Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
> IIRC, Sim City is one of Ken Livingstone's favorites. There can't be the option to revoke all bird feed sellers permits.
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Alex Page ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:27:18AM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: > > > It should be mandatory for all public servants to be adept at Sim > > City. > > IIRC, Sim City is one of Ken Livingstone's favorites. > yip, and all devoted Sim City fan's sooner or later get bored and decided to see how they can screw up their City. Oh I know i'll make trafalgar square a pedestrian only zone -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
David Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 03:34:31PM +, Leon Brocard wrote: > > > OK. We might as well do this quickly, how about Monday 12.30 at the > > New World restaurant in Chinatown. Everyone who is vaguely interested > > in a Perl Consultancy of some sort is invited. > > Count me in. > > The New World's on Gerrard St, isn't it? Gerrard Place. -- Piers
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
From: "Greg Cope" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > No - just dont like the gun ho lets fry anyone on deathrow - and now a a > great chestnut one of them got to be president ... Fear not so much a leader of the Free World(tm) who is demonstrably unable to form grammatically correct sentences in his one, only native tongue but the fact that he's attempting to install one of the most hard-right anti-choice judges in existence to Attorney General. Abortion is barely even legal here; they'll be chasing womens' right to vote next... > > No, cable installation "engineers". All cable company phone > > support/accounts. > > Luckily I've not suffered from those. http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/5/16186.html Paul
RE: RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
> From: Paul Makepeace [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > From: "David Cantrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Is a million considered a lot in the UK still? > > > > Not by people who can add up. > > OK, same here then. Having said that, it's amazing how much people can > stretch a few $currency_unit if they *don't* have investment :-) > > > > But then so's a 24hr stretch of uninterrupted electricity > > > > Yeah, it's always amazed me just how crap the north > American power system > > seems to be. Even in cities. > > This is a different issue, > http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/power.crisis/ > > The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high > water tables, > vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on > hosting in Texas > (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively > earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free! > > On the upside, the US doesn't have BT "engineers" to deal with... > No, the US has PacBell engineers and countless tin-pot, unregulated ISPs who offer you DSL service, take your deposit money and then promptly go bust FSCKRS Oh, and none of these people ever talk to each other. mail to DSL provider: Where's my DSL? Reply: problems with PacBell. We'll get back to you 2 weeks later: mail to DSL provider (COVAD): Where's my DSL? Reply: Please contact your ISP. mail to ISP:Where's my DSL eh? It's been four weeks since you mailed me to expect a visit from PacBell 'within the next few days'. Reply: SILENCE Call ISP to shout at automated call-handler: WHERE's MY DSL!! Reply: Sorry, due to the number of enquiries, we're unable to take your call at present. please call back. mail to DSL provider: I can't get through to my ISP, either by phone or email, will you please cancel the order Reply: Please contact your ISP. Oh, well, that's a $50 deposit blown away. rant over...idleness resumed. andy
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 03:34:31PM +, Leon Brocard wrote: > OK. We might as well do this quickly, how about Monday 12.30 at the > New World restaurant in Chinatown. Everyone who is vaguely interested > in a Perl Consultancy of some sort is invited. Count me in. The New World's on Gerrard St, isn't it? -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:27:18AM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: > It should be mandatory for all public servants to be adept at Sim > City. IIRC, Sim City is one of Ken Livingstone's favorites. Alex
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
At 14:55 19/01/01, Neil Ford wrote: > >Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >Mmmm... so, when are we going to have a meeting about all this? >Well seeing as I will be amongst the great unwashed from next week, >anytime soon would be good. Me too!
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
At 15:49 19/01/01, Dave Cross wrote: >I'd love to come along, but probably wouldn't have time to get there >and back during lunch. Can we do it one evening? An evening would be better for me, too... Natalie
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Leon Brocard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Dave Hodgkinson sent the following bits through the ether: > > > Sounds like a table at the New World one lunchtime... > > OK. We might as well do this quickly, how about Monday 12.30 at the > New World restaurant in Chinatown. Everyone who is vaguely > interested in a Perl Consultancy of some sort is invited. People > with business sense needed too, though: offices, computers and > bandwidth don't come cheap. Put me down for that. Might bring Gill as well. -- Piers
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Dave Cross sent the following bits through the ether: > I'd love to come along, but probably wouldn't have time to get there > and back during lunch. Can we do it one evening? OK, Penderel's Oak 6.30pm for those who can't make it to lunch. I'll go to both and take notes. Leon -- Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/ yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/ ... All new improved Brocard, now with Template Toolkit!
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
At Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:34:31 +, Leon Brocard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dave Hodgkinson sent the following bits through the ether: > > > Sounds like a table at the New World one lunchtime... > > OK. We might as well do this quickly, how about Monday 12.30 at the > New World restaurant in Chinatown. Everyone who is vaguely interested > in a Perl Consultancy of some sort is invited. People with business > sense needed too, though: offices, computers and bandwidth don't come > cheap. I'd love to come along, but probably wouldn't have time to get there and back during lunch. Can we do it one evening? Dave...
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Dave Hodgkinson sent the following bits through the ether: > Sounds like a table at the New World one lunchtime... OK. We might as well do this quickly, how about Monday 12.30 at the New World restaurant in Chinatown. Everyone who is vaguely interested in a Perl Consultancy of some sort is invited. People with business sense needed too, though: offices, computers and bandwidth don't come cheap. Leon -- Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/ yapc::Europehttp://yapc.org/Europe/ ... All new improved Brocard, now with Template Toolkit!
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Neil Ford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > >> Piers Cawley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> > >> > Big monitors on workstations are *not* rewards. They are essential > >> > tools for the job. Anything smaller than 19" is rapidly approaching > >> > too cramped for serious work. TFT monitors on workstations are > >> > rewards... > >> > >> 19" on the first port of the G400, a TFT on the second? > > > >Mmmm... so, when are we going to have a meeting about all this? > > Well seeing as I will be amongst the great unwashed from next week, > anytime soon would be good. Sounds like a table at the New World one lunchtime... -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Piers Cawley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Big monitors on workstations are *not* rewards. They are essential > > tools for the job. Anything smaller than 19" is rapidly approaching > > too cramped for serious work. TFT monitors on workstations are > > rewards... > > 19" on the first port of the G400, a TFT on the second? Mmmm... so, when are we going to have a meeting about all this?
RE: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
> From: Greg McCarroll [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > write a suggestions document of where the project management and > management functions are going wrong > > if they ignore it leave Do you know anywhere this has happened Greg? ;-)
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 10:32:16AM +, Michael Stevens wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:42:11AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > > > > yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a > > > > client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it .. > > > > just charge em bigtime! > > > nope this is where your pimp/MD should of tied up the contract watertight, > > > so if they change their mind the deadline changes > > What do you do where this is not the case, other than think about finding > > a new job? > > Although, thinking about it, I can also note that the "find a new job" approach > seems to work... write a suggestions document of where the project management and management functions are going wrong if they ignore it leave -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Piers Cawley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Big monitors on workstations are *not* rewards. They are essential > tools for the job. Anything smaller than 19" is rapidly approaching > too cramped for serious work. TFT monitors on workstations are > rewards... 19" on the first port of the G400, a TFT on the second? Dave // on his latptop even though there's a 19" right next to it... -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 10:32:16AM +, Michael Stevens wrote: > On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:42:11AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > > > yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a > > > client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it .. > > > just charge em bigtime! > > nope this is where your pimp/MD should of tied up the contract watertight, > > so if they change their mind the deadline changes > What do you do where this is not the case, other than think about finding > a new job? Although, thinking about it, I can also note that the "find a new job" approach seems to work... Michael
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Greg Cope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > IMHO developers should be given the environment that is what makes them > > confotable, an IBM research center was on the telly the other day that > > had a big open plan style area, as well as individaul offices, as well > > as Lego. The environment was totally focused to nuturing developers so > > that they create (hopefully good, bug-free(TM) code). > > Sounds like extreme programming to me... I *so* want to try this. I'm getting fed up of being sole programmer on projects. -- Piers
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
David Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:51:18PM +, Greg Cope wrote: > > > What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not > > mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ... > > Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad > idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters. You just don't write good > code at 2 in the morning, and end up spending just as much time untangling > it as you did writing it in the first place. And in any case, if you > *need* to work all night, there's something wrong with the project > management. Oh yeah, we'd need to have project management skillz in the > group too. No need for a whole project mangler though to start with. > > As for toys - if they're not the *useful* sort of toy then they should be > rewards*, as opposed to being there right from the start. That way they > become a motivational tool. Although to be honest, I wouldn't be motivated > by lots of the things numija companies think are motivating like PS2s. > I'd be more for getting a bigger monitor on my workstation, or a punchbag > for the office. Or some clean jerrycans :-) Big monitors on workstations are *not* rewards. They are essential tools for the job. Anything smaller than 19" is rapidly approaching too cramped for serious work. TFT monitors on workstations are rewards... > * - eg, when the first big fat cheque arrives from a happy client, > get a PS 2. When we hit milestones *on time* in the next > project, get another game for it. Modulo the PS2 not necessarily being a motivator, that sounds like a plan. -- Piers
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
David Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:42:55PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > > * Leo Lapworth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > People (no particular order): > > > > > > = Pimp = = Accountant = > > > = BOFH = = Security Guru = > > > = Perl Gurus' = = Perl Trainee Gurus = > > > > i'd add an MD/CEO who would initially do a lot of the > > pimping, the accountant could initially also be outsourced. > > the BOFH and Security Guru could be rolled into one. > > i'd also hire non-Perl programmers so that you didn't > > just have one leg to the stool > > Seems reasonable. Also think about Oracle and Sybase wizards > (combined with the BOFH and/or $language Guru roles initially) and > an NT person. Actually, *all* the tech people should be sufficiently > multi-skilled to be able to do two things reasonably well - that way > it's easier to pimp them, they can command more dosh, and they (and > the company) are protected if one of their skills goes badly out of > fashion. And one of the goals of gurus within the consultancy should be to help train up other folks who want to pick up that skill. Preferably in an environment where something real is being acheived. > > > Money: > > > Base salary and split proffit according to which category your in. > > > > founders split say 50% of the equity, 25% reserved for latecomers > > and 25% pencilled for VC types > > Just wait for the arguing about how that 50% gets split! That 50% gets split equally among the founding partners. > > > Open source / clients: > > > Create projects for open source community (sell to clients > > > with support). When not assigned to a specific money > > > making project or client create next project to OS and > > > make money from. > > > > agreed! > > Yup. Plan to make money from support contracts on this open source > stuff, and also from being a 'preferred implementor' using it. Indeed. Ooh, this sounds very tempting. -- Piers
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Fri, Jan 19, 2001 at 09:42:11AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > > yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a > > client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it .. > > just charge em bigtime! > nope this is where your pimp/MD should of tied up the contract watertight, > so if they change their mind the deadline changes What do you do where this is not the case, other than think about finding a new job? Michael
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Dave Hodgkinson wrote: > > Greg Cope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Dave Hodgkinson wrote: > > > > > > "Paul Makepeace" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > > > > The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables, > > > > vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas > > > > (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively > > > > earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free! > > > > > > You're talking rackspace.com, I take it? ;-) > > > > Are they not in New York ? > > No. San Antonio if traceroutes are to be believed. I'll shut up then ;-0 > > > > > Dellhost are in texas - which I destest due to its attitude to capital > > P. > > You not been following the Confederacy conspiracy? > No - just dont like the gun ho lets fry anyone on deathrow - and now a a great chestnut one of them got to be president ... > > What like americans ? > > > > (present american company excluded) > > No, cable installation "engineers". All cable company phone > support/accounts. > Luckily I've not suffered from those. Greg > -- > Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org > Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com > Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire > -
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
David Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > And the UK doesn't have high water tables (in some places and not in others, > just like anywhere else) or vicious weather (again, in some places not in > others, just like anywhere else). But it strikes me as being absurd that I > hear EVERY YEAR of the power going out for large areas of major cities in > .us, something which just doesn't happen in Europe. It should be mandatory for all public servants to be adept at Sim City. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Greg Cope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > IMHO developers should be given the environment that is what makes them > confotable, an IBM research center was on the telly the other day that > had a big open plan style area, as well as individaul offices, as well > as Lego. The environment was totally focused to nuturing developers so > that they create (hopefully good, bug-free(TM) code). Sounds like extreme programming to me... -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Greg Cope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Dave Hodgkinson wrote: > > > > "Paul Makepeace" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > > The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables, > > > vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas > > > (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively > > > earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free! > > > > You're talking rackspace.com, I take it? ;-) > > Are they not in New York ? No. San Antonio if traceroutes are to be believed. > > Dellhost are in texas - which I destest due to its attitude to capital > P. You not been following the Confederacy conspiracy? > What like americans ? > > (present american company excluded) No, cable installation "engineers". All cable company phone support/accounts. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Robin Szemeti ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, you wrote: > > > Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad > > idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters. You just don't write good > > code at 2 in the morning, and end up spending just as much time untangling > > it as you did writing it in the first place. > > yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a > client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it .. > just charge em bigtime! > nope this is where your pimp/MD should of tied up the contract watertight, so if they change their mind the deadline changes > and 2 because I was just so tied up in it and it was going so well that I > didn;t want to stop .. so I didn't ... the code from the latter is > untouched to date and some of the better code I've written. thats fine, but if you have such commitment to work surely you could grab a hotel that the business is friendly with and put it on expenses > play. One of the reason I hated a 9 to 5 job was people asking me to do > hard things before lunchtime and having to quit doing hard things because > it was 5:00. this is fine for internal work, but wrong for our earlier discussion about consultancy > > And in any case, if you > > *need* to work all night, there's something wrong with the project > > management. agreed > no matter how well planned the project I have yet to find a client who > hasn;t kept some small but deadly surprise as a secret to throw in just > when they know its getting close. Some of these bombshells are smaller > than others .. but they always seem to be there, waiting ... no problem > .. just expect em an be prepared .. and charge em BigTime :) how do you think IBM deal with this? if the client adds some crap, they change the deadlines/cost greg -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Greg Cope ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > Thats were a few people have gone wrong lately then ;-) > yup -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Steve Mynott ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Greg McCarroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > * Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > > > > Also many hackers have more business sense than their MDs - look at > > > success of projects started by hackers or engineers versus that of those > > > started by MBAs or middle managers.. > > > > > > > business sense != project sucess > > why not? I would have thought similar skills were involved in both? > i used to think so, but having seen business ``hackers'' at work i have seen the light. there is a breed of person who is so skilled at hacking the business system/structures especially inter-business arrangements that they have an entirely different skillset looking back at Aaron's post i agree with him on middle management but not wrt good MD's -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Robin Szemeti wrote: > > On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, you wrote: > > > Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad > > idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters. You just don't write good > > code at 2 in the morning, and end up spending just as much time untangling > > it as you did writing it in the first place. > > yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a > client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it .. > just charge em bigtime! > > Personally I have done (thinks) about 4 this year ... two of them due to > sudden arrival of previously unannounced deadline .. (result: badly > implemented crap code, stress, huge costs and a re write a week later) > and 2 because I was just so tied up in it and it was going so well that I > didn;t want to stop .. so I didn't ... the code from the latter is > untouched to date and some of the better code I've written. > > There is nothing wrong per-se with working on into the night ... the lack > of interruption and no pesky phones ringing can be the ideal time to > engross yourself in the trickiest and most complex of problems ... but > trying to hack something together whilst knackered is a recipie for > disaster. My motto: if it feels good, do it. Code when you feel at your > most productive, if you don;t think your minds on the job bale out and > play. One of the reason I hated a 9 to 5 job was people asking me to do > hard things before lunchtime and having to quit doing hard things because > it was 5:00. > > > And in any case, if you > > *need* to work all night, there's something wrong with the project > > management. > > no matter how well planned the project I have yet to find a client who > hasn;t kept some small but deadly surprise as a secret to throw in just > when they know its getting close. Some of these bombshells are smaller > than others .. but they always seem to be there, waiting ... no problem > .. just expect em an be prepared .. and charge em BigTime :) Have you done much stuff under a DSDM style - ie. qrite a quick protype and then iterate on that ? (massive internal rewrites are allowed under this as it tries to stress the interface / functionality not the internal implentation) Greg > > I would be VERY interrested in working on a project managed by the XP > method. It sounds to good to be true, (and I;ve done enough project > managment to know that it probably is too good to be true) but I shure > would like to give it a go. > > -- > Robin Szemeti > > The box said "requires windows 95 or better" > So I installed Linux!
Re: RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 12:11:23PM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote: > From: "David Cantrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Yeah, it's always amazed me just how crap the north American power system > > seems to be. Even in cities. > > This is a different issue, http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/power.crisis/ I know :-) Although actually, I feel it is at least a bit related. It seems that CA tried to copy the de-regulation which was implemented in various parts of Europe (including the UK) but that they decided to tamper with a system which demonstrably worked (if it ain't broke don't fix it!), but worse, they tried to shoe-horn it into a completely different environment. The UK has for many years had a fair amount of spare generating capacity, and there are new power stations being built. CA did not have any spare generating capacity of note, and has not built any new power stations. Duh. > The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables, > vicious weather and earthquakes. And the UK doesn't have high water tables (in some places and not in others, just like anywhere else) or vicious weather (again, in some places not in others, just like anywhere else). But it strikes me as being absurd that I hear EVERY YEAR of the power going out for large areas of major cities in .us, something which just doesn't happen in Europe. > The smart money goes on hosting in Texas > (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively > earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free! > > On the upside, the US doesn't have BT "engineers" to deal with... Nah, you just have their cousins in the baby bells :-) Actually, I've had no problems with BT engineers in the three years I've lived here. My voice line came in just fine and has never stopped working. Same with the ISDN, and the ADSL line. Telewest, on the other hand - I wouldn't trust them to run the hundred yard dash, let alone my comms. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, you wrote: > Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad > idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters. You just don't write good > code at 2 in the morning, and end up spending just as much time untangling > it as you did writing it in the first place. yes and no. If you need to do an allnighter and its unavoidable (due to a client suddenly changing ther mind) then theres no problem doing it .. just charge em bigtime! Personally I have done (thinks) about 4 this year ... two of them due to sudden arrival of previously unannounced deadline .. (result: badly implemented crap code, stress, huge costs and a re write a week later) and 2 because I was just so tied up in it and it was going so well that I didn;t want to stop .. so I didn't ... the code from the latter is untouched to date and some of the better code I've written. There is nothing wrong per-se with working on into the night ... the lack of interruption and no pesky phones ringing can be the ideal time to engross yourself in the trickiest and most complex of problems ... but trying to hack something together whilst knackered is a recipie for disaster. My motto: if it feels good, do it. Code when you feel at your most productive, if you don;t think your minds on the job bale out and play. One of the reason I hated a 9 to 5 job was people asking me to do hard things before lunchtime and having to quit doing hard things because it was 5:00. > And in any case, if you > *need* to work all night, there's something wrong with the project > management. no matter how well planned the project I have yet to find a client who hasn;t kept some small but deadly surprise as a secret to throw in just when they know its getting close. Some of these bombshells are smaller than others .. but they always seem to be there, waiting ... no problem .. just expect em an be prepared .. and charge em BigTime :) I would be VERY interrested in working on a project managed by the XP method. It sounds to good to be true, (and I;ve done enough project managment to know that it probably is too good to be true) but I shure would like to give it a go. -- Robin Szemeti The box said "requires windows 95 or better" So I installed Linux!
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Dave Hodgkinson wrote: > > "Paul Makepeace" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables, > > vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas > > (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively > > earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free! > > You're talking rackspace.com, I take it? ;-) Are they not in New York ? Dellhost are in texas - which I destest due to its attitude to capital P. > > > > > On the upside, the US doesn't have BT "engineers" to deal with... > > Trust me, they have much, much worse... What like americans ? (present american company excluded) Greg > > -- > Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org > Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com > Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire > -
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
David Cantrell wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:51:18PM +, Greg Cope wrote: > > > What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not > > mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ... > > Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad > idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters. You just don't write good > code at 2 in the morning, and end up spending just as much time untangling > it as you did writing it in the first place. And in any case, if you > *need* to work all night, there's something wrong with the project > management. Oh yeah, we'd need to have project management skillz in the > group too. No need for a whole project mangler though to start with. I was thinking of my mid afternoon kip, before going down stairs to the pub! I was only joking ;-) Totaly agree with the all nighter bit above. > > As for toys - if they're not the *useful* sort of toy then they should be > rewards*, as opposed to being there right from the start. That way they > become a motivational tool. Although to be honest, I wouldn't be motivated > by lots of the things numija companies think are motivating like PS2s. > I'd be more for getting a bigger monitor on my workstation, or a punchbag > for the office. Or some clean jerrycans :-) > > * - eg, when the first big fat cheque arrives from a happy client, get > a PS 2. When we hit milestones *on time* in the next project, get another > game for it. Ah, now motivational thoery is totally different - a PS2 is not that motivational for me, and I would imaging alot of people. What _is_ probably motivational about a PS2 equiped office is the environment that allows you to play with a PS2. IMHO developers should be given the environment that is what makes them confotable, an IBM research center was on the telly the other day that had a big open plan style area, as well as individaul offices, as well as Lego. The environment was totally focused to nuturing developers so that they create (hopefully good, bug-free(TM) code). What people seem to be missing is that you need clients - once you've got some doing the code is the easy bit. Greg > > -- > David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ > >Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
"Paul Makepeace" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables, > vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas > (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively > earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free! You're talking rackspace.com, I take it? ;-) > > On the upside, the US doesn't have BT "engineers" to deal with... Trust me, they have much, much worse... -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
From: "David Cantrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Is a million considered a lot in the UK still? > > Not by people who can add up. OK, same here then. Having said that, it's amazing how much people can stretch a few $currency_unit if they *don't* have investment :-) > > But then so's a 24hr stretch of uninterrupted electricity > > Yeah, it's always amazed me just how crap the north American power system > seems to be. Even in cities. This is a different issue, http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/power.crisis/ The US has much more to worry about than the UK, like high water tables, vicious weather and earthquakes. The smart money goes on hosting in Texas (San Antonio) not California though -- relatively earthquake/tornado/storm/etc-free! On the upside, the US doesn't have BT "engineers" to deal with... Paul
Re: RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 09:51:25AM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote: > Is a million considered a lot in the UK still? Not by people who can add up. One million will pay for ten average peoples' salaries etc plus overheads - like an office, stationery, power, heat, comms, computers, insurance - for ONE YEAR assuming no profits. It amazes me that companies are proud of raising that much capital, and then aim for a (say) nine month development period. Of course, after the product is ready you have to market it, and initial sales are slow - and then one day you suddenly realise that you have no capital left and you're fucked. I'm talking in UKP, BTW, not USD. > But then so's a 24hr stretch of uninterrupted electricity Yeah, it's always amazed me just how crap the north American power system seems to be. Even in cities. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Greg McCarroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > * Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > > Also many hackers have more business sense than their MDs - look at > > success of projects started by hackers or engineers versus that of those > > started by MBAs or middle managers.. > > > > business sense != project sucess why not? I would have thought similar skills were involved in both? -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] brook's law: adding manpower to a late software project makes it later
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:51:18PM +, Greg Cope wrote: > What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not > mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ... Having something to crash on when pulling an all-nighter is, IMO, a bad idea as it encourages pulling all-nighters. You just don't write good code at 2 in the morning, and end up spending just as much time untangling it as you did writing it in the first place. And in any case, if you *need* to work all night, there's something wrong with the project management. Oh yeah, we'd need to have project management skillz in the group too. No need for a whole project mangler though to start with. As for toys - if they're not the *useful* sort of toy then they should be rewards*, as opposed to being there right from the start. That way they become a motivational tool. Although to be honest, I wouldn't be motivated by lots of the things numija companies think are motivating like PS2s. I'd be more for getting a bigger monitor on my workstation, or a punchbag for the office. Or some clean jerrycans :-) * - eg, when the first big fat cheque arrives from a happy client, get a PS 2. When we hit milestones *on time* in the next project, get another game for it. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:42:55PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > * Leo Lapworth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > People (no particular order): > > > > = Pimp = = Accountant = > > = BOFH = = Security Guru = > > = Perl Gurus' = = Perl Trainee Gurus = > > i'd add an MD/CEO who would initially do a lot of the > pimping, the accountant could initially also be outsourced. > the BOFH and Security Guru could be rolled into one. > i'd also hire non-Perl programmers so that you didn't > just have one leg to the stool Seems reasonable. Also think about Oracle and Sybase wizards (combined with the BOFH and/or $language Guru roles initially) and an NT person. Actually, *all* the tech people should be sufficiently multi-skilled to be able to do two things reasonably well - that way it's easier to pimp them, they can command more dosh, and they (and the company) are protected if one of their skills goes badly out of fashion. > > Money: > > Base salary and split proffit according to which category your in. > > founders split say 50% of the equity, 25% reserved for latecomers > and 25% pencilled for VC types Just wait for the arguing about how that 50% gets split! > > Open source / clients: > > Create projects for open source community (sell to clients > > with support). When not assigned to a specific money > > making project or client create next project to OS and > > make money from. > > agreed! Yup. Plan to make money from support contracts on this open source stuff, and also from being a 'preferred implementor' using it. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, you wrote: > People (no particular order): > > == > = Pimp = = Accountant = > == > > == = > = BOFH = = Security Guru = > == = > > === === > = Perl Gurus' = = Perl Trainee Gurus = > === === > ooh .. if you have room for an almost acceptable Perl programmer with a total inability to turn up on time, and an even worse habit of working too long, let me know... I'll be in for a bit of that. If its any consolation I'm not as crap now as I was 6 months ago .. and a whole lot less crap than I was a year ago ... and I know a Security Guru who would probably be up for it as well .. and hes a proper one too, I believe his wardrobe has all three shades of hat :) -- Robin Szemeti The box said "requires windows 95 or better" So I installed Linux!
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, you wrote: > There's a difference between what the conslutant gets and what the client > pays! not here at 'Redpoint Consulting' there isn't :) -- Robin Szemeti The box said "requires windows 95 or better" So I installed Linux!
Re: RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
From: "Leo Lapworth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I've got a contact who says he can get hold of a million or > so VC if this was an actually business plan, but then you > have to pay them back with interest and stuff. That's not VC then, that's a "loan". VC is where you heave up a huge chunk of cash in return for a chunk of company and hope said company doesn't end up being laughed at and taunted on fuckedcompany.com Is a million considered a lot in the UK still? It's considered a lot over here right now :-) But then so's a 24hr stretch of uninterrupted electricity :-( Anyway, the longer you leave obtaining angel, seed and VC cash and the more you can generate a demonstrably working revenue model the better. Consider VC a last resort -- aim rather for alliances and partnerships, or a straight out acquisition. Paul
[Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
In a bad mailbox incident I lost a couple of mails from BOFH inclined people. Would y'all mail me again please? Ta, Dave -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Greg McCarroll wrote: > > * Greg Cope ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > Leo Lapworth wrote: > > > > > > > > > Location > > > A big pub in central London. > > > Top floors: development > > > Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops > > > Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc.. > > > > What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not > > mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ... > > > > nope, they are rewards, rewards are for sucess ;-) Thats were a few people have gone wrong lately then ;-) > > -- > Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
RE: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Neil> So who's any good at business plans... (I have a book but) I know a few things about setting up and running SMEs. Happy to sit down for an hour or so one evening with someone if it would be of assistance. Unfortunately, I'm far too tied up with current venture to get much more involved than this. Regs, J. . Message Central plc Suite K307 Tower Bridge Business Complex 100 Clements Road London SE16 4DG Web: www.msgc.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: +44 20 7394 9511 Fax: +44 20 7231 8201 If you receive this email by mistake, please destroy your copy, having returned this copy to the sender. This email and any attachments to it may have been tampered with. Message Central plc cannot warrant the accuracy, completeness or freedom from viruses of this email or any attachments. You are strongly advised to check this email for viruses before downloading or opening any attachments. Opinions expressed in this email are those of the author and not of Message Central plc. -Original Message- From: Neil Ford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 18 January 2001 04:33 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered [snip the first bit... all great] > >Location > A big pub in central London. > Top floors: development > Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops Purleese wireless is the only way to go. :-) > Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc.. > >I've got a contact who says he can get hold of a million or >so VC if this was an actually business plan, but then you >have to pay them back with interest and stuff. > >Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one. > So who's any good at business plans... (I have a book but) Neil. -- Neil C. Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.binky.ourshack.org
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Greg Cope ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Leo Lapworth wrote: > > > > > > Location > > A big pub in central London. > > Top floors: development > > Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops > > Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc.. > > What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not > mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ... > nope, they are rewards, rewards are for sucess ;-) -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Tony Bowden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:42:55PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > > > have to pay them back with interest and stuff. > > equity surely? ;-) > > Yes. But if you're successful the "interest" rate is huge ;) > > But if you're not, well, they lose the money and not you. > > FWIW It's much easier to negotiate with VCs if you're already > well established and actually have revenue and commitments and > stuff > well, this is all getting a bit close to the grain for me, if anyone wants to discuss the possibilities of a non-perl specialised arena consultancy feel free to to email me off list, however there may be nasty NDA's involved -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Leo Lapworth wrote: > > > Location > A big pub in central London. > Top floors: development > Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops > Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc.. What about a bed / kip room and of course a play room - and I do not mean some 70's swingers thing - a P2, etc ... Greg > I've got a contact who says he can get hold of a million or > so VC if this was an actually business plan, but then you > have to pay them back with interest and stuff. > > Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one. > > Leo
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 04:42:55PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > > have to pay them back with interest and stuff. > equity surely? ;-) Yes. But if you're successful the "interest" rate is huge ;) But if you're not, well, they lose the money and not you. FWIW It's much easier to negotiate with VCs if you're already well established and actually have revenue and commitments and stuff Tony -- - Tony Bowden | Belfast, NI | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.tmtm.com | www.blackstar.co.uk my Uncle Sol had a skunk farm but the skunks caught cold -
Re: Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Leo Lapworth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > People (no particular order): > > == > = Pimp = = Accountant = > == > > == = > = BOFH = = Security Guru = > == = > > === === > = Perl Gurus' = = Perl Trainee Gurus = > === === i'd add an MD/CEO who would initially do a lot of the pimping, the accountant could initially also be outsourced. the BOFH and Security Guru could be rolled into one. i'd also hire non-Perl programmers so that you didn't just have one leg to the stool > Money: > Base salary and split proffit according to which category your in. founders split say 50% of the equity, 25% reserved for latecomers and 25% pencilled for VC types contractors could expect to take a 50 to 75% drop in salary > Open source / clients: > Create projects for open source community (sell to clients > with support). When not assigned to a specific money > making project or client create next project to OS and > make money from. agreed! > Create client base with support contracts. also create partner arrangements, i can think of at least 3 big companies i maybe could arrange partnerships with, that in some cases would double the daily rate for consultancy > Location ;-) > have to pay them back with interest and stuff. equity surely? ;-) -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:21:45AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote: > At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:16:59 +, Greg McCarroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >wrote: > > * David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > > > > > > > there is a big question here, do people want to create a small > > > > business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or > > > > do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to > > > > see it grow > > > > > > Both, of course :-) > > > > yip, but you have to make a choice > > Why? Is there a good reason why the former couldn't gradually over time > metamorphose into the latter? > > Dave... I presume if the vast majority of the money is going directly into people's pockets there won't be much going into things that build the infrastructure of the company - training and so on. Also one way to build a business is to create a "product" and build round that (eg cough spew choke Vignette). Working on this sort of thing may not result in great income in the short term compared to say chucking ten people off to Goldman Sachs. jp
RE:Consultancy company was [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
People (no particular order): == = Pimp = = Accountant = == == = = BOFH = = Security Guru = == = === === = Perl Gurus' = = Perl Trainee Gurus = === === Out source to other similar companies for: - design - mass HTMLing Money: Base salary and split proffit according to which category your in. Open source / clients: Create projects for open source community (sell to clients with support). When not assigned to a specific money making project or client create next project to OS and make money from. Create client base with support contracts. Long term@ pimp out to only the best companies. Location A big pub in central London. Top floors: development Ground floor Pub: with comedy stand and terminal points for laptops Basement: disco / conference room, big flat screens etc.. I've got a contact who says he can get hold of a million or so VC if this was an actually business plan, but then you have to pay them back with interest and stuff. Ok, it's all a pipedream.. but what a nice one. Leo
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
dcross - David Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > From: Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: 18 January 2001 11:42 > > > > What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get > > > anyway? > > > > Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the > > programmer. And the task. > > Sounds a tad low to me. I said "from..." -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:16:59 +, Greg McCarroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >wrote: > > * David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > > > > > > > there is a big question here, do people want to create a small > > > > business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or > > > > do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to > > > > see it grow > > > > > > Both, of course :-) > > > > yip, but you have to make a choice > > Why? Is there a good reason why the former couldn't gradually over time > metamorphose into the latter? > an initial wage structure/share division for the former may not be appropriate for the latter, this of course could be changed but you may run into disagreements at the stage of this change -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
- Original Message - From: "Michael Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 18 January 2001 14:29 Subject: Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 01:55:08PM -, dcross - David Cross wrote: > Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less > than £50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about £500/day. I'd have thought that > if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's > "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that. When I was working in cardiff the company I was working for would charge clients 500ukp/day for technical development. And this was cardiff. --- These numbers sound a lot more reasonable than what I thought was the going rate. I've stuck with SAP mostly because of the cash (it's not unreasonable to ask for 100gbp/hour for SAP - yes I know, I'm not worth it, but my company get most of it anyway). But if I could get the same for doing interesting work instead...it is interesting, and fun, isn't it? Or do you get cynical and bored like with any other job. /Robert
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
At Thu, 18 Jan 2001 15:16:59 +, Greg McCarroll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > * David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > > > > > there is a big question here, do people want to create a small > > > business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or > > > do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to > > > see it grow > > > > Both, of course :-) > > yip, but you have to make a choice Why? Is there a good reason why the former couldn't gradually over time metamorphose into the latter? Dave...
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > > > there is a big question here, do people want to create a small business > > with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or do people want > > to create a proper consulting business aiming to see it grow > > Both, of course :-) > yip, but you have to make a choice -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:56:43PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: > there is a big question here, do people want to create a small business > with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or do people want > to create a proper consulting business aiming to see it grow Both, of course :-) -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* Aaron Trevena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > Also many hackers have more business sense than their MDs - look at > success of projects started by hackers or engineers versus that of those > started by MBAs or middle managers.. > business sense != project sucess there is a big question here, do people want to create a small business with a few perl programmers all on largish salaries or do people want to create a proper consulting business aiming to see it grow -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Marcel Grunauer wrote: > > Michael Stevens writes: > > >When I was working in cardiff the company I was working for would charge > >clients 500ukp/day for technical development. And this was cardiff. > > Ok, but that's for a company, with administrative overhead etc. For a > single consultant/programmer/system analyst/whatever, IMO GBP 500/day is > quite good; I never got above 50/hr with an agent and 60/hr without an > agent (but jobs are easier to come by if you have a pimp). If solicitors can have an office just for a few partners it can't be that hard to do it as consultants. Also many hackers have more business sense than their MDs - look at success of projects started by hackers or engineers versus that of those started by MBAs or middle managers.. A. -- http://termisoc.org/~betty"> Betty @ termisoc.org "As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 02:29:20PM +, Michael Stevens wrote: > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 01:55:08PM -, dcross - David Cross wrote: > > Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less > > than £50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about £500/day. I'd have thought that > > if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's > > "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that. > > When I was working in cardiff the company I was working for would charge > clients 500ukp/day for technical development. And this was cardiff. There's a difference between what the conslutant gets and what the client pays! -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* dcross - David Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > From: Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: 18 January 2001 11:42 > > > > What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get > > > anyway? > > > > Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the > > programmer. And the task. > > Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less > than £50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about £500/day. I'd have thought that > if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's > "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that. > yes, but if it was a proper consultancy youd be expected to write off some of that occasionally and also maybe have some centralised support of the course the real cash comes from ongoing support contracts -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 01:55:08PM -, dcross - David Cross wrote: > Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less > than £50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about £500/day. I'd have thought that > if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's > "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that. When I was working in cardiff the company I was working for would charge clients 500ukp/day for technical development. And this was cardiff. Michael
RE: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
From: Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 18 January 2001 11:42 > > What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get > > anyway? > > Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the > programmer. And the task. Sounds a tad low to me. I've never contracted as a Perl programmer for less than £50/hr. Normally I'd estimate at about £500/day. I'd have thought that if we were selling ourselves as top-notch Perl consultants (Dave H's "getting it right" idea), then it would be more like double that. Dave... -- The information contained in this communication is confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please re-send this communication to the sender and delete the original message or any copy of it from your computer system.
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
"Robert Shiels" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > - Original Message - > From: "David Cantrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: 18 January 2001 11:25 > Subject: Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered > > > > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:31:02AM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: > > > > > David Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > Actually I was thinking more along the lines of me being too damned lazy > > to whore myself around, to do the accounty boring stuff, and even to send > > invoices out on time. All that's fine when I'm just donig a bit of > > consluting on the side, of course. > > > > Yes, but that's where the economies of scale come in. Half a dozen > consultants ought to be able to afford the services of an accounts clerk, > and maybe their own business manager who can do the pimp^h^h^h^hsearching > around for work for you. Gunther had a lot of experience with this at extropia and I have some mail somorewhere I'm sure he'd be happy to share (but obviously I'll ask him). However, they were developing an application rather than bodyshopping^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H consulting. If you/we got the likes of Andy *hint* on board then I'd go in at the high end with "getting it right" type of stuff. There are also enough products out there that have perl behind them that there's plenty of scope for installation/customising. >What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get > anyway? Anything from 30 upwards to the sky depending on the client. And the programmer. And the task. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
- Original Message - From: "David Cantrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 18 January 2001 11:25 Subject: Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:31:02AM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: > > > David Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Actually I was thinking more along the lines of me being too damned lazy > to whore myself around, to do the accounty boring stuff, and even to send > invoices out on time. All that's fine when I'm just donig a bit of > consluting on the side, of course. > Yes, but that's where the economies of scale come in. Half a dozen consultants ought to be able to afford the services of an accounts clerk, and maybe their own business manager who can do the pimp^h^h^h^hsearching around for work for you. I'm not available (or good enough) to work full time as a perl programmer, but my current company works very much along these lines for SAP. The only difference is that one person is the owner of the company. SAP chargeout rates are pretty high though, which probably affects the economics of the thing. What sort of hourly/daily rate does an average PM perl programmer get anyway? /Robert
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
* John ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > Hmmm, does sound good though. > it all depends what you mean, do you mean a proper consultancy or a bunch of people getting together to share accounting/marketting? if its a proper consultancy, you'd have to wear suits, be polite and be in work for 9 in the morning if you were a contractor joining it you could expect a 50%+ pay cut instead of recruiters taking a skim, the running of the company including advertising, management etc. would all eat some of the cash also you'd need to focus it by problem areas not by language having said all of this, if its a later its a good idea -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
David Cantrell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 06:09:32AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote: > > At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market > > > right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. > > > > Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it? > > Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat] Hmmm, does sound good though. John -- :wq
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
>Roger Burton West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> On or about Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:37:27AM +, Steve Mynott typed: >> >> >RH/Slackware/Debian/Solaris/FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD are all fine >> >systems but they need to be setup by someone who knows what they are >> >doing in the same way that Perl has to be written by clueful >> >programmers. >> >> And competent *ix system builders/admins are about as easy to find as >> clueful programmers. And certifications are about as useful in finding >> them. > >Talking of which, having interviewed/seen/lunched a fair number of >perlmongers recently and then offered a bunch of Java weenies, I still >need a BOFH. Not just someone who can "do", but who has vision to >drive things forward. Like me, only more anally retentive and will do >the second 90% of any job :-) > >Anyone know one? > Well kinda :-) >The money's only OK, but the toys are great :-) > I need to see thing how things pan out here and on a couple of other fronts first. Toys are always a good incentive. >And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market >right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. > Quite happy to consider that, doing the sysadminy / strategy / project management type stuff can't code perl for toffee I'm afraid. Neil. -- Neil C. Ford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.binky.ourshack.org
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Dave Cross wrote: > At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market > > right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. > > Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it? I would join but I appear to be jinxed at the moment. so it would be unfair on the rest ;) A. -- http://termisoc.org/~betty"> Betty @ termisoc.org "As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
At 18 Jan 2001 10:31:02 +, Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > David Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat] > > you're (we're ;-) (almost) all alcoholics with personality disorders? Depending on who we're targetting as clients, image _may_ be an issue here :) > Why keep giving the money to the pimps^H^H^H^H^H agencies? Because agents are fine and useful members of society and we feel duty-bound to help support their cocaine habits? Dave...
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:31:02AM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: > David Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat] > > you're (we're ;-) (almost) all alcoholics with personality disorders? Actually I was thinking more along the lines of me being too damned lazy to whore myself around, to do the accounty boring stuff, and even to send invoices out on time. All that's fine when I'm just donig a bit of consluting on the side, of course. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
David Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat] you're (we're ;-) (almost) all alcoholics with personality disorders? Why keep giving the money to the pimps^H^H^H^H^H agencies? -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 06:09:32AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote: > At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market > > right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. > > Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it? Yes, but [caveat] [caveat] [caveat] -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Re: [Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
At 18 Jan 2001 10:09:04 +, Dave Hodgkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market > right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. Sounds good to me. Anyone else up for it? Dave...
[Job] BOFH wanted was: Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Roger Burton West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On or about Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:37:27AM +, Steve Mynott typed: > > >RH/Slackware/Debian/Solaris/FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD are all fine > >systems but they need to be setup by someone who knows what they are > >doing in the same way that Perl has to be written by clueful > >programmers. > > And competent *ix system builders/admins are about as easy to find as > clueful programmers. And certifications are about as useful in finding > them. Talking of which, having interviewed/seen/lunched a fair number of perlmongers recently and then offered a bunch of Java weenies, I still need a BOFH. Not just someone who can "do", but who has vision to drive things forward. Like me, only more anally retentive and will do the second 90% of any job :-) Anyone know one? The money's only OK, but the toys are great :-) And on the same lines...what with all these perlmongers on the market right now, just bloody band together and start a consultancy. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Apache, mod_perl, MySQL, Sybase hired gun for, well, hire -
Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 09:56:07AM +0100, Philip Newton wrote: > Robin Szemeti wrote: > > as a matter of interest what is your fave Linux or *nix install then?? > >From what I've been reading on this list, Debian seems to be argued for > quite a lot, as is FreeBSD (? I think -- one of the BSDs, anyway). I like Debian for general use, and OpenBSD for servers where there's a particular security concern... Michael
Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On or about Thu, Jan 18, 2001 at 10:37:27AM +, Steve Mynott typed: >RH/Slackware/Debian/Solaris/FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD are all fine >systems but they need to be setup by someone who knows what they are >doing in the same way that Perl has to be written by clueful >programmers. And competent *ix system builders/admins are about as easy to find as clueful programmers. And certifications are about as useful in finding them. R
Re: Red Hat worm discovered
"Paul Makepeace" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > From: "Robin Houston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Aww c'mon! RedHat was obviously targeted because it's the most > > widely used! None of the vulnerable software was written by RH > > (and all of it was also included in other distros). > > That's true -- but how easy is RH to upgrade/patch? And why is RH7 shipping > with all these services turned on? (NFS? rpc.*? Hello?) Perhaps *that's* why > it's a steaming pile of crap getting hacked the whole time. RH is incredibly easy to upgrade with RPM one liners. There is a single web page of current security issues if people bothered to read it they wouldn't get hacked. RH7 ships with so many services turned on because Redhat marketing think offering more services by default is popular with customers. Longer feature list equal better in this world. Don't blame the distribution (they are all equivalent anyway) blame the lack of decent sysadmins. RH/Slackware/Debian/Solaris/FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD are all fine systems but they need to be setup by someone who knows what they are doing in the same way that Perl has to be written by clueful programmers. -- 1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] hey, if you can't remember when you booted it, it ain't windoze.
Re: Red Hat worm discovered
Robin Szemeti wrote: > as a matter of interest what is your fave Linux or *nix install then?? >From what I've been reading on this list, Debian seems to be argued for quite a lot, as is FreeBSD (? I think -- one of the BSDs, anyway). Cheers, Philip
Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, you wrote: > From: "Robin Houston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Aww c'mon! RedHat was obviously targeted because it's the most > > widely used! None of the vulnerable software was written by RH > > (and all of it was also included in other distros). > > That's true -- but how easy is RH to upgrade/patch? And why is RH7 shipping > with all these services turned on? (NFS? rpc.*? Hello?) Perhaps *that's* why > it's a steaming pile of crap getting hacked the whole time. umm just because the default configuration is not optimal does not IMHO make the whole thing a steaming pile of crap ... sure having rpc turned on is a bit dumb if you have no need of it and its as holey as my socks, but these things are easy to fix and anyone setting up a server should have enough clue to turn em off ... anyone running wu-ftpd on a permanently connected machine is asking for trouble. in the end you need a decent ipchains set up as well .. and dump ftp and telnet who needs em? .. firewall off everything apart from smtp,dns,https(s) and ssh and you're about there, establish a few routes to a few trusted hosts and that about does it. at least a quick tweak with a rpm or two can make it into a decent install, where as many other OS's are plain incurable. All seem to have a weakness from Solaris to Plan9 .. redhat just got rooted because it was popular .. as a matter of interest what is your fave Linux or *nix install then?? -- Robin Szemeti The box said "requires windows 95 or better" So I installed Linux!
Re: Red Hat worm discovered
From: "Robin Houston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Aww c'mon! RedHat was obviously targeted because it's the most > widely used! None of the vulnerable software was written by RH > (and all of it was also included in other distros). That's true -- but how easy is RH to upgrade/patch? And why is RH7 shipping with all these services turned on? (NFS? rpc.*? Hello?) Perhaps *that's* why it's a steaming pile of crap getting hacked the whole time. Paul
Re: Red Hat worm discovered
On Wed, Jan 17, 2001 at 12:59:56PM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote: > Just to reinforce the point that this OS is a steaming pile of crap Aww c'mon! RedHat was obviously targeted because it's the most widely used! None of the vulnerable software was written by RH (and all of it was also included in other distros). .robin.
Red Hat worm discovered
Just to reinforce the point that this OS is a steaming pile of crap, and that if you're in the unfortunate situation of actually running it, watch out (130,000 nodes scanned in 15mins): http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-202-4508359-0.html Internet worm squirms into Linux servers By Robert Lemos Special to CNET News.com January 17, 2001, 9:25 a.m. PT URL: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-201-4508359-0.html An Internet worm cobbled together from generally available hacking tools has compromised hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Linux servers by using two well-known security flaws in applications set up during the default installation of Red Hat Linux software. Known as the Ramen worm, the self-spreading program appears to have been created by common Internet vandals--called script kiddies. As of Wednesday morning, the worm was continuing to spread. "This is not a very dangerous worm," said Lance Spitzner, coordinator for the Honeynet Project, a group of well-known security experts who study how hackers attack servers. "It has a very big signature; it is easy to find; and it doesn't really do anything destructive." The worm spreads by scanning the Internet for servers based on Red Hat 6.2 or 7.0 and then attempts to gain access using two common exploits. When it does gain access, it installs a so-called root kit, which patches the security holes and installs special programs that replace common system functions. Ramen also replaces the main page on Web servers with an HTML file claiming: "RameN Crew--Hackers love noodles." Finally, the new worm sends an e-mail message to two Web-based accounts, boots up and starts scanning the Internet again. Spitzner and other security experts on the Bugtraq mailing list detected the worm earlier this week when they noticed an increase in scans for the RPC.statd and wu-FTP vulnerabilities that plague the default installations of most Linux servers. The worm, however, limits its spread to servers based on Red Hat 6.2 and 7.0. RPC.statd is one of several services that a Linux server can run to offer remote access using a common suite of programs known as remote procedure calls. Washington University's version of the common file server, known as wu-FTP, has a flaw that also allows access. Patches for both flaws are readily available. Mihai Moldovanu, a Romanian programmer who reverse-engineered much of the worm on Tuesday, said that Ramen is spreading very rapidly. "Once the worm starts scanning, it will consume a large amount of your Internet bandwidth," Moldovanu said. "The scanning is very fast." According to Moldovanu, the worm scanned two B-class networks--about 130,000 Internet addresses--in less than 15 minutes. "The worm itself seems dangerous due to bandwidth consumption and due to the (unproven) possibility of remote-accessing the compromised box by the worm author," he added. Because of its ability to spread without any human intervention and because it targets servers based on Linux--a cousin of Unix--the Ramen worm resembles the Morris Worm that used a common e-mail service to spread through the Internet--then called the Arpanet--in early November 1988. The Morris worm, named after its creator, the Cornell University graduate student Robert Morris, overloaded the Internet with e-mail as it attempted to spread among Unix servers. The Computer Emergency Response Team at Carnegie-Mellon--created in the aftermath of the Morris Worm--is currently studying the Ramen worm, spokesman Bill Pollock said Wednesday. ___ -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thus spake the Master Programmer: "Let the programmers be many and the managers few -- then all will be productive." (http://misspiggy.gsfc.nasa.gov/tao.html)
