[NSP] Re: Mallorca melody
It says "The Late Duke of Windsor" and I always assumed this was the former Edward VIII who succeeded to the throne in 1936, abdicated so he could marry Wallace Simpson, and died in 1972 after spending the rest of his life in France. According to Wikipedia, the title Duke of Windsor was created for him, so it can't have been an earlier Duke - as I briefly thought it might have been when considering the phrase "Late" D of W. Perhaps he wrote it while Prince of Wales - but I believe he always hated Balmoral, so probably wasn't much of an appreciator of Highland pipes, and it's plainly a Highland pipe tune. It's very much like another Highland pipe tune, with a Gaelic name I can't remember just now, but the Gaelic does sound close enough to "Mallorca" for this to be an English corruption of it. Does anybody know any more, which might support my theory that HRH Prince Edward may have just renamed an existing tune, maybe with a bit of alteration, when he didn't quite hear the Gaelic correctly? Philip - Original Message - From: "Kevin" To: Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 9:52 PM Subject: [NSP] Mallorca melody Hi to All, Can anyone tell me the origins of the the tune Mallorca (1st NSP Tune Book), how old it is, and why it was written, and which member of the Royal Family wrote it? Best wishes, Kevin -- http://www.ethnopiper.com http://www.youtube.com/kevnsp http://kevnsp.blogspot.com http://ethnopiper.blogspot.com http://facebook.com/kevin.tilbury http://soundcloud.com/kevnsp -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: flat chanter in the middle
Kevin, Your problem is most likely to be caused by the reed, though what John says about the length of the chanter is also true up to a point. A reed which is too weak, having been over-thinned especially at the bridle end, often produces false/flat notes in the middle of the chanter. Squeezing the reed more open can improve it, as Barry says, though of course makes it harder to blow, and with a basically weak reed the tone is still flabby - too lacking in high harmonics. I have quite frequently solved a problem like yours by clipping a VERY small bit off the end of the reed lips, using sharp end-clippers which I keep exclusively for reeds. This is a bit of a risky proceedure if you are not used to it, though. After clipping, you will probably need to thin just the tips VERY carefully by rubbing on fine abrasive paper, but be careful here, because you can easily thin too much and weaken it fatally again - so you have to clip a bit more off, and so on..! The best solution may just be to try a new reed which is bright sounding, but easy to blow, by being scraped evenly down to a fine tip, while still keeping just enough strength in the sides - though beware that a reed that is TOO strong in the sides will squeak more easily on the low notes. Philip From: "Gibbons, John" To: "NSP group" Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 10:32 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: flat chanter in the middle Kevin If it is a 7-key chanter, one possible cause is a reflection from the foot of the chanter, nearly in resonance with the upper part between the reed and the d hole. If so this resonance might be flat, dragging the d down a bit. Try pushing the cotton wool plug a few mm up the chanter? This helped with the first chanter I owned, though buying one that was made in tune is the way I finally cured that problem. As yours has been in tune before, tweaking the plug might help. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of cwhill [cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: 13 November 2011 22:14 To: NSP group Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: flat chanter in the middle I'm presuming that both g notes are actually sounding the proper note? I know you have said they are correct to the drones but those particular notes sound terrible if the drones are just a wee bit off. Do you have access to a tuner? I'd check that the g's on the chanter and drones are actually playing the same note and then check the middle notes to see if they are actually "off" (to the d/D drones). Even the best ears can have off days. Did you make or buy the reed? There's always a little work today on a bought reed to get it to suit your own chanter. Even home made ones can seem fine but do that. I forget how I fixed mine (a long time ago now) but I never got it spot on. When Colin Ross refettled my pipes and made me a new reed for them that problem vanished completely (before I had to just add a little pressure whenever I played a certain note). I'm afraid my unwarranted pride in making a (nearly) good reed took over from common sense :) Colin Hill On 13/11/2011 20:57, Barry Say wrote: Hi Kevin Do you know what pitch you are tuning at. Is it the same as before? Do you know what pressure you're playing at. Is it the same as before? You could have a reed which naturally gives a flatter d . My guess would be to open the reed a fraction and increase your playing pressure slightly. If that works but the playing pressure is too high, get back to me. On list will be fine. Barry - "These things may solve your worst nightmare, or they may eat all of the cheese in your house. I make no guarantees. YMMV. " Kevin wrote: Hi to All, Can anyone advice me on the tuning of my chanter to the drones. The top G and the bottom G are in tune with the drones but the middle notes especially the D is a fraction out of tune, a little flat. is this rectified by moving the reed, if so which way? or opening the reed or closing it? the chanter has been in tune in the past but since changing the reed i find these problems, it is either the top/bottom notes are out or the middle notes are outany advice? thanks kevin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sad news for singing and piping
Very sad news. I knew Ray best back in 1984, when I was visiting Colin regularly to learn pipe-making. Ray was often around, always kind and welcoming, and sometimes gave me a meal with them if I stayed on to go with Colin to the pipe-making evening class he taught at that time. As it says in the Guardian obituary, she did indeed have - " a gift for making people laugh, with witty comments", and she would often have dryly witty observations to make on the obsessions and characters of the piping world! Incidentally, the obituary describes Colin as "fiddler and Northumbrian piper" - so it seems pipe making has not yet entered the radar of mainstream journalism. Later, Ray sometimes helped Elizabeth with sourcing material for pipe-bag covers, and they were able to share and compare notes on being married to pipe-makers! We both send our sympathy to Colin. Philip On 01/09/2011 20:56, Julia Say wrote: Those of you who knew Colin Ross' wife, Ray, and haven't so far heard from other singing or social forums, will be saddened to learn of her death yesterday. She had been ill for some time and finally succumbed to several conditions. Messages are flooding on to various lists and boards and there is an obit on the Guardian website http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/sep/01/ray-fisher-obituary ?INTCMP=SRCH Colin is coping as well as can be expected and has family with him, but as he is himself not totally well, please no phone calls to the family home, they simply cannot deal with the volume of calls. Email messages will be received (though probably not answered, again due to volume) and cards are fine. He is very grateful for the messages received so far and the support and appreciation of the piping community. Ray was of course an internationally respected traditional singer with an extensive family, and singing will play a large part in the farewell ceremony. It is at 2.15 pm on Monday 12 September at Whitley Bay. Pipers have been requested: please email me for more details if you are likely to come, so I know how big a turnout of players to expect. There is a social event afterwards as well. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: G (?) chanter on ebay
It certainly looks like a G chanter - size & spacing of holes in proportion to the length are typical. It's not one of mine. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Thanks Chris - before I started to write my post, I wondered if I should leave it to you. You've added eloquently to what I was trying to say. Memorising a short but exquisite poem is one thing, memorising, say, War and Peace or the telephone directory is another. Both The Iliad and the Odyssey were almost certainly entirely orally/aurally composed, (varied obviously) and passed on before they were written down. A sobering thought for some of us who struggle to remember tunes, and forget people's names. And singing Wotan in Wagner's Ring is quite a feat of memory too. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Quoting Barry they had to 'write' music which professional musicians could play either almost or completely at sight, and all the directions had to be on the page. The larger the group of musicians, the more more meticulous the directions had to be. To my way of thinking, in the classical mode (as I have described it) the technical terms are prescriptive and the Composer to the Elector of Wotsitburg can say to his orchestra, "When I say this bit is staccato I mean "Proper Poppa dopadumds". A good post, Barry, and basically you are right about later classical music - 19th century and later, when the composer had become the "Great Artist" and large professional orchestras have to play it right - and especially when economics mean minimal rehearsal time. But just to be pedantic, you are not quite right about the Elector of Wotsitburg era. Then, directions on the page were usually minimal - sometimes just the bare notes and slurs if you were lucky (at least just where they were really wanted), 'stacato' dots sometimes, and very ocasionally a direction like "forte". A very few composers were very exact e.g. with ornaments, and provided a page showing what their various signs meant. Most of the time musicians were playing new music, and if professionals they often had the composer directing them (so you are right about the "Proper Poppa dopadums" bit). Othersise, think more like Jazz - there were established conventions which included e.g. very variable ways of playing notated 'staccato', degrees of rhythmic flexibility etc. depending on context, dance types, national styles, and mood of the music. Apart from that, musicians had much more freedom to interpret and improvise. Soloists were very much expected to decorate the music, though of course orchestras did have to do it all the same, so among other factors it's the growth of bigger orchestras which led to more exact written directions. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: divorce
Well said, Dave! and well supported, Chris! I have not yet been bothered to sign up to the new group, though I suppose if I want to keep in touch I will have to sometime. This list has served a very good purpose for a long time, please keep it going and resist exclusive fundamentalism, however well-intentioned that may sometimes be. Philip - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:53 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: divorce -Original Message- From: BIRCH Christopher (DGT) Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 9:53 AM To: 'Dave S' Subject: RE: [NSP] divorce Well said, Dave! C -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Dave S Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 9:38 AM To: Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site Subject: [NSP] divorce Hi, It seems as though Inky has his wish. The tradition is now firmly no longer out in the open. This list served the purpose of introducing the beginner(shy fence-sitter to brash young expert) to light conversation/disagreement/proposition on all subjects around the wonderful instrument known as the NSP. It has done this well for a good number of years, but I believe the polarisation Inky wrongly thought was necessary to save his ideal methodology (rightly or wrongly) of the ONLY way to play NSP has wrought more damage than can now be imagined. I would liken it to attempting to harmonize the accents used by people in any single country of the world. I find it rather saddening that this has occurred - I will continue to listen and reply to try and keep this list going -- will the rest of you out there do the same ?? Inky has a good heart but perhaps a too impulsive temperament has taken over in this case -- why not teach your method to the masses by force of persuation, Inky, and not by force of typing. Of course there are multiple sides in the recent situation but I hope our love the instrument, it's possibilities and it's beatiful music will eventually prevail over the hot tempered reactions. ciao Dave S To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Whatever!
- Original Message - From: Adrian indulges in ad hominem (and especially ad feminam) attacks himself often enough. C Can't resist a bit of pedantry - and reversion to my long-ago alter-ego as a Latin teacher! 'ad hominem' can apply to women too, since strictly speaking 'homo' means member of mankind -'man' as opposed to beast or god, not male person as opposed to female. 'Man' as opposed to Woman is 'Vir', so it would have to be 'ad virum' if you wanted to be precise about the victim's sex. Having said that, Roman society was so male-dominated that 'homo' in practice usually means a male, unless woman is specified. Anyway Chris, well done for getting the ending right - most people these days neither know nor care...;-) (actually, I suppose, *most* people never did) Grumpy Old Man, Educational Standards Going to the Dogs etc. etc. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: even more on G and D
So... Can I (temporarily?) get this thread back on track and ask my original question again? There have been some promising replies coming - and Adrian began to develop a useful thread which has now gone off into rarefied realms of temperament and drones when playing in C major. However ... If I make a "normal" 14-key chanter, designed around playing in G and D, with just low B and C keys ARRANGED B-LEFT C-RIGHT plus a C# on the right-hand side, BUT (and this seems to be a critical factor) without a low A, am I going to produce a wierd one-off thing which will annoy future players who may own it after the immediate client passes on, OR will I be helping forward a more logical trend of pipe-making and playing? (sorry about the catitals - I'm not shouting, just emphasising :-) ) Philip - Original Message - From: "Julia Say" To: ; ; Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 11:57 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: even more on G and D On 10 May 2011, Christopher.Birch@ec.europa.e wrote: I don't understand the reference to temperament here. It may be irrelevant, Chris, I'm rather busy and have a lot going on in my head. I don't claim to have thoroughly thought through every word of my posting. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Clough v Reid - keys sequence
a.d.s wrote Clough played in A maj and C maj. The arrangement of the Clough arrangement of key's was C low at the left side and B at the right side and that would allow player's to play in B and play the Beeswing, Underhand and whatever. Thanks for the replies on and off-list so far. As expected, there are differing opinions. Adrian - are you saying that a B left, C right arrangement will make it significantly harder to play Beeswing, Underhand etc? Is the classic CB style essential/desirable for the traditional virtuoso repertoire? If I start making chanters with BC instead of the traditional CB, am I sending non-standard instruments out into the piping world which will hamper their future owners for years to come? Or will they join Colin's chanters with ABC, low G's etc. as part of the rich tapestry, which players will get used to? Should pipe-makers adopt a new standard with a left-side low B, but try to make it still just as easy to hit in arpeggios down from G/D as a right-side low B? Maybe this should only be done where there is also a right-side C# paired with D, but not where the C# is on the left? Philip - Original Message - From: "a.d.s" To: Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 1:36 AM Subject: [NSP] Clough v Reid Hello all, I don't know of any player's since Clough that played in C except me and those that followed my example. Top C was added to my chanter by Colin, which was in F, which allowed me to play from low C to top C. This was a first as far as I know; bottom G didn't exist then. Adrian -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Low keys sequence
May I put out a request for opinions from the NSP community? Apologies for raising a subject which has been discussed several times before - though maybe not in precisely the same terms, and I like to keep abreast of the latest thinking among better players than me. Traditionally, the low B and C on an extended chanter have been arranged with the B on the right and the C on the left, but Colin has pioneered various other arrangements - especially three-key groupings with the order going A,B,C left to right. I think there seems to be a growing opinion that even with just the two low keys, B and C, it is also more convenient to have them with B on the left & C on the right. Having myself recently tried a chanter by Colin with the low keys in that order, I must say it is much more intuitive, but then I've never regularly played one myself with either arrangement - only made them for other people (always the traditional way so far). "Scale order" left to right obviously makes sense when there's also a low C# paired with the D in the right side slot - at least when playing scale passages e.g. in the accompaniment to duet slow airs, though in rapid arpeggio playing it may be better the traditional way. I have just given a customer the choice - he is a very good player, and has been professional on other wind instruments, but he is outside the NSP mainstream and has only ever played a 7-key chanter. I explained the options, and suggested the B-on-the-left arrangement, which after consideration he's gone for - but as I said, without the experience. What do people think? Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Historical image of John Dunn, John Peacock?
- Original Message - From: "Matt Seattle" Also, I wonder whether the keywork added by Dunn was 'chromatic' at this stage, but others will know more about this than I do. No it was not chromatic, being just the four keys for low D, E, Fsharp and high A, which just extended the range of the diatonic scale of G. Notes are only "chromatic" when they do not form part of the major or minor scale in which the music is played. Strictly speaking, I suppose one could say that when playing a C natural in a tune which is otherwise in the key of D major, a C natural would be a "chromatic alteration" - but that's rather stretching the point. If, as on the Dunn chanter, there is no C#, so that ALL the C's have to be natural even in a tune whose tonic is D, then it's just a modal tune with a flattened 7th, I think. However, an occasional C natural in a D major tune with mostly C sharps, would be chromatic, while the C sharp key (when it was added later) would not be chromatic as long as the tune is in D - but in a G major tune it would be! "Chromatic" also means a scale moving by semitones, and you couldn't play any part of a chromatic scale on a 4-key Dunn chanter, like the B, C, C#, D, D#, E scale which is possible on a 7-key chanter. Still - in common parlance, "chromatic" generally just means the black notes on the piano, so perhaps Wiki may be just using conventional terminology to mean Dunn started the process of adding extra keys, which is fair enough and clearly conveys what most readers will quickly understand. Still, all praise to Matthew for putting up the article and bringing another small bit of the highly specialist Northumbrian pipe world into the wider public domain - and isn't that engraving wonderful? Must be Bewick's workshop, surely. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Has there ever been an NSP with _all_ keys (no open holes)?
I haven't seen the Bowes Museum pipes either. I've never been to the museum even though I've driven through Barnard Castle at least a hundred times, but always on the way to or from Durham or Newcastle - no time to stop or well outside museum opening hours. However, I think it's very well worth going not just for those strange pipes. There is a picture of them here http://www.thebowesmuseum.org.uk/collections/objects/category/8/3396/ If the direct link doesn't work, go to the Bowes Museum website http://www.thebowesmuseum.org.uk/ and use "search the collection" - "musical instruments". I must look out the article in the NPS journal, but has it been suggested that the pipes are in fact a Sordellina - or at least a nineteenth century attempt to carry on the Sordellina tradition? The turning and drone ends do look more Irish Union-pipe or Northumbrian, rather like Reid's work in fact, but that inlaid stock looks very continental - more French than Italian perhaps. It looks as if there may be two chanters, plus that extraordinary doubled-back "regulator" which is very characteristic of the Sordellina - perhaps the ultimate in elaborate but dead-end bagpipe invention, invented in Naples in the 16th century and developed during the 17th. Mersenne has a famously impossible-looking picture, with the note that he hasn't seen one, but includes a drawing so that French instrument makers could attempt to build it. The theory was that compositions in four-parts All you need to know about it in this article - plus pictures right at the end. http://www.seanreidsociety.org/SRSJ2/the%20sordellina.pdf Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
- Original Message - From: "Julia Say" This can also be seen on some modern sets (various makers), although I have been taught to put a rod down the bore before drilling to prevent it happening! (And had the bore inspected closely to check I'd done so!) Sets have been observed where the maker has absent-mindedly drilled right through the far side, I believe. Whereas I can't claim NEVER to have touched the far side of the bore (a good tune title?) I'll just say that with care, a flat-ended drill and delicacy of touch, there should be no need for rods down the bore. You just stop the drill before it goes too deep! Answering Colin's earlier post: until the invention of the tuning fork, there was no "set" or "standard" pitch as such. In fact, according to the latest research (Bruce Haynes' fairly definitive book "The story of A - a history of performing pitch") even in the late 16th/early 17th century there were three main standardised pitches generally recognised across Europe, and the fact that there were only a few centres where the best wind instruments were made helped to determine this - but it's a complex subject, best summed up in the biblical quotation "He that toucheth pitch shall be defiled therewith". Very interesting discussion though. Thanks for all the contributions. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shellac
Hello Anthony and all, I always used to use Mike Nelson's method of sticking on key pads, and agree with your comments of it mostly working well and forming the pad to the shape of the seating. However I have now gone back to the method I originally learned form Colin - the drop of sticky shellac applied with a small brush, or in my case the end of a metal scriber. This is partly because Mike's method is fiddly and time consuming - sticking pads on a 17-key chanter with tiny flakes of shellac and a soldering iron can get very tedious - but my main reason for changing was because I decided it could sometimes contribute to squeaking. The shaped pad has a hard "lump" in the middle - solidified shellac under the leather of the pad - and this could mean that it occasionally doesn't seal so well and causes a squeak. Admittedly this is only a problem if the key has too much side play in the slot, so that the lump comes down not quite central, but I think it is still a factor to consider. Philip - Original Message - From: "Anthony Robb" To: Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 1:11 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Shellac Hello Francis and Paul David B uses shellac on his silver mounted sets. As Paul's set is made from lignum it won't be a Burleigh set. So shellac seems to make sense in this case. When it comes to pad fixing Mike Nelson's method of using a small piece of flake shellac between pad and key in situ on the chanter and then gentle pressing a hot soldering iron on the key until the molten shellac reaches the edges of the key (easily observed) seems to work well. It also heat forms the pad to seal nicely with any minor irregularities in the chanter seating. Anthony --- On Sat, 15/1/11, Francis Wood wrote: From: Francis Wood Subject: [NSP] Re: Shellac To: "Paul Scott" Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 15 January, 2011, 12:39 Paul, this largely depends on what the pipe-maker has used in the first place. Shellac would be an appropriate material for antique pipes, fulfilling two functions, both as an adhesive and a gap-filler. In this case the material would be solid shellac rather than in solution which will obviously change in volume through evaporation. Most NSPs on this planet are made by David Burleigh, his total being well in excess of 3000 sets. His preferred adhesive is UHU and that's what I would recommend if you own one of those. Francis On 15 Jan 2011, at 11:56, Paul Scott wrote: > After having fixed a leaky tuning bead fitting I have to replace the brass ferrule and end stopper. Am I correct that shellac is the best solution? I know that there are plenty of other adhesives but would Shellac in alcohol be the stuff I am looking for? It us advertised as sanding sealer and says on the label that it is pure shellac and alcohol. They are lignum drones. > > Paul Scott > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3380 - Release Date: 01/14/11
[NSP] Re: Shellac
I certainly still use shellac - and I'm pretty sure other pipemakers do. It has the advantage of being easily removable. Heating the ferrule quite gently will melt the shellac and allow the ferrule to be taken off if any future repair is needed. Old shellac can be cleaned off with methylated spirit (denatured alcohol?) as can any that gets where you don't want it when you are using it. I also use it for sticking key-pads on - I'm very traditional - where it's best to use the thicker and stickier bits from the sides of the jar, where some of the spirit has evaporated. Painting it on and then lighting it to burn away the spirit also makes it stickier, and does a faster job of securing the ferrule - but sometimes it's then too sticky to push the ferrule over. You may find that a bit of sewing thread wrapped round the wood first is useful if the ferrule is too loose a fit. Buying sanding sealer may mean you have to get a big tin - far more than you need for a few ferrules. I buy it in little jars or bottles as "French Polish" - which I suspect may be thicker (i.e. less alcohol in the mix) than sanding sealer, and one jar lasts a very long time. "Button polish", or genuine shellac knotting (knot-sealer for use prior to painting) is the same stuff, though some stuff sold as knotting is made with synthetic resins. Beware of stuff called "Amateur French Polish" - I got some once and it was far too thin, and didn't work well enough as glue. Philip - Original Message - From: "Paul Scott" To: Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 11:56 AM Subject: [NSP] Shellac After having fixed a leaky tuning bead fitting I have to replace the brass ferrule and end stopper. Am I correct that shellac is the best solution? I know that there are plenty of other adhesives but would Shellac in alcohol be the stuff I am looking for? It us advertised as sanding sealer and says on the label that it is pure shellac and alcohol. They are lignum drones. Paul Scott To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Still off topic: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
Many thanks to those who responded to my request, on and off-list. I've been given the link to this excellent resource: http://www.shapenote.net/index.htm which has very many hymns, including the one I was wanting, though you have to download a free plug-in to be able to view the music and to hear it in a very weird-sounding midi simulation. Reid said; It is an interesting and joyful exercise to be a part of a sacred harp singing. The videos do little to capture the >energy of the actual engagement. It is the music of the participation of everybody and not just for the >musicians in the crowd. Well the videos are pretty amazing, so to take part must really be something! On Jan 11, 2011, at 6:44 AM, Dru Brooke-Taylor wrote: If you can follow this link, you'll hear them singing the sol fa for a hymn called New Jerusalem first, and then the hymn itself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwUdlSHktmk Interesting. The mic. was obviously right next to a man singing the alto line VERY loudly! Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
I'm afraid I can't help here, but I have a related query. Can anyone explain the significance, if any, of the shapes? c It was a system devised supposedly to help people with no musical training to read the tunes and sing at sight. The shapes represent sol-fa syllables, and the original four-shape system seems in some ways closer to the old European medieval/renaissance hexachord system than to the modern "movable Do" system (not much used in music education now, but brought to popular knowledge in the song from The Sound of Music) Read all about in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_note But I guess you knew that Chris. If your question is why those particular shapes - I have no idea. When I led a group in singing some of those hymns - people who didn't read music much but were used to seeing normal notes, the shapes just confused them and complicated things, so I prepared versions in conventional notation, and they learned the parts by ear the same as the other carols we were doing. I think maybe more experienced music readers could ignore the shapes more easily, whereas to use the shapes as they were intended you have to have been trained in that system and nothing else. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
Thank you for your replies, Reid and Dru. I've known about Sacred Harp and shape note music for a long time, and heard some of the tunes on recordings - but without the sheer visceral passionate conviction of how it really should be done - though thanks to YouTube we can now hear (and see) it properly, and I'm quite bowled over by it. It's church music - but not as we know it (at least in England!) The reason for my request is that I'm currently sometimes leading a small church singing group and trying to enthuse them into some "Sacred Harp" style singing. We successfully did "Star in the East" in our carol service this Christmas, and I'm trying to collect more good ones. If you follow this link to a YouTube recording of a Sacred Harp singing, you'll see why I'm keen to get the music for Green Street! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUG-EPQqE2Q though of course I know Diadem well as the usual tune for "All Hail". Reid - I think it's the "primitive" Sacred Harp style harmony which is so powerful, as well as the tunes. Does the version in your Baptist hymnbook have that? I like the old English West Gallery hymns too - and also Gaelic Psalm singing, which I've heard in a Free Church on the Isle of Lewis. That can be like slow Sacred Harp tunes in its spine-tingling minor-key sound, but very much the opposite of the SH rhythmic drive. Philip - Original Message - From: "Dru Brooke-Taylor" To: "Dartmouth NPS" Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 3:15 PM Subject: [NSP] Off-topic request for Hymnbook It's possible the tune might exist somewhere under a different name. Although what's probably the most usual tune to this hymn (Diadem) has a lot of repeats, the core is Common Metre. So whatever Green Street is, it may appear somewhere else as the tune to a different hymn with a different tune name. Having said that, a quick check in Oremus, the CCEL hymnary and nethymnal draws a blank for that title. Dru To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Off-topic request for Hymnbook
This is way off-topic for NSP's, but given the wide musical interests of many list members, I thought I'd give it a try - I'm interested in getting a copy of The Sacred Harp hymnbook - or possibly other shapenote books. I know the 1860 edition of Sacred Harp is available online, in the Michegan State University digital collections, and I also know I could order a copy of the current edition direct from the publishers in the USA, but does anyone know if I can buy a copy here in the UK? Specifically, I'd like to find the music for Sacred Harp no.198 "Green Street" to the words "All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name" - ideally this week! That tune is not in the online edition (or if it is, I can't find it there) I'm sure there must be someone reading this list who knows this repertoire well (and for anyone who doesn't, check it out on YouTube - it's amazing) - if so, and if you can send me a scan of it, please contact me off list and I'd be very grateful. Thanks, Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Cymbal
Does this sound familiar to anyone else who knows more about this field of expertise? Yes. The symphony - more or less as you describe it, was a mediaeval version of the hurdy-gurdy. One of the best illustrations - of the big two-man version - is carvrd over the doorway of Santiago de Compostela cathedral. No time to write more just now - I'll post links and references later if anyone is interested, and unless someone else puts it all up here first! Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Bag cloth
Does this still work if the skin is covered with tattoos? Philip - Original Message - From: "Barry Say" To: "NSP group" Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 10:53 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: Bag cloth Does anyone remember a thread from the distant past when a now well-respected piper suggested playing in one's skin was a good way of discovering bellows leaks? Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Joe Huttons pipes?
Correction - it was only five drones. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Joe Huttons pipes?
Others will no doubt reply with much more information, but what little I know may be of interest. Julia will have all the historical information and can correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can remember, Joe's ivory and silver pipes were made by Errington Thompson, a very good amateur maker, sometime around 1880. He was a professional man - architect or doctor I think. In the early nineteen-eighties, Denis Nesbitt, a distinguished professional cellist living at the time in North London bought an ivory and silver seventeen-key chanter in a Sotheby's sale (Graham Wells will confirm if I remember this correctly). This chanter was by John Baty of Wark-on-Tyne who had worked with Errington-Thompson on making pipes, and the chanter was identical to the one in Joe's set. The chanter needed a certain amount of restoration - nothing much more than cleaning and key re-padding, plus fitting a reed. Denis then commissioned me to make a set of six ivory and silver drones, stocks, bag, blowpipe etc to go with the chanter and turn it into a full set. The obvious thing was to copy Joe's set as closely as possible, which involved visiting Joe, photographing and measuring the drones, and of course I still have the photo's and drawings. With all due modesty I think I can say I produced a very beautiful set of pipes. When Denis died, the set was bought by one of the London-based pipers, and the last I heard was still playing well. If the owner reads this, he can reveal himself if he wishes! Philip - Original Message - From: "Peter Morgan" To: Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 3:36 PM Subject: [NSP] Joe Huttons pipes? Does anyone know what happened to Joe Hutton's Ivory pipes? Iv heard the name Errington mentioned, any info on the Errington connection would be much appreciated. Peter. __ Get a free e-mail account with Hotmail. Sign-up now. -- References Visible links Hidden links: 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/L9890-4395TMP.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2833 - Release Date: 04/24/10 19:31:00
[NSP] Re: Transposing
Anthony wrote As Stewart Hardy remarks when asked to play such material at weddings, "yes, I could play that for you but you might be very disappointed with the result"! I can certainly agree with that sentiment! I was once asked to play "You'll never walk alone" - on Highland pipes, at a 40th birthday party held in an ex-servicemen's club, and I did manage an approximation of it (bits transposed up or down as necessary) accompanied by one of those ancient analogue electronic organs you get in those sort of places, plus the disk-jockey crooning into his mike. It was a surprise for the Scotland-loving (but not Scottish!) and Liverpool-supporting birthday-boy organised by his wife. I have to admit it sounded unbelievably awful, but the guests and the birthday-boy all loved it, I was well paid and I had several drinks pressed on me before I escaped into the night. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: pipe cases
Thanks to all who have responded to my question, on- and off-list. The suggestions, and the pipes-carrying solutions actually used by people here range from Kingham, whose website is worth a look just for the gallery of exotic instruments, but whose prices may be a little steep even for the most up-market set of pipes (£200 just for a basic bow case) - to a plastic bag from Sainsbury's. I'm exploring a few ideas, but haven't found the solution yet, so any more info and ideas for suppliers of lightweight, weather-proof, and preferably rigid cases of the right size and at the right price will still be welcome. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] pipe cases
Not a controversial discussion point, or anything interesting about the music, just a question to pipers and other pipe-makers - where do you get your cases, and what sort of case do you prefer? Before the set I've just finished I'd not a made a full set for some time, having mainly done just chanters, and before that I'd had several cases in stock, and now I find that the people I used to get cases from don't seem to be in business any more. Graham Spencer of "Savage and Hoy" used to do them for me, and I believe a couple of other pipe-makers. However, although he still has a webpage up, there's no reply to emails and the telephone numbers I have don't work. Does anyone have any information and/or opinions and help in sourcing good cases for NSP? Preferably within UK of course. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: NSP duet with other instruments
I have a smallish fiddle with a neck very similar to what is seen on "baroque" instruments. I have beenold >by a luthier friend, however, that it probably doesn't even predate 1900. I don't think makers and players have ever been all that conscientious about fitting in with the history >books ;-) I believe "country" amateur fiddle makers would sometimes borrow the squire's violin and copy it. And maybe the squire didn't play, but his father or grandfather did so he let the local farmer copy the old violin lying around up at the Hall. This would be one explanation of a persistance of old designs of instrument, especially among players of traditional music, church band musicians etc. On the subject of pitch, Tim, at the beginning of the 20th century it was usual for pitch to be higher than we use now. It was generally low in the 18th century and rose during the 19th century. Historical pitch is a huge subject exhaustively researched and written up in what is now the standard book on the subject by oboist Bruce Haynes "A history of performing pitch; the story of A". Before Haynes' work, understanding what was going on with pitch standards, transposition etc. especially in 16th century music was such a confusing can of worms for many musicians interested in the period that a biblical quote from Proverbs was often appropriate "He that toucheth pitch shall be defiled therewith". BTW, with all due respect to those concerned, when doing a comment on this list please don't just click "reply all", otherwise we can get multiple copies coming in. The dartmouth address is all that's needed in the "To" line for us all to get it. And disable the function on the email sending program which automatically requests a reply from the recipient. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] NSP duet with other instruments
Margaret's comment: When I'm playing duets with Andy's nsp, I always tune down. For me, I've spent a long time trying to find the right fiddle and strings so it doesn't sound like a kipper-box (or I hope it doesn't) when tuned lower. made me think, what about baroque violinists? Specialist baroque orchestras and soloists play at A=415 or a semitone lower than modern standard pitch and very occasionally even lower. This is getting on for low enough to play with standard-pitch Northumbrian pipes. Proper baroque violins have the neck set at a flatter angle than ordinary modern violins/fiddles (neck angle was increased in the 19th cent. among other things to enable higher string tension - louder tone). 18th century classical technique had a lot more in common with the playing styles of traditional music than modern classical technique does e.g. bow-hold, sometimes playing with fiddle held lower, using first position and open strings more etc. - and generally it was less high-tension than modern violin playing. This doesn't mean it lacks life, and good baroque violinists certainly don't sound as if they're playing on a kipper-box strung with knicker elastic. Would using specialist baroque-violin gut strings on a standard fiddle make for better results at the lower pitch? Just some thoughts from a non-string player, so excuse any ignorance shown! Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] NSP duet with other instruments
Margaret's comment: When I'm playing duets with Andy's nsp, I always tune down. For me, I've spent a long time trying to find the right fiddle and strings so it doesn't sound like a kipper-box (or I hope it doesn't) when tuned lower. made me think, what about baroque violinists? Specialist baroque orchestras and soloists play at A=415 or a semitone lower than modern standard pitch and very occasionally even lower. This is getting on for low enough to play with standard-pitch Northumbrian pipes. Proper baroque violins have the neck set at a flatter angle than ordinary modern violins/fiddles (neck angle was increased in the 19th cent. among other things to enable higher string tension - louder tone). 18th century classical technique had a lot more in common with the playing styles of traditional music than modern classical technique does e.g. bow-hold, sometimes playing with fiddle held lower, using first position and open strings more etc. - and generally it was less high-tension than modern violin playing. This doesn't mean it lacks life, and good baroque violinists certainly don't sound as if they're playing on a kipper-box strung with knicker elastic. Would using specialist baroque-violin gut strings on a standard fiddle make for better results at the lower pitch? Just some thoughts from a non-string player, so excuse any ignorance shown! Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Key Matters. Not pipes, but of musical interest
I heard that programme too - I think the first of the series, I've not heard any others - and it was interesting, but incomplete. He talked about the supposed intrinsic qualities of D minor as used by several classical composers, and in some classic rock music, and tried to get to an answer for the question - is there really some special quality about each key? e.g. is D minor as used by Beethoven, Bruckner, Haydn etc. more "universally" tragic, solemn & serious than e.g. G minor, and would the D minor symphonies have the same emotional effect if e.g. transposed up to E flat minor. BUT he never mentioned the question of equal vs. unequal temperament, and he never mentioned the fact that pitch has changed over the centuries so that what we play as D minor now would have been closer to our C sharp minor in Haydn & Beethovens's time and to our E flat minor by the end of the 19th century. In the 18th century and earlier you often got different pitch standard in different countries. This history of course explains why our "G" pipes, designed in the late 18th century and not changed much since, play at what we now call F or nearer F sharp. Logically, with equal temperament, all keys should sound the same - composers in earlier times often exploited the effect of unequal temperament, which made keys sound very different from each other. Nevertheless, there is a different feel - is it to do with where keys lie in the range of the voices and/or instruments? Interesting. With NSP, of G major would sound more natural, because we don't tune them to equal temperament, and there's the difference of how many keys (metal ones that is) you have to use to play. Philip - Original Message - From: "Gibbons, John" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 4:35 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Key Matters. Not pipes, but of musical interest Well spotted. It's odd maybe that Gmaj on NSP has a similar feel to Gmaj on a flute, (comfortable, in some sense the native key of the instrument) but acoustically nearer to Fmaj. How much do these associations depend on the context? -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of tim rolls BT Sent: 03 February 2010 16:20 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Key Matters. Not pipes, but of musical interest I'm not sure how many people outside the UK will be able to access this, as it''s a BBC thing and I know there can be problems, but there's an interesting series of 1/4 hr programmes on the radio this week called Key Matters. As links are a problem too I'll type it, go to bbc.co.uk/programmes/b009yzy3. Or just look for Key Matters on the Radio 4 section. Tim -- References Visible links Hidden links: 1. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b009yzy3 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2664 - Release Date: 02/02/10 19:35:00
[NSP] Pipemaking thread from NPS group
Interesting, Bob. On the contrary, I've always found that Northumbrian pipemakers (well, the ones I talked to anyway - I can maybe think of a couple of exceptions!) were very open with information. I have always said that this is in stark contrast to the old secretive and macho competitive tradition which at least at one time was very prevalent in the GHB world (may be different in some parts of that scene now, I don't know). Colin Ross, in particular, was always completely free and open with all help and advice, and very generous with his time. At one time he also used to teach an evening class in pipemaking. I have always tried to be true to this spirit myself, and when pipe-fettling on the Rothbury course, I'll willingly bore anybody with descriptions of my pipemaking techniques, and frequently do! Philip - Original Message - From: "Bob Salter" To: Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 5:05 PM Subject: [NSP] Pipemaking thread from NPS group I have been an amateur pipemaker for most of my adult life(quite a long time now). My problem has always, without exception, been lack of good information. Pipemakers are, a LITTLE understandably, a secretive bunch. I started out with the cocks and bryan book and the wilbert garvin book. Anyone I asked advice from was suddenly too busy to be able to chat. I have given up and gone back to this hobby a great many times. Only now, a great number of years later, can I comfortably go out and make the wooden parts I need well. Keymaking is still a lost art to me although Im working on that. The arrival of a nice old myford lathe in my workshop I can turn the metal parts I need as well as the wood. There will be no giving this up now whether anyone is prepared to help me now or not. I dont mean this to be about the nsp in particular, its about pipemakers in general. They wish to protect their income I suppose. Some sort of information should be recorded for posterity and to encourage more amateurs to have a go. Mike Nelsons site is very good but is sadly incomplete. Its a fun and rewarding hobby which will stay with me for the rest of my life Bob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2656 - Release Date: 01/29/10 19:35:00
[NSP] Pipemaking thread from NPS group
This thread, "borrowing long drills" was started on the Pipers' Society discussion group by Barry Say, who asked if anyone remembered the Society having long drills to lend out. There were a couple of interesting replies about the tradition of amateur pipe-making, and I wrote one about making drills. Francis then suggested it should go on the Dartmouth List, as being of more general interest, so here it is. Scroll down to the bottom to see the posts in original order. Philip - Original Message - From: "Philip Gruar" To: "NPS Discussion" Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 12:26 PM Subject: [NPS-Discussion] Borrowing long drills Hi all contributors to this thread. (actually just Barry and Francis, who will already know all this, but I'm still sending it to encourage potential amateur makers with the information that you don't need expensive drills to make pipes) Long drills. There is no doubt that modern "hi-tech" methods will produce very fast and very accurate results - after significant investment in expensive tools. For drilling long holes there are drills with compressed-air chip clearance - but there is also the home-made approach. Get some lengths of silver steel in the required diameters for chanter & drones, and file or grind about half an inch at one end down to the diameter, so the end view is now a half-circle or 'D'. Then grind the end to a slight angle both vertically and horizontally to form cutting edge and clearance (easier to show in a diagram than to explain in words, but very easy to do). If you want to do more than a few holes, it is sensible to harden the end by heating to red-hot and quenching. This is now a 'D-bit'. It's old technology, but as long as the hole is started dead central with a normal drill (only deep enough to hold the D-bit in place) and then the D-bit is then fed in straight and constantly withdrawn to clear the chips it works very well. Silver steel in standard lengths (used to be 13 inches, probably 325 or 330 mm now?) is available from engineers' suppliers. For a smooth finish, it is best to drill undersize by 0.5mm - or less if possible if you can use both imperial and metric sizes - and then ream to final size with another piece of silver steel filed and honed to a long tapered diagonal slope at one end. For example, drill chanter blanks with a 4mm D-bit, and ream with 11/64" which is 4.3mm. Once again, the home-made reamer is easier to draw than describe. This also needs frequent withdrawing to clear the chips, but not nearly as much as the D-bit. With luck, and a delicate touch, the swarf from the reaming will all come out on the reamer as you withdraw it, but sometimes it can compress in the bore, and then the lathe needs to be stopped and the plug pushed out from the opposite end of the hole with the blunt end of a smaller drill. Otherwise, the plug of swarf can make ridges in the bore. However, with care, an accurate and mirror-smooth bore can be made in a surprisingly short time. Amateur makers and lathes - yes, I agree that it may well be an endangered art. Maybe very much to do with the demise of old-style "woodwork and metalwork" in schools, and not much, if any availability of school CDT rooms for evening classes. I'm sure it's no accident that at least some of the amateur pipe-makers named were CDT teachers. The upsurge in availablity of small lathes, though, has surely been for the amateur wood-turning market. Normal woodturning skill, with gouges and skew chisels etc or "softwood turning" as it used to be called to distinguish it from the ancient trade of hardwood and ivory turning, is not really needed for pipemaking. Like other wind-instrument making, pipemaking is more akin to engineering in hardwood; even the hand-turning side of it is like the old hardwood & ivory-turners skills - using small form-tools etc. Then there's the silver-smithing side for key-making. The model engineers - typically men in garden sheds making beautifully accurate working models of steam locomotives - actually have far more in common with pipe-makers than do wood turners producing bowls. Apart from what I learned from Colin, much of my pipe-making knowledge came from study of model engineering books, ornamental turning books (Holzapffel et al.) and historical woodwind-making techniques. Philip - Original Message - From: "Barry Say" To: "NPS Discussion" Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [NPS-Discussion] Borrowing long drills Hi Francis, I follow what you are saying but this memory goes back a long way and probably predates Colin Ross and David Burleigh making pipes on a professional basis. There was a time when piping was kept alive by makers with craft skills making a few sets in their shed (Tom Clough for instance). Those fami
[NSP] Re: bag shape
I've found this thread fascinating, as I have also experienced strain on the wrists - strain generally in fact - when playing a set where the bag neck is too short, and consequently have started to use bags (from Jackie Boyce) with long necks when making my pipes. This keeps the chanter well forward, and leads to a much more relaxed playing position. However, I'm aware that there can be problems with the neck kinking and restricting the airflow if it is too long and narrow. John's post about Helmholtz resonators seems to suggest that a long narrow neck would cause more (or at least different) resonance problems than a bag where the neck opens out broadly from the narrowest point at the stock, "broadening smoothly into the main cavity" as he says. If a narrow long neck makes MORE problems, then obviously we makers should avoid that shape - if the gradually broadening shape makes DIFFERENT resonance, then how different? Are the resonating frequencies going to be higher or lower; more or less likely to coincide with chanter notes? I'm afraid my maths isn't up to the calculation, and anyway - on looking at the Wikipaedia article, I don't see anything about a cavity with pressurised air inside, where there is a constant flow (i.e. from bellows inlet through to chanter), let alone flexible resonators like pipe bags. No doubt the science has been done, and it would be interesting to have some ideas, even though there must be so many variables that it will be extremely difficult to come up anything better than vague generalistions. On the historical bag-shape question, the tear-drop shape of early bagpipes certainly seems more suited to mouth-blown pipes, with the bag held well up and in front of the body. Incidentally, I wonder if this shape is a natural development from using an animal's bladder, stomach, or whatever rather than making the bag from sewn leather? The swan-neck shape going into the chanter would also make for ease of playing and no kinking of the neck (see resonance discussion!). Adapted to the musette, and other early bellows blown pipes e.g. illustrated by Praetorius there was the need for a long flexible tube from the bellows. However, I would guess that both bag and bag-cover are much more difficult and time-consuming to make than the simple folded-over shape. Turning bags inside-out is surely only possible if the leather is soft, and the early bags seem to be mostly made from quite thin sheep or goat-skin. I wonder if the modern style of NSP bag - including the excessively stiff leather sometimes used - is an influence from the Highland pipe makers? What are the bags of the early sets in the Morpeth museum like? I examined them all myself years ago and recall a variety of small, dried-up bags and possibly early 20th-century replacements, but can't remember details just now. Generally speaking though, I think most early small-pipes, and also Irish pipes and Scottish lowland/border pipes which I have examined tend to have small, squarish bags, shorter front-to-back and slightly deeper top to bottom than what we use now. I don't recall the tear-drop shape used in any late 18th/19th century British pipes. However, several Reid sets I have seen had the most beautifully sewn and turned (inside-out) bellows outlet tube. Now that's another whole thread to become obsessed with! Philip - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:44 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: bag shape I always understood the point of the open-cell foam in the neck is to remove the neck resonance problem referred to earlier. The frequency of this resonance depends critically on the shape - if you model the bag as a big cavity with a narrow tubular neck,like a bottle, the formula for a Helmholtz resonator applies - see wikipedia for this. The formula will be quantitatively off as the shape doesn't really fit the 'bottle' model well, the neck broadening smoothly into the main cavity. But the order of magnitude should be fairly good. If this frequency falls in the range of the chanter, the chanter notes near this pitch will couple strongly to it and the pitch will be well away from what you would get with the same chanter in a different bag. Killing the bag/neck resonance means the chanter pitches will be truer. As air can flow easily through the foam at low frequencies but not at higher, the rapid oscillation of the bag/neck resonance is damped out, without badly affecting the supply of air to the chanter. I dread to think what clagging the open-cell foam with seasoning would do to the airflow, though... John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2650 - Release Date:
[NSP] Re: musette
Hi Francis The musette seems fairly out of tune. By 5.45 the pitch is rapidly losing altitude, finally crashing at 6.30. I didn't listen that far! As I said, all those Hotteterre pieces tend to sound the same, and yes, "hard driven" is just the phrase for it - which is another reason I didn't stick it out all the way to 5.45, let alone 6.30. A more delicate touch on musette and harpsichord, plus a bass viol to balance the bass line and it would have been so much better. I listened to a couple of clips of the Loibner recording and have to say I prefer the Palladians for sheer verve and fun. Loibner and co. sound very refined which although probably what the original players might have aimed for, does lose a lot of the rustic joie-de-vivre. Without that, one might as well have a "straight" baroque rendering of the original Vivaldi - or even a non-straight rendering, as so brilliantly done by Red Priest. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: musette
Thanks for those links, The sound of musette with harpsichord, also on the same youtube "page" is just a wonderful noise! - though it really needs the bass viol too. However, I do find with musette music that a little goes a long way, and all those Hotteterre tunes sound the same after a bit! The Palladian Ensemble have recorded the Vivaldi/Chedeville Four Seasons, on a CD called Les Saisons Amusantes - haven't checked to see if it's still available - with Jean-Pierre Rasle on musette and Nigel Eaton, hurdy-gurdy. Far better than the once very popular Nigel Kennedy version ;-) Philip - Original Message - From: "Paul Gretton" To: "'Francis Wood'" Cc: "'NSP group'" <> Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 10:05 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: musette Actually, that's what I meant to link to! Here's the direct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OVYA-DJ_og Cheeers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 05 December 2009 10:44 To: Paul Gretton Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: musette Yes, hugely interesting. Thanks Paul! Of greatest interest perhaps is the lecture-demonstration on this site by Jean Pierre van Hees, one of the best of the very few expert players. A fairly scary example of chanter dangling (ivory and silver items) and the waving around of that set of exposed bourdon double reeds made me fairly nervous. Among other items, he plays passages from Chédeville's adaptation for musette of Vivaldi's Four Seasons. A very good find. Francis On 5 Dec 2009, at 08:57, Paul Gretton wrote: This should be of interest: [1]http://www.youtube.com/user/pipensack#p/a/f/1/2OVYA-DJ_og Cheers, Paul Gretton -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/user/pipensack#p/a/f/1/2OVYA-DJ_og To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.95/2546 - Release Date: 12/05/09 08:13:00
[NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file
Right Paul. You say exactly what I was just going to post myself. West Gallery period (broadly 18th-early 19th cent.) Church musicians, too, usually read from dots and collected the tunes in MS notebooks. They were usually "respectable working-class" men. Philip - Original Message - From: "Paul Gretton" To: Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 6:25 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file It just occurred to me that I ought to have added: To get an idea of the culture that fostered musical literacy even among very "ordinary" people, just read D.H. Lawrence, specifically Sons and Lovers. Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] D set keys (was Looking for players..)
Dick wrote My D set has a high C, and if pipemakers are interested in my opinion, I don't think D sets should be made without a high C. It's just too useful, and allows much more concert pitch playing. Probably too obvious to mention, but I guess we are to assume this means "virtual high C", which on a D set actually sounds concert-pitch G. As I pipe-maker, I take the advice on board. It seems very sensible, there is easily room for it on a D chanter, and I'll always be interested in Dick's opinion (flattery is never out of place, and this is sincere anyway :-)) Which side is the key on, Dick? and where should the key go if all D chanters are to have a high C as standard? The usual solution with a standard-pitch "F" set is to put a high C on the left, paired with the A in place of the seldom-used high A#/B flat, but on a D chanter that little-used B flat becomes a useful F natural, while on the right side the useful "g#" of a standard set turns into d# - maybe not so useful if playing at concert pitch, so perhaps a high C could go there instead? And what if there are already two keys on each side? A triple slot on the left is what I used for John Clifford's chanter, but there may be better solutions - any input, Colin and other makers? Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Northumbria Pipe Course 11-16 October - Places available
Well said "colin" (Hill, of course) I have been reading this list (both lists) over the past month with a growing sense of detatchment and loss of interest. I wonder if I can really be bothered to open any new message, and very likely read yet more griping and point-scoring, or whether just to hit the delete button, and send NPS and NSP alike to join all the other spam. We have had the endless "what is proper piping?" debate yet again (have the Taliban got an internet discussion list about true Islam, I wonder? If so it must be very similar), continuing point-scoring about the presidency, about the society "rules" or lack of them, pipe-makers and pipe-making books and what the society has/hasn't/should/shouldn't have done about them, and now this latest extraordinary outburst. The suggested distinction between NPS discussion and NSP (Dartmouth) list isn't really being observed, often because the subject matter applies to both. Personally, I don't bother to look closely at the acronym to see what list a posting is meant for, I still read them all - and I'm sure most of us who have subscribed to both do the same. I used to follow the discussions with interest, and often contribute to them, but the level of debate recently (with a few honourable exceptions) has sunk so low I'm tempted to unsubscribe from both lists. Letting my Society subsciption lapse sometimes seems like a good idea too. Please can we have a Summer recess, or a moratorium or something, and all come back refreshed and nicer people, ready to discuss piping and its music tolerantly and positively? Can we also drop the (failed?) experiment of the NPS discussion list. Some of us ordinary members really don't care any more about the Society's internal battles. Just fight it out among yourselves and let us know the result by old-fashioned snail-mail newsletter when all the blood has been cleaned up. Philip - Original Message - From: "colin" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 2:38 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Northumbria Pipe Course 11-16 October - Places available I'm, glad someone else aid it first. I wasn't aware that this particular list was only for NPS events and news. I thought it was a general list for anyone interested in any aspect of the pipes. So, if a course is being run and ISN'T held by the NPS we can't read it/post it etc? This puerile twaddle has got to stop before we all leave the list and, the way it's going, the Society too. Please put personal feeling aside and talk pipes and piping. If non-society events can't be discussed, what's the point of us non-Northeasteners bothering to belong to the list. I certainly can't get to Newcastle for an event (too far, too expensive, too ill to travel that distance). OK, if them's the rules How about starting a NEW list where we can discuss ANYTHING to do with piping then? I would agree, however, that this topic would not be permitted in the discussion list (which is for members only). I fail to see how a general, public list (not linked to the NPS as such) can disallow private courses, tutoring, pipe sales etc. I know that certain society members consider themselves a bit of a clique. Most of us don't. We love the pipes (whether we play or not) and enjoy talking about them. I would be most interested to read about, say, KT doing a concert here. Apoplectic fits from many members I suppose. Very sad. This list used to be very open (and I've been here for a long time as well) and honest. Now it's a point-scoring forum. I no longer look forward to reading the mails as I know what's coming. Sorry but I'm really getting fed up with reading the snide remarks these days (plus most is lost on me as I don't know the people concerned). Bah, Humbug... Colin Hill No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.51/2297 - Release Date: 08/11/09 18:27:00 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: question about number of keys
But if you do get one, I would recommend getting it on the opposite side of the chanter from the >B and the D - it's hard to do a run over three consecutive keys! I know this is contrary to the normal practice of some highly respected makers (whom I have no >wish to criticise), but I've never understood the rational of Csharp on the same side as D or >dsharp on same side as E. I think it depends on whether you want to play fast (scale) runs or fast arpeggio/broken chord patterns. The next question is where to put the low A if you have one - on the back with the low B, and sacrifice the low C natural (or put that on the side instead of a D#) - use a triple slot on the back, or have the low A coming up over the top of the left-hand paired D#/E. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: question about number of keys
Chris said: As for low Dsharp, I might use it more (for grace notes) if it was on the opposite side of the >chanter from the E (idem Csharp if it was on the opposite side from the D). Some makers use >this configuration, which I gather has been much discussed in the past. So depending on your maker, you might want neither of these. BTW, my chanter is beautiful and excellent. I just would have ordered it to different >specifications if I had known then what I know now. Chris, almost anything is possible, up to a point. It would not be beyond the pipe-maker's art to alter an existing chanter so the keys were the other way round - quite an interesting challenge in fact! The redundant holes could be filled - almost invisibly but not quite, if the player didn't mind still just about seeing where they were - or else the bottom section could be cut off and a new one spliced in with the holes in different places. You'd have to pay for a bit of new key-making, but some of the old ones would be re-used, so it wouldn't be too bad. I have made chanters with both configurations of low C#/D# - and I imagine the other makers have too. I know Colin has made many different arrangements of the low keys (Colin?) but of course we always keep the "classical" seven in the same places, so that a player used to just the basic seven keys should be able to pick up a multi-keyed chanter and not notice the difference, except for the minimum necessary extra weight. The first multi-key extended chanters I made had the C# on the left, paired with E. One slight disadvantage of this is that the C# key is long, and hinged well above its half-way point. Not really a problem, though. D# was with the low D - which I think is what Reid and Baty did when the chanter was first extended, and David Burleigh followed in that tradition. After discussing it with other pipe-makers and asking advice from better players than me, I have now changed to putting the C# on the right, with the D. It's more "elegant" to have more equal-length keys paired together, and on the whole, I think players just get used to what they have. But experienced players also differ in what they prefer, and I believe there are good arguments to support either arrangement, some tunes being easier one way and other tunes the other way. So with an experienced player, I would always ask what they want, and am quite prepared to make either. From a maker's point of view - we usually try to persuade our customers away from the top B flat, since it's awkward to make, though of course we'll do it if the player really wants it. The lower B flat is not a problem, though unlike most of the other extra keys, it can't be added later. If the player thinks he/she may want a low B flat later, the protruding bump has to be left on the chanter ready for it. Don't know if this helps Matthieu - probably not! Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Calling Matthieu Bopp
I've been trying to get in touch with Matthieu for about two weeks. No reply to any of the emails sent to the two addresses I have. Are you out there Matthieu?? Does anybody else have a contact address? Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] contacting Bruce Higginbotham
Does anybody have an up-to-date email address for Dr Bruce Higginbotham? I only have a yahoo address which I used nearly five years ago, and which may be out of date, or hardly ever acessed. If anybody can help, please email me off-list. Thanks, Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: re notes v. ear
Dave S wrote: No one has so far mention the fact that classical musicians usually have an ally waving a stick and hands giving them the colour, speeds and breathing life into the piece they are playing -- namely his interpretation of what the COMPOSER wished to convey from the dots, with all its' written dynamics - sadly unavailable on most bagpipes - so stop trying to put down one side or the other, we have, do and will continue to have two separate methodologies-- they both have a valid raison d'etre both supply a much needed service and occasionally one or the other crosses over and makes a splash You only get a conductor with orchestras. Classical musicians also play solo, and in duets, trios, quartets etc. etc. and they work together without following one person's interpretation - even some small orchestras who e.g. specialise in baroque music, don't have a conductor, rely just on a leader maybe playing harpsichord or violin, but mainly on everyone's understanding of the style. Also, a lot of music doesn't have much, or anything at all, in the way of dynamics, or written phrasing etc. This also depends on the players' being thoroughly immersed in the style of the music they are playing, so when reading the "dots" it comes out right. I guess that's the key to the whole debate. No-one can play traditional music just from the dots alone, with no experience of hearing the style, (or styles, of course) and really getting into it and feeling it. The same applies to jazz and baroque music, especially French-style baroque, just to give two examples. I'm certainly not trying to "put down" one side or the other, Dave, and I'm sure no-one else is. All I'm trying to say is that it should be possible to play traditional music really well while still using the written notes as a "basis for negotiation" and necessary help to the memory. But of course you need to have listened to it a lot first - and naturally listen while you are reading too! I'm looking forward to Dick's experiment - I THINK I know what you're doing, Dick, but will probably get a shock when you tell us! Looking at Dick's website, and listening to his playing - there's an example of what the cross-over between classical and "folk" can achieve. Another of my favourite musicians, Alastair Fraser, has recorded similar things to Dick, with elaborately "composed" interpretations and development of the Scottish Highland fiddle tradition. I was at a workshop led by him once, where he was illustrating the fiddler's way of improvising and continuing endlessly with rhythmic dance support - very much like Anthony and Matt have been describing. That's enough theorising - I must get back to finishing someone's chanter. (You know who you are!) I need to play a bit more too! cheers, Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: re notes v. ear
Can I just say, with particular reference to Richard's last post, that I am in no way claiming any superiority for the classically-trained position. Reading my post again, it looks a bit as if I am. I enormously admire all those who play mostly by ear. I think on the whole they are better musicians than me - but I just wanted to defend those of us who play best from the written music against the charge of alway and inevitably playing without any life and expression. Communication with listeners is always best without the music-stand in the way, of course. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] re notes v. ear
I think of music as music: whether it is folk, classical or whatever. As I've never heard the B.B.C. Symphony Orchestra criticized for 'flat' playing because they are playing from music, I think that criticism is rather a reflection on the skill of the players, rather than a criticism of the medium being used. I think Peter makes just the point here that I was going to make, when Anthony (I think) first started the debate. Also, Dick made very good points. The "flatness" and mechanical playing problems which many people perceive with "playing from dots" is only inevitable for people who struggle with the reading, and those who think that the dots represent *exactly* how music should be played. Only a computer plays music exactly as written - good musicians will always lengthen/shorten certain notes, pull the rhythm around subtly and put life & expression into the music as they read it. I'm sure everybody with a so-called "classical" music training here (and jazz or whatever) - i.e. anyone for whom the purely mechanical act of reading written music is completely second nature, does the reading without consciously thinking about doing it. Playing the music sensitively, with the right style or expression or whatever, is what you do with it "on top of" the reading so to speak - well or less well depending on your musicianship and understanding of the music. People who do jazz or early music maybe depart from the written notes more than "main-stream" classical players do - but all competent musicians would surely reject idea that reading inevitably leads to "flatness". Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Alternative/extra NPS discussion list
Presumably there's no real reason why non-members shouldn't sign up if they are interested enough in society matters. Or as Julia says, they can join. Though unlike some societies, I don't think think NPS doings are particularly secret are they? Anyway, nothing's secret once you put it in an email - an I.T. specialist I know once said you may as well use a postcard. Philip - Original Message - From: "Dave S" To: Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 4:11 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Alternative/extra NPS discussion list That's a bugger, now us out here won't get to see them over there doin it to the rest over wherever TIC Dave To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: smallpipes
Richard wrote J.S. Bach's father was the town piper. Or should that be "toon piper"? It should, of course, be Stadtpfeiffer. Town Bandsman is probably the best translation. Usual English equivalent was Waits. London, York and other major cities had them - but in Germany they always took that kind of thing very seriously. The musicians played shawms, cornetts, trombones etc. - loud instruments for playing over the town from the top of towers http://www.answers.com/topic/turmmusik-music - but also quieter instruments (lutes, violins, viols, flutes, recorders) for indoor functions, mayor's banquets, trade guild dinners etc. - and in church too. Some of them could probably turn their hands to bagpipes as well, when needed. Here's a convenient picture ( from a CD which came up when I googled stadtpfeiffer - usual commercial disclaimers apply) www.amazon.co.uk/Stadtpfeiffer-Renaissance-Germany-Paul-Hofhaimer/dp/B56OE8 The Bachs had been at it for so many generations that in his home town "a Bach" was another word for "musician". When J.S. was a lad he would have been taught by his father to play most instruments - but not I think the bagpipes. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] President
Elizabeth sent this last night but it didn't appear - sent with the wrong name maybe? I didn't think the list worked like that. Anyway, let's try again as if it's from me. Do the NPS rules state that there can only be one President? Another music society to which I belong has on several occasions wanted to mark exceptional contributions by outgoing chairpersons so we now have 2 presidents (and also a vice president). Each one now does only the amount of work they have time or energy for and the membership is happy. If this could be allowed then both Colin and Joyce Quin could be appointed and the present difficulties resolved. Elizabeth Gruar - Original Message - From: "Chris Harris" To: Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:21 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Colin Ross I'm not sure it was an opportunity missed. If I understand the situation correctly (and maybe I don't), it wasn't possible, according to the rules. And Julia is absolutely right, that the rules can't just be set aside because they are inconvenient at a particular point. Having said that, I fully agree that Colin should be honoured in whatever way may be possible. If it is still possible for him to be President at this stage, within the rules, I'd be all for it. I do feel a bit sorry for the lady who's already been asked, though. Chris Harris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Colin Ross
Brilliant John! Puts us all in our place. (If we select the wrong person, the Americans could come here to help bring about Regime Change) Only joking Philip - Original Message - From: "Dally, John" To: "what.me" ; Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:24 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: Colin Ross I agree completely with Adrian. I too will not accept any cups, medals, trophies or sleep-over offers from some "politition". I urge all other trophy hunters, um, I mean Society members to do the same. For many years now I have NOT been collecting cups, medals and trophies, but I had no idea that my lack of acquisitiveness was a bold political statement. If I ever win anything again, I'll give it to Colin Ross who is much more deserving and whose many photos in the Newsletter are a constant reminder that I live down here on earth. To Julia Say: I wish to know if by paying my dues (which are nearly equal to the cost of a second rate chanter reed) I have interfered some how with British politics. We Americans are loath to interfere with other governments, as you all know, so I shall happily accept a refund of my dues at this time if the funds will be used in anyway to further the personal political ambitions in piping or otherwise of any one individual, elected or otherwise appointed. Respectfully, John To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Colin Ross
Just to add to the tributes, it was Colin who taught me most of what I know of pipe-making. In sharp contrast to the culture of "trade secrets", and mutual suspicion between makers and players which, at least at one time, seemed to exist in the world of Highland piping - Colin was always completely open and enormously generous with his time and knowledge. I put a posting up here saying that Joyce Quin seemed a good choice - but that was before I knew Colin was willing. Philip - Original Message - From: "Anthony Robb" To: "Dartmouth NPS" <> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 5:57 PM Subject: [NSP] Colin Ross I'm well aware some of you are fairly new to piping and may not be au fait with some of Colin's achievements. Here is a brief list from my perspective: * It was Colin Ross who made his own pipes and took them throughout the world touring with the High Level Ranters from the mid 60s onwards * It was Colin Ross who further promoted the pipes on "Alang the Coaly Tyne" and "Northumberland Forever" in the late 60s early70s * It was Colin Ross who turned down the opportunity of a solo album in the mid 70s and brought together the musicians that would become the "Cut & Dry Band" to make two important pipes-based albums * It was Colin Ross who, through interviews on national radio and several appearances on TV made every folkie in the UK aware of the pipes in the 70s and conjured up enough interest nationally and internationally to make it possible for a budding young maker (David Burleigh) to give up being a taxidermist at the Hancock Museum and turn full time pipes maker. * It was Colin Ross who provided the vision and driving force to quadruple the size of the Society in an increasingly competitive world when it's never been easier to access pipes music and information from other sources * It is Colin Ross who has been a stalwart pillar and inspiration to members of this Society consistently and conscientiously for 45 years. Hoping this helps people to realise that despite my personal differences with Colin, his achievements dwarf those of the rest of us and quite probably those of the rest of the Society's officers combined. As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.36/2125 - Release Date: 05/20/09 18:03:00
[NSP] Re: Colin Ross
I would whole-heartedly support any move to appoint Colin as President, for "Lifetime Achievement" reasons, but ONLY if he himself were entirely happy with it. He certainly doesn't need the sort of back-biting criticism which now seems all too prevalent. Maybe a "public figure" outside the mainstream would be less at risk from all that. This begs the question of what does the President actually DO, and do we really need one? Is there some other way Colin's achievement can be recognised? Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: New NPS president
I think a (rather guarded?) Hear!, Hear! to Helen for that comment. Although I was the first to make a "puerile comment" after Jula's initial announcement, I was also just about to comment that we shouldn't allow the present climate of indiscriminate distrust and bad feeling for ALL members of parliament (irrespective of whether any individual actually deserves it) to cloud our judgement here. Joyce Quinn actually seems an excellent choice. If she behaves as anything more than just a silent figurehead, she'll be bound to get criticism from some people whatever she says and does, and at least MP's are used to taking some flak! Philip I don't know the details of the selection process but I understand from contacts in the NE that finding a suitable figurehead for the NPS - someone who has not publicly plumped for one side or the other of the Great Divide* and is keen enough on the pipes to be prepared to take on the role - was very difficult. From the little I know about her, Joyce Quin seems a wholly appropriate choice: a high-profile public figure who has a longstanding association with the North-East and plays the pipes herself. I think she should be applauded for taking on what is already starting to look like a rather thankless task, and the committee should be applauded for managing to bring her on board - apart from the secretary, of course, who has made it rather obvious that she didn't support the appointment. Helen Fish *Great Divide: in the piping world, not Westminster. If you're on this list and don't know what I'm talking about, go and find some brain cells. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.329 / Virus Database: 270.12.33/2120 - Release Date: 05/18/09 06:28:00
[NSP] Re: NPS information
Shouldn't she be vetted by the anti-choyting police first? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] shakes with closed
I have never heard them played closed, and they sound dreadful, open. Simpler graces sound better closed to my ear, but I thought these were beyond the power of human >fingers... It may be beyond ordinary mortals, but presumably no more difficult than the other fast variations. Articulated i.e. tongued (or separately bowed) trills and other rapid ornamentation are usually assumed in 16th and early 17th century music - divisions and highly florid embelishments of "standard" tunes, then on to e.g. Frescobaldi. Listen to a recording by a very good cornett player (Bruce Dickey comes to mind) and you can hear the effect of definitely separated, but still smooth, extremely rapid "trills" usually with some sort of turn at the end. On the recorder (or whistle??) you can do it by tonguing diddle-iddle-iddle etc. (one well-known recorder player used to teach his American students to say "Little Italy" very rapidly). The art is to combine the tongue with the fingers - not difficult with practice. So separated but not excessively "staccato" shakes can sound very good and completely different from a "normal" trill, though I'm not convinced that's what Fenwick meant. There seems to have been a rather awkward attempt to combine pipes technique with the 18th and early 19th century conventions of Classical music ornamentation in a number of early tutors. I think Geoghan tries to do something similar with the Pastoral pipes, and of course the musette tunes are full of trills, "ports de voix", "tierces coullees" (excuse lack of accents) and all the other elaborately classified ornamentation of French Baroque music. Does it sit easily with NSP technique though? I think not. Philip - Original Message - From: "Gibbons, John" To: "'Ian Lawther'" ; <> Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 3:10 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: nps John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ian Lawther Sent: 28 April 2009 14:43 To: Dave Shaw Cc: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: nps Whilst Fenwickdescribes gracenotes he does not say that one should step outside the closed fingering rule he has already set out in order to play them. Many Northumbrian pipers grace within the closed fingeringeven those shakes sound better closed! Ian Dave Shaw wrote: Adrian wishes to use the Fenwick tutor as his bible to prove that only plain closed fingering is admissible. Between the music reading and tunes section of this book, however, there is written the following: (see) http://www.daveshaw.co.uk/Fenwick/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.6/2084 - Release Date: 04/28/09 06:15:00
[NSP] Re: nps & tradition
A study of how the various, now tiny, denominations of extreme protestant churches in the Western Isles have split and re-split over the last century is quite instructive here (and I'm sure there are similar examples in American religious history). All because tiny groups of essentially well-meaning people think that the organisation they belong to is not adhering to the true faith. - Original Message - From: "Ian & Carol Bartlett (home account)" To: <> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 7:36 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: nps & tradition - Original Message - Subject: [NSP] tradition etc Shiela wrote:- " If classical music had remained "in the tradition" Mozart would have been shot, Beethoven would never have dared to experiment and to shock his contemporaries, as he most certainly did, and we would all still be playing like the troubadors. .If you want to stick at being 100% traditional take all of the keys off the pipes." Well said Sheila; and I might add the pipes would still be pitched in all manner of tunings around F and we'd be unable to play the music in social groups. As for a 'breakaway' group from the NPS I think this would achieve little in the promotion of the instrument and the music which I believe is the overall objective as opposed to promoting a particular style. I have seen professional organisations split in similar ways, in the main because people fail to work harmoniously with each other as opposed to any significant difference in direction. I have also observed that over the years those people come to realise that the division of resources achieved very little and they end up merging again or in some cases both factions fade into obscurity and irrelevance. In either case, what an utter waste of talent and effort! I have never met Chris Ormston nor Adrian Schofield nor Kathryn Tickell or Pauline Kato or many other deities of the piping world. Nor have I had the opportunity to see them play. They all have a place in the piping fraternity as do the styles that they follow and promote and we all have things to learn from each of them. Dare I say it, they probably have learned positive things from each other, as we all do. The really important thing is that all styles continue to have their champions and those champions continue to flourish and attract new followers. This recurring sniping at individuals and 'organisations' does not get us anywhere. Nor does "the traditional way is the only way". Let's just accept that there are several styles of Northumbrian Piping out there and each as valid as the other. It is worth noting that the phrase from Fenwick's tutor is "As a general direction we may observe that the small-pipes are played upon the method called 'Close Fingering' which allows of only one finger being lifted at a time." That says --- "As a general direction..." not "As the only direction". It allows for diversification does it not? Thus to take the 'My way or no way' approach ignores the lattitude that "As a general direction" allows. "Tradition moves, tradition progresses and is not a pile of stones." . Martin Carthy Fractionating an already small and specialised group will be unlikely to achieve any sustainable benefits and will certainly confuse newcomers to NSPs "Which organisation should I join?" "Should I join both??" "Do I really have to pay two subscriptions?" Competition has a lot to answer for!!! Cheers Ian Bartlett Auckland - New Zealand -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.4/2080 - Release Date: 04/25/09 08:29:00
[NSP] a completely unrelated subject
By the way, thank you to everyone who responded to my request for email addresses. As will be obvious, I am now back on line. I have quite a lot of correspondence to catch up on after the computer crash and the Easter holiday, as well as pipes to make, so maybe I shouldn't waste time reading and sounding off to this list! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Not again!
Anthony, Thank-you, Thank-you, Thank-you! Sense, decency and mature wisdom have been reasserted at last. It was great to have your contributions when you joined this list, and to see you driven off it by rudely expressed puritanism would have been tragic. I have avoided making any comment so far, because as a very inadequate player myself I don't consider myself qualified (I try to do too much else and don't practice the way I know I should), however I have been very disturbed to see the embittered sneering in some of the posts on this subject - both the latest thread and the last time this subject was discussed. Of course we know that the Northumbrian pipes are played with a closed-fingered technique. Of course we all know that "notes coming out like peas" is an essential part of the NSP sound, and of course the purest Clough style should be preserved by those few players capable of dedicating their lives to achieving it - while also playing musically (just as the Free Presbyterian Church stays true to the Westminster Confession of Faith against all blandishments of the modern world?). Perhaps pure Clough style should be required in at least one top-level competition, as long as this is clearly stated in the rules - BUT for goodness sake let's not allow a clique at the top of the NSP establishment to insist that the pipes must be played in no other way. I am increasingly reminded of the solemn old men in tweed jackets and kilts sitting with their books, judging piobaireachd competitions. Although there may be a strong case to say this has been necessary to preserve the tradition, there is perhaps an equally strong case arguing that they have completely distorted one of the great art-forms of European music! Anthony, your mention of Joe Hutton reminds me what a wonderfully supportive, gentle teacher he was. His welcome as everyone arrived at the Rothbury weekend course was one of the things we most sadly miss. He encouraged everyone to play to the best of their ability - and to want to improve that ability. He remained open, tolerant and creative to the end of his life. Other people I fear are starting to sound rather old and crabbed. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] email rescue - and a call to Matthieu
Hi Folks, We have had the long-feared disaster with our hard-drive, which seems to come to everybody sooner or later. Fortunately, I recently got a big external drive and backed up all our documents - but I didn't get my head round finding the email data folders in time, so all our stored emails sent and received, plus the address book have gone. Please could anybody I have been corresponding with - plus any friends in the piping world who have reason to believe I had their email address - be kind enough to email me off-list with their addresses, plus maybe a copy of anything I have sent them which may be relevant to outstanding orders etc. One of the worst things to lose is the accumulated wisdom of this mailing list! In particular - I owe Matthieu Bopp a reply to the email he sent me just before the crash Matthieu, if you are out there please get in touch again! Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] correction to terminology
Sorry - I gave a wrong translation! Should have said quaver (eighth-note) Minims = Half-note, Crotchet = Quarter-note, Quaver=Eighth-note. But you knew that anyway. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: J Allen (and Rants)
Irrespective of the origin and age of the tune, surely - as anyone who has done any research into family history knows - the spelling of names in the 18th and early 19th century was subject to almost infinite variation (and how many spellings are there for Shakespeare??) so - when James, Jem, Jemy, Jemmy, Jamie, Jim, Jimmy, Jimmie, Allen, Allan, Alan gave his name orally to someone who then wrote it down, the clerk may have (aurally?) heard the name correctly and used any number of spellings to write it down. I suppose the question hangs on what spelling Allen himself used when (and if) he wrote it. A couple of generations before him, his family certainly wouldn't have been literate, and would neither know nor care about the spelling. The way it is spelt in the published "Life" is probably just a snapshot of one time in the name's life. More relevant may be how Allen's family said it - what accent, and did they use a more or less "Scottish" pronunciation? Does it matter, or is it a question of rival nationalisms either side the Border? Just a thought from Philip (often mispelled Phillip - preferably not Phil, and certainly not Pip if you don't mind) Gruar - whose not very distant ancestor, a tenant farmer on the Highland Line at the time J. Allen was around, was spelt at different times Gruar, Gruer, Grewar and Growar. Now - Rants. I can theorise endlessly about the precise relative length of paired quavers in baroque music, but I'm not a particularly good piper, and don't live in the centre of "The Tradition". For the benefit of those reading this who live completely outside it, could experts please confirm if I'm right that in "Rant" playing the quavers are very *slightly* uneven, but not as "dotted" as in a hornpipe, and giving a "heavier" feel than in a reel, because in a reel you feel two minim (half-note) beats in a bar - each beat made of four equal quavers (quarter-notes). In Rants and Hornpipes it's definitely four crotchet (quarter note) beats to the bar, each beat normally consisting of two uneven quavers, but in a hornpipe the first quaver is strongly accented and lengthened, and the second one is very light and short. The rant gives much more equal weight to the two quavers. Is this easier to understand than tomato soup and gobstoppers, or am I talking through my hat? Oh, and welcome to the list Anthony, it's great to have your contributions. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: malcom's final solution
Dear Malcolm, Yes of course - I read your post more carefully after sending mine, and see that you were in fact referring to an old chanter rather than something one of our current pipemakers had done. Sorry to have reacted over-hastily! I agree that some research and collating of measurements may be interesting and useful, though of course finger hole positioning is, and always has been with all wind instruments, a compromise between theoretical calculated positions and positions where the player's fingers can move most easily, and then undercut and adjusted for accurate tuning - making compromises and decisions to accomodate the balance between pure and tempered intevals. I do drill my fingerholes in the same very carefully measured places on all my chanters, though these have been refined and slightly changed over the years. However, the undercutting and fine tuning is always subtly different. I'm afraid I don't think chanter tuning can be reduced to an exact science, precisely the same on every instrument! Philip - Original Message - From: "Malcolm Sargeant" To: "Philip Gruar" Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: malcom's final solution Dear Philip thank you for your mail. the half inch tone hole sizes came from a Fred Picknell chanter about 100 year old and been in constant use. This chanter belongs to Tommy Breckons and is in use today. I have had it here at Scunthorpe to "fettle" and believe me it does play. The 1/2" is a "guesstimate" and of course not to be taken as scientifically as this survey could be. Thank you and please try to be positive, no one is going to come to any harm over this. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: malcom's final solution
Richard Evans wrote: Crumhorn I think, but I don't have any plans or whatever. Pretty sure it's parallel small bore, tone holes similar to NSP. Although the crumhorn bore is parallel and small, it's not as small as NSP, and the tone holes are a lot smaller. This is why the crumhorn can produce a chromatic scale with cross-fingering like a recorder and the NSP doesn't. Boehm's redesign of the flute in the 19th century, from wooden with small holes to metal with a hole for every semitone aimed to make most of the finger holes as near as possible to the bore size - hence the pads which cover every hole, which would otherwise be to large for the fingers to cover. The Saxophone has some very big holes near the bottom, which I guess are pretty much bore size, but of course that's a conical bore. Malcolm's accusation that some pipe-makers elongate holes to half-an-inch (! - too big for a finger) I'm afraid rather prevents us from taking the rest of his post very seriously. There are certainly some very old chanters about that have acquired some very hacked about holes in their long lives, as different players have inexpertly tried to tune them to suit possibly badly made and set reeds - I've filled and redrilled some of them - but that's a very different matter from the maker not knowing where to drill the hole in the first place and elongating it until it's in tune. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Am I tone deaf?
Thanks for that link, Rob - it's much more exciting than Associated Board music exam test on a piano. I got the pitch difference down to 1.5Hz - not quite as good as I flattered myself I could do, but I guess it's a reasonable qualification for a pipe-maker, music teacher and someone who plays early music. But, oh dear, I only scored 75% on the "tone-deaf" test, telling whether phrases were the same or different - no wonder I can never remember pipe-tunes, and nearly always have to play from the dots! Philip - Original Message - From: To: <> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:42 AM Subject: [NSP] Am I tone deaf? .. Or rather "How good is my differentiation of tones?" A friend pointed this site out to me the other day: http://tonometric.com/adaptivepitch/ It measures how you differentiate between two tones and whether you can hear which is higher and lower. If you have ever described yourself as tone deaf, have a go .. then really concentrate and have another go .. The test is adaptive so the better you are the harder it gets. Once you're into the realm if 2 or 3 Hz, that means being able to tell the difference betweeen different tempered scales. There are a bunch of other related things on rhythm and musical memory but ths one struck me as being particularly relevent to piper's. If you lack confidence in tuning or don't know where to start, it's a very simple way of understanding (and improving) what you can hear. cheers Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Prints of pipers
from Paul a German violinist who had had an accident that ruined his right hand; he re-taught himself to play "left-handed". And of course the Beatles presented a well balanced symetrical image to the world - John and the left-handed Paul either side of the mike. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Reel of Tullochgorum
Chris wrote: More puzzling is the painting (Dutch 17th C) of a bellowspiper in Carbisdale Castle / Yoof Hostel, which is normal except that the piper has his right hand on the top end of the chanter and left on the bottom IIRR. chirs Before standardised music lessons and printed tutors, wind instruments were quite often played right hand at the top, even in the world of art music. Where there is an off-set finger hole or a key for the bottom little finger, as on the recorder, two holes were drilled so the player could do it either way round and fill the redundant hole with wax, or the key was made with a "swallow-tail" touch. More recently, it seems to have been quite a fashion for Irish flute players to hold the flute "the wrong way round" too - shows they are proper traditional musicians unaffected by classical training; of course you can do that with a wooden open-holed flute but not with an orchestral-style one. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Concert pitch V traditional pitch
If the pipes were a true whole tone below concert pitch (concert F) it would be A=392 (IIRC). A semitone below (F#) is A=415 - the pitch standard usually adopted by modern Baroque orchestras and performing groups. A=405 is another "standard" for some baroque players. Unfortunately "F-and-a-bit" traditional pitch seems to vary somewhat between ten and twenty cents sharp of concert F, so it will be about A=400-405 give or take a few cycles/second. Can anyone with better maths than me give a completely accurate answer? Though normal variation of bag-pressure will always make a few cycles' difference. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 10:24 AM Subject: [NSP] Concert pitch V traditional pitch Can someone please tell me if with concert pitch A=440Hz what is the frequency of A with traditional pitch? If it is that simple! Regards Graham Graham Wright -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: York Waits concert
On 2 Nov 2008, Chris Ormston wrote: And, of equal relevance to NSP, The Pogues are at Newcastle Carling Academy on 11th December! I think at least one member of the York Waits plays the NSP, whereas I doubt if the same could be said of The Pogues. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: More code?
In order to avoid in-crowd allusions, and in order to make everything clearly explained, I think that John should have explained that his reference here was to the Bible (the sacred book of the Christian religion - which believes that . Oh I guess you can find that elsewhere on the net) The context is Saint Paul, First Letter to the Corinthians "Now we see as through a glass, darkly, then we shall see face to face", meaning(look it up somewhere) (incidentally, I am in tongue-in-cheek mode again here - apologies. No offence meant!) Philip Original Message - From: "Gibbons, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 10:13 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: More code? So neither content-free nor context-free Now we see through a glass, (of Guinness) darkly... John To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Mistakes in public perfomance, Miles Davis etc
Barry wrote I trust there is a tongue in cheek element here. Well spotted, Barry! (-; Among the reasons I have chosen to attempt a detached style of playing is that I feel that it allows more control of the rhythm. There is now sense and moderation in the discussion. We have achieved a result! As John, Barry again and finally Chris have emphasised, it's all to do with expressing the music, and having the technique to do it justice. The Miles Davis references completely reinforce this - I don't know much about jazz, but I think one of Davis's greatest skills was total control over articulation so that he could express the music with whatever subtlety he wanted - the trumpet was a totally flexible voice. To bring my own early-music speciality to bear - this ties in completely with the Renaissance wind instrumentalist's ideal of imitating the human voice. They believed that as God made the human voice, it was the perfect instrument, and the duty of all other instruments was to imititate vocal expressiveness as far as possible. Jazz playing preserves this idea into the modern age far more than classical technique does. The treatises on playing "divisions" (very like NSP variation sets) which survive from the turn of the 16th/17th century - e.g. Dalla Casa's book published Venice 1584, intended primarily for cornetto, which he played in St Mark's, but also relevant for recorder (and whistle or even trumpet?) - start with pages of articulation exercises on different syllables le-re-le-re, de-re-le-re, ter-re-te-re, te-re-le-re, te-che-te-che... etc. The most successful technique when playing this music is not to actually slur anything, but try to get a variety of separately articulated notes ranging from ALMOST slurred to quite staccato. Listen to a recording of a really good cornetto player, like Bruce Dickey, to hear the effect - very like Miles Davis's trumpet in fact. Moving forward to the Baroque period, where actual slurring is often required; in say Vivaldi or a Handel recorder or flute sonata there will be pages of semiquaver runs, but with no written slurs - at that time the composers hardly ever put them in. If played all equally tongued, there is no shape to the phrasing and it sounds like machine-gun fire. The player has to decide which notes to slur, and which to tongue gently or combine in "tu-ru" or "diddle-diddle" type tonguings, and which to separate quite distinctly. Slurring two or more notes together always gives the effect of a slight accent on the first of the group. Nearly every note can be slightly different in length from its neighbours - and so this sort of music is given life and interest, which it doesn't have when just seen as an endless stream of notes. With pipes, there's no tongue (or bow) to do all this, hence gracing on all open-ended pipes and detatched fingering on closed-end pipes, or those like the musette which have closed fingering and the illusion of separated notes. I don't claim to be much of a Northumbrian piper - no Barry, it won't be worth spending money on petrol to hear me play the pipes, but I don't mind you hearing me play the recorder :-) but when I play the pipes, I try to use the detached fingering as far as I can to get the differing lengths of notes needed to point the rhythm and try to express the tunes. Players like Chris do it, and I can't - but it's far from being a universally staccato effect. Sometimes in the Great Debate, I was afraid that people were demanding EVERYTHING had to be very staccato, or it wasn't proper Northumbrian piping. Sorry about the long rambling! Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Newcastleton festival - 5 July
Thanks for the reminder, Julia. Unfortunately we can't go that weekend, but I'd second your encouragement for more pipers to go there. We went for the first (and I'm afraid only) time a few years ago - a beautiful place, lovely weather (not like today just here!!) and a really good atmosphere, good music and friendly feel. It's a small enough town to feel as if the music festival is the only thing happening there - in fact there was also a tongue-in-cheek Border Common Riding - on bikes, which added to the fun. Plenty of Highland pipers, fiddles and accordions around, so they definitely need more Northumbrian and Border pipers. Philip - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 11:34 AM Subject: [NSP] Newcastleton festival - 5 July The piping competitions at this event need your support. Unless there is a better turnout than last year, they will probably be discontinued. The program for nsp / BP players goes: 13.30 Workshop for nsp in F pitch - Nick Leeming 14.30 Comps: (judge - Nick) nsp Novice: Two tunes, one slow. one faster. Intermed: Two tunes of contrasting rhythms Open: Three tunes, including key change. One slow air + 2 of march, jig, reel, hornpipe, rant etc - one tune to have variations Emphasis on Northumbrian repertoire in all classes Border pipe novice: Two tunes, one slow, one quicker Border Open: Three tunes, one slow, one to have variations. Emphasis on Border repertoire and style. SSP acceptable but pipes must be bellows blown Followed by session for nsp in F, until everyone gets bored or wanders off for tea/ alcoholic beverage (All in Buccleuch centre unless they've changed it - ask atr the office) Festival website with directions: www.newcastleton.com Please pass on to anyone you think might be interested. See you there. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: (Top quality) NSP at auction
The bellows certainly look like David's - on looking again, it's very hard to say about the actual pipes, the picture isn't high-res enough. Colin, can you confirm whether these really are your work? Somewhat unusual for eBay - anyone interested in an effectively unplayed new set of NSP (Colin Ross)? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Northumbrian-Small-Pipes_W0QQitemZ220236140539QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item220236140539&; Haven't worked out what the chanter keys are but the seller is answering questions.. From the text I'd hazard a guess at the reserve being 1300 UKP (I have no connection with the auction - caveat emptor as always) Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: (Top quality) NSP at auction
Looking at the picture, I'd say David Burleigh. Somewhat unusual for eBay - anyone interested in an effectively unplayed new set of NSP (Colin Ross)? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Northumbrian-Small-Pipes_W0QQitemZ220236140539QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item220236140539&; Haven't worked out what the chanter keys are but the seller is answering questions.. From the text I'd hazard a guess at the reserve being 1300 UKP (I have no connection with the auction - caveat emptor as always) Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Traditional & Classical etc.
Matt said >(sorry, I don't know him well enough to call him Max) I don't know him either - but he's often called Max (publicly - e.g. on the Radio) and it's easier than writing Maxwell-Davies! Apologies (a) if it looks like name-dropping and (b) if it being disrespectful to Sir Peter Maxwell-Davies (though I don't suppose he's reading this Forum) Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Traditional & Classical etc.
(Getting a bit off-topic now I'm afraid) Hilary's mention of Martyn Bennett (and Ina's reference to Dick Hensold's compositions) seems to have brings us to favourite CD's of interesting developments/departures from the strictly traditional, while still remaining true to the characteristics of the instrument and the traditional forms. Some of my all-time favourite CD's are by Alasdair Fraser, e.g. The Road North, Dawn Dance & Way Out to Hope Street with the band Skye Dance. A lot of the music is quite "classical" in the complex way it is composed and arranged, but also very much in the tradition of Scottish, or rather Highland fiddle. The complexity makes it possible to listen over & over again to these recordings and always hear something new - something I have also liked in things Dick Hensold has done, and which of course applies particularly to the "classical" style of an intellectual composer like Max. Anybody heard Sting's latest recording - his version of John Dowland lute songs? (We've just bought it, to add to all our other Early Music recordings). It's set the fur flying in some purist circles, but has certainly raised the profile of John Dowland's wonderful music, and introduced it to thousands who never thought they liked that sort of thing. He has a brilliant lutenist (true to the tradition, "pure", "authentic" or whatever) but interprets the songs in his own way. Philip (Hilary wrote) > Saying that, there is a track of Martyn Bennett playing without drones (on > the Highland pipes) and playing along with Tommy Smith, the saxophonist, > on > the Tacsi CD, which I love. So that kind of thing has been tried, and > been > made to work (toast!) But at the end of the day, it's the interplay > between > the drones and the chanter that is really where the magic lies. > > > > I also feel that what kind of music you play is a matter of taste, but > believe that what matters the most is being true to the instrument. How > closely that means keeping to 'the tradition' or bending away from it is a > matter of personal choice. Again, Martyn Bennett, who stretched Highland > pipes in directions that some people are still recovering from, will have > attracted folk to the instrument that a traditional approach alone may > not. > There has to be room for all, even if you may not always like it. > > > > Hilary > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[NSP] Re: Preserving the tradition...a non-traditional approach.
Absolutely RIGHT ON to what John, Matt and Ina have just posted. I've got nothing particularly new to say - just thought someone should voice agreement to such obvious truth & common sense! BUT Patrick is also right in his points about Riverdance etc. etc. The fact is, we need BOTH the innovators and the modern serious composers AND the pure tradition maintained by the handful of people who have the interest, technique and commitment to be the tradition bearers. However, IF one was forced to choose only one stream to preserve, I suppose it would have to be the pure tradition, because from that all the interesting innovations will branch off - if the tradition is inspiring enough, which it must be otherwise it would not have survived. Fortunately, we are not forced to choose just one. I liked Max's piece quite a lot - most of it anyway. I also like "Orkney Wedding" in spite of the (slightly) non-traditional Highland piping. In fact, I like the effect better than when Highland Pipes play tunes like "Amazing Grace" or "Flower of Scotland" accompanied by Military Band. Then I followed the link to the video of Chris Ormston playing in Quebec; "Bonny Pit Laddie" etc. Now THAT'S real NSP playing. Wonderful, Chris! but please don't totally rubbish Max and the competence, knowledge or integrity of other ways of using the instrument. Having sais that, of course, maybe it is a necessary part of being a true tradition-bearer that you ARE intolerant of divergence from the tradition? Philip - Original Message - From: "Gibbons, John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Doc Jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 11:36 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: Preserving the tradition...a non-traditional approach. > Today, there are far more NSPers than probably ever before, but if > anyone needs more than one hand to count the good ones, he is either > very generous, or can't tell the difference between fair and excellent > piping. > > I doubt if the number of excellent pipers is greater than it has ever > been. The point of the instrument lies in its distinctive sound, its > distinctive technique and its distinctive repertoire. > > The tradition of playing the instrument is in no danger of extinction; > but the playing of suitable music for it, as well as that music demands, > in an appropriate style, could die out among NSPers in general very > easily if most of them got the idea that you can play anything on them, > or got the idea the drones might get in the way of musical freedom. > > John > > -Original Message- > From: Doc Jones [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 02 November 2006 00:37 > To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [NSP] Preserving the tradition...a non-traditional approach. > > > I've been watching the jazz thread a bit. There seems to be a certain > reluctance to see the NSP being used in venues that are not strictly > traditional. > > I would suggest that the best way to preserve the tradition of NSP is to > have them played in as many venues and types of music as possible. > > More exposure = more new players. > > Take the recent "Riverdance" show that toured in Europe and here in the > USA. A lot of people poo-pooed it because it was not "traditional Irish > music. But I for one was exposed to Uilleann piping for the first time > while watching the show on my VCR. I now own a set of Uillean pipes and > strive to play them in the traditional style. In fact, it is because of > that exposure and my attachment to Uilleann pipes that I took up the > NSP. Now I'm the first to agree that Riverdance is poor substitute for > the real IrTrad music but I wonder how many thousands were touched by > the music and began their journeys into IrTrad music from that point. > > I would love to see someone turn off the drones and play the NSP with > types of music that have nothing to do with Northumberland. I'd love to > have thousands of folks watching and saying "What the heck are those > cute little rascals?" . Invariably they will mostly come home to the > "traditional" tunes and techniques and in the mean time we've picked up > a lot of new players and enthusiasts. > > What a blessing that the violin was "corrupted" to play IrTrad, > bluegrass, blues etc I'm sure the Viol d' Gamba players all turned > up their noses as the "fiddlers" debased their traditions by playing new > styles of music. But then you don't see many Viol d'Gamba players these > days. > > I hope we don't cling so tightly to the tradition that we strangle it > into extinction. :) > > > Cheers, > > Patrick > http://irishflutestore.com/ > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > >
[NSP] Re: peacock pipes
- Original Message - From: "Edmund Spriggs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 5:56 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: peacock pipes > I've asked one or two pipemakers whether a stopped "Dixon Peacock" > chanter could be made, with a slide or a bead so that you could set the > chanter to either a sharp seventh or a natural seventh. Having once made a sliding thumb-hole for a rather unconventional (and long) C chanter (fascinating project but incredibly fiddly and time-consuming, even with the extra space available) I would suggest that as keyless chanters are pretty easy and quick to make, it would be more cost-effective to have two chanters. To add to this festival of Peacockery, my favourite set to play is the little four-key "Peacock's improved" I made for myself after the Dunn set in the museum. Early Music meets Northumbrian Piping. When I first got into NSP's back in the post-hippy, back-to-nature, and knit-your-own-muesli culture of the mid to late 70's, I seem to remember there was a bit of a reaction against what was seen as the over-virtuosic culture of competition playing on 17-key sets etc. etc. and this led to the appearance of what is still one of my all-time favourite piping LP's "Cut and Dry Dolly". featuring Anthony & Carole Robb, Colin et al. all looking young and long-haired. Everything comes round again in the end! Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Pipers' Gathering photos
Matt wrote > > Just had a look - what a relief I didn't go this year - all the blokes are > now > bald, even the ones who weren't bald last year. Is it something in the > water? > Does Halsway have the same effect? We should be told. > It's a well proven fact that the air blowing through the pipes has the effect of sucking the hair down out of the top of the head, and pushing it out through the chin. (Curiously enough, women seem to have a natural immunity) Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Which way should drone reed tongues face?
If the inside of the drone stock has been hollowed out into one large chamber - (like I do, and I think most of the more finicky pipemakers do too) - i.e. the small holes you plug the drones into are not just bored straight through the full length of the stock - then I think it is better to have the tongues facing inwards, into the hollow space. Otherwise, they will vibrate very close up against the wall of the hole (might even touch it and stop altogether with a big bass reed), and I think they sound better if there is more room in front of the tongue. This may be just my imagination - what do others think? Philip - Original Message - From: "Mark Stayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <> Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 1:16 AM Subject: [NSP] Which way should drone reed tongues face? > Is there any reason, acoustic or otherwise, to have the drone reed tongues > face a particular direction when they are in their stock? > > When I remove and replace a drone, I tend to face the reed tongue up, but > I've no particular reason for doing so. Anyone else have a preference, > and why? > > Cheers, > Mark > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[NSP] Re: toddler dance favorites
And in OUR house, when our son was small (he's now 24) track one of the A side of the second Cut and Dry Band LP (Barrington Hornpipe/Glen Aln) was used for "pass the parcel", "musical bumps" etc. etc. and has ever since been known as "David's Party Tune". Philip Gruar > And at number one in the toddler dance favorite list (drum roll please) > the > A side of The High Level Ranters "Four in a Bar" LP !!! They just love it > and dance the whole time. (Now if there was just a Ranters DVD) > > John Liestman > [EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Low E key squeak problems
I would agree with Colin that the trouble is most likely to be caused by a hard reed. A hard reed naturally wants to vibrate at a higher frequency and favours the high harmonics - which of course is also what you want to a certain extent to give a bright tone - but not too much. The problem is not scraping it so much that the squeaks go, but you also lose the brightness. However, a reed which is trying to produce high harmonics is either helped or hindered by various features in the chanter. What is happening when a note squeaks is that the chanter is being induced to produce a harmonic instead of the fundamental note - i.e. the vibrating air column is breaking up into sections. I may be open to correction in my acoustic theory here, and would welcome any input from people who have studied the subject in depth, but the basic situation is that an NSP chanter, being a "closed" tube, overblows at the 12th (2nd harmonic) which means the column breaks into three, and there are certain places on the tube - corresponding to these sections - where the harmonic can be very easily induced by leaking a finger or a key. Because of the overall length of the chanter, the place where any slight leak most easily starts the harmonic is usually around the low G, F# or E key. I have tried to correct squeaks by lengthening the chanter, as well as by inserting a longer plug in the end (effectively shortening it) and the result has often just been to move the "squeaking hole" further down or up - e.g. a chanter squeaking on G, with an extra length joined on the bottom, then starts squeaking on F# instead (My aim in using this technique has been to try and get the theoretical "optimum squeaking point" BETWEEN holes rather than just AT a hole, but it has not been very successful). Another factor is that a small hole seems more capable of inducing a squeak than a large one, acting like the small "speaker key" on a clarinet, or like "pinching" or half-opening the thumb hole on a recorder. The first chanter I ever made, accurately copying an old Robert Reid chanter, and therefore very slender with thin walls and some really big "finger-sinker" holes, is almost impossible to induce a squeak on - even with a hard potentially squeaky reed. All the holes vent the full diameter of the tube and therefore sound the fundamental - just like successively cutting off bits of the chanter length instead of opening holes in the side. By contrast, thicker-walled chanters with small, neat holes squeak very readily when using the same reed. One can correct this tendency to a certain extent by undercutting the hole (downwards so as not to sharpen the pitch). However, once again it will not correct a hole which is determined to squeak and the only cure is to thin the reed and reduce its tendency to produce the harmonics. More random thoughts - another thing which induces the harmonic is a change in the air pressure - easing off the bag-pressure can do it, or suddenly increasing the pressure. Irish pipers overblow by putting down the chanter on their knee, suddenly stopping the air flow and starting it again - and of course NSP's do the same thing BETWEEN EVERY NOTE! Some other possibilities - 1) the key is loose in its slot so that it wobbles sideways and the pad doesn't always seat right on the hole. 2) the end of the key does not seat down absolutely square to the hole, and so one side "touches down" or lifts up slightly before the other. So to sum up - basically hard reed makes a chanter easily produce its natural harmonics, which form when the column of air breaks at certain points only - hence it's just the one key which makes the squeak. The harmonic comes when the chanter is PARTLY vented at or very near to one of those points. So, I've not got all the answers, but some of these ideas may help. Philip Gruar To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
