Re: [gentoo-dev] alternative solution for 'procmail-impaired' folks
Vlastimil Babka napsal(a): > Steve Long wrote: >> And no, I don't like being lumped in with Mr McCreesh. > > Why would anyone do that? His trolling is sophisticated, but you're just > an annoying spammer. Can we please stop this direction? My ZOMG was there to share my frustration from getting my mailbox flooded by stuff I'm totally not interested in and which has nothing to do with gentoo *development*. For less sucky ways of expressing similar feelings as mine, please refer to http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_131667.xml - sadly, the picture is gone now :( To bring this debate back on track - the current council proposal *fails* to address the real problem: people should not be required to be subscribed to gentoo-dev (moderated or non-moderated) and important announcements should be directed to a different (IMO read-only) list. Why don't we use current gentoo-announce list for seems to exist for this exact purpose? In that way, people who wish to participate in on-topic, off-topic or straight retarded debates would still have the choice to do so, while not forcing the majority of others to 'mark folder as read' every 6 hours. TIA. -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] So...
On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 15:06 -0400, Doug Goldstein wrote: > So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves to > debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit vs > Celcius... > > Discuss! Well from my POV you have about 13 assholes 14 including me that felt the need need to comment on this stupid ass thread. -- Ned Ludd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gentoo Linux -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC : New ebuild function pkg_create for creating corespondent sorce tarball
Alin Năstac kirjoitti: > Marius Mauch wrote: >> Two questions: >> - are there more packages that could benefit from this? >> > > None that I know of. However, there might be other similar packages > without a source tarball (slim chance, but quite possible). At first, I > asked upstream to provide such tarball, but I got refused because > "SourceForge file release process is far too annoying". > As a side note, if bitpim wasn't such a fairly popular package, I > wouldn't even bother with it (personally I don't use it). > This is not uncommon in the Java land. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC : New ebuild function pkg_create for creating corespondent sorce tarball
On Tuesday 17 July 2007, Marius Mauch wrote:
> Alin Năstac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I was asked to discuss here a portage enhancement proposed by me [1].
> >
> > Basically I need a pkg_create() that will be executed only in the
> > context of the upcoming "ebuild ${PF}.ebuild create" command.
> >
> > The package where I need it is app-mobilephone/bitpim. The upstream
> > doesn't offer a source tarball, so I need to construct it myself from
> > their svn repository. Up till recently, I used some hackery in
> > pkg_setup() to create it
> > (see the ebuild), but now "ebuild $PF.ebuild setup" verify the digest
> > before running pkg_setup().
> >
> > [1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=185567
>
> Two questions:
> - are there more packages that could benefit from this?
> - is there a particular reason this has to be integrated into the
> ebuild and should not be handled by an ordinary script?
i'll have to ponder for a while, but in the past, i could have made use of
something like this ... lacking it, i had hand written scripts to do it for
me. every case where i needed this though it was a similar situation --
upstream did not provide a release, but did provide SCM access. actually,
netpbm is another example of where this could be utilized as they only tag
releases in their svn, not roll tarballs ...
-mike
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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC : New ebuild function pkg_create for creating corespondent sorce tarball
Marius Mauch wrote: > Two questions: > - are there more packages that could benefit from this? > None that I know of. However, there might be other similar packages without a source tarball (slim chance, but quite possible). At first, I asked upstream to provide such tarball, but I got refused because "SourceForge file release process is far too annoying". As a side note, if bitpim wasn't such a fairly popular package, I wouldn't even bother with it (personally I don't use it). > - is there a particular reason this has to be integrated into the > ebuild and should not be handled by an ordinary script? > There are 2 reasons: a) convenience - no need to pass version to the script b) maintainability - easy to take over when I will be gone P.S: The name proposed by me isn't exactly right, as Mike already remarked on the bug. I suggest to use src_create as function name. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC : New ebuild function pkg_create for creating corespondent sorce tarball
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:25:02 +0300
Alin Năstac <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was asked to discuss here a portage enhancement proposed by me [1].
>
> Basically I need a pkg_create() that will be executed only in the
> context of the upcoming "ebuild ${PF}.ebuild create" command.
>
> The package where I need it is app-mobilephone/bitpim. The upstream
> doesn't offer a source tarball, so I need to construct it myself from
> their svn repository. Up till recently, I used some hackery in
> pkg_setup() to create it
> (see the ebuild), but now "ebuild $PF.ebuild setup" verify the digest
> before running pkg_setup().
>
> [1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=185567
Two questions:
- are there more packages that could benefit from this?
- is there a particular reason this has to be integrated into the
ebuild and should not be handled by an ordinary script?
Marius
--
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub
In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.
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[gentoo-dev] RFC : New ebuild function pkg_create for creating corespondent sorce tarball
I was asked to discuss here a portage enhancement proposed by me [1].
Basically I need a pkg_create() that will be executed only in the
context of the upcoming "ebuild ${PF}.ebuild create" command.
The package where I need it is app-mobilephone/bitpim. The upstream doesn't
offer a source tarball, so I need to construct it myself from their svn
repository. Up till recently, I used some hackery in pkg_setup() to
create it
(see the ebuild), but now "ebuild $PF.ebuild setup" verify the digest before
running pkg_setup().
[1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=185567
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Re: [gentoo-dev] About to retire
On Monday 16 July 2007, Peter Volkov wrote: > В Пнд, 16/07/2007 в 10:50 -0700, Ned Ludd пишет: > > net-firewall/ebtables > > net-misc/netkit-telnetd > > taken. > > base-system, are there any objections if I add you as the herd? related > applications like iptables and other netkit-* apps belongs to your > herd... i wonder if netmon wouldnt be more suitable ... but i wouldnt wish iptables on anyone so sure, putting netkit-* and iptables' friends into base-system is OK -mike signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: New developer: Pierre-Yves Rofes (p-y)
Luis Francisco Araujo wrote: > Steve Long wrote: >> Petteri Räty wrote: >> >>> It's a joint pleasure for me and diox to introduce to you Pierre-Yves >>> "py" Rofes. Instead of the snake people he will be joining our security >>> team. Py originates from Paris, France, and has just finished his >>> studies in computer science. He'll be hired soon (or maybe already was?) >>> as a security network engineer for a small consulting company. >>> >> YAY! aiui there's only 4 or 5 people in the security team, so well done >> for getting another sucker^H^H^H volunteer, Tavis. >> > > Can you please stop sending these kind of harmful emails? > It was a joke araujo, and not in the same context as any other mail. I have seen many others similar, and if you or any one else wishes to raise it with the proctors, the council or whoever else, I will look for the precedents in the mailing-list archives. > Thanks, > yw. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Steve Long wrote: > And no, I don't like being lumped in with Mr McCreesh. Why would anyone do that? His trolling is sophisticated, but you're just an annoying spammer. - -- Vlastimil Babka (Caster) Gentoo/Java -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGnC4+tbrAj05h3oQRAogfAJsHwaCR8rOhveFWrmODgKheBHPTyQCgjx1G uhvlN37SxRrUWS9MaRoIMis= =s82z -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] So...
Richard Freeman wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dale wrote: On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:06:37 -0400 Doug Goldstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves to debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit vs Celcius... Well, let's throw in the effect of humidity too. Well, as one of the nicer off-topic threads on this list, might I mention that I always wanted to patent a thermostat that regulates heat index (or comfort index - a combination of temp and humidity) instead of temperature. And not just a humidistat - I don't want to dump water into the air if it is dry - I just want to turn down the AC when it is dry... Then again, I guess this post pretty-much obliterates my chance of getting a patent. Then again, maybe somebody already has one but isn't bothering to manufacture them - that would explain why I can't find one for sale anywhere. Instead I just have to set my temperature lower at night to compensate for increased humidity - which is really just a lousy hack. Where is the Honeywell bugzilla when you need it... :) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGm9IxG4/rWKZmVWkRAmXiAJ9dSlKqiNnT+oe/CTlkpQfg8c4QBwCeJww5 OowzzLLzZXJ4q686Nu2JDns= =u+Mh -END PGP SIGNATURE- That's an awesome idea. Seriously, get this made. I want to buy one now. You name the price! Amazingly enough, this thread brought up a product development discussion after all. -- Doug Goldstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://dev.gentoo.org/~cardoe/ -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)
Steve Long wrote: Perhaps you'd like to explain just how Mr Gianelloni's post was NOT a troll then? Or is every developer's procmail setting (particularly for such a stupid thread) a matter we should all be discussing? It's not like amne never pointed out, several mails ago, that the whole thread had been done to death or anything, is it? And no, I don't like being lumped in with Mr McCreesh. Mate, chill out. We've all had our say and everyone is keeping quiet. Methinks that is the best idea now for everyone involved in this subject. Capiche? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)
Steve Long wrote: Perhaps you'd like to explain just how Mr Gianelloni's post was NOT a troll then? Or is every developer's procmail setting (particularly for such a stupid thread) a matter we should all be discussing? It's not like amne never pointed out, several mails ago, that the whole thread had been done to death or anything, is it? And no, I don't like being lumped in with Mr McCreesh. Mate, chill out. We've all had our say and everyone is keeping quiet. Methinks that is the best idea now for everyone involved in this subject. Capiche? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)
Ryan Hill wrote: > Steve Long wrote: >> Chris Gianelloni wrote: >> >>> :0 >>> * ^List-Id:.gentoo-dev.gentoo.org. >>> * ^Subject:.*ML changes >>> /dev/null >>> >> Sorry was there some reason the rest of us had to read this? If so, >> please explain it like a responsible Council member. Or is this your >> swansong? If so it's l4m3. > > Please stop blatantly trolling. It will not be tolerated on this list. > Perhaps you'd like to explain just how Mr Gianelloni's post was NOT a troll then? Or is every developer's procmail setting (particularly for such a stupid thread) a matter we should all be discussing? It's not like amne never pointed out, several mails ago, that the whole thread had been done to death or anything, is it? And no, I don't like being lumped in with Mr McCreesh. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
Chrissy Fullam wrote: Could we try to keep this thread, and all the similarly named ones, on topic? The pointing fingers, trash talking, etc is not furthering anything. If you don't like councils opinion, or someone elses opinion, well respect them enough to allow them their own opinion. The real topic at hand is about this mailing list and the proposed changes. If you don't like those proposed changes, please think it through and make alternative suggestions. The original proposed idea: * Make -dev a moderated mailing list, imposing a delay on all emails sent by non-developers and adding devs to that same list as needed. All emails should be of a development nature and should stay on topic. Devs retain the right to discard moderated emails if they are off topic or inappropriate. Devs found to be abusing this privilege would undergo review by devrel for further action. Devs would be required to be on this list. * Make a new mailing list for the off topic conversations to go to. Not a requirement for devs to join but a place to continue on a topic that really isnt development related. I really don't think anyone on council honestly believes that there are no good alternative ideas out there so the we as the community need to come up with those alternatives. Stopping or postponing technical posts on -dev will always be counter productive. Just create a topic in another list (-politics sounds a good one), forward all further responses there and if necessary create a new post to -dev to carry on the original discussion. The people involved in the -politics discussion can then carry it on somewhere else. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New developer: Pierre-Yves Rofes (p-y)
Steve Long wrote: > Petteri Räty wrote: > >> It's a joint pleasure for me and diox to introduce to you Pierre-Yves >> "py" Rofes. Instead of the snake people he will be joining our security >> team. Py originates from Paris, France, and has just finished his >> studies in computer science. He'll be hired soon (or maybe already was?) >> as a security network engineer for a small consulting company. >> > YAY! aiui there's only 4 or 5 people in the security team, so well done for > getting another sucker^H^H^H volunteer, Tavis. > Can you please stop sending these kind of harmful emails? Thanks, -- Luis F. Araujo "araujo at gentoo.org" Gentoo Linux -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
I'd also like to nominate mcummings (he's an old guy in Gentoo land and his mails look reasonable), lack (he's a bit fresher, but his mails are good) and kumba (old guy, nice mails). XML has been updated. Cheers, -jkt -- cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
RE: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
Could we try to keep this thread, and all the similarly named ones, on topic? The pointing fingers, trash talking, etc is not furthering anything. If you don't like councils opinion, or someone elses opinion, well respect them enough to allow them their own opinion. The real topic at hand is about this mailing list and the proposed changes. If you don't like those proposed changes, please think it through and make alternative suggestions. The original proposed idea: * Make -dev a moderated mailing list, imposing a delay on all emails sent by non-developers and adding devs to that same list as needed. All emails should be of a development nature and should stay on topic. Devs retain the right to discard moderated emails if they are off topic or inappropriate. Devs found to be abusing this privilege would undergo review by devrel for further action. Devs would be required to be on this list. * Make a new mailing list for the off topic conversations to go to. Not a requirement for devs to join but a place to continue on a topic that really isnt development related. I really don't think anyone on council honestly believes that there are no good alternative ideas out there so the we as the community need to come up with those alternatives. Kind regards, Christina Fullam Gentoo Developer Relations Lead | GWN Author -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)
Steve Long wrote: > Chris Gianelloni wrote: > >> :0 >> * ^List-Id:.gentoo-dev.gentoo.org. >> * ^Subject:.*ML changes >> /dev/null >> > Sorry was there some reason the rest of us had to read this? If so, please > explain it like a responsible Council member. Or is this your swansong? If > so it's l4m3. Please stop blatantly trolling. It will not be tolerated on this list. -- dirtyepic salesman said this vacuum's guaranteed gentoo org it could suck an ancient virus from the sea 9B81 6C9F E791 83BB 3AB3 5B2D E625 A073 8379 37E8 (0x837937E8) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: So...
Richard Freeman wrote: > Then again, I guess this post pretty-much obliterates my chance of > getting a patent. Nah, you have a year to file in the US ;) The ROTW might not agree, however. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:02:07 +0100 > Peter Weller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> The moderators should get the final word, end of. > > That would only work if Gentoo could find decent moderator Sorry I know I said "ignore thread" but really: just cos the forum mods banned you it really doesn't make them "indecent" moderators.. It just means you need to change your behaviour. Think about it. > who are > prepared to put lots of effort into work that is, let's face it, > entirely unnecessary and serving no point beyond letting a few people > able to be seen to be 'doing something'. > Yes dear. _yawn_ And now Ignore Thread really _is_ on. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: New developer: Pierre-Yves Rofes (p-y)
Petteri Räty wrote: > It's a joint pleasure for me and diox to introduce to you Pierre-Yves > "py" Rofes. Instead of the snake people he will be joining our security > team. Py originates from Paris, France, and has just finished his > studies in computer science. He'll be hired soon (or maybe already was?) > as a security network engineer for a small consulting company. > YAY! aiui there's only 4 or 5 people in the security team, so well done for getting another sucker^H^H^H volunteer, Tavis. > Please give him the usual flamy welcome. > /me lights the barbecue.. ;) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: About to retire
Denis Dupeyron wrote: > On 7/16/07, Ned Ludd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Well it's clear that nearly everybody is a fucking tard on this list. So >> before I depart. Here is a list of shit that's going to need to be >> maintained or dropped from the tree. Do what you will I could give two >> shits less. > > We don't really know each others. Most of what I know about you is > through plasmaroo, and based on that I have the highest respect for > you. So here's my advice (yeah, I'm even older than Uncle Seemant): > drop those packages, take some time off, grab a fresh beer, whatever, > but don't retire. If you do, the tards win. > ++ (from someone you prob'y consider a tard, but who nonetheless holds you in the highest [technical] regard.) portage-utils rocks, and so does qxpak. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)
Chris Gianelloni wrote: > :0 > * ^List-Id:.gentoo-dev.gentoo.org. > * ^Subject:.*ML changes > /dev/null > Sorry was there some reason the rest of us had to read this? If so, please explain it like a responsible Council member. Or is this your swansong? If so it's l4m3. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes
Donnie Berkholz wrote: >> Just because developers develop because they want to doesn't mean >> they dont want to be part of a community, if that wasn't the case >> then none of the current developers would have originally been part >> of the userbase to begin with. > > What relevance does this have to anything I said? I wasn't addressing > anything about being part of communities; I was addressing the > motivation of volunteers contributing to Gentoo. > Well maybe you should bear in mind that you are talking in front of the whole community. Reply-To Munging? irrelevant ofc. Amateurs.. Sorry amne, but they are.. How many of them are even over 30, as a percentage? /ignore Thread is now on.. honestly guys, grow up. Flames off-list please. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] New developer: Pierre-Yves Rofes (p-y)
Welcome p-y! 2007/7/15, Pierre-Yves Rofes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: @Remi: Yeah, the french conspiracy strikes again :D btw, I hope we'll have an opportunity to meet all the frenchies near Paris around some beers one of these days :) Be sure we will ;) -- Camille Huot -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes
Chris Gianelloni wrote: > On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 23:30 +0100, George Prowse wrote: >> This is going to crash and burn but wouldn't it be an ideal job >> description for the proctors? Instead of telling people off they could >> just stop people posting. That way you dont even get to know that they >> are even there. > > Seeing as how our original ideas for how the proctors would work pretty > much fell exactly in line with this, I would say "yes" to your question. > So why did you shaft them? > Of course, I now tend to agree that having a larger pool of mods for > gentoo-dev is probably better. It allows any developer to participate, > reducing the "good ol' boy" argument, since participation is open to all > developers. > OFC you do! -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
Torsten Veller wrote: > | for the quick low down: > | - nominations are from July 1 through July 31 > | - anyone can nominate > | - only Gentoo devs may be nominated > | > | so get with the nominating people ! I noticed Kumba isn't nominated, so I'll throw him into the ring. -- dirtyepic salesman said this vacuum's guaranteed gentoo org it could suck an ancient virus from the sea 9B81 6C9F E791 83BB 3AB3 5B2D E625 A073 8379 37E8 (0x837937E8) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: ML changes
Chris Gianelloni wrote: > On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 13:34 +0100, Steve Long wrote: >> Are you really claiming that Gentoo could possibly function as an >> organisation without the users? > > Who ever said that? > > Please don't read your own whatever into what is being said. I know I, > for one, don't really care what your opinion is on what Donnie said, and > would rather focus on what he actually said. > Yeah well maybe then you could focus on what I "actually said" meaning the whole of the mail, as opposed to just part of it. And if you don't care what I think, just ignore me fgs.. God knows you're close to my procmail script. What? You troll.. Oh noes! It posts from a gentoo.org address. Excuse me while I swoon (not.) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
RE: [gentoo-dev] council and proctors
Ferris McCormick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Wernfried Haas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> As far the CoC is concerned, i'm not sure what the current status is >> and if anyone is supposed to enforce it atm (devrel? userrel?). > I am sure not devrel. That's one reason we had proctors to begin > with. Council, I guess. While I cant say for sure what fmccor meant by the above comment, I can say that he is speaking for himself, not on behalf of the Developer Relations team. Developer Relations will continue to assist on requests and any extra bit that we can. We will see which way this ML thing takes Gentoo and offer our support in any way we can. Kind regards, Christina Fullam Gentoo Developer Relations Lead | GWN Author -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 14:37 +0200, Michael Krelin wrote: That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the community at large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as our own personal toy (which we currently aren't), then so be it. Of course Gentoo owes to the community a lot. A lot of its progress, progress of the applications included, etc. But it's not a matter of obligation. Being nice to others is a nice thing to do and a way to look better too. The opposite is... well, the opposite. Well said... Remember that if we really didn't give a crap about the community, we wouldn't be writing open source software. If we didn't care about the users, we wouldn't release our software to them. We wouldn't have a bug tracker, forums, and all the other things that we do and maintain solely for the community. I didn't doubt Gentoo attitude towards community. This is why statements like the one above strike me as exceedingly out of place. To phrase it in another manner that might make more sense, any given developer is going to be more interested in fixing/changing what is important or interesting to them than what some group of users wants them to fix/change. This is an attempt to make sense of the statement, which, interpreted this way is absolutely irrelevant to the issue at hand. Love, H -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 06:45 -0500, Andrew Gaffney wrote: That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the community at large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as our own personal toy (which we currently aren't), then so be it. Exactly. I work on Gentoo because I want to work on it. It scratches an itch that I have. I like using it personally and also professionally. I find it easier to help improve Gentoo, thereby making it better for myself, than to simply ask others to fix it for me and hope that they're interested in changing things in the same manner as I am. This is exactly why I became a developer and why I still am a developer. That being said, I know that I, as well as many other Gentoo developers, will gladly accept payment to work on what YOU want me to work on, but until such time as I am in someone else's employ, I'll be working on what I choose to work on myself. If you don't like what a developer is working on or would rather they work on something that interests you, offer to pay them. Unless they're your employee, they owe you nothing. Maybe you should change the Gentoo philosophy: http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/philosophy.xml Us, the Gentoo Proletariat, respect the developers because of the great work they do for free but that doesn't absolve you of any responsibility towards Gentoo, quite the opposite. The Gentoo philosophy and how it states the need for Gentoo to accomodate the needs of it's users establishes a minimum level of responsibility from the Distro to it's userbase so basically stating "I do what I want and how I want" is not in keeping with the way Gentoo was meant to be run and shouldn't be how it is being run at this moment in time. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] council and proctors
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:08:31 +0200 Wernfried Haas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sun, Jul 15, 2007 at 05:11:56PM +0200, Timothy Redaelli wrote: > > I have always thought that proctors/COC is useless, I vote to remove it. > > Proctors have already been removed in the last council meeting. > As far the CoC is concerned, i'm not sure what the current status is > and if anyone is supposed to enforce it atm (devrel? userrel?). I am sure not devrel. That's one reason we had proctors to begin with. Council, I guess. > > cheers, > Wernfried > > -- > Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org > Gentoo Forums - http://forums.gentoo.org > forum-mods (at) gentoo.org > #gentoo-forums (freenode) Wernfried, regards, - -- Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Devrel) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6-ecc01.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGm/1pQa6M3+I///cRAhHkAJ9Ooi4ey+bsAg9cONKbA+PxJryC3ACfZ4xz oYJUpkqvVBy4nF3LcbVKOV8= =mLhy -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
Chris Gianelloni wrote: > On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 13:14 +1000, Will Briggs wrote: >> Oh dear. "slight delay" in an email list forum? That's like saying >> "you can take part in this face-to-face conversation but you have to >> wait 30 seconds before you can say anything" In effect you reduce that >> person to an on-looker who can throw in the occassional comment. The >> comments themselves are reduced in their relevance or impact because by >> the time they are heard, the conversation has moved on. > > On a mailing list? > > We're not talking IRC here. We're talking mailing lists. > > I can take a nap, a full 8 hour sleep, or many times even take the > WEEKEND OFF FROM GENTOO and still manage to come back and give useful > input. Email isn't exactly instant and nobody who runs a mail server > will even pretend that it is. Adding a, say, 3 hour delay between > posting and the timeout, doesn't seem to me like it would affect much of > anything. After all, I managed to not touch my email since Friday and I > am still managing to participate in this conversation. > 1) The smaller the moderation time, the smaller the benefit of having moderation at all. The greater the moderation time, the greater the "penalty" for not being one of the "in crowd." 3 hours is an interesting figure to consider in this light and I would love to see some justification as to why that is the "sweet spot" (if, in fact, a sweet spot exists) 2) I agree - I too sleep between reading gentoo-dev. But the difference is that you are talking about a delay in reading the list (like, for, yeah, sleep). The proposal, however, is a delay between between your awareness of the current state of the conversation (and your writing of a reply), and the actual distribution of your reply. So, for instance: someone asks a (technical) question, no-one has replied, so I reply. $moderation_delay later my answer is distributed, but in the mean time n other people have answered. I (or they depending on whether they were moderated as well) look like an idiot, and the end result is more noise on the list, not less. And you can throw in a whole other bunch of the sorts of thing that can happen in the delay between reading & writing, and the actual distribution of the email --> clarifications, retractions (Don't worry I've solved it emails), solutions, and even warnings from people that the thread is off-topic! This is only compounded when the thread needs a bit of "to and fro" (the "when you said X, did you mean X+Z?" type email). Email being what it is there are always posts that "pass in the night" and double-ups and delays. These, while minimal, are one of email's inherent frustrations. The proposal simply amplifies that frustration. Moderation delay is not the same thing as having a sleep between readings of the list. W. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 23:30 +0100, George Prowse wrote: > This is going to crash and burn but wouldn't it be an ideal job > description for the proctors? Instead of telling people off they could > just stop people posting. That way you dont even get to know that they > are even there. Seeing as how our original ideas for how the proctors would work pretty much fell exactly in line with this, I would say "yes" to your question. Of course, I now tend to agree that having a larger pool of mods for gentoo-dev is probably better. It allows any developer to participate, reducing the "good ol' boy" argument, since participation is open to all developers. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
[gentoo-dev] For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)
:0 * ^List-Id:.gentoo-dev.gentoo.org. * ^Subject:.*ML changes /dev/null -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 13:14 +1000, Will Briggs wrote: Oh dear. "slight delay" in an email list forum? That's like saying "you can take part in this face-to-face conversation but you have to wait 30 seconds before you can say anything" In effect you reduce that person to an on-looker who can throw in the occassional comment. The comments themselves are reduced in their relevance or impact because by the time they are heard, the conversation has moved on. On a mailing list? We're not talking IRC here. We're talking mailing lists. I can take a nap, a full 8 hour sleep, or many times even take the WEEKEND OFF FROM GENTOO and still manage to come back and give useful input. Email isn't exactly instant and nobody who runs a mail server will even pretend that it is. Adding a, say, 3 hour delay between posting and the timeout, doesn't seem to me like it would affect much of anything. After all, I managed to not touch my email since Friday and I am still managing to participate in this conversation. This is going to crash and burn but wouldn't it be an ideal job description for the proctors? Instead of telling people off they could just stop people posting. That way you dont even get to know that they are even there. Seeing as most of them are forum mods there could even be a "why was I blocked?" thread in Feedback... Their decision to forward emails to a -politics (or whatever it was) ML would be a great one -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes
Torsten Veller wrote: * Mike Doty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: We're going to change the -dev mailing list from completely open to where only devs can post, but any dev could moderate a non-dev post. What will you do when users start sending mail from dev addresses? There's nothing to prevent that now. That's part of the reason that devs are "encouraged" to sign their messages to the mailing lists. -- Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes
* Mike Doty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > We're going to change the -dev mailing list from completely open to where only > devs can post, but any dev could moderate a non-dev post. What will you do when users start sending mail from dev addresses? Thanks, Torsten -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 14:37 +0200, Michael Krelin wrote: > > > > That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the > > community at large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as > > our own personal toy (which we currently aren't), then so be it. > > > > Of course Gentoo owes to the community a lot. A lot of its progress, > progress of the applications included, etc. But it's not a matter of > obligation. Being nice to others is a nice thing to do and a way to look > better too. The opposite is... well, the opposite. Well said... Remember that if we really didn't give a crap about the community, we wouldn't be writing open source software. If we didn't care about the users, we wouldn't release our software to them. We wouldn't have a bug tracker, forums, and all the other things that we do and maintain solely for the community. To phrase it in another manner that might make more sense, any given developer is going to be more interested in fixing/changing what is important or interesting to them than what some group of users wants them to fix/change. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes
On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 13:34 +0100, Steve Long wrote: > Are you really claiming that Gentoo could possibly function as an > organisation without the users? Who ever said that? Please don't read your own whatever into what is being said. I know I, for one, don't really care what your opinion is on what Donnie said, and would rather focus on what he actually said. Gentoo developers work on Gentoo because they get something out of it. Period. Some developers do it solely out of the joy they feel by helping users. Some developers do it solely to improve Gentoo for their own use. Both of these developers are just as "selfish" in that they work on Gentoo because of what it bring to them. Remember that we're not paid. This means that everyone here has some motivation, besides money, that keeps us here. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 06:45 -0500, Andrew Gaffney wrote: > That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the community > at > large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as our own personal > toy > (which we currently aren't), then so be it. Exactly. I work on Gentoo because I want to work on it. It scratches an itch that I have. I like using it personally and also professionally. I find it easier to help improve Gentoo, thereby making it better for myself, than to simply ask others to fix it for me and hope that they're interested in changing things in the same manner as I am. This is exactly why I became a developer and why I still am a developer. That being said, I know that I, as well as many other Gentoo developers, will gladly accept payment to work on what YOU want me to work on, but until such time as I am in someone else's employ, I'll be working on what I choose to work on myself. If you don't like what a developer is working on or would rather they work on something that interests you, offer to pay them. Unless they're your employee, they owe you nothing. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 13:14 +1000, Will Briggs wrote: > Oh dear. "slight delay" in an email list forum? That's like saying > "you can take part in this face-to-face conversation but you have to > wait 30 seconds before you can say anything" In effect you reduce that > person to an on-looker who can throw in the occassional comment. The > comments themselves are reduced in their relevance or impact because by > the time they are heard, the conversation has moved on. On a mailing list? We're not talking IRC here. We're talking mailing lists. I can take a nap, a full 8 hour sleep, or many times even take the WEEKEND OFF FROM GENTOO and still manage to come back and give useful input. Email isn't exactly instant and nobody who runs a mail server will even pretend that it is. Adding a, say, 3 hour delay between posting and the timeout, doesn't seem to me like it would affect much of anything. After all, I managed to not touch my email since Friday and I am still managing to participate in this conversation. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
[gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes
Mike Doty wrote: All- We're going to change the -dev mailing list from completely open to where only devs can post, but any dev could moderate a non-dev post. devs who moderate in bad posts will be subject to moderation themselves. in addition the gentoo-project list will be created to take over what -dev frequently becomes. there is no requirement to be on this new list. This will probably remove the need for -core(everything gets leaked out anyway) but that's a path to cross later. We're voting on this next council meeting so if you have input, now would be the time. --taco As a user rather than a dev I waited to respond to this until I saw some of the discussion, since I'm new to Gentoo culture. Most opinion seems to have been extremely negative, along the lines of "This will kill Gentoo because it will alienate the users", together with some very defensive responses from supporters, and a few who don't seem to care at all. I was also originally quite negative about it, but rereading the statement I have come to see some merits in the general idea. Developers (who are required to read the list and for whose continued collaboration and productivity it exists) should have the ability to banish non-developers who abuse their subscriptions to make technical discussions personal. This is only reasonable. However, moderating this list will just place an obstacle in the path of casual user participation and foster a sense of entitlement among the more resentful developers (those would be the ones making claims that Gentoo is not about what devs can do for the users, but merely about everyone serving their own interests). So a better solution would be to adopt the proposal for a developer-moderated blacklist. However, if such powers are expected to be exercised routinely, simply issuing it carte blanche would be ignoring a much larger issue having to do with the quality of the developer community (not to be confused with the larger developer-user community) itself. A good example of a list which follows this sort of policy, and which I also read (skim), is the linux-kernel mailing list, which I consider to be perhaps the optimal open-source developer's list. It has high volume, which people here (and there) sometimes dislike, but that's because they track contributions on the list rather than through Bugzilla, so ignore that aspect. The point is that each and every conversation is on-topic, competent, technical, and very patiently conducted. Even when one developer makes strong (sometimes very strong) remarks it is, as far as I have observed, never met in kind. They bury their egos for the sake of the project, because they are all good at what they do, respected for it, and get enough gratification from their work that they don't need to seek cheap thrills through mailing-list flamewars (indeed, that would detract from their job satisfaction). Stupid, inflammatory, and provocative letters are rarely answered and never develop into flamewars, because no one dignifies them with responses. On very rare occasions I have seen a frivolous conversation (one about some penguin game comes to mind), which reached a surprising saturation before one of the lead developers threatened excommunication to the participants. This is the ONLY time I have ever seen the blacklist powers explicitly exercised, and it completely ended the idiocy. Power exercised with extreme caution will hit twice as hard when it finally comes, because they'll know you mean it. I mention this because it is a pretty high standard, but is in my opinion just about the least you can really expect of a mailing list for a volunteer software development project. If this list degenerates into regular flamewars, it is not the fault of the users; there will always be idiots, but hopefully these people are too self-centered to think of contributing to something like Gentoo. Flamewars are the fault of the developers who participate in them, though no one will like to hear me say this. It's a developer's list and the flamewars wouldn't go anywhere if only a small cabal of lusers stoked them. And from what I've said above, having observed it in the LKML, if developers are doing this it's because they don't respect their work enough, in which case, why do they continue developing? But I've noticed three at least quitting since this discussion started, so maybe they don't. So before you go and moderate the list in any form, think about why at least a few of your number are so immature. Maybe I'm wrong, and they do like their work, but at the very least you should start by making a serious attempt to reform the mailing list culture by pure social pressure before actually implementing a moderation scheme. After all, it's true that users are granted access to this list as a privilege: the privilege of putting in their two cents and thereby contributing to a project that takes itself as seriously as the users apparently take it. The only
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 19:49:23 +0200, "Jakub Moc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > __ __ _ > |__ / _ \| \/ |/ ___| | > / / | | | |\/| | | _| | > / /| |_| | | | | |_| |_| > /\___/|_| |_|\(_) > > Anyone tell me how can I get rid of this junk in my mailbox? Where's the > damned -announce list? Please, stop feeding this kind of debates down > everyone's throat. Hmm. /me doesn't know any MUA's with a "kill thread" option off the top of his head (especially one that would remember the Message-ID's so it could kill new messages from the same thread) but in mutt you could hit ^D to delete the entire thread, IIRC. --Thomas Tuttle -- Thomas Tuttle - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.ttuttle.net/ -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] So...
Wernfried Haas wrote: On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:41:42PM +, Luis Medinas wrote: On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 15:06 -0400, Doug Goldstein wrote: So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves to debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit vs Celcius... Discuss! Well Celcius isn't the S.I scale for temperature but it's related with Kelvin which is the S.I scale for temperature. The conversion formula to Fahrenheit is °F = (°C × 1.8) + 32 and to kelvin is just K = °C + 273.15. These days i use more Kelvin than Celcius because it's used on real life problems i have to solve. Rankine [1] brings you the best of two worlds: Starting at scientific 0 degrees, but using the convenient degree scale defined by some obscure water-salt-mixture and a the slight fever of the average gentoo-dev poster. :-) cheers, Wernfried [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankine tbh, you really need a different one for developers that takes into account how far above or below sea level you are because as the air gets thinner the mass of the water that is used to regulate their temperature would change in relation to the caffiene molecules -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] So...
On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:41:42PM +, Luis Medinas wrote: > On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 15:06 -0400, Doug Goldstein wrote: > > So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves to > > debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit vs > > Celcius... > > > > Discuss! > > > Well Celcius isn't the S.I scale for temperature but it's related with > Kelvin which is the S.I scale for temperature. The conversion formula to > Fahrenheit is °F = (°C × 1.8) + 32 and to kelvin is just K = °C + > 273.15. These days i use more Kelvin than Celcius because it's used on > real life problems i have to solve. Rankine [1] brings you the best of two worlds: Starting at scientific 0 degrees, but using the convenient degree scale defined by some obscure water-salt-mixture and a the slight fever of the average gentoo-dev poster. :-) cheers, Wernfried [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankine -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org Gentoo Forums - http://forums.gentoo.org forum-mods (at) gentoo.org #gentoo-forums (freenode) pgpTPvJrzskkM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] So...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dale wrote: >> On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:06:37 -0400 >> Doug Goldstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >>> So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves >>> to debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit >>> vs Celcius... >>> >> > > Well, let's throw in the effect of humidity too. > Well, as one of the nicer off-topic threads on this list, might I mention that I always wanted to patent a thermostat that regulates heat index (or comfort index - a combination of temp and humidity) instead of temperature. And not just a humidistat - I don't want to dump water into the air if it is dry - I just want to turn down the AC when it is dry... Then again, I guess this post pretty-much obliterates my chance of getting a patent. Then again, maybe somebody already has one but isn't bothering to manufacture them - that would explain why I can't find one for sale anywhere. Instead I just have to set my temperature lower at night to compensate for increased humidity - which is really just a lousy hack. Where is the Honeywell bugzilla when you need it... :) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGm9IxG4/rWKZmVWkRAmXiAJ9dSlKqiNnT+oe/CTlkpQfg8c4QBwCeJww5 OowzzLLzZXJ4q686Nu2JDns= =u+Mh -END PGP SIGNATURE- smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:02:07 +0100 Peter Weller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The moderators should get the final word, end of. That would only work if Gentoo could find decent moderators who are prepared to put lots of effort into work that is, let's face it, entirely unnecessary and serving no point beyond letting a few people able to be seen to be 'doing something'. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:24:32 -0700 Mike Doty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > All- > [..snip..] > > We're voting on this next council meeting so if you have input, now > would be the time. > > --taco Eeer, I think this is one of the most idiotic ideas I've heard since I started using Gentoo. As I've seen before in various projects, a blacklist is *much* easier to maintain than a whitelist, it makes *much* more sense to get a team of people (not necessarily developers?) to moderate the Mailing Lists, to a standard, complete, set of rules - was the CoC complete when the Proctors started? Could this be why the idea didn't work originally? A Mailing List should be treated like the forums and IRC, those who misbehave get a warning. Then if they continue, a ban. They had their chance, they fucked up, sod them. And now there's people polluting the Mailing List with the freakin' weather in what seems to be some form of a protest to the ML changes. This is stupid. Don't make the changes. Make a complete set of rules for moderation, appoint a suitable team of developers (and users?) to moderate the mailing list, make sure that they've had experience in moderation. Pick moderators from various timezones to ensure a timely stop to any potential flamewars. Teach the people using the mailing list that there is NO excuse for misbehaviour. A ban is a ban, you can't get around it. No bribing high-up council members or devrel members to get you unbanned. This will bring about a fall in the system. The moderators should get the final word, end of. Keep discussions *technical*, attempt not to bring personal differences into the public. Take it off-list, just as you would PM someone on the forums or IRC. It's the same thing. Anyway, those are just my 2 cents. welp signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] So...
> On Monday 16 July 2007 19:27, Vlastimil Babka wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Doug Goldstein wrote: > > So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves to > > debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit vs > > Celcius... > > > > Discuss! > > I don't care, as long as the temperature is somewhere in the middle of > linear scale between freezing water and average healthy human body > temperature. And not higher than the latter, as nowadays! > - -- > Vlastimil Babka (Caster) > Gentoo/Java > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFGm8antbrAj05h3oQRAsB2AJ4tmemfppz36p5wUnFS7uTvXwObdQCglSsG > C93JXdRGdMDLwteYd9p3ZeI= > =ElDz > -END PGP SIGNATURE- For all those damned SUVs out there ... -- Catalin Z. Alexandru, Executive Editor; E-Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mobile : 0726.683.373; Web : http://www.theg33ks.com/ -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] So...
On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 15:06 -0400, Doug Goldstein wrote: > So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves to > debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit vs > Celcius... > > Discuss! > Well Celcius isn't the S.I scale for temperature but it's related with Kelvin which is the S.I scale for temperature. The conversion formula to Fahrenheit is °F = (°C × 1.8) + 32 and to kelvin is just K = °C + 273.15. These days i use more Kelvin than Celcius because it's used on real life problems i have to solve. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] So...
Roy Marples wrote: > On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:06:37 -0400 > Doug Goldstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves >> to debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit >> vs Celcius... >> >> Discuss! >> > > Sorry, but on topic posts are not allowed here. > Well, let's throw in the effect of humidity too. I can't believe I am posting this. I guess since we will not be allowed to or not allowed to in a timely matter in the near future, I better make good of it. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] So...
> On Monday 16 July 2007 19:12, Roy Marples wrote: > On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:06:37 -0400 > > Doug Goldstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves > > to debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit > > vs Celcius... > > > > Discuss! > > Sorry, but on topic posts are not allowed here. It's been 42 degrees Celsius in Bucharest Romania. Like Jamie [Mythbusters] used to say: "You'd fry ... you'd boil.". Well ... I'm dying ... -- Catalin Z. Alexandru, Executive Editor; E-Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mobile : 0726.683.373; Web : http://www.theg33ks.com/ -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: So...
Doug Goldstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves > to debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit > vs Celcius... Did you know that a black body of that temperature would have a heat flux density of 518,65 W/m^2? Or for you imperal unit lovers: 1,008426495 hp/sqyd V-Li -- http://www.gentoo.org/ http://www.faulhammer.org/ http://www.gnupg.org/ signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] So...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Doug Goldstein wrote: > So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves to > debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit vs > Celcius... > > Discuss! I don't care, as long as the temperature is somewhere in the middle of linear scale between freezing water and average healthy human body temperature. And not higher than the latter, as nowadays! - -- Vlastimil Babka (Caster) Gentoo/Java -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGm8antbrAj05h3oQRAsB2AJ4tmemfppz36p5wUnFS7uTvXwObdQCglSsG C93JXdRGdMDLwteYd9p3ZeI= =ElDz -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] So...
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:06:37 -0400 Doug Goldstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves > to debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit > vs Celcius... > > Discuss! Sorry, but on topic posts are not allowed here. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] So...
So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves to debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit vs Celcius... Discuss! -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 19:16:45 +0100 George Prowse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Donnie Berkholz wrote: > > Matthias Langer wrote: > > > >> no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read > >> on this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that > >> it is becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own > >> developers. > > > > Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's > > paying us to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to > > do also benefit other people, and so they use them. > > > > > That is possibly the most pathetic, misjudged and harmful (to Gentoo) > post I have ever read. You should be ashamed. Well, I'm not. I have no idea what you read, but it doesn't appear to be what I wrote. > Just because developers develop because they want to doesn't mean > they dont want to be part of a community, if that wasn't the case > then none of the current developers would have originally been part > of the userbase to begin with. What relevance does this have to anything I said? I wasn't addressing anything about being part of communities; I was addressing the motivation of volunteers contributing to Gentoo. Thanks, Donnie signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] About to retire
В Пнд, 16/07/2007 в 10:50 -0700, Ned Ludd пишет: > net-firewall/ebtables > net-misc/netkit-telnetd taken. base-system, are there any objections if I add you as the herd? related applications like iptables and other netkit-* apps belongs to your herd... > net-firewall/arptables and if I manage to fix bug 162886, I'll take this too. -- Peter. signature.asc Description: Эта часть сообщения подписана цифровой подписью
Re: [gentoo-dev] About to retire
On 7/16/07, Ned Ludd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well it's clear that nearly everybody is a fucking tard on this list. So before I depart. Here is a list of shit that's going to need to be maintained or dropped from the tree. Do what you will I could give two shits less. We don't really know each others. Most of what I know about you is through plasmaroo, and based on that I have the highest respect for you. So here's my advice (yeah, I'm even older than Uncle Seemant): drop those packages, take some time off, grab a fresh beer, whatever, but don't retire. If you do, the tards win. Denis. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
Donnie Berkholz wrote: Matthias Langer wrote: no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read on this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that it is becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own developers. Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also benefit other people, and so they use them. That is possibly the most pathetic, misjudged and harmful (to Gentoo) post I have ever read. You should be ashamed. Just because developers develop because they want to doesn't mean they dont want to be part of a community, if that wasn't the case then none of the current developers would have originally been part of the userbase to begin with. Gentoo is becoming a joke, how many more developers have to leave? How many more harmful articles will it take? Users have left in droves and you seem to be becoming more and more insular the worse it gets. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] About to retire
Well it's clear that nearly everybody is a fucking tard on this list. So before I depart. Here is a list of shit that's going to need to be maintained or dropped from the tree. Do what you will I could give two shits less. dev-embedded/gpio dev-util/elfkickers net-firewall/arptables net-firewall/ebtables net-misc/netkit-telnetd net-misc/vconfig net-proxy/middleman (dead upstream) net-wireless/chillispot sys-devel/sparse -- Ned Ludd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gentoo Linux -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes
__ __ _ |__ / _ \| \/ |/ ___| | / / | | | |\/| | | _| | / /| |_| | | | | |_| |_| /\___/|_| |_|\(_) Anyone tell me how can I get rid of this junk in my mailbox? Where's the damned -announce list? Please, stop feeding this kind of debates down everyone's throat. :X -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:34:31 +0100 Steve Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > It also happens that bugs are reported, and patches provided, by > users. Not to mention documentation written, support provided on irc > and in forums, which are the envy of every OS out there. Oh and the > small matter of defending Gentoo against detractors, the most telling > of which are those who criticise elitist ``devs''. > > Are you really claiming that Gentoo could possibly function as an > organisation without the users? And why do they contribute patches etc? Because it bugs them that something is broken. Or maybe because it gives them pleasure to help others. They're doing it for themselves too. In an open-source, volunteer world, everyone contributes because it _in some way_ benefits them to do so. Thanks, Donnie signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 08:42:44 -0400 Michael Cummings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Talk like this, especially from people I respected, makes me question > just what its worth to keep going. If Gentoo is only about the devs, > well, I'm happy with the way things are now, they work for me, so no > sense in working any further on perl-land. You're still doing the work because you want to do it. The benefit to you is that it fulfills you somehow, which means you're doing it for yourself. You're interpreting things more narrowly. Thanks, Donnie signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes
Hello Steve! On Monday, 16. July 2007 18:17:00 Steve Long wrote: > Sure, but since you're only doing exactly what you want, when you want, > why do you guys keep bleating about how much work you have, and what > extravagant demands us lusers make on you? Now, now. You're a nice guy on IRC so what is this nonsense about? :-) Yes, every single Gentoo dev is here for a reason. Some because they want to improve the stuff they use themselves, some want to be able to help users better (yes, such people exist! ;-) ) and some, like myself, simply have fun working on stuff they use *and* helping people by doing that. (And then there are some idealistic motives but let's keep those aside for now.) > And please don't tell me you're not proud of being a Gentoo dev, Yes, I admit it, I am because this is the finest Linux distribution I could find and because there are a lot of nice people around. Yes, some Gentoo devs behave like morons some of the time, like myself again ;), but then, it's the same among the user base so I don't think this is something special between devs. This thread is now a dumpster for every complaint any given dev or user may have and overly complicated ideas are exchanged to solve problems which I simply don't see we're having. Yes, there's a lot of traffic here which will soon drop back to normal once people realised they have beaten this horse to death quite a few postings ago. Personally, I originally favoured the idea of making -dev r/o for anyone but Gentoo devs and have the latter moderate-in anyone else. Obviously, though, this meets with strong resistance by some users and devs so let's simply make this ominous -project mailinglist and see if/how it works. I don't think either solutions makes much sense because it complicates matters unnecessarily but if people really lack a minimum of discipline *and* can't ignore the few loudmouths then so be it. > and it doesn't help you personally in your careers. It doesn't help *me* in my career at all. :-) I'm not in this for money, personal gains or accelerating my career anyway, though. I'm in this for fun, for the people (be they devs or users, I don't really care) and in the hope that I might make the world at least a wee, tiny bit better by what I do and how I try to do it. > You're a bunch of selfish malcontents according to your definition. No, you're exaggerating. :-) Yes, the way some fellow devs stated it, was rather blunt but I'm sure they didn't mean it that way. Best regards, Wulf signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:54:44 -0400, "Daniel Drake" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > I do like the "gentoo-politics" idea that came up a few weeks ago, which > was to move politics off gentoo-dev and to another list, but I'd view it > from another perspective (and avoid the words 'politics'): make > gentoo-dev for development topics only, and have another list for the > rest. But, I suspect we'd come back to the same problem on both lists, > where some people are too keen to talk and deviate too far away from > technical discussion. On IRC, when a conversation wanders offtopic, one of the ops just nudges the participants and says "hey, you should move your conversation to #gentoo-foo" (or "##foo" or whatever). Wouldn't it be easy enough for someone to do that here? It'd be pretty easy to specify what's on- and off-topic for each list, and it would be friendlier than moderation, just like it's friendlier for IRC ops to ask you nicely to switch channels than to simply kick you out. --Thomas Tuttle -- Thomas Tuttle - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.ttuttle.net/ -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: council and proctors
Steve Long kirjoitti: > Wernfried Haas wrote: > >> On Sun, Jul 15, 2007 at 05:11:56PM +0200, Timothy Redaelli wrote: >>> I have always thought that proctors/COC is useless, I vote to remove it. >> Proctors have already been removed in the last council meeting. >> As far the CoC is concerned, i'm not sure what the current status is >> and if anyone is supposed to enforce it atm (devrel? userrel?). >> > Is it just me, or has the current Council grown bored of posting links to > the logs to this list? There seem to be an awful lot of unannounced, > unlogged meetings, and one is at a loss to know whether these have been > full meetings or the "two of us got together and decided" sort of affair. > > Code and conduct: the only things that really count. > > Logs yes but the monthly meetings have been at the same time in the same place. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
[gentoo-dev] Re: council and proctors
Wernfried Haas wrote: > On Sun, Jul 15, 2007 at 05:11:56PM +0200, Timothy Redaelli wrote: >> I have always thought that proctors/COC is useless, I vote to remove it. > > Proctors have already been removed in the last council meeting. > As far the CoC is concerned, i'm not sure what the current status is > and if anyone is supposed to enforce it atm (devrel? userrel?). > Is it just me, or has the current Council grown bored of posting links to the logs to this list? There seem to be an awful lot of unannounced, unlogged meetings, and one is at a loss to know whether these have been full meetings or the "two of us got together and decided" sort of affair. Code and conduct: the only things that really count. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes
Andrew Gaffney wrote: > You misunderstand. I'm not saying that all non-devs can get bent and their > opinions be damned. I'm just saying that at the core, Gentoo is still the > same as it was "back in the day". Gentoo isn't a commercial distribution, > and nobody pays us, so we can do anything we want, whether the user > community at large likes it or not. We ultimately answer only to > ourselves. > Sure, but since you're only doing exactly what you want, when you want, why do you guys keep bleating about how much work you have, and what extravagant demands us lusers make on you? And please don't tell me you're not proud of being a Gentoo dev, and it doesn't help you personally in your careers. You're a bunch of selfish malcontents according to your definition. Some coders know that without users their code is worthless. NFC why anyone would want to be a ``dev'' like you outline. If you don't like it, ignore it. BTW I sincerely hope that isn't _all_ that motivates you, Mr Gaffney. Doing "anything [you] want, whether the user community at large likes it or not," is a recipe for disaster for _any_ software project. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] council and proctors
On Sun, Jul 15, 2007 at 05:11:56PM +0200, Timothy Redaelli wrote: > I have always thought that proctors/COC is useless, I vote to remove it. Proctors have already been removed in the last council meeting. As far the CoC is concerned, i'm not sure what the current status is and if anyone is supposed to enforce it atm (devrel? userrel?). cheers, Wernfried -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org Gentoo Forums - http://forums.gentoo.org forum-mods (at) gentoo.org #gentoo-forums (freenode) pgps7Ewljdh12.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Andrew Gaffney wrote: > > Yep, this is all anyone is trying to say. We aren't paid, so we work on > what we feel like working on, and do what we feel like doing (within > reason). > This is the great difficulty with any open-source project, and yet most work fairly well (including Gentoo despite all the talk in the last few months). Nobody is paying the devs to be devs. Nobody is paying the ATs to be ATs, nobody is paying the formum mods to keep things clean. Nobody is paying the users to submit bugs, or to humor the flamewars that often follow in bugzilla. Why are the users here? Gentoo meets a need. Why are the devs here? Gentoo meets a need. While they might have different roles, ultimately we all benefit from working well together. What the project needs to do is to create an environment where each can succeed without burning out. This requires effort on all parts, and the occasional application of moderation between the brain/keyboard interface (regardless of one's stance on ML moderation I think we can all agree on this point). I think that this particular debate is coming across fairly divisively, and has the potential to be very damaging. I think we need to choose our words carefully. Ultimately we're all here to scratch an itch of some kind. To the extent that devs work on projects that might not benefit themselves personally we need to recognize and appreciate their charity. For their part devs have to realize that users often do recognize this and often do try to go out of their way to humor some devs abrasive retorts in bugzilla/etc (and this does not in ANY way apply to all, or even most, devs). There are both devs and users which give the larger population a bad reputation, even though their individual contributions might warrant their continued participation in Gentoo - and we all need to recognize this. The fact is we all get further ahead in life when we learn to work together. Some here might not be in the working world yet - trust me - corporate IT is a whole different beast whether you're working for a start-up or an enterprise - say something rash to a customer or partner and you might never work in the industry again (and that goes both ways in the vendor/customer relationship). For those already in the "real world" - it is nice to have a project where one can pick and choose what one works on without having to "keep one's guard up" - but all interactions in life require some level of care if we ant to work together. Ultimately fostering some level of professionalism has to be a goal of the project. It doesn't have to be so dry that there isn't any fun - but raging flamewars will cause the project to bleed contributors, future-contributors, and sponsors (those nice infrastructure servers require power, bandwidth, hardware, and people to run them). And we don't need the bureaucracy associated with most large IT organizations to accomplish this - just being polite goes a long way. When somebody treats you as if you're their personal slave do feel free to point it out, but do so nicely and they'll probably get the point and bug you a whole lot less in the future than if they just get a snappy retort. And extreme problem cases can always be dealt with using technical means (bans/etc). -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGm4gDG4/rWKZmVWkRAp4qAKCqyok4HGwrEvcqmRulz3HydsgcTwCcCSPp Gct+FtaHsTdbsyEDfuXAkcI= =siL8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
Marius Mauch wrote: I think you're misinterpreting those statements. Consider if you have choose if you spend your time implementing a feature that you personally want to have or one that a user wants (and is of no use to yourself), which one would you choose, assuming that both have the same cost? It's all about priority, nothing more, nothing less. Yep, this is all anyone is trying to say. We aren't paid, so we work on what we feel like working on, and do what we feel like doing (within reason). -- Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
Vlastimil Babka wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Andrew Gaffney wrote: Donnie Berkholz wrote: Matthias Langer wrote: no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read on this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that it is becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own developers. Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also benefit other people, and so they use them. That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the community at large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as our own personal toy (which we currently aren't), then so be it. Are you people serious? Let's ban nondevs from bugzilla then? Close #gentoo, disband PR, etc? Not sure if we can keep any sponsors then... You misunderstand. I'm not saying that all non-devs can get bent and their opinions be damned. I'm just saying that at the core, Gentoo is still the same as it was "back in the day". Gentoo isn't a commercial distribution, and nobody pays us, so we can do anything we want, whether the user community at large likes it or not. We ultimately answer only to ourselves. -- Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes
Steve Long wrote: > Donnie Berkholz wrote: > > >> Matthias Langer wrote: >> >>> no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read on >>> this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that it is >>> becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own developers. >>> >> Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us >> to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also >> benefit other people, and so they use them. >> >> > It also happens that bugs are reported, and patches provided, by users. Not > to mention documentation written, support provided on irc and in forums, > which are the envy of every OS out there. Oh and the small matter of > defending Gentoo against detractors, the most telling of which are those > who criticise elitist ``devs''. > > Are you really claiming that Gentoo could possibly function as an > organisation without the users? > No, Gentoo *the organisation/community* wouldn't be where it is today without its users, that is for sure. However, Gentoo devs - as individuals - don't owe to community anything. Quite the contrary, if I may say so myself. That being said, all devs are working on our beloved distro having the common interest in mind, just it gets harder and harder to keep your morale/motivation high while you are exposed to rants and flame wars like this. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 08:42:44 -0400 Michael Cummings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Vlastimil Babka wrote: > > Are you people serious? Let's ban nondevs from bugzilla then? Close > > #gentoo, disband PR, etc? Not sure if we can keep any sponsors > > then... > > ...or devs... > > Seriously, no users == no community. Why? Because devs don't get along > with each other well enough to qualify as a community. It's really the > untold masses that make Gentoo a community. What's one of the top > resources cited as the greatness of Gentoo? The wiki. Which isn't even > official or sanctioned, but that is instead run largely by the > community at large. > > Bah. This entire debate is extremely disheartening. How many devs out > there sprung from the ground pre-formed, and how many started out as > users in the community? *That* is the pool from which we draw our > ranks, from which we get our support and direction. This elitist > attitude is what drives the rationale devs to be hermits and just > answer to their small piece of the pie - because we don't give two > figs about who's ego is mightiest, just that we are producing > something useful that makes us happy, without breaking things for > those dependent on us, the users. > > Talk like this, especially from people I respected, makes me question > just what its worth to keep going. If Gentoo is only about the devs, > well, I'm happy with the way things are now, they work for me, so no > sense in working any further on perl-land. I think you're misinterpreting those statements. Consider if you have choose if you spend your time implementing a feature that you personally want to have or one that a user wants (and is of no use to yourself), which one would you choose, assuming that both have the same cost? It's all about priority, nothing more, nothing less. Marius -- Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
On Mon, Jul 02, 2007 at 08:43:36PM +0100, Peter Weller wrote: > I nominate... > > tomk Thanks for the nomination but I'll have to decline as I haven't got enough free time at the moment to be on the council. Tom -- Tom Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG Public Key: http://dev.gentoo.org/~tomk/tomk.asc pgp7LPcc0OkF7.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Vlastimil Babka wrote: > Are you people serious? Let's ban nondevs from bugzilla then? Close > #gentoo, disband PR, etc? Not sure if we can keep any sponsors then... ...or devs... Seriously, no users == no community. Why? Because devs don't get along with each other well enough to qualify as a community. It's really the untold masses that make Gentoo a community. What's one of the top resources cited as the greatness of Gentoo? The wiki. Which isn't even official or sanctioned, but that is instead run largely by the community at large. Bah. This entire debate is extremely disheartening. How many devs out there sprung from the ground pre-formed, and how many started out as users in the community? *That* is the pool from which we draw our ranks, from which we get our support and direction. This elitist attitude is what drives the rationale devs to be hermits and just answer to their small piece of the pie - because we don't give two figs about who's ego is mightiest, just that we are producing something useful that makes us happy, without breaking things for those dependent on us, the users. Talk like this, especially from people I respected, makes me question just what its worth to keep going. If Gentoo is only about the devs, well, I'm happy with the way things are now, they work for me, so no sense in working any further on perl-land. Bah. - -- - -o()o-- Michael Cummings |#gentoo-dev, #gentoo-perl Gentoo Perl Dev|on irc.freenode.net Gentoo/SPARC Gentoo/AMD64 GPG: 0543 6FA3 5F82 3A76 3BF7 8323 AB5C ED4E 9E7F 4E2E - -o()o-- Hi, I'm a .signature virus! Please copy me in your ~/.signature. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGm2fEq1ztTp5/Ti4RAlQ+AJwKsEC1IQImUbUmq/7zNBsXxGv73ACeK6hV or9txg0OFsHguSq3kCm1Kfk= =TiyV -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the community at large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as our own personal toy (which we currently aren't), then so be it. Of course Gentoo owes to the community a lot. A lot of its progress, progress of the applications included, etc. But it's not a matter of obligation. Being nice to others is a nice thing to do and a way to look better too. The opposite is... well, the opposite. Love, H -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes
Donnie Berkholz wrote: > Matthias Langer wrote: >> no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read on >> this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that it is >> becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own developers. > > Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us > to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also > benefit other people, and so they use them. > It also happens that bugs are reported, and patches provided, by users. Not to mention documentation written, support provided on irc and in forums, which are the envy of every OS out there. Oh and the small matter of defending Gentoo against detractors, the most telling of which are those who criticise elitist ``devs''. Are you really claiming that Gentoo could possibly function as an organisation without the users? steveL -- sick of this attitude (and waiting for the "oh but we're users too"; so be moderated like us then.) Here's an idea: close the dev m-l and have a dev forum instead. If you cannot maintain the level of civility we have to, how can you possibly claim to represent Gentoo to the level expected? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Andrew Gaffney wrote: > Donnie Berkholz wrote: >> Matthias Langer wrote: >>> no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read on >>> this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that it is >>> becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own developers. >> >> Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us >> to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also >> benefit other people, and so they use them. > > That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the > community at large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as > our own personal toy (which we currently aren't), then so be it. Are you people serious? Let's ban nondevs from bugzilla then? Close #gentoo, disband PR, etc? Not sure if we can keep any sponsors then... - -- Vlastimil Babka (Caster) Gentoo/Java -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGm2AFtbrAj05h3oQRAnqlAJ4yiS73x/jAdaWJMv+Fh6fG33vaSACfdWJX GUCkyeDMTw0paODJ2bD86GU= =f7s+ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
Donnie Berkholz wrote: Matthias Langer wrote: no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read on this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that it is becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own developers. Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also benefit other people, and so they use them. That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the community at large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as our own personal toy (which we currently aren't), then so be it. -- Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: iuse defaults example
Mike Frysinger wrote: > there are ways to make the USE=nocxx -> USE=cxx transition nice and i plan > on going that route > What would those/that be? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes
Kumba <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Sun, 15 Jul 2007 19:13:31 -0400: > @Council > As for the rest of thisthread..., mayhaps it would be wise for > Council and Infra to postpone the moderation idea for a few months? (let > 2007-2008 council handle the matter) As this really isn't the kind of > thing we should be pulling during a council/trustee switch out (just > look at the size of the thread). > > @Infra > In what may be appropriately considered a vain attempt to end this > thread, can we just go ahead and create -project, and give it a few > weeks to see what happens? Worry about -dev and moderation later on. ++ on both. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
