Re: [Audyssey] interactive fiction test game
Hi, Well, for what it is worth you certainly are on the right track. For example, the "examine" command could include so much more than a visual description. As you pointed out an author could include weight, texture, sound, smell, etc to give it more meaning to someone who is blind. For example, let's assume we want to examine a Christmas tree. "examine tree" "Before you stands a 12 foot tall dark green Christmas tree decorated in red, blue, and yellow lights with silver, gold, and red balls. As you happily examine the Christmas tree you smell the wonderful sent of pine that reminds you of the forest near your home. As you lay a hand on the tree you feel the sharp prickle of pine needles against your skin." This is a simple example of how the examine command can be improved. It gives a visual description of the Christmas tree, but adds in some extra sensory descriptions like smell and the feel of the pine needles against your skin. We could, of course, go into even more detail, but this is probably enough to set the mood. On 11/14/10, neoph...@inthecompanyofgrues.com wrote: > > A few quick questions and answers. > > Am I going to show this little test to anyone outside of this list? > Really short answer: heck, no. The game was only written to test out the > prompt and status line features. As I mentioned in my previous comment, > this is not intended to be a game in its own right, or become one. It's > just my little test bed. The only aspects I want to share with other > sighted authors is the benefit of changing the prompt, removing the status > line and considering adding more sensory descriptions. For example, > hearing a clock, rather than just seeing it. I do like the idea of setting > up additional sensory commands, though. Even being sighted, I feel like a > lot of interactive fiction just focuses on what can be seen. Why can't the > command "examine", for example, also include holding an object and getting > a feel for its weight, or texture? > > What's with all the references to distances and so on? > Yeah, sorry. It's all ignorance on my behalf and unfortunately part of the > learning process. I think sighted people try so hard to do the right > thing, or show that we're wanting to understand, that we end up doing the > wrong thing anyway! It's quite interesting the way you talk about fitting > into mainstream society. For me, it's exactly the same, trying to fit in > here at Audyssey. So, thank you so much, I really do appreciate the > clarification and education. Not to mention the cool ideas you guys come > up with. It really does help. > > What's the plan? > Well, to be honest, I'm not sure right now. Yes, I'm committed to creating > a document that looks at practical ways interactive fiction can be made > more accessible. When that's written I'll be letting some key people read > it and respond, so that I don't make any big mistakes or phrase something > poorly. > > In addition I'm currently learning to code in Inform 7. What I'd love to > do is write an extension that defines a really easy way to make Choose > Your Own Adventure style games in Inform 7, complete with a few options > that I'm playing around with to reduce the babble. > > After that, I'm thinking of starting up a short form multiple choice story > competition (with some reasonable cash prizes) to encourage people to get > their creative juices flowing. It's particularly for those who aren't > coding minded, but there will be an innovation prize. > > Well, I hope that clarifies a few things. > > Cheers, > > Neophyte. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] interactive fiction test game
Hi Phil, Yep, and my apartment door is about 30 steps from the laundry room. Better to count than tapping the walls of my neighbors the whole way down the hall. BFN Jim Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts - Albert Einstein j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] interactive fiction test game
Hi Phil, While those are valid pints, in IF games you hardly, if ever, hear descriptions of how many step this or that is away from you. Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Phil Vlasak Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 6:27 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] interactive fiction test game Hi Thomas, I do have one objection to your disliking the description that the room was 7 feet away. This is a valid description in many games. Sighted games do not need to describe the distance to things as you can see them and as you get closer you can then judge when you will reach them by how far you have moved each step. When I hear that a book is 20 feet away, and I hit the arrow key once to get closer and it is now 18 feet, then I can figure how many arrow hits will take me to it. There are even times such as on treasure maps that the map says go 20 steps north, or go 30 steps towards the lake. I do find my mail box by counting steps even though I have a cane. I go 26 steps, then swing the cane and the mail box in front of our house is usually within the reach of the cane. What I would object to is the game saying that the book is over there. Implying that there is a visual arrow pointing to it. It would be interesting to have a game describe all the senses with different hot keys. Such as, L for visual saying that you are in a kitchen with a table and chairs and a door to the north. Shift L for hearing, in that you might hear faint voices in the next room. control l for smell, which would describe the burnt toast on the table. and control shift l that would allow you to feel the closest object, such as the plate feels dirty. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] interactive fiction test game
Hi Phil, I think you missed the point. It didn't say 7 feet away. It said 7 steps away which is a big difference. If it said 7 feet away, as a general description of distance, etc I would have been okay with that. In any case this is an interactive fiction type game where distances don't matter much to begin with. typing 'east" takes you to the bath room weather it is 7 feet, 7 steps, or 700 feet away. So distance is sort of a mute point in this case. Cheers! On 11/14/10, Phil Vlasak wrote: > Hi Thomas, > I do have one objection to your disliking the description > that the room was 7 feet away. > This is a valid description in many games. > Sighted games do not need to describe the distance to things as you can see > them and as you get closer you can then judge when you will reach them by > how far you have moved each step. > When I hear that a book is 20 feet away, and I hit the arrow key once to get > closer and it is now 18 feet, then I can figure how many arrow hits will > take me to it. > > There are even times such as on treasure maps that the map says go 20 steps > north, or go 30 steps towards the lake. > I do find my mail box by counting steps even though I have a cane. > I go 26 steps, then swing the cane and the mail box in front of our house is > usually within the reach of the cane. > > What I would object to is the game saying > that the book is over there. > Implying that there is a visual arrow pointing to it. > It would be interesting to have a game describe all the senses with > different hot keys. > Such as, L for visual saying that you are in a kitchen with a table and > chairs and a door to the north. > Shift L for hearing, in that you might hear faint voices in the next room. > control l for smell, which would describe the burnt toast on the table. > and control shift l that would allow you to feel the closest object, such as > the plate feels dirty. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] interactive fiction test game
Hi Thomas, I do have one objection to your disliking the description that the room was 7 feet away. This is a valid description in many games. Sighted games do not need to describe the distance to things as you can see them and as you get closer you can then judge when you will reach them by how far you have moved each step. When I hear that a book is 20 feet away, and I hit the arrow key once to get closer and it is now 18 feet, then I can figure how many arrow hits will take me to it. There are even times such as on treasure maps that the map says go 20 steps north, or go 30 steps towards the lake. I do find my mail box by counting steps even though I have a cane. I go 26 steps, then swing the cane and the mail box in front of our house is usually within the reach of the cane. What I would object to is the game saying that the book is over there. Implying that there is a visual arrow pointing to it. It would be interesting to have a game describe all the senses with different hot keys. Such as, L for visual saying that you are in a kitchen with a table and chairs and a door to the north. Shift L for hearing, in that you might hear faint voices in the next room. control l for smell, which would describe the burnt toast on the table. and control shift l that would allow you to feel the closest object, such as the plate feels dirty. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] interactive fiction test game
Hi, Glad I could help. The over all point I wanted to make was simply don't be afraid to use common terminology to describe things in the game or to use as commands. Most of us wouldn't be offended by terms like look, see, watch, etc because we often use them to fit in with mainstream society anyway. When we start down the politically correct path, by changing a command from "look" to "perceive" we are setting the blind individual up to be a special class of person apart from anyone else when in fact all we want is to fit in with mainstream society as best as we can. Most of us want to be treated like anyone else with the exception our eyes are bad and sometimes we need special equipment, software, etc to be equal with our mainstream counterparts. Here is a case in point. I don't know if you intend to show other interactive fiction developers your test game or not, but if you were I'd prefer it to be done right. By "done right" I mean treat it as any other interactive fiction title but trim out some of the babble as you have done and the "Your command?" line is fine too. the last thing we would want is for other interactive fiction developers to think they have to say this or that is so many steps away or that they have to add special commands like "perceive" instead of "look" to keep from offending somebody. That's not at all necessary. So what I'm getting at is since you are writing an article on this we need to have a clear idea of what to do and what not to do in future interactive fiction titles. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] interactive fiction test game
Hey Thomas, Great, I'm glad the babble is down. Thanks for taking the time to explain why messing with the "look" command is a bad idea. I know any attempt by a sighted person to understand blindness is fraught with problems, so thanks for not biting my head off and explaining it all to me in such a clear way. The test room really isn't intended to be a game, so any of the descriptions and the player character were not indicative of one I'm working on. I do like the idea of creating a way to see the world other than by sight alone, but I'll experiment with that in other ways. Once again, thanks for the feedback. Cheers, Neophyte. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] interactive fiction test game
These days, I've actually taken to asking people and making them think. When someone inevitably starts up with "I don't want to offend you" followed by a site question, I ask people why they think I might be offended, and whether they'd considdered the fact that if I did find things like use of the word "look" or questions about my site offensive, I'd spend a heck of a long time being offended! Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] interactive fiction test game
I agree with Tom on all counts here, the "you command?" was perfect on the prompt. Look is easier to type. It might be fun however to have specific other responses to other sensory commands, eg, look is a general, but feel, listen give you other specific information, - actually that might be awsome in a horror type game. Also, bare in mind not everyone classified as blind has no vision. I myself am registered blind in the uk, read braille and use speech synthesis, but stil have a small amount of vision which I make use of, so for me "look" is logical on this score as well, especially if distinguished from other sensary commands, especially sinse I personally tend to use a lot of senses in combination, for instance sets of land marks some of which will be visual, some tactile, some smell (as I said this might actually be fun in the game, say look giving a general impression and other senses giving more specific ones). Btw, one thing which always amuses me is how people seem to think it is impossible for me to use a flight of stairs. Frequently, I get directed to lifts for no reason. yes, falling down stairs would be bad, but that's what I carry the cane for, my legs are fine, it's just my eyeballs that are disfunctional ;D. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] interactive fiction test game
Exactly! Good vocab point there. Had to explain that hundreds of times to people who just don't get it. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] interactive fiction test game
Hi, Okay, thanks to Phils' link I have just tried the test game. Naturally I have a few comments about it. First, good job on cutting down the extra babble. I really appreciated the fact that the test game cut out all the extra stuff like moves and such and only told you exactly what you want to hear. That is good. Second, I have a bit of a complaint. I really didn't like the "look" command being changed to "perceive." That was, well, quite weird. As I was not blind from birth I have no problem with things like "look" even if it describes the seen as well as adds in some sound and smells. After all, many blind people say "see you later" when in fact they can't see, but it is widely accepted as the proper thing to say. It wwould be unacceptable to walk up to a woman and say to her "feel you later" or to say "smell you later" even though both are valid from a blind person's perspective. In other words, what I'm saying is even though I'm blind I use the same vocabulary as the average guy out there. It is just that I give certain words different meaning. Instead of "see you later" that translates to "meet you later" or something like that. Instead of "I'm going to watch the football game" that translates to to "I'm going to listen to the football game." Using watch instead of listen is for convenience sake, and sounds more normal. So I don't think we need to change some of the commands in the game from "look" to "perceive" even though that might be true. Just make those commands more descriptive in terms of sounds, smell, feel, etc. Finally, I noticed on the main screen it says something to the effect the bath room is 7 steps to the east. It is not necessary to describe things in terms of steps. No blind person counts steps, and simply stating this or that is east, west, north, or south is enough. You probably wonder why I am making this an issue, but I have a good reason. In short, ever since I lost my sight about 15 years ago I've noticed lots of sighted people have unrealistic stereotypes about my abilities. I might visit somebody and they right away start trying to tell me the couch is 5 steps away to the left or something like that. While I see they are trying to be helpful they are under the assumption i have to count steps etc to get around when I'm perfectly capable of finding the couch without counting steps. After all, that's what my cane is for. However, I'm constantly meeting people with unrealistic ideas of what I can or can not do and they try to open my food for me, tell me this or that is x feet away, or some other sighted stereotype about my abilities. So when I read you say the bath room was 7 feet away it right away reminded me of those stereotypes. HTH --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] interactive fiction test game
Ok, could now try it out, but in winfrotz 1.16, while it will tell me to use the perceive command, instead of look, it then tells me it doesn't recognise the command, and the only thing/object it will in fact let me examine is self...? The "Your command?" prompt does seem to work nicely though. Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: "Phil Vlasak" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:25 PM Subject: [Audyssey] interactive fiction test game Hi Neophyte, There is a problem with the link to Test.z5, the T in test should be capitalized which makes a difference in download links. Try this one, http://www.inthecompanyofgrues.com/interactivefiction/Test.z5 - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 7:15 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Changing the greater than symbol in interactivefiction Hi there, Thanks for all the suggestions! I've created a very small test room to try out. You can download it from this url: www.inthecompanyofgrues.com/interactivefiction/test.z5 I've switched the command prompt from the greater than symbol to the phrase "Your command?". I thought it sounded better than "Your turn?" which just makes me want to type the answer, "yes". Also removed are the two status lines. This means that with every turn you don't get a garbled message stating the location description and the number of moves you've made. There's not much to do in the game. You can examine yourself, move between the bedroom and the ensuite, and that's pretty much it. But it should give you an idea as to the changes and what will be spoken each turn. If you type "look", or any variation of that command, you will get a special message. I was playing around with the idea of perception as opposed to sight. That is, being able to hear things, smell things or sense that things are there. But it requires setting up a whole bunch of rules and actions and tests, and I'm still not that knowledgable about coding with Inform 7. Over time, I'm going to work towards setting up a system like that. But, for now, I just wanted to hear your thoughts on the changes I've made. I've tested it out in WinFrotz TTS and, wow, the difference was fantastic. Well, at least, to my poorly untrained ears. Smiles. Thanks again for the suggestions. Cheers, Neophyte. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.869 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3254 - Release Date: 11/13/10 02:34:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5618 (20101114) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5619 (20101114) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
