Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
Scott wrote: Still a great essay from the Colonel. ... ...Thanks to two big oceans, relatively peaceful neighbors north and south, and a half-century American age of relative world peace... Our fine borders have not been tested. Not even close. Some suggest some buildings in NYC was a test, others challenge that suggestion. Given a challenge, I suggest that our neighborhoods will stand when push and shove begin. Talk about fat lazy people, I suggest the boroughs in Europe were fat lazy when storm-troopers marched there. Here? - the fundamental only means is as WILTON quoted from General Diem or whomever - media has turned away from a free expression in to pure indoctrination that demands and indoctrinates us to be unwilling to do what is needed with and for each other. Rather, we are willing to let the top down government do everything. Somehow, I suggest that while most neighborhoods are currently dysfunctional, most neighborhoods would defend and deny storm troopers regardless of ethnicity. Additionally, most neighborhoods desire diversity of ideas rather than be like we are told about ISIS. I am skeptical of the stories of ISIS. And... I don't think anyone here has bad thoughts about the WILTON tome - thanks WILTON!! mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
Where do you reside? My top down government won't take my trash out. On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Mountain Man via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: Scott wrote: Still a great essay from the Colonel. ... ...Thanks to two big oceans, relatively peaceful neighbors north and south, and a half-century American age of relative world peace... Our fine borders have not been tested. Not even close. Some suggest some buildings in NYC was a test, others challenge that suggestion. Given a challenge, I suggest that our neighborhoods will stand when push and shove begin. Talk about fat lazy people, I suggest the boroughs in Europe were fat lazy when storm-troopers marched there. Here? - the fundamental only means is as WILTON quoted from General Diem or whomever - media has turned away from a free expression in to pure indoctrination that demands and indoctrinates us to be unwilling to do what is needed with and for each other. Rather, we are willing to let the top down government do everything. Somehow, I suggest that while most neighborhoods are currently dysfunctional, most neighborhoods would defend and deny storm troopers regardless of ethnicity. Additionally, most neighborhoods desire diversity of ideas rather than be like we are told about ISIS. I am skeptical of the stories of ISIS. And... I don't think anyone here has bad thoughts about the WILTON tome - thanks WILTON!! mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
Thanks for the kind words. Wilton - Original Message - From: Mountain Man via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2014 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought Scott wrote: Still a great essay from the Colonel. ... ...Thanks to two big oceans, relatively peaceful neighbors north and south, and a half-century American age of relative world peace... Our fine borders have not been tested. Not even close. Some suggest some buildings in NYC was a test, others challenge that suggestion. Given a challenge, I suggest that our neighborhoods will stand when push and shove begin. Talk about fat lazy people, I suggest the boroughs in Europe were fat lazy when storm-troopers marched there. Here? - the fundamental only means is as WILTON quoted from General Diem or whomever - media has turned away from a free expression in to pure indoctrination that demands and indoctrinates us to be unwilling to do what is needed with and for each other. Rather, we are willing to let the top down government do everything. Somehow, I suggest that while most neighborhoods are currently dysfunctional, most neighborhoods would defend and deny storm troopers regardless of ethnicity. Additionally, most neighborhoods desire diversity of ideas rather than be like we are told about ISIS. I am skeptical of the stories of ISIS. And... I don't think anyone here has bad thoughts about the WILTON tome - thanks WILTON!! mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
A wise man once said: Governments and diapers should both be changed often, for the same reason My Mercedes are working well.. don't need any parts.. have no issues at present.. Thanks for the civil conversation to everyone.. Grant... On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 1:26 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: Where do you reside? My top down government won't take my trash out. On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Mountain Man via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: Scott wrote: Still a great essay from the Colonel. ... ...Thanks to two big oceans, relatively peaceful neighbors north and south, and a half-century American age of relative world peace... Our fine borders have not been tested. Not even close. Some suggest some buildings in NYC was a test, others challenge that suggestion. Given a challenge, I suggest that our neighborhoods will stand when push and shove begin. Talk about fat lazy people, I suggest the boroughs in Europe were fat lazy when storm-troopers marched there. Here? - the fundamental only means is as WILTON quoted from General Diem or whomever - media has turned away from a free expression in to pure indoctrination that demands and indoctrinates us to be unwilling to do what is needed with and for each other. Rather, we are willing to let the top down government do everything. Somehow, I suggest that while most neighborhoods are currently dysfunctional, most neighborhoods would defend and deny storm troopers regardless of ethnicity. Additionally, most neighborhoods desire diversity of ideas rather than be like we are told about ISIS. I am skeptical of the stories of ISIS. And... I don't think anyone here has bad thoughts about the WILTON tome - thanks WILTON!! mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
[MBZ] OT but food for thought
THE TRAGEDY AND THE WALL By Wilton Strickland, Lt Col, USAF (Ret) The tragedy of the Vietnam War is exceeded by only slavery and the Civil War as this nation’s greatest tragedy. Not only were thousands of fine, young Americans sacrificed needlessly, sent into harm’s way by a government with no commitment to a resolution to the conflict, the conflict divided the country like nothing else but the Civil War. The tragedy is best illustrated by the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, the black granite wall in Washington, DC, which has etched into it more than 58 thousand names of the real heroes of the war. Members of their families are also heroes who still suffer from the perpetual absence of their loved ones who have never returned. Thousands of children have grown up never knowing their fathers and grandfathers, and thousands of children and grandchildren of the victims have never been born and never will be. Many families have waited 45 years and more not knowing the fates of their lost loved-ones, and many will never know. The suffering continues. To get a proper feel for this tragedy and to help us better understand and to remember, every American should visit the Memorial, study those names etched into it and think very seriously about how they got there. Let me quickly review some of the events and policies that put them there, starting with the French, who have had a strong influence and presence in the areas of Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam since the mid 1800‘s. For many years, the area was even known as French Indochina. During WWII, the area was captured and occupied by the Japanese. After WWII, the French tried to reassert control, but meanwhile, a Communist insurgency led by Ho Chi Minh had gained strong influence, and a civil war erupted. The United States began to provide military aid to the French in Vietnam in 1950, but the Communist forces defeated the French at Dien Bien Phu in 1954, and Viet Nam was divided into North and South Vietnam along a demilitarized zone just south of the 17th parallel with a Communist government in the North and a government friendly to the United States in the South. South Vietnam immediately began asking the United States for support against Communist influence and insurgency from the North - the first being given in 1955. The insurgency in the South was originally conducted by local forces friendly to the North and were known as Viet Minh (also Viet Cong). Later, many North Vietnamese troops were also directly involved. As the insurgency increased, the United States gradually increased aid to South Vietnam, including military supplies, equipment and military advisors working closely with the South Vietnamese Army and Air Force. By late 1962, I was living in Georgia as an Air Force lieutenant on a B-52 combat crew. There I spent about a third of my time on alert with B-52’s loaded with nuclear weapons ready to launch at a moment’s notice and strike targets in the Soviet Union. By 1963 and ‘64, I began to see articles in the “Atlanta Constitution” newspaper about American military advisors being killed in Vietnam. This was very disturbing to me. I could so easily remember the stalemate that dragged on for years in Korea without a resolution only 10 to 12 years or so before. I was afraid that the conflict in Vietnam would get bogged down into the same type of indecisiveness. I felt that, because of the way that it was going to be conducted, i. e., piecemeal and haphazardly, we should not get involved in Vietnam, but if we were going to be involved, we should be quick and decisive about it. We were easing into a war that most Americans didn’t even know about. Those who did know about it didn’t seem to care as long as it was somebody else’s son, brother, husband, cousin or friend who was getting killed, hurt or taken prisoner. Then in Aug of ‘64, there were two incidents that led to much greater American involvement - American war ships in international waters in the Gulf of Tonkin off of N. Vietnam were confronted and fired upon by several N. Vietnamese torpedo boats. The American ships returned fire and sank one of the boats. A couple of nights later, nervous and “antsy” RADAR operators on the American ships in the same area saw what they thought were the N. Vietnamese boats again and the Americans fired wildly on them. Thorough investigation years later confirmed that there were no N. Vietnamese boats there that night - they turned out to have been imagined - caused by spurious returns on the ships‘ RADAR and anxious operators. Meanwhile, Congress passed the Gulf of Tokin Resolution that granted President Johnson authority to assist any Southeast Asian country whose government was considered to be jeopardized by Communist aggression.” Johnson used this resolution as legal justification for greatly increasing and deploying additional U.S. forces to the area
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:02:09 -0400 WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: THE TRAGEDY AND THE WALL By Wilton Strickland, Lt Col, USAF (Ret) Not a silly Sondy tale, but thank you, Wilton. We had conducted the most intense bombing campaign ever against the most heavily-defended complex in history. I was confident that the campaign was over, that it had been won and that the war was finally ending as we departed Hanoi for the last time. During the following two years, however, after US forces had withdrawn, Congress gave away what had been so dearly won. And we are about to get into another situation like Vietnam and Afghanistan. Years ago, we trained the mujhadeen in Afghanistan to fight for us. What did that get for us? Hardened adversaries using our weapons and training against us. In Syria, training and supplying the rebels to do our fighting for us has all the hallmarks of both Vietnam and Afghanistan. With as loose and convoluted things are among the Muslim in the mid-East, it is very likely the weapons we provide will be used against our troops or Israeli troops. In trying to take a short cut for a quick, easy solution -- no American boots on the ground -- we are setting ourselves up for even more long-term grief in the mid-East. Even North Vietnam’s military commander, Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, agreed with me “What we still don’t understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi (in Dec ‘72). If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender! It was the same at the battle of TET in ’68. You defeated us! We knew it, and we thought you knew it. But we were elated that your media was helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could on the battlefields. We were ready to surrender. You had won!” General Giap merely confirmed what many Americans already knew. The Vietnam War was not lost on the battlefields in Vietnam — it was lost at home by public opinion and given away by Congress. And there it is. The media were and still are against the best interests of the American people. They are only interested in keeping themselves and their cronies in power. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
I am not a raging militarist, but how can we turn our backs on the barbarism that is ISIS? On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Craig via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:02:09 -0400 WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: THE TRAGEDY AND THE WALL By Wilton Strickland, Lt Col, USAF (Ret) Not a silly Sondy tale, but thank you, Wilton. We had conducted the most intense bombing campaign ever against the most heavily-defended complex in history. I was confident that the campaign was over, that it had been won and that the war was finally ending as we departed Hanoi for the last time. During the following two years, however, after US forces had withdrawn, Congress gave away what had been so dearly won. And we are about to get into another situation like Vietnam and Afghanistan. Years ago, we trained the mujhadeen in Afghanistan to fight for us. What did that get for us? Hardened adversaries using our weapons and training against us. In Syria, training and supplying the rebels to do our fighting for us has all the hallmarks of both Vietnam and Afghanistan. With as loose and convoluted things are among the Muslim in the mid-East, it is very likely the weapons we provide will be used against our troops or Israeli troops. In trying to take a short cut for a quick, easy solution -- no American boots on the ground -- we are setting ourselves up for even more long-term grief in the mid-East. Even North Vietnam’s military commander, Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, agreed with me “What we still don’t understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi (in Dec ‘72). If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender! It was the same at the battle of TET in ’68. You defeated us! We knew it, and we thought you knew it. But we were elated that your media was helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could on the battlefields. We were ready to surrender. You had won!” General Giap merely confirmed what many Americans already knew. The Vietnam War was not lost on the battlefields in Vietnam — it was lost at home by public opinion and given away by Congress. And there it is. The media were and still are against the best interests of the American people. They are only interested in keeping themselves and their cronies in power. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
I say we take off and nuke the whole site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. --R On 9/17/14 4:30 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote: I am not a raging militarist, but how can we turn our backs on the barbarism that is ISIS? ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
As civilized humans it is our duty to recognize deadly threats and respond with suitable deadly force to preserve both ourselves and civilization. That is a basic human right given by our Creator [insert your own religious belief here, or not] that has survived every advance and decline of humanity. It is so basic it has nothing to do with raging militarist, in my humble opinion. Having lived among the muslim world for more than a decade, I understand the culture of violence that encapsulates, perhaps better than others. FWIW, isis can only be crushed for civilization to survive where ever isis touches. Respectfully, Grant... On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: I am not a raging militarist, but how can we turn our backs on the barbarism that is ISIS? On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Craig via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:02:09 -0400 WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: THE TRAGEDY AND THE WALL By Wilton Strickland, Lt Col, USAF (Ret) Not a silly Sondy tale, but thank you, Wilton. We had conducted the most intense bombing campaign ever against the most heavily-defended complex in history. I was confident that the campaign was over, that it had been won and that the war was finally ending as we departed Hanoi for the last time. During the following two years, however, after US forces had withdrawn, Congress gave away what had been so dearly won. And we are about to get into another situation like Vietnam and Afghanistan. Years ago, we trained the mujhadeen in Afghanistan to fight for us. What did that get for us? Hardened adversaries using our weapons and training against us. In Syria, training and supplying the rebels to do our fighting for us has all the hallmarks of both Vietnam and Afghanistan. With as loose and convoluted things are among the Muslim in the mid-East, it is very likely the weapons we provide will be used against our troops or Israeli troops. In trying to take a short cut for a quick, easy solution -- no American boots on the ground -- we are setting ourselves up for even more long-term grief in the mid-East. Even North Vietnam’s military commander, Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, agreed with me “What we still don’t understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi (in Dec ‘72). If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender! It was the same at the battle of TET in ’68. You defeated us! We knew it, and we thought you knew it. But we were elated that your media was helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could on the battlefields. We were ready to surrender. You had won!” General Giap merely confirmed what many Americans already knew. The Vietnam War was not lost on the battlefields in Vietnam — it was lost at home by public opinion and given away by Congress. And there it is. The media were and still are against the best interests of the American people. They are only interested in keeping themselves and their cronies in power. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
A heartfelt thank you to WIlton for his posting. I also have friends at the Wall, and have given that salute of respect. In my case, I went from 2 tours Vietnam to 7 years of Afghanistan, working with Mujhadeen and Pashtun tribes in Northern Tribal Territories of Pakistan, followed by other postings in Iran, Turkey, Saudi, etc etc.. All the vacation hot spots of the world.. Even today, I can remember the smell of pita bread toasted over a camel dung fire and goat meat.. yep.. lovely... with a side of open sewer... On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:41 PM, G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com wrote: As civilized humans it is our duty to recognize deadly threats and respond with suitable deadly force to preserve both ourselves and civilization. That is a basic human right given by our Creator [insert your own religious belief here, or not] that has survived every advance and decline of humanity. It is so basic it has nothing to do with raging militarist, in my humble opinion. Having lived among the muslim world for more than a decade, I understand the culture of violence that encapsulates, perhaps better than others. FWIW, isis can only be crushed for civilization to survive where ever isis touches. Respectfully, Grant... On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: I am not a raging militarist, but how can we turn our backs on the barbarism that is ISIS? On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Craig via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:02:09 -0400 WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: THE TRAGEDY AND THE WALL By Wilton Strickland, Lt Col, USAF (Ret) Not a silly Sondy tale, but thank you, Wilton. We had conducted the most intense bombing campaign ever against the most heavily-defended complex in history. I was confident that the campaign was over, that it had been won and that the war was finally ending as we departed Hanoi for the last time. During the following two years, however, after US forces had withdrawn, Congress gave away what had been so dearly won. And we are about to get into another situation like Vietnam and Afghanistan. Years ago, we trained the mujhadeen in Afghanistan to fight for us. What did that get for us? Hardened adversaries using our weapons and training against us. In Syria, training and supplying the rebels to do our fighting for us has all the hallmarks of both Vietnam and Afghanistan. With as loose and convoluted things are among the Muslim in the mid-East, it is very likely the weapons we provide will be used against our troops or Israeli troops. In trying to take a short cut for a quick, easy solution -- no American boots on the ground -- we are setting ourselves up for even more long-term grief in the mid-East. Even North Vietnam’s military commander, Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, agreed with me “What we still don’t understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi (in Dec ‘72). If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender! It was the same at the battle of TET in ’68. You defeated us! We knew it, and we thought you knew it. But we were elated that your media was helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could on the battlefields. We were ready to surrender. You had won!” General Giap merely confirmed what many Americans already knew. The Vietnam War was not lost on the battlefields in Vietnam — it was lost at home by public opinion and given away by Congress. And there it is. The media were and still are against the best interests of the American people. They are only interested in keeping themselves and their cronies in power. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
fight fight fight fight fight fight On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 4:41 PM, G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: As civilized humans it is our duty to recognize deadly threats and respond with suitable deadly force to preserve both ourselves and civilization. That is a basic human right given by our Creator [insert your own religious belief here, or not] that has survived every advance and decline of humanity. It is so basic it has nothing to do with raging militarist, in my humble opinion. Having lived among the muslim world for more than a decade, I understand the culture of violence that encapsulates, perhaps better than others. FWIW, isis can only be crushed for civilization to survive where ever isis touches. Respectfully, Grant... On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: I am not a raging militarist, but how can we turn our backs on the barbarism that is ISIS? On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Craig via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:02:09 -0400 WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: THE TRAGEDY AND THE WALL By Wilton Strickland, Lt Col, USAF (Ret) Not a silly Sondy tale, but thank you, Wilton. We had conducted the most intense bombing campaign ever against the most heavily-defended complex in history. I was confident that the campaign was over, that it had been won and that the war was finally ending as we departed Hanoi for the last time. During the following two years, however, after US forces had withdrawn, Congress gave away what had been so dearly won. And we are about to get into another situation like Vietnam and Afghanistan. Years ago, we trained the mujhadeen in Afghanistan to fight for us. What did that get for us? Hardened adversaries using our weapons and training against us. In Syria, training and supplying the rebels to do our fighting for us has all the hallmarks of both Vietnam and Afghanistan. With as loose and convoluted things are among the Muslim in the mid-East, it is very likely the weapons we provide will be used against our troops or Israeli troops. In trying to take a short cut for a quick, easy solution -- no American boots on the ground -- we are setting ourselves up for even more long-term grief in the mid-East. Even North Vietnam’s military commander, Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, agreed with me “What we still don’t understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi (in Dec ‘72). If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender! It was the same at the battle of TET in ’68. You defeated us! We knew it, and we thought you knew it. But we were elated that your media was helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could on the battlefields. We were ready to surrender. You had won!” General Giap merely confirmed what many Americans already knew. The Vietnam War was not lost on the battlefields in Vietnam — it was lost at home by public opinion and given away by Congress. And there it is. The media were and still are against the best interests of the American people. They are only interested in keeping themselves and their cronies in power. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. -- *reliable vendor of superior parts for mercedes and other european cars* *www.BuyEUROparts.com http://www.BuyEUROparts.com*
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 16:30:17 -0400 Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: I am not a raging militarist, but how can we turn our backs on the barbarism that is ISIS? I am not saying that we should. If you read my email, you would have seen, more than once, the phrase, do our fighting for us. That should have been a clue to my position. Yes, the Muslims, when they do all that the Koran says, are a viscious lot and not the religion of peace. It is a right and proper thing to use military force, in conjunction with other nations, to stop the barbarism, but we cannot take short-cuts and expect others to do our fighting for us, particularly Muslims against their bretheren. The only way for true peace in the mid-East, however, is for all to acknowledge the Prince of Peace and turn to Him for forgiveness and cleansing. All other methods will ultimately be futile. Unfortunately, our nation is turning away from Him and forgetting what made it great. If we continue, we likewise will have problems. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
I think ISIS needs to be stopped but I don't think its US that needs to be doing it. The Iraqis threw us out, they and their arab brethren need to stand up and take care of their own problems. We have no business fixing the worlds problems. For one we're not very good at it and for two we really can't afford it either monetarily or from a waste of human life perspective. Iraq has become my generation's Vietnam, all those lives wasted and what do we have to show for it? By any reasonable measure the plight of the average Iraqi is worse today than it was 15 years ago. -Curt From: Craig via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 16:30:17 -0400 Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: I am not a raging militarist, but how can we turn our backs on the barbarism that is ISIS? I am not saying that we should. If you read my email, you would have seen, more than once, the phrase, do our fighting for us. That should have been a clue to my position. Yes, the Muslims, when they do all that the Koran says, are a viscious lot and not the religion of peace. It is a right and proper thing to use military force, in conjunction with other nations, to stop the barbarism, but we cannot take short-cuts and expect others to do our fighting for us, particularly Muslims against their bretheren. The only way for true peace in the mid-East, however, is for all to acknowledge the Prince of Peace and turn to Him for forgiveness and cleansing. All other methods will ultimately be futile. Unfortunately, our nation is turning away from Him and forgetting what made it great. If we continue, we likewise will have problems. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
you can get lynched for that kinda talk in most of 'merka, boy On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Craig via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 16:30:17 -0400 Andrew Strasfogel astrasfo...@gmail.com wrote: I am not a raging militarist, but how can we turn our backs on the barbarism that is ISIS? I am not saying that we should. If you read my email, you would have seen, more than once, the phrase, do our fighting for us. That should have been a clue to my position. Yes, the Muslims, when they do all that the Koran says, are a viscious lot and not the religion of peace. It is a right and proper thing to use military force, in conjunction with other nations, to stop the barbarism, but we cannot take short-cuts and expect others to do our fighting for us, particularly Muslims against their bretheren. The only way for true peace in the mid-East, however, is for all to acknowledge the Prince of Peace and turn to Him for forgiveness and cleansing. All other methods will ultimately be futile. Unfortunately, our nation is turning away from Him and forgetting what made it great. If we continue, we likewise will have problems. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. -- *reliable vendor of superior parts for mercedes and other european cars* *www.BuyEUROparts.com http://www.BuyEUROparts.com* ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
Curt, I've asked several Iraqis point blank: did America do the right thing? The answer they gave me is Yes!. The Iraqis didn't throw us out, Barack Hussein Obama made it a campaign pledge to pull us out. Iraq very much wanted to negotiate an agreement for our troops to stay, it was Obama who ended those negotiations. Max Dillon, Charleston SC On Sep 17, 2014 5:20 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: Iraq has become my generation's Vietnam, all those lives wasted and what do we have to show for it? By any reasonable measure the plight of the average Iraqi is worse today than it was 15 years ago. -Curt ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 17:22:43 -0400 Gary Hurst jabbahur...@gmail.com wrote: you can get lynched for that kinda talk in most of 'merka, boy And that's the problem to which I was referring. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
Andrew Strasfogel wrote: I am not a raging militarist, but how can we turn our backs on the barbarism that is ISIS? Wiltons story is a personal view of the war, and that's understandable since he was heavily involved in it. If one takes an objective view of both wars that were fought in S.E.Asia, it's reasonable to say that they were justified because they stopped the spread of communism in that area. The policy involved in fighting these wars has been placed on the officer corp of WW-2 who saw the fallacy of isolationism during the 1930s. Their conclusion was that it is better to take the war to the enemy rather than wait for the enemy to bring the war to us . This is obviously what we have done in both S.E.Asia, and the Middle East. Was this the best policy then, and is it still the best policy? Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
RANT If you go back several centuries, you'll find that the Christians were the raging barbarism force of the time (crusades). I think the root of all evil is religion inflicted on others (other than psychopaths). All religious states/governments need to be eliminated at once, and for all time. (Israel included). Live by your own religion WITHOUT inflicting it on anyone else. If you are against abortion, don't have one, but keep your beliefs to yourself. Do not try to legislate your beliefs into law to be applied to others. /RANT On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:30 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: I am not a raging militarist, but how can we turn our backs on the barbarism that is ISIS? On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Craig via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:02:09 -0400 WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: THE TRAGEDY AND THE WALL By Wilton Strickland, Lt Col, USAF (Ret) Not a silly Sondy tale, but thank you, Wilton. We had conducted the most intense bombing campaign ever against the most heavily-defended complex in history. I was confident that the campaign was over, that it had been won and that the war was finally ending as we departed Hanoi for the last time. During the following two years, however, after US forces had withdrawn, Congress gave away what had been so dearly won. And we are about to get into another situation like Vietnam and Afghanistan. Years ago, we trained the mujhadeen in Afghanistan to fight for us. What did that get for us? Hardened adversaries using our weapons and training against us. In Syria, training and supplying the rebels to do our fighting for us has all the hallmarks of both Vietnam and Afghanistan. With as loose and convoluted things are among the Muslim in the mid-East, it is very likely the weapons we provide will be used against our troops or Israeli troops. In trying to take a short cut for a quick, easy solution -- no American boots on the ground -- we are setting ourselves up for even more long-term grief in the mid-East. Even North Vietnam’s military commander, Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, agreed with me “What we still don’t understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi (in Dec ‘72). If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender! It was the same at the battle of TET in ’68. You defeated us! We knew it, and we thought you knew it. But we were elated that your media was helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could on the battlefields. We were ready to surrender. You had won!” General Giap merely confirmed what many Americans already knew. The Vietnam War was not lost on the battlefields in Vietnam — it was lost at home by public opinion and given away by Congress. And there it is. The media were and still are against the best interests of the American people. They are only interested in keeping themselves and their cronies in power. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. -- OK Don NSA: The only branch of government that actually listens to US citizens! There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers* 2013 F150, 18 mpg 2012 Passat TDI DSG, 44 mpg 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph! ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
Great questions ... in looking only backward, the decision to keep war in other countries and not let it come to America, delivered by our enemies, was a good one. Most American citizens alive today have never seen war except what Hollywood gives them, have never held a compression bandage on their badly injured friend while bleeding themselves, or smelled war [it has a smell never forgotten]. So in a backward look, yes. In a practical sense, many American young men have been sacrificed on the altar of good for the sake of those who have never felt, sensed, or smelled, war. IMHO every Ipod should open with a salute to those who gave so those who didn't will remember... [won't happen, I know]. While we were off fighting communist, communist were quite busy here in America changing the public through slow erosion of socialism. Example: ACLU was founded by members of American Communist Party with the express purpose of eroding the Constitution. Didn't know that? Look it up. About 1954 the leader of the American Communist Party stated they should dissolve since the Democrat party was serving them better and drawing less attention to their socialist platform.. yep... So.. looking forward... we lost on two fronts... at home and at the foreign countries were we lost blood and treasure and friends... The opinions expressed here are my own.. yours may differ.. Respectfully Grant... On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:06 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: Andrew Strasfogel wrote: I am not a raging militarist, but how can we turn our backs on the barbarism that is ISIS? Wiltons story is a personal view of the war, and that's understandable since he was heavily involved in it. If one takes an objective view of both wars that were fought in S.E.Asia, it's reasonable to say that they were justified because they stopped the spread of communism in that area. The policy involved in fighting these wars has been placed on the officer corp of WW-2 who saw the fallacy of isolationism during the 1930s. Their conclusion was that it is better to take the war to the enemy rather than wait for the enemy to bring the war to us . This is obviously what we have done in both S.E.Asia, and the Middle East. Was this the best policy then, and is it still the best policy? Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
Ohh boy, now we have politics and religion on the discussion table:) It's all Wiltons fault for mentioning the war, I may have mentioned it once but I think I got away with it. Anyway, regarding the 'temporary' troop withdrawal from Iraq. My vague recollection of this was that it was decided before President Obama came into office http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.%E2%80%93Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement And yes Max we can see that your trying to put some sort of xenophobic spin on it, this is the sort of thing that lets to heated debates, perhaps we should try and stick to the facts? Fact is that a republican president decided to invade a sovereign country on the basis that the regime in that country was involved in the terrorist attack on 9/11 and had WMD. Neither of which where ever proven to be true. Then the spin turned to liberation of the Iraq people but there was no clear plan on how to achieve this and perhaps no clear understanding of the dynamics of Iraq. In some ways the US has a simplistic view, insofar that they think, 'we kicked the British out and lived happily ever after' so if we give others that sort of opportunity it will work out well. However one of the key differences is that America was a young country with lots of opportunity and the people there pretty much had a common goal (especially since they mostly had a common background). Whereas in most other countries there are centuries old rivalries between the different ethnic groups and all those groups are trying to grab as much for themselves as they can. Plus throw into the mix some religious nut jobs who appeal to the young who have no job and can see no future and you get a nasty brew. However the real question is how do you fix the mess, sure send in the troops, wipe out as much of ISIS as you can and then declare job done again but then another group of nutters will jump up and cycle will repeat. President Bush junior had a lot of years to achieve some sort of stability in Iraq but no, lets blame Obama because he is a democrat and has a sort of foreign name. Hendrik who sometimes mixes fact with fiction On 18/09/14 07:06, Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote: Curt, I've asked several Iraqis point blank: did America do the right thing? The answer they gave me is Yes!. The Iraqis didn't throw us out, Barack Hussein Obama made it a campaign pledge to pull us out. Iraq very much wanted to negotiate an agreement for our troops to stay, it was Obama who ended those negotiations. Max Dillon, Charleston SC ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
We can not and should not. It's already late. Wilton - Original Message - From: Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com To: Craig diese...@pisquared.net; Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought I am not a raging militarist, but how can we turn our backs on the barbarism that is ISIS? On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Craig via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 14:02:09 -0400 WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: THE TRAGEDY AND THE WALL By Wilton Strickland, Lt Col, USAF (Ret) Not a silly Sondy tale, but thank you, Wilton. We had conducted the most intense bombing campaign ever against the most heavily-defended complex in history. I was confident that the campaign was over, that it had been won and that the war was finally ending as we departed Hanoi for the last time. During the following two years, however, after US forces had withdrawn, Congress gave away what had been so dearly won. And we are about to get into another situation like Vietnam and Afghanistan. Years ago, we trained the mujhadeen in Afghanistan to fight for us. What did that get for us? Hardened adversaries using our weapons and training against us. In Syria, training and supplying the rebels to do our fighting for us has all the hallmarks of both Vietnam and Afghanistan. With as loose and convoluted things are among the Muslim in the mid-East, it is very likely the weapons we provide will be used against our troops or Israeli troops. In trying to take a short cut for a quick, easy solution -- no American boots on the ground -- we are setting ourselves up for even more long-term grief in the mid-East. Even North Vietnam’s military commander, Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, agreed with me “What we still don’t understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi (in Dec ‘72). If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender! It was the same at the battle of TET in ’68. You defeated us! We knew it, and we thought you knew it. But we were elated that your media was helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could on the battlefields. We were ready to surrender. You had won!” General Giap merely confirmed what many Americans already knew. The Vietnam War was not lost on the battlefields in Vietnam — it was lost at home by public opinion and given away by Congress. And there it is. The media were and still are against the best interests of the American people. They are only interested in keeping themselves and their cronies in power. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
OK Don wrote: RANT If you go back several centuries, you'll find that the Christians were the raging barbarism force of the time (crusades). ... Live by your own religion WITHOUT inflicting it on anyone else. If you are against abortion, don't have one, but keep your beliefs to yourself. /RANT Yeah, that's gonna happen. Your RANT is entirely correct. Diversity? - whas dat?! What happened to diversity? ISIS, Sunni, Shiite, christian, etc - sounds diverse, eh? Let it be. If some want to behead others, yeah, see how far that goes. But we were elated that your media was helping us. - General Giap quoting from WILTON. ISIS, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, VietNam - we have been there and done that. How did that work out? Whatever General Giap said remains true - very sad for a nation so proud of its tech sector which essentially supplants a rational mind. Quoting Gary: fight fight fight fight fight fight - shall we try again and see how that works? What does it take for us to hear Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower speak about Military Industrial Complex? We have failed. We have failed in too many arenas to enumerate. This is no longer the land of the free, home of the brave. We are idiots - watch us try the same action again and expect a different result. - ??That makes good sense? Stay away from ISIS caliphate. We have our caliphate - let there be diversity, let them have their caliphate. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
Wow! It doesn't take long for this group to implode! Since some people say the reason we are in the Middle East is OIL!, let's stir some of that in and really get everyones cajones in an uproar. (Just kidding!) In the meantime, I've lost something and would really be grateful if one of the computer experts on the list would help me find it. It's the back box in Firefox. It's driving me almost as crazy as when one of my old VW Beetles lost its backup gear. I can still hear the UF students laughing while I pushed it out of a parking space at the Thirsty Gator. I've looked everywhere, tried everything, and can't imagine where it got off to. Really getting tired of having to reload a website every time I want to go back one page. Thanks in advance, Gerry Hendrik and Fay wrote: Ohh boy, now we have politics and religion on the discussion table:) It's all Wiltons fault for mentioning the war, I may have mentioned it once but I think I got away with it. Anyway, regarding the 'temporary' troop withdrawal from Iraq. My vague recollection of this was that it was decided before President Obama came into office http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.%E2%80%93Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement And yes Max we can see that your trying to put some sort of xenophobic spin on it, this is the sort of thing that lets to heated debates, perhaps we should try and stick to the facts? Fact is that a republican president decided to invade a sovereign country on the basis that the regime in that country was involved in the terrorist attack on 9/11 and had WMD. Neither of which where ever proven to be true. Then the spin turned to liberation of the Iraq people but there was no clear plan on how to achieve this and perhaps no clear understanding of the dynamics of Iraq. In some ways the US has a simplistic view, insofar that they think, 'we kicked the British out and lived happily ever after' so if we give others that sort of opportunity it will work out well. However one of the key differences is that America was a young country with lots of opportunity and the people there pretty much had a common goal (especially since they mostly had a common background). Whereas in most other countries there are centuries old rivalries between the different ethnic groups and all those groups are trying to grab as much for themselves as they can. Plus throw into the mix some religious nut jobs who appeal to the young who have no job and can see no future and you get a nasty brew. However the real question is how do you fix the mess, sure send in the troops, wipe out as much of ISIS as you can and then declare job done again but then another group of nutters will jump up and cycle will repeat. President Bush junior had a lot of years to achieve some sort of stability in Iraq but no, lets blame Obama because he is a democrat and has a sort of foreign name. Hendrik who sometimes mixes fact with fiction On 18/09/14 07:06, Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote: Curt, I've asked several Iraqis point blank: did America do the right thing? The answer they gave me is Yes!. The Iraqis didn't throw us out, Barack Hussein Obama made it a campaign pledge to pull us out. Iraq very much wanted to negotiate an agreement for our troops to stay, it was Obama who ended those negotiations. Max Dillon, Charleston SC ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8230 - Release Date: 09/17/14 -- arche...@embarqmail.com arche...@embarqmail.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
The issue is not so much why they are there but the big question is how to go about making some real progress towards stability in the region but we better not discuss that. Anyway when you say you lost the back box, do you mean the actual arrows or will foxy just not remember where it was a few minutes ago? Can you go back by right clicking a page and selecting back? Haven't used foxy in a while as it became too bloated, chrome has spat a dummy after an upgrade so i am using chromium at the moment. Hendrik who gets frustrated with all this high tech stuff sometimes On 18/09/14 11:36, archer75--- via Mercedes wrote: Wow! It doesn't take long for this group to implode! Since some people say the reason we are in the Middle East is OIL!, let's stir some of that in and really get everyones cajones in an uproar. (Just kidding!) In the meantime, I've lost something and would really be grateful if one of the computer experts on the list would help me find it. It's the back box in Firefox. It's driving me almost as crazy as when one of my old VW Beetles lost its backup gear. I can still hear the UF students laughing while I pushed it out of a parking space at the Thirsty Gator. I've looked everywhere, tried everything, and can't imagine where it got off to. Really getting tired of having to reload a website every time I want to go back one page. Thanks in advance, Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
Hendrik and Fay wrote: The issue is not so much why they are there but the big question is how to go about making some real progress towards stability in the region but we better not discuss that. Anyway when you say you lost the back box, do you mean the actual arrows Gerry: Ya, I lost the arrows. or will foxy just not remember where it was a few minutes ago? Can you go back by right clicking a page and selecting back? G: Ya, it will do that and it remembers the page, but I'm so used to clicking the arrowAnyway, I can get used to right clicking if nobody knows. Haven't used foxy in a while as it became too bloated, chrome has spat a dummy after an upgrade so i am using chromium at the moment. G: Chrome I know. What is chromium? I tried Chrome when it first came out and found it a little too simple. I'll have to try it again. Hendrik who gets frustrated with all this high tech stuff sometimes ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
Before this thread spirals into the great dustbin at some No Such Agency data storage facility.. one last bit... Mid East has never been stable in recorded history, far beyond the 1,435 years ago when islam was invented by a caravan robber named muhammed, and since, there has been no peace and no progress of organized unified civilization. We in the Great Western Culture want quick, simple, easy answers. There are none. All solutions for that region will involve more than one lifetime to achieve, and we as a collective set of nations just don't have the patience to achieve that. Thus, it will evolve into a violent set of actions [my prediction, yours may vary]. ISIS / ISIL ¿ whatever they wish to call themselves, has a plan which will not stay in their region.. it clearly requires the conquest of the Western Civilization and it's conversion to islam.. which I believe is not an acceptable choice for the majority in the West.. They will not stay on their turf and be happy.. as much as we wish they would.. we can not appease them by leaving them alone.. ISIS, under other names is already well populated within the borders of USA and UK, France, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Canada, and Australia. Their marching orders are laid on already.. ours are still fumbling in confusion [comforted yet?]... I'm not. The following countries were taken by conquest of the sword for the furtherance of islam, Spain, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, India [over 80,000,000 Hindu killed], Lebanon, the list is much longer, but it illustrates my point. If you read history of each of these countries you will see a pattern of attack was followed by the followers of muhammed, which is being once again replicated. Scared yet? Concerned? I am, it may impact my ability to own and enjoy an antique Mercedes. On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 7:16 PM, Hendrik and Fay via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: The issue is not so much why they are there but the big question is how to go about making some real progress towards stability in the region but we better not discuss that. Anyway when you say you lost the back box, do you mean the actual arrows or will foxy just not remember where it was a few minutes ago? Can you go back by right clicking a page and selecting back? Haven't used foxy in a while as it became too bloated, chrome has spat a dummy after an upgrade so i am using chromium at the moment. Hendrik who gets frustrated with all this high tech stuff sometimes On 18/09/14 11:36, archer75--- via Mercedes wrote: Wow! It doesn't take long for this group to implode! Since some people say the reason we are in the Middle East is OIL!, let's stir some of that in and really get everyones cajones in an uproar. (Just kidding!) In the meantime, I've lost something and would really be grateful if one of the computer experts on the list would help me find it. It's the back box in Firefox. It's driving me almost as crazy as when one of my old VW Beetles lost its backup gear. I can still hear the UF students laughing while I pushed it out of a parking space at the Thirsty Gator. I've looked everywhere, tried everything, and can't imagine where it got off to. Really getting tired of having to reload a website every time I want to go back one page. Thanks in advance, Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
That's the opinion of some well informed retirees here. They believe that if there were no oil or minerals, Western nations would have little interest in the M.E. or Africa, so long as no other major power (Russia,China) moved in. Gerrywho ends his 2 cents on the subject G Mann wrote: Before this thread spirals into the great dustbin at some No Such Agency data storage facility.. one last bit... Mid East has never been stable in recorded history, far beyond the 1,435 years ago when islam was invented by a caravan robber named muhammed, and since, there has been no peace and no progress of organized unified civilization. We in the Great Western Culture want quick, simple, easy answers. There are none. All solutions for that region will involve more than one lifetime to achieve, and we as a collective set of nations just don't have the patience to achieve that. Thus, it will evolve into a violent set of actions [my prediction, yours may vary]. ISIS / ISIL ¿ whatever they wish to call themselves, has a plan which will not stay in their region.. it clearly requires the conquest of the Western Civilization and it's conversion to islam.. which I believe is not an acceptable choice for the majority in the West.. They will not stay on their turf and be happy.. as much as we wish they would.. we can not appease them by leaving them alone.. ISIS, under other names is already well populated within the borders of USA and UK, France, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Canada, and Australia. Their marching orders are laid on already.. ours are still fumbling in confusion [comforted yet?]... I'm not. The following countries were taken by conquest of the sword for the furtherance of islam, Spain, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, India [over 80,000,000 Hindu killed], Lebanon, the list is much longer, but it illustrates my point. If you read history of each of these countries you will see a pattern of attack was followed by the followers of muhammed, which is being once again replicated. Scared yet? Concerned? I am, it may impact my ability to own and enjoy an antique Mercedes. On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 7:16 PM, Hendrik and Fay via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote: The issue is not so much why they are there but the big question is how to go about making some real progress towards stability in the region but we better not discuss that. Anyway when you say you lost the back box, do you mean the actual arrows or will foxy just not remember where it was a few minutes ago? Can you go back by right clicking a page and selecting back? Haven't used foxy in a while as it became too bloated, chrome has spat a dummy after an upgrade so i am using chromium at the moment. Hendrik who gets frustrated with all this high tech stuff sometimes On 18/09/14 11:36, archer75--- via Mercedes wrote: Wow! It doesn't take long for this group to implode! Since some people say the reason we are in the Middle East is OIL!, let's stir some of that in and really get everyones cajones in an uproar. (Just kidding!) In the meantime, I've lost something and would really be grateful if one of the computer experts on the list would help me find it. It's the back box in Firefox. It's driving me almost as crazy as when one of my old VW Beetles lost its backup gear. I can still hear the UF students laughing while I pushed it out of a parking space at the Thirsty Gator. I've looked everywhere, tried everything, and can't imagine where it got off to. Really getting tired of having to reload a website every time I want to go back one page. Thanks in advance, Gerry ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4015/8230 - Release Date: 09/17/14 -- arche...@embarqmail.com arche...@embarqmail.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
Re: [MBZ] OT but food for thought
Still a great essay from the Colonel. The debacle that was Viet Nam is less an indictment of war than an indictment of the way that particular non-war was defined and prosecuted. Even a casual review of world history will tell you that sustained peace is not normal unless a superpower oversees things. Consider this. A vanishing minority of Americans has any first-hand experience with actual war. No living Americans except some immigrants have any experience living through war their own back yard. Thanks to two big oceans, relatively peaceful neighbors north and south, and a half-century American age of relative world peace, the vast majority of fat, lazy, cell-phone addicted Americans are clueless when it comes to the depths of evil in the world. But if we continue on the current course, I think they may learn. Scott -Original Message- From: WILTON via Mercedes Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 2:02 PM THE TRAGEDY AND THE WALL By Wilton Strickland, Lt Col, USAF (Ret) The tragedy of the Vietnam War is exceeded by only slavery and the Civil War as this nation’s greatest tragedy. Not only were thousands of fine, young Americans sacrificed needlessly, sent into harm’s way by a government with no commitment to a resolution to the conflict, the conflict divided the country like nothing else but the Civil War. ... ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com All posts are the result of individual contributors and as such, those individuals are responsible for the content of the post. The list owner has no control over the content of the messages of each contributor.
