Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Western Michigan Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 On Jul 29, 2013, at 03:42 PM, Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 21:06:47 -0500 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: NO! NO! NO! You can't turn the engine over with the starter when timing!!! I have been following this thread agonizing for Michael with the continued frustration of things not working right, over and over and over. Now, however, we have definitive proof that his mechanic has not the first clue about timing a Benz injection pump. If I were closer I would come and do it for him BTW, Michael, where are you located? On the east coast someplace as I recall. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
That is my next step. Thanks, mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 On Jul 29, 2013, at 04:45 PM, G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com wrote: First question, I believe, is still not answered. That is the question, Is this pump in good serviceable condition? Before spending any more time with timing, I would suggest that question be answered with a bench test at a reliable diesel shop with a working IP flow bench and specs for the Benz pump. Then.. time it from scratch. At this point.. with all the changes made by the Indy.. who knows where it is for timing? Just my $0.02 worth.. Grant... On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 21:06:47 -0500 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: NO! NO! NO! You can't turn the engine over with the starter when timing!!! I have been following this thread agonizing for Michael with the continued frustration of things not working right, over and over and over. Now, however, we have definitive proof that his mechanic has not the first clue about timing a Benz injection pump. If I were closer I would come and do it for him BTW, Michael, where are you located? On the east coast someplace as I recall. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
My next step is to get one of the pumps that we have tried tested by Bosch Service Center. If it checks out, I try the install myself. If it is junk I buy rebuilt and have them put it in. Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 On Jul 29, 2013, at 06:07 PM, Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:57:11 -0600 Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: I agree with Randy. We know it's out of time now. Why not take the less-expensive route and see if it runs when correctly timed? Then if it doesn't work (oops) you can try another pump, and maybe the third pump as well. It may be that one of the pumps works just fine and you don't need to spend the money to have a pump checked out. If none of them work, you can then pick one and send it out to be tested and, if necessary, repaired. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Mike, I suggest you try the install yourself before spending money on a pump. Your mechanic has proven he doesn't know what he is doing. You can do a better job yourself with the help of the listers who have already told you how to do it with basic tools and knowhow. If you can follow instructions precisely then you can do the job and end your frustrations. Mike On Jul 30, 2013 10:12 AM, Mike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: My next step is to get one of the pumps that we have tried tested by Bosch Service Center. If it checks out, I try the install myself. If it is junk I buy rebuilt and have them put it in. Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/**138123http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 On Jul 29, 2013, at 06:07 PM, Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:57:11 -0600 Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: I agree with Randy. We know it's out of time now. Why not take the less-expensive route and see if it runs when correctly timed? Then if it doesn't work (oops) you can try another pump, and maybe the third pump as well. It may be that one of the pumps works just fine and you don't need to spend the money to have a pump checked out. If none of them work, you can then pick one and send it out to be tested and, if necessary, repaired. Craig __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his supplier in California for $600. Is $600.00 for new pump realistic? I thought it would be much more. Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Mike, Unless you just want to throw money at it, first check the timing of the currently installed IP. It is not hard and costs next to nothing. You have the instructions. The hardest part is removing the valve cover and I think you can even skip that if you can see the #1 cylinder valves well enough through the oil fill hole (I have a 617, not 616 so I'm not sure about this on a 616). You do need to remove the #1 injector line but that's easy. Do the fuel welling up test first, that doesn't require the drip tool or removing the delivery valve. You can make a drip tool from an old piece of injector pipe or buy one pretty cheap to do the more precise drip or the bubble method (just like drip but with air). It will cost a few $$ to run an IP through a real test stand at a good Diesel shop and it will cost more to get a reman IP (which could also be faulty). The fact that two good when removed replacement IPs produced the same result implies that your problem is not the actual IP. Scott -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mike Esh Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:44 AM To: Okie Benz Subject: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his supplier in California for $600?. Is $600.00 for new pump realistic? I thought it would be much more. Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Garage guy does not know you need a new pump. He is not doing the job right and expects you to throw money at a new pump for him to not time right. I am not trying to be a jackass but when are you going to wise up and tell this guy you are through with him wasting your time and money? Mike On Jul 30, 2013 11:43 AM, Mike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his supplier in California for $600. Is $600.00 for new pump realistic? I thought it would be much more. Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/**138123http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
$1400+ from Keenan for one for my 350D. Wilton - Original Message - From: Mike Esh michael...@mac.com To: Okie Benz mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:43 AM Subject: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his supplier in California for $600. Is $600.00 for new pump realistic? I thought it would be much more. Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Mike, back in the day, these IPs were famous for longevity. In fact, used IPs were dirt cheap because nobody needed them. Now, with ULSD and WVO, that may no longer be the case but it's unlikely that a used IP from a reliable source would be bad. Still, I think you will be better served by testing your spare IP than getting a remam (of unknown provenance). I don't know your mechanical skill or experience. But (if it were me) I would be dubious about going another round with your current mechanic/shop. No aspersions on the mechanic, per se, but he seems to lack experience with mechanical inline diesel injection systems. If somebody has to learn this stuff the hard way (trial and error), it may as well be you. Scott -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mike Esh Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 10:13 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. My next step is to get one of the pumps that we have tried tested by Bosch Service Center. If it checks out, I try the install myself. If it is junk I buy rebuilt and have them put it in. Mike? Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 On Jul 29, 2013, at 06:07 PM, Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:57:11 -0600 Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: I agree with Randy. We know it's out of time now. Why not take the less-expensive route and see if it runs when correctly timed? Then if it doesn't work (oops) you can try another pump, and maybe the third pump as well. It may be that one of the pumps works just fine and you don't need to spend the money to have a pump checked out. If none of them work, you can then pick one and send it out to be tested and, if necessary, repaired. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Conestoga Diesel Injection 1321 Byerland church Rd. Willow Street PA, 17584-9776 Hours: Monday through Friday 8:00AM to 5:00PM Phone 717-806-5561 FAX 717-806-5572 Again, call Mel, the owner, and tell him what you have for a pump, ask him to BENCH CHECK THE PUMP ONLY, and give you are report. You will spend less time and money knowing you have a KNOWN GOOD PUMP to start with than you will farting around paying the Indy to try different timing methods. I have known Mel since 2007 through another diesel board [Ford IDI Trucks]. He has a well earned reputation of excellent customer service and straight up dealing. If it's good, he will tell you, if it's bad, he will tell you. If you call him he will quote you a bench test shop rate up front. He is east of Mississippi so shipping should be short and cheap. You are obviously not driving the car till it's sorted.. what's a couple days to know for sure what you have? Start from a solid foundation of knowing the IP is serviceable, THEN sort out what ever timing or injector issues you have. Grant... Who has been doing this kind of stuff for a few decades.. successfully. On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: Mike, back in the day, these IPs were famous for longevity. In fact, used IPs were dirt cheap because nobody needed them. Now, with ULSD and WVO, that may no longer be the case but it's unlikely that a used IP from a reliable source would be bad. Still, I think you will be better served by testing your spare IP than getting a remam (of unknown provenance). I don't know your mechanical skill or experience. But (if it were me) I would be dubious about going another round with your current mechanic/shop. No aspersions on the mechanic, per se, but he seems to lack experience with mechanical inline diesel injection systems. If somebody has to learn this stuff the hard way (trial and error), it may as well be you. Scott -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mike Esh Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 10:13 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. My next step is to get one of the pumps that we have tried tested by Bosch Service Center. If it checks out, I try the install myself. If it is junk I buy rebuilt and have them put it in. Mike? Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 On Jul 29, 2013, at 06:07 PM, Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:57:11 -0600 Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: I agree with Randy. We know it's out of time now. Why not take the less-expensive route and see if it runs when correctly timed? Then if it doesn't work (oops) you can try another pump, and maybe the third pump as well. It may be that one of the pumps works just fine and you don't need to spend the money to have a pump checked out. If none of them work, you can then pick one and send it out to be tested and, if necessary, repaired. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
New to you? Or OEM NOS? Rick Knoble Sent from My Samsung tabletMike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote:Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his supplier in California for $600. Is $600.00 for new pump realistic? I thought it would be much more. Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
OEM NOS. Michael E. Esh 231-286-2344 On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:24 PM, rickknoble rickkno...@hotmail.com wrote: New to you? Or OEM NOS? Rick Knoble Sent from My Samsung tabletMike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote:Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his supplier in California for $600. Is $600.00 for new pump realistic? I thought it would be much more. Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Don't you have three pumps now, with one in the car? If you're going to send one off to be bench tested, send two. If the first one they test is OK, don't test the second one, just ship it back, or sell it at core value (if there is any) to them. Might have time if the first one it not good. My two cents worth . . . I think Grant has the right approach. On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 12:24 PM, G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com wrote: Conestoga Diesel Injection 1321 Byerland church Rd. Willow Street PA, 17584-9776 Hours: Monday through Friday 8:00AM to 5:00PM Phone 717-806-5561 FAX 717-806-5572 Again, call Mel, the owner, and tell him what you have for a pump, ask him to BENCH CHECK THE PUMP ONLY, and give you are report. You will spend less time and money knowing you have a KNOWN GOOD PUMP to start with than you will farting around paying the Indy to try different timing methods. -- OK Don 2013 F150, 19 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 45 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 14:03:14 -0400 Mike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: OEM NOS. That's a reasonable price, but you do know two things: 1. Your mechanic is stringing you on, wasting your time and money, because he does not know how to time a Benz injection pump. 2. It has not been proven that you do need a new pump. Craig Michael E. Esh 231-286-2344 On Jul 30, 2013, at 1:24 PM, rickknoble rickkno...@hotmail.com wrote: New to you? Or OEM NOS? Rick Knoble Sent from My Samsung tabletMike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote:Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his supplier in California for $600. Is $600.00 for new pump realistic? I thought it would be much more. Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com Craig -- Present:'95 E320Sebastian 117 kmi '94 E420Oskar 127 kmi (awaiting parting out) '82 240D/3.0Bluebell 267 kmi (leaking diesel from somewhere in the engine compartment) Past: '86 190E/2.3 '72 220/8 '64 190Dc Emma '72 220D/8 Herman 186 kmi ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
rickknoble wrote: New to you? Or OEM NOS? I wonder if it's Bosch or the Indian company that made those turbo OM616 clones? $600 is probably half the cost of having a pump rebuilt. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Mitch Haley wrote: rickknoble wrote: New to you? Or OEM NOS? I wonder if it's Bosch or the Indian company that made those turbo OM616 clones? $600 is probably half the cost of having a pump rebuilt. Oops, disregard. Mike said New OEM. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
No way that it s new pump. It cost me $600 to get a OM621 pump rebuilt and tested 30+ years ago. A rebuilt pump for $600 with no core charge is a bargain... if it was done properly. That is the question. Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his supplier in California for $600. Is $600.00 for new pump realistic? I thought it would be much more. Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
I know Mike said new OEM. But $600 sounds awful cheap for a new Bosch IP. A new Doowan (Zexel clone) IP for my 4-cylinder Korean tractor is $1200-1500 and that pump is just the top end of the Mercedes pump (the IP cam is integral to the block). So I'd be inclined to ask a few more questions before going for a new IP. But I'd only consider the new IP after first verifying that the installed IP is in time (not likely) and verifying that the two other IPs on hand are bad. -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Haley Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 3:16 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. Mitch Haley wrote: rickknoble wrote: New to you? Or OEM NOS? I wonder if it's Bosch or the Indian company that made those turbo OM616 clones? $600 is probably half the cost of having a pump rebuilt. Oops, disregard. Mike said New OEM. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
$1400+ for rebuilt, I think, for 350D from Keenan. Wilton - Original Message - From: Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. I know Mike said new OEM. But $600 sounds awful cheap for a new Bosch IP. A new Doowan (Zexel clone) IP for my 4-cylinder Korean tractor is $1200-1500 and that pump is just the top end of the Mercedes pump (the IP cam is integral to the block). So I'd be inclined to ask a few more questions before going for a new IP. But I'd only consider the new IP after first verifying that the installed IP is in time (not likely) and verifying that the two other IPs on hand are bad. -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Haley Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 3:16 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. Mitch Haley wrote: rickknoble wrote: New to you? Or OEM NOS? I wonder if it's Bosch or the Indian company that made those turbo OM616 clones? $600 is probably half the cost of having a pump rebuilt. Oops, disregard. Mike said New OEM. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Williams Diesel down here in Ocala, fl had them for $395 about a year ago. All rebuilt and tested. Manfred Mike Esh wrote: Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his supplier in California for $600. Is $600.00 for new pump realistic? I thought it would be much more. Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
No Sent from my iPhone On Jul 30, 2013, at 10:43 AM, Mike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his supplier in California for $600. Is $600.00 for new pump realistic? I thought it would be much more. Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Speaking of which what is the deal with the sdl? Sent from my iPhone On Jul 30, 2013, at 11:21 AM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: $1400+ from Keenan for one for my 350D. Wilton - Original Message - From: Mike Esh michael...@mac.com To: Okie Benz mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:43 AM Subject: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his supplier in California for $600. Is $600.00 for new pump realistic? I thought it would be much more. Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Awaiting oil analysis report on the 350SDL. Wilton - Original Message - From: Kaleb C. Striplin ka...@striplin.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. Speaking of which what is the deal with the sdl? Sent from my iPhone On Jul 30, 2013, at 11:21 AM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: $1400+ from Keenan for one for my 350D. Wilton - Original Message - From: Mike Esh michael...@mac.com To: Okie Benz mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:43 AM Subject: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his supplier in California for $600. Is $600.00 for new pump realistic? I thought it would be much more. Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 20:01:19 -0400 WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: Awaiting oil analysis report on the 350SDL. We are waiting to hear, too. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
I got my trailer ready to go Sent from my iPhone On Jul 30, 2013, at 7:01 PM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: Awaiting oil analysis report on the 350SDL. Wilton - Original Message - From: Kaleb C. Striplin ka...@striplin.net To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. Speaking of which what is the deal with the sdl? Sent from my iPhone On Jul 30, 2013, at 11:21 AM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: $1400+ from Keenan for one for my 350D. Wilton - Original Message - From: Mike Esh michael...@mac.com To: Okie Benz mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 11:43 AM Subject: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. Latest developments - My garage guy said he can get new pump from his supplier in California for $600. Is $600.00 for new pump realistic? I thought it would be much more. Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 21:23:38 -0500 Kaleb C. Striplin ka...@striplin.net wrote: I got my trailer ready to go The vultures are circling. Here's hoping they get driven away. :-) Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 21:06:47 -0500 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: NO! NO! NO! You can't turn the engine over with the starter when timing!!! I have been following this thread agonizing for Michael with the continued frustration of things not working right, over and over and over. Now, however, we have definitive proof that his mechanic has not the first clue about timing a Benz injection pump. If I were closer I would come and do it for him BTW, Michael, where are you located? On the east coast someplace as I recall. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Michigan maybe? Mike C. From NY about 500 miles to far away. On Jul 29, 2013 3:42 PM, Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 21:06:47 -0500 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: NO! NO! NO! You can't turn the engine over with the starter when timing!!! I have been following this thread agonizing for Michael with the continued frustration of things not working right, over and over and over. Now, however, we have definitive proof that his mechanic has not the first clue about timing a Benz injection pump. If I were closer I would come and do it for him BTW, Michael, where are you located? On the east coast someplace as I recall. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
First question, I believe, is still not answered. That is the question, Is this pump in good serviceable condition? Before spending any more time with timing, I would suggest that question be answered with a bench test at a reliable diesel shop with a working IP flow bench and specs for the Benz pump. Then.. time it from scratch. At this point.. with all the changes made by the Indy.. who knows where it is for timing? Just my $0.02 worth.. Grant... On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 21:06:47 -0500 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: NO! NO! NO! You can't turn the engine over with the starter when timing!!! I have been following this thread agonizing for Michael with the continued frustration of things not working right, over and over and over. Now, however, we have definitive proof that his mechanic has not the first clue about timing a Benz injection pump. If I were closer I would come and do it for him BTW, Michael, where are you located? On the east coast someplace as I recall. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
agreed.for the last question: We know where the timing is. It is out of time. First question, I believe, is still not answered. That is the question, Is this pump in good serviceable condition? Before spending any more time with timing, I would suggest that question be answered with a bench test at a reliable diesel shop with a working IP flow bench and specs for the Benz pump. Then.. time it from scratch. At this point.. with all the changes made by the Indy.. who knows where it is for timing? Just my $0.02 worth.. Grant... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
On 29/07/2013 3:45 PM, G Mann wrote: First question, I believe, is still not answered. That is the question, Is this pump in good serviceable condition? Before spending any more time with timing, I would suggest that question be answered with a bench test at a reliable diesel shop with a working IP flow bench and specs for the Benz pump. Then.. time it from scratch. At this point.. with all the changes made by the Indy.. who knows where it is for timing? Just my $0.02 worth.. Grant... Why not time it from scratch and see if it works? If it does not, then maybe have it checked out, or find another one to try. Randy who suspects sending it out will be expensive and might not prove much ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Craig wrote: BTW, Michael, where are you located? On the east coast someplace as I recall. Mike Esh is about 100 miles west of me, near Lake Michigan. Mike Canfield is in NY somewhere IIRC. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:59:40 -0500 Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: On 29/07/2013 3:45 PM, G Mann wrote: Before spending any more time with timing, I would suggest that question be answered with a bench test at a reliable diesel shop with a working IP flow bench and specs for the Benz pump. Then.. time it from scratch. At this point.. with all the changes made by the Indy.. who knows where it is for timing? Why not time it from scratch and see if it works? If it does not, then maybe have it checked out, or find another one to try. Randy who suspects sending it out will be expensive and might not prove much I agree with Randy. We know it's out of time now. Why not take the less-expensive route and see if it runs when correctly timed? Then if it doesn't work ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
On Mon, 29 Jul 2013 15:57:11 -0600 Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: I agree with Randy. We know it's out of time now. Why not take the less-expensive route and see if it runs when correctly timed? Then if it doesn't work (oops) you can try another pump, and maybe the third pump as well. It may be that one of the pumps works just fine and you don't need to spend the money to have a pump checked out. If none of them work, you can then pick one and send it out to be tested and, if necessary, repaired. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Also need to keep in mind that there are some pumps with the Bosch production number 251 that may have the mark on the housing in the wrong place. Not all of them either. It should be under the approximate middle of a bolt if it isn't then you need to set the gear mark three teeth to the left of the housing mark so the mark on the gear ends up under the middle of the bolt. It's in the manual for replacing the pump with pictures and all. Manfred Dieselhead wrote: Check the timing mark on the front of the IP. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Can't tell from your description. 1. Assuming that he followed the outlined procedure and you watched as the cam turned to the correct point and it was on the compression stroke then we go to-- 2. When you say he 'rolled it over' What does that mean? It's kind of like going to buy a new car and the salesman tells you he is giving you a great price. Do you then just sign the papers or do you find out what that price is first? How far did he turn the engine? Roll over does not quantify anything so I can't tell from that when the fuel actually started to 'drip' not 'spurt' two totally different things. The start of injection is a very specific setting. If he didn't have the actual drip tube then a very close watch has to be kept on the actual level of the fuel in the top of the connection on the fuel pump. You are looking for a very small increase of the level of fuel in that connection. By the time you see fuel squirting out of the port you are way past the actual start of injection and therefor out of time if the engine is now at the point where the injection should start. From what I read and until I get the answers to the above questions I have to say It will not work as it will be way out of time. Sorry that I have to say that but timing is a very specific thing and it's hard enough to get it right when you are right there, to tell if it's right from a general description is impossible. Manfred Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:11:38 -0400 From: Michael Esh michael...@mac.com Thanks Manfred. I stopped by the shop today and watched him set it up with #1 on the compression stroke then roll the engine over and watched the fuel spurt out and the timing mark stop at 24 degrees. Does this mean it is in the proper range? The weird thing is the mechanic had supposedly installed the pump at 180 opposite. He said he did this by setting up the pump normally and setting engine at 180. He was then going put things back together and give it a try. I had to leave at that point Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Thanks Manfred, He used an engine starter button to turn the engine over and we did not see the welling up, only spurting. I will pass along this information to him and we sill start again on Monday. My lack of knowledge as well as his is become glaringly apparent. I will be talking to the owner on Monday about this. Is there a manual or specific instructions about how to time the pump that I need to purchase and or read and take to the mechanic. Thanks for everyone's patience in helping me with this. Mike On Jul 27, 2013, at 6:35 AM, MG wrote: Can't tell from your description. 1. Assuming that he followed the outlined procedure and you watched as the cam turned to the correct point and it was on the compression stroke then we go to-- 2. When you say he 'rolled it over' What does that mean? It's kind of like going to buy a new car and the salesman tells you he is giving you a great price. Do you then just sign the papers or do you find out what that price is first? How far did he turn the engine? Roll over does not quantify anything so I can't tell from that when the fuel actually started to 'drip' not 'spurt' two totally different things. The start of injection is a very specific setting. If he didn't have the actual drip tube then a very close watch has to be kept on the actual level of the fuel in the top of the connection on the fuel pump. You are looking for a very small increase of the level of fuel in that connection. By the time you see fuel squirting out of the port you are way past the actual start of injection and therefor out of time if the engine is now at the point where the injection should start. From what I read and until I get the answers to the above questions I have to say It will not work as it will be way out of time. Sorry that I have to say that but timing is a very specific thing and it's hard enough to get it right when you are right there, to tell if it's right from a general description is impossible. Manfred Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:11:38 -0400 From: Michael Esh michael...@mac.com Thanks Manfred. I stopped by the shop today and watched him set it up with #1 on the compression stroke then roll the engine over and watched the fuel spurt out and the timing mark stop at 24 degrees. Does this mean it is in the proper range? The weird thing is the mechanic had supposedly installed the pump at 180 opposite. He said he did this by setting up the pump normally and setting engine at 180. He was then going put things back together and give it a try. I had to leave at that point Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
There are very specific procedures and if the mechanic does not know them then he is blowing smoke when he tells you he has done the job right in the past. There is no way he can turn the engine with the starter and get an accurate idea of when fuel delivery starts, NOT when it spurts out. He needs to be turning the engine with a bar and socket on the crankshaft so he can see exactly when fuel delivery starts. Sounds like you need a mechanic that has a clue what he is doing instead of a parts replacer doing a bunch of guesswork. Mike On Jul 27, 2013 7:41 AM, Michael Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Thanks Manfred, He used an engine starter button to turn the engine over and we did not see the welling up, only spurting. I will pass along this information to him and we sill start again on Monday. My lack of knowledge as well as his is become glaringly apparent. I will be talking to the owner on Monday about this. Is there a manual or specific instructions about how to time the pump that I need to purchase and or read and take to the mechanic. Thanks for everyone's patience in helping me with this. Mike On Jul 27, 2013, at 6:35 AM, MG wrote: Can't tell from your description. 1. Assuming that he followed the outlined procedure and you watched as the cam turned to the correct point and it was on the compression stroke then we go to-- 2. When you say he 'rolled it over' What does that mean? It's kind of like going to buy a new car and the salesman tells you he is giving you a great price. Do you then just sign the papers or do you find out what that price is first? How far did he turn the engine? Roll over does not quantify anything so I can't tell from that when the fuel actually started to 'drip' not 'spurt' two totally different things. The start of injection is a very specific setting. If he didn't have the actual drip tube then a very close watch has to be kept on the actual level of the fuel in the top of the connection on the fuel pump. You are looking for a very small increase of the level of fuel in that connection. By the time you see fuel squirting out of the port you are way past the actual start of injection and therefor out of time if the engine is now at the point where the injection should start. From what I read and until I get the answers to the above questions I have to say It will not work as it will be way out of time. Sorry that I have to say that but timing is a very specific thing and it's hard enough to get it right when you are right there, to tell if it's right from a general description is impossible. Manfred Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:11:38 -0400 From: Michael Esh michael...@mac.com Thanks Manfred. I stopped by the shop today and watched him set it up with #1 on the compression stroke then roll the engine over and watched the fuel spurt out and the timing mark stop at 24 degrees. Does this mean it is in the proper range? The weird thing is the mechanic had supposedly installed the pump at 180 opposite. He said he did this by setting up the pump normally and setting engine at 180. He was then going put things back together and give it a try. I had to leave at that point Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Yes, I am coming to that conclusion myself. My faith in a competent mechanic has faded away. Michael E. Esh 231-286-2344 On Jul 27, 2013, at 9:15 AM, Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.com wrote: There are very specific procedures and if the mechanic does not know them then he is blowing smoke when he tells you he has done the job right in the past. There is no way he can turn the engine with the starter and get an accurate idea of when fuel delivery starts, NOT when it spurts out. He needs to be turning the engine with a bar and socket on the crankshaft so he can see exactly when fuel delivery starts. Sounds like you need a mechanic that has a clue what he is doing instead of a parts replacer doing a bunch of guesswork. Mike On Jul 27, 2013 7:41 AM, Michael Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Thanks Manfred, He used an engine starter button to turn the engine over and we did not see the welling up, only spurting. I will pass along this information to him and we sill start again on Monday. My lack of knowledge as well as his is become glaringly apparent. I will be talking to the owner on Monday about this. Is there a manual or specific instructions about how to time the pump that I need to purchase and or read and take to the mechanic. Thanks for everyone's patience in helping me with this. Mike On Jul 27, 2013, at 6:35 AM, MG wrote: Can't tell from your description. 1. Assuming that he followed the outlined procedure and you watched as the cam turned to the correct point and it was on the compression stroke then we go to-- 2. When you say he 'rolled it over' What does that mean? It's kind of like going to buy a new car and the salesman tells you he is giving you a great price. Do you then just sign the papers or do you find out what that price is first? How far did he turn the engine? Roll over does not quantify anything so I can't tell from that when the fuel actually started to 'drip' not 'spurt' two totally different things. The start of injection is a very specific setting. If he didn't have the actual drip tube then a very close watch has to be kept on the actual level of the fuel in the top of the connection on the fuel pump. You are looking for a very small increase of the level of fuel in that connection. By the time you see fuel squirting out of the port you are way past the actual start of injection and therefor out of time if the engine is now at the point where the injection should start. From what I read and until I get the answers to the above questions I have to say It will not work as it will be way out of time. Sorry that I have to say that but timing is a very specific thing and it's hard enough to get it right when you are right there, to tell if it's right from a general description is impossible. Manfred Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:11:38 -0400 From: Michael Esh michael...@mac.com Thanks Manfred. I stopped by the shop today and watched him set it up with #1 on the compression stroke then roll the engine over and watched the fuel spurt out and the timing mark stop at 24 degrees. Does this mean it is in the proper range? The weird thing is the mechanic had supposedly installed the pump at 180 opposite. He said he did this by setting up the pump normally and setting engine at 180. He was then going put things back together and give it a try. I had to leave at that point Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
So, how close to Mike is the nearest lister that has a clue about how to get this thing running? Sounds like maybe he just needs a day of fiddling around by someone who knows just how precise Diesel timing needs to be. Mike On Jul 27, 2013 9:37 AM, Mike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Yes, I am coming to that conclusion myself. My faith in a competent mechanic has faded away. Michael E. Esh 231-286-2344 On Jul 27, 2013, at 9:15 AM, Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.com wrote: There are very specific procedures and if the mechanic does not know them then he is blowing smoke when he tells you he has done the job right in the past. There is no way he can turn the engine with the starter and get an accurate idea of when fuel delivery starts, NOT when it spurts out. He needs to be turning the engine with a bar and socket on the crankshaft so he can see exactly when fuel delivery starts. Sounds like you need a mechanic that has a clue what he is doing instead of a parts replacer doing a bunch of guesswork. Mike On Jul 27, 2013 7:41 AM, Michael Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Thanks Manfred, He used an engine starter button to turn the engine over and we did not see the welling up, only spurting. I will pass along this information to him and we sill start again on Monday. My lack of knowledge as well as his is become glaringly apparent. I will be talking to the owner on Monday about this. Is there a manual or specific instructions about how to time the pump that I need to purchase and or read and take to the mechanic. Thanks for everyone's patience in helping me with this. Mike On Jul 27, 2013, at 6:35 AM, MG wrote: Can't tell from your description. 1. Assuming that he followed the outlined procedure and you watched as the cam turned to the correct point and it was on the compression stroke then we go to-- 2. When you say he 'rolled it over' What does that mean? It's kind of like going to buy a new car and the salesman tells you he is giving you a great price. Do you then just sign the papers or do you find out what that price is first? How far did he turn the engine? Roll over does not quantify anything so I can't tell from that when the fuel actually started to 'drip' not 'spurt' two totally different things. The start of injection is a very specific setting. If he didn't have the actual drip tube then a very close watch has to be kept on the actual level of the fuel in the top of the connection on the fuel pump. You are looking for a very small increase of the level of fuel in that connection. By the time you see fuel squirting out of the port you are way past the actual start of injection and therefor out of time if the engine is now at the point where the injection should start. From what I read and until I get the answers to the above questions I have to say It will not work as it will be way out of time. Sorry that I have to say that but timing is a very specific thing and it's hard enough to get it right when you are right there, to tell if it's right from a general description is impossible. Manfred Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:11:38 -0400 From: Michael Esh michael...@mac.com Thanks Manfred. I stopped by the shop today and watched him set it up with #1 on the compression stroke then roll the engine over and watched the fuel spurt out and the timing mark stop at 24 degrees. Does this mean it is in the proper range? The weird thing is the mechanic had supposedly installed the pump at 180 opposite. He said he did this by setting up the pump normally and setting engine at 180. He was then going put things back together and give it a try. I had to leave at that point Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
You need to find or make a drip tube and use it correctly, it's not all that hard. You and cheat with some clear plastic tubing if you cannot find a drip tube. Remove the #1 injector line, remove the pressure valve holder and pressure valve. Replace the pressure valve holder. This is to allow you to see when the plunger covers the feed port in the sleeve inside the pump. Attach the drip tube or clear plastic line to the injector line fitting. Aim the drip tube off the side of the pump and be prepared for the fuel that will run out. wire the throttle linkage wide open and operate the manual lift pump to pressurize the feed chamber in the IP while rotating the engine by hand. Fuel should flow freely from the drip tube until you reach 26 degress on the compression stroke, at which point it should abruply cease or greatly diminish. This is the point at which the feed orifice in the sleeve is covered by the plunger and fuel pressure in the IP set should start rising toward injection pressure. This is the best method to determine if you have pump timing correct. Rotate the pump slightly get obtain the flow reduction at 26 degrees before top dead center on the compression stroke of #1. Once you get the injection timing correct, you will know if you have a pump problem or not. It doesn't take more than a tooth off on the sleeve that connects the IP to the timing device to result in a poorly running engine. good luck! Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Read about a man who had a boat with a diesel engine that had similar problems. He called an injection pump rebuild shop, explained his problem, and asked them to recommend a mechanic who could help. The diesel mechanic they recommended worked primarily on heavy machinery, trucks, and the diesel cooling units for big trucks. He was on call for truck stops, road construction companies, and others. He came out to the mans boat, fixed the problem fairly quickly, charged him a fair price, and the engine ran fine from then on. Gerry From: Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.com There are very specific procedures and if the mechanic does not know them then he is blowing smoke when he tells you he has done the job right in the past. There is no way he can turn the engine with the starter and get an accurate idea of when fuel delivery starts, NOT when it spurts out. He needs to be turning the engine with a bar and socket on the crankshaft so he can see exactly when fuel delivery starts. Sounds like you need a mechanic that has a clue what he is doing instead of a parts replacer doing a bunch of guesswork. Mike On Jul 27, 2013 7:41 AM, Michael Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Thanks Manfred, He used an engine starter button to turn the engine over and we did not see the welling up, only spurting. I will pass along this information to him and we sill start again on Monday. My lack of knowledge as well as his is become glaringly apparent. I will be talking to the owner on Monday about this. Is there a manual or specific instructions about how to time the pump that I need to purchase and or read and take to the mechanic. Thanks for everyone's patience in helping me with this. Mike On Jul 27, 2013, at 6:35 AM, MG wrote: Can't tell from your description. 1. Assuming that he followed the outlined procedure and you watched as the cam turned to the correct point and it was on the compression stroke then we go to-- 2. When you say he 'rolled it over' What does that mean? It's kind of like going to buy a new car and the salesman tells you he is giving you a great price. Do you then just sign the papers or do you find out what that price is first? How far did he turn the engine? Roll over does not quantify anything so I can't tell from that when the fuel actually started to 'drip' not 'spurt' two totally different things. The start of injection is a very specific setting. If he didn't have the actual drip tube then a very close watch has to be kept on the actual level of the fuel in the top of the connection on the fuel pump. You are looking for a very small increase of the level of fuel in that connection. By the time you see fuel squirting out of the port you are way past the actual start of injection and therefor out of time if the engine is now at the point where the injection should start. From what I read and until I get the answers to the above questions I have to say It will not work as it will be way out of time. Sorry that I have to say that but timing is a very specific thing and it's hard enough to get it right when you are right there, to tell if it's right from a general description is impossible. Manfred Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:11:38 -0400 From: Michael Esh michael...@mac.com Thanks Manfred. I stopped by the shop today and watched him set it up with #1 on the compression stroke then roll the engine over and watched the fuel spurt out and the timing mark stop at 24 degrees. Does this mean it is in the proper range? The weird thing is the mechanic had supposedly installed the pump at 180 opposite. He said he did this by setting up the pump normally and setting engine at 180. He was then going put things back together and give it a try. I had to leave at that point Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3209/6024 - Release Date: 07/26/13 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Yes. It must be turned very slowly and by hand. The crankshaft is optimal but hard to reach, especially while watching the IP, valve rockers, and crank angle. I have had good luck turning the engine using the nut on the power steering pump (assumes correct belt tension). -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Michael Canfield Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 9:16 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. There are very specific procedures and if the mechanic does not know them then he is blowing smoke when he tells you he has done the job right in the past. There is no way he can turn the engine with the starter and get an accurate idea of when fuel delivery starts, NOT when it spurts out. He needs to be turning the engine with a bar and socket on the crankshaft so he can see exactly when fuel delivery starts. Sounds like you need a mechanic that has a clue what he is doing instead of a parts replacer doing a bunch of guesswork. Mike On Jul 27, 2013 7:41 AM, Michael Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Thanks Manfred, He used an engine starter button to turn the engine over and we did not see the welling up, only spurting. I will pass along this information to him and we sill start again on Monday. My lack of knowledge as well as his is become glaringly apparent. I will be talking to the owner on Monday about this. Is there a manual or specific instructions about how to time the pump that I need to purchase and or read and take to the mechanic. Thanks for everyone's patience in helping me with this. Mike On Jul 27, 2013, at 6:35 AM, MG wrote: Can't tell from your description. 1. Assuming that he followed the outlined procedure and you watched as the cam turned to the correct point and it was on the compression stroke then we go to-- 2. When you say he 'rolled it over' What does that mean? It's kind of like going to buy a new car and the salesman tells you he is giving you a great price. Do you then just sign the papers or do you find out what that price is first? How far did he turn the engine? Roll over does not quantify anything so I can't tell from that when the fuel actually started to 'drip' not 'spurt' two totally different things. The start of injection is a very specific setting. If he didn't have the actual drip tube then a very close watch has to be kept on the actual level of the fuel in the top of the connection on the fuel pump. You are looking for a very small increase of the level of fuel in that connection. By the time you see fuel squirting out of the port you are way past the actual start of injection and therefor out of time if the engine is now at the point where the injection should start. From what I read and until I get the answers to the above questions I have to say It will not work as it will be way out of time. Sorry that I have to say that but timing is a very specific thing and it's hard enough to get it right when you are right there, to tell if it's right from a general description is impossible. Manfred Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 17:11:38 -0400 From: Michael Esh michael...@mac.com Thanks Manfred. I stopped by the shop today and watched him set it up with #1 on the compression stroke then roll the engine over and watched the fuel spurt out and the timing mark stop at 24 degrees. Does this mean it is in the proper range? The weird thing is the mechanic had supposedly installed the pump at 180 opposite. He said he did this by setting up the pump normally and setting engine at 180. He was then going put things back together and give it a try. I had to leave at that point Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
One other thought, is it possible for vibration damper (the thing with the TDC and crank angle indications on the front of the crank shaft) to fail and slip such that it indicates the wrong angle? I had this happen on a 86 ford transverse V6 (the rubber bond between the hub and outer rung failed) but I don't know if it's possible or likely on Mike's engine? Scott -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Peter Frederick Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 10:11 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. You need to find or make a drip tube and use it correctly, it's not all that hard. You and cheat with some clear plastic tubing if you cannot find a drip tube. Remove the #1 injector line, remove the pressure valve holder and pressure valve. Replace the pressure valve holder. This is to allow you to see when the plunger covers the feed port in the sleeve inside the pump. Attach the drip tube or clear plastic line to the injector line fitting. Aim the drip tube off the side of the pump and be prepared for the fuel that will run out. wire the throttle linkage wide open and operate the manual lift pump to pressurize the feed chamber in the IP while rotating the engine by hand. Fuel should flow freely from the drip tube until you reach 26 degress on the compression stroke, at which point it should abruply cease or greatly diminish. This is the point at which the feed orifice in the sleeve is covered by the plunger and fuel pressure in the IP set should start rising toward injection pressure. This is the best method to determine if you have pump timing correct. Rotate the pump slightly get obtain the flow reduction at 26 degrees before top dead center on the compression stroke of #1. Once you get the injection timing correct, you will know if you have a pump problem or not. It doesn't take more than a tooth off on the sleeve that connects the IP to the timing device to result in a poorly running engine. good luck! Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
I think I'm wrong here. Looking at the 617 engine, I think the timing marks are on the balance plate (not the vibration damper) which is hard mounted and pinned to the crank. Sorry for the red herring. -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Scott Ritchey Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 5:31 PM To: 'Mercedes Discussion List' Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. One other thought, is it possible for vibration damper (the thing with the TDC and crank angle indications on the front of the crank shaft) to fail and slip such that it indicates the wrong angle? I had this happen on a 86 ford transverse V6 (the rubber bond between the hub and outer rung failed) but I don't know if it's possible or likely on Mike's engine? Scott -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Peter Frederick Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 10:11 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. You need to find or make a drip tube and use it correctly, it's not all that hard. You and cheat with some clear plastic tubing if you cannot find a drip tube. Remove the #1 injector line, remove the pressure valve holder and pressure valve. Replace the pressure valve holder. This is to allow you to see when the plunger covers the feed port in the sleeve inside the pump. Attach the drip tube or clear plastic line to the injector line fitting. Aim the drip tube off the side of the pump and be prepared for the fuel that will run out. wire the throttle linkage wide open and operate the manual lift pump to pressurize the feed chamber in the IP while rotating the engine by hand. Fuel should flow freely from the drip tube until you reach 26 degress on the compression stroke, at which point it should abruply cease or greatly diminish. This is the point at which the feed orifice in the sleeve is covered by the plunger and fuel pressure in the IP set should start rising toward injection pressure. This is the best method to determine if you have pump timing correct. Rotate the pump slightly get obtain the flow reduction at 26 degrees before top dead center on the compression stroke of #1. Once you get the injection timing correct, you will know if you have a pump problem or not. It doesn't take more than a tooth off on the sleeve that connects the IP to the timing device to result in a poorly running engine. good luck! Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Thanks Manfred, He used an engine starter button to turn the engine over and we did not see the welling up, only spurting. I will pass along this information to him and we sill start again on Monday. My lack of knowledge as well as his is become glaringly apparent. I will be talking to the owner on Monday about this. Is there a manual or specific instructions about how to time the pump that I need to purchase and or read and take to the mechanic. Thanks for everyone's patience in helping me with this. Mike NO! NO! NO! You can't turn the engine over with the starter when timing!!! As Manfred said, once you find the approximate location of the START of injection (that needs to line up with the correct degrees BTDC, then you turn the engine over by hand with a socket on the crankshaftt big bolt about 700º (just under two full revolutions) then very, very slwly until the drip tube stops running and just starts to drip (With the DV pin out) or, using my QD method, until the fuel in the 2mm dia part of the bore in the #1 DV union just barely starts to move (like .005) RTFB OM616/617 engine book. (paper) Timing a diesel is NOTHING like timing a gasser. Static timing a gassser is similar to timing a Diesel, but not nearly as much precision is required. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
You need to find or make a drip tube and use it correctly, it's not all that hard. You and cheat with some clear plastic tubing if you cannot find a drip tube. Remove the #1 injector line, remove the pressure valve holder and pressure valve. Replace the pressure valve holder. This is to allow you to see when the plunger covers the feed port in the sleeve inside the pump. Attach the drip tube or clear plastic line to the injector line fitting. Aim the drip tube off the side of the pump and be prepared for the fuel that will run out. wire the throttle linkage wide open and operate the manual lift pump to pressurize the feed chamber in the IP while rotating the engine by hand. Fuel should flow freely from the drip tube until you reach 26 degress on the compression stroke, at which point it should abruply cease or greatly diminish. This is the point at which the feed orifice in the sleeve is covered by the plunger and fuel pressure in the IP set should start rising toward injection pressure. This is the best method to determine if you have pump timing correct. Rotate the pump slightly get obtain the flow reduction at 26 degrees before top dead center on the compression stroke of #1. Once you get the injection timing correct, you will know if you have a pump problem or not. It doesn't take more than a tooth off on the sleeve that connects the IP to the timing device to result in a poorly running engine. good luck! Peter All correct, but in this case, I'd bet the pump is off by at least one tooth on the drive, so I would modify the third paragraph thusly: Fuel should flow freely from the drip tube until you reach the beginning of fuel delivery at which point the fuel flow at the drip tube should abruptly cease or greatly diminish. (See the book section on injection timing) Beginning of fuel delivery is supposed to be 26 degrees on the compression stroke. Once you determine how many degrees the beginning of delivery is off, then you can figure out how many teeth the ip of off at the drive. THen you have to take out the pump and try to get it in the right tooth. This will probably take you several tries. Reading the book may help, but I found that it was best to set the IP cam where it will stay without a locking device with the #1 cam on the way up to delivery. Then turn the engine to 45º BTDC and install the pump and see how close you are for timing. (it will probably be late for beginning of delivery on #1. So you will need to determine how many degrees retarded it is, remove the pump, then turn the engine crank over 720º minus the number of degrees retarded, and install the pump again. THis time you should be right on. Check the timing mark on the front of the IP. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
The saga continues. I have the new /used pump installed at 180 degrees from normal and we are still having an issue of very low power. The mechanic had a very difficult time getting the pump installed at this position. He said it kept moving off several teeth as he placed in position. He ended up setting up the pump normally and setting the engine at 180 degrees off. He then tried to drip time off the #1 cylinder and the fuel did not show up. We tried drip timing off # 5 and that appeared to work but we are still having the same low power and smoke. It starts and idles very well, just no power. He had set the valve clearance previously and will be testing compression today. I will keep you informed as to our progress or lack thereof. This is taking so long because he is working in his spare time to help me keep my cost down. If we cannot figure this out do you think I should try a new/rebuilt injector pump? To the skeptics who ask me to question his experience: he has changed many Mercedes pumps but has never had any trouble timing them. So he is indeed, inexperienced at troubleshooting them. All help and suggestions are being passed along. Thanks for all the help thus far, Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 On Jul 09, 2013, at 12:38 AM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:59:34 -0500 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB tools. You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1 exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer is. That is roughly the start of delivery. That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery is. Good suggestion, Loren. Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation. Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel reservoir. Yes, if there is no fuel delivery at the expected place, you keep turning the engine over until you get delivery. While we might expect the beginning of delivery to be 360º out, it may well be anywhere. the kleb SDL was way out of time, but actually ran pretty well. Well enough that Kaleb never figured out it was way off. http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Bummer. no obstruction in the intake manifold? Is the throttle linkage hooked up correctly? 84 300D should have the newer throttle linkage, not the bellcrank, so that makes it easier. Does it run correctly if you run the throttle manually under the hood? Now that it idles well, is the turbo management all working correctly? Does the turbo spool up as expected? The saga continues. I have the new /used pump installed at 180 degrees from normal and we are still having an issue of very low power. The mechanic had a very difficult time getting the pump installed at this position. He said it kept moving off several teeth as he placed in position. He ended up setting up the pump normally and setting the engine at 180 degrees off. He then tried to drip time off the #1 cylinder and the fuel did not show up. We tried drip timing off # 5 and that appeared to work but we are still having the same low power and smoke. It starts and idles very well, just no power. He had set the valve clearance previously and will be testing compression today. I will keep you informed as to our progress or lack thereof. This is taking so long because he is working in his spare time to help me keep my cost down. If we cannot figure this out do you think I should try a new/rebuilt injector pump? To the skeptics who ask me to question his experience: he has changed many Mercedes pumps but has never had any trouble timing them. So he is indeed, inexperienced at troubleshooting them. All help and suggestions are being passed along. Thanks for all the help thus far, Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 On Jul 09, 2013, at 12:38 AM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:59:34 -0500 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB tools. You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1 exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer is. That is roughly the start of delivery. That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery is. Good suggestion, Loren. Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation. Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel reservoir. Yes, if there is no fuel delivery at the expected place, you keep turning the engine over until you get delivery. While we might expect the beginning of delivery to be 360º out, it may well be anywhere. the kleb SDL was way out of time, but actually ran pretty well. Well enough that Kaleb never figured out it was way off. http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
In that case he probably should install the pump the way he knows how to do it. Sounds like he knows how to do it right so the problem is likely elsewhere. Mike On Jul 26, 2013 8:59 AM, Mike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: The saga continues. I have the new /used pump installed at 180 degrees from normal and we are still having an issue of very low power. The mechanic had a very difficult time getting the pump installed at this position. He said it kept moving off several teeth as he placed in position. He ended up setting up the pump normally and setting the engine at 180 degrees off. He then tried to drip time off the #1 cylinder and the fuel did not show up. We tried drip timing off # 5 and that appeared to work but we are still having the same low power and smoke. It starts and idles very well, just no power. He had set the valve clearance previously and will be testing compression today. I will keep you informed as to our progress or lack thereof. This is taking so long because he is working in his spare time to help me keep my cost down. If we cannot figure this out do you think I should try a new/rebuilt injector pump? To the skeptics who ask me to question his experience: he has changed many Mercedes pumps but has never had any trouble timing them. So he is indeed, inexperienced at troubleshooting them. All help and suggestions are being passed along. Thanks for all the help thus far, Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/**138123http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 On Jul 09, 2013, at 12:38 AM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:59:34 -0500 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB tools. You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1 exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer is. That is roughly the start of delivery. That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery is. Good suggestion, Loren. Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation. Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel reservoir. Yes, if there is no fuel delivery at the expected place, you keep turning the engine over until you get delivery. While we might expect the beginning of delivery to be 360º out, it may well be anywhere. the kleb SDL was way out of time, but actually ran pretty well. Well enough that Kaleb never figured out it was way off. http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Yes, we have tried that with this and one other pump previously. Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 On Jul 26, 2013, at 10:50 AM, Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.com wrote: In that case he probably should install the pump the way he knows how to do it. Sounds like he knows how to do it right so the problem is likely elsewhere. Mike On Jul 26, 2013 8:59 AM, Mike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: The saga continues. I have the new /used pump installed at 180 degrees from normal and we are still having an issue of very low power. The mechanic had a very difficult time getting the pump installed at this position. He said it kept moving off several teeth as he placed in position. He ended up setting up the pump normally and setting the engine at 180 degrees off. He then tried to drip time off the #1 cylinder and the fuel did not show up. We tried drip timing off # 5 and that appeared to work but we are still having the same low power and smoke. It starts and idles very well, just no power. He had set the valve clearance previously and will be testing compression today. I will keep you informed as to our progress or lack thereof. This is taking so long because he is working in his spare time to help me keep my cost down. If we cannot figure this out do you think I should try a new/rebuilt injector pump? To the skeptics who ask me to question his experience: he has changed many Mercedes pumps but has never had any trouble timing them. So he is indeed, inexperienced at troubleshooting them. All help and suggestions are being passed along. Thanks for all the help thus far, Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/**138123http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 On Jul 09, 2013, at 12:38 AM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:59:34 -0500 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB tools. You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1 exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer is. That is roughly the start of delivery. That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery is. Good suggestion, Loren. Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation. Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel reservoir. Yes, if there is no fuel delivery at the expected place, you keep turning the engine over until you get delivery. While we might expect the beginning of delivery to be 360º out, it may well be anywhere. the kleb SDL was way out of time, but actually ran pretty well. Well enough that Kaleb never figured out it was way off. http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Can you put the original pump back on and make it run just like when you started out? That will be the test of the install procedure. Sounds like it is time to put it back and start from scratch. Mike On Jul 26, 2013 11:17 AM, Mike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Yes, we have tried that with this and one other pump previously. Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/**138123http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 On Jul 26, 2013, at 10:50 AM, Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.com wrote: In that case he probably should install the pump the way he knows how to do it. Sounds like he knows how to do it right so the problem is likely elsewhere. Mike On Jul 26, 2013 8:59 AM, Mike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: The saga continues. I have the new /used pump installed at 180 degrees from normal and we are still having an issue of very low power. The mechanic had a very difficult time getting the pump installed at this position. He said it kept moving off several teeth as he placed in position. He ended up setting up the pump normally and setting the engine at 180 degrees off. He then tried to drip time off the #1 cylinder and the fuel did not show up. We tried drip timing off # 5 and that appeared to work but we are still having the same low power and smoke. It starts and idles very well, just no power. He had set the valve clearance previously and will be testing compression today. I will keep you informed as to our progress or lack thereof. This is taking so long because he is working in his spare time to help me keep my cost down. If we cannot figure this out do you think I should try a new/rebuilt injector pump? To the skeptics who ask me to question his experience: he has changed many Mercedes pumps but has never had any trouble timing them. So he is indeed, inexperienced at troubleshooting them. All help and suggestions are being passed along. Thanks for all the help thus far, Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123http://www.yugster.com/invite/**138123 http://www.yugster.**com/invite/138123http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 On Jul 09, 2013, at 12:38 AM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:59:34 -0500 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB tools. You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1 exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer is. That is roughly the start of delivery. That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery is. Good suggestion, Loren. Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation. Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel reservoir. Yes, if there is no fuel delivery at the expected place, you keep turning the engine over until you get delivery. While we might expect the beginning of delivery to be 360º out, it may well be anywhere. the kleb SDL was way out of time, but actually ran pretty well. Well enough that Kaleb never figured out it was way off. http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com http://mail.**okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/**mercedes_okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/ http://www.okiebenz.**com/archive/ http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Call Mel at Conestoga Diesel http://www.conestogadiesel.com/ 717-806-5561 Send your pump to him for a bench check to verify if it's in spec or not. That will give you a solid place to start and answer the burning question is the IP any good, or does it have issues that are causing the problem. I've known Mel from another diesel board since 2007 and he has always been rock solid straight. Hope this helps, Grant.. AZ On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Mike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: The saga continues. I have the new /used pump installed at 180 degrees from normal and we are still having an issue of very low power. The mechanic had a very difficult time getting the pump installed at this position. He said it kept moving off several teeth as he placed in position. He ended up setting up the pump normally and setting the engine at 180 degrees off. He then tried to drip time off the #1 cylinder and the fuel did not show up. We tried drip timing off # 5 and that appeared to work but we are still having the same low power and smoke. It starts and idles very well, just no power. He had set the valve clearance previously and will be testing compression today. I will keep you informed as to our progress or lack thereof. This is taking so long because he is working in his spare time to help me keep my cost down. If we cannot figure this out do you think I should try a new/rebuilt injector pump? To the skeptics who ask me to question his experience: he has changed many Mercedes pumps but has never had any trouble timing them. So he is indeed, inexperienced at troubleshooting them. All help and suggestions are being passed along. Thanks for all the help thus far, Mike Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/**138123http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 On Jul 09, 2013, at 12:38 AM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:59:34 -0500 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB tools. You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1 exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer is. That is roughly the start of delivery. That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery is. Good suggestion, Loren. Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation. Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel reservoir. Yes, if there is no fuel delivery at the expected place, you keep turning the engine over until you get delivery. While we might expect the beginning of delivery to be 360º out, it may well be anywhere. the kleb SDL was way out of time, but actually ran pretty well. Well enough that Kaleb never figured out it was way off. http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Mike I have to take this one question at a time. Did you see the mechanic do a drip timing test with the valve cover off the engine? Manfred Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 12:59:19 + (GMT) From: Mike Esh michael...@mac.com The saga continues. I have the new /used pump installed at 180 degrees from normal and we are still having an issue of very low power. The mechanic had a very difficult time getting the pump installed at this position. He said it kept moving off several teeth as he placed in position. He ended up setting up the pump normally and setting the engine at 180 degrees off. He then tried to drip time off the #1 cylinder and the fuel did not show up. We tried drip timing off # 5 and that appeared to work but we are still having the same low power and smoke. It starts and idles very well, just no power. He had set the valve clearance previously and will be testing compression today. I will keep you informed as to our progress or lack thereof. This is taking so long because he is working in his spare time to help me keep my cost down. If we cannot figure this out do you think I should try a new/rebuilt injector pump? To the skeptics who ask me to question his experience: he has changed many Mercedes pumps but has never had any trouble timing them. So he is indeed, inexperienced at troubleshooting them. All help and suggestions are being passed along. Thanks for all the help thus far, Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
No, I am at work. I sent him the following information from people on our forum.. with emphasis on the last paragraph. He agreed to try it. Manfred, will this get the timing close? He has not called back yet. Mike Mike I have to take this one question at a time. Did you see the mechanic do a drip timing test with the valve cover off the engine? Manfred Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB tools. You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1 exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer is. That is roughly the start of delivery. That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery is. Good suggestion, Loren. Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation. Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel reservoir. Yes, if there is no fuel delivery at the expected place, you keep turning the engine over until you get delivery. While we might expect the beginning of delivery to be 360º out, it may well be anywhere. the kleb SDL was way out of time, but actually ran pretty well. Well enough that Kaleb never figured out it was way off. Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 On Jul 26, 2013, at 02:08 PM, MG trainpain2...@aol.com wrote: Mike I have to take this one question at a time. Did you see the mechanic do a drip timing test with the valve cover off the engine? Manfred Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 12:59:19 + (GMT) From: Mike Esh michael...@mac.com The saga continues. I have the new /used pump installed at 180 degrees from normal and we are still having an issue of very low power. The mechanic had a very difficult time getting the pump installed at this position. He said it kept moving off several teeth as he placed in position. He ended up setting up the pump normally and setting the engine at 180 degrees off. He then tried to drip time off the #1 cylinder and the fuel did not show up. We tried drip timing off # 5 and that appeared to work but we are still having the same low power and smoke. It starts and idles very well, just no power. He had set the valve clearance previously and will be testing compression today. I will keep you informed as to our progress or lack thereof. This is taking so long because he is working in his spare time to help me keep my cost down. If we cannot figure this out do you think I should try a new/rebuilt injector pump? To the skeptics who ask me to question his experience: he has changed many Mercedes pumps but has never had any trouble timing them. So he is indeed, inexperienced at troubleshooting them. All help and suggestions are being passed along. Thanks for all the help thus far, Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
It is the ONLY way to get it right, now that no one knows where the pump is set. You have to have the valve cover off so you can see if both of the valves for #1 are closed when the drip for #1 happens. Right now it could still be 90 pump deg, or 180 more engine degs out of time. Manfred Mike Esh Fri, 26 Jul 2013 11:25:40 -0700 No, I am at work. I sent him the following information from people on our forum.. with emphasis on the last paragraph. He agreed to try it. Manfred, will this get the timing close? He has not called back yet. Mike Mike I have to take this one question at a time. Did you see the mechanic do a drip timing test with the valve cover off the engine? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Thanks Manfred. I stopped by the shop today and watched him set it up with #1 on the compression stroke then roll the engine over and watched the fuel spurt out and the timing mark stop at 24 degrees. Does this mean it is in the proper range? The weird thing is the mechanic had supposedly installed the pump at 180 opposite. He said he did this by setting up the pump normally and setting engine at 180. He was then going put things back together and give it a try. I had to leave at that point Mike On Jul 26, 2013, at 3:01 PM, MG wrote: It is the ONLY way to get it right, now that no one knows where the pump is set. You have to have the valve cover off so you can see if both of the valves for #1 are closed when the drip for #1 happens. Right now it could still be 90 pump deg, or 180 more engine degs out of time. Manfred Mike Esh Fri, 26 Jul 2013 11:25:40 -0700 No, I am at work. I sent him the following information from people on our forum.. with emphasis on the last paragraph. He agreed to try it. Manfred, will this get the timing close? He has not called back yet. Mike Mike I have to take this one question at a time. Did you see the mechanic do a drip timing test with the valve cover off the engine? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Michael Canfield wrote: Can you put the original pump back on and make it run just like when you started out? That will be the test of the install procedure. Reminds me of a certain W124. Ran great but had a sticky throttle (internal to IP). Had dealer in Kzoo install a used pump, and it didn't make good power any more. Had dealer reinstall old pump, sent used pump back to seller. Didn't make as much power as I expected and laid down a black smoke screen when I test drove it. Made me doubt whether the dealer or the used pump was to blame. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Don't know about /black /smoke and loping at idle but I had a MB that had white smoke ran slowly or failed to move forward - it would not go faster than ~10mph - then all of a sudden it would spring to life. - it turned out to be carbon buildup in the head.. Don't know if yours is similar to mine regular long distance driving fixed it LarryT On 7/8/2013 11:59 PM, Dieselhead wrote: I have done many other things on my cars and I always enjoy the learning that takes place. I have little knowledge or experience with the injection pump and no one close by that could help me get through it the first time. I am learning more as we go from my mechanic and this forum. I will probably try it myself if I get the opportunity again. Thanks, Mike Michael E. Esh 231-286-2344 Mike, You can't learn any sooner. I learned to work on OM621s out of necessity. If you do a little reading in the engine manual, or even old chilton manuals at the welfare bookstore(Library) you can get illustrations and instructions on changing the pump and or pump timing. What the books won't tell you is what I told you about an easy method to check to see if the timing is in the ballpark. I invented the method because I really did not want to disturb the delivery valves for the drip method. I read and reread the manuals and learned what the drip method was really trying to monitor. I had never had an engine apart before but I rebuilt my OM621 with a factory short block. Yes, I put in the pump and took it out because it was on the wrong tooth of the drive coupling until I got it right. Do it yourself. You care more about your car than anyone else does. Take the time to learn and to do it right. One other thing I learned about OM621 IPs is that the cams are under pressure (delivery stroke) if you try to put the pump in at the timing mark (27ºBTDC in this case) or even at TDC.There are 4 lobes on the cam (5 for OM617) If you get the ip cam to where it is at rest before the #1 lobe, and set the crank to about 90º BTDC for #1 compression, and stick the pump in, you are coordinating the pump cam location to the crank location.The factory method requires a special tool to hold the IP cam under tension to align with the timing mark. Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB tools. You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1 exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer is. That is roughly the start of delivery. That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery is. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Wow! That is crazy! Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 06:25:09 -0400 Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.com wrote: Wow! That is crazy! Mike What is crazy? You didn't quote anything from the previous post. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
One guy rebent the injection lines to match the firing order. 1 4 3 2 in place of just replacing the lines. (1 2 3 4) That was about max stupidity, but to a gas engine guy, the lines sort of resembled spark plug wires That is what is crazy. Maybe I will get the hang of trimming posts on my phone someday. Mike On Jul 8, 2013 2:00 PM, Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 06:25:09 -0400 Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.com wrote: Wow! That is crazy! Mike What is crazy? You didn't quote anything from the previous post. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 14:04:09 -0400 Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.com wrote: One guy rebent the injection lines to match the firing order. 1 4 3 2 in place of just replacing the lines. (1 2 3 4) That was about max stupidity, but to a gas engine guy, the lines sort of resembled spark plug wires That is what is crazy. Yes, that IS crazy! Maybe I will get the hang of trimming posts on my phone someday. I wish you success. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
On Jul 8, 2013, at 1:04 PM, Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe I will get the hang of trimming posts on my phone someday. What phone? iPhone is dead simple. My Android tablet, not so much, to the point I don't even read email on it... Rick Sent from my iPhone ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
HTC Evo 4g lte. Android OS. Not the phones fault, I just don't pay attention and hit buttons too fast. Mike On Jul 8, 2013 2:16 PM, Rick Knoble rickkno...@hotmail.com wrote: On Jul 8, 2013, at 1:04 PM, Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe I will get the hang of trimming posts on my phone someday. What phone? iPhone is dead simple. My Android tablet, not so much, to the point I don't even read email on it... Rick Sent from my iPhone ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
One guy rebent the injection lines to match the firing order. 1 4 3 2 in place of just replacing the lines. (1 2 3 4) That was about max stupidity, but to a gas engine guy, the lines sort of resembled spark plug wires That is what is crazy. Maybe I will get the hang of trimming posts on my phone someday. Mike yep, especially since it was working before he fixed it. One of the ultra rare zundfogle engines ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
I have done many other things on my cars and I always enjoy the learning that takes place. I have little knowledge or experience with the injection pump and no one close by that could help me get through it the first time. I am learning more as we go from my mechanic and this forum. I will probably try it myself if I get the opportunity again. Thanks, Mike Michael E. Esh 231-286-2344 Mike, You can't learn any sooner. I learned to work on OM621s out of necessity. If you do a little reading in the engine manual, or even old chilton manuals at the welfare bookstore(Library) you can get illustrations and instructions on changing the pump and or pump timing. What the books won't tell you is what I told you about an easy method to check to see if the timing is in the ballpark. I invented the method because I really did not want to disturb the delivery valves for the drip method. I read and reread the manuals and learned what the drip method was really trying to monitor. I had never had an engine apart before but I rebuilt my OM621 with a factory short block. Yes, I put in the pump and took it out because it was on the wrong tooth of the drive coupling until I got it right. Do it yourself. You care more about your car than anyone else does. Take the time to learn and to do it right. One other thing I learned about OM621 IPs is that the cams are under pressure (delivery stroke) if you try to put the pump in at the timing mark (27ºBTDC in this case) or even at TDC.There are 4 lobes on the cam (5 for OM617) If you get the ip cam to where it is at rest before the #1 lobe, and set the crank to about 90º BTDC for #1 compression, and stick the pump in, you are coordinating the pump cam location to the crank location.The factory method requires a special tool to hold the IP cam under tension to align with the timing mark. Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB tools. You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1 exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer is. That is roughly the start of delivery. That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery is. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:59:34 -0500 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB tools. You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1 exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer is. That is roughly the start of delivery. That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery is. Good suggestion, Loren. Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation. Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel reservoir. As one who has removed an OM617 injection pump to be bench tested and then replaced it, I know of the many questions one has before doing the process. Once you get it done, it's not so mysterious. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
On Mon, 8 Jul 2013 22:59:34 -0500 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Without the tool, I had to invent a way to do the same thing (get the pump in time) so I read a lot and thought about what has to be accomplished, then developed ways to do it without the expensive MB tools. You can do the same. Take off the valve cover, turn the engine over slowly. watch the first camshaft lobe depress the first valve (#1 exhaust) then keep turning until the #1 intake valve goes down. Then turn the engine over until you can see the degree marks on the crank dampener. stop at 45º BTDC. Then clean and remove the #1 injector line, clean the fuel out of the tapered part of the DV union on the pump where the injector line fastens to the pump. turn the engine over very slowly until you see the fuel just start to move up in the DV union. Stop! Read the degrees on the crank dampener where the pointer is. That is roughly the start of delivery. That is all you need to do. Check where the beginning of fuel delivery is. Good suggestion, Loren. Of course, you are assuming that it's been installed close to correct timing. If the pump is 180 degrees out, he may not see the fuel welling up in the delivery valve at the correct place of the crank rotation. Also, like we discussed earlier this year when I was mystified by my diesel with the bad delivery valve seals continuing to leak fuel, he may have fuel welling up before the start of delivery and should look for a stoppage of the welling up when the piston blocks the opening to the fuel reservoir. Yes, if there is no fuel delivery at the expected place, you keep turning the engine over until you get delivery. While we might expect the beginning of delivery to be 360º out, it may well be anywhere. the kleb SDL was way out of time, but actually ran pretty well. Well enough that Kaleb never figured out it was way off. As one who has removed an OM617 injection pump to be bench tested and then replaced it, I know of the many questions one has before doing the process. Once you get it done, it's not so mysterious. Craig Yassir! not so mysterious once you do it. The mystery is demystifying the special tools required. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Dieselhead wrote: II have engines sit for years and then fire right up. I don't think purge will help this problem. So, you think if the pumps were removed from good running cars, the problem isn't in storage, so we're either looking at two different sellers sticking him/me with bad pumps or mechanic failure? The first one Mike had put in was probably wrapped in plastic in a basement for 8-10 years. Mitch. I still think both pumps were put in out of time by the same guy. there are tricks to getting the pump on the right tooth of the drive spline. not everyone checks carefully. One guy rebent the injection lines to match the firing order. 1 4 3 2 in place of just replacing the lines. (1 2 3 4) That was about max stupidity, but to a gas engine guy, the lines sort of resembled spark plug wires ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
II have engines sit for years and then fire right up. I don't think purge will help this problem. Mike Esh wrote: I drove it today about 20 miles on the highway. Have you tried to clean the pumps? They may have gotten gummy being stored with diesel fuel instead of calibrating oil. You could disconnect the fuel and return lines, put them in a can of purge, and run on 100% diesel purge until the can is gone, or if you're taking it out on the road, dump a bottle or two of Techron in the fuel tank. Mitch. _ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Dieselhead wrote: II have engines sit for years and then fire right up. I don't think purge will help this problem. So, you think if the pumps were removed from good running cars, the problem isn't in storage, so we're either looking at two different sellers sticking him/me with bad pumps or mechanic failure? The first one Mike had put in was probably wrapped in plastic in a basement for 8-10 years. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
I agree on this IF the pump is not sitting on a shelf somewhere. A complete engine with a closed fuel system is a whole different story than a pump with old fuel and air in it sitting in storage. Did either pump have protective caps to cover the ports installed before storage? I do, however, tend to agree that the chances are that the installer isn't getting it right. Mike ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Michael Canfield wrote: Did either pump have protective caps to cover the ports installed before storage? I don't know about replacement pump #2. The one he got from me was wrapped like a mummy in commercial duty Saran Wrap type stuff, padded with shredded paper and taped up in a cardboard box for shipping. I bought it on eBay and didn't unwrap it until Mike needed it. It probably saw little oxygen beyond what was wrapped in plastic with it, but that could be more than enough to react with anything in the delivery valves. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Mike Esh wrote: I drove it today about 20 miles on the highway. Have you tried to clean the pumps? They may have gotten gummy being stored with diesel fuel instead of calibrating oil. You could disconnect the fuel and return lines, put them in a can of purge, and run on 100% diesel purge until the can is gone, or if you're taking it out on the road, dump a bottle or two of Techron in the fuel tank. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
I will try that today. Michael E. Esh 231-286-2344 On Jul 2, 2013, at 6:19 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Mike Esh wrote: I drove it today about 20 miles on the highway. Have you tried to clean the pumps? They may have gotten gummy being stored with diesel fuel instead of calibrating oil. You could disconnect the fuel and return lines, put them in a can of purge, and run on 100% diesel purge until the can is gone, or if you're taking it out on the road, dump a bottle or two of Techron in the fuel tank. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
The Diesel-Purge treatment should be the first thing you do after getting a used pump installed and running. No way to adjust and get it running right if it is sticky and dirty inside. Mike On Jul 2, 2013 6:20 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Mike Esh wrote: I drove it today about 20 miles on the highway. Have you tried to clean the pumps? They may have gotten gummy being stored with diesel fuel instead of calibrating oil. You could disconnect the fuel and return lines, put them in a can of purge, and run on 100% diesel purge until the can is gone, or if you're taking it out on the road, dump a bottle or two of Techron in the fuel tank. Mitch. __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
That's why were all here listening and chiming in occasionally. 'Always enjoy learning, thank you. ;) Wilton - Original Message - From: Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 12:45 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. Hey Mike, Sounds like you are learning a valuable lesson that all of us that don't know should.With a 30 year old German car you are much better off just learning to do the job yourself. Not trying to rub it in or anything like that. Just hoping other lurkers may learn from your/our experiences as a group. Thanks for posting, Mike On Jul 1, 2013 11:29 PM, Mike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Update - I changed the injectors and there was no change. Installed new/used/unmolested ALDA, it actually runs a little worse. I drove it today about 20 miles on the highway. It started very hard and would not not stay running without pushing the accelerator to the floor until it started to gain rpm's. Once on the road it continued to smoke and top speed was 60 mph with very low power. Tomorrow I will pop the valve cover and check the timing using the non-drip method. Michael E. Esh 231-286-2344 On Jul 1, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the installer - doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with alternators from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble. I like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube! THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not go bad just when you changed the IP. It about has to be IP timing. Agreed Listen to OK Don. You don't have to go through the brain damage of drip tube timing. Just take off the valve cover and the #1 injection line. turn the engine over slowly (in the operating direction, CW facing the front of the engine.) and watch the cam lopes on #1. Exhaust is at the front of the engine, and #1 intake is the second lobe.After the intake lobe pushed the intake valve open and then lets it close, clear the fuel out of the taperec part of the top of the DV union on the top of the IP. You can blow this out with a soda straw, or soak it up with a paper towel. then turn the engine vey slowly until you see fuel start to rise in the small part of the DV union. This IS the beginning of delivery. Now read the cranshaft damper degree wheel at the pointer. It should be the setting for start of delivery or a couple of degrees late. If you don't get fuel, and you continue to turn the engine over until the exhaust valve opens and fuel is delivered about the time the exhaust valve closes, your IP is 360º out of time on the crank, or 180º out of time on the IP shaft. While this method is not 100% accurate for timing the IP, it WILL tell you if you are in the ballpark. I repeat it several times, because each time I can get closer to the actual start of injection. I used this method for timing OM 621s for years and I could get it within 1/2 degree of drip tube timing without all the hassle, or the danger of introducing dirt in the IP when you remove the DV for the trip tube timing by the book. If your timing is within 5 or even 10 degrees, you won't get the symptoms you describe. These engines are pretty forgiving. If timing is the issue, it was to be WAY out to get those symptoms. THat is why I asked a couple weeks ago how many times has this guy successfully changed IPs. It is a relevant question even if it makes you uncomfortable. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
I have done many other things on my cars and I always enjoy the learning that takes place. I have little knowledge or experience with the injection pump and no one close by that could help me get through it the first time. I am learning more as we go from my mechanic and this forum. I will probably try it myself if I get the opportunity again. Thanks, Mike Michael E. Esh 231-286-2344 On Jul 2, 2013, at 3:16 PM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: That's why were all here listening and chiming in occasionally. 'Always enjoy learning, thank you. ;) Wilton - Original Message - From: Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 12:45 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. Hey Mike, Sounds like you are learning a valuable lesson that all of us that don't know should.With a 30 year old German car you are much better off just learning to do the job yourself. Not trying to rub it in or anything like that. Just hoping other lurkers may learn from your/our experiences as a group. Thanks for posting, Mike On Jul 1, 2013 11:29 PM, Mike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Update - I changed the injectors and there was no change. Installed new/used/unmolested ALDA, it actually runs a little worse. I drove it today about 20 miles on the highway. It started very hard and would not not stay running without pushing the accelerator to the floor until it started to gain rpm's. Once on the road it continued to smoke and top speed was 60 mph with very low power. Tomorrow I will pop the valve cover and check the timing using the non-drip method. Michael E. Esh 231-286-2344 On Jul 1, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the installer - doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with alternators from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble. I like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube! THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not go bad just when you changed the IP. It about has to be IP timing. Agreed Listen to OK Don. You don't have to go through the brain damage of drip tube timing. Just take off the valve cover and the #1 injection line. turn the engine over slowly (in the operating direction, CW facing the front of the engine.) and watch the cam lopes on #1. Exhaust is at the front of the engine, and #1 intake is the second lobe.After the intake lobe pushed the intake valve open and then lets it close, clear the fuel out of the taperec part of the top of the DV union on the top of the IP. You can blow this out with a soda straw, or soak it up with a paper towel. then turn the engine vey slowly until you see fuel start to rise in the small part of the DV union. This IS the beginning of delivery. Now read the cranshaft damper degree wheel at the pointer. It should be the setting for start of delivery or a couple of degrees late. If you don't get fuel, and you continue to turn the engine over until the exhaust valve opens and fuel is delivered about the time the exhaust valve closes, your IP is 360º out of time on the crank, or 180º out of time on the IP shaft. While this method is not 100% accurate for timing the IP, it WILL tell you if you are in the ballpark. I repeat it several times, because each time I can get closer to the actual start of injection. I used this method for timing OM 621s for years and I could get it within 1/2 degree of drip tube timing without all the hassle, or the danger of introducing dirt in the IP when you remove the DV for the trip tube timing by the book. If your timing is within 5 or even 10 degrees, you won't get the symptoms you describe. These engines are pretty forgiving. If timing is the issue, it was to be WAY out to get those symptoms. THat is why I asked a couple weeks ago how many times has this guy successfully changed IPs. It is a relevant question even if it makes you uncomfortable. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Mike Esh wrote: I have done many other things on my cars and I always enjoy the learning that takes place. I have little knowledge or experience with the injection pump and no one close by that could help me get through it the first time. I am learning more as we go from my mechanic and this forum. I will probably try it myself if I get the opportunity again. Thanks, Mike Ever work on a coil and distributor ignition system? It's like replacing a distributor, except it weighs 30lb and cleanliness is really, really important. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
One of the wonderful things (IMO) about 123 and 126 MBZ cars is how they can be maintained by an amateur mechanic. Probably true of 124s too but I never owned one. In the end, rust, parts availability, and old age (of the mechanic) are the limiting factors. One of these days, good used 617 engines will be a thing of the past. The electrical technology is stone-age, but my 30+ year-old SD provides almost all of the features of the latest cars. Scott -Original Message- From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of WILTON Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 3:17 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. That's why were all here listening and chiming in occasionally. 'Always enjoy learning, thank you. ;) Wilton - Original Message - From: Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 12:45 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle. Hey Mike, Sounds like you are learning a valuable lesson that all of us that don't know should.With a 30 year old German car you are much better off just learning to do the job yourself. Not trying to rub it in or anything like that. Just hoping other lurkers may learn from your/our experiences as a group. Thanks for posting, ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Scott Ritchey ritche...@nc.rr.com wrote: The electrical technology is stone-age, but my 30+ year-old SD provides almost all of the features of the latest cars. My 27-year-old W124 provides features that I've seen on very few new cars, like the puddle lights, remote rear-seat headrests, and the mini sunshade that flips down to fill the gap above the inside rear-view mirror. And why doesn't every manufacturer now use the seat-shaped power seat controls on the door? I've only seen them on M-Bs and, of all cars, Hyundais--everyone else still puts them down low on the side of the seat base where you have to operate them by feel, an ergonomic disaster. Alex ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Has the crank damper slipped, leaving no relationship between the timing marks and the actual crank position? Any chance the timing chain skipped some teeth when the IP was out of the car? Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Mitch Haley wrote: Has the crank damper slipped, leaving no relationship between the timing marks and the actual crank position? Any chance the timing chain skipped some teeth when the IP was out of the car? And thirdly, does the engine now stumble and smoke when the original IP is put back in? If so, I'd worry more about the installation than the pump. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the installer - doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with alternators from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble. I like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube! THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not go bad just when you changed the IP. It about has to be IP timing. Agreed Listen to OK Don. You don't have to go through the brain damage of drip tube timing. Just take off the valve cover and the #1 injection line. turn the engine over slowly (in the operating direction, CW facing the front of the engine.) and watch the cam lopes on #1. Exhaust is at the front of the engine, and #1 intake is the second lobe.After the intake lobe pushed the intake valve open and then lets it close, clear the fuel out of the taperec part of the top of the DV union on the top of the IP. You can blow this out with a soda straw, or soak it up with a paper towel. then turn the engine vey slowly until you see fuel start to rise in the small part of the DV union. This IS the beginning of delivery. Now read the cranshaft damper degree wheel at the pointer. It should be the setting for start of delivery or a couple of degrees late. If you don't get fuel, and you continue to turn the engine over until the exhaust valve opens and fuel is delivered about the time the exhaust valve closes, your IP is 360º out of time on the crank, or 180º out of time on the IP shaft. While this method is not 100% accurate for timing the IP, it WILL tell you if you are in the ballpark. I repeat it several times, because each time I can get closer to the actual start of injection. I used this method for timing OM 621s for years and I could get it within 1/2 degree of drip tube timing without all the hassle, or the danger of introducing dirt in the IP when you remove the DV for the trip tube timing by the book. If your timing is within 5 or even 10 degrees, you won't get the symptoms you describe. These engines are pretty forgiving. If timing is the issue, it was to be WAY out to get those symptoms. THat is why I asked a couple weeks ago how many times has this guy successfully changed IPs. It is a relevant question even if it makes you uncomfortable. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Nice. I will store that info away in the back of my brain for future use. Does sound odd that 3 pumps are not working. Very curious to know what would happen if original pump was put back on. Seeing there is so much trouble I would not have a problem at all asking how many of these jobs he has successfully completed. He should not have a problem with answering honestly as he should understand your doubts. Mike On Jul 1, 2013 12:05 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the installer - doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with alternators from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble. I like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube! THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not go bad just when you changed the IP. It about has to be IP timing. Agreed Listen to OK Don. You don't have to go through the brain damage of drip tube timing. Just take off the valve cover and the #1 injection line. turn the engine over slowly (in the operating direction, CW facing the front of the engine.) and watch the cam lopes on #1. Exhaust is at the front of the engine, and #1 intake is the second lobe.After the intake lobe pushed the intake valve open and then lets it close, clear the fuel out of the taperec part of the top of the DV union on the top of the IP. You can blow this out with a soda straw, or soak it up with a paper towel. then turn the engine vey slowly until you see fuel start to rise in the small part of the DV union. This IS the beginning of delivery. Now read the cranshaft damper degree wheel at the pointer. It should be the setting for start of delivery or a couple of degrees late. If you don't get fuel, and you continue to turn the engine over until the exhaust valve opens and fuel is delivered about the time the exhaust valve closes, your IP is 360º out of time on the crank, or 180º out of time on the IP shaft. While this method is not 100% accurate for timing the IP, it WILL tell you if you are in the ballpark. I repeat it several times, because each time I can get closer to the actual start of injection. I used this method for timing OM 621s for years and I could get it within 1/2 degree of drip tube timing without all the hassle, or the danger of introducing dirt in the IP when you remove the DV for the trip tube timing by the book. If your timing is within 5 or even 10 degrees, you won't get the symptoms you describe. These engines are pretty forgiving. If timing is the issue, it was to be WAY out to get those symptoms. THat is why I asked a couple weeks ago how many times has this guy successfully changed IPs. It is a relevant question even if it makes you uncomfortable. __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
I will try your method tomorrow to see how close the timing is. Then I will work with mechanic directly to get this car back on the road. I will also ask about experience with these diesel pumps. Mike On Jul 1, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Dieselhead wrote: Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the installer - doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with alternators from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble. I like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube! THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not go bad just when you changed the IP. It about has to be IP timing. Agreed Listen to OK Don. You don't have to go through the brain damage of drip tube timing. Just take off the valve cover and the #1 injection line. turn the engine over slowly (in the operating direction, CW facing the front of the engine.) and watch the cam lopes on #1. Exhaust is at the front of the engine, and #1 intake is the second lobe.After the intake lobe pushed the intake valve open and then lets it close, clear the fuel out of the taperec part of the top of the DV union on the top of the IP. You can blow this out with a soda straw, or soak it up with a paper towel. then turn the engine vey slowly until you see fuel start to rise in the small part of the DV union. This IS the beginning of delivery. Now read the cranshaft damper degree wheel at the pointer. It should be the setting for start of delivery or a couple of degrees late. If you don't get fuel, and you continue to turn the engine over until the exhaust valve opens and fuel is delivered about the time the exhaust valve closes, your IP is 360º out of time on the crank, or 180º out of time on the IP shaft. While this method is not 100% accurate for timing the IP, it WILL tell you if you are in the ballpark. I repeat it several times, because each time I can get closer to the actual start of injection. I used this method for timing OM 621s for years and I could get it within 1/2 degree of drip tube timing without all the hassle, or the danger of introducing dirt in the IP when you remove the DV for the trip tube timing by the book. If your timing is within 5 or even 10 degrees, you won't get the symptoms you describe. These engines are pretty forgiving. If timing is the issue, it was to be WAY out to get those symptoms. THat is why I asked a couple weeks ago how many times has this guy successfully changed IPs. It is a relevant question even if it makes you uncomfortable. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Update - I changed the injectors and there was no change. Installed new/used/unmolested ALDA, it actually runs a little worse. I drove it today about 20 miles on the highway. It started very hard and would not not stay running without pushing the accelerator to the floor until it started to gain rpm's. Once on the road it continued to smoke and top speed was 60 mph with very low power. Tomorrow I will pop the valve cover and check the timing using the non-drip method. Michael E. Esh 231-286-2344 On Jul 1, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the installer - doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with alternators from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble. I like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube! THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not go bad just when you changed the IP. It about has to be IP timing. Agreed Listen to OK Don. You don't have to go through the brain damage of drip tube timing. Just take off the valve cover and the #1 injection line. turn the engine over slowly (in the operating direction, CW facing the front of the engine.) and watch the cam lopes on #1. Exhaust is at the front of the engine, and #1 intake is the second lobe.After the intake lobe pushed the intake valve open and then lets it close, clear the fuel out of the taperec part of the top of the DV union on the top of the IP. You can blow this out with a soda straw, or soak it up with a paper towel. then turn the engine vey slowly until you see fuel start to rise in the small part of the DV union. This IS the beginning of delivery. Now read the cranshaft damper degree wheel at the pointer. It should be the setting for start of delivery or a couple of degrees late. If you don't get fuel, and you continue to turn the engine over until the exhaust valve opens and fuel is delivered about the time the exhaust valve closes, your IP is 360º out of time on the crank, or 180º out of time on the IP shaft. While this method is not 100% accurate for timing the IP, it WILL tell you if you are in the ballpark. I repeat it several times, because each time I can get closer to the actual start of injection. I used this method for timing OM 621s for years and I could get it within 1/2 degree of drip tube timing without all the hassle, or the danger of introducing dirt in the IP when you remove the DV for the trip tube timing by the book. If your timing is within 5 or even 10 degrees, you won't get the symptoms you describe. These engines are pretty forgiving. If timing is the issue, it was to be WAY out to get those symptoms. THat is why I asked a couple weeks ago how many times has this guy successfully changed IPs. It is a relevant question even if it makes you uncomfortable. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Hey Mike, Sounds like you are learning a valuable lesson that all of us that don't know should.With a 30 year old German car you are much better off just learning to do the job yourself. Not trying to rub it in or anything like that. Just hoping other lurkers may learn from your/our experiences as a group. Thanks for posting, Mike On Jul 1, 2013 11:29 PM, Mike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Update - I changed the injectors and there was no change. Installed new/used/unmolested ALDA, it actually runs a little worse. I drove it today about 20 miles on the highway. It started very hard and would not not stay running without pushing the accelerator to the floor until it started to gain rpm's. Once on the road it continued to smoke and top speed was 60 mph with very low power. Tomorrow I will pop the valve cover and check the timing using the non-drip method. Michael E. Esh 231-286-2344 On Jul 1, 2013, at 12:02 PM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the installer - doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with alternators from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble. I like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube! THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not go bad just when you changed the IP. It about has to be IP timing. Agreed Listen to OK Don. You don't have to go through the brain damage of drip tube timing. Just take off the valve cover and the #1 injection line. turn the engine over slowly (in the operating direction, CW facing the front of the engine.) and watch the cam lopes on #1. Exhaust is at the front of the engine, and #1 intake is the second lobe.After the intake lobe pushed the intake valve open and then lets it close, clear the fuel out of the taperec part of the top of the DV union on the top of the IP. You can blow this out with a soda straw, or soak it up with a paper towel. then turn the engine vey slowly until you see fuel start to rise in the small part of the DV union. This IS the beginning of delivery. Now read the cranshaft damper degree wheel at the pointer. It should be the setting for start of delivery or a couple of degrees late. If you don't get fuel, and you continue to turn the engine over until the exhaust valve opens and fuel is delivered about the time the exhaust valve closes, your IP is 360º out of time on the crank, or 180º out of time on the IP shaft. While this method is not 100% accurate for timing the IP, it WILL tell you if you are in the ballpark. I repeat it several times, because each time I can get closer to the actual start of injection. I used this method for timing OM 621s for years and I could get it within 1/2 degree of drip tube timing without all the hassle, or the danger of introducing dirt in the IP when you remove the DV for the trip tube timing by the book. If your timing is within 5 or even 10 degrees, you won't get the symptoms you describe. These engines are pretty forgiving. If timing is the issue, it was to be WAY out to get those symptoms. THat is why I asked a couple weeks ago how many times has this guy successfully changed IPs. It is a relevant question even if it makes you uncomfortable. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
If the ALDA was not shimmed properly I suppose there could be too much fuel? But timing would also be suspect. On Saturday, June 29, 2013, OK Don wrote: Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the installer - doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with alternators from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble. I like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube! THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not go bad just when you changed the IP. It about has to be IP timing. On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Michael Esh michael...@mac.comjavascript:; wrote: Peter Others, Thank you all for the information and ideas. I changed out the injectors last night and it made no difference at all. I did adjust the alda all the way closed and the car would not idle or achieve and rpm 2500 and was not drivable. When I moved it back out (ccw) it would run and it returned to the normal terrible running status we have been battling since the new used injection pump was in installed. I was then called to dinner. I plan on changing out the alda with one that is unmolested (thanks Mitch) on Sunday. Is there a good write up on how to check to see where I stand on this issue. I have never adjusted the timing and do not intend to try to change it. I plan on taking it back into the mechanic on Monday and trying a few adjustments. Thanks Mike On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:13 PM, Peter Frederick wrote: You must use the drip tube method to check this, and be very careful to have the injection occur on the compression, not exhaust stroke. -- OK Don 2013 F150, 19 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 45 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Peter Others, Thank you all for the information and ideas. I changed out the injectors last night and it made no difference at all. I did adjust the alda all the way closed and the car would not idle or achieve and rpm 2500 and was not drivable. When I moved it back out (ccw) it would run and it returned to the normal terrible running status we have been battling since the new used injection pump was in installed. I was then called to dinner. I plan on changing out the alda with one that is unmolested (thanks Mitch) on Sunday. Is there a good write up on how to check to see where I stand on this issue. I have never adjusted the timing and do not intend to try to change it. I plan on taking it back into the mechanic on Monday and trying a few adjustments. Thanks Mike p.s. I fried the alternator in my 78 MGB yesterday when I jumped it after leaving the lights on. I inadvertently hooked up cables up backwards and shorted it out. (Yes, I know better) I am not having much luck with my cars lately. On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:13 PM, Peter Frederick wrote: This was discussed recently. There are some injection pumps out there that are marked for timing INCORRECTLY with the result that if you use the normal procedure, the pump will be 180 degrees out of time, firing the injectors on the top of the exhaust stroke instead of the injection stroke. The engine will not start at low temps, will run rough, and smoke like hell with low power. You must use the drip tube method to check this, and be very careful to have the injection occur on the compression, not exhaust stroke. If the pump timing is indeed correct by the drip tube method (which detects the point at which the pump plunger covers the fill slot in the sleeve, start of delivery), you should check the CAMSHAFT timing to make sure it's not a tooth (or two) late. You should also verify that you have proper valve clearance, as tight valves will give you low compression and hence huge smoke and no power. If the car has EGR. disconnect the vacuum line to the EGR valve and make sure it closes. A stuck EGR will give terrible smoke (as in you cannot see the car behind you on acceleration), very low power, and funny muffled knocking, but no other effects. Typically once you have some speed on the engine power will come back up under light load. On a newly installed IP, my guess would be something wrong with the timing unless the car was also running poorly before you replaced the IP. If it's been run any significant time on pure veggie oil, you need to check the compression and the condition of the pre-chambers too -- veg oil is notorious for coking up the entire fuel system along with very serious varnish formation in the IP. Plugged prechambers will prevent normal operation. That coke may burn out if you get it to run decently on diesel fuel, but likely if present will require removal and cleaning of the pre-chambers. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Mike, Sounds like the ALDA is doing it's job. What timing method is the mechanic using? I would seriously do a Diesel-Purge treatment before adjusting anything. I would think that both pumps could be gummed up after setting for a couple years. Are you 100% sure you don't have a bad rubber fuel line sucking in air somewhere? Air can make all sorts of wierd stuff happen. I thought I had a bad injector pump once...poured water over it and it ran better. Noticed I did not see fuel movement in the filter nor any pulses in the cigar tube. Changed out the lift pump and it was way better. Was back to acting up in a few days but water did not seem to have any effect any more. Noticed a couple air bubbles in the filter so got to checking lines. The rubber was cracked inside, lengthwise, so it was letting in a bit of air. Fixed that with new line and all better. Een good so far. Mike On Jun 29, 2013 9:02 AM, Michael Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Peter Others, Thank you all for the information and ideas. I changed out the injectors last night and it made no difference at all. I did adjust the alda all the way closed and the car would not idle or achieve and rpm 2500 and was not drivable. When I moved it back out (ccw) it would run and it returned to the normal terrible running status we have been battling since the new used injection pump was in installed. I was then called to dinner. I plan on changing out the alda with one that is unmolested (thanks Mitch) on Sunday. Is there a good write up on how to check to see where I stand on this issue. I have never adjusted the timing and do not intend to try to change it. I plan on taking it back into the mechanic on Monday and trying a few adjustments. Thanks Mike p.s. I fried the alternator in my 78 MGB yesterday when I jumped it after leaving the lights on. I inadvertently hooked up cables up backwards and shorted it out. (Yes, I know better) I am not having much luck with my cars lately. On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:13 PM, Peter Frederick wrote: This was discussed recently. There are some injection pumps out there that are marked for timing INCORRECTLY with the result that if you use the normal procedure, the pump will be 180 degrees out of time, firing the injectors on the top of the exhaust stroke instead of the injection stroke. The engine will not start at low temps, will run rough, and smoke like hell with low power. You must use the drip tube method to check this, and be very careful to have the injection occur on the compression, not exhaust stroke. If the pump timing is indeed correct by the drip tube method (which detects the point at which the pump plunger covers the fill slot in the sleeve, start of delivery), you should check the CAMSHAFT timing to make sure it's not a tooth (or two) late. You should also verify that you have proper valve clearance, as tight valves will give you low compression and hence huge smoke and no power. If the car has EGR. disconnect the vacuum line to the EGR valve and make sure it closes. A stuck EGR will give terrible smoke (as in you cannot see the car behind you on acceleration), very low power, and funny muffled knocking, but no other effects. Typically once you have some speed on the engine power will come back up under light load. On a newly installed IP, my guess would be something wrong with the timing unless the car was also running poorly before you replaced the IP. If it's been run any significant time on pure veggie oil, you need to check the compression and the condition of the pre-chambers too -- veg oil is notorious for coking up the entire fuel system along with very serious varnish formation in the IP. Plugged prechambers will prevent normal operation. That coke may burn out if you get it to run decently on diesel fuel, but likely if present will require removal and cleaning of the pre-chambers. Peter ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Michael Canfield wrote: I would seriously do a Diesel-Purge treatment before adjusting anything. I would think that both pumps could be gummed up after setting for a couple years. Purge was mentioned when he was having trouble with my IP, but I never heard if it was used. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Since this problem started with the installation of another IP, and persists with a second IP, I would be very suspicious of the installer - doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result! Now, it is possible that you have two defective IPs, I've had that with alternators from FLAPS, but used Bosch IPs don't usually give that kind of trouble. I like the suggestion of checking the timing with the drip tube! THe ALDA, injectors, etc. did not go bad just when you changed the IP. It about has to be IP timing. On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Michael Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Peter Others, Thank you all for the information and ideas. I changed out the injectors last night and it made no difference at all. I did adjust the alda all the way closed and the car would not idle or achieve and rpm 2500 and was not drivable. When I moved it back out (ccw) it would run and it returned to the normal terrible running status we have been battling since the new used injection pump was in installed. I was then called to dinner. I plan on changing out the alda with one that is unmolested (thanks Mitch) on Sunday. Is there a good write up on how to check to see where I stand on this issue. I have never adjusted the timing and do not intend to try to change it. I plan on taking it back into the mechanic on Monday and trying a few adjustments. Thanks Mike On Jun 28, 2013, at 6:13 PM, Peter Frederick wrote: You must use the drip tube method to check this, and be very careful to have the injection occur on the compression, not exhaust stroke. -- OK Don 2013 F150, 19 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 45 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Mechanic is adjusting the timing to help it but we are not having much success. I drove it home last night and it blew black smoke all the way and would not get above 65 miles an hour. Very low power. Could this be caused by the injectors? This is a two tank veg-oil car currently running on diesel. I can switch fuels at will and I will not introduce the veg-oil until I get this sorted out. Any suggestions on next steps would be welcome. This is the second injection pump we have installed. The first one behaved similarly only much worse. Michael E. Esh me...@horizonenv.com michael...@mac.com http://www.yugster.com/invite/138123 (C) 231.286.2344 On Jun 28, 2013, at 12:25 AM, Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote: The injection pump is installed in the 84 300D however it is belching black smoke until the turbo kicks in, then it takes off and the smoke clears up. We are adjusting the injection timing and rack dampener bolt in effort to clear this up. Any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks Mike Michael E. Esh 231-286-2344 Why would the timing be off? IP was just installed? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Other info for those who forgot the history: This car did not smoke when the original pump was in it a few weeks ago, it was running fine on WVO when I saw it. It had a lot of WVO run through it, and had been stalling when hot, would run again if he threw cold water on the IP. I sold him a 123 IP, probably from a '81 wagon, that had been sitting in a box since I bought it on eBay several years ago. It ran so badly on my IP that several people wondered if it was 360 degrees out of time. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Thanks for the help Mitch. I have not changed the Alda yet, I plan on trying that and different injectors after work today. Michael E. Esh On Jun 28, 2013, at 07:43 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Other info for those who forgot the history: This car did not smoke when the original pump was in it a few weeks ago, it was running fine on WVO when I saw it. It had a lot of WVO run through it, and had been stalling when hot, would run again if he threw cold water on the IP. I sold him a 123 IP, probably from a '81 wagon, that had been sitting in a box since I bought it on eBay several years ago. It ran so badly on my IP that several people wondered if it was 360 degrees out of time. Mitch. ___ ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Isn't the ALDA supposed to control fuel at low speed with no boost? Black smoke and no power sounds like too much fuel or not enough air. Is the turbo spooling up? Could be timing advanced too far I guess. Mike On Jun 28, 2013 7:48 AM, Mike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Thanks for the help Mitch. I have not changed the Alda yet, I plan on trying that and different injectors after work today. Michael E. Esh On Jun 28, 2013, at 07:43 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Other info for those who forgot the history: This car did not smoke when the original pump was in it a few weeks ago, it was running fine on WVO when I saw it. It had a lot of WVO run through it, and had been stalling when hot, would run again if he threw cold water on the IP. I sold him a 123 IP, probably from a '81 wagon, that had been sitting in a box since I bought it on eBay several years ago. It ran so badly on my IP that several people wondered if it was 360 degrees out of time. Mitch. __**_ __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Check that hose from the intake manifold to the ALDA too, it sends boost pressure and if it is clogged or not connected properly that can cause all kinds of power issues. --R On 6/28/13 10:09 AM, Michael Canfield wrote: Isn't the ALDA supposed to control fuel at low speed with no boost? Black smoke and no power sounds like too much fuel or not enough air. Is the turbo spooling up? Could be timing advanced too far I guess. Mike On Jun 28, 2013 7:48 AM, Mike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Thanks for the help Mitch. I have not changed the Alda yet, I plan on trying that and different injectors after work today. Michael E. Esh On Jun 28, 2013, at 07:43 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Other info for those who forgot the history: This car did not smoke when the original pump was in it a few weeks ago, it was running fine on WVO when I saw it. It had a lot of WVO run through it, and had been stalling when hot, would run again if he threw cold water on the IP. I sold him a 123 IP, probably from a '81 wagon, that had been sitting in a box since I bought it on eBay several years ago. It ran so badly on my IP that several people wondered if it was 360 degrees out of time. Mitch. __**_ __**_ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/**archive/http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/**mailman/listinfo/mercedes_**okiebenz.comhttp://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] Black smoke and loping at idle.
Yes, I understand it is supposed to control fuel flow at low speed w/out boost. I am looking for any solution at this point and will try almost anything. We have tried adjusting the timing back and forth to get a steady idle and power at speed. Nothing is working correctly at this time. It is very frustrating. Is over fueling a symptom of a worn pump? I am very close to purchasing another injection pump. Does anyone have a newly rebuilt or a known good one? Michael E. Esh (C) 231.286.2344 On Jun 28, 2013, at 10:09 AM, Michael Canfield slozuk...@gmail.com wrote: Isn't the ALDA supposed to control fuel at low speed with no boost? Black smoke and no power sounds like too much fuel or not enough air. Is the turbo spooling up? Could be timing advanced too far I guess. Mike On Jun 28, 2013 7:48 AM, Mike Esh michael...@mac.com wrote: Thanks for the help Mitch. I have not changed the Alda yet, I plan on trying that and different injectors after work today. Michael E. Esh On Jun 28, 2013, at 07:43 AM, Mitch Haley m...@voyager.net wrote: Other info for those who forgot the history: This car did not smoke when the original pump was in it a few weeks ago, it was running fine on WVO when I saw it. It had a lot of WVO run through it, and had been stalling when hot, would run again if he threw cold water on the IP. I sold him a 123 IP, probably from a '81 wagon, that had been sitting in a box since I bought it on eBay several years ago. It ran so badly on my IP that several people wondered if it was 360 degrees out of time. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
