Menubar in fullscreen mode [Re: [Gimp-developer] the user installer]
Go to the menu and toggle View Menubar. How did you miss this? (Gimp 1.3.4) I had the menubar turned on I expected to still have the menubar in fullscreen mode. - Alan (had to disappear for a few days been busy with other stuff) ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] the user installer
On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 06:48:08PM +0200, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: users. The dialog is great and much better than a html help page for example, but it's presented at a time people will have no clue what it means. Perhaps we should show it on every startup then ? It's setting preferences, so it quite naturally could be accessible from the preferences. I always wondered why I get this nice fancy wizards only on configuration, but when I later want to change these values I need to set them using a totally different interface (while the installer is s much cooler and nicer :) -- -==- | ==-- _ | ---==---(_)__ __ __ Marc Lehmann +-- --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / [EMAIL PROTECTED] |e| -=/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ XX11-RIPE --+ The choice of a GNU generation | | ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] the user installer
Hi, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The information about the files that are installed in the user The dialog tells you what the names of the files that are going to be installed but not their purpose or roughly how much space they will take. You need to play with the dialog a little more. It does tell you about the purpose of the files. It does only tell the interested user, but it does so. The user does not need to know about the General Public License (it does not apply unless you want to distribute modified versions). I know why developers want it there (evangelism) but it is annoying when Proprietary crap spews non essential license information at you (which most users ignore anyway) something most developers prefer not to copy. The point is that the GPL explicitely asks to present the user with this copyright notice on very startup. I think it is good style to do so at the very first startup at least. Find it annoying, I find it amusing and it definitely doesn't hurt. It will be a day or two before I can build from CVS and look at the changes that you said have been recently made. I dont see any mention in the Changelog yet http://cvs.gnome.org/lxr/source/gimp/ChangeLog The changes are not in CVS yet. The GIMP already does hide complexity in many ways, the GIMP has a menu item to Rotate 90 degrees, would you argue that Rotate is enough and that users are perfectly able to specify 90 degrees if they want it? This is a bad example since there are other reasons for this being a separate menu entry. Take the example of Red Eye correction, you can do Red Eye correction in the GIMP but many programs have a dialog specifically for doing this task which makes things easier but does not make the program any less powerful. We would certainly be happy to include such a dialog. I don't see your point here. We are constantly improving GIMP all over the place. I just don't see why we should put valuable developers time in removing features that have been added for a good reason in the first place. The user install dialog was added because it was needed. It serves its role, it works, there are hundreds of places where developers effort is better spent than in removing it. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] the user installer
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Sven Neumann wrote: The point is that the GPL explicitely asks to present the user with You are telling me that most of the programs in Gnome and KDE are wrong and the GIMP is right. I will go and read the GPL again and I will read the GPL FAQ and see if I can figure out where is this explicit requirement to display the license. this copyright notice on very startup. I think it is good style to do so at the very first startup at least. Find it annoying, I find it amusing and it definitely doesn't hurt. The changes are not in CVS yet. There was no way for me to know what the recent changes you made are, could you please say what they are? This is a bad example since there are other reasons for this being a separate menu entry. Bad example, fine I'll try another. The GIMP hides information, the GIMP hides the menus in a context/right click menu instead of up front in Menu (at least until recently, now there is at least an option which I am very thankful for). This is hiding useful information, this is adding one extra click to many operations. Many gimp users swear by hiding this information away and many more swear at it. I believe the standard excuse is screen space, but if screen space is really important to you then you would run the GIMP in fullscreen view (with or without a menubar*) which gets rid of the pixels wasted by the window manager (another recent addition it seems). (* Photoshop allows a menubar in fullscreen mode which really allows you to make the most of the available space and still have the convenience of a menubar. If the GIMP does I have not yet figured out how to keep the menubar turned on in Fullscreen mode) Take the example of Red Eye correction, you can do Red Eye correction in the GIMP but many programs have a dialog specifically for doing this task which makes things easier but does not make the program any less powerful. I thought this might be a better example of how hiding unnecessary detail make an application more useful not less useful. If asking all these questions at startup is such a good idea why not ask the users even more questions, why not get them to set every preference? If this is such a good idea why are no other Gnome or KDE programs doing this? Does the operating system or distribution you use include many programs that ask you many questions before you are allowed to use them for the first time? just don't see why we should put valuable developers time in removing I am not asking you to do it. I am asking you to let it happen. The attitude I keep encountering is a strong resistance to progress. I know I probably should have fough for these changes earlier in the 1.3.x cycle but most distributions still ship Gimp 1.2.x. The bulk of GIMP users are not using 1.3.x yet. For most users the changes are going to be quite dramatic anyway which is why I dont understand why my suggestions are so contraversial. I want you to accept that changes like these could and should be made and to stop dragging your heels just because that is the way things are now and have been before instead of giving real reasons for things being the way they are. If you were more receptive then I would be able to go off and worry about getting a suitable patch done (by me or with help or whatever). Sincerely Alan Horkan. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] the user installer
Hi, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are telling me that most of the programs in Gnome and KDE are wrong and the GIMP is right. I will go and read the GPL again and I will read the GPL FAQ and see if I can figure out where is this explicit requirement to display the license. You will certainly find it since it is pretty clear. Almost all GUI applications ignore it however and the GIMP isn't any better. If we would take this really really seriously, we'd have to add a GPL disclaimer to the splash screen. There was no way for me to know what the recent changes you made are, could you please say what they are? I already said that the changes are minor. Basically some UI polishing, nothing that would be worth calling a change. (* Photoshop allows a menubar in fullscreen mode which really allows you to make the most of the available space and still have the convenience of a menubar. If the GIMP does I have not yet figured out how to keep the menubar turned on in Fullscreen mode) Go to the menu and toggle View Menubar. How did you miss this? I am not asking you to do it. I am asking you to let it happen. As I said, the user installation dialog was added for a number of reasons. I don't see why I should let it disappear for no good reason. The attitude I keep encountering is a strong resistance to progress. Sorry, but removing features looks more like a regression to me. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] the user installer
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:25:22 +0200 Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The attitude I keep encountering is a strong resistance to progress. Sorry, but removing features looks more like a regression to me. I agree, but if on the second window there is 2 buttons, one to skip the other installation window and one to continue as it is now, is this a regression ? The fact is that people are not stupid but 95% use only 5% of the nice features of Gimp and don't need special settings. Then I'd prefer to see some other settings in the installation process like the default interpolation. @+ Raymond ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] the user installer
Hi, Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117010 Sven closed my bug report suggesting removing or reducing the user installer. I have moved it to NeedInfo, as I hope with more information you can be convinced it is worth reopening. I did not close your report. I marked it as a duplicate of bug #113165 because the issue has already been discussed there. At the very least the second and third pages about the files that are getting installed could be removed The information about the files that are installed in the user directory is about the most important part of this dialog. The installation log may be unneeded in case of success but I don't think we should just drop a number of files in the user directory. Unlike the GNOME developers we don't expect our users to be stupid. We put a lot of effort into writing user-editable configuration files. We try to document what the user can do with her personal gimp directory. The user installation dialog is an important part of this. It shows the user that there are files to manipulate, directories to add to, things to look at it. Hiding this information would not improve anything. At most all you would need say is one sentence, something like GIMP will need to install configuration files which take up roughly 500 kb. The documentation could explain what these files are for those who want to know more. Which documentation? At the moment the user installation dialog is the best documentation we have about this topic. Unless you write a better documentation, it won't be removed. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] the user installer
On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 11:23:57AM +0200, Sven Neumann wrote: The information about the files that are installed in the user directory is about the most important part of this dialog. The installation log may be unneeded in case of success but I don't think we should just drop a number of files in the user directory. Unlike the GNOME developers we don't expect our users to be stupid. We put a lot of effort into writing user-editable configuration files. We try to document what the user can do with her personal gimp directory. The user installation dialog is an important part of this. It shows the user that there are files to manipulate, directories to add to, things to look at it. Hiding this information would not improve anything. What about Welcome to the GIMP! Configuration files has been installed into [wherever they were put]. You may want to take a look there; there are plenty of possibilities for configuration. (or something along those lines). I agree that the first-time installation should be shortened -- most users simply don't need an exact DPI setting for their screen, and having to go out searching for CDs or whatever is perceived as annoying. :-) /* Steinar */ -- Homepage: http://www.sesse.net/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] the user installer
On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 11:23:57AM +0200, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: we should just drop a number of files in the user directory. Unlike the GNOME developers we don't expect our users to be stupid. We put a One need not be stupid to not understand the dialog, though. Even experienced artists (== non-stupid) might not understand, nor even care. lot of effort into writing user-editable configuration files. We try to document what the user can do with her personal gimp directory. The Hmm.. yes, that makes perfect sense, but I always wondered why it is hidden inside a dialog I see exactly once, when installing gimp. That dialog is hidden quite perfectly, and users won't normally ever see them again. Just extracting this info into the help pages would probably help, since people are NOT interested in customizing rc files when they have never seen te program running, since they simply can't know what they should customize. to look at it. Hiding this information would not improve anything. Absolutely true. But right now this information is quite hidden to most users. The dialog is great and much better than a html help page for example, but it's presented at a time people will have no clue what it means. -- -==- | ==-- _ | ---==---(_)__ __ __ Marc Lehmann +-- --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / [EMAIL PROTECTED] |e| -=/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ XX11-RIPE --+ The choice of a GNU generation | | ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] the user installer
Hi, Steinar H. Gunderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What about Welcome to the GIMP! Configuration files has been installed into [wherever they were put]. You may want to take a look there; there are plenty of possibilities for configuration. (or something along those lines). That would mean to throw away the perfectly good (and already translated) documentation that is available. I don't think a simplification of the user installation warrants such a waste of resources. I agree that the first-time installation should be shortened -- most users simply don't need an exact DPI setting for their screen, and having to go out searching for CDs or whatever is perceived as annoying. :-) I would agree with you if we would force the user to calibrate her monitor. But please note that you can go thru the full user installation process by hitting the default button 5 times. Now compare this to the installer of whatever windows software. It's just silly to say that the GIMP user installation would be overly complex or annoying. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] the user installer
Hi, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann ) writes: Just extracting this info into the help pages would probably help, since people are NOT interested in customizing rc files when they have never seen te program running, since they simply can't know what they should customize. Good plan. But what help pages are you refering to? The gimp-help project seems abandoned and I fear we will not be able to ship 2.0 with any help pages whatsoever. to look at it. Hiding this information would not improve anything. Absolutely true. But right now this information is quite hidden to most users. The dialog is great and much better than a html help page for example, but it's presented at a time people will have no clue what it means. Perhaps we should show it on every startup then ? Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] the user installer
Sven Neumann wrote: I would agree with you if we would force the user to calibrate her monitor. But please note that you can go thru the full user installation process by hitting the default button 5 times. Now compare this to the installer of whatever windows software. It's just silly to say that the GIMP user installation would be overly complex or annoying. Seven said it all here. The one important fact for clueless users is that the install works by clicking on the default button. I find myself quite oftenly cliking them, when I run the GIMP from a CD-ROM linux distro, like Knoppix, for demonstration purposes, and even them it's not a burdden. One can go through them while saying And here I will show you why you won't miss your pirate copy of Photoshop Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] the user installer
On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 20:50:14 +0100 (BST) Alan Horkan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The user does not need to know about the General Public License (it does not apply unless you want to distribute modified versions). The GPL also applies to unmodified programs. For example, users may not give copies of the binaries to other without telling them that it is GPL-ed and giving them access to the sources. I am not a great fan of licenses either, but from a legal point it is really important to inform all users about their license. greetings, Ernst Lippe ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
