[nysbirds-l] Pelham Bay Park, Bronx - Razorbill and others 2/6

[Richard Aracil]

Hi All,

Had a great day in the Turtle Cove/Hunter Island section for the park. 
Highlights included a Razorbill seen well east of Twin Island, a flock of 20+ 
purple sandpipers on the rocks off Glen Island, 2 Long-Tailed Ducks and a Great 
Cormorant seen distantly off Twin and a Bald Eagle over the Orchard Beach 
Lagoon.

Good Birding,
Richard Aracil
  
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Bad behavior

[Ardith Bondi]

Brilliant, Isaac. Thank you.

Ardith Bondi

bird photographer

On 2/6/12 7:31 PM, Isaac Grant wrote:

Here is my two cents based off of over 30 years of birding in this
state.  I find this entire discussion absurd and think that everyone has
pretty much missed the real point. I have no clue why people get so up
in arms about flushing owls. Let me preface this by saying that some of
the people that I am about to criticize are people that I bird with
frequently, people that I have known for over 20 years, people that have
been to my home and my wedding. I find it all extremely contradictory
and hypocritical .

The same people that are finger pointing and bad mouthing and video
taping and planning secret groups because a few people get too close to
a bird, have no problem walking through the east pond and fulshing
hundreds if not thousands of migratory shorebirds that are desparately
trying to refuel for their huge migration south. Is is possible to walk
the east pond without flushing loads of birds? Does any one care if they
flush a flock of peeps, dowitchers or yellow legs or even give at a
second thought while they are searching for a Godwit or Stint? They have
no probelm walking through a field in the fall and flushing hordes of
birds in the hopes that a Clay Colored or Lark Sparrow be found amongst
the hordes of Savannah Sparrows and Song Sparrows and more common
species. Can anyone see a sparrow in NY without flushing it first? These
same people have no problem pshing in any number of song birds during
migration. Doesn't that disturb these birds more than an occasional
flush by a photographer or flash? The examples are endless. What birder
has not flushed flock after flock of Dunlin and Sanderling while walking
on the beach at Breezy and Jones Beach looking for one of those Snowy
Owls? What birder has not crashed through median strip at Jones Beach
looking for Crossbills or Sawwhets and not flushed Yellowrumps and
Juncos, etc. What birder has not walked the trail out to Breezy and not
flushed numerous Yellowrupms and Cardinals and blackbirds. What birder
has not walked near a pond and not had every duck swim to the other side
of it? What birder has not flushed loads of Ring-billed and Herring
Gulls on the beach while trying to find a Glaucous or Iceland Gull? What
birder has not walked through central park and not flushed a Hermit
thrush or Ovenbird? I have never gone to Point Lookout and seen the
Harlequin Ducks without them continuously swimming away from me. Maybe
they just don't like me but I think that they are obviously wary of
people and do their best to keep their distance.

The obvious answer to all of my questions is that it is impossible to be
a birder and to not continuously disturb birds. Do any of us really
think that everytime we walk on a beach or thrugh the woods or in a
field that we are not disturbing the birds that are trying to see? I am
not in any way condoning someone who is purposely flushing an owl or
approaching unnecessarily close. But we need to keep in perspective what
it is that all of us (certainly including myself) are doing every time
we enter the field? I do not think that you can randolmly decide what
birds are OK to disturb and which ones are not. That seems to be an
absurd thing to do. All of us, photgraphers and birders alike need to be
aware of our impact on our surroundings and stop pointing the fingers at
others.

And now for what may get me lynched. I think that birders cause
significantly more disturbance than photographers do. Do we all really
think that when 30 people are lined up (even at a reasonable distance)
from a Snowy Owl that you are not "on its mind", that it is not
extremely aware of your presence? Do you think that it feels comfortable
hunting while a crowd is present? I don't. At least most photographers
will make a reasonable effort to slowly approach these birds so that
they can actually not make it fly. That is how you get a good picture
isn't it? These birds are comming to public places and are surrounded by
dogs and loads of people. When they are bothered enough, they will fly.
Is that really a huge deal if a Snowy Owl flies a few hundred yards down
the beach? I really do not think so and I have no clue why so many
people think that. These birds did just fly hundereds of miles south
didn't they? I would argue that the continued presence of a crowd of
birders in a field or a swamp or the beach has a much greater negative
impact on the birds than people may think. I have seen at least 20 Snowy
Owls and I have never seen one actively hunting. Why is that? Probably
because I was there and wether or not I approached it too closely still
did not mean that I was not disturbing the bird. These birds are
choosing to or have been forced to winter in what is unfortunately a
public area. The Breezy owls will have to deal with dogs, people and
loads of 4x4's on the beach. They will do their best to stay away from
the people and when they feel distrubed 

[nysbirds-l] Fwd: [MASSBIRD] Loblolly Cove residents upset

[Jacob Drucker]

Another pressing topic dare I forward this email?

--JD

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Ian Lynch 
> Date: February 6, 2012 9:17:17 PM EST
> To: MassBird 
> Subject: [MASSBIRD] Loblolly Cove residents upset
> Reply-To: Ian Lynch 
> 
> I went to Loblolly Cove in Rockport this morning in search of the Spotted 
> Towhee. I wasn't there long before a neighbor driving by stopped to tell the 
> other birder and me that the residents are getting tired of the birders and 
> their inconsiderate behavior, which includes rutted roads and torn up grass. 
> I asked him specifically how I could act considerately today while there. He 
> half-jokingly suggested leaving.  I thought about the fact that although I 
> could make claims to a public space that my "rights" did not trump his and so 
> I did the considerate thing and left. It is only a tick on a list and our 
> excessive attention may even harm the bird in the long run and certainly is 
> inconveniencing the neighborhood. 
> 
> Ian Lynch
> revianly...@gmail.com
> Brimfield, MA
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 


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Re: [nysbirds-l] Bad behavior

[Michael Zablocky]

Bravo, Isaac! Phil Jeffrey threw me off ebirds for my heretical piece earlier 
today. I'm happy to hear another birder criticize behavior that really needs to 
be addressed. Not to be misunderstood, if hobbyists want to spend insane sums 
of money, absolutely. I endorse capitalism, these sales are great for our 
economy. But I agree with you, Isaac, let's not be high and mighty and condemn 
others in the pursuit of their hobbies. It's extremely hypocritical to bemoan 
the waste of gasoline used by the 4X4s, or snow mobile enthusiasts, or ATV's. I 
still would like to see some numbers on how much gasoline and aircraft fuel is 
burned up by birding enthusiasts. Again, this is a personal choice, and people 
are free to make it. But it's like what Edward Abbey said, that there is a 
certain group who are loving nature to death. The crowds of birders and 
photographers that descend on rarities made me just stop going altogether. It 
ruins the experience of being outdoors, for me at least.

I have seen so much bad, and yes, crazy, behavior in the field that I made some 
personal decisions concerning my birding habits. And they are my decisions. 
Others can make up their own minds. I remember one Fall many years ago at Cape 
May. There must have been more than twenty birders crammed onto a platform that 
really only had room for about five. We were were watching a Common Snipe at 
fairly close range. The bird was clearly terrified. It was backing up against 
the reeds, but they were too dense for it to get through. It couldn't fly 
forward because it was ringed by birders, who by the way, were loud and shoving 
at one another. A short, very rude woman demanded to use my scope, to 'get her 
good look' at this terrified animal. I wasn't able to shorten my scope for her 
because of the crowd, so she spent the next five minutes abusing me about not 
being considerate of short people. A total stranger mind you, complaining about 
my choice, of my personal equipment. I shouldered my scope and pushed through 
the crowd and left in disgust. Unfortunately, scenes like this were not 
uncommon throughout my fifteen years of birding. 

So, last thoughts before I make it two for two and Chris knocks me off this 
list also. People, do a reality check. Birding and bird photography are not our 
vocations. We are not, mostly, naturalists or scientists. I'm always amused how 
quickly people I've known go from buying their first digital camera to billing 
themselves as 'wildlife photographers' on their homemade websites. I really 
believe the internet has made it too easy for a lot of us to immerse ourselves 
in this 'outdoor' fantasy world we create. When we observe birds it's exactly 
the uncertainty principle. Our mere looking at a bird alters its behavior. 
These creatures are far more aware of us than we are of them. We kid ourselves 
into thinking we see them acting naturally. 

Thanks for posting, Isaac. It was a very good read! And please people, stop 
obsessing about the owls. It's weird already. This is New York City, if it gets 
to be to much for them they can always leave. 

To paraphrase George Thouroughgood, "I bird alone!"

Michael Zablocky



 

  
On Feb 6, 2012, at 7:31 PM, Isaac Grant wrote:

> Here is my two cents based off of over 30 years of birding in this state.  I 
> find this entire discussion absurd and think that everyone has pretty much 
> missed the real point.  I have no clue why people get so up in arms about 
> flushing owls. Let me preface this by saying that some of the people that I 
> am about to criticize are people that I bird with frequently, people that I 
> have known for over 20 years, people that have been to my home and my 
> wedding.   I find it all extremely contradictory and hypocritical . 
>  
> The  same people that are finger pointing and bad mouthing and video taping 
> and planning secret groups because a few people get too close to a bird, have 
> no problem walking through the east pond and fulshing hundreds if not 
> thousands of migratory shorebirds that are desparately trying to refuel for 
> their huge migration south.  Is is possible to walk the east pond without 
> flushing loads of birds? Does any one care if they flush a flock of peeps, 
> dowitchers or yellow legs  or even give at a second thought while they are 
> searching for a Godwit or Stint? They have no probelm walking through a field 
> in the fall and flushing hordes of birds in the hopes that a Clay Colored or 
> Lark Sparrow be found amongst the hordes of Savannah Sparrows and Song 
> Sparrows and more common species.  Can anyone see a sparrow in NY without 
> flushing it first? These same people have no problem pshing in any number of 
> song birds during migration.  Doesn't that disturb these birds more than an 
> occasional flush by a photographer or flash?  The examples are endless.  What 
> birder has not flushed flock after flock of Dunlin and Sanderling while 
> walking on the beach at Breezy and 

[nysbirds-l] Syracuse RBA

[Joseph Brin]

RBA
 
*  New York
*  Syracuse
*  February 06, 2012
*  NYSY 02.06.12 
Hotline: Syracuse Rare bird Alert
Dates(s):
January 30, 2012 - February 06, 2012
to report by e-mail: brinjoseph AT yahoo.com
covering upstate NY counties: Cayuga, Montezuma National Wildlife Refuge
and Montezuma Wetlands Complex (MWC) (just outside Cayuga County),
Onondaga, Oswego, Lewis, Jefferson, Oneida, Herkimer,  Madison & Cortland
compiled:February 06 AT 7:30 p.m. (EST)
compiler: Joseph Brin
Onondaga Audubon Homepage: www.onondagaaudubon.org
 
 
#291 -Monday February 06, 2012
 
 
Greetings! This is the Syracuse Area Rare Bird Alert for the week of 
January 30 , 2012
 
Highlights:
---

RED -THROATED LOON
WESTERN GREBE (Extralimital)
TUNDRA SWAN
NORTHERN HARRIER
TURKEY VULTURE
ICELAND GULL
GLAUCOUS GULL
SNOWY OWL
NORTHERN SHRIKE
FISH CROW
BOHEMIAN WAXWING
YELLOW-RUMPED WARBLER
WHITE-WINGED CROSSBILL
COMMON REDPOLL
PINE SISKIN



Montezuma National Wildlife Refuge (MNWR) and Montezuma Wetlands Complex (MWC)


 2/6: NORTHERN HARRIERS were seen at the Visitor’s Center and May’s Point.


Onondaga County


 SNOWY OWLS were reported at Syracuse’s Hancock Airport again this week, 
mostly from the Corregidor Road area but also from Malden Road south of the 
airport. Also being seen was a dark phase ROUGH-LEGGED HAWK.
 1/31: CANVASBACK and RED HEAD ducks were seen in Skaneateles Lake from the 
village.
 2/1: 9 species of waterfowl including GREEN-WINGED TEAL and CANVASBACK 
were seen at the mouth of Nine Mile Creek on Onondaga Lake. 10 FISH CROWS were 
found at the Marina in Liverpool.
 2/2: A NORTHERN HARRIER was seen on Maple Road in the Town of Clay. A 
TURKEY VULTURE and a YELLOW-RUMPED WARBLER were found in the fields east of 60 
Road at Three Rivers WMA north of Baldwinsville.
 2/4: PINE SISKINS were seen on Shakham Road near the Cortland County line.
 2/6: A YELLOW-BELLIED SAPSUCKER and a NORTHERN SHRIKE were seen in the 
fields east of 60 Road in the Three Rivers WMA.


Madison County


 2/1: 7 ICELAND GULLS and 1 GLAUCOUS GULL were seen at the Madison County 
Landfill.
 2/6: A ROUGH-LEGGED HAWK and a NORTHERN SHRIKE were spotted at the 
Chickadee Hill Wildlife Sanctuary in Erieville.


Oswego County


 2/3: 5 WHITE-WINGED CROSSBILLS were found on North Church Road in 
Boylston. 
 2/5: WHITE-WINGED CROSSBILLS were again seen on North Church Road along 
with PINE SISKINS. On Wart Road a NORTHERN SHRIKE wass found. 20 COMMON 
REDPOLLS were found at Selkirk Shores State Park.
 2/6: At Derby Hill a RED-THROATED LOON was seen from the overlook and a 
NORTHERN SHRIKE was spotted south of Rt.104-B near Sage Creek Road.


Extralimital


 A WESTERN GREBE has been seen through the week from Stewart Park at the 
south end of Cayuga Lake near Ithaca.

  
    
End Transcript

--

Joseph Brin
Region 5
Baldwinsville, N.Y.  13027  U.S.A.
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[nysbirds-l] Black Vulture and Short-eared Owls at Shawangunk Grasslands NWR

[Anthony Collerton]

Scanned from Galeville Town park for the evening raptor show (from 4pm to
5:45pm).  Things move around a lot but high counts included 2 Turkey
Vultures, a BLACK VULTURE, 13 Northern Harriers, 2 ROUGH-LEGGED HAWKS, 8
SHORT-EARED OWLS, and 2 Red-tailed Hawks. We also had a COYOTE hunting for
mice and providing great scope views for all.  A really neat spot.

I'm pleased to report that the assembled birders and photographers had a
fine and amiable time just enjoying the birds 

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[nysbirds-l] Bad behavior

[Isaac Grant]

Here is my two cents based off of over 30 years of birding in this state.  I 
find this entire discussion absurd and think that everyone has pretty much 
missed the real point.  I have no clue why people get so up in arms about 
flushing owls. Let me preface this by saying that some of the people that I am 
about to criticize are people that I bird with frequently, people that I have 
known for over 20 years, people that have been to my home and my wedding.   I 
find it all extremely contradictory and hypocritical . 
 
The  same people that are finger pointing and bad mouthing and video taping and 
planning secret groups because a few people get too close to a bird, have no 
problem walking through the east pond and fulshing hundreds if not thousands of 
migratory shorebirds that are desparately trying to refuel for their huge 
migration south.  Is is possible to walk the east pond without flushing loads 
of birds? Does any one care if they flush a flock of peeps, dowitchers or 
yellow legs  or even give at a second thought while they are searching for a 
Godwit or Stint? They have no probelm walking through a field in the fall and 
flushing hordes of birds in the hopes that a Clay Colored or Lark Sparrow be 
found amongst the hordes of Savannah Sparrows and Song Sparrows and more common 
species.  Can anyone see a sparrow in NY without flushing it first? These same 
people have no problem pshing in any number of song birds during migration.  
Doesn't that disturb these birds more than an occasional flush by a 
photographer or flash?  The examples are endless.  What birder has not flushed 
flock after flock of Dunlin and Sanderling while walking on the beach at Breezy 
and Jones Beach looking for one of those Snowy Owls?  What birder has not 
crashed through median strip at Jones Beach looking for Crossbills or Sawwhets 
and not flushed Yellowrumps and Juncos, etc. What birder has not walked the 
trail out to Breezy and not flushed numerous Yellowrupms and Cardinals and 
blackbirds. What birder has not walked near a pond and not had every duck swim 
to the other side of it?  What birder has not flushed loads of Ring-billed and 
Herring Gulls  on the beach while trying to find a Glaucous or Iceland Gull? 
What birder has not walked through central park and not flushed a Hermit thrush 
or Ovenbird?  I have never gone to Point Lookout and seen the Harlequin Ducks 
without them continuously swimming away from me.  Maybe they just don't like me 
but I think that they are obviously wary of people and do their best to keep 
their distance.
 
The obvious answer to all of my questions is that it is impossible to be a 
birder and to not continuously disturb birds.  Do any of us really think that 
everytime we walk on a beach or thrugh the woods or in a field that we are not 
disturbing the birds that are trying to see?  I am not in any way condoning 
someone who is purposely flushing an owl or approaching unnecessarily close.  
But we need to keep in perspective what it is that all of us (certainly 
including myself) are doing every time we enter the field?  I do not think that 
you can randolmly decide what birds are OK to disturb and which ones are not.  
That seems to be an absurd thing to do. All of us, photgraphers and birders 
alike need to be aware of our impact on our surroundings and stop pointing the 
fingers at others.  
 
And now for what may get me lynched.  I think that birders cause significantly 
more disturbance than photographers do.  Do we all really think that when 30 
people are lined up (even at a reasonable distance) from a Snowy Owl that you 
are not "on its mind", that it is not extremely aware of your presence?  Do you 
think that it feels comfortable hunting while a crowd is present?  I don't. At 
least most photographers will make a reasonable effort to slowly approach these 
birds so that they can actually not make it fly.  That is how you get a good 
picture isn't it? These birds are comming to public places and are surrounded 
by dogs and loads of people.  When they are bothered enough, they will fly.  Is 
that really a huge deal if a Snowy Owl flies a few hundred yards down the 
beach?  I really do not think so and I have no clue why so many people think 
that. These birds did just fly hundereds of miles south didn't they?  I would 
argue that the continued presence of a crowd of birders in a field or a swamp 
or the beach has a much greater negative impact on the birds than people may 
think. I have seen at least 20 Snowy Owls and I have never seen one actively 
hunting.  Why is that?  Probably because I was there and wether or not I 
approached it too closely still did not mean that I was not disturbing the 
bird.  These birds are choosing to or have been forced to winter in what is 
unfortunately a public area.  The Breezy owls will have to deal with dogs, 
people and loads of 4x4's on the beach.  They will do their best to stay away 
from the people and when they feel distrubed 

[nysbirds-l] Barrow's Goldeneye (YES) @ Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge Queens County...

[Andrew Baksh]

This afternoon I did a vigil on the West Pond at Jamaica Bay Wildlife
Refuge, in an effort to establish the time that the *Barrow's
Goldeneye*was returning to roost.  After an hour and half of
constantly scanning the
West Pond, I finally picked up the Barrow's Goldeneye around 5:35 p.m.
>From my field notes, the number of Goldeneyes seen on the pond from around
3:30 were 3 (all common) and it was only until around 4:30 p.m. that
additional Goldeneyes began arriving to roost.  Unlike Floyd Bennett, this
time I was able to get some distance digiscope shots and video of the
Barrow's for documentation purposes.

Previous reports from many birders who had the Barrow's in the morning,
indicate that the best window in the AM to see this bird may be from first
light to around 7:30-40 a.m.  Hopefully with a consistent evening pattern,
folks who are trying for the bird have the evening option if the morning is
too early for them.  I will advise that a scope may be necessary to pick
this bird out in low light and at a distance.

Other notables on the West Pond included Northern Pintails and Canvasbacks.
  Additionally, near the north end of the refuge parking lot, there were at
least 3 *American Woodcocks* peenting.  Earlier before my Barrow's vigil, a
peruse of Pumpkin Channel (on the bayside) from the West Pond trail, did
not turn up the *Eared Grebe*.


Andrew Baksh
Queens NY
www.birdingdude.blogspot.com

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RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Will Raup]

 Photographers are clearly muggles, but the birding community has its share of 
deatheaters.

Will Raup

Albany, NY


 Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
From: jacobdruc...@msn.com
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:53:32 -0500
CC: gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com; peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com; 
nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
To: fpimen...@verizon.net



When will Harry Potter fans get involved in this discussion?
Jacob 
On Feb 6, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Felipe Pimentel wrote:Dan,















The problem with your suggestion is
the potential danger of creating a kind of "birding war" that would
not help to solve any problem but may create new ones, including potentially
violent encounters in the field that we must avoid. More productive could be 
the development
of some flexible guidelines by some local groups (like the Audubon society)
about what birders or bird photographers should do and not do in the field.
Codes of ethics are by definition general moral principles. In my humble
opinion the best policy is self-restraint and a good sense of personal
responsibility.  There are issues that will never be
solved. For example, the issue of "disturbing" birds or
approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder being too close to a bird means
50 feet away while for others may be only 30. Massive birding by definition is
a potential disturbance for many birds. When you have 60 bird watchers 
congregated
on the same spot that could create be more disturbance than a single 
photographer
taking pictures of the same bird even at a closer distance. What I am trying to 
say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and
that practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those who
are believers), written in stone.FP 


On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote:
Hey Dan,

  I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals 
exhibiting the poor behavior.  Some people are just ignorant and just need a 
little guidance.  Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example.  You approach 
them, try to considerately educate them.  When they resist and blow you off 
then communicate to others.  Everyone deserves a fair shake.

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Dan 
Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM
To: Gregory Fisher 
Cc: "" , NY BIRDS Cornell 

Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to 
the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, 
try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :)

Good birding!

Dan Furbish
peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com


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[nysbirds-l] ADMIN: Courtesy and Rules

[Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes]

In light of some recent ill-chosen dialogue, I must remind those who choose to 
post messages to this List that it is not okay to single out people or publicly 
lambast them. Please keep the postings more constructive in nature, instead of 
playing the blame game.

The List Rules specifically state "Flaming or Offensive Messages will not be 
tolerated.  This means that offensive or inconsiderate replies or posts to the 
List may result in immediate suspension, and possibly removal, from the List. 
The Listowner only has limited control over what is posted to the List and how 
subscribers are using the List."

Please be courteous when posting!

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Thank you!

Sincerely,
Chris T-H

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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Arie Gilbert]

  
  

All of us should follow sensible rules that serve the welfare of the
wildlife we care about, {and the rules of this list serve are that
you provide your name with your post.}

I know that the vast majority of photographers are not behaving
poorly, but it only takes a few episodes to get a few people
rankled. 
Over reaction is not helpful either

Why you are against a proposal to keep location information
undisclosed, when it appears that you are secreting the very
information you decry for being withheld? Have you reported to this
list the LEOW roost you have been watching for the past 5 years?  

If you feel a sense of discomfort when you see birdwatchers, one can
only wonder why. I almost always carry my camera, and no one has
ever said anything to me about it. 



Arie Gilbert
President: Queens County Bird Club Inc. 
http://www.qcbirdclub.org


On 2/6/2012 4:07 PM, peregrin...@aol.com wrote:

  
  
  
I agree! Do not post owls as photographers like myself will
  probably want to photograph them. The bashing continues and as
  walk with a lens I always feel a sense of discomfort when I
  see birdwatchers. Which is why I learned a long time ago to
  keep my mouth shut about any birds I find.. 
So presently this year I will not disclose the location of
  2 Snowy owls in Ulster County,  4 Saw Whets in Rockland County
  and the 3 large historical roost sites of LEOWs I have been
  watching for 5 years in Orange County..
 
  

  
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Re:[nysbirds-l] Bad behavior

[Peter W. Post]

I usually don't like to become embroiled in these types of conversations for
obvious reasons. However, I would like to make some observations.

(1) In my personal experience some of the worst offenders have been those
ready to condemn others while citing some sort of ethics code or another.
They need to clean up their own act first.

(2) Many birders I encounter in the field know nothing about bird behavior
and how to judge when one is approaching a bird too closely. It's up
experienced birds to educate them.

(3) Be careful on what photos and information you post on the internet. You
could be opening yourself up to a law suit.

Peter Post
NYC



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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Jacob Drucker]

When will Harry Potter fans get involved in this discussion?

Jacob 

On Feb 6, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Felipe Pimentel wrote:

> Dan,
> 
> The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a kind 
> of "birding war" that would not help to solve any problem but may create new 
> ones, including potentially violent encounters in the field that we must 
> avoid. More productive could be the development of some flexible guidelines 
> by some local groups (like the Audubon society) about what birders or bird 
> photographers should do and not do in the field. Codes of ethics are by 
> definition general moral principles. In my humble opinion the best policy is 
> self-restraint and a good sense of personal responsibility. 
>  There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of 
> "disturbing" birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder being 
> too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only 30. 
> Massive birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many birds. When 
> you have 60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that could create be 
> more disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures of the same bird 
> even at a closer distance.
>  What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and that 
> practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those who are 
> believers), written in stone.
> FP 
> 
> 
> On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Hey Dan,
>> 
>>  I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals 
>> exhibiting the poor behavior.  Some people are just ignorant and just need a 
>> little guidance.  Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example.  You 
>> approach them, try to considerately educate them.  When they resist and blow 
>> you off then communicate to others.  Everyone deserves a fair shake.
>> 
>> Greg
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Dan 
>>> Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM
>>> To: Gregory Fisher 
>>> Cc: "" , NY BIRDS Cornell 
>>> 
>>> Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get 
>>> it
>>> 
>>> Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them 
>>> to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their 
>>> vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number 
>>> too :)
>>> 
>>> Good birding!
>>> 
>>> Dan Furbish
>>> peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com
>> 
>> 
>> --
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Felipe Pimentel]

Dan,

The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a kind of 
"birding war" that would not help to solve any problem but may create new ones, 
including potentially violent encounters in the field that we must avoid. More 
productive could be the development of some flexible guidelines by some local 
groups (like the Audubon society) about what birders or bird photographers 
should do and not do in the field. Codes of ethics are by definition general 
moral principles. In my humble opinion the best policy is self-restraint and a 
good sense of personal responsibility. 
 There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of 
"disturbing" birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder being 
too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only 30. Massive 
birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many birds. When you have 
60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that could create be more 
disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures of the same bird even at 
a closer distance.
 What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and that 
practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those who are 
believers), written in stone.
FP 


On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote:

> 
> Hey Dan,
> 
>  I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals 
> exhibiting the poor behavior.  Some people are just ignorant and just need a 
> little guidance.  Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example.  You 
> approach them, try to considerately educate them.  When they resist and blow 
> you off then communicate to others.  Everyone deserves a fair shake.
> 
> Greg
> 
> -Original Message-
>> From: Dan 
>> Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM
>> To: Gregory Fisher 
>> Cc: "" , NY BIRDS Cornell 
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get 
>> it
>> 
>> Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them 
>> to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their 
>> vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number 
>> too :)
>> 
>> Good birding!
>> 
>> Dan Furbish
>> peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com
> 
> 
> --
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Robert Lewis]

Careful.  This post makes me uneasy.  It smacks of vigilante justice.  

Moderation in all things.

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY

--- On Mon, 2/6/12, Dan  wrote:

> From: Dan 
> Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
> To: "Gregory Fisher" 
> Cc: "" , "NY BIRDS Cornell" 
> 

> 
> Let's all take photos of
> photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the
> appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter
> their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the
> license plate number too :)
> 
> Good birding!
> 
> Dan Furbish
> peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com
> --
> 

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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[PeregrineJV]

I agree! Do not post owls as photographers like myself will probably want  
to photograph them. The bashing continues and as walk with a lens I always 
feel  a sense of discomfort when I see birdwatchers. Which is why I learned a 
long  time ago to keep my mouth shut about any birds I find.. 
So presently this year I will not disclose the location of 2 Snowy owls in  
Ulster County,  4 Saw Whets in Rockland County and the 3 large historical  
roost sites of LEOWs I have been watching for 5 years in Orange  County..
 
 
 
In a message dated 2/6/2012 9:02:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
sausu...@nyc.rr.com writes:

The opinion I voiced, to stop posting about owls, is certainly not a new  
one among birders and has been in practice for years.  It is unfortunate.  
Education will help to reduce disturbance, which is why I re-posted the  ABA's 
ethics principles.  There are a number of web sites that have  similar 
principles for wildlife photographers.  Here is one:  
_http://www.naturephotographers.net/ethics.html_ 
(http://www.naturephotographers.net/ethics.html) 


I was glad to see the Administrator of this list post about ethics a few  
weeks ago.  It was clear from the discussion about baiting owls with mice  
that many people were unaware of the potential problem of habituation, so  
perhaps many are unaware of ethical principles in general.  Or at least  need 
reminding.  As Stella indicated, there are other ways than the  listserv to 
see owls, like getting out and looking.  But please respect  the birds and 
the habitat.


On Feb 6, 2012, at 8:02 AM, Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph.D. wrote:



 
I’ve  seen the same kind of behavior with folks trying to photograph seals 
and  getting too close, or trying to flush the, from haulout sites. 
Educating  these folks and having the MMPA as a threat goes a long way to help 
reduce  the offensive behavior.  
 
I  thoroughly understand the pique we all feel at those who have absolutely 
no  respect for the ecosystems upon which they trod and within which they 
are  photographing, but let’s remember that these folks don’t represent the  
majority. I think that it would be a shame to stop posting information 
about  owls, or other interesting birds/wildlife.  Perhaps one could  post  the 
general vicinity (e.g., Jones Beach, Breezy Point, etc.)  within posting the 
specifics, and your images are geotagged, perhaps you can  post them with 
minimal EXIF data embedded.  If one is interested in the  specifics, they can 
email the poster and request that  info.
 
Artie
 
Arthur  H. Kopelman, Ph. D.
President,
Coastal  Research and Education Society of Long Island
_president@cresli.org_ (mailto:presid...@cresli.org)   
_www.cresli.org
_ (http://www.cresli.org/) 631-244-3352
(  e-mails scanned for viruses before sending)
 
 
 
 
"When  the last individual of a race of living thing breathes no  more,
another  heaven and another earth
must  pass before such a one can be again" ..  William  Beebee
 
P Be  kind to the environment - unless you need to, please don't print this 
 e-mail
 
From: _bounce-39535655-3714799@list.cornell.edu_ 
(mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu)  
[mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu] 
On Behalf Of Stella  Miller
Sent: Monday,  February 06, 2012 7:14 AM
To: _nysbirds-l@cornell.edu_ (mailto:nysbirds-l@cornell.edu) ; Gregory  
Fisher
Subject: Re:  [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't 
get  it
 
 
To jump  into the fray here:  I have personally witnessed more than  just 
two people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed,  on several 
occasions, up to four or five photographers at a time  deliberately flushing 
the 
bird, approaching it too closely,  causing the bird to have to continually 
fly down the beach,  paparazzi in tow.  I have also had reports from friends 
who  have witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so  ago. 

In  another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl  near my 
house.  Two photographers came over and started  snapping away.  I asked 
them to please be respectful of the  bird, keep their distance and not disturb 
it.  I then  pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they  
were leaving.  As I entered the woods, I watched them go  back to the owl, 
and heard their car horn go off several  times.  I cannot confirm, but it 
seemed as though they were  trying to prompt the owl into opening its eyes.  To 
their  credit they did not approach closely, or stay long and did leave  
after 1/2 an hour.  

It is not just  two guys, unfortunately there seems to be a growing rash of 
 unethical behavior occurring, with boundaries being crossed that  should 
not be.  I agree with Seth, owls should not be  listed on the listserv.  Word 
of mouth has worked  wonderfully in the past, in fact, I only joined the 
listserv a  year or so ago and managed to hear about any and all owls that  
were being seen.  

Stella  Miller
President

[nysbirds-l] Turkey Vultures Suffolk County

[Joel Horman]

Early this afternoon 2 Turkey Vultures were seen soaring over Southaven 
County Park, Brookhaven, tending in a northerly direction. Rather early, 
as multiples usually not seen here by us until March.


Peggy & Joel Horman
Ridge, NY

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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Gregory Fisher]

Hey Dan,

  I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals 
exhibiting the poor behavior.  Some people are just ignorant and just need a 
little guidance.  Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example.  You approach 
them, try to considerately educate them.  When they resist and blow you off 
then communicate to others.  Everyone deserves a fair shake.

Greg

-Original Message-
>From: Dan 
>Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM
>To: Gregory Fisher 
>Cc: "" , NY BIRDS Cornell 
>
>Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
>
>Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to 
>the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, 
>try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :)
>
>Good birding!
>
>Dan Furbish
>peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com


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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Dan]

Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to 
the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, 
try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :)

Good birding!

Dan Furbish
peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com
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RE: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Mark Barriger]

The issue here is how to protect owls from being harassed by unethical and just 
plain pathetic photographers/birders. Not whether we should chase birds or 
whether we should report rare birds. So not sure why we got turned in that 
direction but maybe we can focus back on the main problem.
I'm tired of hearing or reading someone saying "it's not fair that we get 
punished just because of a few bad apples". First of all it's not a few bad 
apples it's a bunch and the number is growing every year. It's 2012 and most 
people have a computer, smart phone, and a camera and at 10:30am an owl will be 
reported and by noon there's a mob of people coming and going and thats when 
you get your simple minded morons who show up to get an up close and personal 
shot or view of the owl. You can kick them off the list, you can report they're 
info on the list serve and you can confront them but the fact is we are not 
going to be able to defend these birds 24hrs a day and in fact I'm positive 
that we only observe a small amount of this nonsense. The "serious" birders 
know this because we have spent a great deal of time out in the field and have 
seen it first hand way to many times. I have a family, a full time job, and 
plenty of things to do and when I finally get time to bird watch and enjoy the 
owls I for one am sick and tired of it being ruined.
If people insist on reporting them I liked the suggestion of listing what you 
saw but leave out the specifics. If you want to see that Snowy Owl at Jones 
Beach, that Barred Owl in Central Park, or that Long-eared Owl in Pelham Bay 
put in the foot work and look for it. First of all the Owls not always going to 
be right where it was last seen, you'll probably sharpen up your birding 
skills, and most importantly will cut down on some of the traffic and relieve 
some stress on the birds.
By not reporting the owls doesn't mean keep it quiet but keep it off the net. 
Before birdingonthenet came along we still found owls and word always spread 
and it's not going to totally solve the problem but it would be a huge help. 
Besides half of the excitement is getting your hands dirty, freezing your butt 
off, and finally tracking one down. Thats what bird watching is all about:)

 
 
Mark Barriger
Wallingford, CT



 


> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:58:02 -0500
> From: james...@optonline.net
> Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds
> To: NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu
> 
> Fred speaks well, and, indeed, we need to gather all these thoughts, 
> and, if nothing else, state clearly and succinctly what the problem 
> is. To contribute to this, thinking there might be significant legal 
> aspects to consider, I've placed inquiry with NYSDEC, thinking them 
> the most likely authority on such subjects. I'll post further of 
> anything useful that comes from reply.
> 
> 
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Re: [nysbirds-l] bird disturbance and 'photographers'

[Gregory Fisher]

Hey Adam,  I agree with all you said.  To hear someone complain vehemently that was onsite and did not take the initiative to approach the offenders and then not to even back you up and have the nerve of criticizing all photographers when they themselves are out there photographing the birds is really bold and inappropriate.  I wished I had been there yesterday as I would have loved to see the Snowy Owl and would have supported you completely.  Maybe if there was more than one person speaking up it would have made these folks realize that what they were doing was wrong and a difference could have been made.  We all can be part of the solution or part of the problem.  Its easy to bully one person that is trying to deliver the message.  Its a lot harder if a group of people jointly communicate considerately.    What you have written here makes complete sense to me.  By the way when I do photograph birds I use a big long lens to stay a good distance away and even like to be under cover next to a bush if it is not bothering other wildlife.  Thanks for being a voice of reason with actual experience of what happened yesterday.  I believe it says alot.  For those of you out there that think you are better than us all, do us all a favor, just stay to yourself and keep your big mouths shut.  You folks are part of the problem not the solution.Greg-Original Message-
From: Adam Welz 
Sent: Feb 6, 2012 2:18 PM
To: "NYSbirds-L@cornell.edu" 
Subject: [nysbirds-l] bird disturbance and 'photographers'

Hi Phil & others

Your email brings up a number of points that merit discussion. I think 
that birds have far more serious problems than 'photographers', and I 
think your proposed approach of making bird details 'secret', and the 
approach followed by you and Rob Jett of photographing people and posting their 
details on the net can be harmfully counterproductive.

Here's why I think this:

1) With the net being what it is, there's nothing to stop anyone posting
 any details of any bird to any audience they choose. Cutting off one 
source of information will not stop information getting out.

2) North American birds are generally in decline not because of 
photographers, but because of habitat destruction, collisions with 
buildings, feral cats, poisons etc. -- in roughly that order. Addressing
 these issues means having political power, i.e. birds need people to be
 actively working for their interests in the broader political realm.

3) That's not to say that clueless or selfish photographers and birders 
don't sometimes do things that aren't in birds' interest.

4) The way to address the problems mentioned in 3 and 4 above is 
engagement -- get the word out about birds to the public at large, and 
sensitize photographers and birders to the needs of birds. "If a bird 
looks stressed and flies away from you, you're probably bothering it, 
and you should retreat", etc. These listservs are one way of engaging 
people, another great way is taking people out to see birds in a 
responsible way, and one can also engage photographers who are behaving 
inappropriately while they are doing it. We need more people to be out 
enjoying birds so that birds have a louder voice in the public arena. 
You can show people any number of photographs and tell them any number 
of facts about birds, but actually seeing and enjoying real live wild 
birds is far more powerful.

At the moment we have an awful, confrontational situation between 
certain members of the birding community who think of themselves as 
gatekeepers of information/sites/knowledge, and other birders and the 
public at large: I have stopped counting the number of people that have 
expressed their dismay to me at Rob Jett's aggressive approach of 
trashing strangers' reputations on the internet -- without even talking to
 them on site -- because it creates a feeling that birders are more like
 surveillance police than nature-lovers. Rob has done a lot of birding around NY and it's sad that he's alienated so many people with his attitude. Some people don't know that 
they're walking in a place they're not supposed to, and simply talking 
with them sorts a problem out. (Others are jerks and present somewhat 
more difficult challenges. I'm not proposing saying or doing nothing and maybe, ultimately, repeat offenders could benefit from some attention from law enforcement.)

Phil, you should also know that more and more people think of you as a 
hypocrite, trash-talking 'photographers' while yourself walking around 
with a massive lens. Surely the point is not that people are 'photographers' or 'photographer-birders' or whatever, but that they behave reasonably sensitively to birds? I've never really talked to you, and I don't know 
you, and I have no idea of your character, but I do know that when I 
approached the gentleman who you wrote about in your email, the one 
walking through the dunes after the Snowy Owl, you stood on by just a 
few yards away, saying nothing, 

[nysbirds-l] bird disturbance and 'photographers'

[Adam Welz]

Hi Phil & others

Your email brings up a number of points that merit discussion. I think 
that birds have far more serious problems than 'photographers', and I 
think your proposed approach of making bird details 'secret', and the 
approach followed by you and Rob Jett of photographing people and posting their 
details on the net can be harmfully counterproductive.

Here's why I think this:

1) With the net being what it is, there's nothing to stop anyone posting
 any details of any bird to any audience they choose. Cutting off one 
source of information will not stop information getting out.

2) North American birds are generally in decline not because of 
photographers, but because of habitat destruction, collisions with 
buildings, feral cats, poisons etc. -- in roughly that order. Addressing
 these issues means having political power, i.e. birds need people to be
 actively working for their interests in the broader political realm.

3) That's not to say that clueless or selfish photographers and birders 
don't sometimes do things that aren't in birds' interest.

4) The way to address the problems mentioned in 3 and 4 above is 
engagement -- get the word out about birds to the public at large, and 
sensitize photographers and birders to the needs of birds. "If a bird 
looks stressed and flies away from you, you're probably bothering it, 
and you should retreat", etc. These listservs are one way of engaging 
people, another great way is taking people out to see birds in a 
responsible way, and one can also engage photographers who are behaving 
inappropriately while they are doing it. We need more people to be out 
enjoying birds so that birds have a louder voice in the public arena. 
You can show people any number of photographs and tell them any number 
of facts about birds, but actually seeing and enjoying real live wild 
birds is far more powerful.

At the moment we have an awful, confrontational situation between 
certain members of the birding community who think of themselves as 
gatekeepers of information/sites/knowledge, and other birders and the 
public at large: I have stopped counting the number of people that have 
expressed their dismay to me at Rob Jett's aggressive approach of 
trashing strangers' reputations on the internet -- without even talking to
 them on site -- because it creates a feeling that birders are more like
 surveillance police than nature-lovers. Rob has done a lot of birding around 
NY and it's sad that he's alienated so many people with his attitude. Some 
people don't know that 
they're walking in a place they're not supposed to, and simply talking 
with them sorts a problem out. (Others are jerks and present somewhat 
more difficult challenges. I'm not proposing saying or doing nothing and maybe, 
ultimately, repeat offenders could benefit from some attention from law 
enforcement.)

Phil, you should also know that more and more people think of you as a 
hypocrite, trash-talking 'photographers' while yourself walking around 
with a massive lens. Surely the point is not that people are 'photographers' or 
'photographer-birders' or whatever, but that they behave reasonably sensitively 
to birds? I've never really talked to you, and I don't know 
you, and I have no idea of your character, but I do know that when I 
approached the gentleman who you wrote about in your email, the one 
walking through the dunes after the Snowy Owl, you stood on by just a 
few yards away, saying nothing, while I engaged him on the fact that I'd
 seen him flush the owl and that walking through the dunes was not 
allowed. As it turns out the gentleman was extremely 
defensive/aggressive and the interaction did not go well, but I received
 no support from you -- you seemed to do your best to ignore what was 
going on at the time & emailing about it later. This makes you, sadly, seem 
like a coward.
 I hope to have the chance of forming a better, updated impression of you.

I understand that the previous two paragraphs might ruffle a few 
feathers, and that, as a relative newcomer to New York I'm doubtless 
going to be seen as insulting some of NYC's birding 'royalty'. I'm sorry
 if that's the case, but I've been part of different birding communities
 both within my home country and others, and having birded and 
researched birds over a period of 25 years on 5 continents, I feel I 
have some right to speak.

I think that the various birding listservs should be used as an 
opportunity to educate and engage people around birds and birding 
ethics. I think as many people as possible should be encouraged to bird,
 photograph birds, and celebrate them as possible -- in a responsible 
way -- because that's what's good for birds in the political realm, 
which is where we get to defend their habitats from destruction and 
encroachment. If the public at large don't know that amazing birds are 
living in a place, no-one's going to care when it gets paved over, and 
the best way to get them to care is if 

[nysbirds-l] Suggestion - How to Observe and Photograph Owls Guide

[John Laver]

Watching the brouhaha over inconsiderate photographers with interest.
 Mostly, this is about owls, snowies in particular.  I'm thinking there are
two categories of problem people, those who willfully and consciously
disturb and harass owls for the better shot, and those who lack the field
craft to know how close to get to owls without disturbing them.  Those who
willfully, consciously disturb birds should be warned that they'll be
photographed or videoed and reported to the appropriate authorities (and
God knows there's usually enough photography hardware present at a twitch
to make this a cinch).  The others, I suspect, would respond well to
education.  There's some great institutional knowledge in the birding
community and on this list in particular and someone could coordinate
compiling an Owl Observation & Photography Field Craft Guide.  The ABA
Ethics code is useful, but from memory, it's broadly ethical, not practical.

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[nysbirds-l] BirdCallsRadio Archives | Pete Dunne

[Mardi Dickinson]

Birders et al,

BirdCallsRadio archive is now available of Feb 5 show with our wonderful guest 
Pete Dunne
Chief Communications Officer of New Jersey Audubon and Director of the Cape May 
Bird Observatory
Pete is also the Founder of the World Series of Birding. 
http://birdcallsradio.com/2012/02/06/archive-of-february-5-with-pete-dunne/

Cheers,
Mardi Dickinson
Norwalk CT
http://kymrygroup.com/















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RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Gregory Fisher]

Thanks Dave.  Yes I did not realize that and Jody filled me in too.  Maybe that is where our problem lies.  Should that be protected to only those who subscribe?  Seems like that could go a long way to having more consistent civil birding community.-Original Message-
From: David Klauber 
Sent: Feb 6, 2012 1:10 PM
To: gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com
Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it





Greg I sort of agree with your post, however to just to 1 of your points: Unfortunately kicking someone off the list, while still a good idea, doesn't limit the access to information on the list. Birdingonthe.net is accessible to anyone, for example. I personally received 2 offensive e mails about my white mouse post by people who are not on the list. So, yeah, it should be done, but it doesn't really stop anyone Dave Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:48:53 -0500From: gregoryfis...@sprintmail.comTo: catbird...@yahoo.com; nysbirds-l@cornell.eduSubject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

Hats off to Cindy, very well said.  Also to others on here that have pointed out that it is not just photographers but birders too that exhibit inappropriate behavior.  To say lets just not post on here any species worthwhile, to me is just undermining what this is suppose to be about.  This is suppose to be a community of interested people in birding.  You have to subscribe to get these emails.  Therefore who gets these emails is known.  If a member of this community is going to abuse the privilege of this knowledge, then simply document the occurrence to leaders or organizer of this list.  If found to be valid and the behavior is repeated, simply kicked them off the list.  Don't punish everyone because of the arrogant inconsiderate ones.  There are ways this can be handled to minimize those that don't get it.  If you observe someone behaving inappropriate communicate with them considerately.  If you just stand by and watch it and just complain, then your as big a part of the problem.  Some people are just ignorant.  Once you explain the birding ethics, many people then get it.  For those that don't, report them appropriately and it becomes their loss going forward. I personally don't have days and days of time to go out and find some of these species on my own.  Do I go out and look on my own several times a year yes.  But I will drive several hours with hope of the opportunity to see something unique and / or rare that I have learned on this list, yes too.  That does not make me lazy or a bad person.  There are no guarantees.  The bird might not be there when I get there or just simply may be out of reach or in hiding that day.  Oh well, that is part of the adventure.  Just my opinion.Greg-Original Message-
From: Cindy 
Sent: Feb 6, 2012 9:14 AM
To: NYS Birds 
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead
 and away. You just can't win!I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in
 anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will 

RE: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Kevin J. McGowan]

Seriously?  Get a grip people.  Someone already mentioned how owls bring out 
the worst in people, and I agree.  The topic always sets off a flurry of 
sanctimonious posts from people trying to tell everyone else what to do.

Mention was already made of joggers and dog walkers flushing the owls in the 
same place.  I'd rather have a herd of photographers present than one dog 
running off leash or a family of picnickers with a little kid who likes to 
chase gulls.  

It's not like these owls are coming to some pristine wilderness, they're coming 
where people live and there is nothing to be done about that.  Walking in a 
closed area or trespassing?  Wrong, wrong, wrong.  But being the only person 
avoiding approaching an owl in a public space is kind of silly.

Bottom line - have respect, for the birds, for the law, and for other people 
who might have different desires than you.

And let me suggest that getting more public to see Snowy Owls this winter 
(preferably in a spotting scope of a friendly birder) is a huge potential 
educational opportunity.  Global warming?  Why should I care?  Oh, you mean 
those owls might be hurt?  Boom, personal connection.  Just a thought.

Kevin

Kevin J. McGowan
Ithaca, NY
k...@cornell.edu
607-254-2452


-Original Message-
From: bounce-39537336-3714...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-39537336-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Osterlund
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:58 PM
To: NYSBIRDS-L
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

Fred speaks well, and, indeed, we need to gather all these thoughts,  
and, if nothing else, state clearly and succinctly what the problem  
is.  To contribute to this, thinking there might be significant legal  
aspects to consider, I've placed inquiry with NYSDEC, thinking them  
the most likely authority on such subjects.  I'll post further of  
anything useful that comes from reply.


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[nysbirds-l] Easy solution

[joetf1973]

I just spoke with a couple of people at the DEC. They suggested contacting a 
local conservation officer if you see someone harassing wildlife. There is a 
list of DEC regional offices and agents on the following link:

http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/393.html

I tend to think that most folks using this and other email lists are 
responsible and try to avoid bothering birds and other wildlife. Personally, I 
appreciate getting the "heads up" on a rare bird, however I can understand why 
some folks would be reluctant to post some sightings. I am neither upset or 
offended by some people not posting some sightings in the interest of animal 
welfare. 

Best,

Joe Fell
Buffalo, NY


 

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[nysbirds-l] [ebirdsnyc] Re: 'photographers' and disturbance

[Michael Zablocky]

Well, for me the way out of these annoyances was simple - I stopped chasing 
rarities. My father  was a stamp collector, and I remember how strange and 
compulsive that 'hobby' became for him. When I began to develop that same weird 
behavior, I decided it was time for me to cultivate mental health.

The reason I loved to walk and bike, and to be out in nature since I was a 
child was that it allowed me to be alone and to have quiet. Personally, I never 
liked sports or competition in any form, and I'm probably one of the few native 
born Americans who has no understanding of baseball or football, nor do I care 
to learn. Organized birding always struck me as incredibly strange, the way it 
forces the sports mentality into an essentially gentle activity.

Also, I am extremely chauvinistic. The Northeast is my home, and I always 
thought that the natural direction of heaven would be north. I travelled out 
west, and south to Florida once, and found those trips tiresome. I know I'll 
never repeat them. The idea of traveling to Asia or Africa, or South America is 
absurd to my way of thinking. Originally, I started birding to learn our local 
species, so it never interested me to gawk at birds from parts of the world I 
had no interest in seeing. I could just as easily turn on a National Geographic 
special. 

I tend to agree with Scotty. The majority of birders are not scientists, 
naturalists, or professional photographers. It's a hobby, nothing more. I would 
love for someone to run the numbers for how much fuel is wasted on these treks 
to find rarities. For people who claim to love nature, they should be ashamed. 
The amount of money spent on photographic equipment is staggering also - all to 
make technically perfect photos of the same birds over and over again. And 
almost all of these photographs lacking in artistic and scientific merit. All 
taken just to have taken them yourselves. 

Well, to each his own - I suppose. My apologies to the list owners for lacking 
self-control and adding my nonsense to this. Phil, go with your instinct. Pull 
this, I wouldn't fault you.


Michael S. Zablocky
Brooklyn, NY


"I'm going off the rails on a crazy train." - Ozzy Osbourne



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Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Jim Osterlund]

Fred speaks well, and, indeed, we need to gather all these thoughts,  
and, if nothing else, state clearly and succinctly what the problem  
is.  To contribute to this, thinking there might be significant legal  
aspects to consider, I've placed inquiry with NYSDEC, thinking them  
the most likely authority on such subjects.  I'll post further of  
anything useful that comes from reply.



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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Felipe Pimentel]

The issue should not be one of "them against us" since that would not help at 
all. As a birder and as a photographer, I am concerned that these issues will 
have negative repercussions on the social interactions between us in the field. 
 BTW, most of the bird photographers that I know are not "professional" but 
people who enjoy spending time shooting pictures of birds.  
 Regarding the issue of reporting owl sightings, I stopped doing that after an 
unpleasant experience reporting the location of a Barred Owl that I saw in 
Central Park. Last week I saw a single Long-eared Owl roosting on a pine in 
Hunter Island (Pelham Bay Park). The bird was pretty high on a pine and well 
camouflaged to get a clear shot and I did not even try to get a picture. I 
wanted to report the sighting but I did not know how to do it without being too 
specific and explicit about the location and I did not even bother to do it to 
avoid arguments with other birders. 

FP

On Feb 6, 2012, at 12:22 PM, Nadine Scarpa wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Mark Barriger  wrote:
> 
> "My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious 
> about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time 
> checking online for other people sightings."
>  
> So lets go ahead and punish the folks who are serious about observing birds, 
> yet have full time jobs, families, and other commitments and don't have time 
> to go out looking for birds on a full-time basis.
>  
> Sure - that's it!
>  
> This thread is becoming  an "us" against "them" thread - the "professional" 
> birders versus the folks who love birds, and love watching them, yet cannot 
> spend all day out in the field.
>  
> It's getting ridiculous. 
> This topic is going on in most States right now because of the  number of 
> Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong but 
> honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a "birder" make a 
> dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even 
> just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example.
> A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated 
> Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler 
> to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two 
> photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right in 
> front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no 
> consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to the 
> bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot.
>  I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at what 
> he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed up and 
> released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This person 
> wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT instead went 
> on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value in his flight 
> shots to drop.  Glad to see that his priorities were in order!
> Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for years 
> and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting Owls 
> because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's photographers or 
> birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens nothing good ever comes 
> out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been watching Barred, Saw-whet, and 
> a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have remained in the same areas 
> because nobody knows about them and nobody bothers them. 
> My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious 
> about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time 
> checking online for other people sightings.  
>  
>  
> Mark Barriger
> Wallingford, CT
> 
> 
> 
>  
> From: ll...@lloydspitalnikphotos.com
> To: NYSbirds-l@cornell.edu
> CC: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
> Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible situation. 
> I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional wildlife 
> photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I’ve 
> always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know 
> there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it’s at lamppost 7902 
> isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling 
> people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that 
> self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I was at Jones 
> Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started approaching the 
> owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew. I was the first 
> to get to its new location and kind of set up a line where the 

Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Felipe Pimentel]

The issue should not be one of "them against us" since that would not help at 
all. As a birder and as a photographer, I am concerned that these issues will 
have negative repercussions on the social interactions between us in the field. 
 BTW, most of the bird photographers that I know are not "professional" but 
people who enjoy spending time shooting pictures of birds.  
 Regarding the issue of reporting owl sightings, I stopped doing that after an 
unpleasant experience reporting the location of a Barred Owl that I saw in 
Central Park. Last week I saw a single Long-eared Owl roosting on a pine in 
Hunter Island (Pelham Bay Park). The bird was pretty high on a pine and well 
camouflaged to get a clear shot and I did not even try to get a picture. I 
wanted to report the sighting but I did not know how to do it without being too 
specific and explicit about the location and I did not even bother to do it to 
avoid arguments with other birders. 

FP



On Feb 6, 2012, at 12:22 PM, Nadine Scarpa wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Mark Barriger  wrote:
> 
> "My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious 
> about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time 
> checking online for other people sightings."
>  
> So lets go ahead and punish the folks who are serious about observing birds, 
> yet have full time jobs, families, and other commitments and don't have time 
> to go out looking for birds on a full-time basis.
>  
> Sure - that's it!
>  
> This thread is becoming  an "us" against "them" thread - the "professional" 
> birders versus the folks who love birds, and love watching them, yet cannot 
> spend all day out in the field.
>  
> It's getting ridiculous. 
> This topic is going on in most States right now because of the  number of 
> Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong but 
> honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a "birder" make a 
> dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even 
> just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example.
> A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated 
> Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler 
> to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two 
> photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right in 
> front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no 
> consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to the 
> bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot.
>  I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at what 
> he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed up and 
> released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This person 
> wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT instead went 
> on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value in his flight 
> shots to drop.  Glad to see that his priorities were in order!
> Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for years 
> and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting Owls 
> because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's photographers or 
> birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens nothing good ever comes 
> out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been watching Barred, Saw-whet, and 
> a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have remained in the same areas 
> because nobody knows about them and nobody bothers them. 
> My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious 
> about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time 
> checking online for other people sightings.  
>  
>  
> Mark Barriger
> Wallingford, CT
> 
> 
> 
>  
> From: ll...@lloydspitalnikphotos.com
> To: NYSbirds-l@cornell.edu
> CC: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
> Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible situation. 
> I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional wildlife 
> photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I’ve 
> always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know 
> there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it’s at lamppost 7902 
> isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling 
> people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that 
> self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I was at Jones 
> Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started approaching the 
> owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew. I was the first 
> to get to its new location and kind of set up a line where the 

Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Gregory Fisher]

Well said Fred and Peter.  -Original Message-
From: Fred Baumgarten 
Sent: Feb 6, 2012 12:38 PM
To: NYSBirds-L@cornell.edu
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

I like Peter's posting and would like to add a few thoughts.  Maybe I'm missing something, but the question that doesn't seem to be fully addressed is: What do we do about it?
 
Keeping sightings off the listserves is one solution, but one that a lot of people, myself included, have difficulty with.  As others have pointed out, it fosters an attitude of elitism and exclusivity that many have tried to overcome in the birding community.

 
Moreover, I'm not convinced it would make that big a difference.  There is an implication here that those who get sightings off a listserve are somehow inherently less respectful birders.  I'm not buying that.  Just because I read about an owl online rather than go trekking to Jones Beach, say, to look for one myself isn't going to change the way I go about looking at the bird.  (That is to say, hopefully with respect.)

 
You could argue that posting increases the numbers, and thereby increases the chances of malfeasance.  Maybe.  But I'm not convinced other channels wouldn't have the same effect.  If a Snowy Owl showed up at Breezy Point, word would travel, listserve or not.  And to the person who suggested posting the general area, not the specific dune, that just seems pointless to me.  Having to search far and wide makes one more respectful than zeroing in on the spot?

 
There's also an ancillary benefit to the postings, in my opinion.  I like to know!  99% of the time I don't get out to look for the bird myself, but it excites me to know what's going on in the world of birding and rarities.

 
I'm intrigued by the photographer/birder who says he gets within 15 feet (or yards, I can't remember which) of the owl, and that's enough to keep the bird from flushing.  How does he decide what the "correct" distance is?  Is he still walking through fragile dunes to get to his mythical line?  While I have no bias against photographers vs. birders, might we admit that to get a good shot, a professional or amateur photographer has to approach a bird considerably closer than a birder to get a "satisfactory" shot/look?  So we are back to the question of what do we do?  The problem is not going to go away on its own.

 
Another source of confusion: What are we trying to protect?  The habitat, the bird, or every birder's right at having a fair chance of seeing the bird?  Or all three?  The conditions for each may be very different.  If the dunes at Breezy Point are closed off to protect the habitat, then the solution is to enforce those boundaries absolutely, and maybe we need to find out how we can enhance enforcement.

 
I suggest, as have others, that ultimately the answer lies in educating ourselves and others in proper birding ethics and etiquette.  We need to think creatively and without blaming about how to do this.  Maybe birders out to see a Snowy Owl can bring a sign with them that explains the proper viewing distance and behavior.  Maybe we need to somehow designate "captains" to regulate viewing, and at least provide powerful viewing equipment for visitors to share.  Maybe we need to have designated times when photographers can go closer for shots.  

 
I don't know.  But we need to keep working for solutions, together, constructively.
 
--Fred--
 
Fred Baumgarten
Sharon, CT/Westchester, NY
And Points In-between
fredbee.ea...@gmail.com
 
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Peter Priolo  wrote:


List Members: 

I am a recent subscriber of this list-serve.  Having read some but not all of the comments and opinions on the encroachment of birds for whatever the motive, I have decided to share some points. From my relative outside perspective, I see this issue to be one of great controversy and I feel a sort of unrest among a community of people who may actually all be on the same side.  I want to try to make a point that the state of the birds and our shared environment will be better stewarded to if we are to unite in our efforts. I mean to say we are attacking ourselves, pointing the finger in the mirror.



Motivated by a recent statement made by the president of the ABA, I think that those of us who are personally capable of doing so, should educate others while birding in the field.  The intention of the comment was to turn non-birders on to birding, but this can apply to those who are already introduced to birds but maybe not aware of their ethical birding offenses.  Some offenders may be well aware of their offenses I understand.  But I think the state of the birds will be more sustainable in the long run if we spread the special yearning, love, investment, wonder, research, and compassion for these taxon to more and more people in the world.  It will hurt birds if birders assault each other.  Birders are a minority to begin with, we need to grow 

Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Fred Baumgarten]

I like Peter's posting and would like to add a few thoughts.  Maybe I'm
missing something, but the question that doesn't seem to be fully addressed
is: What do we do about it?

Keeping sightings off the listserves is one solution, but one that a lot of
people, myself included, have difficulty with.  As others have pointed out,
it fosters an attitude of elitism and exclusivity that many have tried to
overcome in the birding community.

Moreover, I'm not convinced it would make that big a difference.  There is
an implication here that those who get sightings off a listserve are
somehow inherently less respectful birders.  I'm not buying that.  Just
because I read about an owl online rather than go trekking to Jones Beach,
say, to look for one myself isn't going to change the way I go about
looking at the bird.  (That is to say, hopefully with respect.)

You could argue that posting increases the numbers, and thereby increases
the chances of malfeasance.  Maybe.  But I'm not convinced other channels
wouldn't have the same effect.  If a Snowy Owl showed up at Breezy Point,
word would travel, listserve or not.  And to the person who suggested
posting the general area, not the specific dune, that just seems pointless
to me.  Having to search far and wide makes one more respectful than
zeroing in on the spot?

There's also an ancillary benefit to the postings, in my opinion.  I like
to know!  99% of the time I don't get out to look for the bird myself, but
it excites me to know what's going on in the world of birding and rarities.

I'm intrigued by the photographer/birder who says he gets within 15 feet
(or yards, I can't remember which) of the owl, and that's enough to keep
the bird from flushing.  How does he decide what the "correct" distance
is?  Is he still walking through fragile dunes to get to his mythical
line?  While I have no bias against photographers vs. birders, might we
admit that to get a good shot, a professional or amateur photographer has
to approach a bird considerably closer than a birder to get a
"satisfactory" shot/look?  So we are back to the question of what do we
do?  The problem is not going to go away on its own.

Another source of confusion: What are we trying to protect?  The habitat,
the bird, or every birder's right at having a fair chance of seeing the
bird?  Or all three?  The conditions for each may be very different.  If
the dunes at Breezy Point are closed off to protect the habitat, then the
solution is to enforce those boundaries absolutely, and maybe we need to
find out how we can enhance enforcement.

I suggest, as have others, that ultimately the answer lies in educating
ourselves and others in proper birding ethics and etiquette.  We need to
think creatively and without blaming about how to do this.  Maybe birders
out to see a Snowy Owl can bring a sign with them that explains the proper
viewing distance and behavior.  Maybe we need to somehow designate
"captains" to regulate viewing, and at least provide powerful viewing
equipment for visitors to share.  Maybe we need to have designated times
when photographers can go closer for shots.

I don't know.  But we need to keep working for solutions, together,
constructively.

--Fred--

Fred Baumgarten
Sharon, CT/Westchester, NY
And Points In-between
fredbee.ea...@gmail.com


On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Peter Priolo wrote:

>  List Members:
>
> I am a recent subscriber of this list-serve.  Having read some but not all
> of the comments and opinions on the encroachment of birds for whatever the
> motive, I have decided to share some points. From my relative outside
> perspective, I see this issue to be one of great controversy and I feel a
> sort of unrest among a community of people who may actually all be on the
> same side.  I want to try to make a point that the state of the birds and
> our shared environment will be better stewarded to if we are to unite in
> our efforts. I mean to say we are attacking ourselves, pointing the finger
> in the mirror.
>
>  Motivated by a recent statement made by the president of the ABA, I
> think that those of us who are personally capable of doing so, should
> educate others while birding in the field.  The intention of the comment
> was to turn non-birders on to birding, but this can apply to those who are
> already introduced to birds but maybe not aware of their ethical birding
> offenses.  Some offenders may be well aware of their offenses I understand.
>  But I think the state of the birds will be more sustainable in the long
> run if we spread the special yearning, love, investment, wonder, research,
> and compassion for these taxon to more and more people in the world.  *It
> will hurt birds if birders assault each other.*  Birders are a minority
> to begin with, we need to grow our efforts.  Some photographers may be more
> owl-like than owls themselves, but in most Snowy Owl photos I have seen,
> the owl had been looking directly at the lens implying the photographer is
> 

Re: [nysbirds-l] Photographer problem at Breezy Point

[Nadine Scarpa]

Scotty - Your statement is beyond ridiculous.



On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:25 PM, scotty...@aol.com wrote:

> If your a good birder,  then u should know your locations for finding
> birds. Hiking is supposed to be part of the fun but its lost with the
> public. Posting rare birds locations online is stupid. Everyone will want
> to see and word will be spread.  Keep it secret, keep it sacred and keep
> the unwanted away from these locations. People ate coming from put of state
> now. You are all to blame.
>
> Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!
>
> - Reply message -
> From: "Nadine Scarpa" 
> Date: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 10:56 am
> Subject: [nysbirds-l] Photographer problem at Breezy Point
> To: 
>
> I was just about to post the same question about purpose, since the group
> rules state:
>
>
> "The primary purpose of the List is to disseminate information about wild
> bird sightings in and around New York State in a timely manner and to
> provide an effective electronic forum for New York State area birders."
>
>
>
> Instead of having respectful and ethical birders miss the opportunity to
> see rare birds, we apparently need to police our own.
>
>
>
> I also know that the ethics of birding also calls for using discretion
> when revealing locations of rarities.  It would be unwise to post location
> information to a generic website, but isn't that what this list is really
> for?
>
>
>
> I have seen as many "birders" as other clueless folks get too close to
> birds, or cross onto private property, or just behave badly when trying to
> see a rarity.
>
>
>
> I treasure this list, and others like it, that allow folks to see birds
> they wouldn't normally know about, or get to see in their lifetime!  I've
> also done my share of reporting the folks who either break rules or laws in
> the course of trying to see a bird.  I will continue to do that, and I hope
> to also continue learning about the rarities and other information from
> this list.
>
>
>
> I hope the location posts continue.  It would be sad to deprive the "good"
> birders of this information.
>
>
>
> Nadine
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Jim Osterlund wrote:
>
>> I wonder, then;  what purpose does this list serve?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Nadine Scarpa]

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Mark Barriger wrote:

"My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious
about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less
time checking online for other people sightings."

So lets go ahead and punish the folks who are serious about observing
birds, yet have full time jobs, families, and other commitments and don't
have time to go out looking for birds on a full-time basis.

Sure - that's it!

This thread is becoming  an "us" against "them" thread - the "professional"
birders versus the folks who love birds, and love watching them, yet cannot
spend all day out in the field.

It's getting ridiculous.

>  This topic is going on in most States right now because of the  number
> of Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong
> but honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a "birder" make
> a dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even
> just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example.
> A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated
> Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler
> to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two
> photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right
> in front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no
> consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to
> the bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot.
>  I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at
> what he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed
> up and released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This
> person wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT
> instead went on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value
> in his flight shots to drop.  Glad to see that his priorities were in order!
> Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for
> years and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting
> Owls because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's
> photographers or birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens
> nothing good ever comes out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been
> watching Barred, Saw-whet, and a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have
> remained in the same areas because nobody knows about them and nobody
> bothers them.
> My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious
> about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less
> time checking online for other people sightings.
>
>
> *Mark Barriger
> Wallingford, CT*
>
>
>
>
>  --
> From: ll...@lloydspitalnikphotos.com
> To: NYSbirds-l@cornell.edu
> CC: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
> Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't
> get it
> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500
>
>
>  Hi all,
>
> I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible
> situation. I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional
> wildlife photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a
> listowner I’ve always discouraged posting of specific owl locations.
> Letting people know there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying
> it’s at lamppost 7902 isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy
> Point, OK but telling people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I
> personally believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or
> so ago, I was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when
> somebody started approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of
> course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to its new location and kind
> of set up a line where the owl wasn’t disturbed but close enough to take
> photos. The offending photographer arriver shortly after and started doing
> the same thing again. I told him he needed to stop and explained what he
> was doing was wrong. He listened, stayed a few more hours and never abused
> the bird again.
>
> There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are
> effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird
> without alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won’t go into the
> technique but I took over 4000 images of “Whitey” and the bird always
> seemed quite serene. I haven’t really post many images but if you’re on
> Facebook I’m sure you can find a few.
>
> Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as
> self-policing. Just my 3 cents.
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Lloyd
>
> Lloyd Spitalnik Photography
>
> www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com
>
>
>
> *From:* bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:
> bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu] *On Behalf Of *Sam Stuart
> *Sent:* Monday, 

[nysbirds-l] a reality check

[Diana Teta]

In any profession, sport, hobby, occupation business,  or whatever,   there
are people who do  "bad" things at the expense of others. Some are good
people who should know better and some are just bad people.  The assumption
that may be in error is   people learn from their mistakes or from feedback
on their behavior.  How long has this debate/conflict about bad behavior on
birders or photographers part been occurring?   Literally years and years.
The learning curve appears to be flat.

Many cry foul when rules, conditions, limits are established yet will not
take accountability for the lack of change in an issue.

Diana Teta

\Long Island, NY


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[nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Peter Priolo]

List Members:
I am a recent subscriber of this list-serve.  Having read some but not all of 
the comments and opinions on the encroachment of birds for whatever the motive, 
I have decided to share some points. From my relative outside perspective, I 
see this issue to be one of great controversy and I feel a sort of unrest among 
a community of people who may actually all be on the same side.  I want to try 
to make a point that the state of the birds and our shared environment will be 
better stewarded to if we are to unite in our efforts. I mean to say we are 
attacking ourselves, pointing the finger in the mirror.
Motivated by a recent statement made by the president of the ABA, I think that 
those of us who are personally capable of doing so, should educate others while 
birding in the field.  The intention of the comment was to turn non-birders on 
to birding, but this can apply to those who are already introduced to birds but 
maybe not aware of their ethical birding offenses.  Some offenders may be well 
aware of their offenses I understand.  But I think the state of the birds will 
be more sustainable in the long run if we spread the special yearning, love, 
investment, wonder, research, and compassion for these taxon to more and more 
people in the world.  It will hurt birds if birders assault each other.  
Birders are a minority to begin with, we need to grow our efforts.  Some 
photographers may be more owl-like than owls themselves, but in most Snowy Owl 
photos I have seen, the owl had been looking directly at the lens implying the 
photographer is conspicuous to some level, but; it is the look of those bright 
eskimo eyes looking back at me on the post card or request for donation that 
encourage me to take positive action. For example, I posted a sighting this 
past weekend and someone traveling from NYC to Long Island saw the post, viewed 
the species, and sent me a thank you email. The viewpoint to see the birds was 
one of appropriateness and I believe no threat to the birds occurred. As a 
result, the passion for birds was spread among us. 
Many birders, whether hobbyist, ornithologist, photographers, 
conservation/preservation, PhD or 13 years old,  etc.- we all have some 
interest in birding that can lead to the further preservation, protection, 
discovery, knowledge, fund raising, support, emotional/recreational/spiritual 
related advancement of our worlds birds and their environment.   Among other 
things, I am a naturalist, a birder, a photographer, a living spiritual being 
affected by many issues related to our avian communities and their and our 
environment.  I don't want to be criticized or confronted by a polarized crowd 
of peers demanding me to chose a side for having both a camera and a spotting 
scope in the field.  We are on the same side. Yes I have flushed birds in 
pursuit of a fleeting opportunity that I had maybe been caught up in for 
various reasons whether adrenaline, obsession, emotion, curiosity, data 
collection, accidental etc.  And I have felt the human side of remorse and 
regret as a result of maybe flushing an apex predator. What effect (energy 
conservation or intake from feeding for example) does flushing a relatively few 
birds, when compared to the regional population of that species, have on that 
species population in the long run? I'm not sure. It obviously affects birders. 
Peter PrioloCenter Moriches  


  
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RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Mark Barriger]

This topic is going on in most States right now because of the  number of Snowy 
Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong but honestly 
at least three quarters of the time when I see a "birder" make a dumb 
controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even just with 
owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example.
A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated 
Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler to 
come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two 
photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right in 
front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no consideration 
to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to the bird itself. 
All they cared about was getting that shot.
 I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at what he 
witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed up and 
released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This person wasn't 
mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT instead went on to 
talk about how this kind of action was causing the value in his flight shots to 
drop.  Glad to see that his priorities were in order!
Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for years and 
I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting Owls because 
90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's photographers or birders the 
fact is owls atract and when that happens nothing good ever comes out of it. 
Over the past two weeks I have been watching Barred, Saw-whet, and a Snowy Owl 
here in Connecticut and all have remained in the same areas because nobody 
knows about them and nobody bothers them. 
My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about 
observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking 
online for other people sightings.  
 
 
Mark Barriger
Wallingford, CT



 




From: ll...@lloydspitalnikphotos.com
To: NYSbirds-l@cornell.edu
CC: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500








Hi all,
I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible situation. I 
come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional wildlife 
photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I’ve 
always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know 
there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it’s at lamppost 7902 
isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling 
people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that 
self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I was at Jones Beach 
photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started approaching the owl in 
a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to 
its new location and kind of set up a line where the owl wasn’t disturbed but 
close enough to take photos. The offending photographer arriver shortly after 
and started doing the same thing again. I told him he needed to stop and 
explained what he was doing was wrong. He listened, stayed a few more hours and 
never abused the bird again.
There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are 
effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird without 
alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won’t go into the technique 
but I took over 4000 images of “Whitey” and the bird always seemed quite 
serene. I haven’t really post many images but if you’re on Facebook I’m sure 
you can find a few. 
Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as self-policing. 
Just my 3 cents.
 
All the best,
Lloyd
Lloyd Spitalnik Photography
www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com
 
From: bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Sam Stuart
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 10:19 AM
To: david speiser
Cc: NYS Birds
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
 

All,

 

We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those 
with.  It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and irregular 
species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with others.  This is 
especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial and sedentary 
species that are more susceptible to disturbances.   These species should 
probably be documented on eBird (www.eBird.org) and the NY State Avian Records 
Committee (http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list 
serve.  


 

Thanks,

Sam Stuart


 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser  
wrote:


I too agree with Cindy's summation.
The birding 

[nysbirds-l] Lewis woodpecker an apology

[Diana Teta]

Sorry I wrote in the wrong woodpecker, but the sentiments remain the same.

Thanks for the correction sent to me.

Diana Teta\

Long Island, NY


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Fwd: [nysbirds-l] Photographer problem at Breezy Point

[Jim Osterlund]

Sent to me directly, by mistake;

Begin forwarded message:

From: scotty...@aol.com 
Date: February 6, 2012 7:12:36 AM EST
To: Jim Osterlund 
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Photographer problem at Breezy Point

It serves the ignorant, the lazy, and the the followers that have  
nothing better to do with there lives but annoy the professionals.  
This is the 1st year I had to endure women talking about car payments  
and mortgages out on wildlife walks. And the 1st year I have watched  
people yell across the dunes to get the birds attention. All I hear  
these days is talking when I should hear silence with wind and the  
waves crashing. This list has ruined the experience for many. And it's  
not worth it!
Sorry for the reality check.

Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!

- Reply message -
From: "Jim Osterlund" 
Date: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 12:09 am
Subject: [nysbirds-l] Photographer problem at Breezy Point
To: 

I wonder, then;  what purpose does this list serve?


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[nysbirds-l] Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge (JBWR) This Morning (Queens Co.)

[ken feustel]

We arrived at JBWR at 6:45AM. We quickly located the Barrow's Goldeneye on the 
West Pond in the company of nearly one hundred Common Goldeneye. The Barrow's 
flew out to the bay (southwest direction) with the Common Goldeneye at 7:30AM. 
While searching through the rafts of waterfowl on the northwest side of the 
West Pond a Virginia Rail made an appearance in an opening in the Phragmites. 
We then headed over to the East Pond where we missed the Eurasian Wigeon, 
although twenty-six American Wigeon were at the south end of the pond.  We also 
observed a second winter Iceland Gull on the East Pond. 

On a related bird note, on Sunday morning at Sunken Meadow State Park there 
were eighteen Great Egrets feeding in Sunken Meadow Creek west of the foot 
bridge. 

Ken & Sue Feustel



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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Felipe Pimentel]

I share David's and Cindy's views about the issue of restricting information 
about bird sightings. Before the time of the Internet (before the 1990s) 
birders got info about bird sightings mostly through phone calls. At that time, 
the number of active birders (or bird watchers was smaller than today). The 
significant increase in the number of birders (and bird photographers) has had 
positive and negative consequences. I will not repeat some of the so-called 
“negative” consequences since others have pointed out what they are. On the 
positive side, because their involvement in birding there are more people 
interested in wildlife and the environment and as concerned citizens they are 
important segment of the population that can be mobilized to protect these 
domains. According to survey data, during the past decade (2000-2010) about 48 
million adults participated in different forms of bird watching in the United 
States.
 I am mentioning the data to argue against any silly idea of restricting 
information about birds to a small group of selected birders since that would 
not contribute to expand the interest on birds among those who may join us in 
the field. And, it will not work since there are always other ways to get the 
info.
 On the other hand, tensions and conflicts between birders and photographers 
will not disappear. However, we should try to minimize these tensions since we 
are going to share the same spaces and we are going to be in the field looking 
for the same birds. While bird watchers can see birds from a relative long 
distance (using powerful scopes and first class binoculars) photographers know 
that in order to get a quality picture of a bird they have to come much closer 
to the subject than the so-called traditional “birder” even when you use the 
most powerful lenses in this craft (lenses above 500mm). One exception would be 
digiscoping but that is not photography in the traditional sense of the word.
 In last instance, the dilemma is a trade-off between competing interests. When 
I am in the field taking pictures of birds (and there are traditional 
birders/bird watchers around) I do my best not to disturb what other birders 
are doing. I try not to use flash (even if sometimes there is not alternative) 
and I kept longer distances from birds (than when I am alone) and sometimes I 
don’t try to take the shot if I feel it could create potential problems with my 
colleagues in the field. When I started doing bird photography several years 
ago I made several mistakes but I have learned from them. That is the best 
thing you can do.

Felipe

On Feb 6, 2012, at 10:08 AM, david speiser wrote:

> I too agree with Cindy's summation.
> The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that 
> make it easy
> not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway.
> Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a 
> Ross' Gull shows up!
> That would need to be kept secret.
>  
> Good birding,
> 
> David Speiser
> www.lilibirds.com
>  
> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800
> From: catbird...@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
> To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
> 
> To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen 
> photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember 
> one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach 
> a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see 
> this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We 
> saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at 
> least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 
> feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more 
> skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son 
> and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too 
> closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. 
> You just can't win!
> 
> I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding 
> listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery 
> slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, 
> or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder 
> (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), 
> will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the 
> experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?
> 
> Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees 
> what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club 
> of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for 
> one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for 
> rarities, and am 

Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Nadine Scarpa]

We use THIS list (and others) to get "in the loop".  Not all of us have our
days free to wander all over the state looking for rarities or trying to
find other birders in the field to talk with to get "the scoop" on rarities.

We have full-time jobs, families, and many other commitments, which is why
this list (and others like it) allows us to see the many incredible rare
birds that grace our us with their presence.





On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Seth Ausubel  wrote:

> I agree that my position is unfortunate and inconvenient for many.  But
> posts on this list have a major impact.  For example, I was out at Breezy
> Point on Saturday.  There were few birders and only one photographer when I
> was there, and the owls were left in peace.  Then, a post on NYSBirds, and,
> well, we have seen the result on Sunday.  I do NOT mean to single out the
> person who posted, just to point out the consequences of the Listserv in
> situations such as this.  If someone wants to see a Snowy Owl they will
> still have opportunities, though perhaps requiring more effort.  I know
> this is disadvantageous to many, but our responsibility is to the birds and
> their habitat first.  So to all, if you are not "in the loop",  get out and
> look.  Talk to other birders.  That's how you get in the loop.
>
> Seth
>
>  On Feb 6, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Robert Lewis wrote:
>
>   As a long-time resident and birder of New York state (more than 30
> years) I agree with Cindy.
>
> We must not fall into any extremist position.
>
> It would be beyond a shame to go back to the old "word of mouth" system,
> when only a self-appointed elite knew about rarities.
>
> Respond appropriately to situations as they arise.  No knee-jerk
> reactions. That is the middle path.
>
> Bob Lewis
> Sleepy Hollow NY
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On *Mon, 2/6/12, Cindy * wrote:
>
>
> From: Cindy 
> Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't
> get it
> To: "NYS Birds" 
> Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 9:14 AM
>
> 
>
> I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding
> listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery
> slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting,
> or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or
> birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own
> back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off
> and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the
> bird!)?
>
> Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees
> what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private
> club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate.
> I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out
> for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually
> don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really
> well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other
> respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area
> just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird.
>
> There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless
> joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to
> the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence
> around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even
> license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's
> not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the
> occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think
> that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on
> something really special.
>
> have a great day!
> Cindy Wodinsky
> --
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Seth Ausubel]

I agree that my position is unfortunate and inconvenient for many.  But posts 
on this list have a major impact.  For example, I was out at Breezy Point on 
Saturday.  There were few birders and only one photographer when I was there, 
and the owls were left in peace.  Then, a post on NYSBirds, and, well, we have 
seen the result on Sunday.  I do NOT mean to single out the person who posted, 
just to point out the consequences of the Listserv in situations such as this.  
If someone wants to see a Snowy Owl they will still have opportunities, though 
perhaps requiring more effort.  I know this is disadvantageous to many, but our 
responsibility is to the birds and their habitat first.  So to all, if you are 
not "in the loop",  get out and look.  Talk to other birders.  That's how you 
get in the loop.

Seth
  
On Feb 6, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Robert Lewis wrote:

> As a long-time resident and birder of New York state (more than 30 years) I 
> agree with Cindy.
> 
> We must not fall into any extremist position.
> 
> It would be beyond a shame to go back to the old "word of mouth" system, when 
> only a self-appointed elite knew about rarities.  
> 
> Respond appropriately to situations as they arise.  No knee-jerk reactions. 
> That is the middle path.
> 
> Bob Lewis
> Sleepy Hollow NY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Cindy  wrote:
> 
> From: Cindy 
> Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
> To: "NYS Birds" 
> Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 9:14 AM
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding 
> listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery 
> slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, 
> or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder 
> (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), 
> will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the 
> experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?
> 
> Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees 
> what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club 
> of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for 
> one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for 
> rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't 
> like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. 
> Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other 
> respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just 
> to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. 
> 
> There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless 
> joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to 
> the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence 
> around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even 
> license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not 
> worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the 
> occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think 
> that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something 
> really special. 
> 
> have a great day!
> Cindy Wodinsky
> --
> NYSbirds-L List Info:
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> ...
> --
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Seth Ausubel
Forest Hills, NY




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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Dan]

Go find a rare bird. 

Sent from my iPhone4
Please, always leave a message, I screen every call. Thx.

On Feb 6, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Cindy  wrote:

> To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen 
> photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember 
> one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach 
> a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see 
> this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We 
> saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at 
> least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 
> feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more 
> skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son 
> and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too 
> closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. 
> You just can't win!
> 
> I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding 
> listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery 
> slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, 
> or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder 
> (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), 
> will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the 
> experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?
> 
> Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees 
> what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club 
> of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for 
> one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for 
> rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't 
> like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. 
> Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other 
> respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just 
> to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. 
> 
> There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless 
> joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to 
> the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence 
> around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even 
> license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not 
> worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the 
> occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think 
> that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something 
> really special. 
> 
> have a great day!
> Cindy Wodinsky
> --
> NYSbirds-L List Info:
> Welcome and Basics
> Rules and Information
> Subscribe, Configuration and Leave
> Archives:
> The Mail Archive
> Surfbirds
> BirdingOnThe.Net
> Please submit your observations to eBird!
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Robert Lewis]

As a long-time resident and birder of New York state (more than 30 years) I 
agree with Cindy.

We must not fall into any extremist position.

It would be beyond a shame to go back to the old "word of mouth" system, when 
only a self-appointed elite knew about rarities.  

Respond appropriately to situations as they arise.  No knee-jerk reactions. 
That is the middle path.

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY





--- On Mon, 2/6/12, Cindy  wrote:

From: Cindy 
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
To: "NYS Birds" 
Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 9:14 AM



I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding 
listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst 
owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare 
bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those 
exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get 
close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for 
everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?
Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, 
turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of 
sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one 
don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, 
and am not in
 anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I 
know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for 
me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who 
might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy 
bird. 
There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless 
joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the 
photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around 
these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) 
of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while 
to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer 
an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of 
decent, good folks losing out on something really
 special. 
have a great day!Cindy Wodinsky  
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Photographer problem at Breezy Point

[Nadine Scarpa]

I was just about to post the same question about purpose, since the group
rules state:


"The primary purpose of the List is to disseminate information about wild
bird sightings in and around New York State in a timely manner and to
provide an effective electronic forum for New York State area birders."



Instead of having respectful and ethical birders miss the opportunity to
see rare birds, we apparently need to police our own.



I also know that the ethics of birding also calls for using discretion when
revealing locations of rarities.  It would be unwise to post location
information to a generic website, but isn't that what this list is really
for?



I have seen as many "birders" as other clueless folks get too close to
birds, or cross onto private property, or just behave badly when trying to
see a rarity.



I treasure this list, and others like it, that allow folks to see birds
they wouldn't normally know about, or get to see in their lifetime!  I've
also done my share of reporting the folks who either break rules or laws in
the course of trying to see a bird.  I will continue to do that, and I hope
to also continue learning about the rarities and other information from
this list.



I hope the location posts continue.  It would be sad to deprive the "good"
birders of this information.



Nadine

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Jim Osterlund wrote:

> I wonder, then;  what purpose does this list serve?
>
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Gregory Fisher]

Hats off to Cindy, very well said.  Also to others on here that have pointed out that it is not just photographers but birders too that exhibit inappropriate behavior.  To say lets just not post on here any species worthwhile, to me is just undermining what this is suppose to be about.  This is suppose to be a community of interested people in birding.  You have to subscribe to get these emails.  Therefore who gets these emails is known.  If a member of this community is going to abuse the privilege of this knowledge, then simply document the occurrence to leaders or organizer of this list.  If found to be valid and the behavior is repeated, simply kicked them off the list.  Don't punish everyone because of the arrogant inconsiderate ones.  There are ways this can be handled to minimize those that don't get it.  If you observe someone behaving inappropriate communicate with them considerately.  If you just stand by and watch it and just complain, then your as big a part of the problem.  Some people are just ignorant.  Once you explain the birding ethics, many people then get it.  For those that don't, report them appropriately and it becomes their loss going forward. I personally don't have days and days of time to go out and find some of these species on my own.  Do I go out and look on my own several times a year yes.  But I will drive several hours with hope of the opportunity to see something unique and / or rare that I have learned on this list, yes too.  That does not make me lazy or a bad person.  There are no guarantees.  The bird might not be there when I get there or just simply may be out of reach or in hiding that day.  Oh well, that is part of the adventure.  Just my opinion.Greg-Original Message-
From: Cindy 
Sent: Feb 6, 2012 9:14 AM
To: NYS Birds 
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead
 and away. You just can't win!I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in
 anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really
 special. have a great day!Cindy Wodinsky  
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The 

[nysbirds-l] ADMIN: Ethics Thread

[Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes]

As Listowner of NYSbirds-L, I am monitoring this thread in the background. This 
is an important discussion to have on the eList.

Please continue to keep the comments considerate and thoughtful.

For reference again, here is the American Birding Association (ABA) Code of 
Ethics - Principles of Birding Ethics: http://www.aba.org/about/ethics.html

Also, here is the previously posted Nature Photographers Ethics Resource Page: 
http://www.naturephotographers.net/ethics.html

Thanks and good birding!

Sincerely,
Chris T-H

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Ithaca, New York
c...@cornell.edu
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RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Lloyd Spitalnik]

Hi all,
I was going to stay out of this thread because it's an impossible situation.
I come from 3 directions. I'm a long time birder, a professional wildlife
photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I've
always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know
there's a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it's at lamppost
7902 isn't. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but
telling people it's in the third dune back, not as good. I personally
believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I
was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started
approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew.
I was the first to get to its new location and kind of set up a line where
the owl wasn't disturbed but close enough to take photos. The offending
photographer arriver shortly after and started doing the same thing again. I
told him he needed to stop and explained what he was doing was wrong. He
listened, stayed a few more hours and never abused the bird again.
There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are
effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird
without alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won't go into the
technique but I took over 4000 images of "Whitey" and the bird always seemed
quite serene. I haven't really post many images but if you're on Facebook
I'm sure you can find a few. 
Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as
self-policing. Just my 3 cents.
 
All the best,
Lloyd
Lloyd Spitalnik Photography
www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com
 
From: bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu
[mailto:bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Sam Stuart
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 10:19 AM
To: david speiser
Cc: NYS Birds
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get
it
 
All,
 
We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those
with.  It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and
irregular species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with
others.  This is especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial
and sedentary species that are more susceptible to disturbances.   These
species should probably be documented on eBird ( 
www.eBird.org) and the NY State Avian Records Committee (

http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list serve.  

 
Thanks,
Sam Stuart

 
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser 
wrote:
I too agree with Cindy's summation.
The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that
make it easy
not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway.
Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a
Ross' Gull shows up!
That would need to be kept secret.
 
Good birding,

David Speiser
www.lilibirds.com  
 
  _  

Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800
From: catbird...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get
it
To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
 
To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen
photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I
remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at
Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so
he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach
that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a
dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance
of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second
bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach.
However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach
passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying
overhead and away. You just can't win!
 
I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding
listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery
slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting,
or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder
(yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back
yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin
the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?
 
Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees
what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private
club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I
for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for
rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't
like birding in a 

[nysbirds-l] Croton Point 2/5

[Matthew Wills]

I'll second Joe Giuta's email about Croton Point: it was very quiet yesterday in this unseasonable mildness. We saw one mature and one juvenile Bald Eagle during the afternoon in Croton Bay. A lone juvenile Red-tailed hawk and a too quickly glimpsed falcon rounded out the raptors. We did have a little more land bird/passerine activity along the southeastern edge of the park: Mourning Dove, Carolina Wren, Golden-Crowned Kinglet, White-Breasted Nuthatch, Brown Creeper, Black-Capped Chickadee, Belted Kingfisher, Red-Bellied Woodpecker, Northern Flicker, Northern Mockingbird, Fish Crow, American Crow, House Finch, Song Sparrow, Starling. Croton Point Park is an excellent field trip for car-free NYC residents: the Metro-North express gets to the Croton-Harmon station in 43 minutes ($18 roundtrip), and the park is accessible across the bridge spanning the rail yard. Now, all we need is some ice on the river!Matthewhttp://matthewwills.com/

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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Sam Stuart]

All,

We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those
with.  It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and
irregular species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with
others.  This is especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial
and sedentary species that are more susceptible to disturbances.   These
species should probably be documented on eBird
(www.eBird.org)
and the NY State Avian Records Committee (
http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list serve.


Thanks,
Sam Stuart


On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser wrote:

>  I too agree with Cindy's summation.
> The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that
> make it easy
> not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway.
> Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when
> a Ross' Gull shows up!
> That would need to be kept secret.
>
> Good birding,
>
> David Speiser
> www.lilibirds.com
>
>  --
> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800
> From: catbird...@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't
> get it
> To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
>
>  To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen
> photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I
> remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at
> Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so
> he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the
> beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting
> on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a
> distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The
> second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the
> beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along
> the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed,
> flying overhead and away. You just can't win!
>
> I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding
> listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery
> slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting,
> or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or
> birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own
> back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off
> and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the
> bird!)?
>
> Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees
> what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private
> club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate.
> I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out
> for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually
> don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really
> well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other
> respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area
> just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird.
>
> There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless
> joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to
> the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence
> around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even
> license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's
> not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the
> occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think
> that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on
> something really special.
>
> have a great day!
> Cindy Wodinsky
> --
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RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[david speiser]

I too agree with Cindy's summation.
The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that make 
it easy
not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway.
Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a 
Ross' Gull shows up!
That would need to be kept secret.
 
Good birding,

David Speiser

www.lilibirds.com
 
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800
From: catbird...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu

To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen 
photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember 
one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a 
few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this 
beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw 
both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a 
half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe 
not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was 
sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching 
it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the 
bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead
 and away. You just can't win!

I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding 
listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst 
owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare 
bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those 
exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get 
close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for 
everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?
Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, 
turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of 
sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one 
don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, 
and am not in
 anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I 
know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for 
me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who 
might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy 
bird. 
There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless 
joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the 
photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around 
these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) 
of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while 
to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer 
an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of 
decent, good folks losing out on something really
 special. 
have a great day!Cindy Wodinsky  
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Re: [nysbirds-l] a moral compass isn't in the purchase price

[Jacob Drucker]

I think we should all solemnly swear--both birders and photographers-- to never 
ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever look or take a picture of an owl ever again. 

Jacob Drucker


On Feb 6, 2012, at 9:56 AM, Diana Teta wrote:

> The buying of photographic equipment for picture taking or the buying of 
> optics for birding does not include a code of ethics or an insertable moral 
> compass for the buyer.
> Equipment does not make a   great photographer or binoculars make an 
> excellent birder.  I have seen motivation lead to inexcusable behavior in 
> both…a birder who climbed a tree next to a boreal owl in order to get “a 
> better look” and   a photographer  who entered private property to a “better 
> picture” of the Great Grey Owl.  In each instance there were birders and 
> photographers that stayed on the road or a reasonable distance.
> In my opinion there is an increase in rudeness and irresponsibility in many 
> people of all ages.  If you take the opportunity to point out their negative 
> behavior or attitude, many get incensed and  attack back as if you are the 
> wrong doer.
> I do not believe certain birds like owls should be posted or certain rarities 
> unless they are in a much protected place like the Williamson’s Sapsucker 
> upstate.  The presence of   Owls   seem to bring out the worst in some 
> people. Yes, it restricts the list serve and the possibility for some to see 
> certain birds, but isn’t it our moral responsibility to protect the welfare 
> of the birds as there are many indications of a decline in total numbers as 
> well as potential extinction of some in certain areas of the world such as 
> the red knot. We can not control others, but we can control what we do on 
> behalf of the birds.
> Diana Teta
> Long Island, NY
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[nysbirds-l] a moral compass isn't in the purchase price

[Diana Teta]

The buying of photographic equipment for picture taking or the buying of
optics for birding does not include a code of ethics or an insertable moral
compass for the buyer.

Equipment does not make a   great photographer or binoculars make an
excellent birder.  I have seen motivation lead to inexcusable behavior in
both.a birder who climbed a tree next to a boreal owl in order to get "a
better look" and   a photographer  who entered private property to a "better
picture" of the Great Grey Owl.  In each instance there were birders and
photographers that stayed on the road or a reasonable distance.

In my opinion there is an increase in rudeness and irresponsibility in many
people of all ages.  If you take the opportunity to point out their negative
behavior or attitude, many get incensed and  attack back as if you are the
wrong doer.

I do not believe certain birds like owls should be posted or certain
rarities unless they are in a much protected place like the Williamson's
Sapsucker upstate.  The presence of   Owls   seem to bring out the worst in
some people. Yes, it restricts the list serve and the possibility for some
to see certain birds, but isn't it our moral responsibility to protect the
welfare of the birds as there are many indications of a decline in total
numbers as well as potential extinction of some in certain areas of the
world such as the red knot. We can not control others, but we can control
what we do on behalf of the birds.

Diana Teta

Long Island, NY


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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph.D.]

Well put Cindy!

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 6, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Cindy  wrote:

> To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen 
> photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember 
> one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach 
> a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see 
> this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We 
> saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at 
> least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 
> feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more 
> skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son 
> and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too 
> closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. 
> You just can't win!
> 
> I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding 
> listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery 
> slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, 
> or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder 
> (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), 
> will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the 
> experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?
> 
> Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees 
> what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club 
> of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for 
> one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for 
> rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't 
> like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. 
> Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other 
> respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just 
> to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. 
> 
> There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless 
> joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to 
> the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence 
> around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even 
> license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not 
> worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the 
> occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think 
> that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something 
> really special. 
> 
> have a great day!
> Cindy Wodinsky
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[falcon]

 DATE:  
 2/6/12 9:34 AM [ Full Screen ]  [ SIZE: 2.242KB ] 
   FROM: fal...@kidwings.com 
  TO:catbird...@yahoo.com 
 SUBJECT:Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't 
get it 

Hello All,

This is a very interesting discussion, and I enjoy reading people's differing 
opinions. I would like to throw out something a bit different.

Personally, I do not post specific locations for owls anymore after a problem 
years ago with a local Snowy Owl. I think part of the problem lies with 
websites like birdingonthe.net. These websites catalog rare sightings from all 
over the country making it far too easy for birders/photographers to pick and 
choose which birds to chase.

I would like a birding listserv to be a community of birders. People who 
participate in an on-line community with the same goal while getting to know 
each other. Everyone should know everyone else at least by name - then make 
connections when you bump into each other out in the field. Unfortunately, 
people can glean information far too easily without having to join such a 
community.

Someone mentioned how they showed some passerby's the Snowy Owls and how 
excited those people were. That may have gotten them hooked into birding, or at 
least appreciating nature more. This is far different from sharing an owl's 
location with complete strangers - the entire Internet community. We do not put 
our children's contact information out there for everyone to see - should we do 
the same with sensitive birds?

I have a feeling not many will agree with my point of view. I think birding and 
photography (which I do both) should require a little work. If you want 
information on local birds, take the time to join a listserv and actually 
participate in that listserv - not just use it for your personal gain.

Just my thoughts.

Jody Hildreth
Waterville, NY
fal...@kidwings.com
Listowner - Oneidabirds


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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Cindy]

To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen 
photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember 
one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a 
few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this 
beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw 
both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a 
half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe 
not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was 
sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching 
it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the 
bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win!


I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding 
listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst 
owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare 
bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those 
exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get 
close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for 
everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?

Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, 
turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of 
sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one 
don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, 
and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in 
a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth 
wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more 
casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any 
other noteworthy bird. 

There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless 
joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the 
photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around 
these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) 
of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while 
to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer 
an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of 
decent, good folks losing out on something really special. 

have a great day!
Cindy Wodinsky
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[nysbirds-l] Eagles- Croton

[JGIUNTA746]

Date: Feb. 5, 2012
Location: Croton, Westchester County
 
Our NYC Audubon birding group visited Croton. The lack ice and  snow 
prevented the Eagles from concentrating in any one spot.  We were able  to see 
three adult Bald Eagles fly over at the Croton RR station and one  adult fly 
over at Croton Park. Other raptors seen were Red-tailed Hawks,  Cooper's Hawk, 
Sharpshinned Hawk and Turkey Vultures. Ducks were also hard to  find but we 
did note a raft of Common Goldeneye and many Common Mergansers. Land  birds 
were not to be found.
 
At dusk we visited George's  Island and noted one immature Bald  Eagle come 
in to roost.
 
Good Birding,
Joe Giunta
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Seth Ausubel]

The opinion I voiced, to stop posting about owls, is certainly not a new one 
among birders and has been in practice for years.  It is unfortunate.  
Education will help to reduce disturbance, which is why I re-posted the ABA's 
ethics principles.  There are a number of web sites that have similar 
principles for wildlife photographers.  Here is one:  
http://www.naturephotographers.net/ethics.html

I was glad to see the Administrator of this list post about ethics a few weeks 
ago.  It was clear from the discussion about baiting owls with mice that many 
people were unaware of the potential problem of habituation, so perhaps many 
are unaware of ethical principles in general.  Or at least need reminding.  As 
Stella indicated, there are other ways than the listserv to see owls, like 
getting out and looking.  But please respect the birds and the habitat.

On Feb 6, 2012, at 8:02 AM, Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph.D. wrote:

> I’ve seen the same kind of behavior with folks trying to photograph seals and 
> getting too close, or trying to flush the, from haulout sites. Educating 
> these folks and having the MMPA as a threat goes a long way to help reduce 
> the offensive behavior.  
>  
> I thoroughly understand the pique we all feel at those who have absolutely no 
> respect for the ecosystems upon which they trod and within which they are 
> photographing, but let’s remember that these folks don’t represent the 
> majority. I think that it would be a shame to stop posting information about 
> owls, or other interesting birds/wildlife.  Perhaps one could post  the 
> general vicinity (e.g., Jones Beach, Breezy Point, etc.) within posting the 
> specifics, and your images are geotagged, perhaps you can post them with 
> minimal EXIF data embedded.  If one is interested in the specifics, they can 
> email the poster and request that info.
>  
> Artie
>  
> Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph. D.
> President,
> Coastal Research and Education Society of Long Island
> presid...@cresli.org  
> www.cresli.org
> 631-244-3352
> ( e-mails scanned for viruses before sending)
>  
>  
>  
>  
> "When the last individual of a race of living thing breathes no more,
> another heaven and another earth
> must pass before such a one can be again" ..  William Beebee
>  
> P Be kind to the environment - unless you need to, please don't print this 
> e-mail
>  
> From: bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu 
> [mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Stella Miller
> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 7:14 AM
> To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu; Gregory Fisher
> Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
>  
> To jump into the fray here:  I have personally witnessed more than just two 
> people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions, 
> up to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird, 
> approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down 
> the beach, paparazzi in tow.  I have also had reports from friends who have 
> witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. 
> 
> In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my 
> house.  Two photographers came over and started snapping away.  I asked them 
> to please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it.  
> I then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were 
> leaving.  As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to the owl, and 
> heard their car horn go off several times.  I cannot confirm, but it seemed 
> as though they were trying to prompt the owl into opening its eyes.  To their 
> credit they did not approach closely, or stay long and did leave after 1/2 an 
> hour.  
> 
> It is not just two guys, unfortunately there seems to be a growing rash of 
> unethical behavior occurring, with boundaries being crossed that should not 
> be.  I agree with Seth, owls should not be listed on the listserv.  Word of 
> mouth has worked wonderfully in the past, in fact, I only joined the listserv 
> a year or so ago and managed to hear about any and all owls that were being 
> seen.  
> 
> Stella Miller
> President
> Huntington-Oyster Bay Audubon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Conservation is sometimes perceived as stopping everything cold, as holding 
> whooping cranes in higher esteem than people. It is up to science to spread 
> the understanding that the choice is not between wild places or people, it is 
> between a rich or an impoverished existence for Man." Thomas Lovejoy
> 
> --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Gregory Fisher  wrote:
> 
> From: Gregory Fisher 
> Subject: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
> To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
> Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 6:19 AM
> 
> All,
> 
>   I am a photographer and am very respectful of wildlife and the birding 
> ethic rules.  In no way do I want to bring harm or stress any wildlife 
> including snowy owls.  The opportunity 

RE:[nysbirds-l] nysbirds-l digest: February 05, 2012

[Meena Haribal]

Hi all,

It is great idea to post videos of bad behaviors of birders/photographers :) I 
would love to take videos of bad behaviors of birders too, especially when 
playback is involved too. (I am being sarcastic here). How about when 60 people 
show up in someone's yard to see that rare bird? Does ABA code has anything 
about it? At this point it seems it is appropriate behavior for most birders.



I agree with this part Matt Bango's e-mail.



I think that it is a bit unfair to single out

photographers as problem individuals when both birders and other

individuals in the field for other reasons are equally as problematic. If

any of the photographers identified earlier are reading this thread -

simply bird (and photograph) ethically and these issues won't come about.



Enjoy birds and let them enjoy their life too.



Meena







12. Re: Photographer problem at Breezy Point

13. Re: Photographer problem at Breezy Point

14. Re: Photographer problem at Breezy Point

15. Re: Photographer problem at Breezy Point

16. Re: Photographer problem at Breezy Point

17. California Gull, 5,700 Snow Geese in Niagara/Orleans Co - 5 Feb

18. Montauk- Lark Sparrow

19. Re: Photographer problem at Breezy Point



--



--



Subject: Re: Photographer problem at Breezy Point

From: Matt Bango 

Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 22:19:09 -0500

X-Message-Number: 15



I think that it is a bit unfair to single out

photographers as problem individuals when both birders and other

individuals in the field for other reasons are equally as problematic. If

any of the photographers identified earlier are reading this thread -

simply bird (and photograph) ethically and these issues won't come about.



Also, thank you to the original poster of the Breezy Point owls as it was

one of my most memorable sightings as a birder in NYC.



Best,

Matt









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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Bkbirdr]

I have been trying to avoid jumping in on this but feel I must. As a  
birder, and photographer, I also find the vilifying of bird photographers a  
disturbing and personally offensive trend. There is no doubt that some  
photographers do things that are not within ethical bounds. In fact I was there 
 at 
Breezy yesterday--at the same time as Phil Jeffrey--and saw that first  
offending photographer flush the bird from the dunes. And in fact, one of my  
party chastised the guy. I was on the same dune as Phil (although I didn't  
know it at the time!) and I could see immediately that I was not going to get  
any decent shot of this bird. Oh well--I was resigned. (As it turned  out, 
we later walked down around the jetty and lo and behold, one owl was  right 
on the top of the dune in front of me, so in the end I did get a  decent 
shot, without having to enter the dunes or encroach on the bird.  But now, I 
would be reluctant to post it for fear of being  questioned/harassed about it. 
This is a sorry state of affairs.)
 
But I have also seen birders doing equally inappropriate things--tromping  
through undergrowth to flush a bird, trespassing on private property, using  
tapes inappropriately, etc etc. There are jerks in every group. What we 
need to  focus is on educating these people--photographers and birders 
alike--on  appropriate, ethical behavior around owls and other birds. 
 
What bothers me is that witholding owl sightings because of this knee-jerk  
reaction to photographers punishes the many ethically-abiding 
photographers, and  birders, and especially neophytes. How many have seen their 
life owls 
because of  this list, and others like it? How many this season have seen 
their life Snowy  Owl, and been forever changed by their magnificence? Just 
yesterday at Breezy we  showed the owl to several beginning birders--and 
non-birders--through our scope,  and they were awed. I doubt those birders 
would 
have been there if not for the  lists.
 
Without posting, only the elite birders--those "in the know" or in that  
"inner circle" of NY birders--get the opportunity to see these  fantastic 
birds. And that would be a great loss.
 
Janet  Zinn
Brooklyn, NY 
_www.janetzinnphotography.com_ (http://www.janetzinnphotography.com/) 


In a message dated 2/6/2012 8:03:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
kopel...@optonline.net writes:

 
I’ve  seen the same kind of behavior with folks trying to photograph seals 
and  getting too close, or trying to flush the, from haulout sites. 
Educating these  folks and having the MMPA as a threat goes a long way to help 
reduce the  offensive behavior.   
I  thoroughly understand the pique we all feel at those who have absolutely 
no  respect for the ecosystems upon which they trod and within which they 
are  photographing, but let’s remember that these folks don’t represent the  
majority. I think that it would be a shame to stop posting information 
about  owls, or other interesting birds/wildlife.  Perhaps one could post   the 
general vicinity (e.g., Jones Beach, Breezy Point, etc.) within posting  the 
specifics, and your images are geotagged, perhaps you can post them with  
minimal EXIF data embedded.  If one is interested in the specifics, they  can 
email the poster and request that info.  
Artie   
Arthur  H. Kopelman, Ph. D.
President, 
Coastal  Research and Education Society of Long Island
_president@cresli.org_ (mailto:presid...@cresli.org)
_www.cresli.org
_ (http://www.cresli.org/) 631-244-3352 
(  e-mails scanned for viruses before sending)  




"When  the last individual of a race of living thing breathes no  more, 
another  heaven and another earth 
must  pass before such a one can be again" ..  William  Beebee 
P  Be  kind to the environment - unless you need to, please don't print 
this  e-mail 
From:  bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu  
[mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Stella  Miller
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 7:14 AM
To:  nysbirds-l@cornell.edu; Gregory Fisher
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l]  Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't 
get it 
 
To jump  into the fray here:  I have personally witnessed more than  just 
two people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on  several 
occasions, up to four or five photographers at a time  deliberately flushing 
the 
bird, approaching it too closely,  causing the bird to have to continually 
fly down the beach,  paparazzi in tow.  I have also had reports from friends 
who  have witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago.  

In another example, just yesterday I was observing a  screech owl near my 
house.  Two photographers came over and  started snapping away.  I asked them 
to please be respectful  of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb 
it.  I then  pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they 
were  leaving.  As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to  the owl, 
and heard their car 

Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Phil Jeffrey]

The usual line is that it is just "two bad apples".  Since I spend a
fair amount of my birding time photographing, I've seen a lot of
photographers.  The number of bad apples is more in the range twenty
to forty.  (Think: in the course of one day two of us we documented 3
of them - how many more went undocumented ?).  In the case of Snowy
Owls I'd expect about 1/4 of the photographers to be wandering the
dunes.  Owls in particular reward bad behavior with better
photographs.

Or should I cite the case of the NY photographer who visited a local
birding spot and was apparently taping in the breeding Kentucky
Warblers for a better shot ?

There are lots of examples of this because there are lots of people
doing it, not just two.  While it is still the minority it's quite a
significant minority, and therefore a quite a significant problem for
sedentary wintering birds and breeding birds.

Phil Jeffrey

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RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph.D.]

I've seen the same kind of behavior with folks trying to photograph seals
and getting too close, or trying to flush the, from haulout sites. Educating
these folks and having the MMPA as a threat goes a long way to help reduce
the offensive behavior.  

 

I thoroughly understand the pique we all feel at those who have absolutely
no respect for the ecosystems upon which they trod and within which they are
photographing, but let's remember that these folks don't represent the
majority. I think that it would be a shame to stop posting information about
owls, or other interesting birds/wildlife.  Perhaps one could post  the
general vicinity (e.g., Jones Beach, Breezy Point, etc.) within posting the
specifics, and your images are geotagged, perhaps you can post them with
minimal EXIF data embedded.  If one is interested in the specifics, they can
email the poster and request that info. 

 

Artie 

 


Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph. D.
President,

Coastal Research and Education Society of Long Island
  presid...@cresli.org  
  www.cresli.org
631-244-3352

( e-mails scanned for viruses before sending)

 

 

 

 

"When the last individual of a race of living thing breathes no more,

another heaven and another earth

must pass before such a one can be again" ..  William Beebee

 

P Be kind to the environment - unless you need to, please don't print this
e-mail

 

From: bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu
[mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Stella Miller
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 7:14 AM
To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu; Gregory Fisher
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get
it

 



To jump into the fray here:  I have personally witnessed more than just two
people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions,
up to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird,
approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down
the beach, paparazzi in tow.  I have also had reports from friends who have
witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. 

In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my
house.  Two photographers came over and started snapping away.  I asked them
to please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it.
I then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were
leaving.  As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to the owl, and
heard their car horn go off several times.  I cannot confirm, but it seemed
as though they were trying to prompt the owl into opening its eyes.  To
their credit they did not approach closely, or stay long and did leave after
1/2 an hour.  

It is not just two guys, unfortunately there seems to be a growing rash of
unethical behavior occurring, with boundaries being crossed that should not
be.  I agree with Seth, owls should not be listed on the listserv.  Word of
mouth has worked wonderfully in the past, in fact, I only joined the
listserv a year or so ago and managed to hear about any and all owls that
were being seen.  

Stella Miller
President
Huntington-Oyster Bay Audubon




"Conservation is sometimes perceived as stopping everything cold, as holding
whooping cranes in higher esteem than people. It is up to science to spread
the understanding that the choice is not between wild places or people, it
is between a rich or an impoverished existence for Man." Thomas Lovejoy

--- On Mon, 2/6/12, Gregory Fisher  wrote:


From: Gregory Fisher 
Subject: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 6:19 AM

All,

  I am a photographer and am very respectful of wildlife and the birding
ethic rules.  In no way do I want to bring harm or stress any wildlife
including snowy owls.  The opportunity to be able to see these magnificant
birds this winter is an awesome one.  The birding list have been an awesome
resource in order to see not only snowy owls but other species as well.
Just because there were 2 bad apples some people who think they are above
everyone else trashes photographers in general.  Then we have frequent
birders say they are no longer going to post specific locations, which in my
mind means people will have to look harder and possibly flush out bird
looking instead of understand where they are and staying a good distance
away to observe.  Then we have others that say they will no longer post at
all.  If this is the case why not just band this whole concept of the
birding list and we can all go back to the stone age.  I understand the
problem with a select few but come on people grow up and handle the
situation responsibly.

Greg

--

NYSbirds-L List Info:
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Stella Miller]

To jump into the fray here:  I have personally witnessed more than just two 
people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions, up 
to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird, 
approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down 
the beach, paparazzi in tow.  I have also had reports from friends who have 
witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. 

In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my 
house.  Two photographers came over and started snapping away.  I asked them to 
please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it.  I 
then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were 
leaving.  As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to the owl, and heard 
their car horn go off several times.  I cannot confirm, but it seemed as though 
they were trying to prompt the owl into opening its eyes.  To their credit they 
did not approach closely, or stay long and did leave after 1/2 an hour.  

It is not just two guys, unfortunately there seems to be a growing rash of 
unethical behavior occurring, with boundaries being crossed that should not 
be.  I agree with Seth, owls should not be listed on the listserv.  Word of 
mouth has worked wonderfully in the past, in fact, I only joined the listserv a 
year or so ago and managed to hear about any and all owls that were being 
seen.  

Stella Miller
President
Huntington-Oyster Bay Audubon




"Conservation is sometimes perceived as stopping everything cold, as holding 
whooping cranes in higher esteem than people. It is up to science to spread the 
understanding that the choice is not between wild places or people, it is 
between a rich or an impoverished existence for Man." Thomas Lovejoy

--- On
 Mon, 2/6/12, Gregory Fisher  wrote:

From: Gregory Fisher 
Subject: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 6:19 AM

All,

  I am a photographer and am very respectful of wildlife and the birding ethic 
rules.  In no way do I want to bring harm or stress any wildlife including 
snowy owls.  The opportunity to be able to see these magnificant birds this 
winter is an awesome one.  The birding list have been an awesome resource in 
order to see not only snowy owls but other species as well.  Just because there 
were 2 bad apples some people who think they are above everyone else trashes 
photographers in general.  Then
 we have frequent birders say they are no longer going to post specific 
locations, which in my mind means people will have to look harder and possibly 
flush out bird looking instead of understand where they are and staying a good 
distance away to observe.  Then we have others that say they will no longer 
post at all.  If this is the case why not just band this whole concept of the 
birding list and we can all go back to the stone age.  I understand the problem 
with a select few but come on people grow up and handle the situation 
responsibly.

Greg

--

NYSbirds-L List Info:
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

ARCHIVES:
1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L
3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html

Please submit your observations to eBird:
http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

--


--

NYSbirds-L List Info:
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

ARCHIVES:
1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L
3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html

Please submit your observations to eBird:
http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

--

[nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Gregory Fisher]

All,

  I am a photographer and am very respectful of wildlife and the birding ethic 
rules.  In no way do I want to bring harm or stress any wildlife including 
snowy owls.  The opportunity to be able to see these magnificant birds this 
winter is an awesome one.  The birding list have been an awesome resource in 
order to see not only snowy owls but other species as well.  Just because there 
were 2 bad apples some people who think they are above everyone else trashes 
photographers in general.  Then we have frequent birders say they are no longer 
going to post specific locations, which in my mind means people will have to 
look harder and possibly flush out bird looking instead of understand where 
they are and staying a good distance away to observe.  Then we have others that 
say they will no longer post at all.  If this is the case why not just band 
this whole concept of the birding list and we can all go back to the stone age. 
 I understand the problem with a select few but come on people grow up and 
handle the situation responsibly.

Greg

--

NYSbirds-L List Info:
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

ARCHIVES:
1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L
3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html

Please submit your observations to eBird:
http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

--

[nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Gregory Fisher]

All,

  I am a photographer and am very respectful of wildlife and the birding ethic 
rules.  In no way do I want to bring harm or stress any wildlife including 
snowy owls.  The opportunity to be able to see these magnificant birds this 
winter is an awesome one.  The birding list have been an awesome resource in 
order to see not only snowy owls but other species as well.  Just because there 
were 2 bad apples some people who think they are above everyone else trashes 
photographers in general.  Then we have frequent birders say they are no longer 
going to post specific locations, which in my mind means people will have to 
look harder and possibly flush out bird looking instead of understand where 
they are and staying a good distance away to observe.  Then we have others that 
say they will no longer post at all.  If this is the case why not just band 
this whole concept of the birding list and we can all go back to the stone age. 
 I understand the problem with a select few but come on people grow up and 
handle the situation responsibly.

Greg

--

NYSbirds-L List Info:
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

ARCHIVES:
1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L
3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html

Please submit your observations to eBird:
http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

--

Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Stella Miller]

To jump into the fray here:  I have personally witnessed more than just two 
people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions, up 
to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird, 
approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down 
the beach, paparazzi in tow.  I have also had reports from friends who have 
witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. 

In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my 
house.  Two photographers came over and started snapping away.  I asked them to 
please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it.  I 
then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were 
leaving.  As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to the owl, and heard 
their car horn go off several times.  I cannot confirm, but it seemed as though 
they were trying to prompt the owl into opening its eyes.  To their credit they 
did not approach closely, or stay long and did leave after 1/2 an hour.  

It is not just two guys, unfortunately there seems to be a growing rash of 
unethical behavior occurring, with boundaries being crossed that should not 
be.  I agree with Seth, owls should not be listed on the listserv.  Word of 
mouth has worked wonderfully in the past, in fact, I only joined the listserv a 
year or so ago and managed to hear about any and all owls that were being 
seen.  

Stella Miller
President
Huntington-Oyster Bay Audubon




Conservation is sometimes perceived as stopping everything cold, as holding 
whooping cranes in higher esteem than people. It is up to science to spread the 
understanding that the choice is not between wild places or people, it is 
between a rich or an impoverished existence for Man. Thomas Lovejoy

--- On
 Mon, 2/6/12, Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com wrote:

From: Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com
Subject: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 6:19 AM

All,

  I am a photographer and am very respectful of wildlife and the birding ethic 
rules.  In no way do I want to bring harm or stress any wildlife including 
snowy owls.  The opportunity to be able to see these magnificant birds this 
winter is an awesome one.  The birding list have been an awesome resource in 
order to see not only snowy owls but other species as well.  Just because there 
were 2 bad apples some people who think they are above everyone else trashes 
photographers in general.  Then
 we have frequent birders say they are no longer going to post specific 
locations, which in my mind means people will have to look harder and possibly 
flush out bird looking instead of understand where they are and staying a good 
distance away to observe.  Then we have others that say they will no longer 
post at all.  If this is the case why not just band this whole concept of the 
birding list and we can all go back to the stone age.  I understand the problem 
with a select few but come on people grow up and handle the situation 
responsibly.

Greg

--

NYSbirds-L List Info:
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

ARCHIVES:
1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L
3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html

Please submit your observations to eBird:
http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

--


--

NYSbirds-L List Info:
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

ARCHIVES:
1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L
3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html

Please submit your observations to eBird:
http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

--

RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph.D.]

I've seen the same kind of behavior with folks trying to photograph seals
and getting too close, or trying to flush the, from haulout sites. Educating
these folks and having the MMPA as a threat goes a long way to help reduce
the offensive behavior.  

 

I thoroughly understand the pique we all feel at those who have absolutely
no respect for the ecosystems upon which they trod and within which they are
photographing, but let's remember that these folks don't represent the
majority. I think that it would be a shame to stop posting information about
owls, or other interesting birds/wildlife.  Perhaps one could post  the
general vicinity (e.g., Jones Beach, Breezy Point, etc.) within posting the
specifics, and your images are geotagged, perhaps you can post them with
minimal EXIF data embedded.  If one is interested in the specifics, they can
email the poster and request that info. 

 

Artie 

 


Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph. D.
President,

Coastal Research and Education Society of Long Island
 mailto:presid...@cresli.org presid...@cresli.org  
 http://www.cresli.org/ www.cresli.org
631-244-3352

( e-mails scanned for viruses before sending)

 

 

 

 

When the last individual of a race of living thing breathes no more,

another heaven and another earth

must pass before such a one can be again ..  William Beebee

 

P Be kind to the environment - unless you need to, please don't print this
e-mail

 

From: bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu
[mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Stella Miller
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 7:14 AM
To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu; Gregory Fisher
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get
it

 



To jump into the fray here:  I have personally witnessed more than just two
people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions,
up to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird,
approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down
the beach, paparazzi in tow.  I have also had reports from friends who have
witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. 

In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my
house.  Two photographers came over and started snapping away.  I asked them
to please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it.
I then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were
leaving.  As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to the owl, and
heard their car horn go off several times.  I cannot confirm, but it seemed
as though they were trying to prompt the owl into opening its eyes.  To
their credit they did not approach closely, or stay long and did leave after
1/2 an hour.  

It is not just two guys, unfortunately there seems to be a growing rash of
unethical behavior occurring, with boundaries being crossed that should not
be.  I agree with Seth, owls should not be listed on the listserv.  Word of
mouth has worked wonderfully in the past, in fact, I only joined the
listserv a year or so ago and managed to hear about any and all owls that
were being seen.  

Stella Miller
President
Huntington-Oyster Bay Audubon




Conservation is sometimes perceived as stopping everything cold, as holding
whooping cranes in higher esteem than people. It is up to science to spread
the understanding that the choice is not between wild places or people, it
is between a rich or an impoverished existence for Man. Thomas Lovejoy

--- On Mon, 2/6/12, Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com wrote:


From: Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com
Subject: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 6:19 AM

All,

  I am a photographer and am very respectful of wildlife and the birding
ethic rules.  In no way do I want to bring harm or stress any wildlife
including snowy owls.  The opportunity to be able to see these magnificant
birds this winter is an awesome one.  The birding list have been an awesome
resource in order to see not only snowy owls but other species as well.
Just because there were 2 bad apples some people who think they are above
everyone else trashes photographers in general.  Then we have frequent
birders say they are no longer going to post specific locations, which in my
mind means people will have to look harder and possibly flush out bird
looking instead of understand where they are and staying a good distance
away to observe.  Then we have others that say they will no longer post at
all.  If this is the case why not just band this whole concept of the
birding list and we can all go back to the stone age.  I understand the
problem with a select few but come on people grow up and handle the
situation responsibly.

Greg

--

NYSbirds-L List Info:
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES

Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Phil Jeffrey]

The usual line is that it is just two bad apples.  Since I spend a
fair amount of my birding time photographing, I've seen a lot of
photographers.  The number of bad apples is more in the range twenty
to forty.  (Think: in the course of one day two of us we documented 3
of them - how many more went undocumented ?).  In the case of Snowy
Owls I'd expect about 1/4 of the photographers to be wandering the
dunes.  Owls in particular reward bad behavior with better
photographs.

Or should I cite the case of the NY photographer who visited a local
birding spot and was apparently taping in the breeding Kentucky
Warblers for a better shot ?

There are lots of examples of this because there are lots of people
doing it, not just two.  While it is still the minority it's quite a
significant minority, and therefore a quite a significant problem for
sedentary wintering birds and breeding birds.

Phil Jeffrey

--

NYSbirds-L List Info:
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES
http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm

ARCHIVES:
1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html
2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L
3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html

Please submit your observations to eBird:
http://ebird.org/content/ebird/

--

Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Bkbirdr]

I have been trying to avoid jumping in on this but feel I must. As a  
birder, and photographer, I also find the vilifying of bird photographers a  
disturbing and personally offensive trend. There is no doubt that some  
photographers do things that are not within ethical bounds. In fact I was there 
 at 
Breezy yesterday--at the same time as Phil Jeffrey--and saw that first  
offending photographer flush the bird from the dunes. And in fact, one of my  
party chastised the guy. I was on the same dune as Phil (although I didn't  
know it at the time!) and I could see immediately that I was not going to get  
any decent shot of this bird. Oh well--I was resigned. (As it turned  out, 
we later walked down around the jetty and lo and behold, one owl was  right 
on the top of the dune in front of me, so in the end I did get a  decent 
shot, without having to enter the dunes or encroach on the bird.  But now, I 
would be reluctant to post it for fear of being  questioned/harassed about it. 
This is a sorry state of affairs.)
 
But I have also seen birders doing equally inappropriate things--tromping  
through undergrowth to flush a bird, trespassing on private property, using  
tapes inappropriately, etc etc. There are jerks in every group. What we 
need to  focus is on educating these people--photographers and birders 
alike--on  appropriate, ethical behavior around owls and other birds. 
 
What bothers me is that witholding owl sightings because of this knee-jerk  
reaction to photographers punishes the many ethically-abiding 
photographers, and  birders, and especially neophytes. How many have seen their 
life owls 
because of  this list, and others like it? How many this season have seen 
their life Snowy  Owl, and been forever changed by their magnificence? Just 
yesterday at Breezy we  showed the owl to several beginning birders--and 
non-birders--through our scope,  and they were awed. I doubt those birders 
would 
have been there if not for the  lists.
 
Without posting, only the elite birders--those in the know or in that  
inner circle of NY birders--get the opportunity to see these  fantastic 
birds. And that would be a great loss.
 
Janet  Zinn
Brooklyn, NY 
_www.janetzinnphotography.com_ (http://www.janetzinnphotography.com/) 


In a message dated 2/6/2012 8:03:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
kopel...@optonline.net writes:

 
I’ve  seen the same kind of behavior with folks trying to photograph seals 
and  getting too close, or trying to flush the, from haulout sites. 
Educating these  folks and having the MMPA as a threat goes a long way to help 
reduce the  offensive behavior.   
I  thoroughly understand the pique we all feel at those who have absolutely 
no  respect for the ecosystems upon which they trod and within which they 
are  photographing, but let’s remember that these folks don’t represent the  
majority. I think that it would be a shame to stop posting information 
about  owls, or other interesting birds/wildlife.  Perhaps one could post   the 
general vicinity (e.g., Jones Beach, Breezy Point, etc.) within posting  the 
specifics, and your images are geotagged, perhaps you can post them with  
minimal EXIF data embedded.  If one is interested in the specifics, they  can 
email the poster and request that info.  
Artie   
Arthur  H. Kopelman, Ph. D.
President, 
Coastal  Research and Education Society of Long Island
_president@cresli.org_ (mailto:presid...@cresli.org)
_www.cresli.org
_ (http://www.cresli.org/) 631-244-3352 
(  e-mails scanned for viruses before sending)  




When  the last individual of a race of living thing breathes no  more, 
another  heaven and another earth 
must  pass before such a one can be again ..  William  Beebee 
P  Be  kind to the environment - unless you need to, please don't print 
this  e-mail 
From:  bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu  
[mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Stella  Miller
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 7:14 AM
To:  nysbirds-l@cornell.edu; Gregory Fisher
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l]  Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't 
get it 
 
To jump  into the fray here:  I have personally witnessed more than  just 
two people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on  several 
occasions, up to four or five photographers at a time  deliberately flushing 
the 
bird, approaching it too closely,  causing the bird to have to continually 
fly down the beach,  paparazzi in tow.  I have also had reports from friends 
who  have witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago.  

In another example, just yesterday I was observing a  screech owl near my 
house.  Two photographers came over and  started snapping away.  I asked them 
to please be respectful  of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb 
it.  I then  pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they 
were  leaving.  As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to  the owl, 
and heard their car horn 

Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Seth Ausubel]

The opinion I voiced, to stop posting about owls, is certainly not a new one 
among birders and has been in practice for years.  It is unfortunate.  
Education will help to reduce disturbance, which is why I re-posted the ABA's 
ethics principles.  There are a number of web sites that have similar 
principles for wildlife photographers.  Here is one:  
http://www.naturephotographers.net/ethics.html

I was glad to see the Administrator of this list post about ethics a few weeks 
ago.  It was clear from the discussion about baiting owls with mice that many 
people were unaware of the potential problem of habituation, so perhaps many 
are unaware of ethical principles in general.  Or at least need reminding.  As 
Stella indicated, there are other ways than the listserv to see owls, like 
getting out and looking.  But please respect the birds and the habitat.

On Feb 6, 2012, at 8:02 AM, Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph.D. wrote:

 I’ve seen the same kind of behavior with folks trying to photograph seals and 
 getting too close, or trying to flush the, from haulout sites. Educating 
 these folks and having the MMPA as a threat goes a long way to help reduce 
 the offensive behavior.  
  
 I thoroughly understand the pique we all feel at those who have absolutely no 
 respect for the ecosystems upon which they trod and within which they are 
 photographing, but let’s remember that these folks don’t represent the 
 majority. I think that it would be a shame to stop posting information about 
 owls, or other interesting birds/wildlife.  Perhaps one could post  the 
 general vicinity (e.g., Jones Beach, Breezy Point, etc.) within posting the 
 specifics, and your images are geotagged, perhaps you can post them with 
 minimal EXIF data embedded.  If one is interested in the specifics, they can 
 email the poster and request that info.
  
 Artie
  
 Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph. D.
 President,
 Coastal Research and Education Society of Long Island
 presid...@cresli.org  
 www.cresli.org
 631-244-3352
 ( e-mails scanned for viruses before sending)
  
  
  
  
 When the last individual of a race of living thing breathes no more,
 another heaven and another earth
 must pass before such a one can be again ..  William Beebee
  
 P Be kind to the environment - unless you need to, please don't print this 
 e-mail
  
 From: bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu 
 [mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Stella Miller
 Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 7:14 AM
 To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu; Gregory Fisher
 Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
  
 To jump into the fray here:  I have personally witnessed more than just two 
 people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions, 
 up to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird, 
 approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down 
 the beach, paparazzi in tow.  I have also had reports from friends who have 
 witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. 
 
 In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my 
 house.  Two photographers came over and started snapping away.  I asked them 
 to please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it.  
 I then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were 
 leaving.  As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to the owl, and 
 heard their car horn go off several times.  I cannot confirm, but it seemed 
 as though they were trying to prompt the owl into opening its eyes.  To their 
 credit they did not approach closely, or stay long and did leave after 1/2 an 
 hour.  
 
 It is not just two guys, unfortunately there seems to be a growing rash of 
 unethical behavior occurring, with boundaries being crossed that should not 
 be.  I agree with Seth, owls should not be listed on the listserv.  Word of 
 mouth has worked wonderfully in the past, in fact, I only joined the listserv 
 a year or so ago and managed to hear about any and all owls that were being 
 seen.  
 
 Stella Miller
 President
 Huntington-Oyster Bay Audubon
 
 
 
 
 Conservation is sometimes perceived as stopping everything cold, as holding 
 whooping cranes in higher esteem than people. It is up to science to spread 
 the understanding that the choice is not between wild places or people, it is 
 between a rich or an impoverished existence for Man. Thomas Lovejoy
 
 --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com wrote:
 
 From: Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com
 Subject: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
 To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
 Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 6:19 AM
 
 All,
 
   I am a photographer and am very respectful of wildlife and the birding 
 ethic rules.  In no way do I want to bring harm or stress any wildlife 
 including snowy owls.  The opportunity to be able to see these magnificant 
 

[nysbirds-l] Eagles- Croton

[JGIUNTA746]

Date: Feb. 5, 2012
Location: Croton, Westchester County
 
Our NYC Audubon birding group visited Croton. The lack ice and  snow 
prevented the Eagles from concentrating in any one spot.  We were able  to see 
three adult Bald Eagles fly over at the Croton RR station and one  adult fly 
over at Croton Park. Other raptors seen were Red-tailed Hawks,  Cooper's Hawk, 
Sharpshinned Hawk and Turkey Vultures. Ducks were also hard to  find but we 
did note a raft of Common Goldeneye and many Common Mergansers. Land  birds 
were not to be found.
 
At dusk we visited George's  Island and noted one immature Bald  Eagle come 
in to roost.
 
Good Birding,
Joe Giunta
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Cindy]

To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen 
photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember 
one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a 
few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this 
beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw 
both of them!). The first, poster bird was sitting on a dune, with at least a 
half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe 
not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was 
sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching 
it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the 
bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win!


I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding 
listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst 
owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare 
bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those 
exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get 
close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for 
everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?

Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees what, 
turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of 
sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for one 
don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, 
and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in 
a crowd. I know a few key people but nobody really well. Word of mouth 
wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more 
casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any 
other noteworthy bird. 

There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless 
joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the 
photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around 
these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) 
of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while 
to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer 
an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of 
decent, good folks losing out on something really special. 

have a great day!
Cindy Wodinsky
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[falcon]

 DATE:  
 2/6/12 9:34 AM [ Full Screen ]  [ SIZE: 2.242KB ] 
   FROM: fal...@kidwings.com 
  TO:catbird...@yahoo.com 
 SUBJECT:Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't 
get it 

Hello All,

This is a very interesting discussion, and I enjoy reading people's differing 
opinions. I would like to throw out something a bit different.

Personally, I do not post specific locations for owls anymore after a problem 
years ago with a local Snowy Owl. I think part of the problem lies with 
websites like birdingonthe.net. These websites catalog rare sightings from all 
over the country making it far too easy for birders/photographers to pick and 
choose which birds to chase.

I would like a birding listserv to be a community of birders. People who 
participate in an on-line community with the same goal while getting to know 
each other. Everyone should know everyone else at least by name - then make 
connections when you bump into each other out in the field. Unfortunately, 
people can glean information far too easily without having to join such a 
community.

Someone mentioned how they showed some passerby's the Snowy Owls and how 
excited those people were. That may have gotten them hooked into birding, or at 
least appreciating nature more. This is far different from sharing an owl's 
location with complete strangers - the entire Internet community. We do not put 
our children's contact information out there for everyone to see - should we do 
the same with sensitive birds?

I have a feeling not many will agree with my point of view. I think birding and 
photography (which I do both) should require a little work. If you want 
information on local birds, take the time to join a listserv and actually 
participate in that listserv - not just use it for your personal gain.

Just my thoughts.

Jody Hildreth
Waterville, NY
fal...@kidwings.com
Listowner - Oneidabirds


#9650; Top

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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph.D.]

Well put Cindy!

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 6, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Cindy catbird...@yahoo.com wrote:

 To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen 
 photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember 
 one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach 
 a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see 
 this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We 
 saw both of them!). The first, poster bird was sitting on a dune, with at 
 least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 
 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more 
 skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son 
 and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too 
 closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. 
 You just can't win!
 
 I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding 
 listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery 
 slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, 
 or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder 
 (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), 
 will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the 
 experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?
 
 Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees 
 what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club 
 of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for 
 one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for 
 rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't 
 like birding in a crowd. I know a few key people but nobody really well. 
 Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other 
 respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just 
 to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. 
 
 There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless 
 joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to 
 the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence 
 around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even 
 license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not 
 worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the 
 occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think 
 that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something 
 really special. 
 
 have a great day!
 Cindy Wodinsky
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[nysbirds-l] a moral compass isn't in the purchase price

[Diana Teta]

The buying of photographic equipment for picture taking or the buying of
optics for birding does not include a code of ethics or an insertable moral
compass for the buyer.

Equipment does not make a   great photographer or binoculars make an
excellent birder.  I have seen motivation lead to inexcusable behavior in
both.a birder who climbed a tree next to a boreal owl in order to get a
better look and   a photographer  who entered private property to a better
picture of the Great Grey Owl.  In each instance there were birders and
photographers that stayed on the road or a reasonable distance.

In my opinion there is an increase in rudeness and irresponsibility in many
people of all ages.  If you take the opportunity to point out their negative
behavior or attitude, many get incensed and  attack back as if you are the
wrong doer.

I do not believe certain birds like owls should be posted or certain
rarities unless they are in a much protected place like the Williamson's
Sapsucker upstate.  The presence of   Owls   seem to bring out the worst in
some people. Yes, it restricts the list serve and the possibility for some
to see certain birds, but isn't it our moral responsibility to protect the
welfare of the birds as there are many indications of a decline in total
numbers as well as potential extinction of some in certain areas of the
world such as the red knot. We can not control others, but we can control
what we do on behalf of the birds.

Diana Teta

Long Island, NY


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Re: [nysbirds-l] a moral compass isn't in the purchase price

[Jacob Drucker]

I think we should all solemnly swear--both birders and photographers-- to never 
ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever look or take a picture of an owl ever again. 

Jacob Drucker


On Feb 6, 2012, at 9:56 AM, Diana Teta wrote:

 The buying of photographic equipment for picture taking or the buying of 
 optics for birding does not include a code of ethics or an insertable moral 
 compass for the buyer.
 Equipment does not make a   great photographer or binoculars make an 
 excellent birder.  I have seen motivation lead to inexcusable behavior in 
 both…a birder who climbed a tree next to a boreal owl in order to get “a 
 better look” and   a photographer  who entered private property to a “better 
 picture” of the Great Grey Owl.  In each instance there were birders and 
 photographers that stayed on the road or a reasonable distance.
 In my opinion there is an increase in rudeness and irresponsibility in many 
 people of all ages.  If you take the opportunity to point out their negative 
 behavior or attitude, many get incensed and  attack back as if you are the 
 wrong doer.
 I do not believe certain birds like owls should be posted or certain rarities 
 unless they are in a much protected place like the Williamson’s Sapsucker 
 upstate.  The presence of   Owls   seem to bring out the worst in some 
 people. Yes, it restricts the list serve and the possibility for some to see 
 certain birds, but isn’t it our moral responsibility to protect the welfare 
 of the birds as there are many indications of a decline in total numbers as 
 well as potential extinction of some in certain areas of the world such as 
 the red knot. We can not control others, but we can control what we do on 
 behalf of the birds.
 Diana Teta
 Long Island, NY
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RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[david speiser]

I too agree with Cindy's summation.
The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that make 
it easy
not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway.
Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a 
Ross' Gull shows up!
That would need to be kept secret.
 
Good birding,

David Speiser

www.lilibirds.com
 
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800
From: catbird...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu

To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen 
photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember 
one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a 
few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this 
beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw 
both of them!). The first, poster bird was sitting on a dune, with at least a 
half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe 
not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was 
sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching 
it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the 
bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead
 and away. You just can't win!

I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding 
listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst 
owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare 
bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those 
exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get 
close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for 
everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?
Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees what, 
turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of 
sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for one 
don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, 
and am not in
 anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I 
know a few key people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for 
me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who 
might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy 
bird. 
There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless 
joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the 
photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around 
these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) 
of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while 
to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer 
an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of 
decent, good folks losing out on something really
 special. 
have a great day!Cindy Wodinsky  
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Sam Stuart]

All,

We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those
with.  It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and
irregular species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with
others.  This is especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial
and sedentary species that are more susceptible to disturbances.   These
species should probably be documented on eBird
(www.eBird.orghttp://www.ebird.org/)
and the NY State Avian Records Committee (
http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list serve.


Thanks,
Sam Stuart


On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser david_spei...@hotmail.comwrote:

  I too agree with Cindy's summation.
 The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that
 make it easy
 not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway.
 Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when
 a Ross' Gull shows up!
 That would need to be kept secret.

 Good birding,

 David Speiser
 www.lilibirds.com

  --
 Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800
 From: catbird...@yahoo.com
 Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't
 get it
 To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu

  To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen
 photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I
 remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at
 Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so
 he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the
 beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, poster bird was sitting
 on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a
 distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The
 second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the
 beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along
 the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed,
 flying overhead and away. You just can't win!

 I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding
 listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery
 slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting,
 or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or
 birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own
 back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off
 and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the
 bird!)?

 Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees
 what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private
 club of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate.
 I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out
 for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually
 don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few key people but nobody really
 well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other
 respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area
 just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird.

 There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless
 joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to
 the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence
 around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even
 license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's
 not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the
 occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think
 that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on
 something really special.

 have a great day!
 Cindy Wodinsky
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[nysbirds-l] Croton Point 2/5

[Matthew Wills]

I'll second Joe Giuta's email about Croton Point: it was very quiet yesterday in this unseasonable mildness. We saw one mature and one juvenile Bald Eagle during the afternoon in Croton Bay. A lone juvenile Red-tailed hawk and a too quickly glimpsed falcon rounded out the raptors. We did have a little more land bird/passerine activity along the southeastern edge of the park:Mourning Dove,Carolina Wren, Golden-Crowned Kinglet, White-Breasted Nuthatch, Brown Creeper, Black-Capped Chickadee, Belted Kingfisher, Red-Bellied Woodpecker, Northern Flicker, Northern Mockingbird, Fish Crow, American Crow,House Finch, Song Sparrow, Starling.Croton Point Park is an excellent field trip for car-free NYC residents: the Metro-North express gets to the Croton-Harmon station in 43 minutes ($18 roundtrip), and the park is accessible across the bridge spanning the rail yard. Now, all we need is some ice on the river!Matthewhttp://matthewwills.com/

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RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Lloyd Spitalnik]

Hi all,
I was going to stay out of this thread because it's an impossible situation.
I come from 3 directions. I'm a long time birder, a professional wildlife
photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I've
always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know
there's a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it's at lamppost
7902 isn't. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but
telling people it's in the third dune back, not as good. I personally
believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I
was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started
approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew.
I was the first to get to its new location and kind of set up a line where
the owl wasn't disturbed but close enough to take photos. The offending
photographer arriver shortly after and started doing the same thing again. I
told him he needed to stop and explained what he was doing was wrong. He
listened, stayed a few more hours and never abused the bird again.
There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are
effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird
without alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won't go into the
technique but I took over 4000 images of Whitey and the bird always seemed
quite serene. I haven't really post many images but if you're on Facebook
I'm sure you can find a few. 
Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as
self-policing. Just my 3 cents.
 
All the best,
Lloyd
Lloyd Spitalnik Photography
www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com
 
From: bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu
[mailto:bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Sam Stuart
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 10:19 AM
To: david speiser
Cc: NYS Birds
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get
it
 
All,
 
We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those
with.  It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and
irregular species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with
others.  This is especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial
and sedentary species that are more susceptible to disturbances.   These
species should probably be documented on eBird ( http://www.ebird.org/
www.eBird.org) and the NY State Avian Records Committee (
http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm
http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list serve.  

 
Thanks,
Sam Stuart

 
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser david_spei...@hotmail.com
wrote:
I too agree with Cindy's summation.
The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that
make it easy
not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway.
Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a
Ross' Gull shows up!
That would need to be kept secret.
 
Good birding,

David Speiser
www.lilibirds.com http://www.lilibirds.com/ 
 
  _  

Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800
From: catbird...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get
it
To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
 
To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen
photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I
remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at
Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so
he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach
that day! We saw both of them!). The first, poster bird was sitting on a
dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance
of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second
bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach.
However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach
passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying
overhead and away. You just can't win!
 
I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding
listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery
slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting,
or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder
(yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back
yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin
the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?
 
Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees
what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private
club of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I
for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for
rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't
like 

Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Gregory Fisher]

Hats off to Cindy, very well said. Also to others on here that have pointed out that it is not just photographers but birders too that exhibit inappropriate behavior. To say lets just not post on here any species worthwhile, to me is just undermining what this is suppose to be about. This is suppose to be a community of interested people in birding. You have to subscribe to get these emails. Therefore who gets these emails is known. If a member of this community is going to abuse the privilege of this knowledge, then simply document the occurrence to leaders or organizer of this list. If found to be valid and the behavior is repeated, simply kicked them off the list. Don't punish everyone because of the arrogant inconsiderate ones. There are ways this can be handled to minimize those that don't get it. If you observe someone behaving inappropriate communicate with them considerately. If you just stand by and watch it and just complain, then your as big a part of the problem. Some people are just ignorant. Once you explain the birding ethics, many people then get it. For those that don't, report them appropriately and it becomes their loss going forward. I personally don't have days and days of time to go out and find some of these species on my own. Do I go out and look on my own several times a year yes. But I will drive several hours with hope of the opportunity to see something unique and / or rare that I have learned on this list, yes too. That does not make me lazy or a bad person. There are no guarantees. The bird might not be there when I get there or just simply may be out of reach or in hiding that day. Oh well, that is part of the adventure. Just my opinion.Greg-Original Message-
From: Cindy 
Sent: Feb 6, 2012 9:14 AM
To: NYS Birds 
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead
 and away. You just can't win!I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in
 anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird.There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really
 special.have a great day!Cindy Wodinsky  
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Photographer problem at Breezy Point

[Nadine Scarpa]

I was just about to post the same question about purpose, since the group
rules state:


The primary purpose of the List is to disseminate information about wild
bird sightings in and around New York State in a timely manner and to
provide an effective electronic forum for New York State area birders.



Instead of having respectful and ethical birders miss the opportunity to
see rare birds, we apparently need to police our own.



I also know that the ethics of birding also calls for using discretion when
revealing locations of rarities.  It would be unwise to post location
information to a generic website, but isn't that what this list is really
for?



I have seen as many birders as other clueless folks get too close to
birds, or cross onto private property, or just behave badly when trying to
see a rarity.



I treasure this list, and others like it, that allow folks to see birds
they wouldn't normally know about, or get to see in their lifetime!  I've
also done my share of reporting the folks who either break rules or laws in
the course of trying to see a bird.  I will continue to do that, and I hope
to also continue learning about the rarities and other information from
this list.



I hope the location posts continue.  It would be sad to deprive the good
birders of this information.



Nadine

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Jim Osterlund james...@optonline.netwrote:

 I wonder, then;  what purpose does this list serve?



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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Robert Lewis]

As a long-time resident and birder of New York state (more than 30 years) I 
agree with Cindy.

We must not fall into any extremist position.

It would be beyond a shame to go back to the old word of mouth system, when 
only a self-appointed elite knew about rarities.  

Respond appropriately to situations as they arise.  No knee-jerk reactions. 
That is the middle path.

Bob Lewis
Sleepy Hollow NY





--- On Mon, 2/6/12, Cindy catbird...@yahoo.com wrote:

From: Cindy catbird...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
To: NYS Birds nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 9:14 AM



I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding 
listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst 
owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare 
bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those 
exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get 
close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for 
everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?
Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees what, 
turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of 
sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for one 
don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, 
and am not in
 anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I 
know a few key people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for 
me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who 
might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy 
bird. 
There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless 
joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the 
photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around 
these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) 
of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while 
to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer 
an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of 
decent, good folks losing out on something really
 special. 
have a great day!Cindy Wodinsky  
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Dan]

Go find a rare bird. 

Sent from my iPhone4
Please, always leave a message, I screen every call. Thx.

On Feb 6, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Cindy catbird...@yahoo.com wrote:

 To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen 
 photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember 
 one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach 
 a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see 
 this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We 
 saw both of them!). The first, poster bird was sitting on a dune, with at 
 least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 
 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more 
 skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son 
 and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too 
 closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. 
 You just can't win!
 
 I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding 
 listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery 
 slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, 
 or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder 
 (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), 
 will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the 
 experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?
 
 Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees 
 what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club 
 of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for 
 one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for 
 rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't 
 like birding in a crowd. I know a few key people but nobody really well. 
 Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other 
 respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just 
 to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. 
 
 There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless 
 joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to 
 the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence 
 around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even 
 license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not 
 worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the 
 occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think 
 that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something 
 really special. 
 
 have a great day!
 Cindy Wodinsky
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Seth Ausubel]

I agree that my position is unfortunate and inconvenient for many.  But posts 
on this list have a major impact.  For example, I was out at Breezy Point on 
Saturday.  There were few birders and only one photographer when I was there, 
and the owls were left in peace.  Then, a post on NYSBirds, and, well, we have 
seen the result on Sunday.  I do NOT mean to single out the person who posted, 
just to point out the consequences of the Listserv in situations such as this.  
If someone wants to see a Snowy Owl they will still have opportunities, though 
perhaps requiring more effort.  I know this is disadvantageous to many, but our 
responsibility is to the birds and their habitat first.  So to all, if you are 
not in the loop,  get out and look.  Talk to other birders.  That's how you 
get in the loop.

Seth
  
On Feb 6, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Robert Lewis wrote:

 As a long-time resident and birder of New York state (more than 30 years) I 
 agree with Cindy.
 
 We must not fall into any extremist position.
 
 It would be beyond a shame to go back to the old word of mouth system, when 
 only a self-appointed elite knew about rarities.  
 
 Respond appropriately to situations as they arise.  No knee-jerk reactions. 
 That is the middle path.
 
 Bob Lewis
 Sleepy Hollow NY
 
 
 
 
 
 --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Cindy catbird...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 From: Cindy catbird...@yahoo.com
 Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
 To: NYS Birds nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
 Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 9:14 AM
 
 
 
 I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding 
 listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery 
 slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, 
 or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder 
 (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), 
 will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the 
 experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?
 
 Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees 
 what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club 
 of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for 
 one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for 
 rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't 
 like birding in a crowd. I know a few key people but nobody really well. 
 Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other 
 respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just 
 to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. 
 
 There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless 
 joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to 
 the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence 
 around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even 
 license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not 
 worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the 
 occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think 
 that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something 
 really special. 
 
 have a great day!
 Cindy Wodinsky
 --
 NYSbirds-L List Info:
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 Rules and Information
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 Surfbirds
 BirdingOnThe.Net
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 ...
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Seth Ausubel
Forest Hills, NY




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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Nadine Scarpa]

We use THIS list (and others) to get in the loop.  Not all of us have our
days free to wander all over the state looking for rarities or trying to
find other birders in the field to talk with to get the scoop on rarities.

We have full-time jobs, families, and many other commitments, which is why
this list (and others like it) allows us to see the many incredible rare
birds that grace our us with their presence.





On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Seth Ausubel sausu...@nyc.rr.com wrote:

 I agree that my position is unfortunate and inconvenient for many.  But
 posts on this list have a major impact.  For example, I was out at Breezy
 Point on Saturday.  There were few birders and only one photographer when I
 was there, and the owls were left in peace.  Then, a post on NYSBirds, and,
 well, we have seen the result on Sunday.  I do NOT mean to single out the
 person who posted, just to point out the consequences of the Listserv in
 situations such as this.  If someone wants to see a Snowy Owl they will
 still have opportunities, though perhaps requiring more effort.  I know
 this is disadvantageous to many, but our responsibility is to the birds and
 their habitat first.  So to all, if you are not in the loop,  get out and
 look.  Talk to other birders.  That's how you get in the loop.

 Seth

  On Feb 6, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Robert Lewis wrote:

   As a long-time resident and birder of New York state (more than 30
 years) I agree with Cindy.

 We must not fall into any extremist position.

 It would be beyond a shame to go back to the old word of mouth system,
 when only a self-appointed elite knew about rarities.

 Respond appropriately to situations as they arise.  No knee-jerk
 reactions. That is the middle path.

 Bob Lewis
 Sleepy Hollow NY





 --- On *Mon, 2/6/12, Cindy catbird...@yahoo.com* wrote:


 From: Cindy catbird...@yahoo.com
 Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't
 get it
 To: NYS Birds nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
 Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 9:14 AM

 

 I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding
 listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery
 slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting,
 or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or
 birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own
 back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off
 and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the
 bird!)?

 Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees
 what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private
 club of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate.
 I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out
 for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually
 don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few key people but nobody really
 well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other
 respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area
 just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird.

 There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless
 joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to
 the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence
 around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even
 license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's
 not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the
 occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think
 that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on
 something really special.

 have a great day!
 Cindy Wodinsky
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Felipe Pimentel]

I share David's and Cindy's views about the issue of restricting information 
about bird sightings. Before the time of the Internet (before the 1990s) 
birders got info about bird sightings mostly through phone calls. At that time, 
the number of active birders (or bird watchers was smaller than today). The 
significant increase in the number of birders (and bird photographers) has had 
positive and negative consequences. I will not repeat some of the so-called 
“negative” consequences since others have pointed out what they are. On the 
positive side, because their involvement in birding there are more people 
interested in wildlife and the environment and as concerned citizens they are 
important segment of the population that can be mobilized to protect these 
domains. According to survey data, during the past decade (2000-2010) about 48 
million adults participated in different forms of bird watching in the United 
States.
 I am mentioning the data to argue against any silly idea of restricting 
information about birds to a small group of selected birders since that would 
not contribute to expand the interest on birds among those who may join us in 
the field. And, it will not work since there are always other ways to get the 
info.
 On the other hand, tensions and conflicts between birders and photographers 
will not disappear. However, we should try to minimize these tensions since we 
are going to share the same spaces and we are going to be in the field looking 
for the same birds. While bird watchers can see birds from a relative long 
distance (using powerful scopes and first class binoculars) photographers know 
that in order to get a quality picture of a bird they have to come much closer 
to the subject than the so-called traditional “birder” even when you use the 
most powerful lenses in this craft (lenses above 500mm). One exception would be 
digiscoping but that is not photography in the traditional sense of the word.
 In last instance, the dilemma is a trade-off between competing interests. When 
I am in the field taking pictures of birds (and there are traditional 
birders/bird watchers around) I do my best not to disturb what other birders 
are doing. I try not to use flash (even if sometimes there is not alternative) 
and I kept longer distances from birds (than when I am alone) and sometimes I 
don’t try to take the shot if I feel it could create potential problems with my 
colleagues in the field. When I started doing bird photography several years 
ago I made several mistakes but I have learned from them. That is the best 
thing you can do.

Felipe

On Feb 6, 2012, at 10:08 AM, david speiser wrote:

 I too agree with Cindy's summation.
 The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that 
 make it easy
 not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway.
 Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a 
 Ross' Gull shows up!
 That would need to be kept secret.
  
 Good birding,
 
 David Speiser
 www.lilibirds.com
  
 Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800
 From: catbird...@yahoo.com
 Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
 To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
 
 To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen 
 photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember 
 one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach 
 a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see 
 this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We 
 saw both of them!). The first, poster bird was sitting on a dune, with at 
 least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 
 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more 
 skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son 
 and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too 
 closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. 
 You just can't win!
 
 I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding 
 listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery 
 slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, 
 or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder 
 (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), 
 will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the 
 experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?
 
 Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees 
 what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club 
 of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for 
 one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for 
 rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually 

[nysbirds-l] Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge (JBWR) This Morning (Queens Co.)

[ken feustel]

We arrived at JBWR at 6:45AM. We quickly located the Barrow's Goldeneye on the 
West Pond in the company of nearly one hundred Common Goldeneye. The Barrow's 
flew out to the bay (southwest direction) with the Common Goldeneye at 7:30AM. 
While searching through the rafts of waterfowl on the northwest side of the 
West Pond a Virginia Rail made an appearance in an opening in the Phragmites. 
We then headed over to the East Pond where we missed the Eurasian Wigeon, 
although twenty-six American Wigeon were at the south end of the pond.  We also 
observed a second winter Iceland Gull on the East Pond. 

On a related bird note, on Sunday morning at Sunken Meadow State Park there 
were eighteen Great Egrets feeding in Sunken Meadow Creek west of the foot 
bridge. 

Ken  Sue Feustel



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Fwd: [nysbirds-l] Photographer problem at Breezy Point

[Jim Osterlund]

Sent to me directly, by mistake;

Begin forwarded message:

From: scotty...@aol.com scotty...@aol.com
Date: February 6, 2012 7:12:36 AM EST
To: Jim Osterlund james...@optonline.net
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Photographer problem at Breezy Point

It serves the ignorant, the lazy, and the the followers that have  
nothing better to do with there lives but annoy the professionals.  
This is the 1st year I had to endure women talking about car payments  
and mortgages out on wildlife walks. And the 1st year I have watched  
people yell across the dunes to get the birds attention. All I hear  
these days is talking when I should hear silence with wind and the  
waves crashing. This list has ruined the experience for many. And it's  
not worth it!
Sorry for the reality check.

Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!

- Reply message -
From: Jim Osterlund james...@optonline.net
Date: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 12:09 am
Subject: [nysbirds-l] Photographer problem at Breezy Point
To: NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu

I wonder, then;  what purpose does this list serve?


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[nysbirds-l] Lewis woodpecker an apology

[Diana Teta]

Sorry I wrote in the wrong woodpecker, but the sentiments remain the same.

Thanks for the correction sent to me.

Diana Teta\

Long Island, NY


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RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Mark Barriger]

This topic is going on in most States right now because of the  number of Snowy 
Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong but honestly 
at least three quarters of the time when I see a birder make a dumb 
controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even just with 
owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example.
A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated 
Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler to 
come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two 
photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right in 
front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no consideration 
to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to the bird itself. 
All they cared about was getting that shot.
 I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at what he 
witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed up and 
released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This person wasn't 
mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT instead went on to 
talk about how this kind of action was causing the value in his flight shots to 
drop.  Glad to see that his priorities were in order!
Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for years and 
I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting Owls because 
90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's photographers or birders the 
fact is owls atract and when that happens nothing good ever comes out of it. 
Over the past two weeks I have been watching Barred, Saw-whet, and a Snowy Owl 
here in Connecticut and all have remained in the same areas because nobody 
knows about them and nobody bothers them. 
My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about 
observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking 
online for other people sightings.  
 
 
Mark Barriger
Wallingford, CT



 




From: ll...@lloydspitalnikphotos.com
To: NYSbirds-l@cornell.edu
CC: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500








Hi all,
I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible situation. I 
come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional wildlife 
photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I’ve 
always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know 
there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it’s at lamppost 7902 
isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling 
people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that 
self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I was at Jones Beach 
photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started approaching the owl in 
a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to 
its new location and kind of set up a line where the owl wasn’t disturbed but 
close enough to take photos. The offending photographer arriver shortly after 
and started doing the same thing again. I told him he needed to stop and 
explained what he was doing was wrong. He listened, stayed a few more hours and 
never abused the bird again.
There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are 
effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird without 
alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won’t go into the technique 
but I took over 4000 images of “Whitey” and the bird always seemed quite 
serene. I haven’t really post many images but if you’re on Facebook I’m sure 
you can find a few. 
Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as self-policing. 
Just my 3 cents.
 
All the best,
Lloyd
Lloyd Spitalnik Photography
www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com
 
From: bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Sam Stuart
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 10:19 AM
To: david speiser
Cc: NYS Birds
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
 

All,

 

We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those 
with.  It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and irregular 
species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with others.  This is 
especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial and sedentary 
species that are more susceptible to disturbances.   These species should 
probably be documented on eBird (www.eBird.org) and the NY State Avian Records 
Committee (http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list 
serve.  


 

Thanks,

Sam Stuart


 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser david_spei...@hotmail.com 
wrote:


I too agree with Cindy's 

[nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Peter Priolo]

List Members:
I am a recent subscriber of this list-serve.  Having read some but not all of 
the comments and opinions on the encroachment of birds for whatever the motive, 
I have decided to share some points. From my relative outside perspective, I 
see this issue to be one of great controversy and I feel a sort of unrest among 
a community of people who may actually all be on the same side.  I want to try 
to make a point that the state of the birds and our shared environment will be 
better stewarded to if we are to unite in our efforts. I mean to say we are 
attacking ourselves, pointing the finger in the mirror.
Motivated by a recent statement made by the president of the ABA, I think that 
those of us who are personally capable of doing so, should educate others while 
birding in the field.  The intention of the comment was to turn non-birders on 
to birding, but this can apply to those who are already introduced to birds but 
maybe not aware of their ethical birding offenses.  Some offenders may be well 
aware of their offenses I understand.  But I think the state of the birds will 
be more sustainable in the long run if we spread the special yearning, love, 
investment, wonder, research, and compassion for these taxon to more and more 
people in the world.  It will hurt birds if birders assault each other.  
Birders are a minority to begin with, we need to grow our efforts.  Some 
photographers may be more owl-like than owls themselves, but in most Snowy Owl 
photos I have seen, the owl had been looking directly at the lens implying the 
photographer is conspicuous to some level, but; it is the look of those bright 
eskimo eyes looking back at me on the post card or request for donation that 
encourage me to take positive action. For example, I posted a sighting this 
past weekend and someone traveling from NYC to Long Island saw the post, viewed 
the species, and sent me a thank you email. The viewpoint to see the birds was 
one of appropriateness and I believe no threat to the birds occurred. As a 
result, the passion for birds was spread among us. 
Many birders, whether hobbyist, ornithologist, photographers, 
conservation/preservation, PhD or 13 years old,  etc.- we all have some 
interest in birding that can lead to the further preservation, protection, 
discovery, knowledge, fund raising, support, emotional/recreational/spiritual 
related advancement of our worlds birds and their environment.   Among other 
things, I am a naturalist, a birder, a photographer, a living spiritual being 
affected by many issues related to our avian communities and their and our 
environment.  I don't want to be criticized or confronted by a polarized crowd 
of peers demanding me to chose a side for having both a camera and a spotting 
scope in the field.  We are on the same side. Yes I have flushed birds in 
pursuit of a fleeting opportunity that I had maybe been caught up in for 
various reasons whether adrenaline, obsession, emotion, curiosity, data 
collection, accidental etc.  And I have felt the human side of remorse and 
regret as a result of maybe flushing an apex predator. What effect (energy 
conservation or intake from feeding for example) does flushing a relatively few 
birds, when compared to the regional population of that species, have on that 
species population in the long run? I'm not sure. It obviously affects birders. 
Peter PrioloCenter Moriches  


  
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[nysbirds-l] a reality check

[Diana Teta]

In any profession, sport, hobby, occupation business,  or whatever,   there
are people who do  bad things at the expense of others. Some are good
people who should know better and some are just bad people.  The assumption
that may be in error is   people learn from their mistakes or from feedback
on their behavior.  How long has this debate/conflict about bad behavior on
birders or photographers part been occurring?   Literally years and years.
The learning curve appears to be flat.

Many cry foul when rules, conditions, limits are established yet will not
take accountability for the lack of change in an issue.

Diana Teta

\Long Island, NY


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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Nadine Scarpa]

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Mark Barriger mark8b...@hotmail.comwrote:

My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious
about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less
time checking online for other people sightings.

So lets go ahead and punish the folks who are serious about observing
birds, yet have full time jobs, families, and other commitments and don't
have time to go out looking for birds on a full-time basis.

Sure - that's it!

This thread is becoming  an us against them thread - the professional
birders versus the folks who love birds, and love watching them, yet cannot
spend all day out in the field.

It's getting ridiculous.

  This topic is going on in most States right now because of the  number
 of Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong
 but honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a birder make
 a dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even
 just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example.
 A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated
 Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler
 to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two
 photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right
 in front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no
 consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to
 the bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot.
  I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at
 what he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed
 up and released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This
 person wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT
 instead went on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value
 in his flight shots to drop.  Glad to see that his priorities were in order!
 Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for
 years and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting
 Owls because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's
 photographers or birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens
 nothing good ever comes out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been
 watching Barred, Saw-whet, and a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have
 remained in the same areas because nobody knows about them and nobody
 bothers them.
 My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious
 about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less
 time checking online for other people sightings.


 *Mark Barriger
 Wallingford, CT*




  --
 From: ll...@lloydspitalnikphotos.com
 To: NYSbirds-l@cornell.edu
 CC: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
 Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't
 get it
 Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500


  Hi all,

 I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible
 situation. I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional
 wildlife photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a
 listowner I’ve always discouraged posting of specific owl locations.
 Letting people know there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying
 it’s at lamppost 7902 isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy
 Point, OK but telling people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I
 personally believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or
 so ago, I was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when
 somebody started approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of
 course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to its new location and kind
 of set up a line where the owl wasn’t disturbed but close enough to take
 photos. The offending photographer arriver shortly after and started doing
 the same thing again. I told him he needed to stop and explained what he
 was doing was wrong. He listened, stayed a few more hours and never abused
 the bird again.

 There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are
 effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird
 without alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won’t go into the
 technique but I took over 4000 images of “Whitey” and the bird always
 seemed quite serene. I haven’t really post many images but if you’re on
 Facebook I’m sure you can find a few.

 Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as
 self-policing. Just my 3 cents.



 All the best,

 Lloyd

 Lloyd Spitalnik Photography

 www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com



 *From:* bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:
 bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu] *On Behalf Of *Sam Stuart
 *Sent:* Monday, February 06, 2012 10:19 AM
 *To:* david speiser
 *Cc:* NYS Birds
 *Subject:* Re: 

Re: [nysbirds-l] Photographer problem at Breezy Point

[Nadine Scarpa]

Scotty - Your statement is beyond ridiculous.



On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:25 PM, scotty...@aol.com scotty...@aol.comwrote:

 If your a good birder,  then u should know your locations for finding
 birds. Hiking is supposed to be part of the fun but its lost with the
 public. Posting rare birds locations online is stupid. Everyone will want
 to see and word will be spread.  Keep it secret, keep it sacred and keep
 the unwanted away from these locations. People ate coming from put of state
 now. You are all to blame.

 Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!

 - Reply message -
 From: Nadine Scarpa nadinescarpaho...@gmail.com
 Date: Mon, Feb 6, 2012 10:56 am
 Subject: [nysbirds-l] Photographer problem at Breezy Point
 To: NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu

 I was just about to post the same question about purpose, since the group
 rules state:


 The primary purpose of the List is to disseminate information about wild
 bird sightings in and around New York State in a timely manner and to
 provide an effective electronic forum for New York State area birders.



 Instead of having respectful and ethical birders miss the opportunity to
 see rare birds, we apparently need to police our own.



 I also know that the ethics of birding also calls for using discretion
 when revealing locations of rarities.  It would be unwise to post location
 information to a generic website, but isn't that what this list is really
 for?



 I have seen as many birders as other clueless folks get too close to
 birds, or cross onto private property, or just behave badly when trying to
 see a rarity.



 I treasure this list, and others like it, that allow folks to see birds
 they wouldn't normally know about, or get to see in their lifetime!  I've
 also done my share of reporting the folks who either break rules or laws in
 the course of trying to see a bird.  I will continue to do that, and I hope
 to also continue learning about the rarities and other information from
 this list.



 I hope the location posts continue.  It would be sad to deprive the good
 birders of this information.



 Nadine

 On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Jim Osterlund james...@optonline.netwrote:

 I wonder, then;  what purpose does this list serve?



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Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Fred Baumgarten]

I like Peter's posting and would like to add a few thoughts.  Maybe I'm
missing something, but the question that doesn't seem to be fully addressed
is: What do we do about it?

Keeping sightings off the listserves is one solution, but one that a lot of
people, myself included, have difficulty with.  As others have pointed out,
it fosters an attitude of elitism and exclusivity that many have tried to
overcome in the birding community.

Moreover, I'm not convinced it would make that big a difference.  There is
an implication here that those who get sightings off a listserve are
somehow inherently less respectful birders.  I'm not buying that.  Just
because I read about an owl online rather than go trekking to Jones Beach,
say, to look for one myself isn't going to change the way I go about
looking at the bird.  (That is to say, hopefully with respect.)

You could argue that posting increases the numbers, and thereby increases
the chances of malfeasance.  Maybe.  But I'm not convinced other channels
wouldn't have the same effect.  If a Snowy Owl showed up at Breezy Point,
word would travel, listserve or not.  And to the person who suggested
posting the general area, not the specific dune, that just seems pointless
to me.  Having to search far and wide makes one more respectful than
zeroing in on the spot?

There's also an ancillary benefit to the postings, in my opinion.  I like
to know!  99% of the time I don't get out to look for the bird myself, but
it excites me to know what's going on in the world of birding and rarities.

I'm intrigued by the photographer/birder who says he gets within 15 feet
(or yards, I can't remember which) of the owl, and that's enough to keep
the bird from flushing.  How does he decide what the correct distance
is?  Is he still walking through fragile dunes to get to his mythical
line?  While I have no bias against photographers vs. birders, might we
admit that to get a good shot, a professional or amateur photographer has
to approach a bird considerably closer than a birder to get a
satisfactory shot/look?  So we are back to the question of what do we
do?  The problem is not going to go away on its own.

Another source of confusion: What are we trying to protect?  The habitat,
the bird, or every birder's right at having a fair chance of seeing the
bird?  Or all three?  The conditions for each may be very different.  If
the dunes at Breezy Point are closed off to protect the habitat, then the
solution is to enforce those boundaries absolutely, and maybe we need to
find out how we can enhance enforcement.

I suggest, as have others, that ultimately the answer lies in educating
ourselves and others in proper birding ethics and etiquette.  We need to
think creatively and without blaming about how to do this.  Maybe birders
out to see a Snowy Owl can bring a sign with them that explains the proper
viewing distance and behavior.  Maybe we need to somehow designate
captains to regulate viewing, and at least provide powerful viewing
equipment for visitors to share.  Maybe we need to have designated times
when photographers can go closer for shots.

I don't know.  But we need to keep working for solutions, together,
constructively.

--Fred--

Fred Baumgarten
Sharon, CT/Westchester, NY
And Points In-between
fredbee.ea...@gmail.com


On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Peter Priolo priolope...@hotmail.comwrote:

  List Members:

 I am a recent subscriber of this list-serve.  Having read some but not all
 of the comments and opinions on the encroachment of birds for whatever the
 motive, I have decided to share some points. From my relative outside
 perspective, I see this issue to be one of great controversy and I feel a
 sort of unrest among a community of people who may actually all be on the
 same side.  I want to try to make a point that the state of the birds and
 our shared environment will be better stewarded to if we are to unite in
 our efforts. I mean to say we are attacking ourselves, pointing the finger
 in the mirror.

  Motivated by a recent statement made by the president of the ABA, I
 think that those of us who are personally capable of doing so, should
 educate others while birding in the field.  The intention of the comment
 was to turn non-birders on to birding, but this can apply to those who are
 already introduced to birds but maybe not aware of their ethical birding
 offenses.  Some offenders may be well aware of their offenses I understand.
  But I think the state of the birds will be more sustainable in the long
 run if we spread the special yearning, love, investment, wonder, research,
 and compassion for these taxon to more and more people in the world.  *It
 will hurt birds if birders assault each other.*  Birders are a minority
 to begin with, we need to grow our efforts.  Some photographers may be more
 owl-like than owls themselves, but in most Snowy Owl photos I have seen,
 the owl had been looking directly at the lens implying the photographer is
 conspicuous 

Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

[Gregory Fisher]

Well said Fred and Peter. -Original Message-
From: Fred Baumgarten 
Sent: Feb 6, 2012 12:38 PM
To: NYSBirds-L@cornell.edu
Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] ethics, photographers, knee-jerks, op-eds

I like Peter's posting and would like to add a few thoughts. Maybe I'm missing something, but the question that doesn't seem to be fully addressed is: What do we do about it?

Keeping sightings off the listserves is one solution, but one that a lot of people, myself included, have difficulty with. As others have pointed out, it fosters an attitude of elitism and exclusivity that many have tried to overcome in the birding community.


Moreover, I'm not convinced it would make that big a difference. There is an implication here that those who get sightings off a listserve are somehow inherently less respectful birders. I'm not buying that. Just because I read about an owl online rather than go trekking to Jones Beach, say, to look for one myself isn't going to change the way I go about looking at the bird. (That is to say, hopefully with respect.)


You could argue that posting increases the numbers, and thereby increases the chances of malfeasance. Maybe. But I'm not convinced other channels wouldn't have the same effect. If a Snowy Owl showed up at Breezy Point, word would travel, listserve or not. And to the person who suggested posting the general area, not the specific dune, that just seems pointless to me. Having to search far and wide makes one more respectful than zeroing in on the spot?


There's also an ancillary benefit to the postings, in my opinion. I like to know! 99% of the time I don't get out to look for the bird myself, but it excites me to know what's going on in the world of birding and rarities.


I'm intrigued by the photographer/birder who says he gets within 15 feet (or yards, I can't remember which) of the owl, and that's enough to keep the bird from flushing. How does he decide what the "correct" distance is? Is he still walking through fragile dunes to get to his mythical line? While I have no bias against photographers vs. birders, might we admit that to get a good shot, a professional or amateur photographer has to approach a bird considerably closer than a birder to get a "satisfactory" shot/look? So we are back to the question of what do we do? The problem is not going to go away on its own.


Another source of confusion: What are we trying to protect? The habitat, the bird, or every birder's right at having a fair chance of seeing the bird? Or all three? The conditions for each may be very different. If the dunes at Breezy Point are closed off to protect the habitat, then the solution is to enforce those boundaries absolutely, and maybe we need to find out how we can enhance enforcement.


I suggest, as have others, that ultimately the answer lies in educating ourselves and others in proper birding ethics and etiquette. We need to think creatively and without blaming about how to do this. Maybe birders out to see a Snowy Owl can bring a sign with them that explains the proper viewing distance and behavior. Maybe we need to somehow designate "captains" to regulate viewing, and at least provide powerful viewing equipment for visitors to share. Maybe we need to have designated times when photographers can go closer for shots. 


I don't know. But we need to keep working for solutions, together, constructively.

--Fred--

Fred Baumgarten
Sharon, CT/Westchester, NY
And Points In-between
fredbee.ea...@gmail.com

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Peter Priolo priolope...@hotmail.com wrote:


List Members: 

I am a recent subscriber of this list-serve. Having read some but not all of the comments and opinions on the encroachment of birds for whatever the motive, I have decided to share some points.From my relative outside perspective, I see this issue to be one of great controversy and I feel a sort of unrest among a community of people who may actually all be on the same side. I want to try to make a point that the state of the birds and our shared environment will be better stewarded to if we are to unite in our efforts. I mean to say we are attacking ourselves, pointing the finger in the mirror.



Motivated by a recent statement made by the president of the ABA, I think that those of us who are personally capable of doing so, should educate others while birding in the field. The intention of the comment was to turn non-birders on to birding, but this can apply to those who are already introduced to birds but maybe not aware of their ethical birding offenses. Some offenders may be well aware of their offenses I understand. But I think the state of the birds will be more sustainable in the long run if we spread the special yearning, love, investment, wonder, research, and compassion for these taxon to more and more people in the world. It will hurt birds if birders assault each other.Birders are a minority to begin with, we need to grow our efforts. Some 

Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it

[Felipe Pimentel]

The issue should not be one of them against us since that would not help at 
all. As a birder and as a photographer, I am concerned that these issues will 
have negative repercussions on the social interactions between us in the field. 
 BTW, most of the bird photographers that I know are not professional but 
people who enjoy spending time shooting pictures of birds.  
 Regarding the issue of reporting owl sightings, I stopped doing that after an 
unpleasant experience reporting the location of a Barred Owl that I saw in 
Central Park. Last week I saw a single Long-eared Owl roosting on a pine in 
Hunter Island (Pelham Bay Park). The bird was pretty high on a pine and well 
camouflaged to get a clear shot and I did not even try to get a picture. I 
wanted to report the sighting but I did not know how to do it without being too 
specific and explicit about the location and I did not even bother to do it to 
avoid arguments with other birders. 

FP



On Feb 6, 2012, at 12:22 PM, Nadine Scarpa wrote:

 On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Mark Barriger mark8b...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
 My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious 
 about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time 
 checking online for other people sightings.
  
 So lets go ahead and punish the folks who are serious about observing birds, 
 yet have full time jobs, families, and other commitments and don't have time 
 to go out looking for birds on a full-time basis.
  
 Sure - that's it!
  
 This thread is becoming  an us against them thread - the professional 
 birders versus the folks who love birds, and love watching them, yet cannot 
 spend all day out in the field.
  
 It's getting ridiculous. 
 This topic is going on in most States right now because of the  number of 
 Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong but 
 honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a birder make a 
 dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even 
 just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example.
 A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated 
 Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler 
 to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two 
 photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right in 
 front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no 
 consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to the 
 bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot.
  I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at what 
 he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed up and 
 released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This person 
 wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT instead went 
 on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value in his flight 
 shots to drop.  Glad to see that his priorities were in order!
 Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for years 
 and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting Owls 
 because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's photographers or 
 birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens nothing good ever comes 
 out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been watching Barred, Saw-whet, and 
 a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have remained in the same areas 
 because nobody knows about them and nobody bothers them. 
 My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious 
 about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time 
 checking online for other people sightings.  
  
  
 Mark Barriger
 Wallingford, CT
 
 
 
  
 From: ll...@lloydspitalnikphotos.com
 To: NYSbirds-l@cornell.edu
 CC: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu
 Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
 Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500
 
 
 Hi all,
 
 I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible situation. 
 I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional wildlife 
 photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I’ve 
 always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know 
 there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it’s at lamppost 7902 
 isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling 
 people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that 
 self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I was at Jones 
 Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started approaching the 
 owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew. I was the first 
 to get to its new location and kind of set up a line where the owl wasn’t 
 disturbed but close enough to take photos. The