Re: [FRIAM] Movement vs. Behavior, and what's in the Black Box

Hi Jon, I predict that Eric is going to insist that behavior is necessarily at an instant. But carrying this principle out to its logical conclusion, I am not sure that being dead is not a behavior, or the limit of a behavior. Think for a moment about the baby rabbit that plays dead to

Re: [FRIAM] Movement vs. Behavior, and what's in the Black Box

I like this Eric. Thank you. Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam On Behalf Of

Re: [FRIAM] Movement vs. Behavior, and what's in the Black Box

Eric, I love that you brought *Weekend at Bernie's* into the discussion, wow, the 80's. I am not sure we *must* all agree that Bernie or the dead duck or the marionette are *just* moving because we may want to allow for transitions between domains of definition. Of course, we *can* all agree if

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

I think the phenomenologists would claim that until you have realized that all worlds are only “inner worlds”, you haven’t properly interpreted the informal use of the word “world” into a philosophically serious frame. Of course they are Continental Philosophers. So one has the option to

Re: [FRIAM] green swans

Dave - Thanks for the reference (and promise of a book report?). I take the meaning of "black swan" to be something more easily recognized in hindsight, but once recognized, seeming to be obvious, but also having a profound effect on the course of events. I think this is identical to a

[FRIAM] Movement vs. Behavior, and what's in the Black Box

Glen said: In principle, if EricC's principle is taken seriously, the inner world of a black box device will be *completely* represented on its surface. Any information not exhibited by a black box's *behavior* will be lost/random. David said: Machine "behavior" is either a metaphor or an

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Hi, Eric (Smith), I think you have made your decision. Forced to make a choice between "...engaging in an essential act of reason and discourse engaging in "a gambit to win a contest", I know where I would come down, and I assume you would come down in the same place. But I think that's a

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

So, in state space reconstruction, it seems, we're attempting to infer a structure that is *as* expressive as the data we feed it, similar I guess to deep learning or genetic programming. All the sci-fi movies focus on the brain (or maybe even the CNS). But what I'd like to see is something

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

...or reminisce about a favorite meal/libation you enjoyed 37 years ago while apprehending the Aurora Borealis at winter solstice in a northern Finland resort that overlooks the Russian Landscape across the border... How did you know?!!! Joke. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

On 5/5/20 4:38 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > "We record/observe *all* your behavior down to the minutest level... " > is impossible. Some of my work (not so much these days) has been in light-field capture as well as holography... so my metaphorical target domain comes from a fairly specific

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

"We record/observe *all* your behavior down to the minutest level... " is impossible. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Tue, May 5, 2020, 4:13 PM Steven A Smith wrote: > > On 5/5/20 3:04 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > > Dammit, Nick. I

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

On 5/5/20 3:04 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Dammit, Nick.  I can and frequently do spend hours planning, > remembering, composing emails, fantasizing about my next car, etc  > without exhibiting any remarkable behavior beyond eyeblinking, > touching my face (don't!), crossing and uncrossing my

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Thanks. I've read the Chemero one. And I've read something by Hutto, but I don't think it was that. Regardless, my (maybe testable) hypothesis is what I'm interested in: If a black box demonstrates behavior that can't be captured by any (known) algorithm, then that would be an indication that

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

That’s hilarious. From: Friam on behalf of Roger Critchlow Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 2:55 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

http://www.humansnotinvited.com/ -- rec -- On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 5:08 PM Marcus Daniels wrote: > Oh, you SAY you do. Someday we’ll get Neuralink hardware on you and then > WE WILL SEE. > > > > *From: *Friam on behalf of Frank Wimberly < > wimber...@gmail.com> > *Reply-To: *The Friday

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Glen said: "Were I to try to formulate the school I'm in, it would be that we are a dynamic system and the locus that we call "mind" moves around, sometimes more or less in one place/time, sometimes spread very thin. And that dynamism would be critical." So, there are a few varieties of that

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Oh, you SAY you do. Someday we’ll get Neuralink hardware on you and then WE WILL SEE. From: Friam on behalf of Frank Wimberly Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 2:04 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject:

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Dammit, Nick. I can and frequently do spend hours planning, remembering, composing emails, fantasizing about my next car, etc without exhibiting any remarkable behavior beyond eyeblinking, touching my face (don't!), crossing and uncrossing my legs. We've been through this before but what is my

Re: [FRIAM] Positively selected mutations

From another source (GenBank SRA data) I see several other mutations, A930T, which is in the HR1. This region in part determines how the virus fuses with a cell.They found one nearby at S943P.Here’s some context: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41422-020-0305-x I see some other

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

I'm not sure what school I'm in. But neither of those positions seems right to me. I tend to believe in (quasi)cycles and flows. E.g. when I'm dreaming, my mind is inside me. When I'm engrossed in some activity, my mind is spread over both inside and outside ... as if the skin between me and

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Well, if epigenesis, emergence, etc., has taught us anything it is that what goes on inside the organism is not reliably modeled by what the organism does. What I expect FRIAM is trying to digest here is which "mind" is a model of. Some hold that mind is "in" the organism; others that mind

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Your interpretation is not quite what I would have said, but close enough. You're also right about what I meant by "black box". But the point I was making is that if we take EricC's principle seriously, then anything that goes on inside the box can be accurately and precisely "surmised" from

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Glen, Whether you like it or not, you are yourself a master of world play, so I assume you don't mean word "games" pejoratively. But that is a different conversation. You wrote: . ..If EricC's principle is taken seriously, the inner world of a black box device will be *completely*

Re: [FRIAM] Positively selected mutations

Actually, I should wait and read the whole paper before posting on my phone. It's not a new new strain, it's the strain of Covid-19 that we've been dealing with on the east coast, a mutant first noticed in Italy in February, but it's been spreading quite successfully through Europe and North

Re: [FRIAM] Positively selected mutations

It’s co-evolving with humans on a massive scale.This is just a tiny window into the possible diversity. There’s no telling. Hey, but sure, no task force. Who needs it? From: Friam on behalf of Roger Critchlow Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Date:

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

More word games. OK. s/world/context/g. Is that better? On 5/5/20 12:43 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: > Oh. Isn't my 'world' that which surrounds me? Your world, that which > surrounds you? Etc. So for me to have an "inner world" I not only have to > climb inside me I have to climb

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Oh. Isn't my 'world' that which surrounds me? Your world, that which surrounds you? Etc. So for me to have an "inner world" I not only have to climb inside me I have to climb inside that world inside me. This is either an EXTREMELY complicated elaboration of the metaphor OR contradictory.

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Not at all. Why? On 5/5/20 12:35 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: > Careful. Isn't the formulation "inner world" entirely contradictory? -- ☣ uǝlƃ .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... . ... FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Hi,Glen, Careful. Isn't the formulation "inner world" entirely contradictory? N Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -Original Message- From: Friam On Behalf Of u?l? ?

Re: [FRIAM] Ranked Choice Voting app

Westworld reflects on this this season, although it is disguised as an examination of free will. From: Friam on behalf of Gillian Densmore Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 11:56 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee

Re: [FRIAM] Ranked Choice Voting app

Huh, thanks! Kat Williams (a comedian). Has a riff about that. Basically he felt at one time if you didn't have 'haters' (trolls) because of some issue they have. You might be doing it wrong. Basically if you don't have people challenging you (even as jackasses/trolls/haters) you need to step up

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

However, I think we can come up with a (maybe someday) testable hypothesis based on hidden states. In principle, if EricC's principle is taken seriously, the inner world of a black box device will be *completely* represented on its surface (ala the holographic principle). Any information not

Re: [FRIAM] Positively selected mutations

I think the implication is that there is a wave of more infectious covid building right now, just when everyone was looking for a chance to catch their breathand regroup. -- rec -- On Tue, May 5, 2020, 11:47 AM uǝlƃ ☣ wrote: > Thanks! So, is the implication that even after we get some one

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

behavior: 1) the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially toward others 2) the way in which an animal or person acts in response to a particular situation or stimulus. 3) the way in which a natural phenomenon or a machine works or functions Ignoring the first definition, is there a

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Hi, all, I agree with Eric’s first two points. Yay Pragmatic Maxim! On Eric’s third point: Ok, I think this conversation is starting to relate to others we have had on the list. What do we say when we discover that the next words out of our mouths are almost certainly to be

[FRIAM] Fwd: Join Us for an Online Salon Tomorrow: Viral Pandemics Past and Present

Perhaps of interest. Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h) *NM Foundation for Open Government* *Check out It's

Re: [FRIAM] Ranked Choice Voting app

Trolling gets a bad rap. I just finished this book: Hater, by John Semley https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/586135/hater-by-john-semley/ He does a very good job in a small book placing our modern (stigmatized) troll within the larger space of contrarians. And he talks about a lot of pop

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

It’s finally come full circle. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/science/xenobots-robots-frogs-xenopus.html From: Friam on behalf of Frank Wimberly Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 9:38 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

When I was on the faculty of the Robotics Institute at CMU our leader (fearless?),Raj Reddy, said that robots are artifacts that sense, think, and act. Robots are just computers with sensors, including cameras, and actuators. The "thinking" is the hard part. See Raibert, Marc H. and Francis C.

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename) On 5/5/20 9:29 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote: > Can one do an EEG of a computer?  -- ☣ uǝlƃ .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... . ... FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Put an AM radio next to a computer’s processor. From: Friam on behalf of "thompnicks...@gmail.com" Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Date: Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 9:30 AM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Warring

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

I think you have just identified the problem with dualism. Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Can one do an EEG of a computer? Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University thompnicks...@gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam On Behalf Of

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Quite a few things suddenly going on here 1) The "can computers act?" thing is a bit of a red herring, I think. We would be more obviously where we want to be by talking about robots, instead of computers. We could then separately discuss the issue of overt vs covert behavior (which has been

Re: [FRIAM] NYT shows King going negative

Nick writes: "And now they are moving back. It looks like the current strategy is to make the social security system solvent." If they were even that competent, which they are not. Marcus .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... . ... FRIAM Applied

Re: [FRIAM] NYT shows King going negative

Marcus, Glen, 'n all, Of course there are plenty of seeds out there. Until the White Vans are deployed, EVERY relaxation will the accompanied by an uptick. How could it be otherwise? Do you remember back in the early days of March when the strategy was to "flatten the curve" and "slow the

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Frank, Now THAT’s an example of a break through. If the next generation just married Alexa (“Yes, Matthew. I thought you would never ask. When you like to tie the knot?”), that would settle the environmental problem pretty quick. Nick Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of

Re: [FRIAM] green swans

One child? I thought you got SS payments. On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:57 AM wrote: > Hi, [again] David > > The idea of breakthrough suggests that "we" know where "we" are going. In > my life time, we have had a zillion breakthrough's only to screw things up > again through overpopulation and

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

On 5/5/20 9:47 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > You've never seen an EEG? Or probed around (carefully) with an oscilliscope/logic-analyzer probe in your phone while it is operating?          (no wonder my phones keep fritzing!) > > On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:45 AM >

Re: [FRIAM] green swans

Hi, [again] David The idea of breakthrough suggests that "we" know where "we" are going. In my life time, we have had a zillion breakthrough's only to screw things up again through overpopulation and greed. There is no breakthrough that does not include our some how agreeing that, say, one

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

> Maybe I missed something that makes this redundant but if a highschool > student asked me what the /hard problem/ is I would say:  There > appears to be no limit to how competent computers can be.  They seem > to be able to do just about anything that people think requires > thought.  But I am

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

You've never seen an EEG? On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:45 AM wrote: > Hi, Dave, > > > > So the same may be said of brains, right? Brain’s don’t behave. > > > > Where are you going with this? > > > > N > > > > Nicholas Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > > Clark University

Re: [FRIAM] Positively selected mutations

Thanks! So, is the implication that even after we get some one vaccine, it may not be very effective? Like the flu. The flu shot Renee' gets at the hospital include 4 strains, whereas the ones I get at my clinic have only 3. So, does this talk of a mutating spike imply something similar will be

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Hi, Dave, So the same may be said of brains, right? Brain’s don’t behave. Where are you going with this? N Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University thompnicks...@gmail.com

Re: [FRIAM] NYT shows King going negative

I have no such doubt. I'm just making a lazy attempt to track the effects of reopening on the number of cases. I only posted this one to caution anyone who might tend to rely on any single data source. DeKalb (hosting Atlanta) and King (hosting Seattle) are a good contrast due to their density

Re: [FRIAM] NYT shows King going negative

Is some question that there is still a seed to restart everything?It seems to me these trends are all subject to change as soon as distancing is relaxed. On 5/5/20, 8:16 AM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣" wrote: It's interesting that the NYT data shows King going negative (-36 cases)

[FRIAM] Positively selected mutations

Have you guys seen this one: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.29.069054v1 From Tanmoy Bhattacharya et al. Does not look like good news. Eric .-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ...

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

This is analogous to starving one's dog, then pointing at the corpse and asking: What is this behavior y'all are ascribing to dogs? On 5/5/20 4:27 AM, Prof David West wrote: > How does a computer behave? Or, what is a computer's behavior? I am looking > at my computer - actually four of them

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Thanks, Steve. I saw that and enjoyed it very much. --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Tue, May 5, 2020, 8:08 AM Steven A Smith wrote: > Frank- > > Given your anecdote, I strongly recommend watching the Spike Jonze's movie > HER which

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Frank- Given your anecdote, I strongly recommend watching the Spike Jonze's movie HER which has all the earmarks of a dystopian near-future but not to be a spoiler, it actually resolves very sweetly.   I believe the voice of "Her" is Scarlett Johannson.   Alan Watts makes an interesting Cameo. -

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

My grandson uses his Echo Dot extensively. A soft female voice answers his questions about spelling, arithmetic, geography, etc. The other day he asked, understandably, "Alexa, will you marry me?" She said, "I've decided to wait until Mars is colonized before making that commitment." Good

[FRIAM] green swans

Just ordered, hardcover (two weeks before it gets here probably) and kindle (will read later today.) Looks very interesting but will send review later. https://www.amazon.com/Green-Swans-Coming-Regenerative-Capitalism/dp/1732439125/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8=1588678839=8-1-spons "If

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Came across this yesterday afternoon: *"Psychology is not a science because it is too difficult. The scientific mind is usually orderly, with a natural love for order. It resents and tends to ignore fields in which order is not readily apparent. It gravitates to fields in which order is easily

Re: [FRIAM] Warring Darwinians for Glen, Steve

Allow Nick to say "a computer behaves as if it is thinking, therefore it is thinking." How does a computer behave? Or, what is a computer's behavior? I am looking at my computer - actually four of them (iPhone, tablet, laptop, and desktop) and the only behavior I see any of them exhibiting is