Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * First, as I recall you made the point that the mass testing in South Korea was effective in combatting the coronavirus. You advocate mass testing as opposed to social distancing. The point has been made elsewhere that South Korea has a single payer system, which is much more effective in dealing with this crisis than the US system. The US system is not going to change in the short term. Also, one of the obstacles to mass testing in the US has been the fact that they have very few test kits. This is not going to change within days, or even within 2 weeks. Secondly, are you suggesting that the virus will pass through the population at the same rate whether or not we stay in our homes or go out and mix with other people? ken h _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * We can always ask the Pope to pray for us. That worked well in the fourteenth century, didn't it? _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * "But your BS about "the Lockdown Left" chases a discussion that wasn't taking place into a rhetorical swamp, intoxicates itself with the fumes of own abstractions, and falls face first into the mud." And as much as I respect *Homo Sacer, *even Agamben can't save the "Lockdown the left" from the above. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 3/19/20 1:15 PM, RKOB via Marxism wrote: We think that the main line of struggle against the COVID-19 epidemic should be a massive expansion of the health care system in order to do mass and free testing, to care about those infected, hospitalize those who need it, etc. Clearly this needs mass pressure, mass actions etc to force the ruling class to do this, to force the capitalists to pay for it, etc. Look, not everybody is anxious to organize leftist protests. In fact, in the USA, as opposed to Algeria, protests are far and few between. However, unless the city and the state began to intervene to control mass gatherings, the pandemic would spread faster than an Australian brush fire. Just the other day, the Hasidic sects in Brooklyn ignored the orders against gatherings of more than 50 people. A couple of weddings have resulted in the creation of hot zones that endanger the lives of many people who had not been invited to the wedding. I don't live near any Hasidic sect members in the UES of Manhattan but I am all for crowd control to minimize the threat of people getting sick, including me. Yes, I know that this hurts worthy causes. I reviewed a film festival last Friday for Counterpunch dedicated to worth causes but it was cancelled the day the article appeared. Yes, it would have been great for a hundred people or so to see a film about Australian aboriginals fighting mining companies but not if it risked them getting sick. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Look, it's been very chilly around here and nobody appreciates the hot air more. I get it, you want a massive expansion of the health care system unlike the reformists. And you suggest mass actions to do this. But your BS about "the Lockdown Left" chases a discussion that wasn't taking place into a rhetorical swamp, intoxicates itself with the fumes of own abstractions, and falls face first into the mud. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Look, it really should not be so difficult to understand. We think that the main line of struggle against the COVID-19 epidemic should be a massive expansion of the health care system in order to do mass and free testing, to care about those infected, hospitalize those who need it, etc. Clearly this needs mass pressure, mass actions etc to force the ruling class to do this, to force the capitalists to pay for it, etc. The response from the ruling classes, in general, is different: their first line of defense is militarization. This is the policy from the regimes in Beijing, Paris, Madrid, Rome, Vienna, and soon other countries too: Lock the people up, restrict freedom of movement, surveillance, etc. Of course they support also some forms of health care but much less, more expansive, with less and costly testing, etc. Surely this extreme state of emergency can not go on forever as it is bad for the economy. But they need some time now to implement a new form of state bonaparist regime with less democratic rights (in those countries where such exist). After they have implemented the most important draconic measures they will relax some conditions with some normalization of social life. But they will certainly try to retain a number of these militarization measures. The reformist bureaucracy fully supports the militarization policy (see e.g. Podemos in Spain’s government). The radical left is divided. Surely they all support the expansion of the health care sector etc. But the Lockdown Left supports also the militarization, i.e. the most important anti-democratic attack today. This is the dividing line today. Am 19.03.2020 um 16:26 schrieb Tristan Sloughter via Marxism: POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * It was never my intention to push anyone to go on the street. Every one shall be free to stay home. People who want to lock themselves up should do so. Sounding like a anti-vaxxer now. Everyone needs to distance or it doesn't work! This virus has shown to be more contagious, live longer on surfaces and the air and be more deadly (many of those hospitalized are in their 20s and 30s and lose lung capacity). China appears to have gotten over the hump, the idea that we shouldn't do the same is ridiculous, not to mention the same selfishness of not vaccinating involved in thinking its ok for those who don't want to stay inside to go out and risk everyone else's health. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/aktiv%40rkob.net -- Revolutionär-Kommunistische Organisation BEFREIUNG (Österreichische Sektion der RCIT, www.thecommunists.net) www.rkob.net ak...@rkob.net Tel./SMS/WhatsApp/Telegram: +43-650-4068314 -- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * > It was never my intention to push anyone to go on the street. Every one > shall be free to stay home. People who want to lock themselves up should > do so. Sounding like a anti-vaxxer now. Everyone needs to distance or it doesn't work! This virus has shown to be more contagious, live longer on surfaces and the air and be more deadly (many of those hospitalized are in their 20s and 30s and lose lung capacity). China appears to have gotten over the hump, the idea that we shouldn't do the same is ridiculous, not to mention the same selfishness of not vaccinating involved in thinking its ok for those who don't want to stay inside to go out and risk everyone else's health. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I certainly accept that several comrades participating in this discussion (mostly living in North America) have a different point of view. I am also aware that the pressure of the public opinion is currently extremely strong. Many modern Marxists have looked with ridicule to the European social democrats who wavered in summer 1914. But they could not imagine the immense pressure of public opinion which existed at that time (and which was shared and supported, by the way, by most scientists). As a result, many of the left (who have a radical point of view about … what should have been done in 1914 when they were not born) share the idea today that this time really we should accept being imprisoned at home and not fight against the ruling class. This time, the rulers surely will not lie because they also want to fight the pandemic. “But many scientists support this!” Is it really the case that scientists are above classes and class interests? Is it really the case that all scientists support mass lock down? Well, everyone with some interest in the issue can see that this is not the case. I for my side listen to my comrades with medical knowledge. And, fortunately, I have also the chance to hear about the political discussions from my comrades in very different countries – from South Korea to Mexico and from Britain to Kenya. This allows me having a better understanding about global discussions (and not only those in the imperialist West). It was never my intention to push anyone to go on the street. Every one shall be free to stay home. People who want to lock themselves up should do so. It is just annoying to hear self-proclaimed Marxists supporting the measures of the ruling class to forbid anyone to fight on the streets as it happened until very recently in France, Chile, and many other countries. And all this at a moment when a new 1929 takes place before our eyes! (And is it really accidental that the bourgeoisie imposes these measures at exactly the same time as we have a new 1929?! Is no one suspicious about the timing?! And this from people who consider themselves as intellectuals and academics!) Allow me to predict that the bourgeoisie will say for quite some time that there should be no mass demonstrations. Surely, only for health risks reason. And, guess what, there will be a number of scientists who will support this. Guess who pays them?! And during all this time, when we are locked up for weeks and months, they will advance their counter-revolutionary agenda (from austerity to surveillance etc.) So when will you support mass actions again? Probably when most of the left will do so. Because than it would be not “sectarian” to call for this. And when will the left call for mass action? Probably when Sanders, Corbyn etc. think it is OK. Because than it would be not “sectarian” for them to call for this. And when will Sanders and Corbyn …. Finally, the South Koreans demonstrated that it is possible to fight the COVID-19 epidemic with mass and free testing, with free health care, with basic rules for hygiene but without mass lock down. I am sure that the virus in South Korea is not less aggressive and transmittable than in the U.S.! South Korea succeeded in this DESPITE a reactionary evangelic cult which (deliberately or reckless) spread the virus as much as possible. The acts of such a criminal cult made it even more difficult for South Korea to fight the epidemic (the cult leader, a self-proclaimed brother of Jesus, told his supporters not to cooperate with the health service and not to tell them where they had been, i.e. whom they might have infected). Why do comrades still claim that the reactionary lock down policy is TINA (“There Is No Alternative”)? If comrades support the lock down policy, they should at least not also lock down their brain! Am 18.03.2020 um 23:10 schrieb Tristan Sloughter via Marxism: POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I do trust science. I trust doctors on epidemics . . . the same way I trust environmentalists on the climate. Why would we not? Most of us know enough to understand whether these things make sense or not. This ^. Not only that, but we have comrades working in medical services. If we are able to flatten the curve and in the coming weeks or months so the health care system isn't stressed to a
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * You are talking about a few hundred people assembling to lodge protest. But look, in India, more than 500 camps are active, with each having thousands of women protesting the discriminatory Citizenship Bill, as it is discriminatory against non-Hindus. And protesters are Hindus, Muslims and Sikh women and youth. Even with official restrictions on assembly of people, the protests continue. But at some places, the protesters are keeping children at home, wear protective masks and keep one meter distance from each other. But they are determined to continue protests. But if the pandemic spreads, they may give a break. Before the Corona Virus scare started in India, in the state of Bihar (population 100 million), Dr. Kanhaiya Kumar, a young communist leader had toured the state addressing massive rallies and it is reported that more than 5 million have attended his month long rallies against the Citizenship Bill. The Modi government is so scared that they have taken a four year old sedition case clamped against him while he was a student. They never expected that a communist could get so popular. Vijaya Kumar M _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * > I do trust science. I trust doctors on epidemics . . . the same way I > trust environmentalists on the climate. Why would we not? Most of us know > enough to understand whether these things make sense or not. This ^. Not only that, but we have comrades working in medical services. If we are able to flatten the curve and in the coming weeks or months so the health care system isn't stressed to a breaking point we should rely on those comrades to discuss appropriate measures for if/how mass actions can be handled. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * > Anyway, I can not imagine how the health care system should improve > without mass protests?! Online petitions are usually not particularly > successful on such issues. At this time mass street protests ultimately means further overwhelming the hospital system more than it is already going to be, causing more death and despair. There have already been cases of strikes in Spain, and we may see similar in the US with workers not being properly protected and refusing to work until they are. We must extend solidarity to those workers without making the situation worse. Exacerbating a public health crisis is not going to help build a mass worker movement. Tristan _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I didn't suggest online petitions and, no, I don't suggest that we start trusting the capitalist state. I do trust science. I trust doctors on epidemics . . . the same way I trust environmentalists on the climate. Why would we not? Most of us know enough to understand whether these things make sense or not. And here's the thing about conspiracies. When there actually are conspiracies (and sometimes when there aren't), somebody starts blowing the whistle on it. No group of serious scientists say that global warming is anything other than real. It's no less real when its discussed on the bourgeois media or by members of the bourgeois state. Too, no group of serious medical professionals are saying that these precautions against the pandemic are excessive. Considering that these precautions are also playing merry hell with the economy, it's a fair bet that the capitalists aren't playing with some new means to annoy us. The point is that here--or in Italy or in Spain--these restrictions are being imposed as temporary measures. Are there dangers? There are always dangers when you deal with these people, so we should stay cautious and watch their every move. I suspect, for example, that there's going to be a serious effort to normalize some of what they've slipped into education--particularly the shift to online routines. When this is behind us, there will be major efforts to impose these more generally, and this will have to be fought. But how and where we can best fight them should depend on where we can best mobilize and deploy our forces. Cheers, Mark L. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Chris Slee wrote Are there any alternative forms of struggle? Not necessarily an alternative but a possible example would be the photo depicted online yesterday of voters arranging themselves at an appropriate distance in the open air outside a precinct so that they were unlikely to expose each other even to an airborne virus. With adequate advice and monitoring in a mass protest, why not? -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * May be I am too suspicious but my impression is that the capitalists are using now the COVID-19 crisis to sack hundreds of thousands if not millions of people and to cut wages. At least this is what has is happening just now in Europe. I don't believe the US capitalists are better. How do you want to fights against this under the conditions of mass lock down? And, again I might be too suspicious, but all the reports about the massive expansion of the survaillance and police state might be also difficult to stop without mass protests. Obviously people from risk groups might prefer not to participate in such street protests in such times. But shall all people now refrain from fighting for their rights?! And for how long shall we let work the capitalist state without interference from the people? Or do you think we Marxists have been too critical about the capitalist state in the past and this time, at the COVID-19 crisis, we should trust it and accept that it takes much more powers than it did until now? I don't think so. Anyway, I can not imagine how the health care system should improve without mass protests?! Online petitions are usually not particularly successful on such issues. Am 18.03.2020 um 20:54 schrieb Mark Lause: Sorry, I thought my reference to the election made it clear that I was generally talking about the United States. Howver the warnings about concentrations of large numbers of people remains valid under these conditions. Simply because the capitalist media may say that the sky is blue doesn't mean that it's pink with Orange polka dots. On Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 3:20 PM RKOB via Marxism mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>> wrote: POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I do not agree with you in 2 points: 1) there has been indeed a global wave of mass protests since mid-2019 not seen since many decades. This has been even recognized by a recently published study of a bourgeois think-tank. We have reported about this in an article (https://www.thecommunists.net/worldwide/global/confirmation-of-revolutionary-character-of-historic-period/) The current counter-revolutionary offensive using the COVID-19 crisis as cover is a strike against this global wave of popular uprisings. 2) Mass lock down of millions of people and suppressing democratic rights like demonstrating and assembling helps the ruling class, not the oppressed. It also does not help in itself to contain the COVID-19 pandemic. Look to Italy where you have a lock down and people die. South Korea has mass testing, free healt care and and a good health carse system. This why it managed the crisis without mass lock down. Trusting the capitalist state and its propaganda is never a good guide! Am 18.03.2020 um 12:37 schrieb Mark Lause via Marxism: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > I apologize if I'm repeating points already made in the discussion but it's > important that they "take" . . . . > > It is the nature of epidemics like this that people who don't have symptoms > spread the disease, and this is much worse than other examples because the > symptoms seem to hit people differently. A large number of people are said > to have already had it and shaken it off in a few days, while it can be > fatal for a significant minority of those who get it. Gathering in large > numbers spreads the virus quicker. Not doing this is to avoid crashing the > resources of an ill-prepared health care system, including the people > needed to run it. > > Beyond these obvious medical realities, this pandemic is not only slamming > us, but it's starting to pull down their economy, bit by bit, and I heard > one of the talking heads on the idiot box are discussing the possibility of > coming out of this with an unemployment rate of 20% (and they're thinking > in government figures).
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Sorry, I thought my reference to the election made it clear that I was generally talking about the United States. Howver the warnings about concentrations of large numbers of people remains valid under these conditions. Simply because the capitalist media may say that the sky is blue doesn't mean that it's pink with Orange polka dots. On Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 3:20 PM RKOB via Marxism wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > I do not agree with you in 2 points: > > 1) there has been indeed a global wave of mass protests since mid-2019 > not seen since many decades. This has been even recognized by a recently > published study of a bourgeois think-tank. We have reported about this > in an article > ( > https://www.thecommunists.net/worldwide/global/confirmation-of-revolutionary-character-of-historic-period/) > > The current counter-revolutionary offensive using the COVID-19 crisis as > cover is a strike against this global wave of popular uprisings. > > 2) Mass lock down of millions of people and suppressing democratic > rights like demonstrating and assembling helps the ruling class, not the > oppressed. It also does not help in itself to contain the COVID-19 > pandemic. Look to Italy where you have a lock down and people die. South > Korea has mass testing, free healt care and and a good health carse > system. This why it managed the crisis without mass lock down. > > Trusting the capitalist state and its propaganda is never a good guide! > > Am 18.03.2020 um 12:37 schrieb Mark Lause via Marxism: > > POSTING RULES & NOTES > > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > > * > > > > I apologize if I'm repeating points already made in the discussion but > it's > > important that they "take" . . . . > > > > It is the nature of epidemics like this that people who don't have > symptoms > > spread the disease, and this is much worse than other examples because > the > > symptoms seem to hit people differently. A large number of people are > said > > to have already had it and shaken it off in a few days, while it can be > > fatal for a significant minority of those who get it. Gathering in large > > numbers spreads the virus quicker. Not doing this is to avoid crashing > the > > resources of an ill-prepared health care system, including the people > > needed to run it. > > > > Beyond these obvious medical realities, this pandemic is not only > slamming > > us, but it's starting to pull down their economy, bit by bit, and I heard > > one of the talking heads on the idiot box are discussing the possibility > of > > coming out of this with an unemployment rate of 20% (and they're thinking > > in government figures). > > > > When I look out on the absence of mass demonstrations in the streets > today, > > it looks precisely like the absence of mass demonstrations in the streets > > before the pandemic hit. There are other reasons we don't have large > > numbers in the street than the distancing brought on by the pandemic. > > > > Building a movement is part of a process. Take this time of isolation to > > read a book and discuss it online. And/or hold online classes. Make and > > retain contacts for the future. There's much productive to be done in > the > > here and now that will be useful in the future, particularly with a work > > force that will be wiser, angrier, and hopefully more ready to take to > the > > streets.. > > > > What will not be useful at this point is getting those willing to gather > in > > large groups disproportionately infected or putting them in a position to > > get their family, friends and coworkers sick. > > > > Solidarity, > > Mark L. > > _ > > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/aktiv%40rkob.net > > -- > Revolutionär-Kommunistische Organisation BEFREIUNG > (Österreichische Sektion der RCIT, www.thecommunists.net) > www.rkob.net > ak...@rkob.net > Tel./SMS/WhatsApp/Telegram: +43-650-4068314 > > > > -- > Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I do not agree with you in 2 points: 1) there has been indeed a global wave of mass protests since mid-2019 not seen since many decades. This has been even recognized by a recently published study of a bourgeois think-tank. We have reported about this in an article (https://www.thecommunists.net/worldwide/global/confirmation-of-revolutionary-character-of-historic-period/) The current counter-revolutionary offensive using the COVID-19 crisis as cover is a strike against this global wave of popular uprisings. 2) Mass lock down of millions of people and suppressing democratic rights like demonstrating and assembling helps the ruling class, not the oppressed. It also does not help in itself to contain the COVID-19 pandemic. Look to Italy where you have a lock down and people die. South Korea has mass testing, free healt care and and a good health carse system. This why it managed the crisis without mass lock down. Trusting the capitalist state and its propaganda is never a good guide! Am 18.03.2020 um 12:37 schrieb Mark Lause via Marxism: POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I apologize if I'm repeating points already made in the discussion but it's important that they "take" . . . . It is the nature of epidemics like this that people who don't have symptoms spread the disease, and this is much worse than other examples because the symptoms seem to hit people differently. A large number of people are said to have already had it and shaken it off in a few days, while it can be fatal for a significant minority of those who get it. Gathering in large numbers spreads the virus quicker. Not doing this is to avoid crashing the resources of an ill-prepared health care system, including the people needed to run it. Beyond these obvious medical realities, this pandemic is not only slamming us, but it's starting to pull down their economy, bit by bit, and I heard one of the talking heads on the idiot box are discussing the possibility of coming out of this with an unemployment rate of 20% (and they're thinking in government figures). When I look out on the absence of mass demonstrations in the streets today, it looks precisely like the absence of mass demonstrations in the streets before the pandemic hit. There are other reasons we don't have large numbers in the street than the distancing brought on by the pandemic. Building a movement is part of a process. Take this time of isolation to read a book and discuss it online. And/or hold online classes. Make and retain contacts for the future. There's much productive to be done in the here and now that will be useful in the future, particularly with a work force that will be wiser, angrier, and hopefully more ready to take to the streets.. What will not be useful at this point is getting those willing to gather in large groups disproportionately infected or putting them in a position to get their family, friends and coworkers sick. Solidarity, Mark L. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/aktiv%40rkob.net -- Revolutionär-Kommunistische Organisation BEFREIUNG (Österreichische Sektion der RCIT, www.thecommunists.net) www.rkob.net ak...@rkob.net Tel./SMS/WhatsApp/Telegram: +43-650-4068314 -- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I apologize if I'm repeating points already made in the discussion but it's important that they "take" . . . . It is the nature of epidemics like this that people who don't have symptoms spread the disease, and this is much worse than other examples because the symptoms seem to hit people differently. A large number of people are said to have already had it and shaken it off in a few days, while it can be fatal for a significant minority of those who get it. Gathering in large numbers spreads the virus quicker. Not doing this is to avoid crashing the resources of an ill-prepared health care system, including the people needed to run it. Beyond these obvious medical realities, this pandemic is not only slamming us, but it's starting to pull down their economy, bit by bit, and I heard one of the talking heads on the idiot box are discussing the possibility of coming out of this with an unemployment rate of 20% (and they're thinking in government figures). When I look out on the absence of mass demonstrations in the streets today, it looks precisely like the absence of mass demonstrations in the streets before the pandemic hit. There are other reasons we don't have large numbers in the street than the distancing brought on by the pandemic. Building a movement is part of a process. Take this time of isolation to read a book and discuss it online. And/or hold online classes. Make and retain contacts for the future. There's much productive to be done in the here and now that will be useful in the future, particularly with a work force that will be wiser, angrier, and hopefully more ready to take to the streets.. What will not be useful at this point is getting those willing to gather in large groups disproportionately infected or putting them in a position to get their family, friends and coworkers sick. Solidarity, Mark L. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * I agree that policies adopted by governments in response to the coronavirus will have an adverse effect on popular struggles. In Australia, planned nationwide demonstrations for refugee rights on April 5 have been called off (at least in Melbourne and Brisbane, and probably elsewhere). An atomised population, staying at home and not taking any collective action, is ideal for authoritarian governments. It is uncertain how long this situation will continue. Some reports have said it will take a year or two to develop a vaccine. Will there be no demonstrations or mass meetings for two years? Is such a ban actually necessary to prevent the spread of the the virus. Would it be sufficient to urge people not to come if they are sick or in close contact with a sick person, and not to have physical contact with other people they meet at the event, e.g. shaking hands? Are there any alternative forms of struggle? Chris Slee From: Marxism on behalf of RKOB via Marxism Sent: Tuesday, 17 March 2020 11:56:38 PM To: Chris Slee Cc: RKOB Subject: Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Dear Louis, you might have misunderstood want I meant (or I expressed myself badly). 1) Obviously no one should feel obligated to go on the streets. Everyone should be free to stay home. It is necessary to employ a service for people who stay at home. Naturally, we are also in favour of quarantin meassures for people who are infected (in addition to mass and free testing etc.). 2) In general it is important to take precautions on health issues. But this has been also the case in all the last years when there were influenza epidemic. As you certainly know this has also caused many vicitims. (152,000 in Europe in the saison 2017/18 alone) Did anyone call for a mass lockdown at that time? Of course, not! 3) How shall we fight for a better health care system? By staying home? Hardly! No, by mass actions. For this people (those without health risks) need to gon on the streets. 4) Finally, do you really think the rulers in China, Europe, etc. impose mass lockdowns and ban demonstrations because they are concerned about health? If so, why did they not do it in all the years before when influenza struck?! Don't you think that there is a connection between the policy of mass lockdown, the current economic slump (which is of 1929-33 proportions) and the fact that the world has seen the largest rise of mass protests in 2019 - at least since 1945?! (See for this our article on a new study: https://www.thecommunists.net/worldwide/global/confirmation-of-revolutionary-character-of-historic-period/) Please be assured that I wish you a long life! Am 17.03.2020 um 13:04 schrieb Louis Proyect via Marxism: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > On 3/17/20 7:34 AM, RKOB via Marxism wrote: >> >> >> In short, South Korea has certainly dealt best with the crisis and >> without a mass lock down. Mass and free testing and health care is >> crucial. > > Well, this is not South Korea here in NYC. I am fucking 75 years old > and had bronchitis lasting a month last October. If it was up to me, > there would be a strict curfew after 8pm. The rules being enforced > right now are not an impediment to workers militias or a general > strike. Instead, it is the backwardness of the working-class. Maybe > the economic collapse and the realization that pandemics are a product > of capitalist contradictions will change that but in the meantime, I > want to live and write until I croak about 10 years from > now--hopefully in my sleep. > > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/aktiv%40rkob.net -- Revolutionär-Kommunistische Organisation BEFREIUNG (Österreichische Sektion der RCIT,
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 3/17/20 8:56 AM, RKOB via Marxism wrote: 1) Obviously no one should feel obligated to go on the streets. Everyone should be free to stay home. It is necessary to employ a service for people who stay at home. Naturally, we are also in favour of quarantin meassures for people who are infected (in addition to mass and free testing etc.). Have you actually been reading about why schools and pubs are being closed? Young people have no idea whether they are "infected" or not unless they take a test. For the majority, they experience no symptoms for up to five days even if they are contagious. Within that period, they can come into contact with many other people, including me. I am glad that you are in favor of quarantine measures of infected people, but if I get infected, I will probably die. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Dear Louis, you might have misunderstood want I meant (or I expressed myself badly). 1) Obviously no one should feel obligated to go on the streets. Everyone should be free to stay home. It is necessary to employ a service for people who stay at home. Naturally, we are also in favour of quarantin meassures for people who are infected (in addition to mass and free testing etc.). 2) In general it is important to take precautions on health issues. But this has been also the case in all the last years when there were influenza epidemic. As you certainly know this has also caused many vicitims. (152,000 in Europe in the saison 2017/18 alone) Did anyone call for a mass lockdown at that time? Of course, not! 3) How shall we fight for a better health care system? By staying home? Hardly! No, by mass actions. For this people (those without health risks) need to gon on the streets. 4) Finally, do you really think the rulers in China, Europe, etc. impose mass lockdowns and ban demonstrations because they are concerned about health? If so, why did they not do it in all the years before when influenza struck?! Don't you think that there is a connection between the policy of mass lockdown, the current economic slump (which is of 1929-33 proportions) and the fact that the world has seen the largest rise of mass protests in 2019 - at least since 1945?! (See for this our article on a new study: https://www.thecommunists.net/worldwide/global/confirmation-of-revolutionary-character-of-historic-period/) Please be assured that I wish you a long life! Am 17.03.2020 um 13:04 schrieb Louis Proyect via Marxism: POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 3/17/20 7:34 AM, RKOB via Marxism wrote: In short, South Korea has certainly dealt best with the crisis and without a mass lock down. Mass and free testing and health care is crucial. Well, this is not South Korea here in NYC. I am fucking 75 years old and had bronchitis lasting a month last October. If it was up to me, there would be a strict curfew after 8pm. The rules being enforced right now are not an impediment to workers militias or a general strike. Instead, it is the backwardness of the working-class. Maybe the economic collapse and the realization that pandemics are a product of capitalist contradictions will change that but in the meantime, I want to live and write until I croak about 10 years from now--hopefully in my sleep. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/aktiv%40rkob.net -- Revolutionär-Kommunistische Organisation BEFREIUNG (Österreichische Sektion der RCIT, www.thecommunists.net) www.rkob.net ak...@rkob.net Tel./SMS/WhatsApp/Telegram: +43-650-4068314 -- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 3/17/20 7:34 AM, RKOB via Marxism wrote: In short, South Korea has certainly dealt best with the crisis and without a mass lock down. Mass and free testing and health care is crucial. Well, this is not South Korea here in NYC. I am fucking 75 years old and had bronchitis lasting a month last October. If it was up to me, there would be a strict curfew after 8pm. The rules being enforced right now are not an impediment to workers militias or a general strike. Instead, it is the backwardness of the working-class. Maybe the economic collapse and the realization that pandemics are a product of capitalist contradictions will change that but in the meantime, I want to live and write until I croak about 10 years from now--hopefully in my sleep. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Thanks, will send over some SA material. Your collection is fabulous, I'll let comrades here know! On 3/17/2020 1:34 PM, RKOB via Marxism wrote: POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * First, I have to say that I am not sufficiently informed about the situation in South Africa. In general, for our analysis and perspective on the COVID-19 crisis I refer to the numerous documents which are collected on a special page: https://www.thecommunists.net/worldwide/global/collection-of-articles-on-the-2019-corona-virus/ In short, South Korea has certainly dealt best with the crisis and without a mass lock down. Mass and free testing and health care is crucial. I also want to point out that militant sectors of the working class and youth don’t accept the bourgeois atomization approach (i.e. “social distancing”). The French Yellow Vests and the Chilean protestors both demonstrated (and clashed with the police) in the last days despite the government forbidding this - using the COVID-19 as a pretext. Am 17.03.2020 um 12:04 schrieb Patrick Bond: On 3/17/2020 11:46 AM, RKOB via Marxism wrote: Comrades, allow me to take this opportunity to say something on this whole "social distancing" ideology. The title say: "If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need ..." I understand that sectors of the rulering class want people to stay home and to forbid mass assemblies. We saw this in China and now in Europe (incl. the country where I am living, Austria). I also understand that sectors of the masses - terrorized and confused by the neverending media propaganda - share this. Well, to slow the spread until medical interventions and state support systems are in place, perhaps "personal distancing plus social solidarity" to emphasise mutual aid? If anyone wants a collection of critical ideas, let me know, as they exceed 35k limits here. I have statements of demand from working-class and social/health-movement activists from all over the world. An example from here in South Africa is from the SA Federations of Trade Unions: http://saftu.org.za/protect-us-and-we-will-protect-each-other-saftu-call-on-ramaphosa-governmentthe-war-against-covid-19-must-be-fully-engaged-with-working-class-support/ Here is a strong statement - at 1.30' for about 13 minutes - from SAFTU leader Zwelinzima Vavi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meWFTExJmwc (following the SA president's statement) Please send me material we can circulate here to avoid the mere medicalization of Covid-19, and instead deepen our class, gender, race and ecological perspectives. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] "personal distancing plus social solidarity" Re: Fwd: [pen-l] If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need deep change to make that possible
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * First, I have to say that I am not sufficiently informed about the situation in South Africa. In general, for our analysis and perspective on the COVID-19 crisis I refer to the numerous documents which are collected on a special page: https://www.thecommunists.net/worldwide/global/collection-of-articles-on-the-2019-corona-virus/ In short, South Korea has certainly dealt best with the crisis and without a mass lock down. Mass and free testing and health care is crucial. I also want to point out that militant sectors of the working class and youth don’t accept the bourgeois atomization approach (i.e. “social distancing”). The French Yellow Vests and the Chilean protestors both demonstrated (and clashed with the police) in the last days despite the government forbidding this - using the COVID-19 as a pretext. Am 17.03.2020 um 12:04 schrieb Patrick Bond: On 3/17/2020 11:46 AM, RKOB via Marxism wrote: Comrades, allow me to take this opportunity to say something on this whole "social distancing" ideology. The title say: "If we want everyone to stay home during a coronavirus crisis, we need ..." I understand that sectors of the rulering class want people to stay home and to forbid mass assemblies. We saw this in China and now in Europe (incl. the country where I am living, Austria). I also understand that sectors of the masses - terrorized and confused by the neverending media propaganda - share this. Well, to slow the spread until medical interventions and state support systems are in place, perhaps "personal distancing plus social solidarity" to emphasise mutual aid? If anyone wants a collection of critical ideas, let me know, as they exceed 35k limits here. I have statements of demand from working-class and social/health-movement activists from all over the world. An example from here in South Africa is from the SA Federations of Trade Unions: http://saftu.org.za/protect-us-and-we-will-protect-each-other-saftu-call-on-ramaphosa-governmentthe-war-against-covid-19-must-be-fully-engaged-with-working-class-support/ Here is a strong statement - at 1.30' for about 13 minutes - from SAFTU leader Zwelinzima Vavi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meWFTExJmwc (following the SA president's statement) Please send me material we can circulate here to avoid the mere medicalization of Covid-19, and instead deepen our class, gender, race and ecological perspectives. -- Revolutionär-Kommunistische Organisation BEFREIUNG (Österreichische Sektion der RCIT, www.thecommunists.net) www.rkob.net ak...@rkob.net Tel./SMS/WhatsApp/Telegram: +43-650-4068314 -- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: https://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
