Re: Dynamic Shortcuts - was Re: [Gimp-user] GIMP at COMDEX
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:01:04 -0600 (CST) "Eric Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Oh, I forgot to mention that I have Suriphobia. Then Getrude is your patron(ess) saint: http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintg14.htm -- Life is an offensive, directed against the repetitious mechanism of the Universe. --Alfred North Whitehead (1861-1947) ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: Dynamic Shortcuts - was Re: [Gimp-user] GIMP at COMDEX
> You are a Gimp 'power user' and you are probably a good keyboard player, Basically, there are people who utilize mnemonic use and there are those who don't. It's nothing to do with the Gimp. > ALT-L,C,C sounds not like easy Yeah, that does look a little rough out of context. However, as you type 'ALT-L,C,C' you will think 'Alt-L(evels)-C(olors)-C(urves)' as you watch the menus pop by. After a while, mnemonic combinations becomes an unconscious flick of the wrist as you become particularily comfortable with them. And there's a logic to it - a logic in how you 'locate' any given menu item within the menu tree. People who don't use mnemonics remind me of people who never learned to touch type. They get the job done, but it's inefficient as hell. Same goes for those who don't use mnemonics - once your hand leaves the keyboard to grab for the mouse, you lose your momentum. Granted you could argue that the Gimp is mouse intensive. And obviously there are some things you simply must use the mouse for, but some people would be surprised just how much (and how quickly) you can get work done in the Gimp by extreme keyboard utilization. (wow... that could be a new X Game..) > Then three letters > to memorize for each function to call it's not easy. I wouldn't recommend using mnemonics for each function either. I'd keyboard shortcut as much as possible. The few stragglers are where mnemonics step in to save the day. If you use keyboard shortcuts extensively, then the rest of the menu functions you need to get to can be handled competently by mnemonics. Shit, did I say too much? Oh, I forgot to mention that I have Suriphobia. Eric Pierce Ps. Did someone claim mnemonics were ergonomic? Maybe they are somehow. > On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:02:17 +0100 > Jakub Steiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> >> I usually use features from the layer menu without adding shortcuts for >> them. A simple Alt+L,C,C gets me the curve tool, Alt+L,C,L the levels >> tool. There's a couple of functions I use as often. Mnemonics are a >> default so wherever I go, they work (on the same locale). >> > ALT-L,C,C sounds not like easy and ergonomic to me. Don't know for you > but for me ALT-L with only one hand is not ergonomic. Then three letters > to memorize for each function to call it's not easy. > And for the localisation I hope (but I am not sure ) that all the > translator > really check all menus and dialogs to avoid letters duplications. > >> So please don't play down their usefulness. I love them. >> > You are a Gimp 'power user' and you are probably a good keyboard player, > no doubt that you can achieve something powerful with mnemonics. > But you probably understand that consedering the wide range of Gimp users > and > the world of artists it's hard for me to imagine a large usefulness. > > @+ > Raymond ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: Dynamic Shortcuts - was Re: [Gimp-user] GIMP at COMDEX
On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 19:02:17 +0100 Jakub Steiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I usually use features from the layer menu without adding shortcuts for > them. A simple Alt+L,C,C gets me the curve tool, Alt+L,C,L the levels > tool. There's a couple of functions I use as often. Mnemonics are a > default so wherever I go, they work (on the same locale). > ALT-L,C,C sounds not like easy and ergonomic to me. Don't know for you but for me ALT-L with only one hand is not ergonomic. Then three letters to memorize for each function to call it's not easy. And for the localisation I hope (but I am not sure ) that all the translator really check all menus and dialogs to avoid letters duplications. > So please don't play down their usefulness. I love them. > You are a Gimp 'power user' and you are probably a good keyboard player, no doubt that you can achieve something powerful with mnemonics. But you probably understand that consedering the wide range of Gimp users and the world of artists it's hard for me to imagine a large usefulness. @+ Raymond ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: Dynamic Shortcuts - was Re: [Gimp-user] GIMP at COMDEX
On Thu, 2003-11-13 at 23:12, Raymond Ostertag wrote: > Because mnemonics are there now. they gives a lot of work for the > translators, > for almost nothing ... Who really use mnemonics ? (OK enough noise) I hear this a lot of time. Apart from having stuff accessible with a keyboard easily, here's one example when mnemonics/access keys rock. You surely appreciate shortcuts. Everybody knows how sweet they are for accessing most used functions. But there is a limited number of shortcuts until they become too obscure. They are flat keycombos. Mnemonics on the other hand are structured/nested. You can memorize access keys (sequences of keys) for features you use often, but not _TOO_ often. I usually use features from the layer menu without adding shortcuts for them. A simple Alt+L,C,C gets me the curve tool, Alt+L,C,L the levels tool. There's a couple of functions I use as often. Mnemonics are a default so wherever I go, they work (on the same locale). So please don't play down their usefulness. I love them. I love the dynamic shortcuts too btw. I'd say I can't imagine a shortcut editor more user-friendly than the dynamic shortcuts hack. cheers -- Jakub Steiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: Dynamic Shortcuts - was Re: [Gimp-user] GIMP at COMDEX
Hi, Raymond Ostertag <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > It's disable by default in Gimp2. Was'nt so in Gimp1. That's all. > Joao is rigth there. Perhaps right about the final result but you should also know what has happened under the hood. As I said, dynamic keybindings are a GTK+ feature. Because it has lots of drawbacks, the GTK+ developers decided to disable it for GTK+-2.0. So what the GIMP developers did was to reenable it. That's the facts; please don't put this wrong. > > The GTK+ developer decided that the feature is > > more harmful than useful and I tend to agree. You outlined the major > > drawback yourself: > > > > "by hitting a non conflicting key combination when the desired menu > > item is highlighted". > > > Because mnemonics are there now. they gives a lot of work for the > translators, for almost nothing ... Who really use mnemonics ? (OK > enough noise) Mnemonics have been requested by the people that use GIMP a lot for their daily work. You will agree that it is indeed a useful feature if you ever get the chance to see how for example Jimmac makes use of it. And you misunderstood me here. Non-conflicting key was refering to a key that isn't assigned as a shortcut elsewhere. That is the major problem of the current implementation of dynamic shortcuts. There is no warning and no possibility to cancel or undo the operation if you reassign an already assigned shortcut. Please don't get me wrong. I know how important the dynamic shortcuts are. It's just that the current implementation sucks and that it I consider it more harmful than useful for the casual user. The power users can reenable it in the preferences. That's why we added the possibility to do that. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: Dynamic Shortcuts - was Re: [Gimp-user] GIMP at COMDEX
Hi, "Joao S. O. Bueno" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > What could be done, and this could go in right now, is a rewrite of > the tooltip for "Preferences->interface->Dynamic Keyboard Shortcuts" > Currently it is "when enabled you can change keyboard shortcuts to > menu items on the fly.". Appending "by hitting a non conflicting key > combination when the desired menu item is highlighted". Joan, you know that you are supposed to send a patch to Bugzilla if you want this to be changed. Otherwise your suggestion will likely be forgotten. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: Dynamic Shortcuts - was Re: [Gimp-user] GIMP at COMDEX
On 13 Nov 2003 18:31:26 +0100 Sven Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > > "Joao S. O. Bueno" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > there was enough noise here (on gimp-devel, at least) when it was > > disabled by default. > > we didn't disable it. > It's disable by default in Gimp2. Was'nt so in Gimp1. That's all. Joao is rigth there. > The GTK+ developer decided that the feature is > more harmful than useful and I tend to agree. You outlined the major > drawback yourself: > > "by hitting a non conflicting key combination when the desired menu > item is highlighted". > Because mnemonics are there now. they gives a lot of work for the translators, for almost nothing ... Who really use mnemonics ? (OK enough noise) > There is no way you can figure out what a non-conflicting key > combination is. If there happens to be a conflict, the keybinding is > silently reassigned. This is a long-standing issue and it's a shame > that it wasn't resolved for 2.0. > > The other point is that the feature is so well hidden that 99% of our > users will never figure out that it is there, let alone how to use it. > Well give this nice feature a chance instead of hidding it more. 99 % of users will never figure out that it is there ? That's not true. I think that the potential of user of this feature is more that 30%. How many for mnemonics this stone age feature ? 1% ?? (OK enough noise) > > Even more, any such editor would have to replicate the menu > > navigation, but using a different interface.How having to get to the > > same menu options under a different interface could __ever__ be > > considered simpler, or easier, or more mantainable, or more > > intuitive, is a thing to wonder about. > > Press F8 (or whatever) to open the menu editor with the selected menu > item already selected. Nothing simpler than that. Such an editor would > of course allow you to do a lot more things than only reassigning > shortcuts. You could for example add a menu with your favorite > functions so you don't need to go down several levels in the menu > hierarchy to access them. > Fine, we need that ! But this has nothing to do with reassign dynamically the shortcut, because 'dynamic' is not your favorites, that is what you need more at the moment in a session. Both are useful and really important in a huge program like Gimp where the Filters/Script-fu/Python-fu/and more from internet... menus are some kind of bazaar. > > That will make it better than any separated shortcut editor I can > > think of. Anyway, if a shortcut editor is in the plans (and nothing > > was said on this or the devel list before), the current toggleable > > dynamic assignment should be kept. > > We won't see a menu editor in 2.0 but certainly in 2.2 and I am very > sure that this has been mentioned on the list. > @+ Raymond ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: Dynamic Shortcuts - was Re: [Gimp-user] GIMP at COMDEX
Hi, "Joao S. O. Bueno" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > there was enough noise here (on gimp-devel, at least) when it was > disabled by default. we didn't disable it. The GTK+ developer decided that the feature is more harmful than useful and I tend to agree. You outlined the major drawback yourself: "by hitting a non conflicting key combination when the desired menu item is highlighted". There is no way you can figure out what a non-conflicting key combination is. If there happens to be a conflict, the keybinding is silently reassigned. This is a long-standing issue and it's a shame that it wasn't resolved for 2.0. The other point is that the feature is so well hidden that 99% of our users will never figure out that it is there, let alone how to use it. > Even more, any such editor would have to replicate the menu > navigation, but using a different interface.How having to get to the > same menu options under a different interface could __ever__ be > considered simpler, or easier, or more mantainable, or more > intuitive, is a thing to wonder about. Press F8 (or whatever) to open the menu editor with the selected menu item already selected. Nothing simpler than that. Such an editor would of course allow you to do a lot more things than only reassigning shortcuts. You could for example add a menu with your favorite functions so you don't need to go down several levels in the menu hierarchy to access them. > That will make it better than any separated shortcut editor I can > think of. Anyway, if a shortcut editor is in the plans (and nothing > was said on this or the devel list before), the current toggleable > dynamic assignment should be kept. We won't see a menu editor in 2.0 but certainly in 2.2 and I am very sure that this has been mentioned on the list. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Dynamic Shortcuts - was Re: [Gimp-user] GIMP at COMDEX
Hi... On Thursday 13 November 2003 2:15 pm, Sven Neumann wrote: > "Joao S. O. Bueno" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Dynamic keys assignment. > > > > Don't forget to show that extensively. IMHO, it is THE feature > > that allows for a fast work flow in The GIMP. > > That's not even a GIMP feature but implemented on the GTK+ level > (except some parts like saving the changed keybindings across > sessions). Apart from that it's a lousy hack, it's disabled by > default, very unintuitive and should be replaced by a menu editor > better sooner than later. So, IMO, you better don't show it. > > > Sven Come on, there was enough noise here (on gimp-devel, at least) when it was disabled by default. Before switching to a linux box at work, I used CorelPhotoPaint there..the "menu editor" in that software,a fancy GUI, completely fails to be usefull at all, taking tenths of clicks and browsing through tenths of "informational strings" - total garbage - to change a single shortcut. Even more, any such editor would have to replicate the menu navigation, but using a different interface.How having to get to the same menu options under a different interface could __ever__ be considered simpler, or easier, or more mantainable, or more intuitive, is a thing to wonder about. What could be done, and this could go in right now, is a rewrite of the tooltip for "Preferences->interface->Dynamic Keyboard Shortcuts" Currently it is "when enabled you can change keyboard shortcuts to menu items on the fly.". Appending "by hitting a non conflicting key combination when the desired menu item is highlighted". That will make it better than any separated shortcut editor I can think of. Anyway, if a shortcut editor is in the plans (and nothing was said on this or the devel list before), the current toggleable dynamic assignment should be kept. regards, JS -><- ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] GIMP at COMDEX
Hi, "Joao S. O. Bueno" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Dynamic keys assignment. > > Don't forget to show that extensively. IMHO, it is THE feature that > allows for a fast work flow in The GIMP. That's not even a GIMP feature but implemented on the GTK+ level (except some parts like saving the changed keybindings across sessions). Apart from that it's a lousy hack, it's disabled by default, very unintuitive and should be replaced by a menu editor better sooner than later. So, IMO, you better don't show it. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] GIMP at COMDEX
Dynamic keys assignment. Don't forget to show that extensively. IMHO, it is THE feature that allows for a fast work flow in The GIMP. Paths..the new paths drawing and lib-art stroking is great too, as is the fact that they save to .svg. Regards, JS -><- ___ Gimp-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
