Re: [h-cost] Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought
Wow, if you go to page 4, in the top right corner is a man wearing a hat that is almost exactly what everyone has been discussing. (hat/caul with rolled/padded brim, even with a slight point in front)Could women have adopted a man's style? -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of otsisto Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 4:24 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought I had asked Lynn McMasters and she says that it is based off an Italian portrait. http://lynnmcmasters.com/LadyM.html in color and a wee bit larger. http://tinyurl.com/yt6hg9 Now it could be something like this http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Angelo_Bronzino_002.jpg with a caul but it is hard to tell. The Mode in Hats and headdresses might also be of help. Wilcox has a few pillbox drawings from this period. Usually you can find a matching portrait to her drawings if you look around. I have seem many 18C matches in my Turban research. You can see all her drawings from that book on line. http://gallery.villagehatshop.com/gallery/chapter9 She does use different names for what is basically the same thing; Pillbox, Calotte (cap) and velvet bonnet. Maybe that is what people are having trouble with. Lynn De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
Those heavy polyester double-knits! Blecchh! -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 12:14 PM To: h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions I lived in Ann Arbor, Michigan, from 1963 to 1976. As I remember it, skirts got progressively shorter from 1966 to 1969 but the local culture still didn't accept trousers on women. IIRC, the first pantsuits for women were greeted with derision on this side of the Atlantic. Anyhoo, I *loathed* mini-skirts with a deep, abiding passion so I made my first maxi skirt (without a pattern) in 1968/1969, specifically to wear to school (9th grade). It was ankle- length, and I'm proud to say that I was one of the first to wear one in my social circle g. By the time I graduated in 1972, we were all routinely wearing those long dresses with the elastic under the bust (as mentioned by another list-member)--made in wild floral prints and using commercial patterns--when we weren't wearing jeans. While other fashions had been banned at various times, the Ann Arbor schools never bothered to target granny dresses. I do remember that it was a challenge to keep bra straps hidden under those wide necklines! So when I went to college I just stopped wearing the bras By 1974, I had given up wearing skirts entirely and bought pantsuits instead for occasions that called for something nicer than jeans. Anybody wanna talk about pantsuits?? Suzanne [who thinks it is true that the Sixties mostly happened in the Seventies] On Jul 4, 2009, at 1:00 PM, h-costume-requ...@indra.com wrote: From: Hope Greenberg hope.greenb...@uvm.edu Date: July 4, 2009 11:44:14 AM CDT To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions Ah, what fun. I know by the early 70s I had several long dresses for casual wear, but when did the trend start? Well, here are two factoids that might help: In the late 60s Laura Ashley introduced daywear that had a longer length. (see any history of Laura Ashley, wikipedia will do) And my favorite kind of evidence--mention in contemporary literature: In 1968 the popular writer Barbara Michaels published Ammie, Come Home a ghost story set in Georgetown, MD. The key thing here is that early in the book the protagonist goes shopping with her trendy niece and is talked into buying one of those new maxi skirts. (BTW remember that the first maxis were mid-calf length. Later the term was applied to ankle-length as well.) - Hope On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 12:06 AM, Sylvia Rognstad syl...@ntw.net wrote: Anyhow, I'm trying to remember when long skirts and dresses came in. I can only recall wearing them in the 1970s, but my legs, not being what they used to be, definitely do not want to be seen in a mini skirt, which is all I can remember wearing in the late 60s. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
I remember my older brother's Cool Girlfriend wearing long dresses when I was in 8th grade, in 1971. By the time I was in high school, a year later, the pattern companies were showing most of their teen oriented dresses in both mini and long lengths. I wore a granny dress to school in about 66 and got told it was a nightgown and not to wear it to school again. I folded about 12 of hem into the thing and wore it to school anyway. And then there were the long skirts made by splitting a pair of jeans and adding wedges of fabric to the front and back. I did that when I was in middle school in about '63 because it seemed like a good idea. I'd never seen them before, I think. Must have occurred to dozens of us across the country. Now I want some of those elaborately decorated jeans the Low-Riders wear - when the things aren't falling off - and make a skirt out of one of those. -- Carolyn Kayta Barrows -- “The future is already here, it is just unevenly distributed.” -William Gibson -- ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
When my 25-year-old was still a junior in high school she came home from a thrift store with a pair of poly double-knit trousers, in the mandatory plaid, and tried to convince me they were cool. I offered to tell her what we thought of those when they were new, which ended the conversation. I let her wear them, on the theory that nobody would think I put her up to it. Those heavy polyester double-knits! Blecchh! -- Carolyn Kayta Barrows -- “The future is already here, it is just unevenly distributed.” -William Gibson -- ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
My mother was ADDICTED to that stuff. In the most horrible pallid colors... And of course it had to be TEXTURED as well. I can still remember some of those dresses- was like wearing a plastic bag lined with sandpaper. Shudder. Liadain A happy natural fiber junkie now THL Liadain ni Mhordha OFO You get a wonderful view from the point of no return... needleworks in progress- http://practical-blackwork.blogspot.com freebie and pattern news- http://practical-blackwork.tripod.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/liadains_fancies -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Sharon Collier Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:13 PM To: 'Historical Costume' Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions Those heavy polyester double-knits! Blecchh! -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Suzanne Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 12:14 PM To: h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions I lived in Ann Arbor, Michigan, from 1963 to 1976. As I remember it, skirts got progressively shorter from 1966 to 1969 but the local culture still didn't accept trousers on women. IIRC, the first pantsuits for women were greeted with derision on this side of the Atlantic. Anyhoo, I *loathed* mini-skirts with a deep, abiding passion so I made my first maxi skirt (without a pattern) in 1968/1969, specifically to wear to school (9th grade). It was ankle- length, and I'm proud to say that I was one of the first to wear one in my social circle g. By the time I graduated in 1972, we were all routinely wearing those long dresses with the elastic under the bust (as mentioned by another list-member)--made in wild floral prints and using commercial patterns--when we weren't wearing jeans. While other fashions had been banned at various times, the Ann Arbor schools never bothered to target granny dresses. I do remember that it was a challenge to keep bra straps hidden under those wide necklines! So when I went to college I just stopped wearing the bras By 1974, I had given up wearing skirts entirely and bought pantsuits instead for occasions that called for something nicer than jeans. Anybody wanna talk about pantsuits?? Suzanne [who thinks it is true that the Sixties mostly happened in the Seventies] On Jul 4, 2009, at 1:00 PM, h-costume-requ...@indra.com wrote: From: Hope Greenberg hope.greenb...@uvm.edu Date: July 4, 2009 11:44:14 AM CDT To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions Ah, what fun. I know by the early 70s I had several long dresses for casual wear, but when did the trend start? Well, here are two factoids that might help: In the late 60s Laura Ashley introduced daywear that had a longer length. (see any history of Laura Ashley, wikipedia will do) And my favorite kind of evidence--mention in contemporary literature: In 1968 the popular writer Barbara Michaels published Ammie, Come Home a ghost story set in Georgetown, MD. The key thing here is that early in the book the protagonist goes shopping with her trendy niece and is talked into buying one of those new maxi skirts. (BTW remember that the first maxis were mid-calf length. Later the term was applied to ankle-length as well.) - Hope On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 12:06 AM, Sylvia Rognstad syl...@ntw.net wrote: Anyhow, I'm trying to remember when long skirts and dresses came in. I can only recall wearing them in the 1970s, but my legs, not being what they used to be, definitely do not want to be seen in a mini skirt, which is all I can remember wearing in the late 60s. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
In a message dated 7/4/2009 8:59:10 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, annbw...@aol.com writes: Right off the top of my head, clothing-wise, I'm thinking of polyester double knits, and men's super wide ties and wild plaid jackets with patch pockets, and leisure suits. ** I think of this as 70's not 60's. But the 70's is when the do your own thang hippy, peace, drug culture and all had become mainstream. Ties and suits in the 60's are not hippy and , in the Beatle-mania period, are of the Ivy League kindnarrow, and tight. That Peter Max color scheme and flashy big ties and bell-bottomed plaid suits don't enter into main stream until after the Beatles drop acid and go to India. Sgt Pepper isn't until 1967. The decade is more than half over. Before it goes commercial, the hippy movement is anti-establishment and down with authority! Like Beatniks in the 50's, it's fringe. And that 60's Austin Powers look is English Mod not hippy. Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months. --Oscar Wilde **An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222887319x1201497660/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072hmpgID=62bcd=Jul yExcfooterNO62) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
Ah, but the phrase that I was responding to was that much of what we think of as the 1960s really happened in the 1970s, not necessarily just the hippies of the 1960s. And certainly things happened in different places at different times. For instance, no one wore a grannie dress at my suburban St. Louis high school until after I graduated, in 1969. When my classmates weren't wearing Villager shirtwaists, they did often tend toward the mod look--my first pair of pantyhose (as opposed to stockings) were pale orange and had a diamond pattern. Double-breasted, so-called Edwardian tuxedos were the style of choice for many of my male classmates at the prom, again in the spring of 1969, or so I understood from their discussion--I didn't go (I wasn't anti-prom--I couldn't get a date, and one didn't go without one). I went to a private liberal arts college that had a dress code, skirts only, right up until the fall of 1969, when I started. So no one wore jeans to class until then. Ann Wass **Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood0005) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
Everything old is new again. But nothing ever happens exactly the same way twice!. MaggiRos Maggie Secara ~A Compendium of Common Knowledge 1558-1603 Available at your favorite online bookseller See our gallery at http://www.zazzle.com/popinjaypress On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 10:41 PM, Penny Ladnier pe...@costumegallery.comwrote: This conversation came to mind tonight while watching fireworks. Many young adult women were wearing tie-dyed maxi skirts. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 11 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
I remember those Villlager shirtwaists. No one was wearing them in CA where I went to high school but I recall that when I went on to college there were girls in my rooming house from the east coast who were all wearing Villager style clothes, along with penny loafers, which no one in CA wore either. It was the preppy look which, I don't think, ever made its way to the west coast. Slvia On Jul 5, 2009, at 10:25 AM, annbw...@aol.com wrote: Ah, but the phrase that I was responding to was that much of what we think of as the 1960s really happened in the 1970s, not necessarily just the hippies of the 1960s. And certainly things happened in different places at different times. For instance, no one wore a grannie dress at my suburban St. Louis high school until after I graduated, in 1969. When my classmates weren't wearing Villager shirtwaists, they did often tend toward the mod look-- my first pair of pantyhose (as opposed to stockings) were pale orange and had a diamond pattern. Double-breasted, so-called Edwardian tuxedos were the style of choice for many of my male classmates at the prom, again in the spring of 1969, or so I understood from their discussion--I didn't go (I wasn't anti-prom--I couldn't get a date, and one didn't go without one). I went to a private liberal arts college that had a dress code, skirts only, right up until the fall of 1969, when I started. So no one wore jeans to class until then. Ann Wass **Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood0005) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought
Page 9 shows something the author actually calls a pill box, and gives it as Venetian about 1500. We are all aware, right, that this book is not proper documentation, being nothing but re-drawings from unidentified sources? Maggie Secara ~A Compendium of Common Knowledge 1558-1603 Available at your favorite online bookseller See our gallery at http://www.zazzle.com/popinjaypress On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 11:10 PM, Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.comwrote: Wow, if you go to page 4, in the top right corner is a man wearing a hat that is almost exactly what everyone has been discussing. (hat/caul with rolled/padded brim, even with a slight point in front)Could women have adopted a man's style? -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of otsisto Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 4:24 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought I had asked Lynn McMasters and she says that it is based off an Italian portrait. http://lynnmcmasters.com/LadyM.html in color and a wee bit larger. http://tinyurl.com/yt6hg9 Now it could be something like this http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Angelo_Bronzino_002.jpg with a caul but it is hard to tell. The Mode in Hats and headdresses might also be of help. Wilcox has a few pillbox drawings from this period. Usually you can find a matching portrait to her drawings if you look around. I have seem many 18C matches in my Turban research. You can see all her drawings from that book on line. http://gallery.villagehatshop.com/gallery/chapter9 She does use different names for what is basically the same thing; Pillbox, Calotte (cap) and velvet bonnet. Maybe that is what people are having trouble with. Lynn De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
I think we wore penny loafers to school in the late 50s, in So Cal. For me, that was elementary school. MaggiRos Maggie Secara ~A Compendium of Common Knowledge 1558-1603 Available at your favorite online bookseller See our gallery at http://www.zazzle.com/popinjaypress On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 9:41 AM, Sylvia Rognstad syl...@ntw.net wrote: I remember those Villlager shirtwaists. No one was wearing them in CA where I went to high school but I recall that when I went on to college there were girls in my rooming house from the east coast who were all wearing Villager style clothes, along with penny loafers, which no one in CA wore either. It was the preppy look which, I don't think, ever made its way to the west coast. Slvia On Jul 5, 2009, at 10:25 AM, annbw...@aol.com wrote: Ah, but the phrase that I was responding to was that much of what we think of as the 1960s really happened in the 1970s, not necessarily just the hippies of the 1960s. And certainly things happened in different places at different times. For instance, no one wore a grannie dress at my suburban St. Louis high school until after I graduated, in 1969. When my classmates weren't wearing Villager shirtwaists, they did often tend toward the mod look--my first pair of pantyhose (as opposed to stockings) were pale orange and had a diamond pattern. Double-breasted, so-called Edwardian tuxedos were the style of choice for many of my male classmates at the prom, again in the spring of 1969, or so I understood from their discussion--I didn't go (I wasn't anti-prom--I couldn't get a date, and one didn't go without one). I went to a private liberal arts college that had a dress code, skirts only, right up until the fall of 1969, when I started. So no one wore jeans to class until then. Ann Wass **Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood0005) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought
On Jul 5, 2009, at 12:48 PM, Maggie wrote: Page 9 shows something the author actually calls a pill box, Perhaps Wilcox is the source of that misnomer. and gives it as Venetian about 1500. We are all aware, right, that this book is not proper documentation, being nothing but re-drawings from unidentified sources? Yes! And when a source can be identified, often the re-drawings have improved upon the originals. On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 11:10 PM, Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.comwrote: Wow, if you go to page 4, in the top right corner is a man wearing a hat that is almost exactly what everyone has been discussing. (hat/ caul with rolled/padded brim, even with a slight point in front)Could women have adopted a man's style? I would be very interested to see the source of this re-drawing. It looks pretty suspicious to me (which is to say that I don't recall ever seeing headwear of this type on a man in a 16th-century image). Melanie Schuessler ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
I remember those Villlager shirtwaists. No one was wearing them in CA where I went to high school but I recall that when I went on to college there were girls in my rooming house from the east coast who were all wearing Villager style clothes, along with penny loafers, which no one in CA wore either. It was the preppy look which, I don't think, ever made its way to the west coast. Slvia I was born in '62, so most of what y'all are discussing is *ancient* history gg to me, but I do remember when I was in elementary school, we went to the high school one evening for a carnival and I saw those glamorous high school girls wearing gauze shirts and bell bottom jeans with colorful inserts. My mom made most of my clothing and I begged her for some of those jeans! I'm not familiar with villager shirtwaist and google didn't come up with much - is this similar to a camp shirt ? - like the ones worn by Haley Mills in Disney's Parent Trap movie. Denise ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
A Villager shirtwaist was a dress, usually cotton, with a full skirt. Villager was the brand - they had a whole line of rather preppy style clothes that were more expensive than other clothes and only were made up to a size 11. Janet ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
In a message dated 7/5/2009 5:30:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bear_ja...@msn.com writes: A Villager shirtwaist was a dress, usually cotton, with a full skirt. Villager was the brand - they had a whole line of rather preppy style clothes that were more expensive than other clothes and only were made up to a size 11. **Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood0005) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
In a message dated 7/5/2009 5:30:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bear_ja...@msn.com writes: A Villager shirtwaist was a dress, usually cotton, with a full skirt. Villager was the brand - they had a whole line of rather preppy style clothes that were more expensive than other clothes and only were made up to a size 11. Whoops--sorry for the blank post. Yes, Villager was a brand. A shirtwaist, at least in 1960s terminology, is a dress with a fitted bodice--bust and waist darts--and buttons down the center front--attached to a skirt. It could be full in the 1950s or early 1960s, but by the late '60s was often A-line. The fabric was often a cotton with a floral sort of serpentine print. To make the style work with a full skirt, there was a slit placket opening at center front, or, sometimes, an underarm zipper. I never had an authentic Villager dress, but merely homemade styles (that I made myself.) I still have the pattern I used, Simplity 8296 from 1969. The A-line view had the underarm zipper. I think I used another pattern for the full-skirted view, which had a slit placket but no underarm zipper. Dresses could have short sleeves with a turned up cuff, or long sleeves with a button cuff, and a convertible collar. Ann Wass **Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood0005) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought
I know that image... it is Henri III in a color cartoon of a tapestry by Antoine Caron, c.1580. The roll shown in the drawing is actually Henri's hair, from what I can tell. It is a black hat matched with his black hair, so maybe that's where the confusion comes in. And he is wearing a ruff, not a falling band/collar. While it may also be from another of the tapestries (I've got a few more images in other books), the angle of the head seems the same, along with the jeweled featherpiece on his hat/cap/whatever. I can scan it and upload it later, if anyone wants. Busy with a gable hood right now to do so. Kimiko --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Melanie Schuessler mela...@faucet.net wrote: Wow, if you go to page 4, in the top right corner is a man wearing a hat that is almost exactly what everyone has been discussing. (hat/caul with rolled/padded brim, even with a slight point in front)Could women have adopted a man's style? I would be very interested to see the source of this re-drawing. It looks pretty suspicious to me (which is to say that I don't recall ever seeing headwear of this type on a man in a 16th-century image). Melanie Schuessler ___ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought
Thank you for the apology Chimene. Kimiko --- On Sat, 7/4/09, Patricia Dunham chim...@ravensgard.org wrote: From: Patricia Dunham chim...@ravensgard.org Subject: Re: [h-cost] Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 12:24 AM Kimiko, I'm very very sorry that you perceived my response as being jumped on, it certainly, absolutely wasn't meant personally. I apologize for my clumsy writing. Yours just happened to be the post that brought the subject up again, so it's the one I responded to... I probably should have just stiffled myself. chimene ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] 1960s fashions; was 1960s hippie fashions
The other thing that was big in my high school in the late 1960s was the London Fog yellow poplin zip-front jacket. They were really ubiquitous--looking out at a school assembly,. one saw a sea of light yellow. And, rumor had it that they were stolen from our gym locker room. (I never had one of these, either--pricey and not very practical for Missouri winters.) But I'm curious if this fad was wide-spread during the late '60s at high schools in other parts of the country. Ann Wass **Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood0005) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
Were you in the Midwest? From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Sylvia Rognstad [syl...@ntw.net] Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 8:29 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions What do you mean by that? I definitely experienced the 60s in the 60s. Sylvia On Jul 4, 2009, at 6:22 PM, annbw...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 7/4/2009 7:37:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sovag...@cybermesa.com writes: [who thinks it is true that the Sixties mostly happened in the Seventies] Oh, absolutely. Ann Wass **Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood0005) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
In a message dated 7/5/2009 6:41:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ricka...@muc.edu writes: Were you in the Midwest? Don't know if this was aimed at me, but yes, I was--lived in the close-in suburbs of St. Louis, Missouri. Ann wass **Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood0005) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought
On Jul 5, 2009, at 6:14 PM, Kimiko Small wrote: I know that image... it is Henri III in a color cartoon of a tapestry by Antoine Caron, c.1580. The roll shown in the drawing is actually Henri's hair, from what I can tell. It is a black hat matched with his black hair, so maybe that's where the confusion comes in. And he is wearing a ruff, not a falling band/collar. Good call on recognizing Henri III, but I wonder whether Wilcox wasn't working from this http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/joconde/0002/ m503604_87ee1701_p.jpg which the Louvre attributes to Francois Quesnel, 1582-1586. The listing from the joconde database is here: http://tinyurl.com/r87kfh This is a new one for me--it does rather look like a hat with a padded band instead of a brim. My apologies to Wilcox in absentia, though I maintain that she's not an entirely trustworthy source based on other images that she's changed in the re-drawing. I'm still not sure, however, that the women's styles we've been looking at are of this type. Some look puffy as if padded (though see my previous email for a possible explanation revolving around coiled braids and a caul), but they don't have the added height of the crown of the hat that's clearly visible on Henri. Nor do they have the profile of a puffed bit with something of a smaller circumference atop it. It's not impossible--I just think it's unlikely based on what I've seen so far. Melanie Schuessler ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] headwear in general
Do you mean resources for research? Resources for finding materials? Resources for purchasing finished headwear? Melanie Schuessler On Jul 5, 2009, at 7:14 PM, Susan Farmer wrote: while we're talking about hats I am decidedly milinnarily challenged. What are your favorite resources (particularly for pre-1650-ish) headwear? (Some of you may have addressed that issue on my LiveJournal, but feel free to weigh in again) Susan/ jerusha/ FlorentineScot - Susan Farmer sfar...@goldsword.com Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College Division of Science and Math http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s fashions; was 1960s hippie fashions
But I'm curious if this fad was wide-spread during the late '60s at high schools in other parts of the country. San Diego,where I spent the 60s, gets12 inches of rain per year, on average. So no, we didn'tgetthatfad. I only just got a raincoat a couple of years ago, surplussed out from where I work. -- Carolyn Kayta Barrows -- “The future is already here, it is just unevenly distributed.” -William Gibson -- ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] headwear in general
while we're talking about hats I am decidedly milinnarily challenged. What are your favorite resources (particularly for pre-1650-ish) headwear? (Some of you may have addressed that issue on my LiveJournal, but feel free to weigh in again) Susan/ jerusha/ FlorentineScot - Susan Farmer sfar...@goldsword.com Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College Division of Science and Math http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] headwear in general
Quoting Melanie Schuessler mela...@faucet.net: Do you mean resources for research? Resources for finding materials? Resources for purchasing finished headwear? Sorry, that was pretty vague, wasn't it. I blame teaching an entire semester in 4 weeks. Resources for research. I don't have a very good clue as to what was appropriate when. (if that makes any sense!) Susan - Susan Farmer sfar...@goldsword.com Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College Division of Science and Math http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought
Great call for knowing which Henri image it really was based on. Kimiko Good call on recognizing Henri III, but I wonder whether Wilcox wasn't working from this http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/joconde/0002/m503604_87ee1701_p.jpg which the Louvre attributes to Francois Quesnel, 1582-1586. The listing from the joconde database is here: http://tinyurl.com/r87kfh ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
No. I was in CA, so I understand that the 60s probably hit the midwest later. Funny, though, that that was something that never occurred to me for a long time. I just assumed everyone everywhere was dressing ( and behaving) as we did in CA. On Jul 5, 2009, at 4:40 PM, Rickard, Patty wrote: Were you in the Midwest? From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Sylvia Rognstad [syl...@ntw.net] Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 8:29 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions What do you mean by that? I definitely experienced the 60s in the 60s. Sylvia On Jul 4, 2009, at 6:22 PM, annbw...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 7/4/2009 7:37:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sovag...@cybermesa.com writes: [who thinks it is true that the Sixties mostly happened in the Seventies] Oh, absolutely. Ann Wass **Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood0005) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
Just meant that in the midwest (where I was) the 60's probably started and ended later than on the coasts. From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of annbw...@aol.com [annbw...@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 6:44 PM To: h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions In a message dated 7/5/2009 6:41:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ricka...@muc.edu writes: Were you in the Midwest? Don't know if this was aimed at me, but yes, I was--lived in the close-in suburbs of St. Louis, Missouri. Ann wass **Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood0005) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] headwear in general
This is why I like redrawing books like Wilcox, to help get an idea of what was available during any given time period as an overview. From there, I can then dig into the images of the time period in question, hunting for whatever specific style I want, as many images as I can find, to better get the real details of whatever it is I am going for. As to actual resources... there are too many for me to count, since I go with portrait pieces, other images of the time, and illuminations. It can take awhile to collect what you need. Depending on the time period, I can offer some suggested art sites, or collection sites where others have done the collecting of images already. My favorite is also collecting history and image books in general, since they offer many images of the time period. But that can be iffy when they toss in Victorian woodcuts as often as they do contemporary images, and older ones don't tell you much about the image other than maybe a name, some of which has since been switched to someone else. Not helping much, sorry. Kimiko --- On Sun, 7/5/09, Susan Farmer sfar...@goldsword.com wrote: Sorry, that was pretty vague, wasn't it. I blame teaching an entire semester in 4 weeks. Resources for research. I don't have a very good clue as to what was appropriate when. (if that makes any sense!) Susan - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Research problems WAS: Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought
We are all aware, right, that this book is not proper documentation, being nothing but re-drawings from unidentified sources? Maggie Secara ~A Compendium of Common Knowledge 1558-1603 Available at your favorite online bookseller See our gallery at http://www.zazzle.com/popinjaypress Chimene's CAVEAT: The following is not meant to rant or peck at anyone, just a statement of our opinions and interpretations. Thank you, Maggie, for pointing out that Wilcox is RE-DRAWING. Lovely little pictures, but where we are from, 30 years ago anyway, the Mode-in books were considered very doubtful sources. All of them. Fashion, Footwear, Hats Hairdressing, etc. On a par with Iris Brooke, fer heaven's sake. Sources like Wilcox, Norris, etc. can be very difficult to evaluate. They are relatively very available. My 16yo has listened to his parents rant enough that HE knows not to believe everything you see/read in a book, but lots of people haven't had his advantages, G Many people, from many different backgrounds, arrive at an interest in costume history with an uncritical faith in the accuracy of what you find in books. It's not their fault, and one can be educated out of such an innocent POV, but it can be a difficult and delicate process -- yes, even when done in person G I now realize just how very lucky I was that when I really found the SCA, the group was still strongly under the influence of the grad student research-wonks who had founded it. (That's a self-description from my best friend, who was a late-comer... she attended the second event!) Actually, for my first few years the handful of founders who were still in town were also pretty much the entire population of the group! So that was the culture I grew up in. This was decades before the Internet, and I was a librarian anyway, so I already knew how to do book research. I think that this is an area that a LOT of people get out of high school, and even college, these days, with not much experience in how to do it at all (book research), let alone the idea that you CAN and need to evaluate sources. Also, I have learned that many people don't know much about using public libraries either. One often hears that people are far from university libraries, but most towns have some sort of public library access. It seems that lots of folks get to be adults without knowing about inter-library loan, whereby you can get your public library to get books for you from university libraries in the US and sometimes from outside the US! As a library user from early childhood, let alone working in them all my adult life, it took me many years to realize that there are perfectly intelligent and well-educated folks in the world who do NOT really understand about libraries. I'm not sure this thought is complete yet, but I think I'll call it a day. For something we're not really interested in at all (Elizabethan hats), this question has occupied a LOT of our time and emotional energy the last few days! BIG G NOTE: In the course of writing this up, my DH and I have been having quite a discussion about whether Wilcox's feminine face is Carole Lombard (1930's), or something more '50's. My public library catalog says Wilcox was born in 1888, FWIW. And of course, Norris's drawings look distinctly Victorian/Edwardian, AND he was a professional theatrical costume designer. Of course, it took me about 30 years to REALLY recognize the Victorian nuance in his drawings. Chimene Gerek ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Laudonia in color WAS: Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought
I had asked Lynn McMasters and she says that it is based off an Italian portrait. http://lynnmcmasters.com/LadyM.html in color and a wee bit larger. http://tinyurl.com/yt6hg9 Some lurking! Thanks to those folks who tried to make me feel better about clunky, non-visual writing problems -- apparently your kind reassurances worked G. DISCLAIMER: The following is not meant to rant or peck at anyone, just a statement of our opinions and interpretations. We went hunting for a color version too, without having checked all of otsisto's links! Bad! Anyway, we found another(?) color version of the original BW Laudonia portrait with more information about the painting, here http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laudomia_de%27_Medici. This is an Italian wiki page for Laudomia de Medici, note the spelling of the first name: an M not an N as in the caption on Lynn's page (which was probably a typo from where she found the BW, or something about transfering the name from Italian to French or whatever the original language of the BW source page was). OPINION: TO OUR EYES, ON OUR COMPUTER SCREENS, (especially when you enlarge the Italian Wiki picture) it appears from all color versions that the body of the dress is black, but the hair is lighter, reddish, both in front of the solid line of pearls and beyond the pearls. It looks to us like what is behind the solid pearl line is also the reddish of the hair color. Not that you can trust scans for this sort of thing; we've found paintings in multiple versions with wildly varying color values! This is completely not-obvious from the BW version, where the hair and whatever is behind the pearl line all looks the same color as the body of the dress. We also noticed that the BW version is cut off right at the top of the head, but the color versions show space above the head. What we noticed about that was that there was a flat line across the top of the back of the head, not a continuation of the rounded-appearance of the shape beyond the pearls that shows at the side of the head. This would seem, to us, to accord with the perception of hair being gathered to the back of the head in some kind of unstructured containment, like a jeweled caul, for example, where the natural weight of the hair could make a flat at the top, but the body/volume of the hair would make a rounded filling below the top of the head, at the sides, as is seen in both color and BW versions. FYI, for those who don't read Italian G, the Medici family tree here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medici_family_tree shows where the 2 Laudomia's occur and their aunt/niece relationship. Look down the Lorenzo line on the far right. While hunting Bronzino's on-line, we actually did find one item that looked possibly pillbox-like, even to us. About 40%? of the way down this page http://dressdiary.blogspot.com/2008/11/italian-renaissance-portraits.html there is Lorenzo Costa's Portrait of a Woman with a Pearl Necklace. It does also appear to involve a gauzey veil or tie or SOMETHING over the pearled surface, but the outline is as close to a pillbox as we've seen. Of course, it is also Italian, and probably ca. 1500, which is not exactly Elizabethan... Will stop while I am, hopefully, ahead. Chimene ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] headwear in general
Quoting Kimiko Small sstormwa...@yahoo.com: This is why I like redrawing books like Wilcox, to help get an idea of what was available during any given time period as an overview. From there, I can then dig into the images of the time period in question, hunting for whatever specific style I want, as many images as I can find, to better get the real details of whatever it is I am going for. As to actual resources... there are too many for me to count, since I go with portrait pieces, other images of the time, and illuminations. It can take awhile to collect what you need. Depending on the time period, I can offer some suggested art sites, or collection sites where others have done the collecting of images already. My favorite is also collecting history and image books in general, since they offer many images of the time period. But that can be iffy when they toss in Victorian woodcuts as often as they do contemporary images, and older ones don't tell you much about the image other than maybe a name, some of which has since been switched to someone else. Not helping much, sorry. Kimiko, I think that's very helpful. I am thinking of Wilcox -- I've looked at a lot of paintings, and I can recognize a great many of them from the redrawings. And I really like the idea of a broad overview. You've got to train your eyes in a lot of ways before you can start using paintings. Clothes, I think I've got a good handle on, but not so much headwear. Thanks! Susan - Susan Farmer sfar...@goldsword.com Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College Division of Science and Math http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s fashions; was 1960s hippie fashions
The other thing that was big in my high school in the late 1960s was the London Fog yellow poplin zip-front jacket. They were really ubiquitous--looking out at a school assembly,. one saw a sea of light yellow. And, rumor had it that they were stolen from our gym locker room. (I never had one of these, either--pricey and not very practical for Missouri winters.) But I'm curious if this fad was wide-spread during the late '60s at high schools in other parts of the country. How funny! I never new that was a large trend. I didn't have a london fog jacket, but I do remember a dearly loved pale yellow, zip front, hooded jacket. I'm pretty sure it was OshKosh, and it was made from what I'd call light weight canvas, or maybe denim, unlined. I LOVED that jacket and I was so sad when I outgrew it. I'm pretty sure it was second hand and I have no idea where it came from. I had that jacket in the mid 70s in Iowa. Denise B ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
Whoops--sorry for the blank post. Yes, Villager was a brand. A shirtwaist, at least in 1960s terminology, is a dress with a fitted bodice--bust and waist darts--and buttons down the center front--attached to a skirt. It could be full in the 1950s or early 1960s, but by the late '60s was often A-line. The fabric was often a cotton with a floral sort of serpentine print. To make the style work with a full skirt, there was a slit placket opening at center front, or, sometimes, an underarm zipper. I never had an authentic Villager dress, but merely homemade styles (that I made myself.) I still have the pattern I used, Simplity 8296 from 1969. The A-line view had the underarm zipper. I think I used another pattern for the full-skirted view, which had a slit placket but no underarm zipper. Dresses could have short sleeves with a turned up cuff, or long sleeves with a button cuff, and a convertible collar. Would this be similar to the day dresses worn on shows like Leave it to Beaver and I Love Lucy? Denise B ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
Yes, except those were the earlier 50s version with the full skirts. I wore those in junior high but the Villager shirtwaist never came in style where I was in southern CA. What was really in style, for the guys, in the early to mid 60s, in So. Cal was the surfer look. Did that make it across the country? Sylvia On Jul 5, 2009, at 7:11 PM, landofoz wrote: Whoops--sorry for the blank post. Yes, Villager was a brand. A shirtwaist, at least in 1960s terminology, is a dress with a fitted bodice--bust and waist darts--and buttons down the center front--attached to a skirt. It could be full in the 1950s or early 1960s, but by the late '60s was often A-line. The fabric was often a cotton with a floral sort of serpentine print. To make the style work with a full skirt, there was a slit placket opening at center front, or, sometimes, an underarm zipper. I never had an authentic Villager dress, but merely homemade styles (that I made myself.) I still have the pattern I used, Simplity 8296 from 1969. The A- line view had the underarm zipper. I think I used another pattern for the full- skirted view, which had a slit placket but no underarm zipper. Dresses could have short sleeves with a turned up cuff, or long sleeves with a button cuff, and a convertible collar. Would this be similar to the day dresses worn on shows like Leave it to Beaver and I Love Lucy? Denise B ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Villager shirtwaists
http://another-time.com/vintageclothing/LadyBugVillagerSm.jpg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Laudonia in color WAS: Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought
Quoting Patricia Dunham chim...@ravensgard.org: I had asked Lynn McMasters and she says that it is based off an Italian portrait. http://lynnmcmasters.com/LadyM.html in color and a wee bit larger. http://tinyurl.com/yt6hg9 Some lurking! Thanks to those folks who tried to make me feel better about clunky, non-visual writing problems -- apparently your kind reassurances worked G. DISCLAIMER: The following is not meant to rant or peck at anyone, just a statement of our opinions and interpretations. We went hunting for a color version too, without having checked all of otsisto's links! Bad! Anyway, we found another(?) color version of the original BW Laudonia portrait with more information about the painting, here http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laudomia_de%27_Medici. This is an Italian wiki page for Laudomia de Medici, note the spelling of the first name: an M not an N as in the caption on Lynn's page (which was probably a typo from where she found the BW, or something about transfering the name from Italian to French or whatever the original language of the BW source page was). OPINION: TO OUR EYES, ON OUR COMPUTER SCREENS, (especially when you enlarge the Italian Wiki picture) it appears from all color versions that the body of the dress is black, but the hair is lighter, reddish, both in front of the solid line of pearls and beyond the pearls. It looks to us like what is behind the solid pearl line is also the reddish of the hair color. Not that you can trust scans for this sort of thing; we've found paintings in multiple versions with wildly varying color values! This painting is also in Moda a Firenze and it's attributed to Bronzino Workshop and titled Isabella d'Medici. And as much as I'd love for this to be a pillbox, I have to agree. It looks like braids under a pearl and cabachon bun-cover. I uploaded my scan here -- it's Figure 93 for those of you following along with your books. You should be able to keep clicking until you get to the Giant Copy. http://pics.livejournal.com/florentinescot/pic/0008ftdt/ Susan - Susan Farmer sfar...@goldsword.com Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College Division of Science and Math http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] headwear in general
On Jul 5, 2009, at 7:25 PM, Susan Farmer wrote: Sorry, that was pretty vague, wasn't it. I blame teaching an entire semester in 4 weeks. Resources for research. I don't have a very good clue as to what was appropriate when. (if that makes any sense!) It depends on your ultimate goal. If you're doing theatre costuming, and the general look is more important than historical accuracy, than redrawn overview books like Wilcox's will probably get you everything you need. For anything where more accuracy is desirable, I think it's better to go straight to images from the period in question. There are plenty of overviews of clothing history that can get you started (Boucher, Davenport, Payne), and from there you can delve into more and more specific imagery. As Kimiko points out, many times there are websites that already have a collection of images from the time and place you're researching. If you're having trouble with a specific period, odds are that someone on this list can advise you on where to look. I've never seen a single resource with images of headwear from every period aside from the (rather problematic) Wilcox one, so I'm afraid there's not a single answer. Melanie Schuessler ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] headwear in general
Quoting Melanie Schuessler mela...@faucet.net: On Jul 5, 2009, at 7:25 PM, Susan Farmer wrote: Sorry, that was pretty vague, wasn't it. I blame teaching an entire semester in 4 weeks. Resources for research. I don't have a very good clue as to what was appropriate when. (if that makes any sense!) It depends on your ultimate goal. If you're doing theatre costuming, and the general look is more important than historical accuracy, than redrawn overview books like Wilcox's will probably get you everything you need. For anything where more accuracy is desirable, I think it's better to go straight to images from the period in question. There are plenty of overviews of clothing history that can get you started (Boucher, Davenport, Payne), and from there you can delve into more and more specific imagery. As Kimiko points out, many times there are websites that already have a collection of images from the time and place you're researching. If you're having trouble with a specific period, odds are that someone on this list can advise you on where to look. I've never seen a single resource with images of headwear from every period aside from the (rather problematic) Wilcox one, so I'm afraid there's not a single answer. Thanks. Im working with more of an eye towards authenticity than theater, but right now, I just want it to *look* right! Susan - Susan Farmer sfar...@goldsword.com Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College Division of Science and Math http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Research problems WAS: Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought
the Mode-in books were considered very doubtful sources. All of them. That's Ruth Turner Wilcox, and The Mode In Costume was originally published in 1948. Interesting also, speaking of re-drawings, to compare any garment which appears both in Janet Arnold and Nancy Bradfield, and there are several. I trust both these women to have good eyes for authentic detail, but when comparing any such pair of garment illustrations one finds that the proportions are slightly different between them. We need to remember that any redrawing is a secondary source at best. Sometimes Wilcox is not even a secondary source. My favorite example she got from Vecellio, who wasn't a primary source either. (Wilcox substituted heeled shoes and trousers where Vecellio shows a skirt and flat shoes.) -- Carolyn Kayta Barrows -- “The future is already here, it is just unevenly distributed.” -William Gibson -- ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Research problems WAS: Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought
On Jul 5, 2009, at 10:14 PM, Käthe Barrows wrote: We need to remember that any redrawing is a secondary source at best. Sometimes Wilcox is not even a secondary source. My favorite example she got from Vecellio, who wasn't a primary source either. (Wilcox substituted heeled shoes and trousers where Vecellio shows a skirt and flat shoes.) She did violence to a number of Vecellio's images--I actually used Wilcox to make my very first Renaissance costume in high school and years later found out that the image I used was Vecellio's imperfect interpretation of the previous century re-drawn with improvements by Wilcox. Needless to say, it was several degrees of separation from accuracy. Luckily that costume was long since taken apart and made into something else! Melanie Schuessler ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Research problems WAS: Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought
She did violence to a number of Vecellio's images--I actually used Wilcox to make my very first Renaissance costume in high school and years later found out that the image I used was Vecellio's imperfect interpretation of the previous century re-drawn with improvements by Wilcox. Needless to say, it was several degrees of separation from accuracy. Luckily that costume was long since taken apart and made into something else! Back in 1971 when I joined the SCA nobody had Janet Arnold. But thanks to (I think) Dover, we could get Wilcox. I remember relying on it heavily when I had nothing but that and my tattered copy of Davenport. After a while I learned what was what, and what wasn't, but it took years. Nowadays I don't even recommend Wilcox as an overview, tho I do still have a copy of it. I dumped my copy of Peacock as useless, and wonder why I ever bought it. At least the illustrations in Wilcox are fun. -- Carolyn Kayta Barrows -- “The future is already here, it is just unevenly distributed.” -William Gibson -- ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
It was the preppy look which, I don't think, ever made its way to the west coast. It made it to San Diego, or at least a madras plaid version did. -- Carolyn Kayta Barrows -- “The future is already here, it is just unevenly distributed.” -William Gibson -- ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
No. I was in CA, so I understand that the 60s probably hit the midwest later. Funny, though, that that was something that never occurred to me for a long time. I just assumed everyone everywhere was dressing ( and behaving) as we did in CA. The 60s hit San Diego a couple of years after they hit San Francisco. That much I remember. -- Carolyn Kayta Barrows -- “The future is already here, it is just unevenly distributed.” -William Gibson -- ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Garibaldi Shirt WAS: Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought
A good simple dress would be a gathered bodice with coat or bishop sleeves and a cartridge pleated skirt. Simplicity had a very good pattern by Martha McCain that was an easy way to get started if you can find it. I don't remember the # but the main dress on the front is a yellow dress and the lady has a straw hat on and a basket. Past Pattern also has a gathered/darted bodice pattern and you can get directions on how to cartridge pleat the skirt at elizabethstewertclark.com. Assuming this is going to be made out of cotton you should look for a print were the pattern is somewhat uniform. They had a lot of rollerprinted patterns so if you can see the pattern repeating uniformly as if a roller with a single pattern was rolled the length of the fabric that is a good sign. You should also plan on making white collars and cuffs for the dress to be basted on. This was both commonly seen and will save the parts of your dress that get the most dirt and wear from showing it as quickly. Laura Hoover If we continue to forget our past we will continue to repeat it over and over and over... Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 01:16:58 + From: purpl...@optonline.net To: h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Garibaldi Shirt WAS: Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought As I am brand new to this time period, do I just google Civil War dress, or 1860, or what? Katheryne - Original Message - From: Carolann Schmitt Karen's suggest on getting an appropriate one-piece dress and accessorizingit for your needs is still very applicable and very good advice. Regards, Carolann Schmitt www.genteelarts.com Ladies Gentlemen of the 1860s Conference, March 4-7, 2010 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _ Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Civil war era work dress
If you would like to see an original Civil War era homespun dress, please see: http://www.uttyler.edu/vbetts/furr_homespun_dress.htm Vicki Betts Subject: Re: [h-cost] Garibaldi Shirt WAS: Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought As I am brand new to this time period, do I just google Civil War dress, or 1860, or what? Katheryne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Villager shirtwaists
Good grief, those godawful horizontally-striped pants! Please, tell me people didn't actually wear them! Michelle in SE Michigan, who after seeing those pants is glad she missed the 60s. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Laudonia in color WAS: Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought
So, maybe this was a hairstyle, as shown in another picture in an earlier post today, with the roll actually made of hair and wrapped with pearls and jeweled hairpins stuck in along the roll. Dang, I don't have that much hair! -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Dunham Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 5:58 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] Laudonia in color WAS: Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats sought I had asked Lynn McMasters and she says that it is based off an Italian portrait. http://lynnmcmasters.com/LadyM.html in color and a wee bit larger. http://tinyurl.com/yt6hg9 Some lurking! Thanks to those folks who tried to make me feel better about clunky, non-visual writing problems -- apparently your kind reassurances worked G. DISCLAIMER: The following is not meant to rant or peck at anyone, just a statement of our opinions and interpretations. We went hunting for a color version too, without having checked all of otsisto's links! Bad! Anyway, we found another(?) color version of the original BW Laudonia portrait with more information about the painting, here http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laudomia_de%27_Medici. This is an Italian wiki page for Laudomia de Medici, note the spelling of the first name: an M not an N as in the caption on Lynn's page (which was probably a typo from where she found the BW, or something about transfering the name from Italian to French or whatever the original language of the BW source page was). OPINION: TO OUR EYES, ON OUR COMPUTER SCREENS, (especially when you enlarge the Italian Wiki picture) it appears from all color versions that the body of the dress is black, but the hair is lighter, reddish, both in front of the solid line of pearls and beyond the pearls. It looks to us like what is behind the solid pearl line is also the reddish of the hair color. Not that you can trust scans for this sort of thing; we've found paintings in multiple versions with wildly varying color values! This is completely not-obvious from the BW version, where the hair and whatever is behind the pearl line all looks the same color as the body of the dress. We also noticed that the BW version is cut off right at the top of the head, but the color versions show space above the head. What we noticed about that was that there was a flat line across the top of the back of the head, not a continuation of the rounded-appearance of the shape beyond the pearls that shows at the side of the head. This would seem, to us, to accord with the perception of hair being gathered to the back of the head in some kind of unstructured containment, like a jeweled caul, for example, where the natural weight of the hair could make a flat at the top, but the body/volume of the hair would make a rounded filling below the top of the head, at the sides, as is seen in both color and BW versions. FYI, for those who don't read Italian G, the Medici family tree here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medici_family_tree shows where the 2 Laudomia's occur and their aunt/niece relationship. Look down the Lorenzo line on the far right. While hunting Bronzino's on-line, we actually did find one item that looked possibly pillbox-like, even to us. About 40%? of the way down this page http://dressdiary.blogspot.com/2008/11/italian-renaissance-portraits.html there is Lorenzo Costa's Portrait of a Woman with a Pearl Necklace. It does also appear to involve a gauzey veil or tie or SOMETHING over the pearled surface, but the outline is as close to a pillbox as we've seen. Of course, it is also Italian, and probably ca. 1500, which is not exactly Elizabethan... Will stop while I am, hopefully, ahead. Chimene ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Laudonia in color WAS: Primary source forElizabethan pillbox hats sought
Supersizing the image shows great detail, like the edges of the sleeve slits. Wonderful! -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Susan Farmer Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 6:33 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Laudonia in color WAS: Primary source forElizabethan pillbox hats sought Quoting Patricia Dunham chim...@ravensgard.org: I had asked Lynn McMasters and she says that it is based off an Italian portrait. http://lynnmcmasters.com/LadyM.html in color and a wee bit larger. http://tinyurl.com/yt6hg9 Some lurking! Thanks to those folks who tried to make me feel better about clunky, non-visual writing problems -- apparently your kind reassurances worked G. DISCLAIMER: The following is not meant to rant or peck at anyone, just a statement of our opinions and interpretations. We went hunting for a color version too, without having checked all of otsisto's links! Bad! Anyway, we found another(?) color version of the original BW Laudonia portrait with more information about the painting, here http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laudomia_de%27_Medici. This is an Italian wiki page for Laudomia de Medici, note the spelling of the first name: an M not an N as in the caption on Lynn's page (which was probably a typo from where she found the BW, or something about transfering the name from Italian to French or whatever the original language of the BW source page was). OPINION: TO OUR EYES, ON OUR COMPUTER SCREENS, (especially when you enlarge the Italian Wiki picture) it appears from all color versions that the body of the dress is black, but the hair is lighter, reddish, both in front of the solid line of pearls and beyond the pearls. It looks to us like what is behind the solid pearl line is also the reddish of the hair color. Not that you can trust scans for this sort of thing; we've found paintings in multiple versions with wildly varying color values! This painting is also in Moda a Firenze and it's attributed to Bronzino Workshop and titled Isabella d'Medici. And as much as I'd love for this to be a pillbox, I have to agree. It looks like braids under a pearl and cabachon bun-cover. I uploaded my scan here -- it's Figure 93 for those of you following along with your books. You should be able to keep clicking until you get to the Giant Copy. http://pics.livejournal.com/florentinescot/pic/0008ftdt/ Susan - Susan Farmer sfar...@goldsword.com Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College Division of Science and Math http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Research problems WAS: Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox ha...
In a message dated 7/5/2009 10:43:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kay...@gmail.com writes: Nowadays I don't even recommend Wilcox as an overview, tho I do still have a copy of it. We have had this discussion before, but I'll weigh in again. Wilcox was one of the books that got me started in costume history. I made paper dolls based on several of my favorites. I found a copy cheap at a flea market almost 30 years ago and have it still. Do I rely on it for research? No. It has been interesting through the years to recognize the sources her drawings were based on--some seem to have been primary sources, like fashion plates. Occasionally, if I need clip art of, say, a fan or glove or something and I find the line drawings handy to scan for that. Ann Wass **Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Garibaldi Shirt WAS: Primary source for Elizabethan pillbox hats...
In a message dated 7/5/2009 11:03:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cha...@hotmail.com writes: Assuming this is going to be made out of cotton you should look for a print were the pattern is somewhat uniform. They had a lot of rollerprinted patterns so if you can see the pattern repeating uniformly as if a roller with a single pattern was rolled the length of the fabric that is a good sign. It is fairly easy to find printed cottons taken from mid-19th century designs--search at a quilt shop. (If only EARLY 19th century designs were as easy to find!) Ann Wass **Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 1960s hippie fashions
In a message dated 7/5/2009 9:12:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lando...@netins.net writes: Would this be similar to the day dresses worn on shows like Leave it to Beaver and I Love Lucy? Oh, yes, the shirtwaist started life at least in the 1950s, and maybe before (I'm ashamed that, as a costume historian, I can't tell you for sure, but then, I haven't really studied the 20th century all that much in recent years.) Ann Wass **Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
