Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-19 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

On Wed, 2008-03-19 at 14:16 +1100, David Hodson wrote:

 Should be easy(-ish) :
 
 Split image into red, green, blue channels.
 Apply lens correction to red and blue channels to align with green.
 Recombine channels.

That would work well if the light was combined out of exactly three
well-defined frequencies, one red, one green, one blue. But that is
usually not the case. It could still be an improvement though...


Sven


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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-18 Thread norman
Thank you very much for trying to help me sort out the problem. It looks
very much as though any procedure would be both complex and time
consuming without any guarantee of success. Therefore, I believe what I
should do is concentrate on photographic techniques with a view to
minimising the chromatic aberration as much as possible. Any advice in
this direction would be very welcome.

Norman

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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-18 Thread Patrick Shanahan
* norman [EMAIL PROTECTED] [03-18-08 09:46]:
 Therefore, I believe what I should do is concentrate on photographic
 techniques with a view to minimising the chromatic aberration as much
 as possible. Any advice in this direction would be very welcome.

Unfortunately, ca is controlled in lense manufacture and design and
has two solutions, software or better glass.  Minimizing ca via
technique would severly limit your scope, imo.

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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-18 Thread norman
 snip 
 
 Unfortunately, ca is controlled in lense manufacture and design and
 has two solutions, software or better glass.  Minimizing ca via
 technique would severly limit your scope, imo.

I would expect most lenses these days to be made such that they do not
cause CA. From what I have read, there is another factor to be taken
into account, the chip responsible for recording the image. I gathered
that small chips are quite prone to CA and the larger the chip the lower
the CA and that it virtually disappears in the 1:1 (35 mm) format. The
camera I am using is an upper end, point and press so perhaps I need a
better camera with a larger chip.

Norman

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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-18 Thread Simon Roberts


- Original Message 
From: norman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:52:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

 snip 
 
 Unfortunately, ca is controlled in lense manufacture and design and
 has two solutions, software or better glass.  Minimizing ca via
 technique would severly limit your scope, imo.

I would expect most lenses these days to be made such that they do not
cause CA. From what I have read, there is another factor to be taken
into account, the chip responsible for recording the image. I gathered
that small chips are quite prone to CA and the larger the chip the lower
the CA and that it virtually disappears in the 1:1 (35 mm) format. The
camera I am using is an upper end, point and press so perhaps I need a
better camera with a larger chip.

---


CA is indeed a function of the lens quality. You're also right that a smaller 
sensor makes CA more visible, that's just simple geometry. If the lens produces 
an abberation of any given size, then if the sensor is half the size, the 
apparent effect of the abberation is doubled.

Unfortunately, only the best lenses have this effect almost entirely 
eliminated. You'll find some that are called Apochromatic or just Apo. They 
tend to be much more expensive than normal lenses (typically called 
achromatic). I have a perfectly respectable, but low-end, Nikon zoom lens 
designed originally for film use that generates what to me is an entirely 
unacceptable amount of CA at the long end of its zoom on my DX-format D-SLR.

Software can certainly help with this, and that other product has this built 
in. Then again, you can buy a couple of really nice lenses for the price you'll 
pay for that product ;

Meanwhile, you're more likely to have trouble because of poor focus, camera 
shake, and other more mundane issues, than you are from CA in general. I'd say 
just forget about it, and focus (sorry ;) on your artistic abilities. Let's 
face it, the lenses that most of the greats used were total junk compared to 
the most basic point and shoot now. See Ken Rockwell's comments on it's not 
the camera at http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/notcamera.htm

Cheers,
Simon

You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a 
man is wise by his questions. — Naguib Mahfouz





  

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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-18 Thread norman

On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 08:13 -0700, Simon Roberts wrote:
 
 - Original Message 
 From: norman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
 Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 8:52:22 AM
 Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration
 
  snip 
  
  Unfortunately, ca is controlled in lense manufacture and design and
  has two solutions, software or better glass.  Minimizing ca via
  technique would severly limit your scope, imo.
 
 I would expect most lenses these days to be made such that they do not
 cause CA. From what I have read, there is another factor to be taken
 into account, the chip responsible for recording the image. I gathered
 that small chips are quite prone to CA and the larger the chip the lower
 the CA and that it virtually disappears in the 1:1 (35 mm) format. The
 camera I am using is an upper end, point and press so perhaps I need a
 better camera with a larger chip.
 
 ---
 
 
 CA is indeed a function of the lens quality. You're also right that a smaller 
 sensor makes CA more visible, that's just simple geometry. If the lens 
 produces an abberation of any given size, then if the sensor is half the 
 size, the apparent effect of the abberation is doubled.
 
 Unfortunately, only the best lenses have this effect almost entirely 
 eliminated. You'll find some that are called Apochromatic or just Apo. 
 They tend to be much more expensive than normal lenses (typically called 
 achromatic). I have a perfectly respectable, but low-end, Nikon zoom lens 
 designed originally for film use that generates what to me is an entirely 
 unacceptable amount of CA at the long end of its zoom on my DX-format D-SLR.
 
 Software can certainly help with this, and that other product has this 
 built in. Then again, you can buy a couple of really nice lenses for the 
 price you'll pay for that product ;
 
 Meanwhile, you're more likely to have trouble because of poor focus, camera 
 shake, and other more mundane issues, than you are from CA in general. I'd 
 say just forget about it, and focus (sorry ;) on your artistic abilities. 
 Let's face it, the lenses that most of the greats used were total junk 
 compared to the most basic point and shoot now. See Ken Rockwell's comments 
 on it's not the camera at http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/notcamera.htm
 
 Cheers,
 Simon
 
 You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a 
 man is wise by his questions. — Naguib Mahfouz

I feel sure that you must be correct. I have never seen any noticeable
fringing or CA effects with my ordinary photography it is only with this
project I set myself of copying a lot of old colour transparencies. In
the old days I used to often feel frustrated at not being able to do a
great deal with colour slides such as I did in my darkroom with black
and white film. Thus, I saw this as chance to catch up on history and at
the same time, maybe, produce some interesting images digitally. It now
looks as though I shall be frustrated yet again.

Norman

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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-18 Thread Bruno Postle
On Tue 18-Mar-2008 at 08:13 -0700, Simon Roberts wrote:

Software can certainly help with this, and that other product has 
this built in. Then again, you can buy a couple of really nice 
lenses for the price you'll pay for that product ;

Not an immediate solution, but 'over at the hugin project' we have a 
demonstrated technique for automatic correction of transverse 
chromatic aberration.  Sponsorship for turning this into an everyday 
tool is available under the Google Summer of Code:

http://wiki.panotools.org/SoC_2008_ideas#tCA_Correction

-- 
Bruno
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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-18 Thread norman

On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 15:46 +, Bruno Postle wrote:
 On Tue 18-Mar-2008 at 08:13 -0700, Simon Roberts wrote:
 
 Software can certainly help with this, and that other product has 
 this built in. Then again, you can buy a couple of really nice 
 lenses for the price you'll pay for that product ;
 
 Not an immediate solution, but 'over at the hugin project' we have a 
 demonstrated technique for automatic correction of transverse 
 chromatic aberration.  Sponsorship for turning this into an everyday 
 tool is available under the Google Summer of Code:
 
 http://wiki.panotools.org/SoC_2008_ideas#tCA_Correction

This seems to assume that the optics are the cause of the CA whereas I
understand that CA is also caused by the chip in e digital camera. Will
this process take care of that?

Norman

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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-18 Thread Simon Roberts

- Original Message 
From: norman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
...
 CA is indeed a function of the lens quality. You're also right that a smaller 
 sensor makes CA more visible, that's just simple geometry. If the lens 
 produces an abberation of any given size, then if the sensor is half the 
 size, the apparent effect of the abberation is doubled.
 
 Unfortunately, only the best lenses have this effect almost entirely 
 eliminated. You'll find some that are called Apochromatic or just Apo. 
 They tend to be much more expensive than normal lenses (typically called 
 achromatic). I have a perfectly respectable, but low-end, Nikon zoom lens 
 designed originally for film use that generates what to me is an entirely 
 unacceptable amount of CA at the long end of its zoom on my DX-format D-SLR.

I feel sure that you must be correct. I have never seen any noticeable
fringing or CA effects with my ordinary photography it is only with this
project I set myself of copying a lot of old colour transparencies. In
the old days I used to often feel frustrated at not being able to do a
great deal with colour slides such as I did in my darkroom with black
and white film. Thus, I saw this as chance to catch up on history and at
the same time, maybe, produce some interesting images digitally. It now
looks as though I shall be frustrated yet again.

Norman

---

Are you copying the slides, or are you scanning them?

If you're using a slide copying attachment and effectively rephotographing them 
onto your digital camera, then the CA of the copying equipment will be a 
factor. On the other hand, if you're scanning them, then CA isn't usually an 
issue, because scanning is a different mechanism entirely. If you're scanning 
and then seeing CA, I believe the CA must be in the original slide. Perhaps you 
just didn't notice before? We do tend to view digital images at much higher 
magnifications than we used to view silver halide images. (To be fair, that 
might not be true of slides though!)

Cheers,
Simon





  

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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-18 Thread Rolf Steinort
On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 16:23 +, norman wrote: 
 On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 15:46 +, Bruno Postle wrote:
  On Tue 18-Mar-2008 at 08:13 -0700, Simon Roberts wrote:
  
  Software can certainly help with this, and that other product has 
  this built in. Then again, you can buy a couple of really nice 
  lenses for the price you'll pay for that product ;
  
  Not an immediate solution, but 'over at the hugin project' we have a 
  demonstrated technique for automatic correction of transverse 
  chromatic aberration.  Sponsorship for turning this into an everyday 
  tool is available under the Google Summer of Code:
  
  http://wiki.panotools.org/SoC_2008_ideas#tCA_Correction
 
 This seems to assume that the optics are the cause of the CA whereas I
 understand that CA is also caused by the chip in e digital camera. Will
 this process take care of that?

The chip doesn't cause CA, it's only the lens. A smaller sensor is more
sensitive for CA, because the pixels are smaller and enlarge every lens
problem. A CA that stays on one pixel in a Nikon D3 (and is invisible)
would cover a lot of pixels on a 1/1.8 chip and would become visible. 


Rolf

http://meetthegimp.org - weekly videopodcast about GIMP and digital
photography


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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-18 Thread Rolf Steinort
On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 15:33 +, norman wrote:

 I feel sure that you must be correct. I have never seen any noticeable
 fringing or CA effects with my ordinary photography it is only with
this
 project I set myself of copying a lot of old colour transparencies. In
 the old days I used to often feel frustrated at not being able to do a
 great deal with colour slides such as I did in my darkroom with black
 and white film. Thus, I saw this as chance to catch up on history and
at
 the same time, maybe, produce some interesting images digitally. It
now
 looks as though I shall be frustrated yet again.
 
 Norman
 

I think your camera is OK, the problem is your close up filter that
you use for enlarging the slides. These things are prone to CA. You can
get away with a lens made out of two glasses (called achromatic and
being expensive), but most of these things are made out of a single
glass and mess up the colours. I never have heard about an apochromatic
lens to put in front of a point and shoot. 

You can try to use your camera without this lens in macro mode and crop
the image later in GIMP. With luck there is enough resolution left. 

Rolf

http://meetthegimp.org - weekly videopodcast about GIMP and digital
photography


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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-18 Thread norman
-

 snip 

 Are you copying the slides, or are you scanning them?
 
 If you're using a slide copying attachment and effectively rephotographing 
 them onto your digital camera, then the CA of the copying equipment will be a 
 factor. On the other hand, if you're scanning them, then CA isn't usually an 
 issue, because scanning is a different mechanism entirely. If you're scanning 
 and then seeing CA, I believe the CA must be in the original slide. Perhaps 
 you just didn't notice before? We do tend to view digital images at much 
 higher magnifications than we used to view silver halide images. (To be fair, 
 that might not be true of slides though!)

I am copying them using my digital camera but, as every slide I have
copied so far has shown some CA somewhere, I am not convinced that CA
was in the slide. So yes, the culprit must be in the hardware. A point
of interest - when the slide is rephotographed it is in the original
cardboard or plastic holder. The images include a small amount of the
frame which has a beautiful fringe all the way round on the inside
shading from green through to violet.

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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-18 Thread Rolf Steinort
On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 16:23 +, norman wrote: 
 On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 15:46 +, Bruno Postle wrote:
  On Tue 18-Mar-2008 at 08:13 -0700, Simon Roberts wrote:
  
  Software can certainly help with this, and that other product has 
  this built in. Then again, you can buy a couple of really nice 
  lenses for the price you'll pay for that product ;
  
  Not an immediate solution, but 'over at the hugin project' we have a 
  demonstrated technique for automatic correction of transverse 
  chromatic aberration.  Sponsorship for turning this into an everyday 
  tool is available under the Google Summer of Code:
  
  http://wiki.panotools.org/SoC_2008_ideas#tCA_Correction
 
 This seems to assume that the optics are the cause of the CA whereas I
 understand that CA is also caused by the chip in e digital camera. Will
 this process take care of that?

The chip doesn't cause CA, it's only the lens. A smaller sensor is more
sensitive for CA, because the pixels are smaller and enlarge every lens
problem. A CA that stays on one pixel in a Nikon D3 (and is invisible)
would cover a lot of pixels on a 1/1.8 chip and would become visible. 


Rolf

http://meetthegimp.org - weekly videopodcast about GIMP and digital
photography


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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-18 Thread Bruno Postle
On Tue 18-Mar-2008 at 16:23 +, norman wrote:

 http://wiki.panotools.org/SoC_2008_ideas#tCA_Correction

This seems to assume that the optics are the cause of the CA whereas I
understand that CA is also caused by the chip in e digital camera. Will
this process take care of that?

Nope.

-- 
Bruno
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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-18 Thread Patrick Shanahan
* norman [EMAIL PROTECTED] [03-18-08 10:53]:
  snip 
  
  Unfortunately, ca is controlled in lense manufacture and design and
  has two solutions, software or better glass.  Minimizing ca via
  technique would severly limit your scope, imo.
 
 I would expect most lenses these days to be made such that they do not
 cause CA. From what I have read, there is another factor to be taken
 into account, the chip responsible for recording the image. I gathered
 that small chips are quite prone to CA and the larger the chip the lower
 the CA and that it virtually disappears in the 1:1 (35 mm) format. The
 camera I am using is an upper end, point and press so perhaps I need a
 better camera with a larger chip.

While this may be correct to some extent, *glass* is a *major* factor.
I can show you ca from my Nikon D3 (a full frame sensor) with a 
70-300G Nikon lense, a *cheap* lense.   
-- 
Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USAHOG # US1244711
http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album:  http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
Registered Linux User #207535@ http://counter.li.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-18 Thread bgw
Simon Roberts wrote:

snip
 See Ken Rockwell's comments on it's not the camera at 
 http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/notcamera.htm
   
An excellent discussion, although Rockwell fails to mention Ansel 
Adams's darkroom artistry (see wikipedia on Ansel Adams and the 
associated reference 18).
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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-18 Thread David Hodson
norman wrote:
 I have been copying some old colour transparencies using my digital
 camera and most of the images produced suffer from chromatic aberration
 somewhere within them. I have tried to find some procedure to remove
 these blemishes but, so far, have not found anything I can get to work.
 All suggestions and how to get round the difficulty will be gratefully
 received.

Should be easy(-ish) :

Split image into red, green, blue channels.
Apply lens correction to red and blue channels to align with green.
Recombine channels.

-- 
David Hodson  --  this night wounds time
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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-17 Thread Chris Mohler
On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:39 PM, norman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I have been copying some old colour transparencies using my digital
  camera and most of the images produced suffer from chromatic aberration
  somewhere within them. I have tried to find some procedure to remove
  these blemishes but, so far, have not found anything I can get to work.
  All suggestions and how to get round the difficulty will be gratefully
  received.

Can you post a small sample image somewhere?

Chris
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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-17 Thread Jeffrey Brent McBeth
On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 03:09:47PM -0500, Chris Mohler wrote:
 On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:39 PM, norman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I have been copying some old colour transparencies using my digital
   camera and most of the images produced suffer from chromatic aberration
   somewhere within them. I have tried to find some procedure to remove
   these blemishes but, so far, have not found anything I can get to work.
   All suggestions and how to get round the difficulty will be gratefully
   received.

Not having worked on this problem in particular, I don't really know.  My
first approximate guess would be to decompose the image into color channels
and apply deblurring filters on the seperate channels.  You should be able
to make reasonable progress with this as as a first order approximation;
all chromatic aberration is, is the different colors blurring different
amounts.

Jeff

-- 

The man who does not read good books has no advantage over 
 the man who cannot read them.
 -- Mark Twain



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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-17 Thread David Gowers
Given a sample image I can be more specific than the following:

1 Decompose the image into LAB channels.
2 Despeckle the AB channels (oilify with low exponent is also an option)
3 Recompose

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 6:44 AM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 03:09:47PM -0500, Chris Mohler wrote:
   On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 1:39 PM, norman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have been copying some old colour transparencies using my digital
 camera and most of the images produced suffer from chromatic aberration
 somewhere within them. I have tried to find some procedure to remove
 these blemishes but, so far, have not found anything I can get to work.
 All suggestions and how to get round the difficulty will be gratefully
 received.

  Not having worked on this problem in particular, I don't really know.  My
  first approximate guess would be to decompose the image into color channels
  and apply deblurring filters on the seperate channels.  You should be able
  to make reasonable progress with this as as a first order approximation;
  all chromatic aberration is, is the different colors blurring different
  amounts.

  Jeff

  --
  
  The man who does not read good books has no advantage over
   the man who cannot read them.
   -- Mark Twain
  

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Re: [Gimp-user] chromatic aberration

2008-03-17 Thread Elwin Estle
I think there used to be a plugin in the registry for doing this, but I can't 
remember
the name of it.  Dunno if it would work in 2.4 or not.


--- norman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I have been copying some old colour transparencies using my digital
 camera and most of the images produced suffer from chromatic aberration
 somewhere within them. I have tried to find some procedure to remove
 these blemishes but, so far, have not found anything I can get to work.
 All suggestions and how to get round the difficulty will be gratefully
 received.
 
 Norman
 
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