On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 11:06:36PM -0700, Steve Smith wrote:
Nick -
I recently read (probably in Russell's work or in one of the
references it took me to (Tegmark?)) a quote that complexity is a
quality, not a quantity (attributed to whom?).
Could be me, but if so its been misquoted. I
I'm not claiming that Windows has all the answers for all possible goals.
What I am pointing out is that in the case of a quite non-trivial
application there has been remarkable stability that has been missing from
both Mac and Linux environments. I haven't seen Microsoft being given
credit for
On 2/8/13 8:32 AM, Bruce Sherwood wrote:
What I'm objecting to is the facile assumption in computer-savvy
circles that obviously Windows and Microsoft are hopeless (roll the
eyes). That's not the whole story.
I agree with that. The operating system is solid, and the development
tools are
Although it might seem that I would have a similar view as Bruce since we both
support 3D graphics for educational purposes, my experience is exactly the
opposite of Bruce's. I have to support thousands of mostly CS students and
various professionals every year. Windows is an absolute nightmare
The difference is indeed that users of VPython (not me!) have no
involvement with C/C++, and no involvement with any kind of compiling.
Almost all of the VPython C++ code is platform-independent, thanks to use
of OpenGL, with no use of DirectX, and as I've said, the platform-dependent
code (make a
On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 10:06 AM, Bruce Sherwood bruce.sherw...@gmail.comwrote:
In the case of 64-bit Python on Windows, that compiler is a rather old
version of Visual Studio which required arcane edits of various Visual
Studio configuration files on my machine.
Bruce
rolls eyes
--
*Doug
Edward Angel wrote at 02/08/2013 08:02 AM:
Although it might seem that I would have a similar view as Bruce
since we both support 3D graphics for educational purposes, my
experience is exactly the opposite of Bruce's. [...]
Perhaps it's my own abstraction run amok, but this whole discussion
It's interesting that what Owen recommends is currently part of the SANS 20
Critical Controls for Effective Cyber Defense. Critical Control #2 is
Inventory of Authorized and Unauthorized Software. Wrapping this back around
to complexity - Alan Paller and the SANS crowd frequently claim that
I do agree with Glen's analysis (Complexity/Universality/Expressivity)
as far as I can follow it.
I also agree with Marcus' (and Doug's) bottom line that when
developing mission-critical applications (where understanding the
details of the roundoff and other errors introduced at the
I'm getting worried about myself, because I am not only starting to enjoy
these wordy expostulations, I'm even beginning to look forward to them with
a small degree of anticipation. Is FRIAM contagious?
On to the fluffing (or larding, depending on your gender/preference):
On Fri, Feb 8, 2013
Steve Smith wrote at 02/08/2013 10:49 AM:
There is nothing in the universe I
hate more than the single character '\' !
Hate is a strong word. But I feel it when I have to SCP files with
spaces in them ... which Microsoft and Apple people seem to be fond of.
I think the most irritating thing
On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote:
Bruce's experience supporting a relatively small but significant toolset
for a broad audience is also valid. The broadest audience for his type of
work is naturally the largest installed base (Windows by a factor of 4?).
All,
When I first moved here, seven years ago, Owen set me down and eldered me
concerning citizens like me who have no respect for threads, whereas,
people like YOU, people who really are experienced with computers, see the
importance of not bending threads But this is the worst gang of
Nicholas Thompson wrote at 02/08/2013 11:44 AM:
I have have two quite contradictory definitions floating around in my
head: (1) the number of bits and pieces x the number of kinds of bits
and pieces or (2)the number of organizational levels in the system.
The two definitions work at cross
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/02/08/1516238/ms-targets-google-with-another-smear-campaign
--
*Doug Roberts
d...@parrot-farm.net*
*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins*http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins
* http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins
505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile*
It is indeed an eye-roller. But it's more a Python eye-roller than a
Microsoft or Windows eye-roller. If I remember correctly, it was Owen who
some months ago pointed out some unfortunate aspects of the Python ecology.
On the one hand, Python is very open to adding modules written in compiled
Roger wrote:
VPython is an OpenGL based package. If VPython runs stably on Windows,
it's no thanks to Microsoft, Microsoft has been doing its best to embrace,
devour, and kill OpenGL since 1995.
The kind of freedom OpenGL (or OpenCL) gives is the kind I don't want.
It's the tunnel between
So, Roger, you've just given additional, very compelling evidence for
Microsoft incompetence! They weren't even able to kill OpenGL!
Seriously though, the OpenGL piece hasn't been a problem on any platform
except for Ubuntu, where off and on there's a serious problem with VPython
users trying to
Nice. Now how do I disable the behavior of Google of not revealing the raw
underlying URLs for Copy/Link? My solution is to use Bing!
Marcus
myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft® Windows® and Linux web and application
hosting
Bing, who simply re-hosts Google's search results. One big happy family!
:)
On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:50 PM, mar...@snoutfarm.com
mar...@snoutfarm.comwrote:
Nice. Now how do I disable the behavior of Google of not revealing the raw
underlying URLs for Copy/Link? My solution is to use Bing!
It's hard to buy into that argument when it leaves us at the mercy of
incompatible versions of Direct X and problems of dealing with third party
drivers. In many ways, most the difficulties we experience started with and
continue to be driven by the game world. For many years graphics and
Elder Dog -
I'm getting worried about myself, because I am not only starting to
enjoy these wordy expostulations, I'm even beginning to look forward
to them with a small degree of anticipation. Is FRIAM contagious?
Yes... and you grow on the rest of us too!
On to the fluffing (or larding,
Ed wrote:
It's hard to buy into that argument when it leaves us at the mercy of
incompatible versions of Direct X and problems of dealing with third party
drivers.
VMware and VirtualBox both have 3D acceleration layers...
Marcus
Glen -
There is nothing in the universe I
hate more than the single character '\' !
Hate is a strong word.
Ok... hyperbole. But it does elicit physical reactions when I try to
type it! Even here in e-mail '\' ouch! .
But I feel it when I have to SCP files with
spaces in them ... which
Steve wrote:
My point (if I ever have one, and then not lost in the expansive
expostulation) is primarily that these are religious wars and even the
avowed athiests (proponents of non-commercial, open source, etc) are
battling from a similar position to their hated rivals.
If you think that a
I want the one good world, not a dozen crappy ones. Marcus
grin as do all religious zealots of all stripes from everywhere! /grin
The ecology I live in is a swamp, a morass, a milieu...
I understand why others might want the swamp drained and a condo custom
built for them with all the
Edward Angel wrote at 02/08/2013 12:57 PM:
For many years
graphics and mathematical software was driven by the scientific
community which valued stability and backward compatibility. When the
market became dominated by game players who are willing to replace their
entire systems every year,
The ecology I live in is a swamp, a morass, a milieu...
The swamp will always form. You don't have to care about a swamp.
Marcus
mail2web LIVE Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology -
Glen wrote:
Instead, you keep (or
reconstruct) the _machine_ that was used for the original research. To
the extent that's not reasonable, then you run your experiments with an
alternative machine and characterize how the variation introduced by the
machine percolates into the variation in the
That list of CygWin library names that Marcus posted flashed me back to a
very unpleasant experience that occurred in the mid-90's or so at LANL. We
had a client who refused to run on anything but Windows boxes. And he
wanted to run our Synthetic Population software. Which was designed to run
mar...@snoutfarm.com wrote at 02/08/2013 01:45 PM:
The value of forgetting... The constructive process of making the new
version of the old machine makes the person/group re-examine a lot of
issues that are worth re-examining, rather than taking as received wisdom.
And thank Cthulu, too.
I probably should not pick such a nit, but all of Silicon Valley would
haunt me for years.
The term actually used there is civilian. I don't know exactly why it
was became so popular in the 70's but I believe it is when it was first
used relating to computing.
Naturally it was used by the
I have no problem with people following such an approach but for most of us in
the scientific community it doesn't work.
Consider two examples: mathematical software and graphics/GPU capabilities.
Much of the mathematical software that is still crucial to many of us was
developed back in the
Since the previous topics briefly touched on aging software-type people, I
thought I'd share this observation. Over on Android Police,
http://www.androidpolice.com/ , which really seems to be the goto place to
get current news about all aspects of Android, I've noticed that the
average age of the
In the UN we used the term civil society.
Ah the vocabulary of silos.
Enjoyed attending FRIAM again.
Paul
-Original Message-
From: Owen Densmore o...@backspaces.net
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group friam@redfish.com
Sent: Fri, Feb 8, 2013 2:59 pm
Subject: Re:
Ed wrote:
If you want some further evidence, take a look at the membership of Kronos
committees. The research and education communities are almost totally
unrepresented on any of them and they are the ones that are setting the
standards that will determine the next generation of hardware and
I wrote:
For example, for a while AMD used OpenCL to discriminate
themselves from nVidia (the little guy in *that* example).
To clarify,
nVidia likes OpenGL - Microsoft is competitor with DirectX. Competitors
are bad.
AMD likes OpenCL - nVidia competitor with CUDA. Competitors are bad.
nVidia
On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 01:47:08PM -0700, Bruce Sherwood wrote:
So, Roger, you've just given additional, very compelling evidence for
Microsoft incompetence! They weren't even able to kill OpenGL!
Seriously though, the OpenGL piece hasn't been a problem on any platform
except for Ubuntu,
The ecology I live in is a swamp, a morass, a milieu...
Marcus noted:
The swamp will always form. You don't have to care about a swamp.
I think you mean you don't have to care *for* a swamp ?
I agree, that is why I live in a swamp. I care for my tools but let the
morass flourish.
CP/M
Added to that, OpenCL was light years behind CUDA (at least that was
the case two years ago, when I looked at it last). I can understand
nVidia making sure their product is OpenCL compatible, but putting
their RD into CUDA. To be quite honest, it is damn hard to get
cutting edge RD into APIs
Steve wrote:
I agree, that is why I live in a swamp. I care for my tools but let the
morass flourish.
Ok, let me be concrete. Consider GNU Autoconf or CMAKE. They are just a
part the morass, even though they aim to cope with it. They wouldn't exist
but for the morass. Huge amounts of effort
In response to Marcus: Of course they work that way.
But they are far from monolithic. For example, Nvidia was the company that
pushed OpenGL 3.0 to announce that starting with 3.1, a tremendous amount of
functionality would be deprecated, thus rendering most existing OpenGL
applications to
Ed wrote:
Mesa is a viable alternative except that you are still stuck with the
standard that comes out of Kronos.
Mesa developers can add whatever extensions they want. What matters is what
becomes popular with open source application developers. Users of Mesa
could just decide like like
On Fri, Feb 08, 2013 at 04:40:54PM -0700, Edward Angel wrote:
In response to Russell: Cg was light years ahead of GLSL but GLSL overtook it
and even though there are elements of Cg that are better than GLSL. GLSL is
core to OpenGL and has evolved so it performs well. Cg is now pretty head. I
To me, it's debatable whether switching from hardcopy books to ebooks is a net
environmental plus. However, living down here in Ecuador makes it a real pain
in the butt to get hardcopies of technical books, especially in English. So
far, I've been reading PDFs on my laptop, but the screen is
In case this isn't a well-known tool, I'll mention that I've been pleased
with Inno Setup (http://www.jrsoftware.org/isinfo.php) for building
installers for Windows. I've used it for many years.
Bruce
On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Russell Standish r.stand...@unsw.edu.auwrote:
On the plus
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