Also Peter,
The 'Perpetual Salt Fountain' is a great addition to any large scale algae
operation.
http://www.terrapub.co.jp/journals/JO/pdf/6003/60030563.pdf
*Deep seawater in the ocean contains a great deal of nutrients. Stommel et
al. have
proposed the notion of a “perpetual salt
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of fungi.
Thanks,
Michael
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Hi Folks,
The other approach to international cooperation with a common goal is to
devise commercial schemes which meet food production needs which also have
GE qualities. That opens up a number of seats at the table.
One area I've been researching is the propagation/harvesting of organic
David,
Here are a few links I pulled up from past discussions and posts on this
overall subject.
Deepwelling:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/geoengineering/eValFNH8IQY/lJNWKARxs88J
Further, the cultivation of algae, in conjunction with tubes, provides a
significant counter to DIC. No
Hi Folks,
Dr. Rau, thank you for the excellent papers. I recognize the paper Direct
electrolytic dissolution of silicate minerals for air CO2 mitigation and
carbon-negative H2 production as the work/concept you introduced to this
group a few years back and I'm glad to see it published. Solving
Greg,
What I'm struggling to weave together is a method which can address
food,fuel,fertilizer and environmental needs while keeping an eye on the
socioeconomic dynamics which brought us to this point. A meta concept which
can coordinate these fundamental needs and dynamics may be possible,
Hi Folks,
The search for a means to convert atmospheric (space capsule) CO2 into
carbohydrates goes back to the early Apollo development era, as far as I
know. Using CO2 as a food/fuel base has many obvious advantages and should
be investigated for use on a global scale.
The most efficient
Hi Folks,
If the need for a formalized and science backed GE advocacy is left
un-answered much longer, it may simply take GE off the table completely.
ETC pulls in over $1M of donations per year on this one issue and its staff
of journalist are well aware of the value in selling hype to those
In Andrew's opening post, the “The International Governance of Climate
Engineering”, held by The Institute for European Studies in Brussels on
June 28, shows that it made material reference to an *ETC
William,
Congratulations on your standing in the competition. I realize that you're
trying to present a broad concept and the technical details are a secondary
issue. However, I would like to offer a few technical suggestions for your
consideration.
*Commercial vs. Non-Commercial*
Your
Hi Folks,
Any debate over the speed of and/or effects of the Arctic methane release
appears to me to be as about as productive as debating the differentiation
between driving a car into a wall at 160kmph or 190kmph. Either way, it
will be catastrophic and we need to take immediate actions.
Clarification on zeolite/methane release:
No combustion needed for release. Temperature or pressure swings will
release the methane (per Dr. Smit). Temperature is tricky and so pressure
swings should be the focus of engineering for zeolite/methane processing.
Best,
Michael
On Tuesday,
I believe that Article 15 http://www.gdrc.org/u-gov/precaution-7.html of
the Rio Declaration provides the clearest thinking on this subject.
*In order to protect the environment, the precautionary approach shall be
widely applied by States according to their capabilities. Where there are
David et al.,
Has the question concerning the possible increase in PSC creation by SSI
been addressed? Sulfuric acid is the main condensate for PSCs and an
increase in PSCs would have significant adverse effects on already
dangerously warming polar regions. If this one issue can not be
Jim,
You left a comment on the video which states: ***The Convention for
Biological Diversity bans geoengineering. *I'm fairly confident that the
CBD has issued no such ban. If you can copy/paste/post the exact CBD
language which establishes a 'ban on GE', I would be grateful for the
Thanks Mick,
Yes, the Ban thing is becoming something of an urban legend. Here is how
I would deconstruct the key thinking: *in the absence of science based
(science
would not be absent), global (global what? Political, science, media
talking heads, The C**olbert Nation**?), transparent and
Hi Folks,
Regrettably, I can not read the full paper and can only offer up minor
comments/questions which might be covered in the full paper. The abstract
closes with: ***Carbon dioxide is involved, but is not determinative, in
the evolution of the 100,000-year glacial cycles.. *What is
Hi Folks,
I haven't been able to read beyond the abstract, yet Buck seems to be
giving us a foundational perspective as important as the Precautionary
Principle. Her statement of: ***The logic that shapes the geoengineering
research process could potentially influence social ecologies
Greg et al.,
A few weeks ago, I explored the use of *Cupriavidus
metallidurans*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralstonia_eutrophus
* *with the Arctic methane groups. Insulated bioreactors would make this
species useful in the Arctic ebullition fields. Also, I believe non Arctic
marine based
The use of BW in conjunction with microbes may to be worth looking at; as
the two can be deployed without conflict with each other and they both may
address dissolved CH4. The introduction of copepods to consume the microbes
may help keep things in balance as well as provide the local biota
approach than trying
to improve on biology. The biology just doesn't seem to be where the
problem lies.
A
On Aug 25, 2013 1:21 AM, Michael Hayes vogle...@gmail.comjavascript:
wrote:
The use of BW in conjunction with microbes may to be worth looking at; as
the two can be deployed without
Can anyone explain to me why the use of olivine, to adjust ocean pH and
thus increase natures CDR, should not be used? It does seem somewhat dirt
simple.
Also, here is an eye opener concerning the importance of maintaining
balance in the marine environment:
Otters and Climate
Mike et al.,
David Kieth let me know (through PM) that his group is trying to
incorporate the possible increase of PSCs, due to SSI, into their model.
The issues of PSC increases and ozone loss are both closely related to
atmospheric sulfur particulates.
If SSI is to be used, due to the
Mark,
It does come down to funding. Even simple ideation on this issue requires
researching well into the third and even forth level of effects and doing
so on multiple levels of 'context'. And, those doing that kind of work need
to be funded as this is an expensive 'hobby' for most folks
Ken,
You make a clear point on the* intent issue. *Large scale mariculture
operations, such as OMEGA concept (and even the Salter Wave Sink array),
highlight the importance of this issue.
When does a large surface installation go from a 'fish farm' to that of a
GE installation? If the
/geoengineering.
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Mark et al.,
I grew up along the Texas coast and can tell you that the geological
storage capacity for CO2 is...zero. Most, if not all, of the ground water
is highly contaminated due to past drilling (there is no closed-loop
system) and the brine. You will not see crop irrigation along the
Albert et. al.,
The degree of negative generalization which Dr. Shiva applies to GE and its
supporters is troubling. Attacking the supporters, as opposed to the
science, is simply unprofessional and highly counter productive. Such
rantings would not be tolerated coming from a freshman in
Subtropical ocean gyres, the areas being suggested for Ocean Iron
Fertilization (OIF) in this article and in particular their convergence
zones, are ideal for the large scale mariculture operations which use
nutricline waters. OIF and large scale mariculture, such as
Hello Rose,
I think it would be interesting to inject the concept of large scale
mariculture development into this debate. The NASA
OMEGAhttp://blog.marinexplore.com/nasa-omega-project-the-ocean-as-a-platform-for-biofuel/
proposal
is a good representative of the mariculture concept. Large
Jim,
You seem to be posturing yourself and your group as experts on the subject
and thus should be entitled to a place at the expert table. Over the years
your group appears to have done nothing *but* use the debate to raise money
to support your salaries and the publication of comically
to be in the beanie class of suggestions.
Best,
Micheal
On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Joan Martínez Alier
joan.martinez.al...@uab.cat wrote:
To Michael Hayes. Regarding the links between agriculture, food systems
and climate change.
The Via Campesina has campaigned (together
Hi Folks,
This type of coverage seems to ignore all other GE concepts which are not
as nearly as controversial. Clearly and understandably, the media looks for
*the
most controversial *of all the concepts which can be deployed. Keith, and
most close observers of sulfur injection, understands
Drs. Durbrow, Salter and Caldeira,
The use of both marine cloud *creation* *and* brightening (MCCB) would seem
to be useful along the California coast at this time as the drought is
proving to be highly disruptive with no end in sight. The use of diesel
engines for cloud condensation nuclei
Greg,
Concerning the core question in the article of it did not drop below a
minimum concentration of about 180 to 200 parts per million. Why?, there
maybe another fungi related mechanism at work. Most forms of mycylium
expire CO2. With a down turn in forest growth, due to low CO2 levels, a
Greg, Ron et.al.,
Dr. Schuiling has long advocated the use of olivine in agriculture for this
very reason. The LSM derived formulated organic fertilizer I'm working on
will have both biochar and olivine ingredients. Finding the right ratio is
my current focus on that issue. The CO2 uptake
/group/geoengineering.
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It is interesting to view the findings of Aquila et. al. with what is known
about the relationship of the QBO and the ENSO. I did a short search and
found this: The quasi-biennial oscillation and the El Niño Southern
Oscillation:http://www-das.uwyo.edu/~geerts/cwx/notes/chap11/qbo_enso.html
Oscar,
The premise of the paper is highly biased. To quote: *I argue that it is
their inherently global, unpredictable, uninsurable and potentially
catastrophic character, which can be both inimitable, frightening,...*
Carbon negative biofuel production is not unpredictable,
Mark et.al.,
In your work with using the benthic zone for CO2 storage, have you
contemplated, or found others suggesting, the injection of liquid CO2
within the Pelagic sediment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagic_sediment?
Using an oceanic version of a
the cretaceous. Ideally it should be banished again for that long.
A
On 5 Feb 2014 01:05, Michael Hayes vogle...@gmail.com javascript:
wrote:
Mark et.al.,
In your work with using the benthic zone for CO2 storage, have you
contemplated, or found others suggesting, the injection
Robert,
I would like to have a better understanding as to why the biomass *needs*to be
stored. The processing rate of algae can keep up with the cultivation
rate and the processed products shipped directly to shore. As Dr. Calvin
mentioned, the bag storage method ends up being a digested.
Surface turbines, in high wind/wave seas, would need extraordinary levels
of engineering with a corresponding extraordinary costs. High wind tethered
turbineshttp://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/next-generation/5-wild-flying-turbines#slide-5,
however, may be a lower cost option for
The issue of energy distribution (getting the energy to shore) seems to be
a key operational and financial consideration. Having both the profits from
wind/wave/otec/solar energy conversion and MCB would help overcome the high
cost of the gear while establishing the largest possible cooling
For those interested in the marine biomass spectrum of GE, the conference
listed below may be worth attending. I should be ready to finish up on the
Large Scale Mariculture paper by then and will be submitting by April
1st.. Although GE is not a part of the Algal Biomass Organization (ABO)
There is an saying that goes something like *To get along one needs to go
along.* and I believe this old saying encapsulates the issue of 'Cultural
Theory of Risk'. The general issue loosely known as 'The Moral Hazard' is
not an overly complicated scenario and core guidance in understanding
Renaud et. al.,
I looked for a good open source cover story on the Byrnes et. al. EEH paper
to help the general reader of this thread navigate around the paywall. Here
is a well written article in Phys.org:
*Physicists propose a device to capture energy from Earth's infrared
emissions
Hi Folks,
Here is the link to the CoLab entry concerning Marine
BECCShttp://climatecolab.org/web/guest/plans/-/plans/contestId/1300209
.
Any comments are welcomed.
Best,
Michael
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Greg, Ron and David et. al.,
In the WGIII SPM.4.2.2 Energy
Supplyhttp://report.mitigation2014.org/spm/ipcc_wg3_ar5_summary-for-policymakers_approved.pdf
section,
we find the following statement:
*Combining bioenergy with CCS (BECCS) offers the prospect of energy supply
with large‐scale
*Hi Folks,*
*As many on this list know, the IPCC WG3 recently published a report on
mitigation
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/geoengineering/IFGXhtJQs0Y/DgJtt6iqc78J in
which the use of the marine environment was largely omitted. I've sent in a
brief petition to the principles and I
Greg et.al.,
Your points are, as usual, highly supportable from a number of different
angles. The recent coordination of the IMO and the CBD responses to OIF
does appear to be the beginning of an intergovernmental governance matrix
focused upon the use of the marine environment for global
Hi Folks,
In an attempt to keep up with this thread through reviewing the Google
Scholar links, starting with the subject of Dimethylsulfoniopropionate
(DMSP) production, I've run across a reference to the link between low
temperatures and DMSP production within algae. In short, polar algae
Steven, Nathan et. al.,
I believe it would be difficult for anyone to support the view that Arctic
wave sinks would have little effect. Beyond the clear biological importance
of surface water mixing, the patent clearly shows the use of attached
mariculture operations which can support
In the article Ken attached, the text offers the view on CDR (which
included BECCS) that None of these currently can be deployed quickly on a
large scale.. Funding is the only limiting factor for many of the CDR
methods. And, this view of CDR being a non-starter on the scale side of the
Wave sinks may have found another use. If the wave actions are directly
related to ice thickness/extent, reducing wave action with sinks to promote
increasing ice extent would seem logical.
I expected the under ice wave action to be smooth as there is no wind
input. Also, Under Ice Wave Heave
The criteria of: *1) technical potential 2) cost-effectiveness 3)
ecological risk 4) ethical concerns 5) institutional capacity and 6) public
acceptance. *is in line with most efforts to develop GE concepts (TTBOMK).
Additionally, the combination of points 13 should be considered as
Chris,
I've asked both the EPA and NOAA straight forward questions concerning
gaining a 'permit' for any activity along the lines of using the oceanic
commons as a base for geoengineering. Both agencies seem to be clueless
about any national level 'permit' for using the oceans as a means for
Greg, Ron, (Dr. Benson) et. al.,
Greg, thank you for the Benson et. al. paper. Ron, the EPA document was
interesting to digest. However, the total lack of any marine centric view
to the BECCS issue is troublesome. I would like to point out a few
significant advantage concerning Marine BECCS
the two threads if
anyone wishes to have a full view of the complete correspondence on this
issue. The document can be found here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rRNNp0-0YdofIRY70mwI95p_4XJckASaBS3rlihqu08/pub
and
will be updated as warranted.)
*Michael Hayes*
*360-708-4976*
*The IMBECS Protocol
One way CDR/NET fuels can be injected into the debate is to point out that
the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS)
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/renewablefuels/ mandates that a percentage
of renewable fuels be used and that currently the EPA has not been able to
achieve the mandated percentage.
One interesting way to view the issue of ethics is to let the basic tenets
of ethics guide the selection of the primary 'goals' of large scale global
warming mitigation efforts. I used this approach in crafting the IMBECS
Protocol Draft
Renaud et.al.,
I'm 100% behind any effort to stop *any *particulates from being released.
However, the current levels of BC/S seems to be keeping the atmospheric
moisture levels (i.e. global tempurature) artificially low (up to 10% per S.
Solomon http://eaps-www.mit.edu/people/solos) through
Greg et. al.,
The ethical issue is, by far, the most undeveloped area of large scale
global warming mitigation (GE). Greg proposed 5 interesting thought tests
on the subject and I've tried to offer reasonable answers/solutions. Ron, I
see the ethical issues within the Biochar arena revolving
be cultivated without light...of any type.
I hope this is helpful.
Best regards,
Michael Hayes
On Monday, September 1, 2014 10:04:21 PM UTC-7, sevc...@me.com wrote:
Sam Carana has made a good summary of two of my recent concepts that are
designed to address both climate change and ocean
water/uncontrollable fertilizer application, you must
take full responsibility of any and all side effects resulting from such an
activity. Finding financial backers who will knowingly walk into such a
potentially vast scale of liability will be challenging.
Best regards,
*Michael Hayes*
*360-708
Hi Folks,
The IMBECS Protocol
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m9VXozADC0IIE6mYx5NsnJLrUvF_fWJN_GyigCzDLn0/edit
has been selected as a finalist within the MIT Climate CoLab
http://climatecolab.org/web/guest/plans/-/plans/contestId/1300401/planId/1306813
contest which is focused upon;
Greg et al,
Yes, the combination of marine biomass gasification with AWL does offer
interesting synergistic potential. To extend this synergistic link even
further, the H2 and CO2 can, in turn, be used to cultivate, without
light/photosynthesis, even larger volumes of marine biomass through
impacts of all of the preceding?
Greg
--
*From:* Michael Hayes vogle...@gmail.com javascript:
*To:* geoengi...@googlegroups.com javascript:
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 16, 2014 1:14 PM
*Subject:* [geo] Re: Steam Co-Gasification - Brown Seaweed, Land-Based
issues as well as those who attempt to actually develop ethical, equitable
and, yes, transparent STEM/policy solutions.
I hope I've made my views clear, if not, please let me know.
Best regards,
Michael,
*Michael Hayes*
*360-708-4976*
*The IMBECS Protocol Draft
https://docs.google.com/document/d
You are correct to be concerned about GM in this area and I, for one, have
been concerned for some time that the natural biotic methods of climate
engineering will be set aside in lieu of non-natural means simply for the*
novelty* of those means and or methods. Genetic modification is such a
have no confidence that it can be.
Best,
Michael
*Michael Hayes*
*360-708-4976*
*The IMBECS Protocol Draft
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m9VXozADC0IIE6mYx5NsnJLrUvF_fWJN_GyigCzDLn0/pub
*
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 4:22 AM, Andrew Lockley andrew.lock...@gmail.com
wrote:
The concern here
With a pH of 11.8, I do not see how monoethanolamine would be acceptable
for wide area use within the Antarctic. The international treaties
protecting that region are clear about 'pollution'. This highly caustic
substance is not something you would want your children playing with much
less
Parminder et al,
Thank you for bringing up the mangrove/salt marsh/peatland issue. As we
know, the past 50-100 years have seen vast coastal areas simply devastated
due to many human factors. One of the most far reaching factor, which is
little known to the general public, is related to shrimp
developed within the
IMBECS Protocol Draft
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m9VXozADC0IIE6mYx5NsnJLrUvF_fWJN_GyigCzDLn0/edit.
Any suggestions or comments would be highly welcomed.
Best regards,
*Michael Hayes*
*360-708-4976*
*The IMBECS Protocol Draft
https://docs.google.com/document/d
Ron et al,
One way to work around the upcoming dismantlement of climate mitigation
work is to couch the work as a form of economic expansion, which is a
cornerstone of the Rep. party platform. Fortunately, biochar, olivine,
industrial agro improvements in general as well as marine BECCS can
*[ND1]* *The concept of CO2 utilization goes something like this: instead
of releasing CO2 into the atmosphere through industrial processes, we could
instead capture CO2 from smokestacks (and/or the ambient atmosphere) and
use this CO2 to manufacture carbon-based products — such as fuels,
in the above Wiki on BECCS
as part of the term IMBECS, often written about on this list by Michael
Hayes (see July 9, 2014). His BECS includes more than the term BECCS
(although MIT mislabeled his proposal that way). I wish he had used a term
other than BECS, but the I and M in his work perhaps
The Integrated Protocol for Climate Change Mitigation (IPCCM):
A Strategic Hypothesis Concerning Merging Competing Climate Chang
Mitigation Concepts for Maximum Synergistic Value
The IPCCM Draft
*Abstract: *The complex nature of climate change requires mitigation
protocols which are
Hi Folks,
The whole concept of the salmon population dramatically increasing due to a
few days of extra feed is, on the face of it, simply ridiculous. Here in
the Pacific Northwest there has been an ongoing multi decades effort at salmon
recovery
Hi Folks,
This level of discussion on SAI seems to be premature. We have yet to see
any...any...models concerning the highly predictable increase in Polar
Stratospheric Cloud (PSC) production which will be caused by SAI. This is
not a trivial precondition to further discussion. As, the
Hi Folks,
The MIT Climate CoLab/Cambridge UHI Challenge closes today and your votes
for the Cambridge Heat Island Protocol (CHIP)
http://climatecolab.org/web/guest/plans/-/plans/contestId/1301101/planId/1312501
would be greatly appreciated.
In brief, the challenge is important at the
Andrew et al,
Thanks for the link. In the piece, Dr. Manning is calling for, or pointing
out the benefits of adding calcium to the urban soil...which is found in
olivine. Below is a pdf worked up by Dr. Manning.
Update on progress: Urban Carbon Capture project Prof David Manning
Dr. Schuiling et al,
Your work does offer an elegant summation of a logic which few can dispute,
especially someone as scientifically ill equipped as myself. The use of
olivine opens up a number of far more complex climate change mitigation and
adaptation scenarios than what you propose and
Noah,
The statement that ...biochar can be burned to create electricity instead
of applied to soils as a carbon sink. is questionable as biochar 'fuel' is
charcoal. Only that which is buried is 'biochar'.
Yet, I believe Ron Larson (IBI) can best express this point.
Also, your mission objective
Hi Folks,
The complexity of the oceanic CE legal arena
https://drive.google.com/viewerng/viewer?a=vpid=forumssrcid=MDE0NTY3NTk0NzY2MTMxMzQ4MjEBMDg0NjYzMTgwMjE2NzAxOTY1NDABSTh5cEVDbkRTeXdKATAuMQEBdjI
is well presented by Prof. Rayfuse. One approach which can be employed
requires looking past
Ron, Andrew, Oliver, Dave, Nick, Drs. McNutt and Hunt as well as UNEP/GCF
representatives,
*First, for those who are receiving this a second time, I apologize as
their was an objection by a moderator to the reference to a AGU
presentation title referred to in the below text. The reference has
years ago). To
repeat: placement of char or CO2 can be independent of where its
predecessor photosynthesis took place.
5. Few inserts on Michael’s work:
On Jan 10, 2015, at 2:12 PM, Michael Hayes voglerl...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Folks,
The complexity of the oceanic CE legal arena
https
Hi folks,
I find Ken's statement of *The only thing a politician can do to start the
planet cooling is solar geoengineering*. is un-supportable, on the face of
it, as there are a multitude of 'planet cooling' means and methods
available. And, the statement ignores roughly every thing that the
Hi Folks,
The IMBECS Protocol Draft
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zMD-k9QLS9TfEGDpaQptGBqdtXa-1NCx5oNKvEjrL8Y/edit?usp=drive_web
is calling for much of, if not considerably more than, what Ms/Dr. Randhawa
is proposing in the below work.
Best,
Michael
On Monday, April 27, 2015 at
as being highly un-
necessarily un-safe and the claim that SAI is *The only thing a politician
can do to start the planet cooling is solar geoengineering*' is simply not
supportable at the STEM/policy levelson the face of it..
Best regards,
Michael
*Michael Hayes*
*How inadequate
Hi Folks,
It may be wise to look at using wave/tidal energy (and other technologies)
to re-engineer/restore the vast amount of mangrove forest lands which has
been destroyed by shrimp farming http://shrimp farming mangrove
destruction before open coastal deserts are converted to carbon
Hi Folks,
The degree of synergies presented by the MECC method can possibly generate
even further useful products. Why not include phosphorus recovery
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20140910006209/en/AVA-CO2-Achieves-Breakthrough-Phosphorus-Recovery-Introduces-AVA#.VcK7T_lViko
as well
Like Greg, I also thank Andrew for alerting us to this document.
*Issue 1) The potential global bioenergy resource available for BECCS is a
key uncertainty; composed of uncertainties in land and water
availability, crop yields and residue availability, each associated
with socio-economic
Ron et al.,
Sev provided us a review of his concept around a year ago and my primary
concerns with nutrient flacks are with the open water release of the
nutrients as:
a) Pathogenic species would be fed along with non-pathogenic species which
would have profound implications for both humans
ngratulations to the LC/LP and IMO in organising the April 2015
> Marine Geoengineering symposium in London, and in now publishing the
> presentations. May the UNFCCC, and other agencies concerned, ensure that a
> comprehensive governance regime for precautionary climate intervention,
&
Hi Folks,
Regretfully, the authors have relegated the use of the word Geoengineering
to simply include SRM concepts. However, to their collective credit, they
do explain that they purposefully picked the easiest concept to model.
With that said, their efforts at viewing the challenge(s) from a
wed as
being too unpredictable to deployat this time.
In the most simplistic terms, to our best collective knowledge, SAI can
just as easily warm the polar regions as not. Tough gamble!
Best,
Michael
*Michael Hayes*
*"How inadequate it is to term this planet "Earth", as it is
Nature is...never...that simple. Mr. Battersby is only telling half the
story!
*Pseudomonas syringae elicits emission of the terpenoid
(E,E)-4,8,12-trimethyl-1,3,7,11-tridecatetraene in Arabidopsis leaves via
jasmonate signaling and expression of the terpene synthase TPS4.
Dear Maggie,
I support most of what you point out with the exception of: *"Because you
can't easily promote offset schemes and sell carbon credits with, say,
enhanced marine carbon deposition, which in any case we don't know how to
do and is highly likely that we'll screw up the oceans even
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