[neonixie-l] Re: HV5523/HV5623

[Dekatron42]

Have you asked Microchip what they think about the use? They have always 
been very helpful when I have asked them about their ic's and the ratings.

/Martin

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[neonixie-l] Re: HV5523/HV5623

[mchan]

yes i saw the ROC. my main reason for loosely interpreting the max ratings 
and going with something within that range was to reduce components (for 
level shifting and what not).  I imagine the better way for me to interpret 
is to think that the closer I get to the MAX ratings the more likely it 
could fail.
I think for my next clock with these chips I'll get closer to ROC and do 
things "right".  but for now i'm a few volts within the MAX ratings so 
hopefully all is good and things continue working OK.  This is, as you 
mentioned, for home use so I don't have to worry too much if it fails.

this clock in question is here

https://hackaday.io/project/46429-nixie-clock-3

I do have room for the additional components to get things to ROC but 
didn't at the time think it necessary.   However theres always NEXT TIME ! 
:)

thanks for the info... very helpful!




On Sunday, February 25, 2018 at 1:51:29 PM UTC-8, Tomasz Kowalczyk wrote:
>
> This was taken fron Absolute Maximum Ratings. There is a note right under 
> them:
> "Notice: Stresses above those listed under “Absolute Maximum Ratings” may 
> cause permanent damage to the device. This is a stress rating only, and 
> functional operation of the device at those or any other conditions above 
> those indicated in the operational sections of this specification is not 
> intended. Exposure to maximum rating conditions for extended periods may 
> affect device reliability."
>
> Right under that there are Recommended Operating Conditions, which clearly 
> state VDD 10,2-13,8V and logic input between VDD-2V to VDD. So if it works 
> at 3,3V logic, then good for you, but if something unexpected happens, then 
> manufacturer takes no responsibility, as you use it out of Recommended 
> Operating Conditions.
>
> Shortly speaking, area between ROC and AMR is treated like "it won't burn, 
> but it doesn't have to work". AMR is the limit of permanent damage of the 
> chip, while ROC determines range in which manufacturer guarantees, that 
> information found in the datasheet will be accurate.
>
> So it is up to you. If the clock is running at your home, then an 
> unexpected failure won't be a disaster. But I would never sell a clock with 
> parts operating out of specifications.
>
> W dniu niedziela, 25 lutego 2018 22:26:41 UTC+1 użytkownik mchan napisał:
>>
>> This thread was from a few months ago but wanted to add something.  First 
>> those chips are pretty cool due to their size so i'll have to try soem at 
>> some point.
>>
>> Secondly people keep saying the HV5530 needs 12V logic.  I've run these 
>> at 3.3V and all seems to be good.  I based this on the data sheet where it 
>> said Supply Voltage, VDD –0.5V to +15V
>>
>> then Logic Input Levels –0.5V to VDD+0.5V
>>
>> I interpreted that as plus or minus a half volt to the 3.3V it's running 
>> at.  Have I got that wrong and the fact it's "working" is a bit of a fluke 
>> ? :)
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, October 28, 2017 at 10:33:45 AM UTC-7, SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan 
>> F. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> We all know the PLCC Style HV-Drivers from Microchip, for example HV5530.
>>> All of them require a +12V Data Signal according to datasheet, but yet 
>>> the run in some circuits with even 5V data signals..
>>>
>>>
>>> While browsing microchips website i found HV5523/HV5623.
>>> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/hv5523.pdf  
>>>
>>> Those are fast 16Mhz registers with 5V logic data and can switch up to 
>>> 220V@100mA per Channel and come in a very small QFN package. (Attached an 
>>> image to PLCC for comparision)
>>> I will definitly order some of them to test :) they would help to make a 
>>> very slim and thin clock board :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Has anyone experimented with them already? Something to know?
>>>
>>>
>>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: HV5523/HV5623

[Tomasz Kowalczyk]

This was taken fron Absolute Maximum Ratings. There is a note right under 
them:
"Notice: Stresses above those listed under “Absolute Maximum Ratings” may 
cause permanent damage to the device. This is a stress rating only, and 
functional operation of the device at those or any other conditions above 
those indicated in the operational sections of this specification is not 
intended. Exposure to maximum rating conditions for extended periods may 
affect device reliability."

Right under that there are Recommended Operating Conditions, which clearly 
state VDD 10,2-13,8V and logic input between VDD-2V to VDD. So if it works 
at 3,3V logic, then good for you, but if something unexpected happens, then 
manufacturer takes no responsibility, as you use it out of Recommended 
Operating Conditions.

Shortly speaking, area between ROC and AMR is treated like "it won't burn, 
but it doesn't have to work". AMR is the limit of permanent damage of the 
chip, while ROC determines range in which manufacturer guarantees, that 
information found in the datasheet will be accurate.

So it is up to you. If the clock is running at your home, then an 
unexpected failure won't be a disaster. But I would never sell a clock with 
parts operating out of specifications.

W dniu niedziela, 25 lutego 2018 22:26:41 UTC+1 użytkownik mchan napisał:
>
> This thread was from a few months ago but wanted to add something.  First 
> those chips are pretty cool due to their size so i'll have to try soem at 
> some point.
>
> Secondly people keep saying the HV5530 needs 12V logic.  I've run these at 
> 3.3V and all seems to be good.  I based this on the data sheet where it 
> said Supply Voltage, VDD –0.5V to +15V
>
> then Logic Input Levels –0.5V to VDD+0.5V
>
> I interpreted that as plus or minus a half volt to the 3.3V it's running 
> at.  Have I got that wrong and the fact it's "working" is a bit of a fluke 
> ? :)
>
>  
>
>  
>
>
>
> On Saturday, October 28, 2017 at 10:33:45 AM UTC-7, SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan 
> F. wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> We all know the PLCC Style HV-Drivers from Microchip, for example HV5530.
>> All of them require a +12V Data Signal according to datasheet, but yet 
>> the run in some circuits with even 5V data signals..
>>
>>
>> While browsing microchips website i found HV5523/HV5623.
>> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/hv5523.pdf  
>>
>> Those are fast 16Mhz registers with 5V logic data and can switch up to 
>> 220V@100mA per Channel and come in a very small QFN package. (Attached an 
>> image to PLCC for comparision)
>> I will definitly order some of them to test :) they would help to make a 
>> very slim and thin clock board :)
>>
>>
>>
>> Has anyone experimented with them already? Something to know?
>>
>>
>>

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[neonixie-l] Re: HV5523/HV5623

[mchan]

This thread was from a few months ago but wanted to add something.  First 
those chips are pretty cool due to their size so i'll have to try soem at 
some point.

Secondly people keep saying the HV5530 needs 12V logic.  I've run these at 
3.3V and all seems to be good.  I based this on the data sheet where it 
said Supply Voltage, VDD –0.5V to +15V

then Logic Input Levels –0.5V to VDD+0.5V

I interpreted that as plus or minus a half volt to the 3.3V it's running 
at.  Have I got that wrong and the fact it's "working" is a bit of a fluke 
? :)

 

 



On Saturday, October 28, 2017 at 10:33:45 AM UTC-7, SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan 
F. wrote:
>
>
> Hi folks,
>
> We all know the PLCC Style HV-Drivers from Microchip, for example HV5530.
> All of them require a +12V Data Signal according to datasheet, but yet the 
> run in some circuits with even 5V data signals..
>
>
> While browsing microchips website i found HV5523/HV5623.
> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/hv5523.pdf  
>
> Those are fast 16Mhz registers with 5V logic data and can switch up to 
> 220V@100mA per Channel and come in a very small QFN package. (Attached an 
> image to PLCC for comparision)
> I will definitly order some of them to test :) they would help to make a 
> very slim and thin clock board :)
>
>
>
> Has anyone experimented with them already? Something to know?
>
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: HV5523/HV5623

[Paul Andrews]

I'm using one on a one-tube board I am making (a bit excessive for one 
tube, but it is small, 5V and can sink a decent current). At the moment I 
have one on a breadboard. They work as advertised! I picked up some 
Adafruit QFN44 adapters from digikey and had a stencil made to do the 
reflow with: I *have* hand soldered chips this small in the past, but it 
wasn't pretty and not always successful. A stencil makes it very easy.

I used a reflow griddle, which is fine for small stuff that I can pick up 
with kitchen implements.

I am thinking I will need to upgrade to an oven for the actual board 
though, which will have a bunch of QFN chips on it. Probably too big to 
pick up with the kitchen tools I have! That's why I am on this thread, I 
was looking for some info I saw pass by a while ago.

On Saturday, October 28, 2017 at 1:33:45 PM UTC-4, SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F. 
wrote:
>
>
> Hi folks,
>
> We all know the PLCC Style HV-Drivers from Microchip, for example HV5530.
> All of them require a +12V Data Signal according to datasheet, but yet the 
> run in some circuits with even 5V data signals..
>
>
> While browsing microchips website i found HV5523/HV5623.
> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/hv5523.pdf  
>
> Those are fast 16Mhz registers with 5V logic data and can switch up to 
> 220V@100mA per Channel and come in a very small QFN package. (Attached an 
> image to PLCC for comparision)
> I will definitly order some of them to test :) they would help to make a 
> very slim and thin clock board :)
>
>
>
> Has anyone experimented with them already? Something to know?
>
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: HV5523/HV5623

[newxito]

 

I’ve got the HV5623 chips, really small stuff. Currently I’m designing a 
board, but I don’t have any experience with SMD components, so probably 
this will never work. Anyway, the plan is to feed the board with 5V over a 
micro-usb connector and to mount Yan’s new tiny PSU and a ESP32 on the 
board. Time to learn how to write apps. I’ll be back in 6 month. :-)

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[neonixie-l] Re: HV5523/HV5623

[Tomasz Kowalczyk]

Having a thermal pad does wonders. A PLCC package, in socket or not, has to 
dissipate heat mainly through its body, because heat transfers to other 
parts of the board only via legs. In practice, almost all power is 
dissipated through plastic. Thermal pad allows to mostly transfer the heat 
to other metal bodies (copper area). However, the 3,4W is alot of heat and 
looking at conditions for such continous dissipation, the whole concept of 
a small PCB area is lost - 3x4" 4-layer board ( I assume that 3 layers are 
connected to the pad). In reality I doubt dissipating more than 1W on such 
piece would be allowable with thermal vias to other side and half a square 
inch of plane on the other side. However, judging from the datasheet, you 
can safely drive 3 CD-47 (with their 25mA cathode current) and still be way 
under 1W.

Back to the spacing topic: 
Mains voltage routing norms are way more strict than that. Mains isolation 
is calculated using alot higher voltage, I recall a number about 1200Vpp. 
Some norms I found require that the mains voltage should be at absolute 
minimum spaced 1,5mm from other traces and 2mm is recommended for basic 
design (and 4mm between primary and secondary). The norms I've taken for 
calculating minimum spacing were included in online clearance calculators 
and they assume the given voltage is peak AC or DC.
I really think that it would be unwise to use this chip to drive voltages 
close to 200V due to possiblity of arcing between pads. In nixie clock that 
would result in just two digits glowing at once, but that would still count 
as a failure. I'd like to see any report from testing this chip (pad width 
vs leaking current).


W dniu niedziela, 29 października 2017 15:05:03 UTC+1 użytkownik Nick 
napisał:
>
> On Sunday, 29 October 2017 12:03:35 UTC+4, SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F. wrote:
>>
>> Nick, note that the 3.4W are "absolute maximum" which usually means the 
>> part is going to die if you go over that.
>
>
> I did note that - I state "up to 3.4W" - good engineering practice means 
> you should still consider that...
>
> Also, the PLCC package you use is about 300mm^2. at 1.2W, that's about 
> 4mW/mm^2
>
> The HV5523 QFN package is only 49mm^2, so at peak power that's 70mW/mm^2, 
> i.e. nearly 18 times the power density of your chip.
>
> Even if it was only 1.2W, that would still be 25mW/mm^2, i.e. 6 times the 
> power density you are seeing with the HV5122.
>
> The "plated-through hole underneath" technique works OK if done sensibly, 
> but you still have to ensure that there is sufficient copper flooding to 
> dissipate the heat.
>
> Nick
>
> EDITED: Changed the QFN size from 45 to 49mm^2
>
>  
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: HV5523/HV5623

[Paul Andrews]

I use the HV9808. 32 bits, hardware blanking, 5v control lines. Just set VPP 
to, say, 75V using a zener. Easy Peasy to program using an Arduino and the SPI 
library.

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[neonixie-l] Re: HV5523/HV5623

[SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F.]

My guess is that the usually known norms are only meant for AC Mains 
Voltage where you have to expect 220V RMS, meaning the peak is around 350V 
and you have to calculate with multiple kA short-circuit current in case of 
a short circuit.

Since Microchip clearly does not target hobby electronics, i guess they 
would'nt make a prodcuct that cant be uses when you want to comply with 
norms. Commercial brand producers have to comply with alot of tests and 
norms before they even can sell their end product. 
These test would clearly fail if the space would be required to be 0.4mm 
and therefore they would never buy or consider using the HV5523 in the 
beginning if they would know that the IC would comply. I bet that there are 
alot of different norms for DC HV or "low current HV <500mA".

And another thing, i quess that the outputs are high-Z when they are off, 
and are connected to GND when they are on. So even if two pads would 
connect to each other, nothing spectacular or dangerous would happen. Even 
if a pad would connect to gnd, it would just result in a "always low" 
output.
Sinking 100mA per pin to ground by accident (usually the IC does the same 
by setting it HIGH) shouldt create any dangerous events like fire or so. 
Its much different than just conntect two AC (220V, 13Amps fused) Wires 
together with no load. 

Since the "low voltage" pins have a single side for themselfs on the IC the 
risk of connecting HV to LV is much lower..



And yes, right, in a nixie enviroment it doesn't matter at all, usually a 
medium size tube consumes 2-4mA per tube

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[neonixie-l] Re: HV5523/HV5623

[Tomasz Kowalczyk]

I'm a bit concerned about spacing between pads. The device states it is 
able to switch voltages as high as 220V. The QFN package has spacing 
between the pads is nominally 0,25mm. This is violating norms about PCB 
spacing vs. voltage, the least strict norm I found states that 0,4mm 
spacing is required between traces with 220V between them - and that's for 
coated PCB, pads should have even higher spacing. Add to that the fact, 
that the IC will not be places 100% at the right spot, which will tighten 
pad-to-pad distance even more.

Of course, this should generally work, just like Chinese 230V/5V adapters, 
which often run secondary voltage traces very close to primary (and I 
haven't seen a single one which had the air gap actually cut - only 
marked). They do violate design rules, but at the same time, they do their 
job.

In nixie world enviroment all of this shouldn't matter - while a tube is 
connected just via the anode, it doesn't mean that cathodes are at anode 
potential. Cathodes are ~110V lower than anode potential, they will always 
represent a voltage drop of at least some value. That means that we can 
ignore some of the problems, because with a 180V supply, the Supertex piece 
will see only about 70V, which requires only 0,13mm spacing. Still, the 
uncoated spacing (pads) should be wider than this value.
I also do not know if leftover flux increases or decreases breakdown 
voltage of pad-to-pad spacing, and in such piece I highly believe that 
there will be a small space between PCB and IC, in which leftover flux will 
be gathering, and it will be not removable.



W dniu sobota, 28 października 2017 19:33:45 UTC+2 użytkownik SWISSNIXIE - 
Jonathan F. napisał:
>
>
> Hi folks,
>
> We all know the PLCC Style HV-Drivers from Microchip, for example HV5530.
> All of them require a +12V Data Signal according to datasheet, but yet the 
> run in some circuits with even 5V data signals..
>
>
> While browsing microchips website i found HV5523/HV5623.
> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/hv5523.pdf 
> 
>   
>
>
> Those are fast 16Mhz registers with 5V logic data and can switch up to 
> 220V@100mA per Channel and come in a very small QFN package. (Attached an 
> image to PLCC for comparision)
> I will definitly order some of them to test :) they would help to make a 
> very slim and thin clock board :)
>
>
>
> Has anyone experimented with them already? Something to know?
>
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: HV5523/HV5623

[SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F.]

Nick, note that the 3.4W are "absolute maximum" which usually means the part is 
going to die if you go over that.

The part it self needs only 5V@25mA (when switching) plus the losses of the hv 
switches.

In a nixie clock i guess there are always only 3 outputs on per chip. 


I use the plcc 5122 which only has 1.2W heat dispatch and it doesnt get warm or 
so at all.

A crude way to solder the center pad is placing a hole under the chip and then 
solder it that way, but i'll give my planned board to a friend who has a 
soldering machine at work :)

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[neonixie-l] Re: HV5523/HV5623

[Nick]

I was surprised that the data sheet didn't give more thermal information 
relating to the pad  - the chip, under load, dissipates up to 3.4W in a 
very small package, so the pad is important.

It'd have to be reflow for it to work - that along with appropriate board 
design to carry the heat away...

Nick

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[neonixie-l] Re: HV5523/HV5623

[gregebert]

I've used a heat gun to remove surface mount parts, but never to install 
one. I removed a device that looks like the aforementioned QFN, and the 
metal die-paddle on the bottom took a lot of heat to remove the part. I 
toasted the PCB because there was no heat-control; the PCB delaminated and 
had small bubbles but nothing actually 'burned'.

If you are going to assemble with these, use a reflow oven. I've seen 
several articles online about using a modified toaster oven. I only use SMT 
devices with visible pins or nubs, and only by hand-soldering.

Perhaps electrically-conductive epoxy could be used for die-paddle on the 
bottom of the device, and hand-soldering for everything else ?

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[neonixie-l] Re: HV5523/HV5623

[newxito]

 

Very interesting, thanks! I will order some of these chips but I think I 
will not be able to solder them correctly. There are some videos on youtube 
showing how to solder QFN packages using tons of flux and hot air...

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[neonixie-l] Re: HV5523/HV5623

[SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F.]

Image  attached

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