way in which this can be done.

It's not hard at all to slap together, but for real applications, I'd
recommend buying a commercial terminal server anyway.  It will be a
lot more reliable than typical PC hardware.
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Terminal Server

[Ian Barnes]

Hi,

I would like to deploy a few terminal servers at my company and im wondering
if FreeBSD has a way in which this can be done.

Linux has LTSP (http://www.ltsp.org). It basically allows you to boot up
from a stiffy using a diskless server. Can this be done on FreeBSD and if so
how ? Using bootprom ?

Thanks for the help.

Ian

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Re: Windows Terminal Server clients

[Ben Cohen]

Earlier today, Edy Lie wrote:

> Anyone happen to know any windows terminal server client which allow cut
> and paste ?
> I have tried rdesktop but i was not able to cut and paste from local box
> to the windows terminal server.

Thinsoft has a Linux client that can cut and paste text.
http://www.thinsoftinc.com/
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RE: Windows Terminal Server clients

[Will Saxon]

> -Original Message-
> From: Edy Lie [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 11:52 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Windows Terminal Server clients
> 
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Anyone happen to know any windows terminal server client 
> which allow cut
> and paste ?
> I have tried rdesktop but i was not able to cut and paste 
> from local box
> to the windows terminal server.
> 

The developmental version of rdesktop has some support for clipboard copying. There 
used to be an rdesktop-devel port but it doesn't seem to exist any more. 

There are links to CVS, etc. through http://www.rdesktop.org 

-Will
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Windows Terminal Server clients

[Edy Lie]

Greetings,

Anyone happen to know any windows terminal server client which allow cut
and paste ?
I have tried rdesktop but i was not able to cut and paste from local box
to the windows terminal server.

Thank you.
Best Regards,
Edy Lie
-- 
In the windoze world, I am limited by the tools that I can use, In Unix,
I am limited by my own wisdom.


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Re: FreeBSD Terminal Server?

[Marcel Stangenberger]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2002, Kevin Greenidge wrote:

> That's exactly what I'm looking for. What documents
> and software were used to set it up?
>

only XFree86 is used. I used the one from the ports collection.

To set it up read this website http://www.xs4all.nl/~zweije/xauth-9.html

The setup mentioned there is based on linux, but it works the same for
FreeBSD. Once setup you can access it from any unix/linux/BSD workstation
without trouble. You can also access it thru windows with the help of
X-Win32 or eXceed.

If you need any help with the setup don't be afraid to ask me :-)

Good luck,

Marcel


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Re: FreeBSD Terminal Server?

[Kevin Greenidge]

That's exactly what I'm looking for. What documents
and software were used to set it up?



--- Marcel Stangenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Dec 2002, Kevin Greenidge wrote:
> 
> > I am going to setup a Terminal Server and was
> > wondering if there are any projects like
> > http://ltsp.org i would rather use freebsd than
> linux
> > if possible. Any suggestions are appriciated.
> >
> 
> the link gives me a DNS error so i can't see what
> you want to build. But i
> have a terminal server based on XFree86 running here
> without problems.
> 
> I run all applications from the server and the
> filesystem i access is also
> on the server.
> 
> Marcel
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of
> the message


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Re: FreeBSD Terminal Server?

[Danny Horne]

> # [EMAIL PROTECTED] / 2002-12-23 15:49:59 +0100:
>> On Mon, 23 Dec 2002, Kevin Greenidge wrote:
>>
>> > I am going to setup a Terminal Server and was
>> > wondering if there are any projects like
>> > http://ltsp.org i would rather use freebsd than linux
>> > if possible. Any suggestions are appriciated.
>> >
>>
>> the link gives me a DNS error so i can't see what you want to build.
>
> roman@freepuppy ~ 1001:0 > dnsqr a ltsp.org
> 1 ltsp.org:
> 42 bytes, 1+1+0+0 records, response, noerror
> query: 1 ltsp.org
> answer: ltsp.org 84600 A 216.136.171.201
>
You might like to try www.ltsp.org



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Re: FreeBSD Terminal Server?

[Roman Neuhauser]

# [EMAIL PROTECTED] / 2002-12-23 15:49:59 +0100:
> On Mon, 23 Dec 2002, Kevin Greenidge wrote:
> 
> > I am going to setup a Terminal Server and was
> > wondering if there are any projects like
> > http://ltsp.org i would rather use freebsd than linux
> > if possible. Any suggestions are appriciated.
> >
> 
> the link gives me a DNS error so i can't see what you want to build.

roman@freepuppy ~ 1001:0 > dnsqr a ltsp.org
1 ltsp.org:
42 bytes, 1+1+0+0 records, response, noerror
query: 1 ltsp.org
answer: ltsp.org 84600 A 216.136.171.201

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Re: FreeBSD Terminal Server?

[Marcel Stangenberger]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2002, Kevin Greenidge wrote:

> I am going to setup a Terminal Server and was
> wondering if there are any projects like
> http://ltsp.org i would rather use freebsd than linux
> if possible. Any suggestions are appriciated.
>

the link gives me a DNS error so i can't see what you want to build. But i
have a terminal server based on XFree86 running here without problems.

I run all applications from the server and the filesystem i access is also
on the server.

Marcel


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Re: FreeBSD Terminal Server?

[Dirk-Willem van Gulik]

Check out pico bsd; cd /usr/src/release/. That may do what you want.


Dw

On Mon, 23 Dec 2002, Kevin Greenidge wrote:

> I am going to setup a Terminal Server and was
> wondering if there are any projects like
> http://ltsp.org i would rather use freebsd than linux
> if possible. Any suggestions are appriciated.
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
>


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FreeBSD Terminal Server?

[Kevin Greenidge]

I am going to setup a Terminal Server and was
wondering if there are any projects like
http://ltsp.org i would rather use freebsd than linux
if possible. Any suggestions are appriciated.

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