Re: [Freedos-user] What is the trick to get Windows 3.1 to run on freedos???
On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Eric Auer wrote: >> Something I noticed, maybe because I'm using the unstable >> kernel instead of the stable 2036 one, deltree doesn't work >> anymore. > > Simple: If you only use WIN /S then you can use the > stable 2036 or stable 2038 kernel. The latter is on > http://rugxulo.googlepages.com/ as binary snapshot. > > There are a few pending improvements before 2038 can > be put on "sourceforge file releases"... The sources > already are on sourceforge in our svn, of course :-) > If there's a "stable" 2038, then that should get put on ibiblio for general release as soon as possible. If it's on rugxulo's pages, then very few people will know about it (heck, *I* didn't know about it - see my other email.) If you're waiting for further improvements to 2038 before you release 2038, then you're doing this wrong. Release early, release often. Rapid development in F/OSS doesn't happen unless you make releases for people to play with. I'd strongly recommend making 2038 available, and putting the "few pending improvements" in 2039. -jh -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] What is the trick to get Windows 3.1 to run on freedos???
On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Eric Auer wrote: > > Hi :-) > > > Realistically, someone should make a clone of Windows 3.1. > > This makes more sense than making freedos unstable. > > Unstable is only needed for 386 enh mode or wfworkgroups. > > > Windows 3.1 isn't that heavy > > Depends... On the other hand, reactos and hxgui are strong. > I do not think reactos is years away, in any case re-win3 > from scratch would be even further away ;-). Not sure how > heavy either will be - which hardware do you have in mind? > > > 3) There are many date problems and possibly other bugs. > > You could get a y2k fix download from microsoft a while ago. > > > 4) Freedos seems to become unstable when Windows 3.x is run > >on top of it. > > In what way? I guess using dos apps and dos boxes inside > freedos could indeed cause stability problems. > > Eric > > If you put it that way Then it seems like it would be easier to mobilize the entire FreeDOS user list to get Microsoft to open source Windows for Workgroups 3.11. I don't think anyone can really accomplish that though. Even so, a good portion of Windows 3.11 would not have to be rewritten. For example, by using Nano-X with Wine/ReactOS code along with HX DOS Extender, you effectively replaced the WIN.COM loader, the shell initialization, and implemented a good portion of Win32 and if we could bring in more Wine code, also Win16, which is implemented in Wine, but not ReactOS. Although, using Nano-X and HX DOS Extender effectively kills using old Windows 3.x drivers right away. Later on it could be implemented, but I don't think it could be done right from the start. On second thought, why not mobilize the people? The only obstacle would be that Microsoft wouldn't listen, but I don't think they have any real reason to keep that old code closed source anyway, so they might -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] What is the trick to get Windows 3.1 to run on freedos???
Hi :-) > I got Windows 3.1 running on Freedos using win /s, > the Msdos 6.2x himem.sys and the MSDOS 6.2x emm386.exe. > I also found out that share from freedos needs to be > loaded low. I think WIN /S will even work with the freedos versions of HIMEM or HIMEMX, maybe even with JEMM386 as well. > Great, it ran. Trouble is, my mouse is on com4 and there > are no windows drivers for a logitech mouse on com4. Argh! You could plug it to another port or reconfigure your ports to get other numbers assigned... > Something I noticed, maybe because I'm using the unstable > kernel instead of the stable 2036 one, deltree doesn't work > anymore. Simple: If you only use WIN /S then you can use the stable 2036 or stable 2038 kernel. The latter is on http://rugxulo.googlepages.com/ as binary snapshot. There are a few pending improvements before 2038 can be put on "sourceforge file releases"... The sources already are on sourceforge in our svn, of course :-) > Realistically, someone should make a clone of Windows 3.1. > This makes more sense than making freedos unstable. Unstable is only needed for 386 enh mode or wfworkgroups. > Windows 3.1 isn't that heavy Depends... On the other hand, reactos and hxgui are strong. I do not think reactos is years away, in any case re-win3 from scratch would be even further away ;-). Not sure how heavy either will be - which hardware do you have in mind? > 3) There are many date problems and possibly other bugs. You could get a y2k fix download from microsoft a while ago. > 4) Freedos seems to become unstable when Windows 3.x is run >on top of it. In what way? I guess using dos apps and dos boxes inside freedos could indeed cause stability problems. Eric -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] What is the trick to get Windows 3.1 to run on freedos???
On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 8:29 AM, Adam Norton wrote: > * Calmira for GUI or someone could write a Program Manager for GUI like > Windows 3.x. Personally, I like the style of Windows 3.x over the > Windows 95 style of GUI. > I can't remember if Win 3.1 had context menus or not and I kind of like > a start menu/taskbar but thats not 3.11. If I do this right Calmira > should work. :) > > Because DOS HX Extender supports OpenGL, it is possible to use WineD3D > > to translate DirectX to OpenGL, so DirectX apps may not get left out > > anyway. Currently, this is how ReactOS emulates Direct3D. > I expect that with all the things that I am looking at will make this > both win16\win32 compatible, simply be cause of where I will be looking > for code. > Depends on what happens, we may want to have two version 16 only for > older PC and a Win16\32 for the PCs that can handle it. > This could end up being what would have happened had someone at M$ not > conceived of Win95 LOL. > > With the Nano-X server for DOS adapted to be up to date on Win16/Win32 > > APIs from the Wine/ReactOS Projects, and the X11 API from Xorg, then > > that would make it extremely flexible. > I am thinking, looking at Nano-X will give me a couple of options, > xwindows integration with the win libs (easier app porting etc) or at > the very least a good place to learn. > I am not 100% sure but I am nearly confident that Window's window > managers follow a different model than xwindows. Windows 3.1 compliance > is the most important thing > anything else is will be a bi product of what I use. > > usul You are correct that Windows does use a different model. It isn't horribly different though. Windows' window management is connected to GDI/GDI32 and USER/USER32. These two DLLs serve exactly the same purpose as Xlib. Through this and some other assorted DLLs, the Windows GUI is implemented through shell.dll and shell32.dll from what I understand. shell/shell32 are what control the window management I believe, so the X11 Window Manager equivalent is shell32. Now, because of this, Windows is fairly restricted in theming until about Windows XP, when uxtheme.dll was added in to separate the theming code from the window management code. Explorer (or Program Manager) has hooks that activate the shell mode, similar to Metacity's hooks with GNOME panel when GNOME is the selected desktop. Technically, computers from i386 and higher can run 32-bit Windows. However, it is recommended that only i486 and higher run 32-bit Windows, since the protected mode is quite a bit more advanced in the i486 over i386. Since HX DOS Extender works fine in i386 afaik, there really shouldn't be too many issues implementing as one version. If you plan to support Windows 3.0 "Real Mode" (which is basically pointless), then you need to split the versions because the real mode version can only be 16-bit. Not 32-bit. Context menus ARE possible in Windows for Workgroups, but I don't think many apps of the era used right clicking. A single click activates the menus. -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] What is the trick to get Windows 3.1 to run on freedos???
* Calmira for GUI or someone could write a Program Manager for GUI like Windows 3.x. Personally, I like the style of Windows 3.x over the Windows 95 style of GUI. I can't remember if Win 3.1 had context menus or not and I kind of like a start menu/taskbar but thats not 3.11. If I do this right Calmira should work. :) > Because DOS HX Extender supports OpenGL, it is possible to use WineD3D > to translate DirectX to OpenGL, so DirectX apps may not get left out > anyway. Currently, this is how ReactOS emulates Direct3D. I expect that with all the things that I am looking at will make this both win16\win32 compatible, simply be cause of where I will be looking for code. Depends on what happens, we may want to have two version 16 only for older PC and a Win16\32 for the PCs that can handle it. This could end up being what would have happened had someone at M$ not conceived of Win95 LOL. > With the Nano-X server for DOS adapted to be up to date on Win16/Win32 > APIs from the Wine/ReactOS Projects, and the X11 API from Xorg, then > that would make it extremely flexible. I am thinking, looking at Nano-X will give me a couple of options, xwindows integration with the win libs (easier app porting etc) or at the very least a good place to learn. I am not 100% sure but I am nearly confident that Window's window managers follow a different model than xwindows. Windows 3.1 compliance is the most important thing anything else is will be a bi product of what I use. usul -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] What is the trick to get Windows 3.1 to run on freedos???
I have a VM with MS DOS 6.22, Windows 3.11, and Win32s available in a QEMU VM. If you need comparative testing, let me know. Thanks I am sure I will need lots of testing. I also need to buy it cause I barely remember how it looked and worked. :) -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] What is the trick to get Windows 3.1 to run on freedos???
On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 7:03 AM, King InuYasha wrote: > On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:51 PM, usul wrote: > >> "Realistically, someone should make a clone of Windows 3..0/3.11." >> >> Call it Janus or Snowball after the code names for Windows 3..0/3.11 >> :) >> >> I have been doing research on this and I am considering doing this. >> Since I wanted to make a GUI for FreeDos. :) Need a break from package >> building on the new release, either I am doing it wrong or it is a slow >> process. >> >> I think I have a lot of good things to start >> >> Wine Project/Reactos (they had a Win 16 Compatibility Library) >> HX DOS Extender http://www.japheth.de/HX.html >> wxMGL http://www.wxwidgets.org/about/wxuniv.htm >> NanoX http://www.microwindows.org/ >> >> I still need to buy a copy of MSDOS 6.22 & Window's 3.11 for >> comparison. Technical documentation on programing for and the design of >> Windows 3.11 would be helpful. >> >> "The goal shouldn't be to support the most recent programs, >> it should be to implement a Windows 3.x compatible gui for >> freedos that can run old Windows programs." >> >> I was thinking goal 1 would be to run old windows program >> but I see no need not to include newer functionality as well. >> For example older browsers probably would not run load >> websites very well, networking. WinFile at it was could not >> view compressed drives, or see NTFS etc. >> >> Any help/advice on this would also be greatly appreciated. >> >> > I have a VM with MS DOS 6.22, Windows 3.11, and Win32s available in a QEMU > VM. If you need comparative testing, let me know. > Also, some other info... * Calmira for GUI or someone could write a Program Manager for GUI like Windows 3.x. Personally, I like the style of Windows 3.x over the Windows 95 style of GUI. Because DOS HX Extender supports OpenGL, it is possible to use WineD3D to translate DirectX to OpenGL, so DirectX apps may not get left out anyway. Currently, this is how ReactOS emulates Direct3D. With the Nano-X server for DOS adapted to be up to date on Win16/Win32 APIs from the Wine/ReactOS Projects, and the X11 API from Xorg, then that would make it extremely flexible. -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] What is the trick to get Windows 3.1 to run on freedos???
On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 11:51 PM, usul wrote: > "Realistically, someone should make a clone of Windows 3..0/3.11." > > Call it Janus or Snowball after the code names for Windows 3..0/3.11 > :) > > I have been doing research on this and I am considering doing this. > Since I wanted to make a GUI for FreeDos. :) Need a break from package > building on the new release, either I am doing it wrong or it is a slow > process. > > I think I have a lot of good things to start > > Wine Project/Reactos (they had a Win 16 Compatibility Library) > HX DOS Extender http://www.japheth.de/HX.html > wxMGL http://www.wxwidgets.org/about/wxuniv.htm > NanoX http://www.microwindows.org/ > > I still need to buy a copy of MSDOS 6.22 & Window's 3.11 for > comparison. Technical documentation on programing for and the design of > Windows 3.11 would be helpful. > > "The goal shouldn't be to support the most recent programs, > it should be to implement a Windows 3.x compatible gui for > freedos that can run old Windows programs." > > I was thinking goal 1 would be to run old windows program > but I see no need not to include newer functionality as well. > For example older browsers probably would not run load > websites very well, networking. WinFile at it was could not > view compressed drives, or see NTFS etc. > > Any help/advice on this would also be greatly appreciated. > > I have a VM with MS DOS 6.22, Windows 3.11, and Win32s available in a QEMU VM. If you need comparative testing, let me know. -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] What is the trick to get Windows 3.1 to run on freedos???
"Realistically, someone should make a clone of Windows 3..0/3.11." Call it Janus or Snowball after the code names for Windows 3..0/3.11 :) I have been doing research on this and I am considering doing this. Since I wanted to make a GUI for FreeDos. :) Need a break from package building on the new release, either I am doing it wrong or it is a slow process. I think I have a lot of good things to start Wine Project/Reactos (they had a Win 16 Compatibility Library) HX DOS Extender http://www.japheth.de/HX.html wxMGL http://www.wxwidgets.org/about/wxuniv.htm NanoX http://www.microwindows.org/ I still need to buy a copy of MSDOS 6.22 & Window's 3.11 for comparison. Technical documentation on programing for and the design of Windows 3.11 would be helpful. "The goal shouldn't be to support the most recent programs, it should be to implement a Windows 3.x compatible gui for freedos that can run old Windows programs." I was thinking goal 1 would be to run old windows program but I see no need not to include newer functionality as well. For example older browsers probably would not run load websites very well, networking. WinFile at it was could not view compressed drives, or see NTFS etc. Any help/advice on this would also be greatly appreciated. -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] What is the trick to get Windows 3.1 to run on freedos???
I got Windows 3.1 running on Freedos using win /s, the Msdos 6.2x himem.sys and the MSDOS 6.2x emm386.exe. I also found out that share from freedos needs to be loaded low. Great, it ran. Trouble is, my mouse is on com4 and there are no windows drivers for a logitech mouse on com4. Argh! Something I noticed, maybe because I'm using the unstable kernel instead of the stable 2036 one, deltree doesn't work anymore. Realistically, someone should make a clone of Windows 3.1. This makes more sense than making freedos unstable. Windows 3.1 isn't that heavy, it couldn't be because computers in those days weren't that powerful. Windows 3.1 is closer to gem than Windows 95 is, although gem is more like the old Macs. The advantage of supporting windows on top of freedos is that ReactOS will be too heavy for old computers and it is years away. The goal shouldn't be to support the most recent programs, it should be to implement a Windows 3.x compatible gui for freedos that can run old Windows programs. The disadvantages of making Windows 3.1/3.11 run on top of freedos are at least the following: 1) Lack of motivation potentially to make freedos compatible. 2) It still belongs to Microsoft, will everyone use a pirated copy? 3) There are many date problems and possibly other bugs. 4) Freedos seems to become unstable when Windows 3.x is run on top of it. -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] What is the trick to get Windows 3.1 to run on freedos???
On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 10:23:44 +0200, I waved a wand and this message magically appears in front of Eric Auer: > The EMM386 does, and some DOS extenders / DPMI > hosts. The problem is that Windows in 386enh > mode and WfW 3.11 try to "take over" the work > from EMM386 which uses a complex "what exactly > are you doing at the moment?" interface called > GEMMIS which is not supported by any free open > source EMM386 yet. And actually Windows is the > ONLY software which ever used GEMMIS, so there > is not much motivation to implement it yet... Seems DOSBox 0.70+ supports GEMMIS, the sources are GPL, so it should be a simple matter to support it under FreeDOS. -- http://www.munted.org.uk Fearsome grindings. -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] What is the trick to get Windows 3.1 to run on freedos???
Hi! > I think I'm using the stable kernel instead of the > unstable one. > > I get an error that says essentially unload the > protected mode software and try again when windows > tries to start. Neither free-EMM386 nor JEMM386 is compatible with Windows 3.x 386enh mode or WfW 3.11... You would have to start Windows 3.x in the "standard mode" (WIN /S). Unfortunately the options in WfW 3.11 are more limited, their non-386enh mode is more like a "safe mode". Note that none of the Windows 3 versions can start if you give them more than 256 MB of RAM, or 1024 MB with a special configuration. > Are people taking out the smartdrive stuff or > simply adding a menu entry and if someone wants > windows loading it? Smartdrive? Menu entry? > BTW: I found out that curl can load a very large > file without crashing on my system, but using it > doesn't make fdupdate work. Maybe fdupdate or curl leaves open a file and you would have to load SHARE to get DOS happy? > Are there special tricks I need to know about > to get Windows 3.1 running on freedos? Do only > older versions of Windows work? See above - make sure you do not confuse 3.1 with Windows FOR WORKGROUPS 3.ELEVEN ;-). There is an experimental compile-time option for the unstable kernel which tries to make WfW 3.11 and 386enh run but Jeremy Davis who wrote it is hard to reach at the moment, it seems. www.mail-archive.com/freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net/msg08649.html www.deskwork.de/DOWNLOAD/DOS.HTM www.deskwork.de/INFOS/DOS.HTM#anc7 (German but useful - try Babelfish translations) > What on a typical freedos system runs in protected > mode? Maybe Windows 3.1 is stupid and it thinks > the system is in protected mode? The EMM386 does, and some DOS extenders / DPMI hosts. The problem is that Windows in 386enh mode and WfW 3.11 try to "take over" the work from EMM386 which uses a complex "what exactly are you doing at the moment?" interface called GEMMIS which is not supported by any free open source EMM386 yet. And actually Windows is the ONLY software which ever used GEMMIS, so there is not much motivation to implement it yet... > When I installed Windows 3.1, it seemed to start > up okay. I just can't get it back up is all. Interesting. Try to backup and compare the INI files at the next install ;-). And use WIN /S. Eric -- This SF.net email is sponsored by: High Quality Requirements in a Collaborative Environment. Download a free trial of Rational Requirements Composer Now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/www-ibm-com ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
