Re: [Gimp-developer] Request to include Gimp Manual Book at Gimp.org

2008-10-23 Thread David Odin
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 10:22:11PM -0300, Monica Kraenzle wrote:
 
 The users manual version we used is for gimp 2.4, dated December 2007.
 
 I have uploaded a reduced pdf to show the cover and the interior pages:
 http://www.maxishare.net/en/file/8416/gimp-manual-2-4-reduced-pdf.html
 
 Basicly it's nothing else than a printed version of the electronic
 version (and it's NOT mass-distributed).

  Basically, it is a _black_and_white_ printed version, which make most
screenshots completly useless, at least that pdf is a BW version.

 The only customizations we made is creating a cover and formatting
 this electronic manual to a printed manual. All authors and
 contributors are credited. License terms and information about what
 version as well as a link to the gimp.org site for software and manual
 updates etc. are included.
 
  Does that really allow you to put a copyright for the 2008 year on
page 4?

 As soon as there would be available an updated 2.6 manual we could
 update the edition as well.
 
  Repeat after me: as soon as there would be available an updated 2.6
manual we WON'T publish a printed edition, but we will ASK the
documentation team what to do, since we don't want to repeat the same
errors again and again.

 Many others are distributing CD's with gimp software versions from the
 website and are allowed to do so (surely these are also not always the
 latest software versions without any bugs) and we printed the
 electronic manual on paper ...

  Yes, they are allowed to do so, some are even contacting us
beforehand, and all of them have to distribute the real official package
(which is the tar.gz source package, and not an svn or unstable release),
and none of them asked us to advertise their CD on our website.

   Again, I'm speaking in my name, and _not_ in the name of the gimp
team (or I would have chosen another email address)

 Cheers,

DindinX

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Request to include Gimp Manual Book at Gimp.org books (Gimp merchandise)

2008-10-22 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 01:45 -0300, Monica Kraenzle wrote:

 Yes, it is a pdf formatted version of http://docs.gimp.org .
 
 We formatted the gnu-labeled PDF version for book printing and designed this 
 cover.
 All pages are completed including all gnu informations.
 
 GNU Image Manipulation Program
 December 2, 2007
 REVISION HISTORY
 $Revision: 2129 $ 2007-07-15 romanofski

It's a somewhat unprofessional approach to print and sell the user
manual without getting in contact with the authors beforehand, isn't it?
And then you put Susan A. Jones as the author. Who is that? I don't
remember having seen that name among the contributors to the GIMP user
manual.

 Could you help to get this up on the book page?

I don't think we want to advertize an outdated copy of the user manual.
Definitely not without approval from the GIMP docs team. So please ask
them first.


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-developer] Request to include Gimp Manual Book at Gimp.org books (Gimp merchandise)

2008-10-22 Thread Roman Joost
Hi Monica,

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 08:29:41AM +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:
  Yes, it is a pdf formatted version of http://docs.gimp.org .
I wonder what you did? The PDF versions we published on
http://docs.gimp.org were still considered as work-in-progress.
Additionally they are very much outdated.

  We formatted the gnu-labeled PDF version for book printing and
  designed this cover.  All pages are completed including all gnu
  informations.
  
  GNU Image Manipulation Program
  December 2, 2007
  REVISION HISTORY
  $Revision: 2129 $ 2007-07-15 romanofski
 
 It's a somewhat unprofessional approach to print and sell the user
 manual without getting in contact with the authors beforehand, isn't it?
 And then you put Susan A. Jones as the author. Who is that? I don't
 remember having seen that name among the contributors to the GIMP user
 manual.
I have to agree with Sven here. The manual was written by a lot of
authors and people who spend their free time on the manual.

I can't remember that you gave either me or someone else of the
documentation team a note that you published the book. It would have
been much better to post a mail to the docs mailing list:

http://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html


-- 
Roman Joost
www: http://www.romanofski.de
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [Gimp-developer] Request to include Gimp Manual Book at Gimp.org books (Gimp merchandise)

2008-10-22 Thread Roman Joost
Hi Monica,

 Did I missed something about GNU? 
 I studied the gimp website, all GNU licences written in the manual,
 the GNU site etc.  We included all pages of the manual within the
 book, including all GNU infomations, all author names etc. plus the
 informations that there is an updated html onlie manual available at
 gimp.org
 
 I did not see any hint anywhere that we have to ask for approval of a
 Gimp doc team and just found out how to contact gimp developers to ask
 for adding the book.
There is actually nothing illegal printing and selling the copies of the
PDF version. Although it's not best practice. PDF versions published on
docs.gimp.org are not final versions, they're 'snapshot' versions
meaning that they include all small an major glitches (spelling errors,
layout problems, etc). 

So with all the glitches in the PDF version and including that it's
outdated, I don't think your customers will be satisfied all in all.
That could also mean that people think, we as in the contributors to the
manual, published our manual on our own through you, which is not the
case.

 I don't want to be offensive but is Gimp and the Gimp manual GNU or
 not?
It is GNU. The manual is not published under GPL it is published under
GFDL.

 Although I noticed later on that somewhere it's written somewhere that
 the gimp doc team could be contacted to ask if there is any updated
 version.

 As a publishing company has to mention one main author we used Susan
 A. Jones as a editor pen name of the book. Technically there is no
 way to use 20 or what authors as authors when you publish a book. But
 all authors are credited in the book pages itself.
I do think that is possible ... at least technically.

So finally - you can publish the PDF versions of the manual whereever
you want to as long as you stick to the license (naming Susan A. Jones
as an editor violates the license probably.). But by publishing it
without asking you can't expecting any help from us.

Greetings,
-- 
Roman Joost
www: http://www.romanofski.de
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [Gimp-developer] Request to include Gimp Manual Book at Gimp.org

2008-10-22 Thread Alexandre Prokoudine
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Monica Kraenzle wrote:

 - If you are giving something away with a GNU licence to redistribute =
 don't complain that publisher do it and don't complain that we don't
 ask for it as it is already permitted within the licence.

This is hilarious. You remind me one very unprofessionally written
article whose author  bashed Oxygen icon theme artists for asking
people not to distribute it until KDE4 is out. See, GIMP manual is by
no means complete and doesn't even cover features of the current
stable version.

Open source is about cooperation. This is something you really need to
consider, IMHO.

Alexandre, *not* saying this on behalf of the team
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Request to include Gimp Manual Book at Gimp.org

2008-10-22 Thread Karine Delvare
Le Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:06:14 -0300,
Monica Kraenzle [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :

 It really sounds funny that you are releasing software and manuals to
 the public with GNU licenses to freely distribute them privately and
 commercially but at the end you don't want people to use the license
 but to ask you before.

It doesn't look like you understand the difference between legally
possible and good idea. It's too bad you printed a book of bad
quality just because you didn't contact the documentation team first.
It could have been great to prepare a top-quality version of the manual
with the team and release it as a book.

It's exactly the same when people take GIMP source code, brand it
MyPhotoshop or whatever, and sell it. Then buyers complain that there
are bugs - of course, by the time they buy it, most bugs are fixed
and new features have appeared, but they will never see that. So,
this is legally allowed, but the seller shouldn't be surprised when the
development team isn't very happy about the situation.

Karine
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Request to include Gimp Manual Book at Gimp.org

2008-10-22 Thread Torsten Neuer
Am Mittwoch, 22. Oktober 2008 16:20:20 schrieb Karine Delvare:
 Monica Kraenzle [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit :
  It really sounds funny that you are releasing software and manuals to
  the public with GNU licenses to freely distribute them privately and
  commercially but at the end you don't want people to use the license
  but to ask you before.

The right to use and the right to publish does not free a publisher from the 
responsibility of ensuring a quality end-product. From what I have read here, 
this responsibility has be entirely neglected in this case.

 It doesn't look like you understand the difference between legally
 possible and good idea. It's too bad you printed a book of bad
 quality just because you didn't contact the documentation team first.
 It could have been great to prepare a top-quality version of the manual
 with the team and release it as a book.

 It's exactly the same when people take GIMP source code, brand it
 MyPhotoshop or whatever, and sell it. Then buyers complain that there

Not quite exactly the same, as the title of such a piece of software would be 
different. But in the current case, the title is Gimp User's Manual, i.e. 
it is directly related to the Gimp project and the finger will point at all 
members of the developing team and any contributors if there are bugs.

This is the main point why people here are so upset for not being asked before 
publishing the book in the first place. The people here do want to produce 
quality software and quality documentation as well.

Any editor of a published book that is compiled from articles of different 
authors (this is what also applies to the GUM) should read through those 
articles carefully and clear out any questions that might arise from the 
differences between the article (i.e. the documentation in this case) and the 
topic (i.e. the actual product in the current stable version) before the 
final work is going to be published. This is even more true with the Gimp, 
where the stable product and the documentation are not kept in sync (since 
keeping them in sync would slow down the software development).

just my 2cc

  Torsten


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Re: [Gimp-developer] Request to include Gimp Manual Book at Gimp.org

2008-10-22 Thread Alexia Death
On Wednesday 22 October 2008 17:51:02 Monica Kraenzle wrote:
 But I also offered to talk about releasing an updated second edition and to
 collaborate.
Open source is all about collaboration. Jumping out of the bushes and 
demanding support is not it.

 But now to go to the book page and give a bad rating to say this is bad
 quality and the gimp developers say this is not an official manual is not
 the finest way. 

If documentation team has not reviewed what you are going to print with that 
goal, printing, in mind, it can hardly be called official. That and the 
attribution is are in my humble opinion the things that have stroked the 
community the wrong way. Attribution is the closest thing for reward the 
contributors get for their effort and tho they cant demand it, they do expect 
it as part of good manners. If attribution as individuals is not practical, 
then as a collective through a name the collective recognizes.

I do not think the bad rating giver is even a contributor. It can be anybody 
who has read this list. A list that is indexed by google quite fast through 
several list archives. Sven can hardly be blamed for expressing his opinion, 
that most there seem to share. 

Do you consider this as fair?
I had nothing to do with the rating, but... Well,I do think it is fair. 
Support of a community is a great thing to have, but it needs to be earned by 
doing right by the community and not only by the letter of the law or at least 
by accepting and acknowledging your mistakes.  So far you have done neither, 
only complained.

 Not only to us but also to all the authors who worked on that version?
Id suspect the authors are not offended - it is by a Sarah, isn't it...

 We had to bad intention at all.
Neither do any of us when pointing out to you what was/is exactly wrong with 
your approach. It's up to you to decide what you do, now that you know the 
sentiment of the community.

-- Alexia
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Request to include Gimp Manual Book at Gimp.org

2008-10-22 Thread Robert Krawitz
   From: Monica Kraenzle [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:51:02 -0300

   But now to go to the book page and give a bad rating to say this is
   bad quality and the gimp developers say this is not an official
   manual is not the finest way.  Do you consider this as fair?  Not
   only to us but also to all the authors who worked on that version?

   We had to bad intention at all.

From my experience (as the project lead for Gutenprint), it *is* a
real problem when well-intentioned distributors use beta (or old)
versions of our software, or make changes without discussing them with
us.  We've had a few cases of this happen, and the result is that
users yell at us for something we didn't do.  I've fired off a few
angry emails of my own to distributors over things like that.

Yes, the license allows you to do what you want, but that doesn't mean
that it's a good idea to grab a snapshot and publish it as a book, or
to distribute it with changes without clearly pointing out the local
customizations.

In this particular case, it would have saved a lot of hard feelings
(not to mention a good bit of work on your part) to have asked about
this before publishing it.  If nothing else, you would at least have
known what version to publish.

-- 
Robert Krawitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Tall Clubs International  --  http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Project lead for Gutenprint   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works.
--Eric Crampton
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Request to include Gimp Manual Book at Gimp.org books (Gimp merchandise)

2008-10-21 Thread Michael Schumacher
Monica Kraenzle wrote:

 Title: GIMP - The official Manual

What exactly makes this book official? Is it a print of the manual
available from http://docs.gimp.org?


Michael

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