Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
On 7/11/19 4:23 am, Jan Stary wrote: > On Nov 03 11:55:21, secli...@boxdan.com wrote: >> Not sure about the original poster but I would be interested in any >> end-to-end encrypted video/audio/chat programs that are available. > > On this general purpose operating system, > the following is in a base install: > > aucat ... | ssh user@host 'aucat ...' > video ... | ssh user@host 'video ...' Latency and video-audio synchronisation might be a bit of a crap-shoot with such a set-up. -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
On Nov 03 11:55:21, secli...@boxdan.com wrote: > Not sure about the original poster but I would be interested in any > end-to-end encrypted video/audio/chat programs that are available. On this general purpose operating system, the following is in a base install: aucat ... | ssh user@host 'aucat ...' video ... | ssh user@host 'video ...'
Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
On Sun, Nov 03, 2019 at 11:12:48AM +, Andrew Luke Nesbit wrote: On 03/11/2019 10:55, Frank Beuth wrote: Not sure about the original poster but I would be interested in any end-to-end encrypted video/audio/chat programs that are available. Have a look at Tox. It might work out for you on a technical level. Are Tox and/or Matrix available on OpenBSD? I only see a FreeBSD version of Tox, while 'matrix' is a fairly generic name so hard to say.
Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
On 5/11/19 2:19 pm, Frank Beuth wrote: > On Sun, Nov 03, 2019 at 11:12:48AM +, Andrew Luke Nesbit wrote: >> On 03/11/2019 10:55, Frank Beuth wrote: >>> Not sure about the original poster but I would be interested in >>> any end-to-end encrypted video/audio/chat programs that are >>> available. >> >> Have a look at Tox. It might work out for you on a technical level. > > Are Tox and/or Matrix available on OpenBSD? I only see a FreeBSD version > of Tox, http://openports.se/search.php?stype=description=Tox > while 'matrix' is a fairly generic name so hard to say. Searching "matrix instant messenger" took me to their site, and a short amount of browsing took me to https://matrix.org/clients None of those showed up in the OpenPorts listings, but you might be able to compile at least one of them. -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
On 2019-11-03 05:15, Stefan Sperling wrote: On Sat, Nov 02, 2019 at 02:47:16PM -0700, Jordan Geoghegan wrote: Assuming Firefox or chromium on OpenBSD has WebRTC support (havent checked in a while), talky.io should work. It's a free website that supports WebRTC chats. I've used it in the past with great success. The www/nextcloud port with the 'Talk' add-on, and with telephony/turnserver, can be used to self-host a WebRTC server on OpenBSD. That's really cool, thanks for mentioning that. I'm going to go try setting up a Nextcloud WebRTC server now :p
Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
On 3/11/19 11:27 pm, Jonathan Drews wrote: > The woman offering the class uses Skype so I am probably going to have to use > Windows. I have a laptop with Windows 10 but I hardly ever use it. Windows is > a big step down in performance when compared to OpenBSD. > I thought Skype used a protocol that allowed other clients to connect to it > then I read the Wikipedia page on Skype. The technology is owned by Microsoft. Yeah, Skype uses its own proprietary protocol. Not sure if there's ever been an effort to reverse engineer it. Skype was a start-up company originally, which was then bought by eBay, then later sold to Microsoft. There was clients for Linux, MacOS X and Windows years ago, not sure what their status is today. I haven't touched Skype myself since 2012, last time I did was on MacOS X 10.6. I hear there's a WebRTC version. If the browsers available for OpenBSD are capable of this too, that might be your best bet, otherwise you're more-or-less snookered: you'll have to run Skype either in a VM, alternate OS on the same computer (dual-boot), or install it on a separate computer. -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019, Jonathan Drews wrote: I thought Skype used a protocol that allowed other clients to connect to it then I read the Wikipedia page on Skype. The technology is owned by Microsoft. A standard is SIP. Then a solution would be something like: https://kb.asipto.com/kamailio:skype-like-service-in-less-than-one-hour
Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
>I thought Skype used a protocol that allowed other clients to connect >to it then I read the Wikipedia page on Skype. The technology is owned >by Microsoft. Many moons ago you could at least chat with other clients, but you also had to run Skype itself. It was more or less remote controlling the official client. This is maybe what you are remembering. -- Greetings, Florian Viehweger
Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
Dear Mr. Drews, > The woman offering the class uses Skype so I am probably going to have to use > Windows. I have a laptop with > Skype usually runs well on Linux. It may run on FreeBSD too, although I have never looked into that. One trick that I use is to run Skype on my Android phone. Yours sincerely, Xianwen
Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2019 at 7:51 AM > From: "Stuart Longland" > To: misc@openbsd.org > Subject: Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD > > On 3/11/19 7:35 am, Jonathan Drews wrote: > > Is there an alternative to Skype that runs on OpenBSD? I looked in > > http://openports.se/ > > and didn't see anything. I want to take online classes nad need a video > > conferencingsoftware > > Do you need any video conferencing software (i.e. the group running the > online class is willing to switch to whatever you can get working?), or > do you specifically need Skype? The woman offering the class uses Skype so I am probably going to have to use Windows. I have a laptop with Windows 10 but I hardly ever use it. Windows is a big step down in performance when compared to OpenBSD. I thought Skype used a protocol that allowed other clients to connect to it then I read the Wikipedia page on Skype. The technology is owned by Microsoft. > -- > Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) > > I haven't lost my mind... > ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere. > >
Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
On Sat, Nov 02, 2019 at 02:47:16PM -0700, Jordan Geoghegan wrote: > Assuming Firefox or chromium on OpenBSD has WebRTC support (havent checked > in a while), talky.io should work. It's a free website that supports WebRTC > chats. I've used it in the past with great success. The www/nextcloud port with the 'Talk' add-on, and with telephony/turnserver, can be used to self-host a WebRTC server on OpenBSD.
Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 03/11/2019 10:55, Frank Beuth wrote: > Not sure about the original poster but I would be interested in > any end-to-end encrypted video/audio/chat programs that are > available. Have a look at Tox. It might work out for you on a technical level. I don't use Tox. I got involved with the project's development and I left very quickly. Personally I don't even want to be a user if I can help it. This is my own personal issue. If you check it out I sincerely hope you have a better experience than I did. Sociotechnologically it is an important project and I hope it succeeds on that level in the long run. Andrew - -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQGzBAEBCgAdFiEE/ASxpcFcqIVqgGgxgfJdKbhCoRcFAl2+tisACgkQgfJdKbhC oRdBugv+P/BIwuNWxmC0kEDiQUWt/E6TjXDwToMch71w0VsWASzM9dUErBTBMOhM BsW2s4J+vbec9PWlBqKogPcU57OlqnzPQgqiBQiCfsf/405DpSIfQcC/U/ZNTG3W RBiWzXFRKzfO3hbRQq8G5Q+mPB9fOffmJLJDosTDdSiPefdPNuH6ClcTTpi98pEZ 67ZQhTAE1IZp6pB1t124LMAz50VRY7mfPYuZBqLCPzFmpflilB0qjWmoH0T9BgMa hFQl8Yd/Bv5ypDTH3n13SsR9uXBR1wGic5j0XmZbaKtygn2eGfZqKBwLCmt+Cfvm ESLP3lG89hK95KstxIRFbPoWhsp+zuMCooIXr62Ik/a0FqHLw8nj9HQCv4FnAoQY KObNvTXsoQec5ojDoRWfPtM+LtjQJ+pYD6xEMYT04OPTKg5/K+HyOaVwCcZFzqdI IpdnO8TeKjNA/qLDAd3z49xgzet+IJDKUYx380XJDSVENkZcz2FNsIrhghXny4lQ ZA0JuJhZ =QUzB -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
Frank Beuth [2019-11-03 11:55:21 +0100]: > Not sure about the original poster but I would be interested in any > end-to-end encrypted video/audio/chat programs that are available. Matrix may be interesting https://matrix.org/ It has ETE chat, but I am not sure about audio/video. It is possible to host synapse on OpenBSD (I do it), but to be honest it feels rather cumbersome. Synapse is written in Python and is rather slow.[^1] There are some other incomplete implementations as well, I think of one them is written in C++. Unfortunately the most complete (reference) client is Riot, which—to my knowledge—can only be used in a browser in OpenBSD. There is also a weechat script, however. In general, to me, it doesn't feel like it's prime time for Matrix yet, but I guess it could work with some better implementations of both clients and servers. I would love to replace Messenger with it to talk with my friends (those willing to change). It also has briding capabilities, for example there is an IRC bridge which I got partially working (I can receive messages from IRC rooms, but I didn't manage to send anything yet). [^1]: On my homeserver I am unable to join to the official #matrix room hosted at matrix.org, trying seems to overload my server, it becomes unresponsive. -- Bertalan Z. Péter FB9B 34FE 3500 3977 92AE 4809 935C 3BEB 44C1 0F89 /"\ \ /ASCII Ribbon Campaign X against HTML email & proprietary attachments / \www.asciiribbon.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
On Sun, Nov 03, 2019 at 04:51:48PM +1000, Stuart Longland wrote: Do you need any video conferencing software (i.e. the group running the online class is willing to switch to whatever you can get working?), or do you specifically need Skype? Not sure about the original poster but I would be interested in any end-to-end encrypted video/audio/chat programs that are available.
Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
On 3/11/19 7:35 am, Jonathan Drews wrote: > Is there an alternative to Skype that runs on OpenBSD? I looked in > http://openports.se/ > and didn't see anything. I want to take online classes nad need a video > conferencingsoftware Do you need any video conferencing software (i.e. the group running the online class is willing to switch to whatever you can get working?), or do you specifically need Skype? -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.
Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
On Sat, Nov 02, 2019 at 10:35:36PM +0100, Jonathan Drews wrote: > Is there an alternative to Skype that runs on OpenBSD? I looked in > http://openports.se/ > and didn't see anything. I want to take online classes nad need a video > conferencingsoftware. --Kind regards,Jonathan It depends what you need for your online classes. Regular video should "just work". For anything else (real video conferencing), use something else; interactive real time audio / video is crap; it doesn't work in the real world. -- Antoine
Re: Skype alternatives for OpenBSD
Assuming Firefox or chromium on OpenBSD has WebRTC support (havent checked in a while), talky.io should work. It's a free website that supports WebRTC chats. I've used it in the past with great success. On 2019-11-02 14:35, Jonathan Drews wrote: Is there an alternative to Skype that runs on OpenBSD? I looked in http://openports.se/ and didn't see anything. I want to take online classes nad need a video conferencingsoftware. --Kind regards,Jonathan
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
Ok, fair enough. I just went through their feature list on the site, my two cents are it should be on by default. I'm not saying anything bad about it though, as I haven't used it. My point still stands though, ultimately the weakest links in any such app will probably be the username/password that you entrust for storage to some entity upon signup, the actual protocol design and implementation of the crypto on the messaging backbone, and depending on that the physical security of the machines involved anywhere along the line. I just don't see why I should *de facto* trust Wengo more than I trust Skype just because they open-sourced their app. That doesn't mean it's either well designed or implemented or that they won't divulge my login details under duress. It's just silly gnuism saying open source is the answer to everything. mike
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
Siju George wrote: On Dec 2, 2007 1:39 PM, Predrag Punosevac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, I was wondering if I could get some feed back about running Skype on the OpenBSD 4.2. (i386 with the generic kernel) I read wonderful article about installation of Skype on OpenBSD http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.os.bsd.india/352 dangs! that was written by me. Though I missed your post :-( and I have couple of questions. I checked the packages (I use packages only on my older rigs) and I see that fedora_base is still for Fedora Core 4.0. When I checked the Skype website I see that the current version 1.4 is for Fedora Core 6.0 There is also Skype Static OSS. I am not sure Skype Static OSS might be even for Solaris despite the fact that is listed under Linux. My assumption is that Fedora Core 6.0 uses ALSA and even worse possibly Linux 2.6 kernel and that probably can not run on OpenBSD. Which one of the two packages should I choose? Should I may be try to find Skype 1.2. Can anyone share hers/his experience in running Skype on OpenBSD. I installed Skype-1.4.0.99 as you can see from the post you mentioned. It was for conferencing in my office with others abroad. Just today I completed Configuring OpenBSD, Asterisk ( IAX2) and Sutart's great port app_conference for conferencing. So there is less interest in Skype. But if it is for personal use ( and not company purposes like mine ) Skype is good. I never got sound right but there are others who can give you a more detailed reply :-) We had a lengthy discussion about Skype as you can check. I was more interested in technical possibility in using Skype and curious about VoIP options for OpenBSD. I stumbled on your article and I decided to ask. What I got was more information than what I was barging for. In the nut shell, I believe that running Skype on OpenBSD box is in complete contrast with my reasons to switch to OpenBSD from FreeBSD on the first place. There might be some serious technical issues with the sound support on OpenBSD for Skype at this point too. I do need to use VoIP however and my decision is to try to use PJSIP which is going to be included in 4.3. As Asterisk is already in the packages I might try to play with that but it seems as a overkill for a personal use. However if I can handle Asterisk, I might be able to get much more out of my computers when it comes to telephony. Can you point me to some initial good reading about Asterisk that will give me good idea about application and get me going. Best, Predrag Thank you so much Kind Regards Siju
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
On Dec 2, 2007 1:39 PM, Predrag Punosevac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, I was wondering if I could get some feed back about running Skype on the OpenBSD 4.2. (i386 with the generic kernel) I read wonderful article about installation of Skype on OpenBSD http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.os.bsd.india/352 dangs! that was written by me. Though I missed your post :-( and I have couple of questions. I checked the packages (I use packages only on my older rigs) and I see that fedora_base is still for Fedora Core 4.0. When I checked the Skype website I see that the current version 1.4 is for Fedora Core 6.0 There is also Skype Static OSS. I am not sure Skype Static OSS might be even for Solaris despite the fact that is listed under Linux. My assumption is that Fedora Core 6.0 uses ALSA and even worse possibly Linux 2.6 kernel and that probably can not run on OpenBSD. Which one of the two packages should I choose? Should I may be try to find Skype 1.2. Can anyone share hers/his experience in running Skype on OpenBSD. I installed Skype-1.4.0.99 as you can see from the post you mentioned. It was for conferencing in my office with others abroad. Just today I completed Configuring OpenBSD, Asterisk ( IAX2) and Sutart's great port app_conference for conferencing. So there is less interest in Skype. But if it is for personal use ( and not company purposes like mine ) Skype is good. I never got sound right but there are others who can give you a more detailed reply :-) Thank you so much Kind Regards Siju
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
Lars NoodC)n [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://forum.skype.com/index.php?showtopic=95261 I have no intention of refueling this debate but I found this an interesting read some time ago: paper by Garfinkel http://skypetips.internetvisitation.org/files/VoIP%20and%20Skype.pdf your link is mostly about Ubuntu users concerned that skype reads /etc/password and greps their .mozilla profiles for proxy settings, which when all is said and done is probably the least of their worries. as for other posts, openwengo does not currently support encryption, and is developed partly by a French company, last I heard French governments were not exactly friendly towards strong crypto. also, wengo do have a vested interest in bashing skype. cheers, mike
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
I'm running wengo 2.1.2, and under the security tab on the configuration page there is an option for call encryption - WengoPhone can encrypt calls using the AES 128-bits encryption system and Diffie-Hellman for key exchange.
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
On 2007/12/02 21:22, Pau Amaro-Seoane wrote: Now that I know that there is pjsua in ports waiting for us (it's only -current), which seems to be compatible for windows and MacOSX and linux, It uses SIP, so the other party can use any SIP-compliant soft phone. sjphone is alright as a closed-sourcee GUI app for the mainstream OS, or there are many others - it is common for open-source soft phones to be fiddly with `uname -s` != Linux but now we have full- duplex audio support in -current, it's mostly now a porting task rather than kernel hacking, so more people know how to help :-) Alternatively you can use a hardware phone (e.g. snom, cisco, grandstream and others) or an ATA and a normal analogue phone. Try voip-info.org to look for options. At first it's probably easiest to learn the client software using a public registrar like FWD, if you want to run your own registrar software (asterisk, SER, I'm looking at porting some others too) that will be easier once you're more familiar with things from the client side.
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
-Urspr|ngliche Nachricht- Von: Daniel Ouellet [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: 02.12.07 17:15:00 An: misc@openbsd.org Betreff: Re: Skype on the OpenBSD Jonathan Schleifer wrote: David Kaye [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you're interested in VoIP, then you might want to look at wengophone, ( http://www.openwengo.com ), it seems to be basically the same thing, but it's GPL'd and the linux version is kept up to date. It might be easier to get working than Skype. Please note that I've not tried to get it working on OpenBSD, I just thought this might be of interest to the list. Sure, there are alternatives, but the problem with them is that they aren't that wide-spread like Skype. It's the same problem from which Jabber suffers :(. Superior technology, but not spread enough. I find this to be an interesting statement here. I hope I miss understood it. So, you may run OpenBSD, I assume this as you are on OpenBSD list, so your choice of OS is then based on it's merit for security most likely, but at the same time, you kind of promote to use buggy software and fell to justify it access to private data, etc that it really have no business doing by the fact that it is widely use and as such you can't run something else? I find this very disturbing at best? So, it's OK to run virus, bad software, compromise stuff because they are in wide spread and alternative would at the moment less convenient until others see the light as well and ditch it? No wonder there is so many compromise computers and servers on the Internet with attitude like that and that it is so hard to fight against BLOB and required to get good quality and bug free software. No intention to offend you in anyway really, that's not my point at all, but honestly I don't get it! The situation at large will only change if you make the choice knowing to force it to change and simply do not accept it to start with. SO, it's ok for anyone at Skype, partners and anyone that compromise Skype software to have access to all your data, private informations, motherboard BIOS, etc and know everything you did in the pass and everything you will do in the future? If that's really the point of convenience you make, may as well run Windows and have no security setup, but let everything open, at a minimum, you wouldn't pretend to try to be secure and protect your privacy, but would knowingly make it public to anyone that care to see it. Again, nothing personal to you or anything like that. It's not my intention at all and if you take it as such, I sure apologies ahead of time. My point is this attitude at large that we see way to often. As long as this attitude stay and we do not say no to this kind of practice, it will never stop and trying to built secure OS OpenBSD or the like, and stop the BLOB is pointless unless users put their integrity together and will use software, hardware and OS that are fit together and respect the same goal. If you run OpenBSD, then I assume may be wrongly, but you want security, so stay in the path and reject anything else including hardware that don't provide documentations and BLOB and software that you can't trust. Pretending to do different is a liar. Hope this provide something to think about. Best, Daniel Daniel, those are some words of wisdom. Nice wakeup call! Thx. STEFAN
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
ropers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you chose to dig your heels in over this, you could sue the German revenue service and very likely win. AFAIK, somebody has already tried that. That's why they granted to send it in using the postal way for a few companies which meet certain conditions. Anyway, quitting the job isn't the best thing to do if you can still keep your job if you run Skype in a VM. I'm happy that I don't have to :). a) Buy (preferably well-documented) hardware for which free and open source drivers exist. AMD started to document their hardware, but still, they haven't released all the required documentation. As soon as they have, I might buy a card from them. And as soon as there a usable drivers, a buy is definite, to show them I support their attitude of releasing specs. b) Write a free and open source driver for your hardware. (Learn to reverse-engineer and program if necessary.) nouveau already does so. It's a *VERY* time consuming task - too much time consuming for me, sadly, but I'd be interested in helping, though. c) Pay someone to write a free and open source driver for your existing hardware Oh, that would be really expensive and I'm low on money :(. It will take ages until someone finishes a WORKING driver WITH 3D support which is completely based on reverse engineering. d) Refuse to play games that require blobs to run. Yup, that's the only possibility for me. But honestly, I prefer to be able to play games and have one blob. Anyway, most games are blobs as well. These are all choices. Not all of them are easy or very comfortable or quick choices, but they are choices. Nobody ever suggested that freedom was free. Yeah, it are choices, but none of them is satisfying. I didn't say (and IIRC Daniel didn't say) that you promoted the use of buggy software. We both DID say that you **sort of** promoted the use of buggy software, and I think that's accurate. Well, I wouldn't call it promoting blobs just because you use one. You repeatedly *proposed* to get rid of them, but actions speak louder than words and you (and I admittedly, I'm ashamed to say) still use some blobs, which is sort of promoting the use of buggy software. All my systems besides my main desktop are blob-free. My laptop is, so is my second desktop, so is my router, so is my EFIKA. So I *am* doing something against it :). If the Jabber-ICQ gateway you use didn't suck, would you then no longer urge people to switch? It's not only the gateway I use which sucks. I already setup my own gateway to get around the too many connections problem. It's the ICQ protocol itself that sucks. Additionally, their server's EULA is unacceptable for me. If I can't convince users to switch to Jabber, I encourage them to use encryption. I think it's a crime to save the logs of all conversation and even selling them to 3rd parties if they want to (you have to agree to that). They even create a search index for the logs, so the music industry could ask for all logs which contain MP3 and sue a lot of people. For me, this is totally unacceptable and thus I promote Jabber whereever I can. And I have success with this, most of my friends switched to Jabber and it are only very few left who insist on ICQ. When you say you have it again, are you referring to use of the ICQ protocol or software? Pidgin ( http://www.openbsd.org/4.2_packages/i386/pidgin-2.0.1p0-gtkspell.tgz-long.html ) is free and open source and can use the ICQ protocol, so avoiding the ICQ software at least is painless. Avoiding the ICQ protocol is more difficult, I grant you that. But it's your choice to make. I'm refering to the protocol as I only use Windows for games. :) Anyway, the client is the worst. I know Pidgin, but it can't help me to get rid of the ICQ Protocol. Anyway, I prefer Gajim over Pidgin, which is a pure Jabber client which supports far more of the Jabber features. I can only recommend Gajim's SVN version, it rocks :). If your friends won't bother with you unless you sacrifice your PC's security, your money, and your principles, then what good are they? Well, they will bother with me even if I don't use ICQ, but I like to have the possibility to have a way to contact them besides Real Life and telephone. And hey, I even found another reason for having ICQ: When someone asks for your ICQ number, you give it to him and as soon as you get added, you tell them how much better Jabber is. I already had success with this, very often even and it's far easier then telling them No, I don't have ICQ, please create yourself a Jabber account, because when they added you in ICQ, you can explain everything they need to know on how to create a Jabber account to them via ICQ. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Are you doing this for non-repudiation? I'm doing this due to lazyness. I often forget to disable it when sending to mailing lists. -- Jonathan
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
On Sun, Dec 02, 2007 at 06:35:13PM +, Jacob Meuser wrote: On Sun, Dec 02, 2007 at 06:04:50PM +0100, Daniel wrote: On Sun, 2 Dec 2007 16:48:14 + Jacob Meuser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: VoIP applications generally require full-duplex audio operation (or two soundcards, but that gets icky as far as configuration goes). you'll have much more luck with full-duplex audio in -current (or when 4.3 is released). also see ports/telephony/pjsua in -current. Could you provide some information about which drivers provide full-duplex audio in current? auich(4) eso(4) azalia(4) eap(4) emu(4) cmpci(4) clcs(4) and others, but these I have tested (in -current). i've used the following for full-duplex too: uaudio(4) sb(4) -- Alexandre
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
Predrag Punosevac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I checked the Skype website I see that the current version 1.4 is for Fedora Core 6.0 There is also Skype Static OSS. You should try static OSS. Can anyone share hers/his experience in running Skype on OpenBSD. I tried it a long time ago, when Skype used OSS and not ALSA. The result was that I could hear the calling partner, but the calling partner couldn't hear me. But this seems to be a generic problem with the Linux OSS emulation, since I couldn't get the microphone to work with ANY linux binary. -- Jonathan
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
Predrag Punosevac wrote: I was wondering if I could get some feed back about running Skype on the OpenBSD 4.2. (i386 with the generic kernel) ... If you read up on Skype, you'll find that the theoretical shortcomings of not having the source code are more than theoretical. Here's *one* http://forum.skype.com/index.php?showtopic=95261 Also, Skype uses a proprietary protocol, which means you can only ever use it to contact other Skype users, though this might be the reason you want it. In the long run, you can try to get past the Hype and steer your collaborators toward open protocols like SIP. Then you'll have a wider choice of VoIP tools and platforms. -Lars
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
Predrag Punosevac wrote: I was wondering if I could get some feed back about running Skype on the OpenBSD 4.2. (i386 with the generic kernel) I read wonderful article about installation of Skype on OpenBSD Howdy, If you're interested in VoIP, then you might want to look at wengophone, ( http://www.openwengo.com ), it seems to be basically the same thing, but it's GPL'd and the linux version is kept up to date. It might be easier to get working than Skype. Please note that I've not tried to get it working on OpenBSD, I just thought this might be of interest to the list. David
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
Lars NoodC)n [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://forum.skype.com/index.php?showtopic=95261 That's why you run it in a chroot (or a vm). -- Jonathan
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
David Kaye [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you're interested in VoIP, then you might want to look at wengophone, ( http://www.openwengo.com ), it seems to be basically the same thing, but it's GPL'd and the linux version is kept up to date. It might be easier to get working than Skype. Please note that I've not tried to get it working on OpenBSD, I just thought this might be of interest to the list. Sure, there are alternatives, but the problem with them is that they aren't that wide-spread like Skype. It's the same problem from which Jabber suffers :(. Superior technology, but not spread enough. For WengoPhone, I might be wrong, but IIRC, it only supports ALSA. At least, it showed no available audio device on my Linux system with OSS4.1. It's really a huge pain in the ass that more and more apps only support ALSA :( -- Jonathan
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
Lars NoodC)n wrote: Predrag Punosevac wrote: I was wondering if I could get some feed back about running Skype on the OpenBSD 4.2. (i386 with the generic kernel) ... If you read up on Skype, you'll find that the theoretical shortcomings of not having the source code are more than theoretical. Here's *one* http://forum.skype.com/index.php?showtopic=95261 speaking of shortcomings, i wouldn't trust skype as far as i could throw it: 'Skype's stance is typically terse: It does not comment on any interactions with law enforcement or government agencies.' when companies like hushmail bend like a willow in the wind, you should keep your eyes open. expecting large companies to provide any sort of reliable privacy is silly. Also, Skype uses a proprietary protocol, which means you can only ever use it to contact other Skype users, though this might be the reason you want it. In the long run, you can try to get past the Hype and steer your collaborators toward open protocols like SIP. Then you'll have a wider choice of VoIP tools and platforms. -Lars --
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
--- Jacob Yocom-Piatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lars NoodC)n wrote: Predrag Punosevac wrote: I was wondering if I could get some feed back about running Skype on the OpenBSD 4.2. (i386 with the generic kernel) ... If you read up on Skype, you'll find that the theoretical shortcomings of not having the source code are more than theoretical. Here's *one* http://forum.skype.com/index.php?showtopic=95261 speaking of shortcomings, i wouldn't trust skype as far as i could throw it: 'Skype's stance is typically terse: It does not comment on any interactions with law enforcement or government agencies.' when companies like hushmail bend like a willow in the wind, you should keep your eyes open. expecting large companies to provide any sort of reliable privacy is silly. Also, Skype uses a proprietary protocol, which means you can only ever use it to contact other Skype users, though this might be the reason you want it. In the long run, you can try to get past the Hype and steer your collaborators toward open protocols like SIP. Then you'll have a wider choice of VoIP tools and platforms. -Lars -- Quote In the long run, you can try to get past the Hype and steer your collaborators toward open protocols like SIP. Then you'll have a wider choice of VoIP tools and platforms. Unquote What other sip clients are there which will work on OpenBSD? I'm using icewm and don't consider Ekiga an option. Brgds Robert Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
Jonathan Schleifer wrote: David Kaye [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you're interested in VoIP, then you might want to look at wengophone, ( http://www.openwengo.com ), it seems to be basically the same thing, but it's GPL'd and the linux version is kept up to date. It might be easier to get working than Skype. Please note that I've not tried to get it working on OpenBSD, I just thought this might be of interest to the list. Sure, there are alternatives, but the problem with them is that they aren't that wide-spread like Skype. It's the same problem from which Jabber suffers :(. Superior technology, but not spread enough. I find this to be an interesting statement here. I hope I miss understood it. So, you may run OpenBSD, I assume this as you are on OpenBSD list, so your choice of OS is then based on it's merit for security most likely, but at the same time, you kind of promote to use buggy software and fell to justify it access to private data, etc that it really have no business doing by the fact that it is widely use and as such you can't run something else? I find this very disturbing at best? So, it's OK to run virus, bad software, compromise stuff because they are in wide spread and alternative would at the moment less convenient until others see the light as well and ditch it? No wonder there is so many compromise computers and servers on the Internet with attitude like that and that it is so hard to fight against BLOB and required to get good quality and bug free software. No intention to offend you in anyway really, that's not my point at all, but honestly I don't get it! The situation at large will only change if you make the choice knowing to force it to change and simply do not accept it to start with. SO, it's ok for anyone at Skype, partners and anyone that compromise Skype software to have access to all your data, private informations, motherboard BIOS, etc and know everything you did in the pass and everything you will do in the future? If that's really the point of convenience you make, may as well run Windows and have no security setup, but let everything open, at a minimum, you wouldn't pretend to try to be secure and protect your privacy, but would knowingly make it public to anyone that care to see it. Again, nothing personal to you or anything like that. It's not my intention at all and if you take it as such, I sure apologies ahead of time. My point is this attitude at large that we see way to often. As long as this attitude stay and we do not say no to this kind of practice, it will never stop and trying to built secure OS OpenBSD or the like, and stop the BLOB is pointless unless users put their integrity together and will use software, hardware and OS that are fit together and respect the same goal. If you run OpenBSD, then I assume may be wrongly, but you want security, so stay in the path and reject anything else including hardware that don't provide documentations and BLOB and software that you can't trust. Pretending to do different is a liar. Hope this provide something to think about. Best, Daniel
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
VoIP applications generally require full-duplex audio operation (or two soundcards, but that gets icky as far as configuration goes). you'll have much more luck with full-duplex audio in -current (or when 4.3 is released). also see ports/telephony/pjsua in -current. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
On Sun, 2 Dec 2007 16:48:14 + Jacob Meuser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: VoIP applications generally require full-duplex audio operation (or two soundcards, but that gets icky as far as configuration goes). you'll have much more luck with full-duplex audio in -current (or when 4.3 is released). also see ports/telephony/pjsua in -current. Could you provide some information about which drivers provide full-duplex audio in current? Daniel
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
On Sun, Dec 02, 2007 at 08:07:35PM +0200, Lars Nood?n wrote: Twinkle might (or might not) be an option http://www.twinklephone.com/ twinkle is being worked on. hopefully it will be imported before 4.3 is cut, assuming I quit slacking (sorry brad :(). -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
I'm not much for VoIP, but commented on Skype because I had been following the problems this summer. The main two strikes against Skype are its closed (BLOB) nature and its proprietary protocol. To bring up the security track record of Skype would be to just kick it while it's already down. Robert Gilaard wrote: ... What other sip clients are there which will work on OpenBSD? I'm using icewm and don't consider Ekiga an option. Here are some other guesses: Would kphone be an option? http://sourceforge.net/projects/kphone Someone else mentioned Wengo: http://www.openwengo.org/index.php/openwengo/public/homePage/openwengo/public/about (may or may not be an option for OpenBSD) Asterisk might be overkill http://www.openbsd.org/4.2_packages/i386/asterisk-1.2.22.tgz-long.html http://www.openbsd.org/4.2_packages/i386/AsteriskTFOT-1.0.tgz-long.html Twinkle might (or might not) be an option http://www.twinklephone.com/ Zap! is based on XUL http://croczilla.com/zap Regards, -Lars
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
On Sun, Dec 02, 2007 at 06:04:50PM +0100, Daniel wrote: On Sun, 2 Dec 2007 16:48:14 + Jacob Meuser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: VoIP applications generally require full-duplex audio operation (or two soundcards, but that gets icky as far as configuration goes). you'll have much more luck with full-duplex audio in -current (or when 4.3 is released). also see ports/telephony/pjsua in -current. Could you provide some information about which drivers provide full-duplex audio in current? auich(4) eso(4) azalia(4) eap(4) emu(4) cmpci(4) clcs(4) and others, but these I have tested (in -current). now, there are different ways of doing full-duplex, and some methods work better than others. so, even if full-duplex is possible, the way it is implemented makes a difference. take a look at src/regress/sys/dev/audio_rw/audiotest_rw.c. read the commit messages for that and pay close attention to audio(4). also note that with azalia(4) and the ac97(4) based devices, some codecs may work better than others. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: RIPEMD160 Daniel Ouellet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I find this to be an interesting statement here. I hope I miss understood it. You totally misunderstood it. So, you may run OpenBSD, I assume this as you are on OpenBSD list, so your choice of OS is then based on it's merit for security most likely, but at the same time, you kind of promote to use buggy software and fell to justify it access to private data, etc that it really have no business doing by the fact that it is widely use and as such you can't run something else? Nope. I neither use Skype, nor do I promote it. It's just that I made the experience that most users use Skype and are unwilling to try something else because all of their friends also use it. Same for Jabber. I really prefer Jabber, but still I have to use the ICQ Gateway since there are too many people who I can't convince to switch over to Jabber. And so this is with Skype. Most users are unwilling to change or too inexperienced to use something else, because it's different from what they know. And I have never said that it's ok to access private data, please stop stating that I have said that, because I clearly haven't. I find this very disturbing at best? So, it's OK to run virus, bad software, compromise stuff because they are in wide spread and alternative would at the moment less convenient until others see the light as well and ditch it? Again: I never said it's ok to run it. Some might not have another choice since all their friends use Skype. And if you would have read a little more of my answer, you'd have come to the point where I've recommended not running it outside of a chroot. No wonder there is so many compromise computers and servers on the Internet with attitude like that and that it is so hard to fight against BLOB and required to get good quality and bug free software. You really start to piss me off. I never advertised the use of BLOBs, but sometimes there just isn't an alternative. For example, I'm against BLOBs, but still I use the proprietary NVidia drivers on Linux since I need 3D support. And - again - if you would've read my other reply as well, you'd have seen that I care about security and recommended to run Skype *ONLY* in chroot or vm. No intention to offend you in anyway really, that's not my point at all, but honestly I don't get it! Well, then stop implying things I've never said. The situation at large will only change if you make the choice knowing to force it to change and simply do not accept it to start with. It helps a lot if you cancel all your social contacts just to promote alternatives, yes, really. I once tried this with ICQ, I just dropped the account. Well, a few users changed to Jabber, but the majority didn't, and sooner or later I had to get a new ICQ account. SO, it's ok for anyone at Skype, partners and anyone that compromise Skype software to have access to all your data, private informations, motherboard BIOS, etc and know everything you did in the pass and everything you will do in the future? Where the fuck should I have said this? I never said this, please stop accusing me of having that said. If that's really the point of convenience you make, may as well run Windows and have no security setup, but let everything open, at a minimum, you wouldn't pretend to try to be secure and protect your privacy, but would knowingly make it public to anyone that care to see it. Yes, sometimes I have to use windows. And you know what? I even try to keep that as secure as possible, which means that it only has connection to the internet if really necessary and always behind a PF-firewalled gateway. Again, nothing personal to you or anything like that. It's not my intention at all and if you take it as such, I sure apologies ahead of time. You should stop accusing other of having said something which they clearly haven't if you don't want to offend somebody. My point is this attitude at large that we see way to often. You totally got my attitude wrong. I use free software and open standards wherever I can, but since I have a lot of friends who use ICQ and Skype, I'm forced to use it as well as many of them are unwilling to switch to something else. As long as this attitude stay and we do not say no to this kind of practice, it will never stop and trying to built secure OS OpenBSD or the like, and stop the BLOB is pointless unless users put their integrity together and will use software, hardware and OS that are fit together and respect the same goal. Well, the real problem is that I don't care attitude many of my friends have. They don't care if ICQ logs messages or if Skype spys. And that's why I'm having so big problems to make them switch to Jabber/SIP and because I don't want to cancel all my social contacts, I use
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
What other sip clients are there which will work on OpenBSD? I'm using icewm and don't consider Ekiga an option. As was mentioned earlier, pjsua, a command-line sip user agent, is in ports. It's the definition of nothing fancy, but it does demonstrate that the MI audio layer and various drivers are perfectly capable of running this type of app. The others you mention should be possible, if anyone is willing to do the porting. http://www.pjsip.org/pjsua.htm
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
Jacob Meuser wrote: VoIP applications generally require full-duplex audio operation (or two soundcards, but that gets icky as far as configuration goes). you'll have much more luck with full-duplex audio in -current (or when 4.3 is released). also see ports/telephony/pjsua in -current. I apologize to everyone for my first message as it seems stirred high unintended emotions. I was merely interested in the technical possibility to run the Skype on the OpenBSD box. As of this moment I do not have even a Linux emulator turned on as I have strong preference for BSD license and keeping thing as simple as possible. According to above message I could expect technical problems with the full-duplex mode on 4.2. I was not aware of it. I am familiar with the SIP technology and have strong preference to SIP phones over Skype. As of now it seems that there are no SIP phones either listed in packages and even ports for 4.2. Another reason for being interested in the Skype is purely pragmatical. It seems that SIP phones and in particularly Ekiga that I am the most familiar with have poor support for Windows and OS X. As most of people that I talk to (family and friends) run those operating systems it seems to me logical that I try to accommodate them instead of asking all of them to change the operating system. Speaking of my privacy I have no illusions either. I live in U. S. and I do know that all my phone conversations and email correspondence are monitored by various government agencies so I do not expect that Skype would be any exception to this disturbing trend. One more time my sincere apology to everyone. Best, Predrag
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
Jacob Meuser wrote: VoIP applications generally require full-duplex audio operation (or two soundcards, but that gets icky as far as configuration goes). you'll have much more luck with full-duplex audio in -current (or when 4.3 is released). also see ports/telephony/pjsua in -current. I apologize to everyone for my first message as it seems stirred high unintended emotions. I was merely interested in the technical possibility to run the Skype on the OpenBSD box. As of this moment I do not have even a Linux emulator turned on as I have strong preference for BSD license and keeping thing as simple as possible. According to above message I could expect technical problems with the full-duplex mode on 4.2. I was not aware of it. I am familiar with the SIP technology and have strong preference to SIP phones over Skype. As of now it seems that there are no SIP phones either listed in packages and even ports for 4.2. Another reason for being interested in the Skype is purely pragmatical. It seems that SIP phones and in particularly Ekiga that I am the most familiar with have poor support for Windows and OS X. As most of people that I talk to (family and friends) run those operating systems it seems to me logical that I try to accommodate them instead of asking all of them to change the operating system.
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
Predrag Punosevac wrote: ... It seems that SIP phones and in particularly Ekiga that I am the most familiar with have poor support for Windows and OS X. As most of people that I talk to (family and friends) run those operating systems it seems to me logical that I try to accommodate them ... Fortunately, if you get them to use SIP, then it does not matter which application they use -- at least as far as communication goes. The trick is getting them off the closed protocols. -Lars
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
[quotes rearranged (but not changed) for easier parsing] On 02/12/2007, Jonathan Schleifer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I neither use Skype, nor do I promote it. (...) Again: I never said it's ok to run it. (...) I've recommended not running it outside of a chroot. (...) I care about security and recommended to run Skype *ONLY* in chroot or vm. ...which is still running it, and implying that it's ok to do so, as long as it's inside a chroot. I have a lot of friends who use ICQ and Skype, I'm forced to use it as well as many of them are unwilling to switch to something else. So you DO use Skype, after all. You said above that you didn't. Which is it? I'm against BLOBs, but still I use the proprietary NVidia drivers on Linux since I need 3D support. (...) Yes, sometimes I have to use windows. You do not need and do not have to. You always have a choice. Even if it gets to be our only weapon is our refusal. I'm not telling you what choice to make. I know that it's hard to unconditionally and uncompromisingly stand up for one's principles. I'm not better than you in that regard. But it is a *choice*. A choice and a trade-off, because you decided that NVidia 3D graphics and whatever Windows does for you is more important than staying blob-free. Do not pretend that you have no choice. Your decisions are your choice and **your responsibility**, and **your** choice is NOT the responsibility of your fellow Skype or Windows or NVidia users. You have to balance between ideology and use. You're on the wrong email list with that view. This point has been argued repeatedly here -- and again, and again, and again, ad infinitum et ad nauseam. The bottom line is that most OpenBSD users are not fond of such compromises. Yes, some of us still sometimes make them **cough** I got a free NVIDIA card, and wanted to run Google Earth on Linux and... **cough**, but most folks here are VERY ashamed when making such compromises, and recognize them as inherent wrongs, and would never be so foolish as to try to defend these dirty little secrets. And I think most OpenBSD users would not say that they have to, they would admit that they chose to, maybe against their better judgment. Daniel Ouellet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you kind of promote to use buggy software (...) by the fact that it is widely use and as such you can't run something else? This seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable summary of your position. --ropers
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
I did this as an exercise some time ago... when I was learning how obsd works: www.aei.mpg.de/~pau/skype.png Now that I know that there is pjsua in ports waiting for us (it's only -current), which seems to be compatible for windows and MacOSX and linux, I'm looking forward to it! (I'm the only one using obsd among my friends and relatives, but still I want to be able to talk to them!) And I'd never be using skype... Putting it into words of Olivier Meyer: -- Skype is completely closed source, and the developers have admitted that the only reason it is not open source, is because the security is too weak. See http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/15/voip_and_skype/page3.html and look at the bottom: Would he[Niklas Zennstrom, co-founder of Skype] make Skype open-source? No - that would make its strong 1024 bit encryption and security vulnerable: We could do it but only if we re-engineered the way it works and we don't have the time right now. This is merely security by obscurity. According to a security analysis presented at BlackHat, the code is protected with many layers of obfuscation and encryption, intended to prevent reversing. Here is relevant sections of the EULA(http://www.skype.com/company/legal/eula/): 4.1 *Utilization of Your computer.* You hereby acknowledge that the Skype Software may utilize the processor and bandwidth of the computer (or other applicable device) You are utilizing, for the limited purpose of facilitating the communication between Skype Software users. So, basically, you accept the fact that Skype will use any and all resources to facilitate communication. How does anyone know that there is not a backdoor that can bes used to access any machine running Skype. -- 2007/12/2, Predrag Punosevac [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jacob Meuser wrote: VoIP applications generally require full-duplex audio operation (or two soundcards, but that gets icky as far as configuration goes). you'll have much more luck with full-duplex audio in -current (or when 4.3 is released). also see ports/telephony/pjsua in -current. I apologize to everyone for my first message as it seems stirred high unintended emotions. I was merely interested in the technical possibility to run the Skype on the OpenBSD box. As of this moment I do not have even a Linux emulator turned on as I have strong preference for BSD license and keeping thing as simple as possible. According to above message I could expect technical problems with the full-duplex mode on 4.2. I was not aware of it. I am familiar with the SIP technology and have strong preference to SIP phones over Skype. As of now it seems that there are no SIP phones either listed in packages and even ports for 4.2. Another reason for being interested in the Skype is purely pragmatical. It seems that SIP phones and in particularly Ekiga that I am the most familiar with have poor support for Windows and OS X. As most of people that I talk to (family and friends) run those operating systems it seems to me logical that I try to accommodate them instead of asking all of them to change the operating system. Speaking of my privacy I have no illusions either. I live in U. S. and I do know that all my phone conversations and email correspondence are monitored by various government agencies so I do not expect that Skype would be any exception to this disturbing trend. One more time my sincere apology to everyone. Best, Predrag
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
Predrag Punosevac wrote: I apologize to everyone for my first message as it seems stirred high unintended emotions. I was merely interested in the technical possibility to run the Skype on the OpenBSD box. As of this moment I do not have even a Linux emulator turned on as I have strong preference for BSD license and keeping thing as simple as possible. Technically, you need - fedora_base installed, - ftp://rpmfind.net/linux/fedora/extras/4/i386/libsigc++20-2.0.17-1.i386.rpm (needs rpm and gcpio packages to decompress), - http://download.skype.com/linux/skype_static-1.4.0.118-oss.tar.bz2 (FreeBSD port switched to this version since Nov). Above works for me on -current (Skype is able to start and register) but sound is not tested. Thing I should mention: - noone can restrict you in using closed software like Skype (since this is your decision) but you've been warned about possible consequences. Good systrace policy may help to control Skype but I'm not sure this will work with emulated binaries. Does anybody know? - Alexey.
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: RIPEMD160 ropers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So you DO use Skype, after all. You said above that you didn't. Which is it? No, not anymore. I used it in the past but now I use the normal telephone since I got a flatrate. Well, it's untrue that you have a choice. For example, in Germany the tax computation program that companies need runs only on Windows and they *HAVE* to use it and to send it over the internet using it. Same for 3D games: You don't have another chance than to use the BLOB to play them. you kind of promote to use buggy software (...) by the fact that it is widely use and as such you can't run something else? This seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable summary of your position. Not at all. I never promoted the use of BLOBs, I promoted to get rid of them. But still I'm forced to use them. Same for ICQ: I urge every ICQ user nearly *DAILY* to switch to Jabber since the gateway sucks a lot. I even got rid of ICQ once, but too many still wouldn't switch so now I have it again :(. I prefer free software and open standards, but canceling social contacts because of that is just plain stupid. Most of my real life friends sadly use ICQ and won't switch. I'm glad that I got a telephon flatrate now and don't need to use Skype anymore. - -- Jonathan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQGVAwUBR1MfcUab4FbSWhEgAQMsXQv+N5k3sQLghdxmFpHeeMZCdN7b9dQNZ9+h BxVZ3b6Pc74lt361INUFdHvzxGOXkQsKXI+hTZXkayopoikTTbY+m34hlGmwwPTH xGK6x5H5O0/Zt27JTBJoPzMnff5HxeYGXpVHPm/bv5P5ZZli4CTQduwa42Bl40LC 3pVJF3GVFNNGO6JuFcfudtFYujPQJE0Rbi2lAs/REspvmnf9ZN9YRK2/hqQfk6Ur UaRohtpr8zmN56k2xdsckhqfbmTBKRszBd6z3uLaTMZ/EgT8bgGCKE2x8nFqRHJf kmUSotRnoyPEbhydE/WzjaAtpxAo6WKNE9EAd4nIiS9FthiRVkSFaig9iZH3+xG9 uVrS3yHuPPxZL8PQ9ptRH+SKbIuK9cEh7OPNi1vffVhUrdH0+ijajEuMl3HeMwUN VDxLQnADAPCXhtyCDFQGk+E02EUNZ8TXdyhuDcp9LsyUqguMp5GEOpxN09ukN7xQ tD7ylEsxjWCTO7eJ7sOkLjPu3I2ngNjb =l3t7 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
Do not pretend that you have no choice. quite This is indeed the point. It's hard, it hurts, but it's the point. After one year of migration, I am now using exclusively obsd on this laptop, without any kind of blob, and all hardware is supported. I have learnt to be patient. If you support your football team, you have to support it also when it loses a match, and obsd is playing a difficult game against a team of a billion vendors with weapons of massive destruction. I support them. I come from the linux side and obsd has given me things I had only heard about like; e.g. when you don't know what programme tretetrertwe does, type man tretetrertwe Wrong. When I switched to obsd I could not believe that a man could be THAT useful. In linux I was googling for answers. Also: Releases. I do SEE the new work in obsd releases. I almost did not see anything in the linux world, artwork, probably, full stop. Sometimes also things that worked before stopped working. Note that I do not want to make out of this (yet) another linux-obsd war. I mention linux because it _was_ my OS before. Full stop here, please. The bottom line: you have the choice 2007/12/2, ropers [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [quotes rearranged (but not changed) for easier parsing] On 02/12/2007, Jonathan Schleifer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I neither use Skype, nor do I promote it. (...) Again: I never said it's ok to run it. (...) I've recommended not running it outside of a chroot. (...) I care about security and recommended to run Skype *ONLY* in chroot or vm. ...which is still running it, and implying that it's ok to do so, as long as it's inside a chroot. I have a lot of friends who use ICQ and Skype, I'm forced to use it as well as many of them are unwilling to switch to something else. So you DO use Skype, after all. You said above that you didn't. Which is it? I'm against BLOBs, but still I use the proprietary NVidia drivers on Linux since I need 3D support. (...) Yes, sometimes I have to use windows. You do not need and do not have to. You always have a choice. Even if it gets to be our only weapon is our refusal. I'm not telling you what choice to make. I know that it's hard to unconditionally and uncompromisingly stand up for one's principles. I'm not better than you in that regard. But it is a *choice*. A choice and a trade-off, because you decided that NVidia 3D graphics and whatever Windows does for you is more important than staying blob-free. Do not pretend that you have no choice. Your decisions are your choice and **your responsibility**, and **your** choice is NOT the responsibility of your fellow Skype or Windows or NVidia users. You have to balance between ideology and use. You're on the wrong email list with that view. This point has been argued repeatedly here -- and again, and again, and again, ad infinitum et ad nauseam. The bottom line is that most OpenBSD users are not fond of such compromises. Yes, some of us still sometimes make them **cough** I got a free NVIDIA card, and wanted to run Google Earth on Linux and... **cough**, but most folks here are VERY ashamed when making such compromises, and recognize them as inherent wrongs, and would never be so foolish as to try to defend these dirty little secrets. And I think most OpenBSD users would not say that they have to, they would admit that they chose to, maybe against their better judgment. Daniel Ouellet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you kind of promote to use buggy software (...) by the fact that it is widely use and as such you can't run something else? This seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable summary of your position. --ropers
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
On Sun, Dec 02, 2007 at 11:05:57PM +0200, Alexey Suslikov wrote: Predrag Punosevac wrote: I apologize to everyone for my first message as it seems stirred high unintended emotions. I was merely interested in the technical possibility to run the Skype on the OpenBSD box. As of this moment I do not have even a Linux emulator turned on as I have strong preference for BSD license and keeping thing as simple as possible. Technically, you need - fedora_base installed, - ftp://rpmfind.net/linux/fedora/extras/4/i386/libsigc++20-2.0.17-1.i386.rpm (needs rpm and gcpio packages to decompress), - http://download.skype.com/linux/skype_static-1.4.0.118-oss.tar.bz2 (FreeBSD port switched to this version since Nov). Above works for me on -current (Skype is able to start and register) but sound is not tested. kernel OSS emulation (linux binaries) is (purposefully) lagging behind userland OSS emulation (native binaries). Thing I should mention: - noone can restrict you in using closed software like Skype (since this is your decision) but you've been warned about possible consequences. Good systrace policy may help to control Skype but I'm not sure this will work with emulated binaries. Does anybody know? - Alexey. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
On 02/12/2007, Jonathan Schleifer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, it's untrue that you have a choice. For example, in Germany the tax computation program that companies need runs only on Windows and they *HAVE* to use it and to send it over the internet using it. I'm pretty sure that the state forcing companies to use a single vendor's OS in his way is ultimately illegal and/or unconstitutional. If you chose to dig your heels in over this, you could sue the German revenue service and very likely win. But then again, that may be very expensive and time-consuming, regardless of the outcome, so you may chose not to do it -- because it's a royal PITA to do it. Your choice. That said, I heartily encourage ethical civil disobedience whereever legal or administrative travesties are encountered. For instance, I'm a German national myself, and I don't have an ID card, because they have no right to require me to have one (they don't like to admit it, but it's the truth). But they're constantly pestering me to get one, and I keep saying no thanks, I'm fine with my passport (if you don't have an ID card, you have to have a passport, only one of both is required and I chose the less intrusive one). Also, I can't wait till I'm back in Ireland where I no longer need to register my place of residence. When I first left for Ireland, I sent back my German ID card (which I then used to have) in an envelope with no return address -- because they had no right to know my place of residence in Ireland, but the ID card was their property. I had also unregistered at the Meldeamt, which you can do if moving abroad. I could almost smell the freedom. :) Okay, I digressed. Back to the main topic. Same for 3D games: You don't have another chance than to use the BLOB to play them. Not true. You have plenty of other chances. One of my mainboards has a UniChrome Pro onboard graphics chip, and there is a fully free and open source Linux driver for that ( http://www.openchrome.org/ ) and with it, hardware accelerated OpenGL works under Linux. Also, if there aren't fully free and open source graphics drivers for your existing hardware that would allow you to run 3D games, then you can: a) Buy (preferably well-documented) hardware for which free and open source drivers exist. b) Write a free and open source driver for your hardware. (Learn to reverse-engineer and program if necessary.) c) Pay someone to write a free and open source driver for your existing hardware. d) Refuse to play games that require blobs to run. These are all choices. Not all of them are easy or very comfortable or quick choices, but they are choices. Nobody ever suggested that freedom was free. you kind of promote to use buggy software (...) by the fact that it is widely use and as such you can't run something else? This seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable summary of your position. Not at all. I never promoted the use of BLOBs, I didn't say (and IIRC Daniel didn't say) that you promoted the use of buggy software. We both DID say that you **sort of** promoted the use of buggy software, and I think that's accurate. I promoted to get rid of them. You repeatedly *proposed* to get rid of them, but actions speak louder than words and you (and I admittedly, I'm ashamed to say) still use some blobs, which is sort of promoting the use of buggy software. But still I'm forced to use them. No. You're. Not. See above. Your choice. Same for ICQ: I urge every ICQ user nearly *DAILY* to switch to Jabber Good. since the gateway sucks a lot. If the Jabber-ICQ gateway you use didn't suck, would you then no longer urge people to switch? I even got rid of ICQ once, but too many still wouldn't switch so now I have it again :(. When you say you have it again, are you referring to use of the ICQ protocol or software? Pidgin ( http://www.openbsd.org/4.2_packages/i386/pidgin-2.0.1p0-gtkspell.tgz-long.html ) is free and open source and can use the ICQ protocol, so avoiding the ICQ software at least is painless. Avoiding the ICQ protocol is more difficult, I grant you that. But it's your choice to make. I prefer free software and open standards, but canceling social contacts because of that is just plain stupid. Back in the days, I would have said that chosing your friends on the basis of whether or not they have a mobile phone is just plain stupid. If your friends won't bother with you unless you sacrifice your PC's security, your money, and your principles, then what good are they? Most of my real life friends sadly use ICQ and won't switch. I'm glad that I got a telephon flatrate now and don't need to use Skype anymore. See? You're paying for a telephone flatrate, so you can easily avoid using Skype. That's a choice right there. And a good one, I dare say. Kudos. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Are you doing this for non-repudiation? Cheers, --ropers
Re: Skype on the OpenBSD
On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 12:30:16AM +0100, ropers wrote: On 02/12/2007, Jonathan Schleifer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of my mainboards has a UniChrome Pro onboard graphics chip, and there is a fully free and open source Linux driver for that ( http://www.openchrome.org/ ) and with it, hardware accelerated OpenGL works under Linux. Also, if there aren't fully free and open source graphics drivers for your existing hardware that would allow you to run 3D games, then you can: a) Buy (preferably well-documented) hardware for which free and open source drivers exist. Oh, I think a lot of people would if it was available. Apparently, Intel's integrated graphics with the open driver will do 3D but their web site (last I looked) said that they don't make separate cards. The freedesktop.org site said (last time i looked) that the best bet was ATI (they list the model number) which does most things now. Hopefully, with the AMD acquisition, things will move along. Perhaps next year this will be a viable option for all users. b) Write a free and open source driver for your hardware. (Learn to reverse-engineer and program if necessary.) With all the fine people trying to do this, my puny coding skills are worth diddly on this project. c) Pay someone to write a free and open source driver for your existing hardware. Any idea on the cost? Take a hot-off the press card, give it to the programmer, have them write a driver that will take full advantage of all the hardware and licence it ISC. Any estimate or ETA? d) Refuse to play games that require blobs to run. I personally don't play games and its not a job requirement for me. However, I recognize that for some the ability to do 3D stuff may be a job requirement. These are all choices. Not all of them are easy or very comfortable or quick choices, but they are choices. Nobody ever suggested that freedom was free. Back in the days, I would have said that chosing your friends on the basis of whether or not they have a mobile phone is just plain stupid. If your friends won't bother with you unless you sacrifice your PC's security, your money, and your principles, then what good are they? Good point here. I do and accept plain text email only. Attachments can be other formats but I warn them that my ability to read a .doc file is limited and prone to error and suggest that if they are sending me something that needs to be .doc for formatting that they are better sending pdf, otherwise plain text; get them to do the conversion. People know this. They also know my phone number and I know theirs. I also have and address, and a nice set of paper and pens. Most of my real life friends sadly use ICQ and won't switch. I'm glad that I got a telephon flatrate now and don't need to use Skype anymore. See? You're paying for a telephone flatrate, so you can easily avoid using Skype. That's a choice right there. And a good one, I dare say. Kudos. For me, I'm on dialup, so using an internet phone thingy seems silly. I only pay about $5 a month for long distance. Phones are cheap now.
