Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies
Hi Kevin, Selon Kevin Myers [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I *completely* disagree with Jozsef regarding elimination of the transformation dialogues that allow numeric input. While these dialog boxes may not be very useful in Jozsef's workflow, they are *extremely* useful in mine, where graphics objects and images must be sized to exact numeric specifications, not according to how they look. In fact the gimp would be almost completely useless for my purposes without these dialogs. Whether Jozsef's suggestion of a single transformation box could be practical for all of these, I can't say. At best, these inputs belong in the tool options. At worst, they're internal details exposed in the interface, and should more or less be invisible. Eliminating these dialogs, and the crop tool's pop-up, are high priorities for 2.4 as far as I am concerned. Kevin, you might like them, but as someone who regularly gives tutorials in the GIMP to people, and one of the most common tasks is reframing or rotating a bad photo, these dialogs are completely confusing, and most people don't want them. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary Lyon, France ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies
Hi Dave, I might not have a serious problem with moving these inputs to the tools options, though I don't know how much more cumbersome that would make use of these tools for folks like me, especially considering that these really are inputs, not options. In my usage these inputs are used almost every single time that I use these tools. Perhaps a tool option could be provided that would simply enable/disable the display of these values? I strongly disagree with you with regard to considering these inputs as simply internal details exposed in the interface. If you eliminate the ability to provide these inputs, you make will make the GIMP almost totally useless for folks like me who use the GIMP for technical illustration and image manipulation purposes, rather than as a paint program or for photo touchup work. I don't doubt that your experiences are true, however they are limited to the realm of your own experience and expertise, and may not apply to many folks who are using the GIMP for other purposes. I implore you to please consider the rest of us, and not to limit the GIMP according to your seemingly paint/photo centric view. s/KAM - Original Message - From: Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Kevin Myers [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Kevin Myers [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies Hi Kevin, Selon Kevin Myers [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I *completely* disagree with Jozsef regarding elimination of the transformation dialogues that allow numeric input. While these dialog boxes may not be very useful in Jozsef's workflow, they are *extremely* useful in mine, where graphics objects and images must be sized to exact numeric specifications, not according to how they look. In fact the gimp would be almost completely useless for my purposes without these dialogs. Whether Jozsef's suggestion of a single transformation box could be practical for all of these, I can't say. At best, these inputs belong in the tool options. At worst, they're internal details exposed in the interface, and should more or less be invisible. Eliminating these dialogs, and the crop tool's pop-up, are high priorities for 2.4 as far as I am concerned. Kevin, you might like them, but as someone who regularly gives tutorials in the GIMP to people, and one of the most common tasks is reframing or rotating a bad photo, these dialogs are completely confusing, and most people don't want them. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary Lyon, France ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies
Hi, One of the things I was talking about in my previous email will be clearer if you look at this screenshot I made of Gimp. http://jozmak.heydo.com/wallpapers/screensavers.htm Look at all the wasted space underneath the tool icons. That area offers itself for all kinds of useful option dialog boxes. There are so much unused space there that if it would be smartly utilized Gimp could be made one of the most intuitive interface with the best interactive tool sets. jozsefmak ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies
Hi, Jozsef Mak [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One of the things I was talking about in my previous email will be clearer if you look at this screenshot I made of Gimp. http://jozmak.heydo.com/wallpapers/screensavers.htm Look at all the wasted space underneath the tool icons. I suggest you get rid of it then. You can disable the color area and brushes/gradient/pattern indicator in the toolbox. Try using a Colors dock as a replacement for the color area. Sven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies
From: Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jozsef Mak [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 19:56:27 +0100 Hi, Jozsef Mak [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One of the things I was talking about in my previous email will be clearer if you look at this screenshot I made of Gimp. http://jozmak.heydo.com/wallpapers/screensavers.htm Look at all the wasted space underneath the tool icons. I suggest you get rid of it then. You can disable the color area and brushes/gradient/pattern indicator in the toolbox. Try using a Colors dock as a replacement for the color area. My idea was not to get rid of that space but to populate it with useful information, which are presently scattered in the various transformation windows (degree of rotation, width, height and so on). If that information would be in plain view at all times, transforming objects interactively would be much less complex. jozsefmak ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies
Jozsef Mak wrote: My idea was not to get rid of that space but to populate it with useful information, which are presently scattered in the various transformation windows (degree of rotation, width, height and so on). If that information would be in plain view at all times, transforming objects interactively would be much less complex. You could start by implementing dockables (the things like e.g. the layers dialog etc... that are grouped in the docks) for the transform tool dialogs. Of course, you would need some infrastructure, like docking horizontally, too. Not neccessarily a small task, but it will surely provide you with some knowledge about GIMP's user interface. HTH, Michael -- The GIMP http://www.gimp.org | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp Wiki http://wiki.gimp.org | .de: http://gimpforum.de Plug-ins http://registry.gimp.org | ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies
From: Michael Schumacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2004 22:53:10 +0100 Jozsef Mak wrote: My idea was not to get rid of that space but to populate it with useful information, which are presently scattered in the various transformation windows (degree of rotation, width, height and so on). If that information would be in plain view at all times, transforming objects interactively would be much less complex. You could start by implementing dockables (the things like e.g. the layers dialog etc... that are grouped in the docks) for the transform tool dialogs. Of course, you would need some infrastructure, like docking horizontally, too. Not neccessarily a small task, but it will surely provide you with some knowledge about GIMP's user interface. I am not a programmer but a graphic designer. My intention was to provide useful feedback that can help fine-tuning Gimp. From my point of view designing software is like designing a car, which should serve the driver rather than the auto mechanic. Of course, there are many types of driversweekend drivers, racecar drivers and so on; like software users; there are hobbyists and professionals. All types have different expectations. If you use a program professionally you want it to perform as efficient and smoothly as possible. I look at Gimp from this point of view. I understand that occasional users and hobbyists have different views, which is OK. But here the question is what do we want Gimp to become in the future. jozsefmak - The GIMP http://www.gimp.org | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp Wiki http://wiki.gimp.org | .de: http://gimpforum.de Plug-ins http://registry.gimp.org | ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies
Jozsef Mak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in part: To begin with, I would do away with all transformation dialog boxes (scale, shear, rotation and so on). This is because most of the time, the data displayed in these dialog boxes I have little use. Most of the time I transform objects interactively. This is how things operate in actual work environment as well. (You have almost done the project when the dumb client comes in the office and says, hey, I want that tree on the left smaller. Then you select the tree and hit the scale icon and start scaling; then the client behind your back says, more., even more., still too large. and you keep scaling till the client says ok. There are no width and height sizes or aspect ratio involved in this process; you just scale interactively by feeling out the proper size. This is the same with other transformation tools as well.) Therefore, what I would like to do is just click inside the transformation box border or hit the enter key to confirm the changes. I would make one transformation box, though, where all numeric data could be inputted in the rare occasion I need them. I *completely* disagree with Jozsef regarding elimination of the transformation dialogues that allow numeric input. While these dialog boxes may not be very useful in Jozsef's workflow, they are *extremely* useful in mine, where graphics objects and images must be sized to exact numeric specifications, not according to how they look. In fact the gimp would be almost completely useless for my purposes without these dialogs. Whether Jozsef's suggestion of a single transformation box could be practical for all of these, I can't say. s/KAM ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies
Jozsef Mak wrote: Now that Gimp 2.2 is out, we can start fantasizing about the changes we would like to see in the next release. These are my fantasies. To begin with, I would do away with all transformation dialog boxes (scale, shear, rotation and so on). Already planned, iirc. Next, I would simplify the gradient editor. The following idea is taken from Macromedia. Wouldnt be nice if I could drag and drop color swatches over the small triangles under the gradient ramp and the editor colors would update instantly? Already in bugzilla as an enhancement request, afaik... yep: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=119470 The tool bar, on the left side, has also been bothering me for some time. How about rearranging it in a narrow, horizontal style and clipping it to the top of the screen. This layout would produce more efficiently utilized screen space and a more contemporary look. You can already have this, just stretch the toolbox horizontally. I have already found as being a good idea placing the zoom-setting box at the bottom of the document window; but how about further expanding on this notion either by making use of the entire available space on the bottom panel or creating a second row of panels underneath the document windows menu bar (file, edit, select) and placing option boxes there selection settings, brush settings, airbrush settings and so on. Would clutter each image window, so it's not desirable at the moment. If there is a dock everything to anything in the future, each user could configure it. These are logical places to implement option settings; Photoshop, Corel and Inkscape are already making use of these panels. Well, IMO Inkscape's SDI approch sucks - I tried several times, and still find this very hard to use (maybe it sucks more on Windows than on other platforms?). The toolbar is only partially shown most of the time, undocking it doesn't turn it into a freely resizable window, new windows alwas open at 0,0 ... Not something GIMP should try to imitate... -- The GIMP http://www.gimp.org | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp Wiki http://wiki.gimp.org | .de: http://gimpforum.de Plug-ins http://registry.gimp.org | ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies
Kevin Myers wrote: I *completely* disagree with Jozsef regarding elimination of the transformation dialogues that allow numeric input. While these dialog boxes may not be very useful in Jozsef's workflow, they are *extremely* useful in mine, where graphics objects and images must be sized to exact numeric specifications, not according to how they look. In fact the gimp would be almost completely useless for my purposes without these dialogs. Whether Jozsef's suggestion of a single transformation box could be practical for all of these, I can't say. IIRC the idea was to make the display of these dialogs a tool option. HTH, Michael -- The GIMP http://www.gimp.org | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp Wiki http://wiki.gimp.org | .de: http://gimpforum.de Plug-ins http://registry.gimp.org | ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies
From: Andreas Waechter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jozsef Mak [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 23:11:15 +0100 To begin with, I would do away with all transformation dialog boxes (scale, shear, rotation and so on). This is because most of the time, the data displayed in these dialog boxes I have little use. Most of the time I transform objects interactively. Oh, because YOU don't use the numeric input fields, they should be removed for EVERYONE? I do not use them always, but sometimes I need to do exact rotation/shear/scale operations - these would be hard work to do without the numeric input fields. In all the cases where I do not need the numeric input fields, it is very easy just to ignore them and work without them. This is why I recommended creating a panel for options where the dimensions of the object can be traced as you interactively transform them. Like in Photoshop. Or there is a more elegant way to solve this, like many 3D programs do. As soon as you start rotating an object the numeric values appear on the screen where you can look them up at any moment; when you release the mouse the transformation is done. Learn about configuring Gimp ... I tried to reshape the tool box horizontally but it didnt look good to me. I still experiment with it to see that perhaps I missed something. jozsefmak Andreas ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies
From: Michael Schumacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Holiday fantasies Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2004 22:33:01 +0100 Jozsef Mak wrote: Now that Gimp 2.2 is out, we can start fantasizing about the changes we would like to see in the next release. These are my fantasies. To begin with, I would do away with all transformation dialog boxes (scale, shear, rotation and so on). Already planned, iirc. Next, I would simplify the gradient editor. The following idea is taken from Macromedia. Wouldn�t be nice if I could drag and drop color swatches over the small triangles under the gradient ramp and the editor colors would update instantly? Already in bugzilla as an enhancement request, afaik... yep: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=119470 The tool bar, on the left side, has also been bothering me for some time. How about rearranging it in a narrow, horizontal style and clipping it to the top of the screen. This layout would produce more efficiently utilized screen space and a more contemporary look. You can already have this, just stretch the toolbox horizontally. I have already found as being a good idea placing the zoom-setting box at the bottom of the document window; but how about further expanding on this notion either by making use of the entire available space on the bottom panel or creating a second row of panels underneath the document windows menu bar (file, edit, select�) and placing option boxes there� selection settings, brush settings, airbrush settings and so on. Would clutter each image window, so it's not desirable at the moment. If there is a dock everything to anything in the future, each user could configure it. These are logical places to implement option settings; Photoshop, Corel and Inkscape are already making use of these panels. Well, IMO Inkscape's SDI approch sucks - I tried several times, and still find this very hard to use (maybe it sucks more on Windows than on other platforms?). The toolbar is only partially shown most of the time, undocking it doesn't turn it into a freely resizable window, new windows alwas open at 0,0 ... Not something GIMP should try to imitate... Hi Michael, Thats great that most of my wishes are already on the list. It seems I am a bit behind the trend; this makes me feel definitely better about Gimp, which I like a lot even if on the job I have to work with Photoshop. Smooth interface and intuitive tool usage is a definite plus, when it comes to seducing Photoshop users to Gimp. I do my part; whenever I get the chance I always try to persuade them to use Gimp as an alternative to Photoshop. But most of the designers in the business world are rather square headed and few willing to bother experimenting with other programs after work. They are picky too when it comes to learning new features because they think Photoshop is the next best thing to paradise. More Gimp complies with their expectations the easier it becomes to convince them to try it out. jozsefmak The GIMP http://www.gimp.org | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp Wiki http://wiki.gimp.org | .de: http://gimpforum.de Plug-ins http://registry.gimp.org | ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
