Adam - nice question...definitely something to consider...especially in
light of democracy being understood as on the wane..well before Trump...or
becoming a 'managed' society as opposed to an active democracy.
On Wed, Jan 20, 2021 at 9:41 AM Lichty, Patrick M wrote:
> As a brief provocation,
As a brief provocation, I think the question might relate to the American form
of democracy versus other models like the Indian one, which has its own issues,
but it is operating at 3x the size of America. The norion of radical democracy
versus representative versus republican democracy, social
Hi Brian,
On 19/01/2021 19:29, Brian Holmes wrote:
> Democracy as collective self-governance basically works - to the
> extent it ever does work - when different groups of people achieve
> consensus and even some degree of common purpose by peaceful,
> procedural deliberation.
I am of the
One policy/information gathering goal—a Left policy ask—is building a
better measure of grassroots economic status (liberated from GDP, stock
exchanges, and other statistics serving neoliberal ends). Like Brian and
collaborators’ geography of alternative energy, we need a census of skills
and
The List needs a new Topic
On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 20:20, John Young wrote:
> Dmitry yodelled: "the hand-shake deal I made with Pit and Geert over
> swigs of Advocaat."
>
> Was that imbibery in Berlin?
>
> Neither P or G offered a deal or swig to a red-white-and-blue
> bloodied visitor
Dmitry yodelled: "the hand-shake deal I made with Pit and Geert over
swigs of Advocaat."
Was that imbibery in Berlin?
Neither P or G offered a deal or swig to a red-white-and-blue
bloodied visitor honoraried and imported to be ignored on a stage
facing circa 3-5 cell phone gazers in a vast
On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 6:51 AM Jean-Noël Montagné
wrote:
>
> I don't see the end of the neoliberal period in the maelstrom which
> gathers populists/Trump/Qanon activists. They still behave in a
> conservative way: guns, religion, free-market capitalism, climate change
> denial, covid harshness
Is calling someone a “maosplainer” a symptom of white rage?
Asking for a frenemy.
Peter
On Jan 18, 2021, at 11:18 AM, Dmytri Kleiner
mailto:d...@telekommunisten.net>> wrote:
On 2021-01-18 19:11, John Young wrote:
"iterate forward" is promisingly constructive action.
"Discover the truth
orm or style. Check the
content and the references, some of it seems useful to me. If not to
you, simply refer to "ignore", use a filter, whatever.
And, yes, the left needs a new strategy if it is becoming a
deplatforming, censorship apparatus that is more uptight and sens
Here is a "guerrilla" tactic that might put an end to this.
As many people as possible post to the thread. They mention words such as
"China", "Stalin", "Hong Kong", "Gulag", "Uyghur" in a vaguely litigious
manner. Since Dmytri apparently feels obliged to reply (verbosely and
repetitively) to
But yes, it sure would be great if over 50% of society would believe
stuff like healthcare should be free, housing is a right, education
should be available to all, etc.
But wait! Billions of people already do, yeah some in the US, but
billions in the global left, in China, Vietnam, North
Dmytri's position boils down to an absolute deference to "authentically
oppressed peoples" (or the chinese state, which is curiously synonymous
with the chinese people in his analysis) at the cost of unthinkingly eschewing
all of those other bothersome and inconvenient oppressed peoples (Uyghurs,
How about a strategy that goes through and beyond the envelopes of the
states?
Capitalism has been great at breaking barriers imposed by states in the
name of commodified production and profit, creating a global economic
system which calls itself "free" when it actually facilitates overdeveloped
On 2021-01-19 14:27, Bruce Robinson wrote:
I agree with Andreas. It is a far better example of Dmytri's much
vaunted 'proletarian internationalism' to support those in China, and
that the moment particularly Hong Kong, fighting for their rights
against the repressive and anti-working class
I agree with Andreas. It is a far better example of Dmytri's much
vaunted 'proletarian internationalism' to support those in China, and
that the moment particularly Hong Kong, fighting for their rights
against the repressive and anti-working class regime. I cannot see any
reason why the
On 2021-01-19 07:16, Andreas Broeckmann wrote:
However, as we all know, the government of China enjoys broad support
from it's people.
After all, by every measure they are doing better
than we are in terms of getting what they want from their government.
I'm not in the "we" group of your
Le 10/01/2021 à 06:15, Brian Holmes a écrit :
The end of the neoliberal period has coincided with a symbolic reversal in
politics: the torch of the partisan has passed from the insurgent Left of
1968 to the Qanon nationalists of today. This is a gigantic historical
shift.
[...]
As the old
Dmytri, for me, the conversation stops here:
> However, as we all know, the government of China enjoys broad support
> from it's people.
> After all, by every measure they are doing better
> than we are in terms of getting what they want from their government.
I'm not in the "we" group of your
ject or body 'help' to
> nettime-l-requ...@mail.kein.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> nettime-l-ow...@mail.kein.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of nettime-l digest..."
>
>
> T
On 2021-01-18 19:22, Geoffrey Goodell wrote:
Every now and then,
people talk of forcing his removal, but for various logistical reasons
this
seems not to be possible, and moreover the other people on the list
want to
profess openness to debate.
[...]
So, I must ask: Is it possible that
I am sure you heard last week's joke, Iain:
"Due to the pandemic, the United States decided to have its coup at home
this year."
Has anyone heard one about the Green Zone?
cheers, BH
On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 5:33 PM Iain Boal wrote:
> OK, John, apologies. Mistakes were made. I was not feeling
OK, John, apologies. Mistakes were made. I was not feeling well. I now
recognize my "name-calling destructiveness”. I retract "sinomane”. Would
“sinophilic” meet your approval? As for “telecommunist”, you surely noticed,
it's their self-description!
Those nettimers, stakhanovite heroes and
On 2021-01-18 21:09, Andreas Broeckmann wrote:
i find it unbearable though to see untenable claims of "mccarthyism"
made against somebody who just stays in an argument, when anybody in
his right mind should know that we must reserve the "mccarthy"
reference to cases where livelihoods are
On 2021-01-18 23:47, Allanmini2 wrote:
What is also unbearable is someone who name drops revolutionary and
theoretical icons (gee, how did you miss Rosa Luxemburg or Nelson
Mandela, etc. etc. Dmytri?) as if the names alone qualify you to
continue with unbearably one dimensional verbiage about
Hello
Thank you Andreas!
What is also unbearable is someone who name drops revolutionary and
theoretical icons (gee, how did you miss Rosa Luxemburg or Nelson
Mandela, etc. etc. Dmytri?) as if the names alone qualify you to
continue with unbearably one dimensional verbiage about strategies for
On 2021-01-18 23:11, podinski wrote:
But i am going to move on, without feeling too abused this time... it
was simply ear-less mansplaining + more-radical-than- you attitude...
at
a pretty belligerent level ! And i can laugh a little more about it now
!
Once again, you come in with insults
Hi, everyone -
Watching this curiously as I re-acclimate to being back in the United States
after 5 years based in the UAE, but engaged in thinking across the Caucusus,
Turkey, Armenia/Azerbaijan, the I-place, and the Central Asian -Stans, and a
tiny bit of China.
Being that I
folks, i know that there are peace negotiations under way among left
intellectuals and activists on this list; i hope they will be fruitful.
i find it unbearable though to see untenable claims of "mccarthyism"
made against somebody who just stays in an argument, when anybody in his
right
On 2021-01-18 20:26, Brian Holmes wrote:
Why don't we all just cool out? I am glad to bury the hatchet. It's
also possible to simply not read what one has no patience for.
Yes, and when we talk in person, social cues, back channel and nonverbal
communications enrich the dialog, reducing the
Well said. Concur. Agree. Whew. Where is Ted?
At 02:26 PM 1/18/2021, you wrote:
Geoffrey Goodell wrote:
"So, I must ask: Is it possible that our pseudonymous contributor is
deliberately seeking to exploit our respect for anonymous speech as a way to
undermine our forum?"
I've met Dmitry, he
Geoffrey Goodell wrote:
"So, I must ask: Is it possible that our pseudonymous contributor is
deliberately seeking to exploit our respect for anonymous speech as a way to
undermine our forum?"
I've met Dmitry, he is an actual person, well known in Berlin, involved in
practices relevant to this
On 2021-01-18 19:11, John Young wrote:
"iterate forward" is promisingly constructive action.
"Discover the truth through practice, and again through practice verify
and develop the truth. Start from perceptual knowledge and actively
develop it into rational knowledge; then start from
Indeed, The horrors of Joseph Conrad:
The Gentleperson's Guide To Forum Spies
https://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm
Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum.
Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation
Eight Traits of the Disinformationalist
Saboteurs
All right, but which one? The CPC?
I thought I have to be a migrant worker in China to really understand the true
emancipatory nature of the CPC. Else I can neither criticise them nor follow
them. Because ignoring China is not an option either. We are all lost.
So it all ends up in a double
Dear Iain,
I'm not sure whether it adds anything to the discussion, but I've experienced
this before.
I am on a mailing list for alumni of a particular house at my undergraduate
university. One particular contributor to this list has unleashed (and
continues to do so) an unending stream of
Time for us all to be useful idiots, and follow the Party line!!
Joe.
> Le 18 janv. 2021 à 19:01, Roman Seidl a écrit :
>
> For some time it was kind of entertaining to read something which seems
> totally out of time, like from the 1980s. It seems like it's going to go on
> like this for
"iterate forward" is promisingly constructive action. Not so much
name-callingly destructive "sinomane telecommunist."
Demanding moderators to regulate is hardly insightful, more
inciteful, downright spiteful.
My cognita wistful at paralyzing ad homina.
So say, this forum must not suppress
For some time it was kind of entertaining to read something which seems totally
out of time, like from the 1980s. It seems like it's going to go on like this
for ever. We are all going to get insulted until "strategic ‘intervention' from
our moderators" takes place.
I stopped reading it but
Notes:
- I'm an unknown, illegitimate, defiler with a mania for china.
- Brian is a profound ubermench whose invoking of stalin and hungary
where totally relevant.
- The mods should intervene to silence me.
Just a coincidence that none of these folks, supposedly interested in
dialogical
Nettimers,
I’ve no idea of the identity of the sinomane telecommunist (‘Kleiner') defiling
this conversation, or their whereabouts, or their condition (though the
aggressive logorrhoea is suggestive). However, to call Brian’s profound - and
profoundly open, generous, and dialogical -
On 2021-01-18 13:42, Felix Stalder wrote:
So, what exactly is the lesson that China holds for "us", that is,
cultural/knowledge workers
While these questions hold promise, it feels to me like the precondition
is that cultural/knowledge workers in the west stop carrying water for
US
On 16.01.21 17:40, Dmytri Kleiner wrote:
> You can't do "a China" in your country. You can, however, work to
> improve the conditions of people in your country, while working against
> the aggression of your country abroad.
Yes, obviously we cannot, and should not, "do" China. In the same way
On 17/01/2021 15:03, Dmytri Kleiner wrote:
> I think the recent success of MAS in Boliva is instructive here. MAS,
> from what I understand, is not the movement, but rather it is referred
> to as "the instrument" of the movement. Even short of a Coup like the
> one against Morales,
Have the Honduran migrants issued a manifesto? Few flags, posters,
banners, orators in the highway pics. Impressively orderly unlike the
DC batshitters.
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# collaborative text filtering
On 2021-01-16 21:33, Brian Holmes wrote:
I keep writing in this thread because it would be just too absurd to
abandon the theorization of the present for some banal Stalinist ideas
of the 1950s - as though the Soviet invasion of Hungary never
happened, whew, what nonsense.
You are a
On 2021-01-16 20:01, Vincent Gaulin wrote:
This kind of pro-institutionalism parses out
the difference between a "good state" and a "bad state" in a way that
anarcho-politics' anti-statism, overvaluing of protest, and wholesale
scepticism of hierarchy never will.
And yet remains dialogically
hello,
What a strange trip this has been... since most people in this
discussion are not from China (or live there) this pedantic discussion
about the pros and cons of communist party strategies of the Chinese
government does not significantly address the presumed focus of this
discussion.
Joseph Rabie wrote:
"For those (as myself) who consider Capitalism a dead end, trying to
understand why Communism could not perdure in a country such as China (or
the USSR, or the Eastern Bloc) is of interest."
Joe, I went to China several times and I could observe a few things about
Chinese
i know nothing but in america the strategy is red, in europe it's green.
On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 10:49 PM Ryan Griffis
wrote:
> On Jan 12, 2021, at 2:13 PM, From: Dmytri Kleiner
> wrote:
> >
> > What does? Do I need to be pedantic here and explain that they where
> > attempting to use Jo?o
Communo-Capitalism or Capita-Communism or simply Socialism of
whatever stripe continues to produce wealth accumulators at the top,
middle and indeterminate over the underpaid generators
of unstoppable greed, aided and abetted by the learned and
facilitator class serving every economic level,
On 2021-01-16 16:53, Joseph Rabie wrote:
Le 16 janv. 2021 à 11:24, Dmytri Kleiner a
écrit :
Judging China is not a part of his strategy, and should not be,
because it's a bad strategy. We should trust the Chinese workers to
resolve their contradictions, and focus on our own rather than
> Le 16 janv. 2021 à 11:24, Dmytri Kleiner a écrit :
>
> Judging China is not a part of his strategy, and should not be, because it's
> a bad strategy. We should trust the Chinese workers to resolve their
> contradictions, and focus on our own rather than allowing our elite to
> propagandize
On 2021-01-16 02:22, Joseph Rabie wrote:
China is a single-party state ruled by a Communist Party.
I'm sure that the Chinese workers know this, so not sure why you're
telling us. If you are interested in how the Chinese government works,
Daniel A Bell is interesting, for example:
On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 7:00 PM Molly Hankwitz
wrote:
"I only hope that our police and our National Guard don't turn their guns
onto a democratic system which has begun to change by virtue of the
voteas leadership like Ocasio-Cortez and Stacy Abrams have shown."
Change by the vote is the
China is a single-party state ruled by a Communist Party. At the same time, it
has become the leading actor of the global market economy, with the usual
trappings of capitalism - millionaires, stock exchanges, labour exploitation,
etc.
In the face of such contradictions, how might one even
On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 11:54 PM Brian Holmes
wrote:
> Perhaps this thing called the Left exists in a world where actions have
> consequences.
>
Or perhaps the Left has too long lingered in its own beautiful realm of
theory only to find that the far right has guns and are willing to use them
to
No need to answer inane provocations, shallow insults, sterile
ejaculations, like this sentence.
Ignore them, or best to offer constructive comments as you most often
do, those which lead to productive exchanges. Like this sentence.
At 03:22 PM 1/15/2021, you wrote:
For what reason do you
For what reason do you wish to evaluate China? Do they need to fulfill
some doctrinaire and idealist definition of communism such that we don't
denounce them and deny their accomplishments?
The CPC has many millions of well-informed members. What does our
ill-informed opinion matter?
And
A question for Dmytri:
Is China a truly Communist country, and if so, what are the markers of this?
Best -
Joseph Rabie.
# distributed via : no commercial use without permission
#is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
# collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the
On 2021-01-12 22:49, Ryan Griffis wrote:
Dmytri, I have no interest in engaging further in whatever it is
you’re doing, or think you’re doing, here.
Why do you feel my contribution here is particularly suspicious or
illegitimate?
I did *not* attempt "to use _ Stedile, a leader of MST,
On 2021-01-15 10:55, William Waites wrote:
These days I spend most of my time in some sort of no-man's land
between
theoretical computer science and applied mathematics. I don't know much
about the philosophers that you quote.
Everything I know about philosophy I learned from Existential
Am 11/01/21 um 13:59 schrieb Frank Rieger:
> China is just another imperialist racist state that happens to be the enemy
> of the other large imperialist racist state, the US. I can understand the
> need for a shining beacon of hope for the left. China & Co. are not it.
Isnt that life as usual?
Hello Nettime,
I'm sorry to see that this thread has degenerated, but I wonder whether
this was inevitable. Are the terms "left" and "right" meaningful any
more, as an axis to distinguish political positions?
We have, apparently, established that the "right" says is favours a
small state,
Dmytri Kleiner writes:
> Federated small groups with voluntary structures that analyze and
> iterate. [...] The trouble is the western left has mostly abandoned
> this strategy in favour of third party "advocacy" or "mobilizing" or
> other punditry and doesn't want to be on the same team as the
I'm really glad this fascinating thread led, as I see it, back to the "net"
in nettime (with Dmytri's comments about punditry being second to tech
stuff). I generally believe that this list is at its best when we (many of
us, at least) are reckoning with/leading with our positionality as tech
On 2021-01-12 04:38, Frank Rieger wrote:
Dimitry, just for the record: I don´t speak for the CCC here.
Hey Frank, yeah, I didn't mean to imply that you did, just brought up
CCC because it's such a great community, there are very few like it, and
as such, there is much to learn from it.
Perhaps this thing called the Left exists in a world where actions have
consequences. That would be a good reason to have a strategy.
Many situations today require it.
Consider a New York Times article datemarked Jan. 8, by a German woman
named Anna Sauerbrey, under the title "Far-Right
Hiya,
I've just been appreciating this passionate series of posts. However,
it's noticeable that everyone describes the government of China as the
Chinese Communist Party or CCP. I've been told on more than one occasion
by Chinese students that this lazy mistake is very annoying for them.
On Jan 12, 2021, at 2:13 PM, From: Dmytri Kleiner
wrote:
>
> What does? Do I need to be pedantic here and explain that they where
> attempting to use Jo?o Pedro, a leader of MST, against China? They are
> obviously using a third party logic, Jo?o Pedro is not a leader of
> China, it is
when in doubt just stfu and listen.
McCorkle Terence Diamond
www.terencediamond.com
646-876-1700
*The sage does not hoard*
*The more he helps others, the more he benefits himself.*
*The more he gives to others, the more he gets for himself.*
*The way of heaven always does one good and never
On 2021-01-12 00:43, Flick Harrison wrote:
Dmitry is really swinging a wrecking ball today! Representing the
Left wing of the Global Authoritarian Detente. And here we thought it
was only the far right that would be gasllighting us this week.
So you categorize me with we cartoonish cold war
So, I don't buy my ink by the barrel, so can't respond to everything in
this gish gallop, but I'll share my notes.
- I'm the real narcissist, possibly crazy.
- Some boilerplate stuff about "us and them purism"
- I'm a tankie LARPer with "heroes"
- Some filler words about being more than
Dimitry, just for the record: I don´t speak for the CCC here. And the "both
sides" strawman you are creating is just trying to obscure the problem that
"the ends justify the means" is not a long-term viable concept for both ethical
and practical reasons. Idolizing an imperialist and oppressive
Thank you, Flick. Much obliged.
Is our Communist by chance a relative of maximum leader Dmitry, the one on the
receiving end of that red - so to speak - phone call from President Merkin
Muffley and General Buck Turgidson, in the aftermath of RAF Group Captain
Mandrake’s failure, at Burpleson
Dmitry has punctured the unanimty of herdishness in this feed ot of
cud-chewing bovinity methanely enlightening. Blah blah blahing,
breaking wind lon the left and rightly so. It's a fine echo of I Hate Men.
At 06:43 PM 1/11/2021, you wrote:
Dmitry is really swinging a wrecking ball today!
Dmitry is really swinging a wrecking ball today! Representing the Left wing of
the Global Authoritarian Detente. And here we thought it was only the far
right that would be gasllighting us this week.
> On Jan 11, 2021, at 14:18 , d...@telekommunisten.net wrote:
>
> I have great respect for
Hello, Excuse me Dmytri but one-dimensional analyses don't help anyone
(the oppressed or the confused) develop a winning new left strategy (if
such a thing actually exists). And, if you think it does maybe you
should post the email address so we can download the winning game plan.
You think
On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 3:57 PM Dmytri Kleiner
wrote:
> They are narcissistic propagandists.
>
Yes, pathological narcissism is a real problem. But since you never ask a
genuine question, never look closely at the actual forces in play, and
continually center yourself as the source of an
MST leader João Pedro Stédile way back in 2008
Here is something more recent from João Pedro:
https://mronline.org/2020/04/17/neoliberalism-and-finance-capital-have-been-defeated-by-coronavirus/
"China is also consolidating its power economically and politically. He
said that this shift,
On 2021-01-11 20:28, Francis Hunger wrote:
I'm surprised by the arrogant and insulting tone of your mail.
Defending China always brings out the tone police, no doubt the labels
and pejoratives are soon to follow.
There has been a long line of Marxist critique which acknowledges the
On 2021-01-11 19:02, Ryan Griffis wrote:
Can you help explain how we should be understanding the MST alongside
the CCP, as related strategies of a global left?
Both the CCP and the MST are direct movements of the oppressed, and
fight to improve their material conditions.
I guess the
On 2021-01-11 16:55, Dmytri Kleiner wrote:
Frank, honestly, and with all due respect, it is your take that is
boring beyond words.
And just to be clear, when I say with all due respect, I mean it. CCC
has many commendable projects, including Chaos Macht Schule, and has
worked with the local
Dmytri,
I'm surprised by the arrogant and insulting tone of your mail.
There has been a long line of Marxist critique which acknowledges the
atrocities of Stalinism and questions the state fixation of the
traditional reading of Marxism, while still being able to deliver a
notion of
Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 22:56:39 +0100
> From: Dmytri Kleiner
>
> The Communist Party of China knows, as do the Communist Parties of
> India, as does the MST in Brazil, and the movements behind the MAS in
> Bolovia. NUMSA knows. The left has a strategy, and through struggle and
>
In May 1968 nearly all of us red-bloodied patriots had never heard or
seen or knew a real live admitted Marxist, with full black beard and
longish hair, intense eyes, speaking quietly to a group of students
sitting on a university floor, having just joined a sit-in and
awaited directions from
Frank, honestly, and with all due respect, it is your take that is
boring beyond words.
It is, word-for-word, the one that is propagated by the imperialist
institutions that play the embedded left like a fiddle, it is so boring
it could well have been written by a twitter ebooks bot, and it
> On 10. Jan 2021, at 22:56, Dmytri Kleiner wrote:
>
> Meanwhile, the “old left” we made fun of, the “authoritarian” and “out of
> date” mostly brown and yellow “Tankies” of the world, like the Communist
> Parties of China, Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea, the “pink tide” in Latin
> America,
Thank you.
They are narcissistic propagandists.
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On 2021-01-10 06:15, Brian Holmes wrote:
Be certain that our side will respond over the next couple years. Be
part of it.
The left has a strategy, you just may not know because you are not
invovled.
The Communist Party of China knows, as do the Communist Parties of
India, as does the MST
On 1/10/21 12:15 AM, Brian Holmes wrote:
>
> Qanon is for them. We have to invent something.
how about The Gift Economy? (though definitely more of a *re*invention
rather than something new we'll create out of whole cloth)
~c
--
Charlie Derr Director, Instructional Technology
The end of the neoliberal period has coincided with a symbolic reversal in
politics: the torch of the partisan has passed from the insurgent Left of
1968 to the Qanon nationalists of today. This is a gigantic historical
shift.
I'm thinking of the arch-conservative Carl Schmidt, who in 1962
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