Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop
On Mon, May 09, 2005 at 03:08:08AM +, Kent Tong wrote: Carol Spears carol at gimp.org writes: -- Compare to PhotoShop, managing the layers is not that easy. You can define layers to groups in Photoshop. You can even target an action to a group. No group idea in GIMP. it is interesting that photoshop is considered to have better layers control than gimp. if you use gimp more you will see who has the real control of them. Let's take an example. If in an image there are there is a toolbar at the top of it and some icons in a panel at the bottom. In Photoshop, one would have one layer for each tool in the toolbar and then group them to form a toolbar. Similarly, one would have one layer for each icon and then group them to form the panel. The benefit is, one can say move the whole toolbar or the panel easily. the only examples i have are the art i was able to make with TheGIMP for all of these years. if you could provide for me how this layers thing you ask for would improve this. perhaps it would improve my photography. the best way to approach this is to show what the current users can gain. if you can show me an example of some gimp art that could have been improved with this enhancement you ask for, it would be easier to understand your need. carol ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop
On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 09:38 -0700, Carol Spears wrote: On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 09:28:48AM +, Kent Tong wrote: Thanks for all who have replied. Yes, the Chinese problem is bogus. It works as long as the LANG env variable is set. it is interesting that the one time i saw anyone use this photoshop layers effect stuff, i was able to get TheGIMP to produce the same image in less than twenty minutes. that was using a little knowledge of computer graphics (most of which i learned by working with TheGIMP). The key difference is that effects or effect layers give the power to easily change things after they have been done. Nothing is set in stone. The changes are non-destructive giving the freedom to change things in future. This is especially useful when presenting things to clients, which by nature want to change things no matter what you present them :). Larry was also able to draw the Linux penguin without features like layers, yet I'm sure he would have been happy beaing able to make use of them. It's not that things are not achievable. Non-destructive workflows are in my view a very useful functionality worth investigating. cheers -- Jakub Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Novell, Inc. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop
On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 21:59 -0700, Tom Williams wrote: j Mak wrote: Using them you can experiment with various settings without changing the set up of your layer structure. In addition, you can edit your artwork, even months or years after finishing it, simply by altering the Adjustment layer or changing the layer effects parameters. For instance, if I decide at some point that don't want drop shadows anymore, I simply click on the layer effect representing the shadow and I turn it off, or add other effect if I want to. I'm not a PhotoShop user so please excuse the question but how does your example *not* change the setup of the layer structure? If I add a drop shadow to something in Gimp, the drop shadow is in a layer an I show or hide. How is that different from the Adjustment layer you describe? I'm sure it is but I don't know how it differs. :) Hi Tom! The dropshadow effect layer would simply take the alpha mask of the parent layer and apply the blur on that dynamically. So when in GIMP you would have to recreate the dropshadow manually each time you draw on the above layer, with a dynamic dropshadow effect layer, you would get that done automatically. Imagine you would create a set of filters applied on a layer - fill with pattern with keep transparency on, apply displacement map based on blurred copy of the alpha channel, applied bumpmap. And now imagine that sequence being applied every time you paint on a layer automatically. Hope that gives you an idea how layer effects can be useful. cheers -- Jakub Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Novell, Inc. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop
On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 21:59 -0700, Tom Williams wrote: If I add a drop shadow to something in Gimp, the drop shadow is in a layer an I show or hide. How is that different from the Adjustment layer you describe? I'm sure it is but I don't know how it differs. :) The drop shadow, I think, was just an example. What if, instead, I wanted to make a bevel depth of a button deeper? The layers wouldn't help me out, would they? In photoshop however, all I'd have to do is drag a slider! -Gezim ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
RE: [Gimp-user] Re: Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop
Yea, that's the whole idea. Layer effects/styles save you from having to re-create your effects all the the time... plus everything is cleaner because the effect is generated in real-time. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gezim Hoxha Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 4:43 AM To: gimp user Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 21:59 -0700, Tom Williams wrote: If I add a drop shadow to something in Gimp, the drop shadow is in a layer an I show or hide. How is that different from the Adjustment layer you describe? I'm sure it is but I don't know how it differs. :) The drop shadow, I think, was just an example. What if, instead, I wanted to make a bevel depth of a button deeper? The layers wouldn't help me out, would they? In photoshop however, all I'd have to do is drag a slider! -Gezim ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop
Gezim Hoxha wrote: The drop shadow, I think, was just an example. What if, instead, I wanted to make a bevel depth of a button deeper? The layers wouldn't help me out, would they? In photoshop however, all I'd have to do is drag a slider! Gotcha. :) Peace... Tom ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop
On Thursday 05 May 2005 06.16, j Mak wrote: --- Carol Spears [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 09:28:48AM +, Kent Tong wrote: Thanks for all who have replied. Yes, the Chinese problem is bogus. It works as long as the LANG env variable is set. it is interesting that the one time i saw anyone use this photoshop layers effect stuff, i was able to get TheGIMP to produce the same image in less than twenty minutes. that was using a little knowledge of computer graphics (most of which i learned by working with TheGIMP). Carol, You are right that there are ways of working around solutions, but this is not the point. In reality, it seldom happens, if ever, that you come up with an idea, then sit down in front of your computer and realize it in one shot. Rather, artwork, even the simplest ones like web page buttons are the result of experimentation. And this is where the Adjustment layer and the layer effects come in. Using them you can experiment with various settings without changing the set up of your layer structure. In addition, you can edit your artwork, even months or years after finishing it, simply by altering the Adjustment layer or changing the layer effects parameters. For instance, if I decide at some point that don't want drop shadows anymore, I simply click on the layer effect representing the shadow and I turn it off, or add other effect if I want to. By the way Macromedia Fireworks has similar tools but their implementation is totally different; they call them Live Effects. These are extremely useful tools that's why graphic artists like them; they allow an efficient and economical way of creating artwork. I think the Gimp would benefit a great deal from similar features. Regards, jozsefmak ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user Thats one of the problems here: Gimp which is fairly young is compared to an OLDtimer as Photoshop who's been around for ages! Of course graphic artists use photoshop. Its was the only thing available a few years back with any kind of usefullness. Its the same situation as with GNU/Linux itself. It took a few years of collaborate work to get it up to (and even beyond) par with MS Windows. Gimp is developing rather rapidly and as far as i can see, steadily in the same direction. Giv it a little more time and you'll have a piece of software that will exceed even the oldie Photoshop. In lieu of the fact that Gimp and most of the open source software is on free time basis, i'd say Gimp is a KILLER application. And i am sure that it will continue to develop. Just my two cents worth... -- /Rikard Sharing knowledge is the most fundamental act of friendship. Because it is a way you can give something without loosing something. -R. Stallman --- Rikard Johnels email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mob : +46 763 19 76 25 PGP : 0x461CEE56 --- ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop
Thats one of the problems here: Gimp which is fairly young is compared to an OLDtimer as Photoshop who's been around for ages! Of course graphic artists use photoshop. Its was the only thing available a few years back with any kind of usefullness. Its the same situation as with GNU/Linux itself. It took a few years of collaborate work to get it up to (and even beyond) par with MS Windows. Gimp is developing rather rapidly and as far as i can see, steadily in the same direction. Giv it a little more time and you'll have a piece of software that will exceed even the oldie Photoshop. In lieu of the fact that Gimp and most of the open source software is on free time basis, i'd say Gimp is a KILLER application. And i am sure that it will continue to develop. Just my two cents worth... -- /Rikard Comparing TheGIMP with Photoshop is natural, we are looking at the best of open-source vs the best of closed-source (some might suggest PSP or otherwise). People do this all the time. How is this bad? This gives the developers more ideas for improving TheGIMP. Adobe Photoshop also has scripting in the form of Actions. Photoshop CS now has expanded scripting capabilities (AppleScript in OSX; VBScript and JavaScript in Windows) Cheers -joe ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop
In a nutshell, adjustment layers or layer effects are not real layers but something like virtual layers. When you modify an art object using, say an adjustment layer the original artwork remain intact at all time. The adjustments layer doesn't alter the artwork, only simulates the changes. Better, if you later want to modify the artwork just click on the adjustment layer, which brings up the dialog with the original settings that let you further modify the artwork. Otherwise, every change you introduce into the artwork, directly affects the original piece. Hope this clarifies this layer thing. jozsefmak --- Tom Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: j Mak wrote: Using them you can experiment with various settings without changing the set up of your layer structure. In addition, you can edit your artwork, even months or years after finishing it, simply by altering the Adjustment layer or changing the layer effects parameters. For instance, if I decide at some point that don't want drop shadows anymore, I simply click on the layer effect representing the shadow and I turn it off, or add other effect if I want to. I'm not a PhotoShop user so please excuse the question but how does your example *not* change the setup of the layer structure? If I add a drop shadow to something in Gimp, the drop shadow is in a layer an I show or hide. How is that different from the Adjustment layer you describe? I'm sure it is but I don't know how it differs. :) Peace... Tom ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop
On Thu, May 05, 2005 at 11:26:22PM +0800, Joe Ngo wrote: Comparing TheGIMP with Photoshop is natural, we are looking at the best of open-source vs the best of closed-source (some might suggest PSP or otherwise). People do this all the time. How is this bad? This gives the developers more ideas for improving TheGIMP. Adobe Photoshop also has scripting in the form of Actions. Photoshop CS now has expanded scripting capabilities (AppleScript in OSX; VBScript and JavaScript in Windows) that is pretty good. i think they have had access to VBScript for only about a year. TheGIMP will never work with VBScript that quickly. how long has Adobe had legal access to AppleScript and to JavaScript in windows? carol ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop
On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 09:28:48AM +, Kent Tong wrote: Thanks for all who have replied. Yes, the Chinese problem is bogus. It works as long as the LANG env variable is set. it is interesting that the one time i saw anyone use this photoshop layers effect stuff, i was able to get TheGIMP to produce the same image in less than twenty minutes. that was using a little knowledge of computer graphics (most of which i learned by working with TheGIMP). it gets difficult to take the people who absolutely NEED this effects thing. it makes it look like the biggest mistake that gimp made was not to produce intellectually imbred and disfunctional people. these people grew up in all sorts of places and came from many different kinds of humans. the one thing that causes them to be imbred like this is those layers effects. it must be the crack that Adobe sells to them. enjoy TheGIMP, i think that even a Chinease person can learn how to make TheGIMP do the same thing. one extremely unintelligent and rude american (me) was able to. thanks, carol ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop
--- Carol Spears [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, May 04, 2005 at 09:28:48AM +, Kent Tong wrote: Thanks for all who have replied. Yes, the Chinese problem is bogus. It works as long as the LANG env variable is set. it is interesting that the one time i saw anyone use this photoshop layers effect stuff, i was able to get TheGIMP to produce the same image in less than twenty minutes. that was using a little knowledge of computer graphics (most of which i learned by working with TheGIMP). Carol, You are right that there are ways of working around solutions, but this is not the point. In reality, it seldom happens, if ever, that you come up with an idea, then sit down in front of your computer and realize it in one shot. Rather, artwork, even the simplest ones like web page buttons are the result of experimentation. And this is where the Adjustment layer and the layer effects come in. Using them you can experiment with various settings without changing the set up of your layer structure. In addition, you can edit your artwork, even months or years after finishing it, simply by altering the Adjustment layer or changing the layer effects parameters. For instance, if I decide at some point that don't want drop shadows anymore, I simply click on the layer effect representing the shadow and I turn it off, or add other effect if I want to. By the way Macromedia Fireworks has similar tools but their implementation is totally different; they call them Live Effects. These are extremely useful tools that's why graphic artists like them; they allow an efficient and economical way of creating artwork. I think the Gimp would benefit a great deal from similar features. Regards, jozsefmak ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user __ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: Disadvantage of GIMP when compared to Photoshop
j Mak wrote: Using them you can experiment with various settings without changing the set up of your layer structure. In addition, you can edit your artwork, even months or years after finishing it, simply by altering the Adjustment layer or changing the layer effects parameters. For instance, if I decide at some point that don't want drop shadows anymore, I simply click on the layer effect representing the shadow and I turn it off, or add other effect if I want to. I'm not a PhotoShop user so please excuse the question but how does your example *not* change the setup of the layer structure? If I add a drop shadow to something in Gimp, the drop shadow is in a layer an I show or hide. How is that different from the Adjustment layer you describe? I'm sure it is but I don't know how it differs. :) Peace... Tom ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
