In
CAArMM9T5iAWomwY=mpt5lazdbz7xaz0h6b0nhyjws0ymc0o...@mail.gmail.com,
on 01/13/2014
at 02:27 PM, Tony Harminc t...@harminc.net said:
But no one would say that UTF-8 *is*
ASCII, or that UTF-EBCDIC *is* EBCDIC.
Well, all ASCII characters are valid single octet UTF-8 sequences, so
I would say
Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Tony Harminc
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 2:27 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Subject Unicode
On 12 January 2014 10:21, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net wrote:
on 01/09/2014 at 09:00 PM, Tony Harminc t
In 7503442349556875.wa.paulgboulderaim@listserv.ua.edu, on
01/12/2014
at 09:55 AM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com said:
Thereby sacrificing some small economy of storage. There are even
better arguments for deferring the disambiguation, such as:
o Use of tabs as field separators in
In 52d2d540.1020...@t-online.de, on 01/12/2014
at 06:47 PM, Bernd Oppolzer bernd.oppol...@t-online.de said:
IMO, the idea to put tab characters into files is wrong from the
beginning.
I don't agree; it's useful for text markup. I don't like taking away a
printable character as a logical tab.
In 20140111220658.62ce18f...@panix3.panix.com, on 01/11/2014
at 05:06 PM, Don Poitras poit...@pobox.com said:
I don't know how these characters are going to survive email,
Not without proper[1] MIME header fields; characters like, e.g.,
Copyright (©), Euro (€), Registered (®), Yen (¥), are
In 8160871980876269.wa.paulgboulderaim@listserv.ua.edu, on
01/12/2014
at 03:28 PM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com said:
Doesn't understand UNIX line breaks.
I don't FTP text files as binary. NOTEPAD doesn't introduce fancy
formatting that I didn't request and don't want. For me,
In
CAE1XxDF7qr2ek3mdCFRsgdqUjpReOCmCs5qqfckwMY7sh=t...@mail.gmail.com,
on 01/12/2014
at 05:11 PM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com said:
If I argued that the comments prefixed to a routine described its
putative algorithm correctly and that the routine itself could thus
contain no error, Shmuel
On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 5:28 PM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.comwrote:
On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 15:48:49 -0600, Kirk Wolf wrote:
On Linux gedit works fine, on Windows I use Notepad++ which handles Unix
eols and UTF-8
You mean I don't have to wait for Windows 14!? Thanks!
Does it do UNIX
On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 13:09:40 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
Thereby sacrificing some small economy of storage. There are even
better arguments for deferring the disambiguation, such as:
o Use of tabs as field separators in exported data bases.
o Rendering in proportional-spaced fonts,
On 12 January 2014 10:21, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net wrote:
on 01/09/2014 at 09:00 PM, Tony Harminc t...@harminc.net said:
There is no general way to convert UNICODE into EBCDIC,
There are EBCDIC transforms for Unicode. I'm not sure whether that qulifies
as EBCDIC.
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 1:27 PM, Tony Harminc t...@harminc.net wrote:
On 12 January 2014 10:21, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net wrote:
on 01/09/2014 at 09:00 PM, Tony Harminc t...@harminc.net said:
There is no general way to convert UNICODE into EBCDIC,
There are
It might survive as .txt attachment. Everything else gets sliced and diced.
In a message dated 1/11/2014 4:15:43 P.M. Central Standard Time,
poit...@pobox.com writes:
Yeah, I didn't think that would work. :) If you're reading this
as I am, all the (well most of) text below ended up as
On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 03:48:45 -0500, Ed Finnell wrote:
It might survive as .txt attachment. Everything else gets sliced and diced.
Depends on the MUA. The text I submitted earlier by email:
== Polyglot ==
A common Russian phrase is ОЧЕНЬ ХОРОШО.
The Greek might be ΠΟΛΥ ΚΑΛΑ.
...
On the several keyboards I have at hand tab is modal, right or left
depending upon the current shift-key setting. The modal marking
appears to be
| tab|
| —— |
| —— |
in which the 'arrowheads' are solid, not open. I should think that
'|' would be adequately perspicuous. The
On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 10:29:22 -0500, John Gilmore wrote:
... [Tabs'] effects depend upon local tab settings, and many
implementations disambiguate them by replacing them with blanks of
currently equivalent effect in saved/stored files.
Thereby sacrificing some small economy of storage. There
IMO, the idea to put tab characters into files is wrong from the beginning.
But of course it comes from the paper tape paradigma, where a file is
historically
a paper tape feeding a teletype machine.
With normal local typewriters, a tab is nothing other than a command
to the
typewriter to
In 1389314155.47172.yahoomail...@web126205.mail.ne1.yahoo.com, on
01/09/2014
at 04:35 PM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com said:
PC ( data using a foreign language Unicode page
What are you trying to say? If the PC is using Unicode then it will
transimit data as UTF-7 or UTF-8, which covers
In 022c01cf0da5$a7b25180$f716f480$@mcn.org, on 01/09/2014
at 05:45 PM, Charles Mills charl...@mcn.org said:
There are several flavors of Unicode, but they relate to how the
code points are stored in a file or transmitted, not to the
character set.
Actually, those are transforms rather than
In 0e75a300-f7c5-46a7-a1d3-7189d2a58...@yahoo.com, on 01/09/2014
at 08:39 PM, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com said:
We send a data message from a pc, we encrypt it with AES128 , the
message is received at the host (z/OS) decrypted then converted from
ascii to ebcdic
If it really was ASCII
In 20140110034419.c71008f...@panix3.panix.com, on 01/09/2014
at 10:44 PM, Don Poitras poit...@pobox.com said:
As of z/OS 2.1, ISPF supports UTF-8, so a binary transfer will still
show an A if it was an A on the PC.
Only if the PC was using UTF-8 or translates to Unicode with UTF-8 as
part of
In
CAArMM9QOFq1jtzwmj=LWHTKkadMzx=aaqppbbqjnk+c8kuz...@mail.gmail.com,
on 01/09/2014
at 09:00 PM, Tony Harminc t...@harminc.net said:
There is no general way to convert UNICODE into EBCDIC,
There are EBCDIC transforms for Unicode. I'm not sure whether that
qulifies as EBCDIC.
--
In
of065337e4.0e9ce2ec-on48257c5c.0027bfa8-48257c5c.00297...@sg.ibm.com,
on 01/10/2014
at 03:30 PM, Timothy Sipples sipp...@sg.ibm.com said:
Somehow I'm reminded of the save two characters impulse which then
caused a lot of angst in preparing for Y2K.
The situations are not comparable. With
In bay177-w36d24c9a61f3b6464b4992f2...@phx.gbl, on 01/10/2014
at 09:36 AM, Harry Wahl harry_w...@hotmail.com said:
You could use the BOM UTF characters
There are none. U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE is a Unicode
character.
usually inserted transparently at the beginning of a UTF file.
In 9931357931112854.wa.paulgboulderaim@listserv.ua.edu, on
01/10/2014
at 08:41 AM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com said:
Notepad? What's that? Perhaps some obsolete predecessor of
Wordpad?
No, it's a superior version of wordpad. HTH.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and
In
CAE1XxDHn0wgwJpm+cNLSdzv=ccvoz1u5o6em7xwxnqs4u0z...@mail.gmail.com,
on 01/10/2014
at 09:50 AM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com said:
As soon, however, as you need to support
o three or more different roman-alphabet natural languages, or
o a roman-alphabet language and a non-alphabetic
In
CAE1XxDHBJRiuFH7N-031xdJ3DUnO6QyG-=otde8fvnc-uyv...@mail.gmail.com,
on 01/10/2014
at 11:02 AM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com said:
The problem is not one of representability but of subset choice.
There is no problem of subset choice, because use of UTF-8 does not
imply a proper subset
In
cae1xxdgwscr+ffp13_rperg4jmkferdgp4f6sxtz7v48o4g...@mail.gmail.com,
on 01/10/2014
at 01:28 PM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com said:
Briefly, effective rules for encoding any 'character' recognized as a
Unicode one as a 'longer' UTF-8 one do not in general exist.
What are you drinking? RFC
In 20140110195944.3d5f333...@panix2.panix.com, on 01/10/2014
at 02:59 PM, Don Poitras poit...@pobox.com said:
As far as 3270 goes, I think it's just going to us the CODEPAGE and
CHARSET you start ISPF with. I think it's going to be limited to the
set of EBCDIC code pages. As this is the first
Two short additions:
first: Regards in the 4th paragraph is a sort of typo,
should read Regarding
second: from the moment on when we terminated to exchange
files by paper tape, we should have stopped to put tabs into files
from that same moment on - if not before. My opinion ...
Kind regards
you have the problem to decide what tab
positions this file is meant to have, and you always have to guess, and it's
wrong most
of the time, and the result looks awful
Your solution would also look awful with proportional text.
-
Ted MacNEIL
eamacn...@yahoo.ca
Twitter: @TedMacNEIL
Am 12.01.2014 19:10, schrieb Ted MacNEIL:
you have the problem to decide what tab
positions this file is meant to have,
and you always have to guess, and it's wrong most
of the time, and the result looks awful
Your solution would also look awful with proportional text.
My focus is on source
On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 18:59:25 +0100, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:
second: from the moment on when we terminated to exchange
files by paper tape, we should have stopped to put tabs into files
from that same moment on - if not before. My opinion ...
Why? Where else would you keep them?
Regards tabs
On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 10:45:23 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
Notepad? What's that? Perhaps some obsolete predecessor of
Wordpad?
No, it's a superior version of wordpad. HTH.
Doesn't understand UNIX line breaks. For me that's a deal breaker.
-- gil
On Linux gedit works fine, on Windows I use Notepad++ which handles Unix
eols and UTF-8
Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
http://dovetail.com
On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 3:28 PM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.comwrote:
On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 10:45:23 -0500, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:
Tabs are useful for formatting input text. I use tab settings of 10,
16. 35, and 72 for HLASM source formatting; but I will not use a text
editor that does not---optionally for those who have other
preferences---replace tabs with blanks during save/storage operations.
Bernd and I are thus in
BTW, Notepad++ is not only free/open source, but it also has the goal of
preventing Global Warming :-)
http://notepad-plus-plus.org/
.. while at the same time likes to show off:
http://notepad-plus-plus.org/features/column-mode-editing.html
Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
I don't generally respond to Shmuel's animadversions. This time,
however, he has crossed the line of civilized behavior.
His experience with Unicode appears to be limited to attentive reading
of its defining documents. Its implementations are, unsurprisingly,
imperfect. In particular the
On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 15:48:49 -0600, Kirk Wolf wrote:
On Linux gedit works fine, on Windows I use Notepad++ which handles Unix
eols and UTF-8
You mean I don't have to wait for Windows 14!? Thanks!
Does it do UNIX eols on in put *and* output? Wordpad only does the
former.
Thanks again,
gil
Some words about editors, tabs, eolchar, eofchar.
The editor which I like most does the following:
- read files that have CRLF eols or LF eols
- output files with CRLF or LF, controlled by an editor setting
- output an EOF char, if desired (0x1a); most of the time, I don't want it
- allow
(Cross posting to ISPF-L and IBM-MAIN)
On 2014-01-10, at 12:59, Don Poitras wrote:
As of z/OS 2.1, ISPF supports UTF-8, so a binary transfer will still show
an A if it
was an A on the PC. ...
What representation does it use in the 3270 data streams? Is
this well documented in the Data
In article e488911a-b303-4d2f-8cf9-247154ab8...@aim.com you wrote:
(Cross posting to ISPF-L and IBM-MAIN)
On 2014-01-10, at 12:59, Don Poitras wrote:
As of z/OS 2.1, ISPF supports UTF-8, so a binary transfer will still show
an A if it
was an A on the PC. ...
What representation
Yeah, I didn't think that would work. :) If you're reading this
as I am, all the (well most of) text below ended up as ??. In
actuality, every ?? was a single width. The first line contains
16 characters with 32 hex bytes underneath. The subsequent lines
are all a single character with 2 hex bytes
Other than with a lot of inferential cleverness, there is no way to look at an
ASCII-like file and tell what the code page is.
The same applies to data encoded in EBCDIC. In fact, files are nothing but a
series of bytes. You always need to know what those byes represent in order to
be able
:01:42 +
From: peter.hunke...@credit-suisse.com
Subject: Re: Subject Unicode
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Other than with a lot of inferential cleverness, there is no way to look at
an ASCII-like file and tell what the code page is.
The same applies to data encoded in EBCDIC. In fact
and UTF-8
won.
Charles
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of John Gilmore
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 6:51 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Subject Unicode
I have refrained from saying anything about this topic
Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Timothy Sipples
Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 11:31 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Subject Unicode
Charles Mills writes:
You could use 16 bits for every character, with some sort of cleverness
that yielded two 16-bit words
Gil:
Co:Z SFTP and DatasetPipes both support any single-byte encoding as well as
UTF-8 when converting to/from datasets. You can use either iconv or
unicode system services, including custom tables and techniques.
Scott:
What is a foreign language Unicode page? Can you give a specific
historical reference 1960-1979
http://www.bobbemer.com/REGISTRY.HTM
ibm major driver behind all this
http://www.bobbemer.com/ZACHERLY.HTM
however, Learson had problem and made decision to temporarily go with
EBCDIDC w/o realizing what he had done (The Biggest Computer Goof Ever)
... and the
Charles
I do not think you read my post at all carefully.
I made it clear that for specific language pairs UTF-8 is adequate if
often clumsy.
For multiple-language environments it is equally clear that it is inadequate.
It is of course true that any grapheme, even say some company's logo
or an
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:02:57 -0500, John Gilmore wrote:
Charles
I do not think you read my post at all carefully.
I made it clear that for specific language pairs UTF-8 is adequate if
often clumsy.
For multiple-language environments it is equally clear that it is inadequate.
It is of course
Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 8:32 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Subject Unicode
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 11:02:57 -0500, John Gilmore wrote:
Charles
I do not think you read
Cute. Notepad still exists in current Windows, btw.
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.comwrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:36:32 -0500, Harry Wahl wrote:
... Windows Notepad is particularly tricky because it adds them without
you realizing it. So whether you look
On 1/10/2014 10:28 AM, zMan wrote:
Cute. Notepad still exists in current Windows, btw.
And it handles utf-8 fine.
-Steve
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.comwrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 09:36:32 -0500, Harry Wahl wrote:
... Windows Notepad is
Paul,
No, I do not accept the premises you set out.
I will try, when I have more time, to make clear why with examples.
Briefly, effective rules for encoding any 'character' recognized as a
Unicode one as a 'longer' UTF-8 one do not in general exist.
Moreover, even when they are available, my
Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of John Gilmore
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 10:28 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Subject Unicode
Paul,
No, I do not accept the premises you set out.
I will try, when I have more time, to make clear why with examples.
Briefly
On Jan 10, 2014, at 12:28 PM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com wrote:
Briefly, effective rules for encoding any 'character' recognized as a
Unicode one as a 'longer' UTF-8 one do not in general exist.
Sure they do. From http://www.unicode.org/faq/utf_bom.html#UTF8:
UTF-8 is the byte-oriented
In article 8790842028980392.wa.paulgboulderaim@listserv.ua.edu you wrote:
On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 22:44:19 -0500, Don Poitras wrote:
As of z/OS 2.1, ISPF supports UTF-8, so a binary transfer will still show an
A if it
was an A on the PC. ...
Does this support both UNIX and legacy files?
On 10 January 2014 13:28, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com wrote:
Briefly, effective rules for encoding any 'character' recognized as a
Unicode one as a 'longer' UTF-8 one do not in general exist.
I am most puzzled to read this. UTF-8 is what Unicode calls a
transform format, and the conversion
I am familiar with Unicode. Wikipedia assertions of this or that
about it do not persuade me of much of anything. Moreover, as a
review of the archives will show, I am an advocate of its use.
I have, however, found all of the UTF-8 implementations I have used
both unsatisfactory and unreliable
, 2014 4:10 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Subject Unicode
I am familiar with Unicode. Wikipedia assertions of this or that
about it do not persuade me of much of anything. Moreover, as a
review of the archives will show, I am an advocate of its use.
I have, however, found all
On Jan 10, 2014, at 3:10 PM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com wrote:
I have, however, found all of the UTF-8 implementations I have used
both unsatisfactory and unreliable in the literal sense that
conversions into UTF-8 from UTF-16 using them do not always yield the
same results.
Is the
I have not been able to identify a defect in the scheme specified for
UTF-16 to UTF-8.
I have pointed to implementations that are sometimes unsuccessful, and
their failures have some common characteristics.
For now, I avoid UTF-8 when I can. I expect that it will be
problem-free at some not at
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:44:10 -0700, Steve Comstock wrote:
On 1/10/2014 10:28 AM, zMan wrote:
Cute. Notepad still exists in current Windows, btw.
And it handles utf-8 fine.
SIGH
Notepad handles UTF-8 fine (on a scientific sample of 1). But it's
utterly ignorant of UNIX line separators.
On 1/10/2014 3:52 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:44:10 -0700, Steve Comstock wrote:
On 1/10/2014 10:28 AM, zMan wrote:
Cute. Notepad still exists in current Windows, btw.
And it handles utf-8 fine.
SIGH
Notepad handles UTF-8 fine (on a scientific sample of 1). But it's
Coming in Windows 14: WordNote, which will handle UTF-8 *and* UNIX line
separators!!!
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.comwrote:
On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 10:44:10 -0700, Steve Comstock wrote:
On 1/10/2014 10:28 AM, zMan wrote:
Cute. Notepad still exists in
All:
I have a fundamental question on Unicode, or more of how it works . I am
confused about the following scenario..
PC ( data using a foreign language Unicode page, like French ) going to z/OS
and being keep in tact. Names and address type data. As the application do I
have to query
On Thu, 9 Jan 2014 16:35:55 -0800, Scott Ford wrote:
All:
�
I have a fundamental question on Unicode, or more of how it works . I am
confused about the following scenario..
PC ( data using a foreign language Unicode page, like French )� going to z/OS
and being keep in tact. Names and
Gil,
We send a data message from a pc, we encrypt it with AES128 , the message is
received at the host (z/OS) decrypted then converted from ascii to ebcdic..so I
am trying to figure out how to
Determine what codepage the pc uses and have z/OS convert it to the proper
EBCDIC codepage from
, 2014 4:36 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Subject Unicode
All:
I have a fundamental question on Unicode, or more of how it works . I am
confused about the following scenario.. PC ( data using a foreign language
Unicode page, like French ) going to z/OS and being keep in tact. Names
Scott - The PC is going to have to provide the codepage of the message data
someplace in the communication protocol. Either as a separate field,
separate message or as a prefix/suffix to the message data.
It will be pretty dicey to attempt to guess the codepage based on the
message data.
One
: Thursday, January 09, 2014 5:39 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Subject Unicode
Gil,
We send a data message from a pc, we encrypt it with AES128 , the message is
received at the host (z/OS) decrypted then converted from ascii to ebcdic..so I
am trying to figure out how to Determine what
On 9 January 2014 20:39, Scott Ford scott_j_f...@yahoo.com wrote:
We send a data message from a pc, we encrypt it with AES128 , the message is
received at the host (z/OS) decrypted then converted from ascii to ebcdic..so
I am trying to figure out how to
Determine what codepage the pc uses
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Subject Unicode
All:
I have a fundamental question on Unicode, or more of how it works . I am
confused about the following scenario.. PC ( data using a foreign language
Unicode page, like French ) going to z/OS and being keep in tact. Names
Charles Mills writes:
You could use 16 bits for every character, with some sort of
cleverness that yielded two 16-bit words when you had a code
point bigger than 65535 (actually somewhat less due to how the
cleverness works). That is called UTF-16. Pretty good but
still not very efficient.
In
74 matches
Mail list logo
