As alreadysaid (see earlier), it's probably more to do with the move to
plucking closer to the bridge than reaching the low basses.
MH
Bruno Correia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Anthony,
I see the reason of T.O not only in terms of stretch, but in relation to the
role of the bass in the
This is the first expanation I've read of a possible motivation for
Dowland switching. Good work.
On Jan 10, 2008, at 7:53 PM, Anthony Hind wrote:
This could be the strong motivation that could move a recognized
player such as Dowland to change technique, from TI to TO. It
surely would
Thanks Anthony for the articles. The question seems to be deeper than I
thought...
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
.
Museums, of course, tend to just like records of the state of the
instrument, not what it should be like if restored.
www.rmguitar.info
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 09 January 2008 21:51
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH
like records of the state of the
instrument, not what it should be like if restored.
www.rmguitar.info
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 09 January 2008 21:51
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge [baroque Method]
Thanks Rob
and from where? Do we know the answer to
that question?
- Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:52 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Playing the devil's advocate here, I've always found it hard
Baron is a late source (1727), heavily influenced by ideas of
italianized musi making. I'd lay Baron aside, at least as far as far
French baroque is concerned.
Mathias
Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
And if I might add further to the Collective Confusion we have the
words of Ernst
Anthony,
I see the reason of T.O not only in terms of stretch, but in relation to the
role of the bass in the music of the 17th and 18th century, where the bass
is much more active and perhaps also needs a heavier sound. The Thumb index
alternation is no longer used because the thumb has to play
Le 10 janv. 08 à 15:03, Bruno Correia a écrit :
Anthony,
I see the reason of T.O not only in terms of stretch, but in
relation to the
role of the bass in the music of the 17th and 18th century, where
the bass
is much more active and perhaps also needs a heavier sound. The
Thumb index
Oups, sorry, I have over simplified, explor(ing) the rich
sonorities of the low basses , is not quite the same thing as
treble bass polarity, and of course there is much lute music before
the German Baroque, that does play on treble bass polarity.
However, both exploring the low basses
Sorry Bruno, somehow I forgot to put the reference to the article,
therefore you couldn't see that it is clearly putting the same point
of view, as you are doing.
http://tinyurl.com/yo8gb7
Anthony
Le 10 janv. 08 =E0 15:03, Bruno Correia a ecrit :
Anthony,
I see the reason of T.O not only
- all this might sound different in a
year or so.
Rob
www.rmguitar.info
-Original Message-
From: Bruno Correia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 07 January 2008 19:29
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge
Rob,
Good job with the chaconne! Hearing your playing I really can't
Dear Martyn,
I'm told the splitting horn wasn't invented until the 18th C.
In earlier times, strings were identified by how many guts they were
made from, not their diameter (they didn't have micrometers), so a
bundle of strings made from, say four guts, would vary somewhat in
diameter, and
Dear Anthony,
The Buchenberg lute may not be quite as it seems. It appears to be
intact, but I have seen photographs (taken, if I remember correctly, by
Martin Bowers) which show the body broken off at the block. The repair
was probably done by one of these devilishly clever violin
: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge
Rob,
Good job with the chaconne! Hearing your playing I really can't
find any
trace of harshness, it's really a surprise from someone playing so
close to
the bridge. But I think the bass is overpowering the trebles, the
lute is
sounding almost
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge
Dear Anthony,
The Buchenberg lute may not be quite as it seems. It appears to be
intact, but I have seen photographs (taken, if I remember
correctly, by
Martin Bowers) which show the body broken off at the block. The
repair
was probably done by one
Two other possibilities; either the player- whatever the total number
of digits on his right hand- did not rest his little finger at all
(anomalous but perfectly possible) or he/she maintained uncommonly
clean hands and only lightly touched down intermittently with the
little finger. Even with
Thanks for trying, Rob. It shows how careful you have to be even when
reading information on a museum site.
I thought that would be completely trustworthy.
Actually, it is surprising that there are often very strong little
finger marks on historic lutes. Modern players, do their best to
: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 09 January 2008 18:12
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge [baroque Method]
Thanks for trying, Rob. It shows how careful you have to be even when
reading information on a museum site.
I thought that would be completely
Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 09 January 2008 18:12
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge [baroque Method]
Thanks for trying, Rob. It shows how careful you have to be even when
reading information on a museum site.
I thought that would
And if I might add further to the Collective Confusion we have the
words of Ernst Gottlieb Baron:
As to the question of where to strike the strings of the lute so
that the tone will be powerful enough, it will serve to know that
this must be in the center of the space between the rose and the
On Jan 9, 2008, at 3:25 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote:
And if I might add further to the Collective Confusion we have the
words of Ernst Gottlieb Baron:
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
And if I might add further to the Collective Confusion we have the
words of Ernst Gottlieb Baron:
As to the question of where to strike the strings of the lute so
that the tone will be powerful enough, it will serve to know that
this must be in the center of the space between the rose and
add that I have never played thumb-in, as I find it impossible.
Rob
www.rmguitar.info
-Original Message-
From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 07 January 2008 13:52
To: Martin Eastwell; Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge
Perhaps this below has this been covered
What iconography shows is a wide variety of hand positions; to consider that
these break into
two parts is like the old joke, there are two kinds of people in the world:
Those who divide the world into two kinds of people, and those who don't.
There are three kinds of mathematicians:
those who
The advanced variant is:
There are 10 kinds of people
those who understand binary and those who don't
g (physicist)
Zitat von Spring, aus dem, Rainer [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
There are three kinds of mathematicians:
those who can count and those who can't.
To get on or off this list see list
The apparent limitations of two-dimensional media were neatly
finessed back in the 14th century by artists who made an interesting
little discovery that we like to call perspective; by means of
carefully chosen amounts placement of light and shade,
foreshortening, selective focus, etc. they
Dear Martin,
Toyohiko does not do this just so he can have a hand position that appears
like the paintings. Toyohiko is very scholarly, and he has done extensive
research on the topic, and he took a half year to re-learn his technique,
when he changed to low-tension baroque lutes in _plain
Hello Rob- I think it sounds great. In fact, the first recording-
even though you were obviously less technically comfortable, seems a
touch clearer. I play my Baroque lutes and (when I owned one) my 10
course thumb out exclusively, but not as far down to the bridge. That
may change with the
Ah yes- illusory VERBAL descriptions. Grasshopper, point finger at
moon- but keep eye on ball...
No apologies needed- we still sell plastic records at Amoeba Music. I
may even have one of Schaeffer playing Bittner stashed away somewhere
if I'm not mistaken. Dan
The contradiction is in the
The contradiction is in the illusory verbal description of in out
under over c. The iconographic and plastic records (had to use the
word plastic, sorry) show that it is not a two dimensional issue.
It's like a finger pointing at the moon
dt
At 09:31 AM 1/8/2008, you wrote:
The apparent
was
a new one, completely strung in gut - all this might sound different in a
year or so.
Rob
www.rmguitar.info
-Original Message-
From: Bruno Correia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 07 January 2008 19:29
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge
Rob,
Good job with the chaconne
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge
Rob,
Good job with the chaconne! Hearing your playing I really can't
find any
trace of harshness, it's really a surprise from someone playing so
close to
the bridge. But I think the bass is overpowering the trebles, the
lute is
sounding almost
Dowland created the change in
technique? If not him who and from where? Do we know the answer to
that question?
- Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:52 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge
: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Playing the devil's advocate here, I've always found it hard to
believe the best lute player in the world (some must have thought
so), Dowland, would change his technique suddenly. Maybe the sources
got it wrong or were purposefully misleading? What would be his
To: Martin Eastwell; Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge
Perhaps this below has this been covered already?:
Clearly as you say, thumb-under does not, in itself, restrict ability to
pluck a low bass course. However, if the hand is plucking very close to the
bridge (ie little finger
PROTECTED]
Sent: 07 January 2008 13:52
To: Martin Eastwell; Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge
Perhaps this below has this been covered already?:
Clearly as you say, thumb-under does not, in itself, restrict ability to
pluck a low bass course. However, if the hand is plucking very
that this lute was
a new one, completely strung in gut - all this might sound different in a
year or so.
Rob
www.rmguitar.info
-Original Message-
From: Bruno Correia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 07 January 2008 19:29
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge
Rob,
Good job
Dear Bruno et al,
Toyohiko does not do this just so he can have a hand position that appears
like the paintings. Toyohiko is very scholarly, and he has done extensive
research on the topic, and he took a half year to re-learn his technique,
when he changed to low-tension baroque lutes in
Message-
From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 07 January 2008 13:52
To: Martin Eastwell; Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge
Perhaps this below has this been covered already?:
Clearly as you say, thumb-under does not, in itself, restrict ability to
pluck a low bass course
Chris Wilkie wrote...
Now, let's be positive: Ron(Andrico)- do you have any ideas
about getting young folks involved?
I think Betsy Small had the right idea, introducing children at a young age
to the lute. Those impressions can last a long time.
BTW Her website http://www.storyminstrels.com
?
- Original Message - From: Ed Durbrow
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:52 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Playing the devil's advocate here, I've always found it hard to
believe the best lute player
Playing the devil's advocate here, I've always found it hard to
believe the best lute player in the world (some must have thought
so), Dowland, would change his technique suddenly. Maybe the sources
got it wrong or were purposefully misleading? What would be his
motivation to change?
Just
05, 2008 9:52 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Playing the devil's advocate here, I've always found it hard to
believe the best lute player in the world (some must have thought
so), Dowland, would change his technique suddenly. Maybe the sources
got it wrong or were purposefully
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Playing the devil's advocate here, I've always found it hard to
believe the best lute player in the world (some must have thought
so), Dowland, would change his technique suddenly. Maybe the sources
got it wrong or were purposefully misleading? What would be his
can we get more young people
interested in playing the lute?'
Best wishes,
Ron Andrico
http://www.mignarda.com
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 23:52:32 +0900 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL
PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge? Playing the devil's
advocate here, I've always
safely put it to
rest. Maybe we should be asking ourselves, 'How can we get more young
people interested in playing the lute?'
Best wishes,
Ron Andrico
http://www.mignarda.com
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 23:52:32 +0900 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH
. You
are not going to be able to reach those bases with the thumb in. The
critical issue as I see it is the position of the wrist.
- Original Message -
From: Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 2:03 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH
On Sat, Jan 5, 2008, vance wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
I know that this must be a bit off topic but beside the issue of accessing
the additional bases as a criteria for thumb out one has to ask why was
thumb in used in the first place, especially when you consider how the thumb
and second
position than
with that assumed by many Guitarists, coming at the Lute for the first time.
I know, I have been there.
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 4:26 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
On Sat, Jan 5
century.
Now, let's be positive: Ron - do you have any ideas
about getting young folks involved?
Chris
Best wishes,
Ron Andrico
http://www.mignarda.com
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 23:52:32 +0900 To:
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on
the bridge
that for an (idealistic and familiar to some) idea?
Best wishes,
Ron Andrico
http://www.mignarda.com
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 14:20:49 -0800 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL
PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE]
Re: RH on the bridge? Ron, --- Ron Andrico
Robert
I looked at the photos again, and noticed another variation apart
from the one you mentionned which was as follows:
Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1 and 3 are
relatively close):
1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683'
: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Robert
I looked at the photos again, and noticed another variation apart
from the one you mentionned which was as follows:
Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1 and 3 are
relatively close):
1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R
thought I'd see that again!
Rob
www.rmguitar.info
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 17 December 2007 12:40
To: T. Diehl-Peshkur; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Theo and Rob
A thought
- Original Message -
From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 9:07 AM
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Oups, sorry Rob,
snip
There are a few music museums where the instruments are kept in
good
playing
Please be careful, Anthony. The photo of me grinning like an idiot does not
show me playing a la Mouton. I have now adopted, more or less, Mouton's
technique which is closer to the bridge than I am using in that photo. I say
more or less, because, of course, the position is not fixed, is quite
Le 16 déc. 07 à 21:24, Rob a écrit :
Please be careful, Anthony. The photo of me grinning like an idiot
does not
show me playing a la Mouton. I have now adopted, more or less,
Mouton's
technique which is closer to the bridge than I am using in that
photo. I say
more or less, because, of
PROTECTED]; Martin Shepherd
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
On Dec 15, 2007, at 10:19 AM, Martin Eastwell wrote:
I
make a point of talking about historical RH techniques at some
point, and
have
On Dec 16, 2007, at 9:07 AM, vance wood wrote:
Dowland suggests playing sweetly in Varietie. I think the sound
must be clean with no buzzing or rattling and even, between base
and treble. If you get that it does not matter how you got there.
Regardless of what Guru you invest your
It is not just the strings; the lute must be really able to amplify
the sound properly.
The strings should be gut, but I would not use ones that are too low
in tension.
You can experiment tuning the lute down a whole step. As you tune the
lute down, you will reach a point where you can play
I have to say it's flattering to think that playing thumb-out makes
me exceptional, or cutting-edge, or both. It's pretty much the only
way I've played in my 25 years as a lute player, and in all the
seminars and whatnots I attended in the 1980's and 90's (in which I
played in master
On Sun, Dec 16, 2007, David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
the gurus of the day actively taught the new
technique. The gurus of our day, unless I'm very much mistaken in
which case you all can shoot me down in flames, do not.
Todays lute teachers have a broader clientel and thus must
Dear all,
There are new photos of unrestored lutes on Mimmo Peruffo's site at
http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm
MP says On a modern lute completely strung with gut at 3.0 Kg
tension per string (1-3 courses + octaves plain gut; 4-5 courses
Venices; 6-11 basses loaded gut strings) the
On Dec 16, 2007, at 12:39 PM, David Rastall wrote:
Well, all right ;-) You have correctly discerned what I don't
mean. Or don't mean to deny...(huh?) Thereby narrowing the focus
down to what I do mean: that very close to the time of 1607, i.e.
400 years ago, there was a technical
On Dec 16, 2007, at 3:51 PM, howard posner wrote:
My point is only that saying there was a change doesn't necessarily
tell you how John Wilson or Constantijn Huygens or Charles Hurel
played, or what the normal method of playing in Bruges in 1673 was,
or any number of specific things that you
posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 4:28 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
On Dec 16, 2007, at 3:51 PM, howard posner wrote:
My point is only that saying there was a change doesn't necessarily
tell you how John Wilson or Constantijn
On Dec 16, 2007, at 4:01 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote:
Dear Howard,
One of the most interesting sources which tell us how some people
played the lute, is the Stobaeus Manuscript in the British Library.
Apart from the music and lots of pretty pictures, there is an
introduction about
Sorry -- hit the send button prematurely. Here's a more intelligible
version:
On Dec 16, 2007, at 4:01 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote:
Dear Howard,
One of the most interesting sources which tell us how some people
played the lute, is the Stobaeus Manuscript in the British Library.
Apart from
I don't see a dichotomy in the hand position;
for sure there was a Thumb Middle position, a bridge position and a
rose position.
And there are at least two different bridge positions. Each
hand/thumb combo produces dramatically different sounds.
So to say that there were changes in technique
Well, I've already modified my position by advancing towards the rose but
only a centimeter or so, pretty much exactly as in the Mouton print
http://www.rmguitar.info/French.htm . I've never played thumb-in, ever, and
find it impossible. Playing close to the bridge, from my experience, works
much
As someone who plays both thumb in and out, I'm surprised at the suggestion
that thumb out is harder. In my experience, the fact that the right hand is
static in thumb out playing makes the business of integrating chords with
single lines very much easier, especially when I'm playing the nice 8
Dear Martin,
Your belief that thumb out is not used today ('discarded'), if I understand
you right, is surprising since it seems directly contrary to the latest
informed views. It is certainly true that in the very first big bang of lute
playing in the 20thC (the 1960/70s), thumb out was
On Dec 15, 2007, at 4:44 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote:
Rob MacKillop has just recorded a piece with the little finger on
the bridge...
Has anyone else tried this?
If iconography is anything to go by, I would say quite a few. The
little finger on the bridge is a little extreme, but it looks
Dear Martyn
You are quite right that more serious players in recent years have begun to
experiment with the thumb-out technique, but I am afraid that it will take a
long time to percolate into the wider lute playing world. In the last
decade, I've seen very few performances using this technique,
On Dec 15, 2007, at 10:19 AM, Martin Eastwell wrote:
I
make a point of talking about historical RH techniques at some
point, and
have quite often encountered surprise and even hostility from students
because what I was suggesting flew in the face of the teachings or
performing practice of
by John Dowland, A Varietie of lute
lessons,
London, 1610.
Best wishes,
Denys
-Original Message-
From: David Rastall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 15 December 2007 15:51
To: Martin Eastwell
Cc: Martyn Hodgson; Martin Shepherd; Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
On Dec
Three cheers! Thanks Denys.
Rob
www.rmguitar.info
-Original Message-
From: Denys Stephens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 15 December 2007 18:01
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
Dear All,
A word of advice from one of the 'old ones:'
'Neither would
On Saturday, December 15, 2007 3:19 PM Martin Eastwell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
... but I am afraid that it will take a
long time to percolate into the wider lute playing world.
It will take perhaps even longer to percolate into the not so wide
Dear Martyn
You are quite right that more serious players in recent years have begun to
experiment with the thumb-out technique, but I am afraid that it will take a
long time to percolate into the wider lute playing world. In the last
decade, I've seen very few performances using this technique,
-
From: David Rastall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 15 December 2007 15:51
To: Martin Eastwell
Cc: Martyn Hodgson; Martin Shepherd; Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
On Dec 15, 2007, at 10:19 AM, Martin Eastwell wrote:
I
make a point of talking about historical RH
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