[LUTE] bass strings
I do hope Mimmo Peruffo will be ready to sell the new strings in June To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
-- Forwarded message -- From: Sam Chapman [1]manchap...@gmail.com Date: 2 December 2012 00:38 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: Markus Lutz [2]mar...@gmlutz.de About string holes: I generally use Stoppani plain gut basses at high tension (c. 3.5kg) on all my lutes - sometimes I cut the string down to size to get it through the hole. Even reducing the width of the string by half puts it in no danger of breaking when tuned up to whatever bass note it should be at. The cut portion of the string passes through the hole and in no way affects the vibrating length of the string. I'm very happy with the sound and don't find it any duller than that the loaded strings I've tried. All the best, Sam On 30 November 2012 12:12, Markus Lutz [3]mar...@gmlutz.de wrote: Am 29.11.2012 16:10, schrieb R. Mattes: On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:04:48 +0100, Markus Lutz wrote Hi Shaun, Hi Martyn, unfortunately I cannot say too much on this topic, at least for the 17th century. [...] Another important source, though late, on all topics of life is Kruenitz, Oeconomische Encyclopaedie. Probably it also depends on the encyclopedy of Diderot and on other encyclopedys, for sure at least some things will have been copied. It has 242 volumes and describes many things very detailed. He has big articles on the lute and on strings Kruenitz, Artikel Laute (lute, vol. 66, p. 380ff, 1795) But this is rather late as a source for information on 17th century lute practice (or even for the first half of the 18th century). There have been two changes in lute building during that time: first, the extension of the bass range by adding a second pegbox (swank neck lutes) and then the change to bass rider style lutes during the 18th century (the later could well be a in response to a wider availability of overspun bass strings). Yes, this is pretty late - as I said, an I never claimed anything on the use of overspun strings in the 17th century. And I don't know, when they were used first, but I would guess at least in the end of the 17th and beginning of the 18th century. But anyway these encyclopedies reflect the things that had been there for many years. If you look at the article on lutes you will see that it consist of different sources, some still have the renaissance tuning/stringing in mind and others that describe the baroque lute. In this article Baron is cited quite extensive, and also they used the articles of Luise Gottsched in Gottscheds Handlexicon oder Kurzgefasstes Woerterbuch der schoenen Wissenschaften und freyen Kuenste We cannot at all compare an encyclopedy of that time with our time (or wikipedia). Changes then had been much slower and they are more a summing up and mixing old and new things. But this article says nothing on the first use of overspun strings. BTW: The development of the extended bass range indeed is vice versa at least in Germany. First there had been lutes with bass riders (ca. 1719), afterwards the 13-course lutes had been theorbified (around 1730). Although there had been other theorbified lutes up to the late 17th century, the theorbifying of the baroque lute had been ascribed to Silvius Leopold Weiss, who probably first combined this with a 13-course lute. Best regards Markus -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg [4]r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstrasse 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail [6]mar...@gmlutz.de -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:manchap...@gmail.com 2. mailto:mar...@gmlutz.de 3. mailto:mar...@gmlutz.de 4. mailto:r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. mailto:mar...@gmlutz.de
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 12:24:39 +1100, Shaun Ng wrote Well, wouldn't this mean that every time we see a painting of an instrument with strings, we would have to consider one more stringing option, instead of just gut or wound? Yes, as long as we ignore all no-iconographic sources of information about instrument strings - and ther are quite some ... (just read up the posts about strings in this mailing list). It says something quite important, that metal strings on instruments existed. Dohh. Big news ;-) Now, in the light of this, interpretation of later sources concerning wound strings changes. Hundreds of years of different metals, and now we hear about silver on gut from a private correspondence (Goretzky) and an advertisement (Playford), which may have not appeared in Playford's book had an entry not been made; it doesn't appear in later editions of Playford reprinted into the 18th century. It doesn't appear in Mace either, I think. Sounds to me like indifference to new technology, but is it really completely new considering metals have been around for such a long time? Yes, and sand, gold, silver and lead have been known since the times of the pharaos - can we therefore assume that the new testament was written on a tablet computer? Hint: sometimes it takes more than the right ingredients to make a great cake. HTH Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find? Shaun Apart from the fact that the knowledge existed at the time for loading silk and leather in a process generally called dyeing, most of the clues are indirect but have been mentioned here in the previous discussion: the very small lute bass string bridge holes, the tendancy to find systematically coloured bass courses, and particularly the use of very small Baroque lutes, such as that in the Charles Mouton de Troy portrait (indeed with systematically coloured bass strings). Demifilé might have worked for such lute types, but do not seem to have been used at the time for lutes (and the lute bridge holes of the period apparently do not show the tell-tale more oval shape caused by their use). However, this is not conclusive evidence; it is just difficult to find an opposing satisfactory theory. % One very interesting hypothesis, is put forward by Charles Besnainou ex CNRS France, who suggests that twine basses may have had just one half of the twin elements going through the lute bridge hole, and the two strands tied together over the bridge. % He suggests that it would have been the particular lang lay of the twine rope (twisted in the same direction as the strands) which remains unstable, and tends to unravel if the twine is not tied in this way (indeed this seems to be true with his lang-lay spring ropes). However, the best arguments Charles has for the existence of such ropes only concerns very big bass violone strings. I don't think that Charles' own bass strings would work well with a small lute such as that of Charles Mouton. He himself uses a very big 14 course Dutch lute with his own strings. The only painting he could show me of a lute having a knot similar to the one he uses, is of a lute that has an unusual bass string pattern, with relatively thick single rope basses (and no octaves). % Now you ask what further proof would we look for concerning the loaded string hypothesis, and I suppose apart from finding a fossilized loaded string, it might be possible to find traces of chemicals typical to the loading process in some string atelier, or a list of such chemicals. To my knowledge Barbieri's research on Italian string makers in Rome did not find such evidence, but that does not mean that it is not still worth looking in that direction (I am not sure whether he actually looked for such evidence). % Meanwhile for the moment there are no other completely satisfactory hypotheses, even if as Jaroslaw says, other string types may work quite well (Dan's pure Pistoy for example), if we allow them to be thicker than historic lute holes, and many may find them musically satisfactory; although that does not make for a proof of the historical use of such basses on non extended baroque lutes, any more than it would for loaded strings. % I do think it possible that some larger extended lutes may have been developed to to permit the use of pure gut basses, through which the desired thinness of the bass string was achieved, rather than by loading it and making it more dense. However, there are some alternative explanations even for these. Regards Anthony De : Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com À : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc : Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoyé le : Mercredi 28 novembre 2012 20h43 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? Dear Martyn, Thanks for these sources. I don't think they were making it up, but I do find the Playford source questionable, being an advertisement. I know this sounds nitpicky, but all it says is 'silver wire' on string is the new invention. It doesn't say what came before. Kapsberger used a wire strung theorbo, if I remember rightly, and it predates both these sources, so that's at least evidence of non gut string use. But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find? Shaun Ng On 29/11/2012, at 2:02, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes...', what do you mean by 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; better than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what? And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence (eg the numerous paintings) and the historical record (eg wound strings were new in the 1660s: Hartlib papers 1659 Goretsky hath an invention of lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings which make a most admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] String of guts done about with silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretskys invention) and 1664 John
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
Dear Shaun, You ask: 'But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find?' The explanation for thin bass strings on at least some lutes (I presume you're referring to measurements of bidge hole diametrs) is either very low (elastic band) tensions or denser strings. The latter achieved by loading or wire winding - the weight of evidence suggesting that before 1660 (and, in my view, after too - did wound strings ever become common for the Dm lute?) the denser string was achieved by loading. But we've all been here before.. regards Martyn From: Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [LUTE] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 19:43 Dear Martyn, Thanks for these sources. I don't think they were making it up, but I do find the Playford source questionable, being an advertisement. I know this sounds nitpicky, but all it says is 'silver wire' on string is the new invention. It doesn't say what came before. Kapsberger used a wire strung theorbo, if I remember rightly, and it predates both these sources, so that's at least evidence of non gut string use. But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find? Shaun Ng On 29/11/2012, at 2:02, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes...', what do you mean by 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; better than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what? And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence (eg the numerous paintings) and the historical record (eg wound strings were new in the 1660s: Hartlib papers 1659 Goretsky hath an invention of lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings which make a most admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] String of guts done about with silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretskys invention) and 1664 John Playford: An Introduction to the Skill of Musik...: There is a late invention of strings.. it is a small wire twisted or gimp'd upon a gut string or silk Were they making it up as being a new invention? MH --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng [2]shaunk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Shaun Ng [3]shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: [4]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl [5]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Cc: [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45 Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit too late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way to get credible information about musical instruments anyway. Shaun Ng 0426240 775 | [1][8]shaunk...@gmail.com | shaunng.blogspot.com On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, [2][9]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: Dear Anthony, Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said before, the change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems, and then traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write longer messages. I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too long. You touched a couple of related topics in your last email, so I will try to address them separately. ROTTEN GUT Obviously the word rotten can have at least 2 meanings, however I am afraid in this case Mace very clearly writes about decay of gut strings. Just one example: for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the DECAY of the string The word decay reappears several times in the technical part of Music's Monument, always in conjunction with the word rottenness. This can't be coincidental. Now, one can consider why it is so difficult for us to accept that decay process of a gut string could be real. I can see two reasons, namely: 1/ none of us saw a rotting gut 2/ Mace is viewed as a very
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
Dear Martyn, Yes, I am aware of these things. The evidence for loading on strings is? Or has the lute world already made a collective decision not to ask this question anymore? Shaun On 29/11/2012, at 7:30 PM, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, You ask: 'But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find?' The explanation for thin bass strings on at least some lutes (I presume you're referring to measurements of bidge hole diametrs) is either very low (elastic band) tensions or denser strings. The latter achieved by loading or wire winding - the weight of evidence suggesting that before 1660 (and, in my view, after too - did wound strings ever become common for the Dm lute?) the denser string was achieved by loading. But we've all been here before.. regards Martyn From: Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [LUTE] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 19:43 Dear Martyn, Thanks for these sources. I don't think they were making it up, but I do find the Playford source questionable, being an advertisement. I know this sounds nitpicky, but all it says is 'silver wire' on string is the new invention. It doesn't say what came before. Kapsberger used a wire strung theorbo, if I remember rightly, and it predates both these sources, so that's at least evidence of non gut string use. But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find? Shaun Ng On 29/11/2012, at 2:02, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes...', what do you mean by 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; better than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what? And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence (eg the numerous paintings) and the historical record (eg wound strings were new in the 1660s: Hartlib papers 1659 Goretsky hath an invention of lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings which make a most admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] String of guts done about with silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretskys invention) and 1664 John Playford: An Introduction to the Skill of Musik...: There is a late invention of strings.. it is a small wire twisted or gimp'd upon a gut string or silk Were they making it up as being a new invention? MH --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng [2]shaunk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Shaun Ng [3]shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: [4]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl [5]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Cc: [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45 Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit too late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way to get credible information about musical instruments anyway. Shaun Ng 0426240 775 | [1][8]shaunk...@gmail.com | shaunng.blogspot.com On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, [2][9]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: Dear Anthony, Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said before, the change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems, and then traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write longer messages. I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too long. You touched a couple of related topics in your last email, so I will try to address them separately. ROTTEN GUT Obviously the word rotten can have at least 2 meanings, however I am afraid in this case Mace very clearly writes about decay of gut strings. Just one example: for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the DECAY of the string The word decay reappears several times in the technical part of Music's Monument, always in conjunction with the word rottenness. This can't be coincidental. Now, one can consider why it is so difficult for us to accept that decay process of a gut string could be real. I can see two reasons, namely: 1/ none of us saw a rotting gut 2/ Mace
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
Dear Shaun, With respect, I think I've already answered this - see below regards Martyn --- On Thu, 29/11/12, Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 29 November, 2012, 9:34 Dear Martyn, Yes, I am aware of these things. The evidence for loading on strings is? Or has the lute world already made a collective decision not to ask this question anymore? Shaun On 29/11/2012, at 7:30 PM, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, You ask: 'But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find?' The explanation for thin bass strings on at least some lutes (I presume you're referring to measurements of bidge hole diametrs) is either very low (elastic band) tensions or denser strings. The latter achieved by loading or wire winding - the weight of evidence suggesting that before 1660 (and, in my view, after too - did wound strings ever become common for the Dm lute?) the denser string was achieved by loading. But we've all been here before.. regards Martyn From: Shaun Ng [2]shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [LUTE] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute Dmth [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 19:43 Dear Martyn, Thanks for these sources. I don't think they were making it up, but I do find the Playford source questionable, being an advertisement. I know this sounds nitpicky, but all it says is 'silver wire' on string is the new invention. It doesn't say what came before. Kapsberger used a wire strung theorbo, if I remember rightly, and it predates both these sources, so that's at least evidence of non gut string use. But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find? Shaun Ng On 29/11/2012, at 2:02, Martyn Hodgson [1][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes...', what do you mean by 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; better than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what? And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence (eg the numerous paintings) and the historical record (eg wound strings were new in the 1660s: Hartlib papers 1659 Goretsky hath an invention of lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings which make a most admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] String of guts done about with silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretskys invention) and 1664 John Playford: An Introduction to the Skill of Musik...: There is a late invention of strings.. it is a small wire twisted or gimp'd upon a gut string or silk Were they making it up as being a new invention? MH --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng [2][6]shaunk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Shaun Ng [3][7]shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: [4][8]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl [5][9]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Cc: [6][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [7][11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45 Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit too late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way to get credible information about musical instruments anyway. Shaun Ng 0426240 775 | [1][8][12]shaunk...@gmail.com | shaunng.blogspot.com On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, [2][9][13]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: Dear Anthony, Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said before, the change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems, and then traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
I'm sorry Martyn, the thread is very long. Just mention the book, image, quote, etc. On 29/11/2012, at 8:37 PM, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, With respect, I think I've already answered this - see below regards Martyn --- On Thu, 29/11/12, Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 29 November, 2012, 9:34 Dear Martyn, Yes, I am aware of these things. The evidence for loading on strings is? Or has the lute world already made a collective decision not to ask this question anymore? Shaun On 29/11/2012, at 7:30 PM, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, You ask: 'But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find?' The explanation for thin bass strings on at least some lutes (I presume you're referring to measurements of bidge hole diametrs) is either very low (elastic band) tensions or denser strings. The latter achieved by loading or wire winding - the weight of evidence suggesting that before 1660 (and, in my view, after too - did wound strings ever become common for the Dm lute?) the denser string was achieved by loading. But we've all been here before.. regards Martyn From: Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [LUTE] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 19:43 Dear Martyn, Thanks for these sources. I don't think they were making it up, but I do find the Playford source questionable, being an advertisement. I know this sounds nitpicky, but all it says is 'silver wire' on string is the new invention. It doesn't say what came before. Kapsberger used a wire strung theorbo, if I remember rightly, and it predates both these sources, so that's at least evidence of non gut string use. But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find? Shaun Ng On 29/11/2012, at 2:02, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes...', what do you mean by 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; better than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what? And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence (eg the numerous paintings) and the historical record (eg wound strings were new in the 1660s: Hartlib papers 1659 Goretsky hath an invention of lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings which make a most admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] String of guts done about with silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretskys invention) and 1664 John Playford: An Introduction to the Skill of Musik...: There is a late invention of strings.. it is a small wire twisted or gimp'd upon a gut string or silk Were they making it up as being a new invention? MH --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng [2]shaunk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Shaun Ng [3]shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: [4]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl [5]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Cc: [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45 Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit too late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way to get credible information about musical instruments anyway. Shaun Ng 0426240 775 | [1][8]shaunk...@gmail.com | shaunng.blogspot.com On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, [2][9]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: Dear Anthony, Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said before, the change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems, and then traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write longer messages. I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too long. You touched a couple of related
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
Dear Shaun, As said, the nub of the case is set out in my last but one email. And, of course, the many, many others from numerous people commenting on the matter over the moths (and years). Anthony Hind and Mimmo Peruffo, to name but two, are amongst those providing or transmitting significant source evidence by email. If you wish to explore the subject further you will simply have to trawl the archives (and/or other documents) - not only this thread but the many others devoted to the topic. But, as said elsewhere, it's important to bear in mind that, in lieu of extant string samples, we're not speaking of 100% certainties but of 'civil court'-like weight of evidence considerations. regards, Martyn --- On Thu, 29/11/12, Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 29 November, 2012, 9:42 I'm sorry Martyn, the thread is very long. Just mention the book, image, quote, etc. On 29/11/2012, at 8:37 PM, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, With respect, I think I've already answered this - see below regards Martyn --- On Thu, 29/11/12, Shaun Ng [2]shaunk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Shaun Ng [3]shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute Dmth [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 29 November, 2012, 9:34 Dear Martyn, Yes, I am aware of these things. The evidence for loading on strings is? Or has the lute world already made a collective decision not to ask this question anymore? Shaun On 29/11/2012, at 7:30 PM, Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, You ask: 'But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find?' The explanation for thin bass strings on at least some lutes (I presume you're referring to measurements of bidge hole diametrs) is either very low (elastic band) tensions or denser strings. The latter achieved by loading or wire winding - the weight of evidence suggesting that before 1660 (and, in my view, after too - did wound strings ever become common for the Dm lute?) the denser string was achieved by loading. But we've all been here before.. regards Martyn From: Shaun Ng [7]shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [LUTE] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: Martyn Hodgson [8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute Dmth [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 19:43 Dear Martyn, Thanks for these sources. I don't think they were making it up, but I do find the Playford source questionable, being an advertisement. I know this sounds nitpicky, but all it says is 'silver wire' on string is the new invention. It doesn't say what came before. Kapsberger used a wire strung theorbo, if I remember rightly, and it predates both these sources, so that's at least evidence of non gut string use. But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find? Shaun Ng On 29/11/2012, at 2:02, Martyn Hodgson [1][10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes...', what do you mean by 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; better than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what? And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence (eg the numerous paintings) and the historical record (eg wound strings were new in the 1660s: Hartlib papers 1659 Goretsky hath an invention of lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings which make a most admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] String of guts done about with silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretskys invention) and 1664 John Playford: An Introduction to the Skill of Musik...: There is a late invention of strings.. it is a small wire twisted or gimp'd upon a gut string or silk Were they making it up as being a new invention? MH --- On Wed
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
Ah well - It looks like we have started arguing in circles using hypotheses that don't lend themselves to testing. Until we can get hold of a fragment of an old thin bass string that can be subjected to physical and chemical analysis, this argument will go on and on without reaching a conclusion on which we can all agree. Are there absolutely no museum specimens with tiny bits of old gut tied in the bridge? The Wolf 12c in Fuessen seems to have the odd bit of gut stuck in its bridge - Has anybody looked at it? Is it old? How can we tell? Now here's a related question that I've never seen an answer to - When did overwound strings become the norm for basses of fretted instruments? When can we be sure that just about everyone was using them? Was it in the early 19th Century - Sor, Aguado and so on - or is there firm evidence from before then that they were in general use? Did anybody write it up? I don't know the answer because it's not a period I know much about, but if not, then it's hardly surprising that nobody wrote up the technology of the basses in use in the rather less scientifically-minded 17th century. All the best, Bill From: Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2012, 9:42 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? I'm sorry Martyn, the thread is very long. Just mention the book, image, quote, etc. On 29/11/2012, at 8:37 PM, Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, With respect, I think I've already answered this - see below regards Martyn --- On Thu, 29/11/12, Shaun Ng [2]shaunk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Shaun Ng [3]shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute Dmth [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 29 November, 2012, 9:34 Dear Martyn, Yes, I am aware of these things. The evidence for loading on strings is? Or has the lute world already made a collective decision not to ask this question anymore? Shaun On 29/11/2012, at 7:30 PM, Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, You ask: 'But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find?' The explanation for thin bass strings on at least some lutes (I presume you're referring to measurements of bidge hole diametrs) is either very low (elastic band) tensions or denser strings. The latter achieved by loading or wire winding - the weight of evidence suggesting that before 1660 (and, in my view, after too - did wound strings ever become common for the Dm lute?) the denser string was achieved by loading. But we've all been here before.. regards Martyn From: Shaun Ng [7]shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [LUTE] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: Martyn Hodgson [8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Lute Dmth [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 19:43 Dear Martyn, Thanks for these sources. I don't think they were making it up, but I do find the Playford source questionable, being an advertisement. I know this sounds nitpicky, but all it says is 'silver wire' on string is the new invention. It doesn't say what came before. Kapsberger used a wire strung theorbo, if I remember rightly, and it predates both these sources, so that's at least evidence of non gut string use. But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find? Shaun Ng On 29/11/2012, at 2:02, Martyn Hodgson [1][10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes...', what do you mean by 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; better than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what? And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence (eg the numerous paintings) and the historical record (eg wound strings were new in the 1660s: Hartlib papers 1659 Goretsky hath an invention of lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
Hi Shaun, Hi Martyn, unfortunately I cannot say too much on this topic, at least for the 17th century. For sure wound strings had been available in the 18th century. At least Frank Legl has found some accounts around 1750 in Munich, where there are mentioned halb umsponnene Saiten (= half wound strings). I think that he even told that these had been lute strings, but I'm not sure at the moment. If there had been half wound strings, there probably also were full wound strings. Another important source, though late, on all topics of life is Krünitz, Oeconomische Encyclopädie. Probably it also depends on the encyclopedy of Diderot and on other encyclopedys, for sure at least some things will have been copied. It has 242 volumes and describes many things very detailed. He has big articles on the lute and on strings Krünitz, Artikel Laute (lute, vol. 66, p. 380ff, 1795) 1. Ein musikalisches Saiten=Instrument, von sehr angenehmen Klange, mit hohlem und runden Bauche, langem und oben zurückgebogenen Halse, welches mit 10, 12, bis 14, zuweilen auch nur mit 11 Darm=Saiten, die zuweilen mit Silber=Draht besponnen sind, und mit beyden Händen geschlagen werden, überzogen ist. (= A musical string instrument with a very sweet sound which is stringed with 10,12, up to 14, sometimes even only 11 gut strings, that are sometimes wound with silver wire) Artikel Saiten (strings, Vol. 130, p. 1822) Man färbt die Saiten auch blau und roth; blau, indem man sie durch eine kalte Brühe von Lackmus mit Potasche, roth, indem man sie durch den Auszug der türkischen Schminklappen und Potasche durchzieht. Sowohl die gefärbten, als die weißen Saiten werden nachher geschleimt, weil der Schleim den Ton stumpf macht. Die blaugefärbten Saiten nehmen im Schwefeln eine rothe Farbe an. (Here he describes in detail how strings are made, the short part tells how the strings had been colored blue with litmus and potash, and red with turkish paint cloth (?Schminklappen?) and potash). Krünitz is very late, but he sums up everything from the 16th to the 18th century. In his article on the lute he mentions beside others Besard, Baron, Weiss etc. Zedler, who has written a huge encyclopedy Universal-Lexicon - 60 volumes the last was published in 1750 -, mentions that gut strings had been colored in yellow (with sulfur), green, blue and red. So it is clear, that in earlier times they had been able to color strings and to wind them with wire. And at least it seems possible that they had been able to also load gut ... Best regards Markus -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail mar...@gmlutz.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:04:48 +0100, Markus Lutz wrote Hi Shaun, Hi Martyn, unfortunately I cannot say too much on this topic, at least for the 17th century. [...] Another important source, though late, on all topics of life is Krünitz, Oeconomische Encyclopädie. Probably it also depends on the encyclopedy of Diderot and on other encyclopedys, for sure at least some things will have been copied. It has 242 volumes and describes many things very detailed. He has big articles on the lute and on strings Krünitz, Artikel Laute (lute, vol. 66, p. 380ff, 1795) But this is rather late as a source for information on 17th century lute practice (or even for the first half of the 18th century). There have been two changes in lute building during that time: first, the extension of the bass range by adding a second pegbox (swank neck lutes) and then the change to bass rider style lutes during the 18th century (the later could well be a in response to a wider availability of overspun bass strings). [...] Artikel Saiten (strings, Vol. 130, p. 1822) Man färbt die Saiten auch blau und roth; blau, indem man sie durch eine kalte Brühe von Lackmus mit Potasche, roth, indem man sie durch den Auszug der türkischen Schminklappen und Potasche durchzieht. Sowohl die gefärbten, als die weißen Saiten werden nachher geschleimt, weil der Schleim den Ton stumpf macht. Die blaugefärbten Saiten nehmen im Schwefeln eine rothe Farbe an. (Here he describes in detail how strings are made, the short part tells how the strings had been colored blue with litmus and potash, and red with turkish paint cloth (?Schminklappen?) and potash). Schminklappen are coloured/dyed pieces of cloth that were used to give to give the skin a redish teint. The cloth (or paper - Schmikpaier) was made wet (humid) and rubbed over the face. Turkish might give a hint at the colour used: probaly turkish Krapplack (Rubia tinctorum, eng. dyer's madder), a widely used colour until the 19th century. Krünitz is very late, but he sums up everything from the 16th to the 18th century. In his article on the lute he mentions beside others Besard, Baron, Weiss etc. Yes, so utterly unuseable as a source for when things fist show up ;-) Cheers, Ralf Mattes -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
Kapsberger used a wire strung theorbo... Apples and oranges. Monofilament wire string technology, used in musical instruments, goes way back- predating the Renaissance, maybe 13th century (best I can remember off the top of my head). Nothing to do with the idea of thin wire overwound on a gut or silk core. Merely citing the fact of non-gut string use does nothing to extend our knowledge of the existence of wire wounds back to to anytime earlier than the already known sources. On 29/11/2012 15:32, William Samson wrote: Interesting point Martin. Both you and Martyn have suggested that if much lower tensions were used in the basses than we use today, that could be the answer without conjectural winding or loading. I think the proof of the pudding would be in the trying out of this possibility. Has anybody strung a 9c in this way? Does it play in tune - particularly when notes are stopped? If I'm interpreting correctly what I see on Arto's String Calculator, with aA5 and a string stop of 63cm (which would just about allow a gut chanterelle to be tuned to g) the tension of the 9th course tuned to C with a 1.4mm dia gut string would be about 1.2kg. It's certainly low by present day standards, but is it unfeasibly low? As to how light a tension can be used by the performer, the lightest I have heard about are Toyohiko Satoh's recommendations from 2009. As a player of impeccable credentials repute in this field, working recording with actual historic instruments, and in close contact with Mimmo Peruffo, the fruit- so far- of his research is of special value should carry a bit of weight.. In his tables of string tensions ranging from 6 course lute up to archlute the lightest working tensions he comes up with are in the 2.1 kg. area- the very lightest being the 1.95 high octave strings on courses 5 6 for his six course lute. My own stringing, by necessity needing to work with certainly less sensitive instruments than Satoh's, (and played by less sensitive performer!), have to be a touch heavier- but not much. Paradoxically, I do get away with much lighter tension on my archlute diapasons. Your mileage may vary. Dan On 11/28/2012 11:43 AM, Shaun Ng wrote: Dear Martyn, Thanks for these sources. I don't think they were making it up, but I do find the Playford source questionable, being an advertisement. I know this sounds nitpicky, but all it says is 'silver wire' on string is the new invention. It doesn't say what came before. Kapsberger used a wire strung theorbo, if I remember rightly, and it predates both these sources, so that's at least evidence of non gut string use. But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find? Shaun Ng On 29/11/2012, at 2:02, Martyn Hodgsonhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes...', what do you mean by 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; better than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what? And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence (eg the numerous paintings) and the historical record (eg wound strings were new in the 1660s: Hartlib papers 1659 Goretsky hath an invention of lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings which make a most admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] String of guts done about with silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretskys invention) and 1664 John Playford: An Introduction to the Skill of Musik...: There is a late invention of strings.. it is a small wire twisted or gimp'd upon a gut string or silk Were they making it up as being a new invention? MH --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ngshaunk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Shaun Ngshaunk...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: jaroslawlip...@wp.pljaroslawlip...@wp.pl Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edulute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45 Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit too late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way to get credible information about musical instruments anyway. Shaun Ng 0426240 775 | [1]shaunk...@gmail.com | shaunng.blogspot.com On 28/11/2012, at 5:35,[2]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: To get on or off this list see list information at
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
How about Zedler? The 64 volumes were published between 1732 and 1754, vol. 33 describing interesting things on the topic of saite, like the process of manufacturing, different colours and materials. No loading, I'm afraid, but overspuns, though they seem to serve as a kind of jewelery thread... http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~zedler/zedler2007/index.html Anyway, I seem to remember Tim Crawford citing in Bremen recently an article in an encyclopedia for ladies, explaning a lute to be strung with gut strings overspun with silver (Leipzig? first half of 18th cent.?). Regards Stephan Am 29.11.2012, 16:10 Uhr, schrieb R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de: On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:04:48 +0100, Markus Lutz wrote Hi Shaun, Hi Martyn, unfortunately I cannot say too much on this topic, at least for the 17th century. [...] Another important source, though late, on all topics of life is Krünitz, Oeconomische Encyclopädie. Probably it also depends on the encyclopedy of Diderot and on other encyclopedys, for sure at least some things will have been copied. It has 242 volumes and describes many things very detailed. He has big articles on the lute and on strings Krünitz, Artikel Laute (lute, vol. 66, p. 380ff, 1795) But this is rather late as a source for information on 17th century lute practice (or even for the first half of the 18th century). There have been two changes in lute building during that time: first, the extension of the bass range by adding a second pegbox (swank neck lutes) and then the change to bass rider style lutes during the 18th century (the later could well be a in response to a wider availability of overspun bass strings). [...] Artikel Saiten (strings, Vol. 130, p. 1822) Man färbt die Saiten auch blau und roth; blau, indem man sie durch eine kalte Brühe von Lackmus mit Potasche, roth, indem man sie durch den Auszug der türkischen Schminklappen und Potasche durchzieht. Sowohl die gefärbten, als die weißen Saiten werden nachher geschleimt, weil der Schleim den Ton stumpf macht. Die blaugefärbten Saiten nehmen im Schwefeln eine rothe Farbe an. (Here he describes in detail how strings are made, the short part tells how the strings had been colored blue with litmus and potash, and red with turkish paint cloth (?Schminklappen?) and potash). Schminklappen are coloured/dyed pieces of cloth that were used to give to give the skin a redish teint. The cloth (or paper - Schmikpaier) was made wet (humid) and rubbed over the face. Turkish might give a hint at the colour used: probaly turkish Krapplack (Rubia tinctorum, eng. dyer's madder), a widely used colour until the 19th century. Krünitz is very late, but he sums up everything from the 16th to the 18th century. In his article on the lute he mentions beside others Besard, Baron, Weiss etc. Yes, so utterly unuseable as a source for when things fist show up ;-) Cheers, Ralf Mattes -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Viele Grüße Best regards Stephan Olbertz
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
Well, wouldn't this mean that every time we see a painting of an instrument with strings, we would have to consider one more stringing option, instead of just gut or wound? It says something quite important, that metal strings on instruments existed. Now, in the light of this, interpretation of later sources concerning wound strings changes. Hundreds of years of different metals, and now we hear about silver on gut from a private correspondence (Goretzky) and an advertisement (Playford), which may have not appeared in Playford's book had an entry not been made; it doesn't appear in later editions of Playford reprinted into the 18th century. It doesn't appear in Mace either, I think. Sounds to me like indifference to new technology, but is it really completely new considering metals have been around for such a long time? Shaun Ng On 30/11/2012, at 5:45, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Kapsberger used a wire strung theorbo... Apples and oranges. Monofilament wire string technology, used in musical instruments, goes way back- predating the Renaissance, maybe 13th century (best I can remember off the top of my head). Nothing to do with the idea of thin wire overwound on a gut or silk core. Merely citing the fact of non-gut string use does nothing to extend our knowledge of the existence of wire wounds back to to anytime earlier than the already known sources. On 29/11/2012 15:32, William Samson wrote: Interesting point Martin. Both you and Martyn have suggested that if much lower tensions were used in the basses than we use today, that could be the answer without conjectural winding or loading. I think the proof of the pudding would be in the trying out of this possibility. Has anybody strung a 9c in this way? Does it play in tune - particularly when notes are stopped? If I'm interpreting correctly what I see on Arto's String Calculator, with aA5 and a string stop of 63cm (which would just about allow a gut chanterelle to be tuned to g) the tension of the 9th course tuned to C with a 1.4mm dia gut string would be about 1.2kg. It's certainly low by present day standards, but is it unfeasibly low? As to how light a tension can be used by the performer, the lightest I have heard about are Toyohiko Satoh's recommendations from 2009. As a player of impeccable credentials repute in this field, working recording with actual historic instruments, and in close contact with Mimmo Peruffo, the fruit- so far- of his research is of special value should carry a bit of weight.. In his tables of string tensions ranging from 6 course lute up to archlute the lightest working tensions he comes up with are in the 2.1 kg. area- the very lightest being the 1.95 high octave strings on courses 5 6 for his six course lute. My own stringing, by necessity needing to work with certainly less sensitive instruments than Satoh's, (and played by less sensitive performer!), have to be a touch heavier- but not much. Paradoxically, I do get away with much lighter tension on my archlute diapasons. Your mileage may vary. Dan On 11/28/2012 11:43 AM, Shaun Ng wrote: Dear Martyn, Thanks for these sources. I don't think they were making it up, but I do find the Playford source questionable, being an advertisement. I know this sounds nitpicky, but all it says is 'silver wire' on string is the new invention. It doesn't say what came before. Kapsberger used a wire strung theorbo, if I remember rightly, and it predates both these sources, so that's at least evidence of non gut string use. But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find? Shaun Ng On 29/11/2012, at 2:02, Martyn Hodgsonhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes...', what do you mean by 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; better than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what? And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence (eg the numerous paintings) and the historical record (eg wound strings were new in the 1660s: Hartlib papers 1659 Goretsky hath an invention of lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings which make a most admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] String of guts done about with silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretskys invention) and 1664 John Playford: An Introduction to the Skill of Musik...: There is a late invention of strings.. it is a small wire twisted or gimp'd upon a gut string or silk Were they making it up as being a new invention? MH --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ngshaunk...@gmail.com wrote:
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
Seems that there is just a little bit more evidence for wound string use in the 18th century than there is for their supposed invention in the 1660s. Shaun Ng On 30/11/2012, at 9:39, Stephan Olbertz stephan.olbe...@web.de wrote: How about Zedler? The 64 volumes were published between 1732 and 1754, vol. 33 describing interesting things on the topic of saite, like the process of manufacturing, different colours and materials. No loading, I'm afraid, but overspuns, though they seem to serve as a kind of jewelery thread... http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~zedler/zedler2007/index.html Anyway, I seem to remember Tim Crawford citing in Bremen recently an article in an encyclopedia for ladies, explaning a lute to be strung with gut strings overspun with silver (Leipzig? first half of 18th cent.?). Regards Stephan Am 29.11.2012, 16:10 Uhr, schrieb R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de: On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:04:48 +0100, Markus Lutz wrote Hi Shaun, Hi Martyn, unfortunately I cannot say too much on this topic, at least for the 17th century. [...] Another important source, though late, on all topics of life is Krünitz, Oeconomische Encyclopädie. Probably it also depends on the encyclopedy of Diderot and on other encyclopedys, for sure at least some things will have been copied. It has 242 volumes and describes many things very detailed. He has big articles on the lute and on strings Krünitz, Artikel Laute (lute, vol. 66, p. 380ff, 1795) But this is rather late as a source for information on 17th century lute practice (or even for the first half of the 18th century). There have been two changes in lute building during that time: first, the extension of the bass range by adding a second pegbox (swank neck lutes) and then the change to bass rider style lutes during the 18th century (the later could well be a in response to a wider availability of overspun bass strings). [...] Artikel Saiten (strings, Vol. 130, p. 1822) Man färbt die Saiten auch blau und roth; blau, indem man sie durch eine kalte Brühe von Lackmus mit Potasche, roth, indem man sie durch den Auszug der türkischen Schminklappen und Potasche durchzieht. Sowohl die gefärbten, als die weißen Saiten werden nachher geschleimt, weil der Schleim den Ton stumpf macht. Die blaugefärbten Saiten nehmen im Schwefeln eine rothe Farbe an. (Here he describes in detail how strings are made, the short part tells how the strings had been colored blue with litmus and potash, and red with turkish paint cloth (?Schminklappen?) and potash). Schminklappen are coloured/dyed pieces of cloth that were used to give to give the skin a redish teint. The cloth (or paper - Schmikpaier) was made wet (humid) and rubbed over the face. Turkish might give a hint at the colour used: probaly turkish Krapplack (Rubia tinctorum, eng. dyer's madder), a widely used colour until the 19th century. Krünitz is very late, but he sums up everything from the 16th to the 18th century. In his article on the lute he mentions beside others Besard, Baron, Weiss etc. Yes, so utterly unuseable as a source for when things fist show up ;-) Cheers, Ralf Mattes -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Viele Grüße Best regards Stephan Olbertz
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
The lexicon, dated 1715, is available with this link: http://diglib.hab.de/wdb.php?dir=drucke/ae-12 Andreas Am 29.11.2012 um 23:39 schrieb Stephan Olbertz: How about Zedler? The 64 volumes were published between 1732 and 1754, vol. 33 describing interesting things on the topic of saite, like the process of manufacturing, different colours and materials. No loading, I'm afraid, but overspuns, though they seem to serve as a kind of jewelery thread... http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~zedler/zedler2007/index.html Anyway, I seem to remember Tim Crawford citing in Bremen recently an article in an encyclopedia for ladies, explaning a lute to be strung with gut strings overspun with silver (Leipzig? first half of 18th cent.?). Regards Stephan Am 29.11.2012, 16:10 Uhr, schrieb R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de: On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 12:04:48 +0100, Markus Lutz wrote Hi Shaun, Hi Martyn, unfortunately I cannot say too much on this topic, at least for the 17th century. [...] Another important source, though late, on all topics of life is Krünitz, Oeconomische Encyclopädie. Probably it also depends on the encyclopedy of Diderot and on other encyclopedys, for sure at least some things will have been copied. It has 242 volumes and describes many things very detailed. He has big articles on the lute and on strings Krünitz, Artikel Laute (lute, vol. 66, p. 380ff, 1795) But this is rather late as a source for information on 17th century lute practice (or even for the first half of the 18th century). There have been two changes in lute building during that time: first, the extension of the bass range by adding a second pegbox (swank neck lutes) and then the change to bass rider style lutes during the 18th century (the later could well be a in response to a wider availability of overspun bass strings). [...] Artikel Saiten (strings, Vol. 130, p. 1822) Man färbt die Saiten auch blau und roth; blau, indem man sie durch eine kalte Brühe von Lackmus mit Potasche, roth, indem man sie durch den Auszug der türkischen Schminklappen und Potasche durchzieht. Sowohl die gefärbten, als die weißen Saiten werden nachher geschleimt, weil der Schleim den Ton stumpf macht. Die blaugefärbten Saiten nehmen im Schwefeln eine rothe Farbe an. (Here he describes in detail how strings are made, the short part tells how the strings had been colored blue with litmus and potash, and red with turkish paint cloth (?Schminklappen?) and potash). Schminklappen are coloured/dyed pieces of cloth that were used to give to give the skin a redish teint. The cloth (or paper - Schmikpaier) was made wet (humid) and rubbed over the face. Turkish might give a hint at the colour used: probaly turkish Krapplack (Rubia tinctorum, eng. dyer's madder), a widely used colour until the 19th century. Krünitz is very late, but he sums up everything from the 16th to the 18th century. In his article on the lute he mentions beside others Besard, Baron, Weiss etc. Yes, so utterly unuseable as a source for when things fist show up ;-) Cheers, Ralf Mattes -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Viele Grüße Best regards Stephan Olbertz
[LUTE-BUILDER] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes...', what do you mean by 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; better than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what? And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence and historical record? MH --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: jaroslawlip...@wp.pl jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45 Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit too late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way to get credible information about musical instruments anyway. Shaun Ng 0426240 775 | [1]shaunk...@gmail.com | shaunng.blogspot.com On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, [2]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: Dear Anthony, Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said before, the change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems, and then traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write longer messages. I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too long. You touched a couple of related topics in your last email, so I will try to address them separately. ROTTEN GUT Obviously the word rotten can have at least 2 meanings, however I am afraid in this case Mace very clearly writes about decay of gut strings. Just one example: for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the DECAY of the string The word decay reappears several times in the technical part of Music's Monument, always in conjunction with the word rottenness. This can't be coincidental. Now, one can consider why it is so difficult for us to accept that decay process of a gut string could be real. I can see two reasons, namely: 1/ none of us saw a rotting gut 2/ Mace is viewed as a very eccentric man thence unreliable source of historical information. I would like to challenge both of these notions. 1/ Is this possible for a gut to decay? Gut is an organic substance so if unprotected it would start to decay very fast. Modern gut strings are very well chemically protected against such a possibility. In Mace times gut was treated with Griepoli i.e. tartar and a small quantity of Roch Allum (as Philip Skippon an English traveller who visited an Italian string manufacture testifies in 1663). In general gut absorbs humidity very easily during which process it swells putting on some weight and volume. The porous structure of gut and the way strands are assembled into a string makes it even more susceptible to decay. Now, if we try to recreate conditions that people were used to live in an average English household in 17c. (maybe excluding aristocracy), and Mace was not a wealthy man, it is not difficult to imagine that walls of such a building that had never seen a central heating system would be prone to keep constant humidity inside. In that light Mace's advice to keep a lute in the room with fireplace and even his amusing remark to wrap it in blankets seems to be quite practical. We don't know what was the climate in 17c., but we can easily assume that in England it would be definitely humid. Mace's remarks seem to confirm this: for the bed will dry up all the moisture and clamminess, which moist weather constantly ocassions to any thing made of wood etc. I can only try to imagine that clammy furniture and other wooden things. Therefore Mace says that old lutes are better than new because: if this thick-strong-lusty-sturdy-oak will (in 100 years) decay, by such usage; how much more easily then, must a lute (made of gentle wood, and so very thin) with such like ill usage decay? Yet we see, that many lutes there are of a great age and I myself have at this present a lute made of ayre, that is above 100 years old, a very strong lute... To complement this picture one has to add the level of hygiene and knowledge of elementary microbiological processes during that time. We don't even know under what conditions strings were transported and stored before selling by merchants. I am not surprised Mace
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
I don't suppose we'll ever know for sure, unless somebody comes across a well-preserved, accurately dated stash of old lute strings - or perhaps they have all decayed/rotted? Still, interesting views are being expressed. I suppose what we should all be doing is trying to produce as good a musical sound (to our own ears at least) as we can, using what's available to us. In all probability it will be different from what was admired at the time, but short of discovering time-travel, there's not much we can do about finding out how it actually did sound back then. I'd bet, though, that it would sound quite 'eccentric' to our ears. Bill From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute builder Dmth lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 28 November 2012, 8:57 Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes...', what do you mean by 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; better than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what? And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence and historical record? MH --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng [1]shaunk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Shaun Ng [2]shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: [3]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl [4]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Cc: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45 Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit too late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way to get credible information about musical instruments anyway. Shaun Ng 0426240 775 | [1][7]shaunk...@gmail.com | shaunng.blogspot.com On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, [2][8]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: Dear Anthony, Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said before, the change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems, and then traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write longer messages. I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too long. You touched a couple of related topics in your last email, so I will try to address them separately. ROTTEN GUT Obviously the word rotten can have at least 2 meanings, however I am afraid in this case Mace very clearly writes about decay of gut strings. Just one example: for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the DECAY of the string The word decay reappears several times in the technical part of Music's Monument, always in conjunction with the word rottenness. This can't be coincidental. Now, one can consider why it is so difficult for us to accept that decay process of a gut string could be real. I can see two reasons, namely: 1/ none of us saw a rotting gut 2/ Mace is viewed as a very eccentric man thence unreliable source of historical information. I would like to challenge both of these notions. 1/ Is this possible for a gut to decay? Gut is an organic substance so if unprotected it would start to decay very fast. Modern gut strings are very well chemically protected against such a possibility. In Mace times gut was treated with Griepoli i.e. tartar and a small quantity of Roch Allum (as Philip Skippon an English traveller who visited an Italian string manufacture testifies in 1663). In general gut absorbs humidity very easily during which process it swells putting on some weight and volume. The porous structure of gut and the way strands are assembled into a string makes it even more susceptible to decay. Now, if we try to recreate conditions that people were used to live in an average English household in 17c. (maybe excluding aristocracy), and Mace was not a wealthy man, it is not difficult to imagine that walls of such a building that had never seen a central heating system would be prone to keep constant humidity inside. In that light Mace's advice to keep a lute in the room with fireplace and even his amusing remark to wrap
[LUTE] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
Dear Shaun, When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes...', what do you mean by 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; better than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what? And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence (eg the numerous paintings) and the historical record (eg wound strings were new in the 1660s: Hartlib papers 1659 Goretsky hath an invention of lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings which make a most admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] String of guts done about with silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretskys invention) and 1664 John Playford: An Introduction to the Skill of Musik...: There is a late invention of strings.. it is a small wire twisted or gimp'd upon a gut string or silk Were they making it up as being a new invention? MH --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: jaroslawlip...@wp.pl jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45 Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit too late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way to get credible information about musical instruments anyway. Shaun Ng 0426240 775 | [1]shaunk...@gmail.com | shaunng.blogspot.com On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, [2]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: Dear Anthony, Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said before, the change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems, and then traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write longer messages. I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too long. You touched a couple of related topics in your last email, so I will try to address them separately. ROTTEN GUT Obviously the word rotten can have at least 2 meanings, however I am afraid in this case Mace very clearly writes about decay of gut strings. Just one example: for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the DECAY of the string The word decay reappears several times in the technical part of Music's Monument, always in conjunction with the word rottenness. This can't be coincidental. Now, one can consider why it is so difficult for us to accept that decay process of a gut string could be real. I can see two reasons, namely: 1/ none of us saw a rotting gut 2/ Mace is viewed as a very eccentric man thence unreliable source of historical information. I would like to challenge both of these notions. 1/ Is this possible for a gut to decay? Gut is an organic substance so if unprotected it would start to decay very fast. Modern gut strings are very well chemically protected against such a possibility. In Mace times gut was treated with Griepoli i.e. tartar and a small quantity of Roch Allum (as Philip Skippon an English traveller who visited an Italian string manufacture testifies in 1663). In general gut absorbs humidity very easily during which process it swells putting on some weight and volume. The porous structure of gut and the way strands are assembled into a string makes it even more susceptible to decay. Now, if we try to recreate conditions that people were used to live in an average English household in 17c. (maybe excluding aristocracy), and Mace was not a wealthy man, it is not difficult to imagine that walls of such a building that had never seen a central heating system would be prone to keep constant humidity inside. In that light Mace's advice to keep a lute in the room with fireplace and even his amusing remark to wrap it in blankets seems to be quite practical. We don't know what was the climate in 17c., but we can easily assume that in England it would be definitely humid. Mace's remarks seem to confirm this: for the bed will dry up all the moisture and clamminess, which moist weather constantly ocassions to any thing made of wood etc. I can only try to imagine that clammy furniture and other wooden things. Therefore Mace says that old lutes are better than new because: if this thick-strong-lusty-sturdy-oak will (in 100 years) decay, by such
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
Dear Bill, I meant to send the email to the lute list but pressed the wrong button - I've rectified this now. As you say it's unlikely we'll know for absolute certain - but I think we can be pretty sure (95%+?) that before 1660 wire wounds were unknown (tho' of course, twisted/braided wire was used for wire strung instrument basses since the 16th century) and so paintings showing coloured basses represent simple colouring effects or something else: loading perhaps. Because of the limitation of string diameters on some original bridges (and shown in some of the clearer paintings) I favour denser basses which implies loaded strings. But they may have been happy with a rubber band feel in the bass even when plucked at the bridge - tho clearly there was an awareness that basses might be too weak (hence theorbos etc) No need to go over the story again here but its more a matter of the weight of evidence rather than a categorical proof - ie more civil court than criminal court burden of proof. So I don't think we need be so pessimistic as to think 'In all probability it will be different from what was admired at the time' since the weight of evidence does indicate much. And this is the history of such research - incremental steps. regards Martyn --- On Wed, 28/11/12, William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Lute builder Dmth lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 11:38 I don't suppose we'll ever know for sure, unless somebody comes across a well-preserved, accurately dated stash of old lute strings - or perhaps they have all decayed/rotted? Still, interesting views are being expressed. I suppose what we should all be doing is trying to produce as good a musical sound (to our own ears at least) as we can, using what's available to us. In all probability it will be different from what was admired at the time, but short of discovering time-travel, there's not much we can do about finding out how it actually did sound back then. I'd bet, though, that it would sound quite 'eccentric' to our ears. Bill From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute builder Dmth [2]lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 28 November 2012, 8:57 Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes...', what do you mean by 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; better than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what? And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence and historical record? MH --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng [1][3]shaunk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Shaun Ng [2][4]shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: [3][5]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl [4][6]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Cc: [5][7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [6][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45 Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit too late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way to get credible information about musical instruments anyway. Shaun Ng 0426240 775 | [1][7][9]shaunk...@gmail.com | shaunng.blogspot.com On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, [2][8][10]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: Dear Anthony, Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said before, the change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems, and then traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write longer messages. I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too long. You touched a couple of related topics in your last email, so I will try to address them separately. ROTTEN GUT Obviously the word rotten can have at least 2 meanings, however I am afraid in this case Mace
[LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
Dear Martyn, Thanks for these sources. I don't think they were making it up, but I do find the Playford source questionable, being an advertisement. I know this sounds nitpicky, but all it says is 'silver wire' on string is the new invention. It doesn't say what came before. Kapsberger used a wire strung theorbo, if I remember rightly, and it predates both these sources, so that's at least evidence of non gut string use. But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find? Shaun Ng On 29/11/2012, at 2:02, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Dear Shaun, When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes...', what do you mean by 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; better than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what? And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence (eg the numerous paintings) and the historical record (eg wound strings were new in the 1660s: Hartlib papers 1659 Goretsky hath an invention of lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings which make a most admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] String of guts done about with silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretskys invention) and 1664 John Playford: An Introduction to the Skill of Musik...: There is a late invention of strings.. it is a small wire twisted or gimp'd upon a gut string or silk Were they making it up as being a new invention? MH --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com wrote: From: Shaun Ng shaunk...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: jaroslawlip...@wp.pl jaroslawlip...@wp.pl Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45 Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit too late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way to get credible information about musical instruments anyway. Shaun Ng 0426240 775 | [1]shaunk...@gmail.com | shaunng.blogspot.com On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, [2]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote: Dear Anthony, Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said before, the change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems, and then traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write longer messages. I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too long. You touched a couple of related topics in your last email, so I will try to address them separately. ROTTEN GUT Obviously the word rotten can have at least 2 meanings, however I am afraid in this case Mace very clearly writes about decay of gut strings. Just one example: for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the DECAY of the string The word decay reappears several times in the technical part of Music's Monument, always in conjunction with the word rottenness. This can't be coincidental. Now, one can consider why it is so difficult for us to accept that decay process of a gut string could be real. I can see two reasons, namely: 1/ none of us saw a rotting gut 2/ Mace is viewed as a very eccentric man thence unreliable source of historical information. I would like to challenge both of these notions. 1/ Is this possible for a gut to decay? Gut is an organic substance so if unprotected it would start to decay very fast. Modern gut strings are very well chemically protected against such a possibility. In Mace times gut was treated with Griepoli i.e. tartar and a small quantity of Roch Allum (as Philip Skippon an English traveller who visited an Italian string manufacture testifies in 1663). In general gut absorbs humidity very easily during which process it swells putting on some weight and volume. The porous structure of gut and the way strands are assembled into a string makes it even more susceptible to decay. Now, if we try to recreate conditions that people were used to live in an average English household in 17c. (maybe excluding aristocracy), and Mace was not a wealthy man, it is not difficult to imagine that walls of such a building that had never seen a central heating system would be prone to keep constant humidity inside. In that light Mace's advice to keep a lute in the room with fireplace and even his amusing remark to wrap it in blankets seems to be quite
