[gentoo-dev] gentoo-dev+subscribe-nom...@lists.gentoo.org

[Jakub Moc]

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Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 10:16:08 -
From: Rus F Adrian 
To: ubuntu-b...@lists.ubuntu.com
X-Launchpad-Bug: product=empathy; status=Unknown; importance=Unknown;
assignee=None; 
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status=Triaged; importance=Medium; assignee=None; 
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References: <20100305214910.13695.4182.malone...@potassium.ubuntu.com>
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Subject: [Bug 532947] Re: empathy crash when show Information with a URL
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apport information

** Tags added: apport-collected

** Description changed:

  Binary package hint: empathy
  
  1)
  lsb_release -rd
  Description:  Ubuntu lucid (development branch)
  Release:  10.04
  2)
  apt-cache policy empathy
  empathy:
Installed: 2.29.91.2-0ubuntu1
Candidate: 2.29.91.2-0ubuntu1
Version table:
   *** 2.29.91.2-0ubuntu1 0
  500 http://archive.ubuntu.com lucid/main Packages
  100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
  3) Expected to show Information (status) of a username with a URL
  4) Instead frooze and ask Metacity to Force Quit only if is an URL in that 
status else works.
+ --- 
+ Architecture: i386
+ DistroRelease: Ubuntu 10.04
+ InstallationMedia: Ubuntu 10.04 "Lucid Lynx" - Alpha i386 (20100305)
+ Package: empathy 2.29.91.2-0ubuntu1
+ PackageArchitecture: i386
+ ProcEnviron:
+  LANG=en_US.utf8
+  SHELL=/bin/bash
+ ProcVersionSignature: Ubuntu 2.6.32-15.22-generic
+ Tags: lucid
+ Uname: Linux 2.6.32-15-generic i686
+ UserGroups: adm admin cdrom dialout lpadmin plugdev sambashare

** Attachment added: "Dependencies.txt"
   http://launchpadlibrarian.net/40405563/Dependencies.txt

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empathy crash when show Information with a URL
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/532947
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is subscribed to Ubuntu.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: New build types

[Jakub Moc]

Steve Long napsal(a):

How do others feel about such an addition?



http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_a450013b143e01a25810f66ff345c9d4.xml

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Jakub Moc]

Fabio Erculiani napsal(a):

I'll try to file a huge bug on all the broken RDEPENDs
I'll found. I'll try to find a free slot during the end of the next
week for the hunting.


No, please don't. One bug per category is acceptable, no way I'm going 
to CC 150 maintainers on such monster bug and watch the resulting huge 
bugspam landing in bug-wranglers and other people's mailboxes, it's 
extremely annoying, extremely messy and generally not a good way to 
things fixed.



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Re: [gentoo-dev] The future of ebuild

[Jakub Moc]

Santiago M. Mola napsal(a):

This is not going to happen. "Migrating to Nix" means "rewriting the
distro from scratch".  If you´re interested in a distro built on top
of Nix, you can try NixOS (which looks really nice IMO).

Regards,
Santiago


While we are switching the whole tree to Nix, I'd strongly advocate that:

1/ All ebuilds must be rewritten in whitespace [1]; that will have the 
great side-effect that all those pesky whitespace repoman checks will 
start to be meaningful finally.


2/ All eclasses must be rewritten in Piet [2] at the same time, so that 
we make dev's life a bit more colorful once the former step. is 
finished. There is already a platform-independent IDE ready for this 
purpose after all [3].


Since the benefits of the above are so obvious, I suppose this doesn't 
even require a GLEP and the porting work should therefore start 
immediately to make it in time for 2008.0.


Have a nice day. :P

[1] http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet_(programming_language)
[3] http://www.rapapaing.com/piet/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] have any developers subscribed to -project?

[Jakub Moc]

Dale napsal(a):
> George Prowse wrote:
>> Ned Ludd wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2007-07-20 at 20:58 +0100, George Prowse wrote:
>>>  
>>>> Do any devs subscribe to -project because no replies have yet to be
>>>> heard from developers...
>>>> 
>>> Please stop flooding my inbox.
>>>   
>> It is an honest developer question because it was meant to have
>> discussions between developers there and if no developers subscribe
>> then what is the point of having it? You might as well just close it now
>>
> 
> I agree.  They complain about us coming here for their input but they
> won't come to where we are so we can get theirs. 

 _   _   _   _ _
| | | |/ ___| | | | |
| | | | |  _| |_| | |
| |_| | |_| |  _  |_|
 \___/ \|_| |_(_)



Stop flooding my mailbox as well with this irrelevant junk finally, it's
totally off-topic here; if you want to complain that noone loves you,
then go to your nanny, I'm not interested.


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 Jakub Moc
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Re: [gentoo-dev] net-im/pidgin protocols

[Jakub Moc]

Petteri Räty napsal(a):
> Or just do it via package.use in profiles until IUSE defaults are
> implemented.
> 
> Regards,
> Petteri

As noted before, they are implemented, just not allowed in the tree.
Plus, what vapier said, this info belongs to the ebuilds, not to profiles.

Wrt pidgin - seriously, what's the big issue here? Users can't use
emerge -pv output and determine what they want, or? Will we bloat the
profiles everytime someone forgets to enable a flag and goes complain
upstream about a 'missing' feature?


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 Jakub Moc
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Re: [gentoo-dev] alternative solution for 'procmail-impaired' folks

[Jakub Moc]

Vlastimil Babka napsal(a):
> Steve Long wrote:
>> And no, I don't like being lumped in with Mr McCreesh.
> 
> Why would anyone do that? His trolling is sophisticated, but you're just
> an annoying spammer.

Can we please stop this direction? My ZOMG was there to share my
frustration from getting my mailbox flooded by stuff I'm totally not
interested in and which has nothing to do with gentoo *development*.

For less sucky ways of expressing similar feelings as mine, please refer
to http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_131667.xml - sadly, the
picture is gone now :(

To bring this debate back on track - the current council proposal
*fails* to address the real problem: people should not be required to be
subscribed to gentoo-dev (moderated or non-moderated) and important
announcements should be directed to a different (IMO read-only) list.

Why don't we use current gentoo-announce list for seems to exist for
this exact purpose? In that way, people who wish to participate in
on-topic, off-topic or straight retarded debates would still have the
choice to do so, while not forcing the majority of others to 'mark
folder as read' every 6 hours.

TIA.

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 Jakub Moc
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

[Jakub Moc]

   __  __   _
|__  / _ \|  \/  |/ ___| |
  / / | | | |\/| | |  _| |
 / /| |_| | |  | | |_| |_|
/\___/|_|  |_|\(_)

Anyone tell me how can I get rid of this junk in my mailbox? Where's the
damned -announce list? Please, stop feeding this kind of debates down
everyone's throat.

:X


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 Jakub Moc
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] qmail.eclass draft

[Jakub Moc]

Michael Hanselmann napsal(a):
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 01:37:11PM +0200, Benedikt Boehm wrote:
>> due to massive code duplication in netqmail, qmail-ldap, qmail-mysql,
>> mini-qmail and other 3-rd party applications for qmail i have started
>> to move functionality into a first qmail.eclass draft.

> And as the netqmail ebuild maintainer, I want the ebuild to be as simple
> as possible, that is, no external dependencies where possible.

I wouldn't exactly call the current netqmail ebuild 'simple', on a quick
look. Hmmm... :)

>> Attached is the eclass and a sample how to use it with netqmail.
> 
> It seems like you aren't interested in communication with the
> maintainer, otherwise you would've CC'ed me.

Erm? This was completely uncalled for, I'd say?!


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[gentoo-dev] net-mail/cyrus-imapd needs an active maintainer

[Jakub Moc]

This ebuild has a security bug open for almost one year (Bug 142817),
plus lots of other bugs as well.

If you are interested, please see http://tinyurl.com/32webs


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Last rites: media-gfx/bootsplash

[Jakub Moc]

Alon Bar-Lev napsal(a):
> On 7/7/07, Rémi Cardona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Try using vesafb-tng (I know it doesn't support some resolutions either)
>> but interactions between vesafb-tng and the intel X driver are _much_
>> better.
> 
> Does not work either.
> There is a memory conflict between the X space and vesa.
> I basically think that users (As advanced Gentoo user can be) cannot
> have a workable environment in a reasonable effort... I know I have
> failed.

vesafb-tng works just perfectly fine here w/ nVidia/ATI/Intel. You are
doing something weird.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nero-3.0.0.0 license needs RESTRICT="fetch" ?

[Jakub Moc]

Harald van Dijk napsal(a):
> And what if they decide they don't accept the license on the first run?

Then the software won't run, very easy.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nero-3.0.0.0 license needs RESTRICT="fetch" ?

[Jakub Moc]

Mike Frysinger napsal(a):
> On Friday 06 July 2007, Jakub Moc wrote:
>> Harald van Dijk napsal(a):
>>> so eutils.eclass's check_license function should probably be used.
>> Broken until Bug 17367 is implemented.
> 
> the same exact thing could be said for everything using `built_with_use`

This check in this particular ebuild won't add anything useful; will
just bug users redundantly to accept a license which they'll have to
accept once again on the first run. Kinda miss the point here.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nero-3.0.0.0 license needs RESTRICT="fetch" ?

[Jakub Moc]

Harald van Dijk napsal(a):
> so eutils.eclass's check_license function should probably be used.

Broken until Bug 17367 is implemented. It's enough that loads of games
kill non-interactivity.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nero-3.0.0.0 license needs RESTRICT="fetch" ?

[Jakub Moc]

Samuli Suominen napsal(a):
> Missed something before.. But after reading this it leads me to
> conclusion nero-3.0.0.0 needs RESTRICT="fetch"? Would someone be kind
> enough to take a look for me to get a second opinion as it might be out
> of context / I'm overlooking something. Now, it's RESTRICT="mirror".
> 
> Also, I failed to see such ACCEPT button in their homepage.. but I see
> one after starting it(!).

Why would you need RESTRICT=fetch for stuff that displays license on
runtime and requires clicking on Accept there? You can as well remove
the package altogether because the 'trial version' is not downloadable
via their website, there's no license to click on and an attempt to
download the 'update version' (whatever it is) goes like this:


Could not find an appropriate hxplay or realplay in the system path to
use as an embedded player.

Click OK.

Could not find an appropriate hxplay or realplay in the system path to
use as an embedded player.

Click OK.

426 Transfer aborted. Data connection closed.

Click OK, get redirected to FTP site. Nothing happens. Follow the advice
and click 'click here' link.

Could not find an appropriate hxplay or realplay in the system path to
use as an embedded player.

Click OK.

Could not find an appropriate hxplay or realplay in the system path to
use as an embedded player.

Click OK.

426 Transfer aborted. Data connection closed.

Stare on a blank page until you fall asleep.


Well done, Nero. :P


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Last rites: app-admin/nologin, app-office/facturalux, x11-themes/jimmac-xcursors

[Jakub Moc]

Victor Barba napsal(a):
> Hola Raúl,
>  
>  
> Nosaltres fem servir facturalux+gentoo aquí a la feina, pero obviament
> no la versió del portage que està totalment obsoleta.
>  
> Si fessim lesforç de refer el ebuild, mantindries el paquet viu?
>  
> Saluts,
> Victor

??? English only, please.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] net-dns/bind{,-tools} needs an active maintainer

[Jakub Moc]

Tobias Scherbaum napsal(a):
> Konstantin V. Arkhipov wrote:
>>  i'm too busy with real life atm, is there anyone willing to help with 
>> bind's 
>> maintaining?
> 
> What's the current state of both packages? i.e. lots of open bugs?

Not really... 8 bugs altogether, 2 enhancements, 2 stabilization, 1
LDAP-related, 2 DLZ related, 1 hardened.

http://tinyurl.com/3cwhjv

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Re: [gentoo-dev] gnupg2 only vs gnupg-1 & gnupg-2

[Jakub Moc]

William L. Thomson Jr. napsal(a):
> This has sparked the following open bugs, and countless more closed
> ones :(
> 
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153496
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160302
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164523
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=171871
> 
> Probably more open bugs, those are just what I stumbled across while
> looking for OTHER things :)

M'kay... about 3 gnome apps have issues w/ gnupg-2. Seriously, I could
care less; their problem. Maybe upstream will wake up sometimes, or
what's the horrible issue with porting those, beyond 'oh we don't care,
use gnupg-1 because the legacy feeling is oh so great'?

Shrug.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Packages with same name was -> Conversion of Emacs virtual packages

[Jakub Moc]

Thilo Bangert napsal(a):
>>> It isn't different.  That's the problem.  If you have two packages
>>> with the same name, you have the same problem.
>> On that note I would hope the vim/vi peeps would rename.
>> app-vim/ant
> 
> and app-vim/sudo

and app-xemacs/emerge, g


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: stabilizing expat 2.0.0

[Jakub Moc]

Steve Long napsal(a):
> welp's been away ;)

Oh well, the dreaded *buntu maintenance eats time, you know... *g*


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Re: [gentoo-dev] stabilizing expat 2.0.0

[Jakub Moc]

Caleb Tennis napsal(a):
>> I think the preserve_old_libs thing might just be the hack we need here.
> 
> It's been brought to my attention that a bad side effect from using the
> preserve_old_libs method is that if an intermediary library, like qt3, gets 
> rebuilt
> then you end up having both expat libraries linked against the kde libraries 
> at the
> same time which causes rather undesriable crashes.  Presumably this will 
> affect
> GNOME in a similar fashion as well.

Exactly one of the reasons there's been no preserve_old_libs thing in
the ebuild in the first place.

It's been discussed with the original maintainer over and over again,
and the conclusion was that it's not safe to have two versions of expat
installed on the same system. So, why don't we just stick to that and be
done with it?


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Conversion of Emacs virtual packages

[Jakub Moc]

Ulrich Mueller napsal(a):
> The Emacs team has converted the following virtual packages:
> 
>virtual/emacs
>virtual/flim
> 
> to new-style (aka GLEP 37) virtuals.

Oh, and naming the new-style virtuals the same as the real thing kills
binpkgs. :/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Conversion of Emacs virtual packages

[Jakub Moc]

Ulrich Mueller napsal(a):
> The Emacs team has converted the following virtual packages:
> 
>virtual/emacs
>virtual/flim
> 
> to new-style (aka GLEP 37) virtuals. If there are no objections,
> I will remove the old virtuals from the profiles one week from now
> (22 May 2007).

Leaving the old-style virtuals in place leaves the new style ones
non-fuctional, so you'd better remove them right now. ;)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] trial software in portage?

[Jakub Moc]

Carsten Lohrke napsal(a):
> On Montag, 14. Mai 2007, Jakub Moc wrote:
>> Uhm, kindly leave app-arch/rar alone; that unrar-gpl thing is just a bad
>> joke.
> 
> There's app-arch/unrar, so this is no point. When unrar-gpl is so broken, why 
> it's in the tree?
> 
> 
> Carsten

As the name unrar suggests, it doesn't *pack* stuff, in only unpacks it.
So, thanks and leave the thing alone in the tree; and yeah, there are
really people who work w/ .rar stuff still, tar.{gz,bz2} hasn't
dominated the world yet.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] trial software in portage?

[Jakub Moc]

Timothy Redaelli napsal(a):
> /me votes for remove them (and app-cdr/nero)

Uhm, kindly leave app-arch/rar alone; that unrar-gpl thing is just a bad
joke.

(No idea what does the rest of licenses belong to, would make sense to
post ebuilds names instead.)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: ion license

[Jakub Moc]

Ulrich Mueller napsal(a):
> Maybe the following are also interesting in this context:
> 
> Debian:
><http://womble.decadent.org.uk/blog/renaming-of-ion3>
><http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=69522>
> Archlinux:
><http://www.archlinux.org/pipermail/tur-users/2007-April/004634.html>
> 
> I wonder if a package should be kept whose author is threatening with
> "legal repercurssions" [sic].
> 
> Ulrich

Please, drop this thing from the tree. It has clearly no future in
Gentoo anyway:

http://www.archlinux.org/pipermail/tur-users/2007-April/004644.html


> The only way to keep absolute control over the product as delivered to
> the user is to change the license and distribute Ion3 as binary-only.

I am going to do that. And, in fact, after final Ion3 is released, I'm
not going to write a line of so-called "free software"; so poor has
been the treatment of the FOSS herd (both of my code, and of the good
old *nix), that I'm not going to do them any services any more.


This post provides a very good reasoning so I'll just link it:

http://www.archlinux.org/pipermail/tur-users/2007-April/004653.html

P.S. And, please forget the 'but we only distribute ebuild, not the
package' line. The guy is seriously paranoid, annoying and crazy. Next
time he's apparently gonna claim that portage is a derivative work of Ion3.

http://www.archlinux.org/pipermail/tur-users/2007-April/004663.html
http://www.archlinux.org/pipermail/tur-users/2007-April/004659.html

I'm not interested in his personal crusade against font handling on
Linux, nor are most of users. No place for such frenzy in Gentoo - not
worth the trouble, and noone should encourage such attitude, more
importantly.


FOSS shit has been on a constant downward slide ever since I started
using it back in '95-'96, especially after all sorts of world domination
plans, like Gnome, were announced. Windows, OTOH, has improved, although
Vista has a small degradation again: you also can't easily disable the
blurry fonts completely, just like Linux that requires writing loads
of XML shit to do so. Maybe they've employed a few representative
specimens of the FOSS herd -- a bunch of teenagers wanking to buzzwords,
instead of pr0n. No wonder they can't tell a blurry font from a crisp
one.


Once again, I don't want to use any software produced by such abusive
moron, and other people should do the same - or they should help them
themselves and compile the only original, trademarked Ion3 (C)(TM) manually.

*annoyed*


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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: ion license

[Jakub Moc]

Peter Gordon napsal(a):
> On Sun, 2007-05-13 at 00:41 +0200, Jakub Moc wrote:
>> Well, one could ask why we should provide ebuild for stuff that has
>> apparently insane upstream, instead of just dropping such junk until the
>> upstream guy realizes that the world doesn't spin around him.
> 
> But if we did this, we'd have no cdrecord. ;)

That's why we have app-cdr/cdrkit now... :D


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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: ion license

[Jakub Moc]

Jan Kundrát napsal(a):
> Matti Bickel wrote:
>> It's main additions are a "timely response clause", which
>> requires us to get the same keywords for a newly released version as the
>> previous had within 28 days. Another point is the "no patches" clause,
>> which prohibits distributions from carrying a "significantly modified"
>> ion-3 release under the ion name.
> 
> So just rename the package to something that "clearly illustrates that
> this isn't teh upstream Ion anymore!!!111one" and be done with that. If
> users complain, ask them to talk to Tuomo Valkonen.
> 
> Cheers,
> -jkt
> 

Well, one could ask why we should provide ebuild for stuff that has
apparently insane upstream, instead of just dropping such junk until the
upstream guy realizes that the world doesn't spin around him.


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[gentoo-dev] www-client/pybugz needs a maintainer

[Jakub Moc]

Nice utility, now unfortunately a bit orphaned and with lots of open
bugs. If you are interested, see http://tinyurl.com/2mkd7s

Thanks.

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[gentoo-dev] mail-mta/courier needs a maintainer

[Jakub Moc]

The current ebuild is outdated and there's a couple of minor issues that
are getting stale. If you are interested, see http://tinyurl.com/s8o6k

Thanks.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 news item for review: Radiant upgrade

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sun, 6 May 2007 22:50:40 +0200
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> It might be infinitely more, yet it still isnt worth anything for the
>> reasons already explained which you, I guess, have accidently
>> overlooked again. I bet your users wont like reading zillions of -
>> for gods sake - very very trivial news items for each and every
>> package that hits the tree or they upgrade or what so ever else.
> 
> And they won't get zillions. Read the thread.

Sure they will gets zillions of them if everyone starts abusing this
feature the same way as you suggest. Imagine an average install w/ ~700
packages notifying users about config file changes and similar stuff.

>> And if your expierence shows they will do like this, just write all
>> the news items, and put them up your own repository, at let your
>> happy users read them from there.
> 
> Also already been covered. Read the thread.

Haven't noticed either, maybe you could point us to where has this been
covered?


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 42 news item for review: Radiant upgrade

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sun, 6 May 2007 16:00:56 -0400
> Dan Meltzer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Er, making elog logged by default would not solve the "requires an
>>> explicit read" problem. Making elog require an explicit read would
>>> be far too annoying because most elog notices are noise. We've been
>>> over this already.
>> Not if one filters it properly.  ELOG_CLASSES="warn error" sounds
>> like a sane default to me.  
> 
> So you want users to have to explicitly acknowledge all ewarn notices?
> Now *that*'s a way of making the system useless by overusing it.

Why would you acknowledge them? They are a different feature (plus,
seriously no mail gets automagically marked as read, if you use the mail
elog feature e.g. Maybe you should actually try to use the stuff before
recycling your 'our experience shows' and 'elog sucks' scratched record
once again.)

Plus, why's this thread been hijacked again for the paludis upgrade
stuff that doesn't need any news at all and that's been committed in
breach of GLEP42 itself?!

- paludis already loudly warns about the deprecated syntax whenever used;
- drop this "users like it" and "experience has shown" stuff. Experience
based on 4 news items is no experience at all; experience based on
one-package overlay is irrelevant wrt a repository with thousands of
ebuilds; and "users like it" may be nice for one package overlay, and a
genuine PITA for a tree with thousands of ebuilds at the same time.
Repeating it doesn't go anywhere, nor will it make any of your point
more valid.


Thanks.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: modifications to GLEP42

[Jakub Moc]

Petteri Räty napsal(a):
> Dan Meltzer kirjoitti:
>> mmm, by this arguement news should be written for every version bump, 
>> explaining what has changed in the package that is user visible.  It would 
>> definatly improve the users experience if they knew what they were upgrading 
>> to, not just that they were upgrading.
>>
> 
> For the standard version bumps people should be documenting things like
> this in ChangeLog. Too bad it's usually just "Version bump. Fixes bug
> #XX."

Well, 'fixes bug #XX' is still way more useful entry than 'many
bugfixes' or nothing at all in ChangeLog - which is not so rare at all,
unfortunately :/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

Christian Hartmann napsal(a):
>> The paludis news item has been approved by me, cause I rock, and
>> commited to the proper location.
> 
> Council?

+1

This should be put on hold until there's some consent and guidelines on
how this is supposed to be used. The current 100+ emails threads clearly
suggests it's not the case ATM.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sat, 5 May 2007 23:48:31 +0200
> Maurice van der Pot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 10:26:50PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>>> and who knows what news item delivery looks like? 
>> Irrelevant, what it looks like has nothing to do with whether or not
>> it is critical.
> 
> No no, it matters. The degree to which an unnecessary news item would
> inconvenience the end user is relevant in making the decision.

Eh, something being inconvenient doesn't make the thing any more or less
critical, so yeah, it's entirely irrelevant.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
>> There's nothing critical about your * stuff.
> 
> Sure there is. If users aren't informed about the change in an
> appropriate manner, the users get annoyed.
> 
> You're trying to sabotage this based upon arguments over wording
> technicalities. Where is your evidence that this is not delivering
> what is best for affected users?

I'm not trying to sabotage anything but total misuse of the feature.
Would have the same objections wrt whatever other "critical" news that'd
constitute completely inappropriate usage of GLEP42 features. (And I'd
expect that you'd show a bit more knowledge of the GLEP you are a
co-author of, frankly.)

The relevant paludis output has been pasted twice already, so let me try
one last time:


  ... Use of token '*' is deprecated, use '*/*' instead


How much more explanation about this 'critical' change do the users
*need*? If they don't get the above, maybe paludis and Linux just isn't
for them and they should stick to Windows. Meanwhile there's no need to
establish a precedent of using critical news for PEBKAC issues.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:19:27 +0200
> Jakub Moc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
>>> On Sat, 5 May 2007 22:00:27 +0200
>>> Wernfried Haas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>> Paludis users do see the need for a news item.
>>>> Not the question if paludis users see the need. Not even the
>>>> question if i see the need. The point is that GLEP 42 doesn't.
>>> GLEP 42 is designed to deliver important information to users that
>>> need to see it. This is exactly what's being requested here.
>> OK, is this the 'how stupid this thread can become' contest?
> 
> No, it's about delivering the best experience we can to end users. If
> you're wanting to find a thread to stupidify, pick a different one.

Erm, not really? This is about proper usage of GLEP42 stuff. If you want
to improve user experience in other ways, file another GLEP for that,
instead of misusing critical news porting for is. There's nothing
critical about your * stuff.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sat, 5 May 2007 22:00:27 +0200
> Wernfried Haas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Paludis users do see the need for a news item.
>> Not the question if paludis users see the need. Not even the question
>> if i see the need. The point is that GLEP 42 doesn't.
> 
> GLEP 42 is designed to deliver important information to users that need
> to see it. This is exactly what's being requested here.

OK, is this the 'how stupid this thread can become' contest? Lets quote
one of the previous mails then:


[EMAIL PROTECTED]: [WARNING] In program paludis -ip kdelibs:
  ... When making environment from specification '':
  ... When loading paludis configuration:
  ... When reading licenses file '/etc/paludis/licenses.conf':
  ... When adding source '/etc/paludis/licenses.conf' as a licenses file:
  ... Use of token '*' is deprecated, use '*/*' instead


You seriously want to claim that paludis users can't read? Again; what
exactly are you after here? (And drop the 'experience has shown', 'users
want it', 'it's non-trivial' etc. etc. rhetoric please - it doesn't go
anywhere nor does it explain anything.)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sat, 5 May 2007 21:18:38 +0200
> Wernfried Haas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 06:46:47PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>>> It warns noisily. 
>> Then it's not even close to being broken and i don't see the need for
>> a news item.
> 
> You don't use Paludis. Paludis users do see the need for a news item.
> 

Well, then frankly feed those news to your overlay users; we don't need
such stuff abused in gentoo-x86 because paludis users are unable
(according to your claims) read explicit runtime deprecation warnings.

Because the above is clearly stupid - what are you really after here,
may I ask? I guess amne is right here.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

Stephen Bennett napsal(a):
> On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:12:03 +0200
> Marius Mauch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
>> a g42 news item shouldn't be issued for minor syntax
>> changes in config files that could just as well handled completely
>> automatically in postinst/CONFIG_PROTECT.
> 
> And these changes can't be handled that way, since paludis configs can
> and do exist in home directories as well as in /etc.

Shrug; frankly just a matter of adding $HOME/.paludis/etc or whatever
(example) to CONFIG_PROTECT... Why it couldn't be done?


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 15:48:28 +0200
> Jakub Moc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> OK, I'm afraid that GLEP42 is missing the part that critical news
>> reporting does not replace documentation. You seriously intend to use
>> this feature for such stuff and force everyone to download this via
>> rsync?
> 
> You seriously intend to use elog across lots of ebuilds rather than a
> single news item?

Yeah, I seriously think package documentation belongs to tarballs and
gets installed to /usr/share/docs/${PF} - not to gentoo-x86 repository
where you are forcing every single user to download such stuff via rsync
and have it sitting on their disk even if they don't use the package at
all.

And if you need a pointer to new features, a simple 'elog "Read the
NEWS/Changelog in /usr/share/doc/${PF}" or a link to a website is
definitely more appropriate that abusing critical news for howtos and
new features announcement.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

Stephen P. Becker napsal(a):
> For example, a recent news
> item in the paludis overlay informed users on how to properly set
> everything up for userpriv with paludis-0.22, a description that was far
> too detailed for elog, and which I didn't have time to read the very
> minute that I installed the new version.  What do you know...the next
> day I was ready to set things up...and oh look, there was nice,
> detailed instructions waiting for me to read with eselect news.

OK, I'm afraid that GLEP42 is missing the part that critical news
reporting does not replace documentation. You seriously intend to use
this feature for such stuff and force everyone to download this via rsync?


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 15:15:55 +0200
> Jakub Moc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> How does it matter exactly whether it's paludis users, gcc users, php
>> users, apache users or whoever else who will use the news item? Let's
>> not misuse news framework for stuff that
> 
> Er, that's one of the main points of GLEP 42's design: it allows
> delivery of news items that are important to a subset of users only to
> that subset. The size of the subset is entirely irrelevant.

That's not what I've been pointing out at all, you've completely snipped
the important part about *unintended* use of this feature. So, once
again - this is not an elog replacement and is not intended for trivial
stuff (see the 'critical news' in GLEP42 title).

>> For this particular case, you can (and do even) advise specifically
>> the affected users only on runtime that the config files syntax has
>> been changed. (Frankly, you don't even need elog stuff for similar
>> things; everyone concerned will get the message paludis spits on the
>> screen when they try to use it).
> 
> Experience and user feedback has shown that in situations like this
> users want an accompanying news item even if the application does output
> deprecation warnings.

Well again, what kind of experience? You cannot just carry over an
existing practice of heavily abusing such stuff in a particular overlay
with a couple of ebuilds and implant it into a tree with thousands of
packages - it will produce loads of annoying noise and the feature will
become useless if every maintainer starts to use news framework in a
similar way.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sat, 05 May 2007 14:53:47 +0200
> Jakub Moc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> For what situation? Changing * to */* is a bunch of config files (as
>> far as I've been told, paludis warns about this deprecated syntax
>> anyway)?
>>
>> If we are going to abuse "critical news reporting" feature for such
>> trivialities, most users are going to ignore the noise pretty soon.
> 
> Only Paludis users will use the news item. To Paludis users, the news
> item is not a triviality or noise. To everyone else it's irrelevant.

How does it matter exactly whether it's paludis users, gcc users, php
users, apache users or whoever else who will use the news item? Let's
not misuse news framework for stuff that

- it's not been intended for (i.e. do not use it as elog replacement,
see GLEP 42)
- for trivialities in general

For this particular case, you can (and do even) advise specifically the
affected users only on runtime that the config files syntax has been
changed. (Frankly, you don't even need elog stuff for similar things;
everyone concerned will get the message paludis spits on the screen when
they try to use it).


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sat, 5 May 2007 10:30:40 +0200
> Marius Mauch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> And given that the GLEP specifically states that news items are not
>> suposed to replace the usual postinst einfo/elog messages I'm tempted
>> to call this an abuse of the news framework.
> 
> The usual postinst messages are inadequate for this situation.

For what situation? Changing * to */* is a bunch of config files (as far
as I've been told, paludis warns about this deprecated syntax anyway)?

If we are going to abuse "critical news reporting" feature for such
trivialities, most users are going to ignore the noise pretty soon.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] gentoo: static/dynamic linking libraries

[Jakub Moc]

On 4/29/07, Roman Zimmermann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I'm now using gentoo with EXTRA_ECONF="--disable-static" for a while and it
seems quite stable. Sometimes I encounter a package that won't build with
this setting, but that's a rare occasion. At the moment this packages are for
me:
dev-libs/libpcre


Disabling static libs in libpcre makes sys-apps/grep w/ USE=pcre bomb
out on compile... Just an example why you should always install both
of them.


Disabling static linking has - for me - before all the advantage of reducing
size for most packages - for some packages up to 50%.

So I'm curious why (nearly?) all ebuilds build static _and_ dynamic libraries?
I understand that the current way is pretty hassle-free. But from my
perspective a (possibly officialy unsupported) way to make things easier for
people who wan't the choice would be fine.


See http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165629,
http://marc.info/?l=gentoo-dev&m=116026024223024&w=2 etc.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Artwork

[Jakub Moc]

On 4/29/07, William L. Thomson Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Fri, 2007-04-27 at 11:28 +0200, Bjarke Istrup Pedersen wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> It would be nice if there where some CD/DVD labels created, that people
> could print and put on their LiveCDs/InstallCDs :-)

Yes that would be quit nice. At LWE in 06 we were handing out cds we
were burning with hand written labels. So for any events were we give
out livecds and etc. Would make a big difference at least in first
impressions for many, IMHO.


I've found something here...

http://download.iansview.com/gentoo/artwork/ian/livecds/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Planning for automatic assignment of bugs

[Jakub Moc]

On 4/27/07, Nguyen Thai Ngoc Duy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 4/26/07, Joshua Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Nguyen Thai Ngoc Duy wrote:
> > It should take devaway into account.
> >
> why? Seriously, dev-away != dev retired... having it take devaway into
> account is pointless in my opinion as it won't improve it being properly
> assigned...as it'll be covered in other cases, and its not like there's
> not bugs for all of us dev's that have not sat there for a month or so,
> at some point

I meant if a maintainer is away, his/her herd should be assignee with
him/her CCed.


Eh; if the maintainer has been away for months (a.k.a MIA), then
yeah... otherwise, no reason for this if someone's away for a week.
Sorry to disappoint you and others here, but the scripts will lack
artificial intelligence and frankly I don't see what exactly are you
expecting from this whole thing. Anyway, good luck. ;)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New project: Gentoo Artwork

[Jakub Moc]

On 4/27/07, Dawid Węgliński <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Ciaran McCreesh napisał(a):
> On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 19:03:02 -0600
> Steve Dibb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Sweet.  Are you gonna bring back those Gentoo icons that mysteriously
>> disappeared? :)
>
> The ones with the copyright problems?
>

I'm out of topic i think. Could you amplify, please?


http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158197
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-nfp/msg_01213.xml
http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_141498.xml

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [ANN] Multiple version suffixes illegal in gentoo-x86

[Jakub Moc]

On 4/25/07, Chris Gianelloni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I don't understand how nobody can see that the *TEMPORARY* injunction
against packages using this versioning scheme was put into place
*BECAUSE* nobody could agree on the solution.

Actually, nevermind.  I digress.  You're right.  The Council screwed up.
Feel free to give us all our 50 lashings and we'll be done with this
crap.


Sigh... It for sure did sound like 'oh noes, the end of the world is
near if we don't stop this immediately!!!111!'. Sorry, but I really
fail to see the need to use such procedures when the only 2 remaining
packages (eh, actually just one, the obsolete transcode ebuild is
gone) clearly use multiple version suffixes because it makes a lot of
sense to use them and they use them in a pretty sane way  (unlike all
the crazy _alpha_beta_rc_pre examples given on the relevant bug and
elsewhere in this debate).

It's not like that the maintainers would use such stuff because 'oh
it's so cl to have multiple version suffixes, I must commit at
least one such ebuild'. What's exactly your 'sane version
specification'  that you ask the maintainers of such ebuilds to move
them to 'as soon as possible'? And why's moving them ASAP exactly
needed?

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [ANN] Multiple version suffixes illegal in gentoo-x86

[Jakub Moc]

On 4/25/07, Duncan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Jurek Bartuszek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> posted [EMAIL PROTECTED],
excerpted below, on  Tue, 24 Apr 2007 23:08:49 +0200:

>> Existing _rcX cases can be handled like this:
>>
>>   _rc2-rMMDD
So then to cure that we end up with this:

_rc2-rMMDDrr, where rr being two digits taking the place of the
second revision sequence ( the -rX in _rc2-rMMDD-rX) in the example
above.  Human parsing of that long a string of digits becomes
increasingly difficult, unfortunately, but it should work.


Bleh; fugly abuse of revisions; they are not meant to be used for
upstream code changes. Sorry but mplayer-1.0_rc2_pre20070321-r4 or
alsa-driver-1.0.14_rc2_p3234 is a whole lot more sane and readable
than the above -rMMDD kludge.

On a general note - if you are unable to agree upon an acceptable
solution, then better refrain from taking 'emergency' measures on
issues where there's no emergency whatsoever. There's been a bug open
for over two months and noone ever suggested that I'd be a case for
urgent council decision.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: File collisions

[Jakub Moc]

On 4/20/07, Rob C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 19/04/07, Christian Faulhammer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Arch teams normally have collision-protect enabled when doing
> keywording/stablingin my eyes this is sufficient.
Its obviously not, Many users are reporting file-collisions on a weekly
basis. So either this isn't sufficient or the arch teams are not acting as
you describe.


This can't be done yet, there's a couple of minor issues to iron out
(some python and gcc stuff collisions). After those few remaining
issues get finished, yeah this would be a useful default FEATURE.
There's quite a couple of bugs (usually pretty cryptic ones) caused by
clobbering files that belong to other ebuilds.

@Opfer: Users will usually notice many more of those collisions simply
because they are testing on a system that they normally use, while
developers are often testing in chroots or test boxes with just the
bare-bones system installed.

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[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] FYI: Jakub suspended two weeks for bad behaviour

[Jakub Moc]

On 4/18/07, Bryan Østergaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Now, I didn't set out to threaten him in any way but after 30 minutes
with no response to my question and even more angry devs demanding me to
solve this situation I had to do something to stop it. I personally
think trying to talk to the developer before contemplating disabling
access is much better than disabling access and asking questions
afterwards so I tried to get his attention in a rather drastic way. And
somehow he just happened to respond in less than 30 seconds after that
at which point we could finally settle the dispute.


Good to see that you are s much concerned about other developers.
At the same time you've repeatedly decided to ignore any of my
requests fo intervene when I've been attacked by users/other
developers on bugzilla for no particularly good reason and have been
receiving tens of bugspams per hour. Nice to see the double standards
that have been developed by our impartial devrel lead over time.


I would have expected jakub to respect the maintainer wishes and at the
very least try to contact maintainers before repeating this but
unfortunately he doesn't see any reason to do so from what I can tell.


Why did you once again ignore the points I have made wrt this? Over
and over again, you've been very well aware what's been going on w/
peitolm. And wrt the keywording bugs re-assignment, it's something
that's been done routinely all the time. And I've said that if any
maintainer has issues w/ re-assigning the keywording stuff to arches,
they are welcome to contact me and we'll sort it out. (Oh, and not
exactly my fault that you got angry because alpha has gone ahead of
mips in the slacker stats on these re-assignments, which apparently
was something you couldn't bear.)

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[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] FYI: Jakub suspended two weeks for bad behaviour

[Jakub Moc]

On 4/17/07, Bryan Østergaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

It's not about how old the bugs are. Some action might very well be in
order on old bugs but you still have to work with the maintainer. If you
make a reasonable attempt at contacting the maintainer and don't get any
responses for say 2 weeks reassigning the bug might be in order.


So - why are you lying here again? I've already stated that you
'(devrel) have been CCed on the last email conversation w/ peitolm,
you've been well aware when the last re-assign happened about one year
ago as well. Yeah, you didn't give a damn, what reasonable steps to
contact a developer that doesn't care for anything but re-assigning
bugs back to himself to keep ignoring them for yet another year do you
expect?

Sorry, you've miserably failed, you should have retired this guy long
time ago before things went this far, since he obviously doesn't care
about Gentoo users, but just about his territorial pissings. Instead,
you've chosen to jump on me for doing my job. Oh well done indeed.


Just reassigning the bug and disregarding the maintainers wish is rude
at best and doesn't exactly make future cooperation any easier imo.


Maybe just read above? What kind of co-operation are you expecting wrt
developers who have repeatedly shown that they can't plain be bothered
with fixing their junk, because they are just way too cool to deal
with some useless idiots, such as bug wranglers?

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[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-core] FYI: Jakub suspended two weeks for bad behaviour

[Jakub Moc]

On 4/17/07, Bryan Østergaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

And just to be even more clear about this - his bad behaviour isn't only
about language but also about his actions on bugzilla such as
reassigning bugs without trying to contact maintainers first,
reassigning bugs against the maintainers explicit wishes etc.


Err, you know very well that devrel has been CCed on the last email
exchange w/ peitolm (about ~6 weeks ago)... which, oh what a surprise,
hasn't gone anywhere yet again, and the same exact 2 year old bugs
have been carried on into yet another ebuild version.

But as stated in my original resignation, slacking developers feeling
uncomfortable and their wishes to keep ignoring their bugs for another
couple of years being shamelessly disrespected are far more important
for Gentoo than the actual long-lasting breakage for users and clearly
noone should care too much about people who just happen to have
getting the bugs fixed in a timely manner a part of their job
description. Bug wranglers are in fact dumb assign/CC scripts who
definitely shouldn't care for the bugs once they've been assigned.


holding developers to higher
standards is completely in line with the council wishes I believe.


Indeed. I've noticed the high standards being pushed by devrel quite a
couple of times, such as in [1]. So Bret, I sincerely hope you'll get
your devbox finally running after 3 years or so and you'll continue to
be such a great assett to Gentoo as you've been so far. ;)

[1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=38368

Best regards,

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Resignation

[Jakub Moc]

On 4/17/07, Bryan Østergaard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 06:01:46AM +0200, Jakub Moc wrote:
>
> Whoever is in charge, kindly change my bugzilla account to the email
> address this mail is sent from and take care of the setting the
> bugzilla privs accordingly. There's still a couple of bugs I've filed
> and maybe someone will take care of them. (No need to worry, Colin,
> you can sit on your bugs as long as you wish, I won't disturb you in
> your limbo),
>
This policy have recently changed as part of an overhaul on retirement
procedures. You'll have to create a new user account and watch the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] as documented in
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/infrastructure/retire-process.xml (See
'Retire Bugzilla account' part).


Oh, wonderful. Thanks so much, really helps and makes a lot of sense
to nuke people from the bugs they've themselves filed.

Bye.

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[gentoo-dev] Resignation

[Jakub Moc]

So  Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our
brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more.
I'm therefore resigning from this project.

I'm pretty sure it will be actually no loss for Gentoo, since those
folks that contributed to my retirement far outweigh the benefit I
could ever possibly be to this project. This can be clearly evidenced
by their long-lasting good record as in [1] and [2] and [3]. In
devrel's own words, one needs to  "respect the wishes of maintainers".

So I'm respecting the wishes of said developer and am getting out of
his way - cheers and keep slackin', Colin! Keep on the great work! I
fully understand that respect for wishes of maintainers is far more
important than fixing stuff in the tree for our users; unfortunately
those wishes are incompatible with my tasks of a bug wrangler. Of
course that can be quickly remedied by taking simple steps such as
suspending the offenders who complain on the bugs, so no big deal.

I'd also like to express my sincere thanks to our QA team, they've
been a tremendous help to me, especially since spb took the position
of QA lead and eroyf  joined them. This can be documented on way too
many bugs, this email is getting long so I'd just mention [4] as a
good example of nice work these folks have been doing. Also thanks for
the neutral approach you've taken on the other bugs quoted above, I'm
pretty sure that's the right thing to do for QA. No need at all to be
concerned about bugs that have been sitting there for mere two years,
we shouldn't make the precious maintainers angry, right.

Finally, my thanks go to devrel and especially our devrel lead, for
the professional,  unbiased etc. conduct they've presented on my
devrel bug [5] (sorry, ask your friendly devrel member to unrestrict
if you can't read it, after all I can't access it either), as well as
before. I indeed entirely failed when I removed myself from the
"discussion about possible misbehaviour on [my] side". I'm pretty sure
the fact that noone CCed me there in the first place for about 9
months was just an unfortunate oversight of our fully professional
devrel. So, thanks a bunch again, kloeri. I'm the worst CoC offender
in the whole Gentoo ever, and fully deserve to be punished. In no way
we should disturb the old good boys club around #-uk, that could
endanger your position and would require guts; no need for that.

Whoever is in charge, kindly change my bugzilla account to the email
address this mail is sent from and take care of the setting the
bugzilla privs accordingly. There's still a couple of bugs I've filed
and maybe someone will take care of them. (No need to worry, Colin,
you can sit on your bugs as long as you wish, I won't disturb you in
your limbo),

For all the rest of folks that haven't found themselves above, sorry,
no thanks for you in this mail. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't
appreciate to be thanked in this context, and that's a good thing.

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!

[1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=82772
[2] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143519
[3] http://cia.vc/stats/author/peitolm
[4] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166790
[5] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=134852

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Re: [gentoo-dev] net-dialup/pppoed pending for removal

[Jakub Moc]

Catalin Zamfir Alexandru napsal(a):
> So how are we going to connect to PPP after the removal? I'm using the 2.6 
> kernel, but stil use /usr/sbin/pppoe-start

1/ net-dialup/pppoed != net-dialup/rp-pppoe
2/ See
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=4&chap=3#doc_chap4


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 Jakub Moc
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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 ... still no signature   ;)



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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 1 (Was: Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for April)

[Jakub Moc]

Jan Kundrát napsal(a):
> Jakub Moc wrote:
>> Even such change would piss off users. Having *no* way to turn off
>> tests, uuuhhh please retire me *before* someone implements this, I'm not
>> going to waste my time on totally pointless bugs filed by furious users.
> 
> FEATURES="-test"?

... wouldn't do anything, because the suggestion was that src_test()
should be mandatory in EAPI=1 and would run by default unless you have
RESTRICT="test" set in ebuild.


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 Jakub Moc
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 ... still no signature   ;)



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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 1 (Was: Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for April)

[Jakub Moc]

Alec Warner napsal(a):
> Any arch team that wants tests by default on their arch can just add
> test to FEATURES in their arch profiles; magically the users running
> that arch will get the tests run (with USE=test set) by default.  Users
> who don't want tests can always turn them off in make.conf.

Even such change would piss off users. Having *no* way to turn off
tests, uuuhhh please retire me *before* someone implements this, I'm not
going to waste my time on totally pointless bugs filed by furious users.


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 Jakub Moc
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 ... still no signature   ;)



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: 2007.0 release

[Jakub Moc]

Chris Gianelloni napsal(a):
> On Fri, 2007-04-13 at 20:40 +0200, Jakub Moc wrote:
>> Thilo Bangert napsal(a):
>>> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156814
>> Yeah. It's restricted to developers only, though, so not much useful for
>> users. :)
> 
> Yeah, I did that because we had users adding their favorite apps to the
> snapshot tracker, which had absolutely no place there. 

I'm not implying there's anything wrong w/ restricting the bug; just
that pointing users here to it won't get them very far. ;)

> Currently, I keep track of the release via a spreadsheet > but I've
been working towards getting
> a project tracking software package setup and configured to replace this
> functionality. 

Sounds cool, good luck. Homebrew one, or something else? :)


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 ... still no signature   ;)



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[gentoo-dev] Re: 2007.0 release

[Jakub Moc]

Thilo Bangert napsal(a):
> this seems to come up more often than you like. is this the release 
> tracker bug?
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=156814
> 
> kind regards
> Thilo


Yeah. It's restricted to developers only, though, so not much useful for
users. :)


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 Jakub Moc
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: April Council meeting summary

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 19:20:46 +0200
> Jakub Moc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
>>> If someone can provide a good reason for changing to a system that's
>>> more work, I'll change. If there isn't a good reason, I won't.
>> Maybe if you actually read the council log, you'd see the reason?
>> yeah, it's indeed there, believe me.
> 
> I did, and I don't see it. Perhaps you'd care to paste what you think
> the relevant parts are?
> 

[16:49]  infra won't give any access to non-devs that needs SSH
keys.

Isn't that hard to find I'd say?

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 Jakub Moc
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: April Council meeting summary

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> If someone can provide a good reason for changing to a system that's
> more work, I'll change. If there isn't a good reason, I won't.

Maybe if you actually read the council log, you'd see the reason? yeah,
it's indeed there, believe me.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 1 (Was: Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for April)

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> You're missing the point.
> 
> As of a year or so ago, dosym will succeed even if the dosym target
> directory doesn't exist, and even if it means creating arbitrary
> directories. Some other utilities, such as dohard for example, will
> fail under otherwise identical circumstances.
> 
> There is nothing in dosym's name that suggests that it will create a
> directory as well as a symlink -- it is not like, for example, dobin or
> dosbin in this respect, both of which clearly are allowed to create a
> well defined, non-variable path.

Err, your suggestion was:

* Remove automatic directory making for do*

So, yeah I really fail to see the point of doing stuff like this:

-dobin foo
+dodir /usr/bin
+dobin foo

or

-exeinto /usr/share/${PN}/scripts
-doexe scripts/*
+exeinto /usr/share/${PN}/scripts
+dodir /usr/share/${PN}/scripts
+doexe scripts/*

all over the tree.

> If anyone really *is* relying upon dosym to create a directory, rather
> than having it happen by accident, adding in a dodir beforehand when
> switching EAPIs is easy, and will prevent accidental directory creation.

And who will wade through the entire tree and check for such stuff? You?

>> If the Makefiles suck, file bugs upstream instead of dumping the stuff
>> on Gentoo users.
> 
> It's not the users that will see this. It's developers. The only time
> it will fail for users and not developers is when something's broken
> anyway, and that's far better than ending up with a broken install.

Well of course it's the users who will see it, see above. It's not like
that we would have 100 volunteers around to drop everything they have in
their hands a go spend days on changing ebuilds that are not broken just
because of this idea.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 1 (Was: Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for April)

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> What? No it wouldn't. It would ensure that bugs were caught during the
> src_install phase rather than after a package has been installed.

What kind of bugs exactly? The ones *created* by this behavior change?
I'd rather not create such bugs for starters, because it's plain pointless.

If the Makefiles suck, file bugs upstream instead of dumping the stuff
on Gentoo users. People are already pretty much overloaded by the tons
of various QA checks all over the place...


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Re: [gentoo-dev] EAPI 1 (Was: Re: Monthly Gentoo Council Reminder for April)

[Jakub Moc]

Mike Frysinger napsal(a):
>>>> * Remove automatic directory making for do*
>>> No
>> It masks all kinds of programming screwups. doblah should make a blah,
>> not make a blah and possibly make a directory.
> 
> name one
> 
> you're proposing we suddenly bloat all of our src_install functions for no 
> gain at all ... sounds like a no brainer to me

+1, this is a horrible idea that would just cause loads of bugs
impossible to check for in advance, major work for lots of people and
major bloat for no good reason. Bleh. :/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] PMS renewed call for comments

[Jakub Moc]

Donnie Berkholz napsal(a):
> Stephen Bennett wrote:
>> The open bug list is down to two, on which I want more input before
>> resolving them. We could also use more eyes again to bring up any other
>> issues before it's reckoned final.

> Could we get a pointer to that bug list?

All bugs: http://tinyurl.com/2q87ho
Open bugs only: http://tinyurl.com/2tm9mw

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New ALSA maintainers

[Jakub Moc]

Bryan Østergaard napsal(a):
> Nobody is forcing anybody to use in-kernel drivers.

Uhm... http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=172490


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Re: [gentoo-dev] New ALSA maintainers

[Jakub Moc]

Daniel Drake napsal(a):
> Jakub Moc wrote:
>> - The in-kernel drivers seriously are not an equivalent alternative, let
>> alone the preferred one, for stuff like hda-intel or any similar drivers
>> that are under permanent heavy development, at least for now.
> 
> If hda-intel (or any other driver) from the kernel sources does not work
> on your system then you should file a bug. Yes, there are drivers under
> heavily development, this also applies to many other kernel subsystems
> too. We live with it. It's not as bad as it sounds.

It not only doesn't work for me, it doesn't work for majority of people
that have responded on this thread. So, something's wrong there I guess? :)

>> - This is not a duplicated maintenance effort, it's simply needed to
>> have external alsa-drivers ebuilds, and it's needed to have them
>> supported as ALSA upstream won't accept bugs about in-kernel drivers.
> 
> That's not true. I have supported in-kernel ALSA drivers for a long time
> and have never seen this be the case.

Hmmm, I'm not entirely sure what are you responding to here? What I said
was that "ALSA upstream won't accept bugs about in-kernel drivers" - now
how's that related to whether you (or kernel upstream) support them or not?

Additionally - forcing people to upgrade kernel for their sound issues
is not a solution for many of them. Kernel upgrades tend to break lots
of stuff on every minor version bump (and it's not only external modules
that upstream seems to plain hate and ignore mostly). Not exactly what
users would like to see when all they are trying to get is working
sound. Plus it's lot easier (and faster) to get patches into external
drivers than get them accepted into kernel.

 > Interestingly in this case, the in-kernel driver is a touch newer than
> the hda-intel one. It includes support for a few more hardware devices.
> Again these are only very small differences though.

As said, it's not about code being newer or older, it's about having two
different branches of the code. One works for someone, the other works
for someone else. What's exactly the benefit from trying to kill support
for upstream ALSA code and forcing people to use in-kernel drivers
(beyond what you see as 'duplicated' maintenance effort)? Users honestly
don't care much about 'duplicated' effort, they want a working sound on
their boxes.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] New ALSA maintainers

[Jakub Moc]

Josh Saddler napsal(a):
> I completely disagree with your assessment of the in-kernel hda-intel
> state. My workstation uses one of those (labelled nVidia MCP 55, for the
> curious), and my experiences with in-kernel ALSA have been nothing but
> positive with the intel audio, whether compiled or as modules.

I could say the same about your assessment of the in-kernel hda-intel
drivers, as could many other users... Same for via82xx - never had much
luck with the in-kernel drivers, plus upgrading the whole kernel over
and over again just to test whether something got fixed is a major PITA.

As said, these are two different branches, what works for somebody
doesn't need to work for someone else.

> For the record, the kernel and alsa team have gone back and forth on
> this for a long time -- and it's always been my task to update the ALSA
> guide for whichever "wins", or at least that's how it's been lately. The
> thing about ALSA upstream not accepting certain bugs -- I'm not sure
> Diego ever mentioned any such thing; is this really true?

I really don't get these fights, the two things can co-exist quite
nicely and users can benefit from this. What's this need to 'deprecate'
the external stuff once again about? (And yeah, ALSA upstream doesn't
deal with in-kernel drivers bugs.)

> At the very least, this should cut down on spurious bug reports on our
> own bugzilla. However, it'd be nice from the point of view of the GDP if
> the kernel and ALSA maintainers would decide, once and for all, what
> should be supported and what shouldn't, whether in-kernel or
> alsa-drivers is recommended. Because it's been going back and forth for
> years as to which gets priority in the docs. Pick something for the
> users to install and stick with it, please.

Both should be supported, as explained above. Spurious bugs? Not really
sure what you mean.

And no, kernel 2.4 is definitely not *the* reason to keep the external
alsa drivers supported (Frankly I'd be very happy to see the whole 2.4
kernel branch declared as unsupported on Gentoo - noone's really testing
anything against those kernels these days and the bugs are lingering
there for ages as noone cares; even the 2.4 kernels we still have in the
tree are pretty much unmaintained).


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Re: [gentoo-dev] New ALSA maintainers

[Jakub Moc]

Daniel Drake napsal(a):
> I have suggested that herd support for the kernelspace side
> (alsa-driver) be slowly reduced, by redirecting users who file bugs
> against it to reproduce with the in-kernel drivers, and then let kernel
> handle the bug resolution. This will remove duplicated maintenance efforts.
> 
> This will also mean no more stabling of -rc releases (and probably fewer
> of those in portage at all).
> 
> alsa-driver won't be going away altogether, as it is still needed for
> 2.4 users (but we won't support them forever) and I think it may include
> a couple of drivers which aren't yet in the kernel tree.

Uhm... Sorry to see this issue brought up yet again. Just a couple of
brief notes:

- The in-kernel drivers seriously are not an equivalent alternative, let
alone the preferred one, for stuff like hda-intel or any similar drivers
that are under permanent heavy development, at least for now.

- This is not a duplicated maintenance effort, it's simply needed to
have external alsa-drivers ebuilds, and it's needed to have them
supported as ALSA upstream won't accept bugs about in-kernel drivers.

- The two are basically different branches, and it's *not* about whether
the code is newer or older in one or the other at all.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] {Guide,Project,Foo}XML too confusing for many devs?

[Jakub Moc]

[snip]

Err, where the heck has gone the GuideXML editor project that was part
of last SoC?

(And yeah, I've heard from quite a couple of people that they are not
touching any docs because the GuideXML thing is something they'd rather
avoid like plague).


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [last rites] virtual/x11

[Jakub Moc]

Ryan Hill napsal(a):
> Ryan Hill wrote:
>> Michael Sterrett -Mr. Bones.- wrote:
> 
>>> I commented this out of package.mask.  x11-libs/fox-1.2.6-r2 still uses it.
>>> Need to fix that up before masking it.
> 
>> I'll have a look.
> 
> Okay, x11-libs/fox-1.2.6-r3 was added to the tree which fixed the
> virtual/x11 and GCC 4.1 compile issues.  It was marked stable on all
> archs except alpha.  Someone doing some cleanup accidentally removed it
> from the tree instead of the broken -r2.
> 
> We could restore -r3, but considering nothing in the tree depends on
> 1.2.6 and the number of months gone by without anyone even noticing -r2
> doesn't build, I think it might be better to just remove it along with
> virtual/x11.  fox fell into treecleaner territory until recently but it
> looks like mabi has taken over as maintainer, so it's up to him. ;)

Indeed... Don't re-unmask junk that breaks tons of things just because
an unused library version happens to depend on such junk. The whole
virtual/x11 dumpspace for missing deps was a horrible idea since the
very beginning and needs to die, now. It's already pretty overdue. It's
caused hundreds and hundreds of pointless bugs about 'missing'
dependencies and it's still breaking users. I could care less about
fox-1.2.6-r2, having this darned virtual unmasked breaks lots more
things than fox. There's no need for official QA proclamations about this.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Suggestion: INVALID -> NOCHANGE in bugzilla

[Jakub Moc]

Mike Frysinger napsal(a):
> On Saturday 24 March 2007, Caleb Cushing wrote:
>> could bugzilla be changed so that the default search includes bugs in all
>> status. instead of just open bugs. I know sometimes I'll miss closed bugs
>> because I'll forget to do an advanced search.
> 
> there is an open regression bug about this
> -mike

Hmmm, I'm not sure how much of an regression this is. AFAICT bugzilla
always required to prefix the search with ALL if you want to search for
resolved bugs as well. There's even a note about this directly on the
homepage, below the search box. :)

BTW, the tracker bug got closed on last upgrade, and this hasn't been
raised there at all. You've mentioned [1] a different issue, that was
about the advanced search which not too many users are using, I'd say.

(We are getting loads of duplicates for bugs that are still open as
well, this implies that people either don't search at all or don't know
how to search efficiently; so I'm not too enthusiastic that changing the
default search would significantly reduce the number of dupes... )

[1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115796#c4



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Suggestion: INVALID -> NOCHANGE in bugzilla

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> Jakub Moc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Oh, so resolving 'INVALID' a bug for people that report crap like 'oh,
>> my sci-mathematics/*' thingy got horribly broken with -ffast-math'
>> causes an offense to them? Well, that's a good thing, maybe they'll
>> actually use their brain next time.
> 
> So you feel that idiocy should be punished?
> 

It's already been punished as they've got their broken app; I just don't
see why I should be forced to spend even more time on this. So, what's
your question? If you ask whether INVALID is a valid resolution for
bugs, then yeah, it absolutely is, and no, I don't see any need to
change this.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Suggestion: INVALID -> NOCHANGE in bugzilla

[Jakub Moc]

Christopher Sawtell napsal(a):
>> See, I don't really care how the reporter feels, if something's not a
>> bug, then it's not a bug.
> In which case it must be a feature, so why not use the keyword FEATURE?

And why use it? Anything else than 'so that we are 'politically
correct'? Sorry, this doesn't go anywhere.

>> Don't invent confusing 'politically correct' 
>> junk for this just because someone might feel 'offended'.
> I think that insufficient people in the open source and free software 
> movements realize that in the real world there are differing cultures all of 
> whom have differing sensitivities to language constructs.
> 
> imnsho it's very important not to cause deliberate offense, because doing so 
> perpetuates the idea that FOSS movement people are an unpleasant bunch of 
> individuals. This causes users to make the choice of using computer products 
> from elsewhere, and developers to spend their free time doing other things.

Oh, so resolving 'INVALID' a bug for people that report crap like 'oh,
my sci-mathematics/*' thingy got horribly broken with -ffast-math'
causes an offense to them? Well, that's a good thing, maybe they'll
actually use their brain next time.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Suggestion: INVALID -> NOCHANGE in bugzilla

[Jakub Moc]

Kevin F. Quinn napsal(a):
[snip]

See, I don't really care how the reporter feels, if something's not a
bug, then it's not a bug. Don't invent confusing 'politically correct'
junk for this just because someone might feel 'offended'.

Thanks.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Suggestion: INVALID -> NOCHANGE in bugzilla

[Jakub Moc]

Kevin F. Quinn napsal(a):
> Arguably no bug is invalid in the normal sense - if someone raises an
> issue, they have an issue, regardless what we think of it.  To that end
> I'd like to propose bugzilla be reconfigured to use the phrase
> "NOCHANGE" instead of "INVALID".  NOCHANGE would indicate that whatever
> the original issue, no change is needed on our part to resolve the
> issue.
> 
> Any reasons why this would be a bad idea?
> 

NOCHANGE sucks... If you really insist on doing anything, then use NOTABUG.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] About testing applications

[Jakub Moc]

Jeff Rollin napsal(a):
> On 18/03/07, Jakub Moc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> It wouldn't become any more or less cluttered than ~/ now...

> Which is why I was saying there was no point in a ~/.config directory...

I guess you are missing the point? Fire up Midnight Commander and watch
the cruft in your ~/; sure there'd be a point to move all these config
files to a dedicated directory, instead of having them directly in ~/
(and no, I don't want to hide 'hidden' directories, this is not a
Windows Explorer :P)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] About testing applications

[Jakub Moc]

Jeff Rollin napsal(a):
> On 18/03/07, Piotr Jaroszyński <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On Sunday 18 of March 2007 13:37:55 Jeff Rollin wrote:
>> > Also, if you have a .config directory to put all these files in, ~
>> > becomes less cluttered but ~/.config becomes VERY cluttered!
>> Nothing prevents from making appdirs in .config too.
>>
> True, but then .config would just become cluttered with .appdirs instead!

It wouldn't become any more or less cluttered than ~/ now...


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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC Package name additions

[Jakub Moc]

Carsten Lohrke napsal(a):
> The additional postfix is reserved exclusively for user local ebuilds, not 
> for 
> the ones provided by us.

Such as media-sound/alsa-driver-1.0.14_rc2_p3234 ? :)

Anyway, if you have better ideas, move them to Bug 166522; multiple
suffixes are definitely needed, just should be restricted to sane combos.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC Package name additions

[Jakub Moc]

Miroslav Šulc (fordfrog) napsal(a):
> According to
> http://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/file-format/index.html#file-naming-rules
> it seems to me the versioning is focused on package stability life
> cycle. In netbeans case it is _prealpha and definitely not stable
> patched release. So _alpha is the closest one to current netbeans 6.0
> life cycle phase, though not accurate.

Actually stuff like cat/pkg-1.2_alpha3_pre4 is valid now and honored by
portage; dunno how does that fit the netbeans upstream scheme, though.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?

[Jakub Moc]

Stephen Becker napsal(a):
> On 3/15/07, Jakub Moc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Yeah indeed, lets get the facts straight and let's see who did behave
>> like an asshole:
>>
>> http://bugs.gentoo.org/attachment.cgi?id=110676&action=view
> 
> Indeed both of us were assholes that day, I never denied that.  The
> difference is, Diego was being an asshole to somebody who was merely
> trying to test packages in a manner consistent with his training as an
> arch dev.  I was being an asshole to Diego for being an asshole.

No, Diego asked to not keyword an obsolete KDE meta version ~mips
because we all know the history with MIPS keywording and lingering stale
crap in portage; also because it's completely unneeded for KDE support
on mips and also because it'd create a huge and pointless maintenance
overhead for already understaffed KDE team. That definitely doesn't
qualify as 'being an asshole', it was a legitimate maintainer's request
based on long-term experience with mips team.

>> Indeed, so eroyf was told to stop screwing up, he just didn't get it
>> (apparently neither did you, for that matter). And don't start this
>> 'mips needs more babysitting' nonsense here again, please.
> 
> You really need to stop putting words in people's mouths.  That makes
> you an asshole without reason, and now I'm being an asshole to you
> because you are being an asshole.  In other words, shut up and take
> your bullshit FUD about the mips team out of this discussion, and go
> wrangle some bugs.

I'm not putting anything in anyone's mouth, and I'd suggest that you
wash your mouth before further posting to this mailing list, your
vocabulary is kinda ridiculous.

Plus, everyone can read the babysitting history on the relevant
keywording bug (yeah if anyone wonders, kdelibs still unkeyworded about
5 months after the bug has been filed).


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?

[Jakub Moc]

Stephen Becker napsal(a):
> First of all, get your facts straight.  The bugzilla incident of which
> you speak happened before all of this.  Second of all, the language is
> irrelevant.  Point is, he was acting like an asshole to somebody , so
> he got abused in return.

Yeah indeed, lets get the facts straight and let's see who did behave
like an asshole:

http://bugs.gentoo.org/attachment.cgi?id=110676&action=view

>> > I would still react loudly to folks pulling a similar stunt now that I
>> > *am* retired.
>> Hopefully not in the same manner.
> 
> Sometimes people need to be bluntly told to stop screwing up.

Indeed, so eroyf was told to stop screwing up, he just didn't get it
(apparently neither did you, for that matter). And don't start this
'mips needs more babysitting' nonsense here again, please.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo's problems

[Jakub Moc]

Wernfried Haas napsal(a):
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 09:58:50PM +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> Sunrise is the canonical example. Also consider the way the forums are
>> being run (like it or not, the forums are taken by many to be
>> representative of Gentoo's user base)...
> 
> Drop your theories about the forums from this list please, it's
> really far OT and creating a quite unproductive atmosphere.
> 
> Thanks,
>   Wernfried
> 

And do the same about Sunrise, these unfounded attacks really serve no
good purpose, there's noone promoting ricing on Sunrise project.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Something positive! (was Re: Client-serve flags (again ;))

[Jakub Moc]

[snip]

   __  __   _    _ ___    _
|__  / _ \|  \/  |/ ___| | / ___|_   _/ _ \|  _ \| |
  / / | | | |\/| | |  _| | \___ \ | || | | | |_) | |
 / /| |_| | |  | | |_| |_|  ___) || || |_| |  __/|_|
/\___/|_|  |_|\(_) |/ |_| \___/|_|   (_)


*everyone* please stop flooding my mailbox with such junk, *NOW*. Move
this gay debate to /dev/null or create yourself a gentoo-chat mailing
list, but stop polluting a development ML with this noise already.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Little respect towards Daniel please

[Jakub Moc]

Bryan Østergaard napsal(a):
> On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 03:46:47AM +0100, Jakub Moc wrote:
>> And you come here to tell us that people shouldn't get confused by these
>> 'very few' retirements, that the sun in still shining nicely and we are
>> recruiting people as always? And that you will continue silently
>> watching the trolls team associated around mips and ciaranm call people
>> fuckheads, idiots and making a gutter of something that's supposed to be
>> a development mailing list?

> Never said anything like that.

So, what are you planning to do about this? Sorry, but all I've seen
here so far is evading the real problem and saying people they should
ignore ciaranm and alikes. This apparently doesn't work, any other plan?

Like, any plan to make the mips team totally poisoned by ciaranm's
stupid elitism and infallibleness behave in a civilized way again? Any
plan to make -dev ML a productive place for development again? Sorry,
ignorance is not a boon, as proved by this thread and many others in the
past.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Little respect towards Daniel please

[Jakub Moc]

Bryan Østergaard napsal(a):
> On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 11:31:56PM +, Hubert Mercier wrote:
>> What is more, even if Gentoo is always growing, why are people leaving ? 
>> Personal reasons ? No, in fact I read carefully each of the retire mails 
>> in the last year : very often people are just fed up with conflicts, 
>> tired of people just slacking around, etc.. Are these last counted in 
>> "growing dev base" ? IMHO, Gentoo need a large rethinking of its internal 
>> structure, and, what is more, a rethinking of its recruitement process. 
>> But I remember that this point has already been discussed ?
>>
> Please don't base your entire opinion on those very few retirement
> announcements you've seen. Most devs that retire simply run out of time
> for gentoo due to real life commitments etc. or move on to other open
> source projects.
> 
> Regards,
> Bryan Østergaard

OK, let me get this straight... You are suggesting here that we are not
losing enough developers for devrel/userrel to be bothered enough to
start caring about WTH is going wrong here?

Sure, after Flameeyes left we have pam + alsa pretty much unmaintained,
we've lost a key KDE + sound apps developer + BSD lead; next we've lost
metalgod who was a member of already pretty understaffed Gnome herd, one
of 3 members of media-optical herd and sounds apps maintainer as well.
Then a developer and founder of this distribution who rejoined just
about a week ago ran away, scared when seeing the state of things.
That's just for the past month.

And you come here to tell us that people shouldn't get confused by these
'very few' retirements, that the sun in still shining nicely and we are
recruiting people as always? And that you will continue silently
watching the trolls team associated around mips and ciaranm call people
fuckheads, idiots and making a gutter of something that's supposed to be
a development mailing list?

Ugh... well done.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Some council topics for March meeting

[Jakub Moc]

bret curtis napsal(a):
> No, you sir, should not be here.
> 
> I've been a 'developer' since before you left us for Microsoft. I've
> read the -dev and -core since that time, only chiming in from time to
> time but this frankly is crazy.

This sniplet was brought to you by the almighty Flaming Guide [1]:


Another way to handle things is with experience. Come up to the plate
with your 10 years work and bash them down with it!

Code listing 1.5: Experience

email: I've been doing this for 10 years, so even though your logic is
sound, shutup!


[1] http://dev.gentoo.org/~chriswhite/docs/flame.html


> Ciaranm never left, but was forced out by idiots

Well done, nice insult of lots of people. Really helpful.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Some council topics for March meeting

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 00:08:40 +0100 Jakub Moc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Erm, to be precise here, noone has removed any ciaranm's attributions
>> from devmanual, they've all been moved to the end of the document
>> originally, so that people wouldn't be forced to scroll across one
>> page worth of contributors to get to the actual content of devmanual.
> 
> Nnope. All credits except for one name (of someone whose
> contributions were limited to a few sentences) were removed from the
> front page entirely, completely in violation of the licence.

Erm yes, you wanted bigger fonts on a front page, already said that
multiple times (plus everyone can read the bug). Noone removed any
credits from the doc itself, they were moved to a different place for
the reason I've stated above.

Stop this already, we've been thru this once and that's been really
enough, I fail to see why are you bringing up this issue here again and
abusing it for completely false generalisations (as quoted by seemant in
his mail).


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Some council topics for March meeting

[Jakub Moc]

Seemant Kulleen napsal(a):
> On Sat, 2007-03-03 at 07:32 +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>> I'm also curious as to why people should be expected to assign
>> copyright to a group that is known for licence violations and removing
>> attribution from documents. How does this protect anything?
> 
> Yeah, you cry foul when people paint you with an overly broad brush.  Is
> it known?  As far as I remember, the issue was acknowledged when brought
> up, and then fixed.  The issue hasn't come up again with your docs. It
> hasn't come up with any other thing.

Erm, to be precise here, noone has removed any ciaranm's attributions
from devmanual, they've all been moved to the end of the document
originally, so that people wouldn't be forced to scroll across one page
worth of contributors to get to the actual content of devmanual.

And of course this was a great occasion to start screaming about license
violation and demand bigger fonts on devmanual frontpage. [1]

As said, grow up.


[1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=150231#c5

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Little respect towards Daniel please

[Jakub Moc]

Alexander Færøy napsal(a):

On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 09:51:34PM +, Stuart Herbert wrote:

What do you plan on doing next with your time?


How cute, but please take this in private and not in the list. Honestly,
we do not care...


I certainly do care - more than I could ever care about all the 
'valuable input' provided so kindly here by ciaranm, which is so 
valuable that it has cost us two developers in two days.



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Manifest2 Transition -- remaining packages

[Jakub Moc]

Markus Ullmann napsal(a):
> So after peper and myself have been on fixing most stuff related to this
> topic yesterday, here now is a list with remaining packages and their
> respective maintainers.
> 
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~jokey/manifest2/manifest2-20070222.txt
> 
> Greetz
> Jokey

app-antivirus/vlnx is package.masked for security.

x11-drivers/mtxdrivers-pro has Bug 165898 filed for removal, it cannot
be fixed because the tarball doesn't exist upstream and is generally
fubared; please remove it from the tree.

Also,

# Stuart Herbert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (05 Mar 2006)
# Upstream have pulled the binaries
=net-misc/nxserver-personal-1.3*
=net-misc/nxserver-personal-1.4*
=net-misc/nxserver-business-1.3*
=net-misc/nxserver-business-1.4*
=net-misc/nxserver-enterprise-1.3*
=net-misc/nxserver-enterprise-1.4*

should be removed from the tree, no way to fix the manifests.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] custom-cflags global USE

[Jakub Moc]

Danny van Dyk napsal(a):
> What about making custom-cflags default in the base profile?

Uhm? Maybe re-read the description of the flags? It's unsupported and
breaks stuff, that's why the use flag exists...



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Re: [gentoo-dev] no binaries amarok-1.4.5 !

[Jakub Moc]

Mohammed Hagag napsal(a):
> amarok-1.4.5 doesn't install any thing except the .po files when
> emerging without the kde USE flag, is this normal ?

No, it's not normal, and no, this is not a proper place. We have
bugzilla for such things (see Bug 167536).



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Re: [gentoo-dev] A Gentle Reminder

[Jakub Moc]

Matti Bickel napsal(a):
> How about cc'ing arches, which are affected by this? You still get your
> point across and maybe arches move it up their priority list if they see
> a removal "b/c of centuries old vulnerabilities".

I did CC mips, and did write that it needs version x.y.z stabilized
first. Sorry, enough babysitting here, either devs can read or they
shouldn't have commit access.

Period.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] A Gentle Reminder

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 21:33:59 +0100 Jakub Moc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | So, what are you blaming me for here? Grrr.
> 
> Misassigning or premature filing, as you prefer.

Oh sure... Next time, blame me for Sept 11, keep amusing us by your
bullshit.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] A Gentle Reminder

[Jakub Moc]

Alexander Færøy napsal(a):
> Hi,
> 
> On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 07:50:02PM +0100, Jakub Moc wrote:
>> Eh? Why should I stop filing bugs about stale vulnerable cruft? Should
>> it stay in the tree forever (unless some $we_all_know_which_arch dev
>> wakes up by miracle and moves)?
> 
> If you give away enough usable information, then sure.
> 
> Though! We have seen that, for example in bug #164182[1], that you filled
> ended up in a removal of the latest stable version of imagemagick on
> MIPS.

Pardon me, but this is *really* too much.


Please, remove the above once 6.3.0.5 has been stabilized on mips.
Thanks. :)


So, what are you blaming me for here? Grrr.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] A Gentle Reminder

[Jakub Moc]

Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
> | Screaming? WTF really. What's misleading about listing vulnerable
> | versions and asking for their removal?
> 
> They can't be removed yet. Stop filing bugs telling people to do so.

Eh? Why should I stop filing bugs about stale vulnerable cruft? Should
it stay in the tree forever (unless some $we_all_know_which_arch dev
wakes up by miracle and moves)?

> Believe it or not, Jakub, some maintainers still trust you. They expect
> your bugs to be accurate. You and I know that this is highly silly, but
> enough people act upon what you tell them to do that stuff gets broken
> on a regular basis.

Oh, there's nothing like attacking someone for someone else's fault.
Won't waste my time on your trollish rants any more.


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