Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
Yes. As far as tooling goes...this is changing, sort of. There are new tools with Ruby/Rails support and Ruby-specific ones hitting the streets. I kind of appreciate the screencast phenomenon...but, I understand your point. That said there are very few Java libs that I've used recently where I was like wow, that's some mmn mmn good documentation. Probably would have to been OpenFire or Spark. Groovy kind of has that same agilish feel - in that the documentation is sparse, but enough. But, the real issue is that Ruby is truly dynamic - whether it run in the JVM or any other VM. Java and Groovy, to some extent, get off easy with tooling. Take this with a grain of salt, but I believe that Ruby's (and Rails') docs suck because nobody cares. If good docs were needed they would sure exist. On Dec 9, 2008, at 10:45 PM, Hollamon, Andrew wrote: I'm not even remotely interested in arguing about which one is 'better' in some global sense. But I will say that Ruby/Rails is a phenomenal platform for a big chunk of the clients we service. The ability to get quality, complete, and very fancy (from an ajax perspective) apps together in an amazingly short time is beyond anything I've ever seen before. There are plenty of situations I wouldn't necessarily want to use it, but in its niche (which is quite large, at least in my world) its just absolutely amazing. There are warts though with Ruby and Rails: Documentation is freaking terrible. Most of the good documentation is in video clips, which just makes me sad. Tools are freaking terrible. Deployment can be downright painful until you get used to the 6000 little quirks of the platform. Even mod_ruby/passenger, which is a nice improvement, is not undocumented-figure-it-out-by-trial-and- error free. All that being said its amazingly fast (to develop in) and productive. The code tends to be quite compact and beautiful. I do miss my interfaces, documentation, and tools from the Java world though. Oh to be able to do an F3 or CTRL-T in my Rails code and just follow the references. Andrew ___ Andrew Hollamon D'Mention Systems, LLC http://dmnsys.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] 520-229-8730 office 520-623-3879 fax Use our online helpdesk: http://helpdesk.dmnsys.com/ -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 7:17 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) RE: Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. From May 08 to Sept 08 Java job demand grew 3 times higher (in raw numbers) than the total Ruby market. But let's not mere facts get in the way of your Java is dead argument. Java continues to dwarf Ruby. And, Ruby does not seem to be picking up a lot of ground. Sure if you start from zero, percentage of growth sky rockets, but Not enough. BTW I prefer Groovy, but I won't claim Ruby is dead. http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java+programming%2C+ruby+programmingl= http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java%2C+rubyl= I am glad to see that Spring source is backing Groovy. I wonder why they did not back Jruby in a similar manner. H - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
This attitude worries me when I see it amongst professional developers. Not depending on the internal implementation details of something is such a fundamental OO and CS tenant, that I cant believe people just accept it as okay. You should _never_ write code that depends on the deep dark details of that particular version's implementation if at all possible to avoid it. That's just bad. It results in tightly coupled code that will break with minor version upgrades or bug fixes in the platform. A language/framework should publish a contract (whether that be interfaces, documentation, or whatever) that users can adhere to, without having to worry about how its implemented, which could change from minor version to minor version. A great example is the question of what are all the possible symbols that you can pass to the 'head' command in a Rails controller. Not documented anywhere. You have to dig through the code, and even then its not simply laid out. There are many cases like that. Drives me batty. Mind you, I'm still using Ruby and Rails like crazy right now, because for the smaller-ish apps that we do a lot of, it cant be beat. But stuff like creating implementation dependencies just drives me up the wall. Andrew ___ Andrew Hollamon D'Mention Systems, LLC http://dmnsys.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] 520-229-8730 office 520-623-3879 fax Use our online helpdesk: http://helpdesk.dmnsys.com/ -Original Message- From: Chad Woolley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 10:31 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) snip / Also, Ruby tends to be so clean that you can often see what is going on just by digging a short way into the library. Agreed, for many people (Java developers) would be aghast at (code is the documentation), and consider it a drawback of Ruby, but I think that is one of the differences in the cultures. In dynamic languages (won't even exclude Groovy), it's so easy to reopen classes and hack what you want, you spend a lot more time digging in, understanding, changing, and extending the libraries you use. snip / - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu. Nick On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app. As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby. However, this is the JUG list, and the question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here before ;) Depending on the target deployment environment (windows? lots of users? Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks). -- Chad PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice... On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu. Nick On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
heheh and my language of choice... java. Thanks all. It'll be good to put your faces to your names at the party. Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:11 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app. As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby. However, this is the JUG list, and the question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here before ;) Depending on the target deployment environment (windows? lots of users? Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks). -- Chad PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice... On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu. Nick On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This email (and all attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain privileged and/or proprietary information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
Ah ha! Victory is mine! She takes her first step towards the Groovy darkside without even knowing it. None of this Ruby rebel scum for her! When you can snatch the closure from my hand DBA, then your training will be complete. ;) -Todd Happy Holidays! *** Todd R. Ellermann VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com Founder Webagogy.com Researcher Betterwebapp.com Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 805-850-8044 cell *** Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or a WildDevil? Go Cats! ...said with a Devilish grin ;) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Cc: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 1:47:22 PM Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) heheh and my language of choice... java. Thanks all. It'll be good to put your faces to your names at the party. Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:11 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app. As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby. However, this is the JUG list, and the question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here before ;) Depending on the target deployment environment (windows? lots of users? Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks). -- Chad PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice... On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu. Nick On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This email (and all attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain privileged and/or proprietary information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
ah well... not the first time I've stumbled into a darkside. ;-) Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:55 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) Ah ha! Victory is mine! She takes her first step towards the Groovy darkside without even knowing it. None of this Ruby rebel scum for her! When you can snatch the closure from my hand DBA, then your training will be complete. ;) -Todd Happy Holidays! *** Todd R. Ellermann VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com Founder Webagogy.com Researcher Betterwebapp.com Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 805-850-8044 cell *** Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or a WildDevil? Go Cats! ...said with a Devilish grin ;) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Cc: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 1:47:22 PM Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) heheh and my language of choice... java. Thanks all. It'll be good to put your faces to your names at the party. Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:11 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app. As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby. However, this is the JUG list, and the question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here before ;) Depending on the target deployment environment (windows? lots of users? Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks). -- Chad PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice... On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu. Nick On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This email (and all attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain privileged and/or proprietary information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
Darkside? You know Haskell? On Dec 9, 2008, at 3:06 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ah well... not the first time I've stumbled into a darkside. ;-) Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:55 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) Ah ha! Victory is mine! She takes her first step towards the Groovy darkside without even knowing it. None of this Ruby rebel scum for her! When you can snatch the closure from my hand DBA, then your training will be complete. ;) -Todd Happy Holidays! *** Todd R. Ellermann VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com Founder Webagogy.com Researcher Betterwebapp.com Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 805-850-8044 cell *** Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or a WildDevil? Go Cats! ...said with a Devilish grin ;) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Cc: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 1:47:22 PM Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) heheh and my language of choice... java. Thanks all. It'll be good to put your faces to your names at the party. Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:11 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app. As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby. However, this is the JUG list, and the question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here before ;) Depending on the target deployment environment (windows? lots of users? Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks). -- Chad PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice... On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu. Nick On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This email (and all attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain privileged and/or proprietary information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
Eddie Haskell from Leave It to Beaver? :-) Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Kit Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 03:36 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) Darkside? You know Haskell? On Dec 9, 2008, at 3:06 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ah well... not the first time I've stumbled into a darkside. ;-) Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:55 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) Ah ha! Victory is mine! She takes her first step towards the Groovy darkside without even knowing it. None of this Ruby rebel scum for her! When you can snatch the closure from my hand DBA, then your training will be complete. ;) -Todd Happy Holidays! *** Todd R. Ellermann VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com Founder Webagogy.com Researcher Betterwebapp.com Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 805-850-8044 cell *** Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or a WildDevil? Go Cats! ...said with a Devilish grin ;) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Cc: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 1:47:22 PM Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) heheh and my language of choice... java. Thanks all. It'll be good to put your faces to your names at the party. Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:11 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app. As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby. However, this is the JUG list, and the question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here before ;) Depending on the target deployment environment (windows? lots of users? Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks). -- Chad PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice... On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu. Nick On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
well. not from the get-go. one eye with a set of rods and cones, little photopigments on outer membranes reacting to light, isomerizing, creating a graded potential, sending the signal to the ganglia and down the optic nerve to the brain. fun, huh? Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Kit Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 04:01 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) I'm guessing you'll have performance requirements - that'll require taking advantage of multi-cores, or parallelization? If so, try that Google search again. On Dec 9, 2008, at 3:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eddie Haskell from Leave It to Beaver? :-) Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Kit Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 03:36 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) Darkside? You know Haskell? On Dec 9, 2008, at 3:06 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ah well... not the first time I've stumbled into a darkside. ;-) Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:55 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) Ah ha! Victory is mine! She takes her first step towards the Groovy darkside without even knowing it. None of this Ruby rebel scum for her! When you can snatch the closure from my hand DBA, then your training will be complete. ;) -Todd Happy Holidays! *** Todd R. Ellermann VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com Founder Webagogy.com Researcher Betterwebapp.com Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 805-850-8044 cell *** Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or a WildDevil? Go Cats! ...said with a Devilish grin ;) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Cc: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 1:47:22 PM Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) heheh and my language of choice... java. Thanks all. It'll be good to put your faces to your names at the party. Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:11 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app. As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby. However, this is the JUG list, and the question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here before ;) Depending on the target deployment environment (windows? lots of users? Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks). -- Chad PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice... On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu. Nick On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
RE: Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. From May 08 to Sept 08 Java job demand grew 3 times higher (in raw numbers) than the total Ruby market. But let's not mere facts get in the way of your Java is dead argument. Java continues to dwarf Ruby. And, Ruby does not seem to be picking up a lot of ground. Sure if you start from zero, percentage of growth sky rockets, but Not enough. BTW I prefer Groovy, but I won't claim Ruby is dead. http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java+programming%2C+ruby+programmingl= http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java%2C+rubyl= I am glad to see that Spring source is backing Groovy. I wonder why they did not back Jruby in a similar manner. H On 12/9/08 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
