Re: [Gimp-developer] New GIMP Webpage the 2nd

2001-05-25 Thread Tuomas Kuosmanen

On 23 May 2001 18:43:52 -0400, Michael Spunt wrote:
 Hi!
 
 On Wed, 23 May 2001 17:13:54 +0200 Christoph Rauch
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  I have updated my lists at http://home.bn-paf.de/smokey/gimp_org/
  It would be great if we could get all that uncertainty out of them.
  :-))
  We must know what we want to have as the result and how to get there.
 
 One point I have to criticise:
 ...* No so important ones: 1. Netscape 2. IE...
 
 The web-site should look perfect in every browser, also there are many
 Windows users and people who use Windows at the office / internet café
 :-) etc. Any discussions about which browsers must be supported more /
 less are no good IMHO.
 

I agree. And sometimes it is useful to use Lynx (slow link, or to fit
the window next to the Gimp stuff) Even rather complex table hack can
be made nice in a text browser (go see www.ximian.com with Lynx to see 
what I mean)

CSS works okay if done right. www.linux.com is a pretty good example of
this - Garrett knows his stuff really well.



 Anyway, here are my votes on different topics (see also my mockup):
 
 layout:
 1. layout - appearance - clean and cool, the current color map is not
 that bad, consequent theme
 2. in-detail design - a set of icons is required to mark special news,
 sections... see above
 3. a logo is nice, should contain Wilber
 4. navigation structure should be changed (see my mockup)

There should be one designer (or a few working closely together) that
does the look I think, design by committee has never worked well. But
there is a lot of work needed in other areas as well, like the content
structure, how to do the navigation etc.

But the first thing to think about is NOT how it looks. It is what we
want to put there, what the users need, and how to organize it nicely so
it will serve the needs of the users and the Gimp project.

Once we have some serious stuff done on that area, I can even see if
could put some free time aside for doing the look, if you want.

 1. dynamic - php/*sql - easy to code, offers many possibilities, we use
 it at the GUG and it's excellent for those purposes IMHO

Beware that PHP can get slow under heavy load if you dont do it right.
It is very easy to have all kinds of stupid spaghetti tricks there, as
well as get lost in the table labyrinth when you include stuff a lot.

It is easy to generate static pages via Cron if it becomes a problem
though. (snarf http://www.gimp.org/dynamic.html static.html)

Tuomas


-- 
..
|  Tuomas Kuosmanen  |  Ximian  |  Art Director  |
|  [EMAIL PROTECTED] |  www.ximian.com   |
`'

___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer



Re: [Gimp-developer] New GIMP Webpage the 2nd

2001-05-25 Thread Malcolm Tredinnick

On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 11:28:57AM +0300, Ville Pätsi wrote:
 
 Uhm. Funny enough, right now there is a big discussion in
 gnome-webmaster list about wml.

It's not just on gnome-webmaster -- it's raging across a number of Gnome
lists. In amongst some of the crazed hand waving and finger pointing one
of the good points raised that hasn't been mentioned here (at least, not
clearly) is standards compliance.

Some of the complaints about the current Gnome site and it's potential
replacement is how to ensure that it is possible for people to validate
that what they are about to commit will generate valid HTML. Here
valid means conforming to the W3C standard for whichever version of
HTML is chosen and also passing through something like htmltidy without
complaint. The former is obvious, the latter maybe not so common (try
running the current www.gimp.org/index.html through tidy -- lots of
warnings).

That greatly increases the chances that whatever you have
will degrade nicely to different browsers.

Cheers,
Malcolm

-- 
Never make any misteaks.
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer



Re: [Gimp-developer] New GIMP Webpage the 2nd

2001-05-25 Thread Tom Rathborne

On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 04:46:21PM +0800, Malcolm Tredinnick wrote:
 On Thu, May 24, 2001 at 11:28:57AM +0300, Ville Pätsi wrote:
  Uhm. Funny enough, right now there is a big discussion in
  gnome-webmaster list about wml.
 
 It's not just on gnome-webmaster -- it's raging across a number of
 Gnome lists. In amongst some of the crazed hand waving and finger
 pointing one of the good points raised that hasn't been mentioned
 here (at least, not clearly) is standards compliance.
 
 Some of the complaints about the current Gnome site and it's
 potential replacement is how to ensure that it is possible for
 people to validate that what they are about to commit will generate
 valid HTML. Here valid means conforming to the W3C standard for
 whichever version of HTML is chosen and also passing through
 something like htmltidy without complaint. The former is obvious,
 the latter maybe not so common (try running the current
 www.gimp.org/index.html through tidy -- lots of warnings).
 
 That greatly increases the chances that whatever you have will
 degrade nicely to different browsers.

I am unfortunately _very_ out of touch with web standards - I
preferred HTML in about 1995. I think it's safe to say that however
this gets done, the HTML in the content should be limited to p,
br, a, b, i, and everything else should come from a template,
one way or another.

On Fri, May 25, 2001 at 02:20:24PM +0300, Tuomas Kuosmanen wrote:
 But the first thing to think about is NOT how it looks. It is what
 we want to put there, what the users need, and how to organize it
 nicely so it will serve the needs of the users and the Gimp project.

I've tried to build things so that these decisions can be made in
parallel - that is, if we decide to stick with the simple left-side
tree-style navigation, what actually appears in the tree can be
changed without much worry.

 Once we have some serious stuff done on that area, I can even see if
 could put some free time aside for doing the look, if you want.

Cool, I was hoping you would say that.

  1. dynamic - php/*sql - easy to code, offers many possibilities, we use
  it at the GUG and it's excellent for those purposes IMHO
 Beware that PHP can get slow under heavy load if you dont do it right.
 It is very easy to have all kinds of stupid spaghetti tricks there, as
 well as get lost in the table labyrinth when you include stuff a lot.

Yes. That's why my Perl stuff has a _very_ short path to decide
whether there is a cached copy of the page -- then the spaghetti can
commence for the unlucky soul who is the first to visit a page that
has just been edited. :)

 It is easy to generate static pages via Cron if it becomes a problem
 though. (snarf http://www.gimp.org/dynamic.html static.html)

Indeed - when global changes are made to the site, I nuke all the 
cached files and use a recursive wget to force a regeneration.

Cheers,

Tom

-- 
   Tom Rathborne [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.aceldama.com/~tomr/   |
 I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my  | H
 complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the | A
 greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission, and I want to help you. | L
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer



Re: [Gimp-developer] New GIMP Webpage the 2nd

2001-05-24 Thread Jarda Benkovsky

Ville Pätsi wrote:
 
 These 1.4K bytes were from Christoph Rauch,
  Agreed. Then... why not use WML. It's easy to learn and flexible enough
 
 No! The current GNOME-website is made with wml. And the problem is that wml is
 a horrible piece of crap. The next generation GNOME-website will not use wml
 because its a nightmare to maintain, not to mention incredibly difficult or
 perhaps impossible to compile without some serious black magic. If we used wml
 we would be where we are right now.

Really? Do YOU have experiences with it? I use it for my pages (not big
piece of art, but anyway: http://www.pvtnet.cz/www/pvt.benkovsk/gimp/ )
and it works. There are certainly some problems when using perl in
divertions etc, but it easily allows you to use content-describing
tagging (as SGML/XML) in addition to appearance-describing one (HTML).
Fr example, you could create download box with something like this:

box red Download links
  download New GIMP ftp://ftp.gimp.org/;
  download New Potatoshop http://www.warez.org/.;
/box

And it could make a nice coloured box with title and links with
filesizes displayed.

That said, I think it's not so important what to use, provided that it
will be free and easily accessible, makes webmaster's routine work easy
and will keep the site clean as discussed recently.


Regards,
Jarda Benkovsky
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer



Re: [Gimp-developer] New GIMP Webpage the 2nd

2001-05-24 Thread Ville Pätsi

 Really? Do YOU have experiences with it? I use it for my pages (not big
 piece of art, but anyway: http://www.pvtnet.cz/www/pvt.benkovsk/gimp/ )
 and it works. There are certainly some problems when using perl in
 divertions etc, but it easily allows you to use content-describing
 tagging (as SGML/XML) in addition to appearance-describing one (HTML).

Uhm. Funny enough, right now there is a big discussion in gnome-webmaster list
about wml. The decision not to use wml has been made, but the current site 
thats on uses wml. A Japaniese person requested that a link to his site would
be added to the link page in the GNOME website. He had mail four (4) times 
before anyone was bothered to mess with the crap known as wml. A new website
is in the works that doesn't have these problems.
  The biggest problem with wml(and others) is that the original creator of a 
page knows it inside out, and knows wml quite well, since he had to learn it
to create the page. But when new information needs to be added by an another
person, problems arise. The problem is, that most content providers shouldn't 
need to be wml experts, and most aren't, so content is not being added. 
  I am not saying I know a perfect way to make a big website. I personally 
would  probably go with css, http://www.linux.com/ is a good example of a site 
that uses css nicely, and it even works with Netscape 4. 

 That said, I think it's not so important what to use, provided that it
 will be free and easily accessible, makes webmaster's routine work easy
 and will keep the site clean as discussed recently.

Exactly. Thus no wml, since it shouldn't be the webmasters work to provide
content. The webmasters job would be to maintain the service and  the style-
sheets. He's job should not be to morph someone elses content to the 
whatever-codebase.

-- 
Ville Pätsi -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer



Re: [Gimp-developer] New GIMP Webpage the 2nd

2001-05-23 Thread Michael Spunt

Hi!

On Wed, 23 May 2001 17:13:54 +0200 Christoph Rauch
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I have updated my lists at http://home.bn-paf.de/smokey/gimp_org/
 It would be great if we could get all that uncertainty out of them.
 :-))
 We must know what we want to have as the result and how to get there.

One point I have to criticise:
...* No so important ones: 1. Netscape 2. IE...

The web-site should look perfect in every browser, also there are many
Windows users and people who use Windows at the office / internet café
:-) etc. Any discussions about which browsers must be supported more /
less are no good IMHO.

Anyway, here are my votes on different topics (see also my mockup):

layout:
1. layout - appearance - clean and cool, the current color map is not
that bad, consequent theme
2. in-detail design - a set of icons is required to mark special news,
sections... see above
3. a logo is nice, should contain Wilber
4. navigation structure should be changed (see my mockup)

content:
1. all news in the Gimp / general image processing world (new
algorithms, contests...)
2. tutorials, articles, interviews (ok, this is a little portal-style
but why searching the net for hours to find stuff you need!?)
3. (maybe) integrate registry.gimp.org and add screenshots / examples as
far as posible
4. dynamic list of mirrors, RPM / DEB locations
5. links to external resources (e.g. linuxgraphic.org, gtk.org,
linuxartist.org - is it alive, btw?)
6. mailinglist archives
7. cvs usage / getting involved / compilation / requirements / Windows
LZW quirks

cms:
1. dynamic - php/*sql - easy to code, offers many possibilities, we use
it at the GUG and it's excellent for those purposes IMHO

editing:
1. people should get an editor's account to add news, articles etc. via
web-interface (perhaps slashdot-like commenting, get ready for AC,
fp and ge.cx ;-))

Just my 0.02 Euro.

--
--=[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]=--
--=[ http://www.technoid.f2s.com ]=--
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer



Re: [Gimp-developer] New GIMP Webpage the 2nd

2001-05-23 Thread Christoph Rauch

Andreas Jaekel schrieb:

 Concerning the Content Engine:
 We use CVS and a simple perl script for recursive dirctory walks
 to compile the pages from templates. We have design and content
 templates, but that's only the way we do it.

I had something like this in mind too.

 The advantages are:
  o [...deleted...]

Plausible.

 Now, I'm not saying this is the tool to use. Rather, I'm suggesting
 to use something like it. I'd gladly provide it as a starting point,
 but a few small tune-ups are in order. I'd volunteer to write these.

Where can we find it? Is there a public CVS server to get it? I would like to
document the current system to ease transition to a new or only improved one.

 I think using nothing but html pages will simply not work and using
 a complicated content management will be too hard to learn. A newby
 joining in later will have a high learning curve ahead of him/her
 before (s)he can contribute.

Agreed. Then... why not use WML. It's easy to learn and flexible enough for almost 
everything. Uses a makefile system and various includeable languages (you need not use 
them if you dont want to). But then... it may be overkill. ;-))

Christoph

--
http://home.bn-paf.de/smokey/



___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer



Re: [Gimp-developer] New GIMP Webpage the 2nd

2001-05-23 Thread Christoph Rauch

Michael Spunt schrieb:

  I have updated my lists at http://home.bn-paf.de/smokey/gimp_org/
  It would be great if we could get all that uncertainty out of them.
  We must know what we want to have as the result and how to get there.
 One point I have to criticise:
 ...* No so important ones: 1. Netscape 2. IE...

That was more meant as a ... joke? ;-)) Of course the page should display
nice on every target. Ranging from lynx over netscape and ie to mozilla.
The current page displayed in lynx is suboptimal.

 4. navigation structure should be changed (see my mockup)

This needs to be discussed further...

 content:
 1. all news in the Gimp / general image processing world (new
 algorithms, contests...)

At least, anything which has a direct link to the gimp itself. All that
relates to it would be a bit much I think. Think of stuffed wilber - buy
now :-/

 cms:
 1. dynamic - php/*sql - easy to code, offers many possibilities, we use
 it at the GUG and it's excellent for those purposes IMHO
 editing:
 1. people should get an editor's account to add news, articles etc. via
 web-interface (perhaps slashdot-like commenting, get ready for AC,
 fp and ge.cx ;-))

oh my! :-) I see a flameware rising. Active vs. Passive

PHP has a advantage over passive html-pages. You can react on the user
immediately. Think of: You go to gimp.org in germany and see german
content. Same thing in GB or the US and you see it in english. PHP can be
made to react on the browsers language preferences.

But perhaps we could configure Apache to do it too?

Christoph

--
http://home.bn-paf.de/smokey/



___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer



Re: [Gimp-developer] New GIMP Webpage the 2nd

2001-05-23 Thread Simon Budig

Christoph Rauch ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 The current page displayed in lynx is suboptimal.

For a neat trick have a look at http://www.home.unix-ag.org/simon/ .
The layout is similiar to the Gimp homepage but the menu is at the
*end* of the page. This is done with a small table trick:


  +---+
  ++--+
  ++  |
  | M  |Content   |
  | e  |  |
  | n  |  |
  | u  |  |
  ++--+

With this layout the Menu-Html-code is *after* the Content-HTML
Code and lynx renders it at the end of the page. You don't have to
skip lots of links at the beginning.

[...]
 PHP has a advantage over passive html-pages. You can react on the user
 immediately. Think of: You go to gimp.org in germany and see german
 content. Same thing in GB or the US and you see it in english. PHP can be
 made to react on the browsers language preferences.
 
 But perhaps we could configure Apache to do it too?

Yes, this is possible with content negotiation.

Bye,
Simon
-- 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.home.unix-ag.org/simon/
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer



Re: [Gimp-developer] New GIMP Webpage the 2nd

2001-05-23 Thread Raphael Quinet

On Wed, 23 May 2001, Simon Budig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Christoph Rauch ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
   The current page displayed in lynx is suboptimal.

Well, at least it is not too bad.  It is still looking better in lynx
than http://gug.sunsite.dk/ and some other gimp-related pages.  ;-)

[...skipped nice HTML trick...]

   PHP has a advantage over passive html-pages. You can react on the user
   immediately. Think of: You go to gimp.org in germany and see german
   content. Same thing in GB or the US and you see it in english. PHP can be
   made to react on the browsers language preferences.
  
   But perhaps we could configure Apache to do it too?
 
  Yes, this is possible with content negotiation.

And it is better, IMHO.  Apache allows you to store several versions
of the page in different languages, and it will serve the most
appropriate one according to the user's language preferences.  This
approach also has the advantage that if you want to get one page in a
different language than the one specified in your preferences, you
simply have to modify the URL (e.g. index.fr.html instead of
index.html) without having to reconfigure your browser for a single
page.

As I mentioned in a previous message, static pages (generated once,
not at every request) can be cached, which is not always possible for
dynamic pages and definitely not possible if cookies are used.  Static
pages are good for the user's browser as well as for large caching
proxies that speed up the downloads for many users.  I am behind a
proxy that is used by several thousand users, so I can see the
difference...

-Raphael

P.S.: This has been surprisingly active discussion...  Unfortunately,
   I will probably be away from the 'net in the next 4 days, so do
   not be surprised if you do not see more replies from me.
   I hope that the other topics that were discussed before this
   web site thread started will not be lost in the noise...  Bye!

___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer



Re: [Gimp-developer] New GIMP Webpage the 2nd

2001-05-23 Thread Ville Pätsi

These 1.4K bytes were from Christoph Rauch,
 Agreed. Then... why not use WML. It's easy to learn and flexible enough 
 for almost everything. Uses a makefile system and various includeable 
 languages (you need not use them if you dont want to). But then... it may 
 be overkill. ;-))

No! The current GNOME-website is made with wml. And the problem is that wml is
a horrible piece of crap. The next generation GNOME-website will not use wml
because its a nightmare to maintain, not to mention incredibly difficult or
perhaps impossible to compile without some serious black magic. If we used wml
we would be where we are right now. 

-- 
Ville Pätsi -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Gimp-developer mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer