Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-12 Thread Roy Bamford
On 2010.04.09 07:34, Duncan wrote:
 Patrick Nagel posted on Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:42:40 +0800 as excerpted:
[snip]

 Likewise, Gentoo's uncomfortable officially linking to something they 
 don't control in any way, shape, or form (except to the extent that 
 we could arguably pull his domain name for trademark reasons, if 
 things got ugly enough, tho that'd be incredibly bad for EVERYONE, 
 so nobody wants to go there!).
 
[snip]

 -- 
 Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
 Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
 and if you use the program, he is your master.  Richard Stallman
 

Last time I looked, his about page complies with our trade mark 
requirements.

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-12 Thread Ben de Groot
On 12 April 2010 12:28, Roy Bamford neddyseag...@gentoo.org wrote:

 Last time I looked, his about page complies with our trade mark
 requirements.

But ONLY his about page. Our name and logo guidelines state this needs
to happen on each page:

 the website clearly states, on each page, that the project is no official 
 Gentoo project by labelling itself as a news site, fan site, unofficial 
 site or community site

See http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/name-logo.xml

Instead it labels itself as the Gentoo Wiki or the Gentoo Linux
Wiki, suggesting to somebody who is unaware of the situation that it
is an official project.

-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-12 Thread George Prowse

On 12/04/2010 12:32, Ben de Groot wrote:

On 12 April 2010 12:28, Roy Bamfordneddyseag...@gentoo.org  wrote:


Last time I looked, his about page complies with our trade mark
requirements.


But ONLY his about page. Our name and logo guidelines state this needs
to happen on each page:


the website clearly states, on each page, that the project is no official Gentoo project by labelling itself as a 
news site, fan site, unofficial site or community site


See http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/name-logo.xml

Instead it labels itself as the Gentoo Wiki or the Gentoo Linux
Wiki, suggesting to somebody who is unaware of the situation that it
is an official project.

If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are 
wrong. Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is 
to help Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of 
Apple-like litigation when trying to protect it's logo.




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-12 Thread Arun Raghavan
On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
 If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong.
 Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help
 Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like
 litigation when trying to protect it's logo.

I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if
perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light.

-- 
Arun Raghavan
http://arunraghavan.net/
(Ford_Prefect | Gentoo)  (arunsr | GNOME)



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-12 Thread George Prowse

On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote:

On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com  wrote:
[...]

If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong.
Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help
Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like
litigation when trying to protect it's logo.


I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if
perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light.


There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-12 Thread Arun Raghavan
On 12 April 2010 18:49, George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote:

 On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com  wrote:
 [...]

 If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong.
 Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help
 Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like
 litigation when trying to protect it's logo.

 I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if
 perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light.

 There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise

Which the Wiki team should really be addressing before making a
world-editable wiki.
-- 
Arun Raghavan
http://arunraghavan.net/
(Ford_Prefect | Gentoo)  (arunsr | GNOME)



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-12 Thread George Prowse

On 12/04/2010 14:22, Arun Raghavan wrote:

On 12 April 2010 18:49, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com  wrote:

On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote:


On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.comwrote:
[...]


If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong.
Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help
Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like
litigation when trying to protect it's logo.


I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if
perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light.


There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise


Which the Wiki team should really be addressing before making a
world-editable wiki.


A simple warning should suffice:

While the Gentoo community takes a large amount of care to keep the 
wiki's information correct, problems like deprecation of features, 
misinformed users and vandalism can and will always be a problem with 
the wiki format. If you see a problem please feel free to fix it, notify 
a member of the developer team or send an email to w...@gentoo.org


Also adding a notice like Gentoo takes no responsibility for when you 
b0rk your box by setting the wrong CTARGET somewhere would be good.


Those two should cover all the bases.



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-12 Thread Ben de Groot
On 12 April 2010 15:22, Arun Raghavan ford_pref...@gentoo.org wrote:
 On 12 April 2010 18:49, George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote:

 On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com  wrote:
 [...]

 If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong.
 Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help
 Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like
 litigation when trying to protect it's logo.

 I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if
 perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light.

 There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise

 Which the Wiki team should really be addressing before making a
 world-editable wiki.

If you're talking about the offical wiki, we are addressing that
problem. If you are talking about the unofficial one, I can only
agree.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-12 Thread Dale

Ben de Groot wrote:

On 12 April 2010 15:22, Arun Raghavanford_pref...@gentoo.org  wrote:
   

On 12 April 2010 18:49, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com  wrote:
 

On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote:
   

On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.comwrote:
[...]
 

If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong.
Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help
Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like
litigation when trying to protect it's logo.
   

I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if
perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light.

 

There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise
   

Which the Wiki team should really be addressing before making a
world-editable wiki.
 

If you're talking about the offical wiki, we are addressing that
problem. If you are talking about the unofficial one, I can only
agree.

Cheers,
   


Just to add two cents worth.  I rarely, very rarely, go to the 
unofficial Gentoo wiki.  To put it simply, its not supported by the 
Gentoo organization itself.  When it comes to my system, I want people 
that I know use Gentoo and understand how it works or that the info is 
from the official Gentoo Docs.


I may be able to contribute to the official Gentoo wiki when the need 
arises but I doubt I would ever do that on the current unofficial wiki.


Just my two cents worth for the day.  Back to my hole.

Dale

:-)  :-)



[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-12 Thread Duncan
George Prowse posted on Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:13:31 +0100 as excerpted:

 If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are
 wrong. Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is
 to help Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of
 Apple-like litigation when trying to protect it's logo.

... Which was basically my point, up-thread.  Gentoo has trademarks and 
etc, and if it decided to go Apple (or nuclear, the term I'd have used) 
on the unofficial wiki (among other sites), it could.  But that'd be a 
very bad situation for everyone involved, not just for the wiki, but for 
Gentoo as well.

Other than that, Gentoo doesn't control the independent and unofficial 
gentoo-wiki, and thus doesn't feel comfortable linking to it.  Quite 
reasonable, I think.

Actually, this whole sub-thread about whether they're abiding by the 
current policy or not, then, wasn't my intent, and was in fact entirely 
unexpected.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master.  Richard Stallman




[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-12 Thread Duncan
Dale posted on Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:47:50 -0500 as excerpted:

 Just to add two cents worth.  I rarely, very rarely, go to the
 unofficial Gentoo wiki.  To put it simply, its not supported by the
 Gentoo organization itself.  When it comes to my system, I want people
 that I know use Gentoo and understand how it works or that the info is
 from the official Gentoo Docs.
 
 I may be able to contribute to the official Gentoo wiki when the need
 arises but I doubt I would ever do that on the current unofficial wiki.
 
 Just my two cents worth for the day.  Back to my hole.

Really, the same here, altho I appreciated them when I got my netbook, and 
wanted to put Gentoo on it.  Unfortunately, that's about the time the site 
did its disappearing act, and most of the information I could Google, etc, 
pointed back to the wiki that wasn't there any more! =:^(

But the Arch-Linux forum thread and then wiki came to the rescue, tho I 
had to adapt some of what it said a bit more.  And the gentoo-wiki page is 
back up, now, tho I'm not sure how it compares to what was there before 
the off-lining.

But I'm more a newsgroups and mailing list person, not so comfortable with 
web forums or wikis.  Perhaps that'll change with an official Gentoo wiki, 
perhaps not, but that's why I've not volunteered for it tho I support the 
idea.  I don't want to pledge to help and then never get the properly 
rounded tuit.  Better to discover that tuit by accident, and be there, 
then pledge to be there, and not.

But I did REALLY miss them with the netbook info, that's for sure, and I 
definitely appreciate both the Gentoo wiki (after its return) and the Arch 
wiki for the info I was able to use, even more since it wasn't available 
for awhile!

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master.  Richard Stallman




[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-09 Thread Duncan
Patrick Nagel posted on Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:42:40 +0800 as excerpted:

 On 2010-04-08 19:51 UTC Ryan Hill wrote:
 
 why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already
 exists? it seems like a complete duplication of effort.  i'm not saying
 don't do it, i'm just baffled why we would.
 
 Well, one reason could be, that the unofficial one lost its whole
 database once, and there were other multiple multi-day outages in the
 past. I expect an official Wiki to have a reasonable availability and
 not losing most of the content, breaking links all over the net for
 months.

In addition to that, various invitations have been and I expect will 
continue to be made, to the guy running the current wiki.  For whatever 
reason(s), he doesn't seem particularly interested in running an official 
Gentoo wiki.

In some ways I can't say I blame him.  There's a lot of politics that goes 
into anything Gentoo-official, and it's perfectly sane for someone to love 
Gentoo but have no interest whatsoever in jumping thru all those political 
hoops he'd ultimately have to jump thru, or being the political pawn the 
wiki could likely be if it's as popular and useful as people hope.

Likewise, Gentoo's uncomfortable officially linking to something they 
don't control in any way, shape, or form (except to the extent that we 
could arguably pull his domain name for trademark reasons, if things got 
ugly enough, tho that'd be incredibly bad for EVERYONE, so nobody wants to 
go there!).

Regardless of how justified or not those reasons are, they exist, and are 
a practical barrier to the current wiki and owner becoming the official 
one.  Yet the feeling is, and I as a Gentoo power user agree, we need a 
wiki that we can officially point to, a place for documentation that 
hasn't made it thru the formal Gentoo-doc and GuideXML process, and may in 
fact never rise to that level, but is still valuable.

Also, there's the licensing issue.  The current wiki has a non-commercial 
clause for its content licensing that doesn't seem appropriate for an 
official Gentoo wiki.  And no one except the individual content 
contributors can change that, so practically speaking, a new wiki without 
that clause is needed.  Individual contributors can copy their own content 
over, of course, and other content can be rewritten, but the content 
cannot be wholesale transferred, nor will it be.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master.  Richard Stallman




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-09 Thread Guy Fontaine
There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my 
knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a 
Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be.

My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for 
debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like 
I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people.

I have a French wiki to maintain, Gentoo-Québec's one, and I also have to help 
people by answering their questions on Gentoo-Québec forum. I think my real 
place is there.

Regards,

Guy Fontaine (aramis_qc)

On Fri, 09 Apr 2010 00:38:53 +
Sylvain Alain d2_rac...@hotmail.com wrote:

 
 Indeed, that's why I don't want to have a wiki for devs only. The Gentoo wiki 
 must be for the community and by the community :P
 
 There are many Gentoo experts that don't want to be officially devs.
 
 d2_racing
 
 
  To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
  From: dirtye...@gentoo.org
  Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
  Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 16:55:36 -0600
  
  On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 21:37:46 +
  Sylvain Alain d2_rac...@hotmail.com wrote:
  
   
   The official wiki can be use by powerusers who want to write some pretty 
   good doc.
   
   A lot of powerusers can write excellent doc on the gentoo forum right 
   now, so they don't need to by Gentoo Dev to right excellent stuff.
   
   I don't see your point.
  
  They already write great stuff on http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/.  I think 
  having
  two different places to put this kind of stuff might split the contributor
  base.  It'd be nice if we could either merge the two or make the official
  wiki about developing with Gentoo rather than how to use Gentoo, but in any
  case I'm just happy to have somewhere to stick things.
  
  
  -- 
  fonts,by design, by neglect
  gcc-porting,  for a fact or just for effect
  wxwidgets @ gentoo EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662
 
 _
 Live connected. Get Hotmail  Messenger on your phone.
 http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724462

-- 
Guy Fontaine guy.fonta...@videotron.qc.ca



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-09 Thread Maciej Mrozowski
On Friday 09 of April 2010 13:26:16 Guy Fontaine wrote:
 There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my
 knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a
 Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be.
 
 My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for
 debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel
 like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected
 people.
 
 I have a French wiki to maintain, Gentoo-Québec's one, and I also have to
 help people by answering their questions on Gentoo-Québec forum. I think
 my real place is there.

See? This is the problem. Every time comes an initiative to introduce official 
Gentoo infra hosted Gentoo Wiki (yes, the one that won't loose randomly all 
its contents) - there's lack of interest of cooperation from already existing 
unofficial Gentoo-related Wiki admins.

And of course it's always Gentoo devs who are to blame for creating 
duplicated effort instead of normalizing current situation.

Btw, you should only care for opinion of Gentoo Wiki project members, which 
are listed there - http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/wiki/

cheers

-- 
regards
MM



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-09 Thread Ben de Groot
On 9 April 2010 13:26, Guy Fontaine guy.fonta...@videotron.qc.ca wrote:
 There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my 
 knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a 
 Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be.

 My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for 
 debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel 
 like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people.

Don't be dismayed by negative remarks, or a few naysayers who are not
even part of the Gentoo Wiki Project. Any user (or dev) with
constructive input is welcome. And as you volunteered, you are part of
the project.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-09 Thread Ben de Groot
On 9 April 2010 14:35, Maciej Mrozowski reave...@gmail.com wrote:
 See? This is the problem. Every time comes an initiative to introduce official
 Gentoo infra hosted Gentoo Wiki (yes, the one that won't loose randomly all
 its contents) - there's lack of interest of cooperation from already existing
 unofficial Gentoo-related Wiki admins.

You are quite wrong here, as Guy was one of the first to volunteer for
the official wiki project. It is the bickering about its status that
apparently has demotivated him.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-09 Thread Nirbheek Chauhan
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote:
 On 9 April 2010 14:35, Maciej Mrozowski reave...@gmail.com wrote:
 See? This is the problem. Every time comes an initiative to introduce 
 official
 Gentoo infra hosted Gentoo Wiki (yes, the one that won't loose randomly all
 its contents) - there's lack of interest of cooperation from already existing
 unofficial Gentoo-related Wiki admins.

 You are quite wrong here, as Guy was one of the first to volunteer for
 the official wiki project. It is the bickering about its status that
 apparently has demotivated him.


I think at this point you've got the opinions of everyone, and pretty
much everyone's needs have been stated. Any more discussion will only
distract you and use up time and energy. I say ignore all further
discussion on this thread unless you feel it's *really* important.
Everything else not from the team is just bikeshedding I think :)

-- 
~Nirbheek Chauhan

Gentoo GNOME+Mozilla Team



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-09 Thread George Prowse

On 09/04/2010 13:38, Ben de Groot wrote:

On 9 April 2010 13:26, Guy Fontaineguy.fonta...@videotron.qc.ca  wrote:

There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my 
knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a 
Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be.

My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for 
debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like 
I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people.


Don't be dismayed by negative remarks, or a few naysayers who are not
even part of the Gentoo Wiki Project. Any user (or dev) with
constructive input is welcome. And as you volunteered, you are part of
the project.

Cheers,


I still dont understand people's problems with this. Several devs have 
said they've wanted one for years, it would be a great place to review 
documentation before going in the official documentation, it's a great 
place to discuss and collaborate on future dev handbook pages.


The official wiki could and *should* work together with the unofficial 
wiki because they complement eachother. The unofficial wiki isn't going 
to want detailed OpenRC documentation and the official wiki isn't going 
to want how to set up FreeDOOM on it.




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-09 Thread Zeerak Mustafa Waseem
On Fri, Apr 09, 2010 at 06:02:40PM +0100, George Prowse wrote:
 On 09/04/2010 13:38, Ben de Groot wrote:
  On 9 April 2010 13:26, Guy Fontaineguy.fonta...@videotron.qc.ca  wrote:
  There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my 
  knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a 
  Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be.
 
  My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for 
  debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel 
  like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected 
  people.
 
  Don't be dismayed by negative remarks, or a few naysayers who are not
  even part of the Gentoo Wiki Project. Any user (or dev) with
  constructive input is welcome. And as you volunteered, you are part of
  the project.
 
  Cheers,
 
 I still dont understand people's problems with this. Several devs have 
 said they've wanted one for years, it would be a great place to review 
 documentation before going in the official documentation, it's a great 
 place to discuss and collaborate on future dev handbook pages.
 
 The official wiki could and *should* work together with the unofficial 
 wiki because they complement eachother. The unofficial wiki isn't going 
 to want detailed OpenRC documentation and the official wiki isn't going 
 to want how to set up FreeDOOM on it.
 

Really? I understood it as the wiki being an all-purposes wiki, meaning users 
could (would and should) create articles on how to get some application running 
or how to get some setting working, and the developers will have their own 
section, so to speak, where they can collaborate on various projects where a 
wiki would be an asset.
It seems to me from the discussion here on the list that it is to centralize 
documentation (- the official docs), so that gentoo can point to the wiki and 
say If it's not in our docs, maybe it's in the wiki.

I may have mistaken the actual purpose of the wiki, but then by all means, 
correct me :-)

-- 
Zeerak Waseem


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Description: PGP signature


Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-09 Thread AllenJB
On 09/04/10 18:24, Zeerak Mustafa Waseem wrote:
 Really? I understood it as the wiki being an all-purposes wiki, meaning users 
 could (would and should) create articles on how to get some application 
 running or how to get some setting working, and the developers will have 
 their own section, so to speak, where they can collaborate on various 
 projects where a wiki would be an asset.
 It seems to me from the discussion here on the list that it is to centralize 
 documentation (- the official docs), so that gentoo can point to the wiki and 
 say If it's not in our docs, maybe it's in the wiki.
 
 I may have mistaken the actual purpose of the wiki, but then by all means, 
 correct me :-)
 
It has no purpose. The official wiki currently has no rules and no
mission statement. There's been no activity for 3 days.

...in which time the unofficial wiki got countless edits in many
languages. And my server downloaded backups 3 times (because we have a
public backup policy in place to ensure the content is never lost again
- something some people seem to like ignoring (or are just ignorant of)).

AllenJB



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-09 Thread George Prowse

On 09/04/2010 18:24, Zeerak Mustafa Waseem wrote:

On Fri, Apr 09, 2010 at 06:02:40PM +0100, George Prowse wrote:

On 09/04/2010 13:38, Ben de Groot wrote:

On 9 April 2010 13:26, Guy Fontaineguy.fonta...@videotron.qc.ca   wrote:

There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my 
knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a 
Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be.

My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for 
debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like 
I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people.


Don't be dismayed by negative remarks, or a few naysayers who are not
even part of the Gentoo Wiki Project. Any user (or dev) with
constructive input is welcome. And as you volunteered, you are part of
the project.

Cheers,


I still dont understand people's problems with this. Several devs have
said they've wanted one for years, it would be a great place to review
documentation before going in the official documentation, it's a great
place to discuss and collaborate on future dev handbook pages.

The official wiki could and *should* work together with the unofficial
wiki because they complement eachother. The unofficial wiki isn't going
to want detailed OpenRC documentation and the official wiki isn't going
to want how to set up FreeDOOM on it.



Really? I understood it as the wiki being an all-purposes wiki, meaning users could 
(would and should) create articles on how to get some application running or how to get 
some setting working, and the developers will have their own section, so to 
speak, where they can collaborate on various projects where a wiki would be an asset.
It seems to me from the discussion here on the list that it is to centralize 
documentation (- the official docs), so that gentoo can point to the wiki and say 
If it's not in our docs, maybe it's in the wiki.

I may have mistaken the actual purpose of the wiki, but then by all means, 
correct me :-)

I see it as a collaboration piece, something to bridge the gap between 
developers and users. Users can create pages detailing certain facets of 
Gentoo and it may get to be included in the documentation on gentoo.org.


Some documentation is unfit for an official wiki but that doesn't mean 
that the information doesn't need to be there for users, that is where 
the official and unofficial wiki should work together .




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-09 Thread Ben de Groot
Allen, if you don't have anything constructive to add, then please
refrain from adding to this thread.

Thanks,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-09 Thread Mike Pagano
Here's one possible use-case.

For me, I would consider moving 
http://dev.gentoo.org/~mpagano/genpatches/index.htm to the official wiki so 
that other people in the kernel herd can update it.

If the updating could be scripted, of course.

I would not have considered it for an unofficial wiki running on nonGentoo 
infrastructure. We've been looking for a new 'home' for awhile. [1]

[1]http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176186

---
Mike Pagano
Gentoo Developer - Kernel Project
E-Mail : mpag...@gentoo.org
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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-08 Thread Ryan Hill
On Mon, 5 Apr 2010 20:12:49 +0200
Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote:

 After the mostly positive feedback on the recent wiki discussion, we
 have now gone ahead, formed a preliminary team consisting of both
 users and developers, and put up a project page [1]. All constructive
 feedback on this new project is welcome.

why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists?  it
seems like a complete duplication of effort.  i'm not saying don't do it, i'm
just baffled why we would.

 - moderation

can we can lock certain pages down to dev edits only?  i'd like to
document some of our policies/best practices that don't seem to be in
writing anywhere (after vetting them on the list of course).


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-08 Thread Ben de Groot
On 8 April 2010 21:51, Ryan Hill dirtye...@gentoo.org wrote:
 why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists?

Because some devs request things like this:

 can we can lock certain pages down to dev edits only?

In our wiki we will be able to.

Cheers,
-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Qt project lead developer
Gentoo Wiki project lead



[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-08 Thread Ryan Hill
On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:13:07 +0200
Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote:

 On 8 April 2010 21:51, Ryan Hill dirtye...@gentoo.org wrote:
  why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists?
 
 Because some devs request things like this:
 
  can we can lock certain pages down to dev edits only?
 
 In our wiki we will be able to.

you misunderstood me.  i've wanted a dev wiki for years.  i just don't see why
it should also be promoted as a user wiki when one already exists.


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RE: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-08 Thread Sylvain Alain

The official wiki can be use by powerusers who want to write some pretty good 
doc.

A lot of powerusers can write excellent doc on the gentoo forum right now, so 
they don't need to by Gentoo Dev to right excellent stuff.

I don't see your point.





 To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
 From: dirtye...@gentoo.org
 Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:56:04 -0600
 
 On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:13:07 +0200
 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote:
 
  On 8 April 2010 21:51, Ryan Hill dirtye...@gentoo.org wrote:
   why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists?
  
  Because some devs request things like this:
  
   can we can lock certain pages down to dev edits only?
  
  In our wiki we will be able to.
 
 you misunderstood me.  i've wanted a dev wiki for years.  i just don't see why
 it should also be promoted as a user wiki when one already exists.
 
 
 -- 
 fonts,by design, by neglect
 gcc-porting,  for a fact or just for effect
 wxwidgets @ gentoo EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662
  
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[gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-08 Thread Ryan Hill
On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 21:37:46 +
Sylvain Alain d2_rac...@hotmail.com wrote:

 
 The official wiki can be use by powerusers who want to write some pretty good 
 doc.
 
 A lot of powerusers can write excellent doc on the gentoo forum right now, so 
 they don't need to by Gentoo Dev to right excellent stuff.
 
 I don't see your point.

They already write great stuff on http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/.  I think having
two different places to put this kind of stuff might split the contributor
base.  It'd be nice if we could either merge the two or make the official
wiki about developing with Gentoo rather than how to use Gentoo, but in any
case I'm just happy to have somewhere to stick things.


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RE: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-08 Thread Sylvain Alain

Indeed, that's why I don't want to have a wiki for devs only. The Gentoo wiki 
must be for the community and by the community :P

There are many Gentoo experts that don't want to be officially devs.

d2_racing


 To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
 From: dirtye...@gentoo.org
 Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 16:55:36 -0600
 
 On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 21:37:46 +
 Sylvain Alain d2_rac...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
  
  The official wiki can be use by powerusers who want to write some pretty 
  good doc.
  
  A lot of powerusers can write excellent doc on the gentoo forum right now, 
  so they don't need to by Gentoo Dev to right excellent stuff.
  
  I don't see your point.
 
 They already write great stuff on http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/.  I think having
 two different places to put this kind of stuff might split the contributor
 base.  It'd be nice if we could either merge the two or make the official
 wiki about developing with Gentoo rather than how to use Gentoo, but in any
 case I'm just happy to have somewhere to stick things.
 
 
 -- 
 fonts,by design, by neglect
 gcc-porting,  for a fact or just for effect
 wxwidgets @ gentoo EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662
  
_
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-08 Thread Patrick Nagel
Hi,

On 2010-04-08 19:51 UTC Ryan Hill wrote:
 On Mon, 5 Apr 2010 20:12:49 +0200
 
 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote:
  After the mostly positive feedback on the recent wiki discussion, we
  have now gone ahead, formed a preliminary team consisting of both
  users and developers, and put up a project page [1]. All constructive
  feedback on this new project is welcome.
 
 why are we setting up a user wiki when a very popular one already exists? 
 it seems like a complete duplication of effort.  i'm not saying don't do
 it, i'm just baffled why we would.

Well, one reason could be, that the unofficial one lost its whole database 
once, and there were other multiple multi-day outages in the past. I expect an 
official Wiki to have a reasonable availability and not losing most of the 
content, breaking links all over the net for months.

Patrick.

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