Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
On Apr 25, 2006, at 4:15 PM, Tim.Churches wrote: - - - - a bunch of really well written stuff, followed by - - - - ...Note that members do NOT have to agree with every last word of the constitution, but they must agree to abide by it. That is analogous with national or state law - I don't agree with many of the laws of Australia, but I accept that as a citizen and resident of Australia I must abide by them (often grudgingly, but I still do so). I also accept that I can try to change those laws with which I don't agree through a range of activities, from lobbying political representatives through to direct participation in the political process. The proposed OSHCA constitutions says: 5.1 Membership shall be open to persons interested in furthering the objects of OSHCA and shall consist of anyone who has accepted the premise of OSHCA’s Vision, Mission Statements and Principles by indicating such acceptance via OSHCA’s Internet Registration process. Also implicit in Section 7.4 are the provisions that members must *abide* by the constitution and not bring the organisation into disrepute. Nowhere does it say that members must agree with every last provision or letter of the constitution, just that they must abide by it. Members must, however, accept the OSHCA vision, mission statement and principles. tim, i appreciate your clear restatement of the situation. and i share your perspective on tolerance for imperfect constitutions and a willingness to abide by them flaws-and-all in order to accomplish a greater common good (e.g., consider the country i live in, with its bullying foreign policies and simply dreadful leaders, but i digress). i am trying to reconcile the section of the constitution which you have so usefully pointed out with the following post by molly to the list at the start of the meeting: - - - - Begin forwarded message excerpt - - - - From: Molly Cheah [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: April 24, 2006 9:00:17 PM PDT To: Will Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Joseph Dal Molin [EMAIL PROTECTED], openhealth@yahoogroups.com Subject: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution Reply-To: openhealth@yahoogroups.com Hi Will, What you have done is incorrect. As you disagree with the constitution, we will not be able to include your name in the list of founding members to the ROS simply because the ROS will not register OSHCA. Therefore there will be no OSHCA for you to be a member of. - - - - End forwarded message excerpt - - - - to paraphrase molly's post: if you fail to agree unanimously with all ten (or eleven depending on how you count them) resolutions in the on-line meeting document, then you are not allowed to be a founding member of oshca. this external comment of molly's is of course much more clear and direct than the more fuzzy instruction on the meeting document which obliquely refers to the same sort of rule (i.e., rule #2 Each person then adopts the resolutions by agreeing to accept the resolutions.). so what we have in the fast track oshca v2.0 process is narrow restrictions on who can be a founding member. i objected to this because i want the oshca founder's list to be inclusive rather than exclusive. i am not asking for the process to be perfect, just inclusive. - - - - more stuff from tim - - - - I think that this collective mistake can be easily remedied by inviting a second round of founding membership applications using a form which makes the conditions for membership crystal clear. I think this can be done in the next day or so, since the planned date for submission of documents to the Malaysian authorities is not until 2nd May. If not, then people can still apply for membership prior to the first post-registration meeting. There are no special privileges or rights conferred by being a founding member, so joining as part of the inaugural meeting or joining after it but before the next meeting are functionally equivalent. - - - - back to my comments - - - - this sounds useful and creative and focuses directly on the objection i have raised. good job. - - - - back to tim - - - - So, there is no compulsion to vote yes to all the resolutions. Obviously if you vote no to the resolution that OSHCA form as a formally registered society, then you are unlikely to want to become a member of such as society. - - - - back to my comments - - - - nonsense. as a member of the community i want to make what i think is a useful suggestion. that does not mean i will refuse to be a member of an imperfect society, or that anyone else will think my suggestion is at all useful. - - - - back to tim - - - - With respect to the constitution, please note that the resolution on which you are asked to vote says: Constitution A draft constitution, based on the 'Model Society Constitution' supplied by the Office of the Registrar
Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
On Apr 25, 2006, at 5:40 PM, Nandalal Gunaratne wrote: Will, You are right! The flawed process was an attempt to get the OSHCA formally retgisterd, start a web site and get going. Endless changes and debate are not going to do this. Therefore, with this somewhat awkward, even ridiculous process, we become a formally registered organization. The alternative? Endless debates as to where to register, endless changees to the constitution, exasperating changes of the formalization, dates to have meetings, ways to have the meeting. Molly gives up. No formalization. Nobody to take over the formalization and registration. OSHCA remains what it is. A tiny, very tiny email forum with about 5-7 regular mailers and several lurkers. I give up. OSHCA is all yours! Take it, keep it, own it, mail each other and keep each other happy. Nandalal nandalal, i'll take your comments as humor, because at face value they are neither enlightening, constructive or accurate. and no, oshca is yours. [wr] - - - - - - - - will ross project manager mendocino informatics 216 west perkins street, suite 206 ukiah, california 95482 usa 707.462.6369 [office] 707.462.5015 [fax] www.minformatics.com - - - - - - - - Getting people to adopt common standards is impeded by patents. Sir Tim Berners-Lee, BCS, 2006 - - - - - - - - SPONSORED LINKS Software distribution Salon software Medical software Software association Software jewelry Software deployment YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "openhealth" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
molly, with all due respect, what is the point of offering opportunities to vote for or against a position if a nay vote is disallowed or prevents the possibility of membership? please explain to me how the loyal opposition can voice their opinion without harassment, retribution, exclusion and expulsion. please review the motions. i approved the creation of the entity, the naming of the entity, and the members of the protem committee, but i opposed submission of the proposed constitution because i consider it to be unnecessarily flawed, and the process to be unnecessarily rushed. i fail to see to see the connection between my nay vote on the constitution and your assertion that i am disallowed to be a founding member. if anything, it is flawed instructions for a meeting process that is interfering with my good faith attempt to openly join oshca. with best regards, [wr] - - - - - - - - On Apr 24, 2006, at 9:00 PM, Molly Cheah wrote: Hi Will, What you have done is incorrect. As you disagree with the constitution, we will not be able to include your name in the list of founding members to the ROS simply because the ROS will not register OSHCA. Therefore there will be no OSHCA for you to be a member of. I am posting this to the openhealth list for the information of others. Molly Will Ross wrote: joseph, not sure if this is correct. [wr] - - - - - - - - will ross project manager mendocino informatics 216 west perkins street, suite 206 ukiah, california 95482 usa 707.462.6369 [office] 707.462.5015 [fax] www.minformatics.com - - - - - - - - Getting people to adopt common standards is impeded by patents. Sir Tim Berners-Lee, BCS, 2006 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/323 - Release Date: 4/24/2006 [wr] - - - - - - - - will ross project manager mendocino informatics 216 west perkins street, suite 206 ukiah, california 95482 usa 707.462.6369 [office] 707.462.5015 [fax] www.minformatics.com - - - - - - - - Getting people to adopt common standards is impeded by patents. Sir Tim Berners-Lee, BCS, 2006 - - - - - - - - YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "openhealth" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
Will, For some reason I didn't receive the email you sent below with the attached formplease resend a copy to me for the record. Joseph Molly Cheah wrote: Hi Will, What you have done is incorrect. As you disagree with the constitution, we will not be able to include your name in the list of founding members to the ROS simply because the ROS will not register OSHCA. Therefore there will be no OSHCA for you to be a member of. I am posting this to the openhealth list for the information of others. Molly Will Ross wrote: joseph, not sure if this is correct. [wr] - - - - - - - - will ross project manager mendocino informatics 216 west perkins street, suite 206 ukiah, california 95482 usa 707.462.6369 [office] 707.462.5015 [fax] www.minformatics.com - - - - - - - - Getting people to adopt common standards is impeded by patents. Sir Tim Berners-Lee, BCS, 2006 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/323 - Release Date: 4/24/2006 SPONSORED LINKS Software distribution http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msk=Software+distributionw1=Software+distributionw2=Salon+softwarew3=Medical+softwarew4=Software+associationw5=Software+jewelryw6=Software+deploymentc=6s=142.sig=XcuzZXUhhqAa4nls1QYuCg Salon software http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msk=Salon+softwarew1=Software+distributionw2=Salon+softwarew3=Medical+softwarew4=Software+associationw5=Software+jewelryw6=Software+deploymentc=6s=142.sig=CW98GQRF3_rWnTxU62jsdA Medical software http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msk=Medical+softwarew1=Software+distributionw2=Salon+softwarew3=Medical+softwarew4=Software+associationw5=Software+jewelryw6=Software+deploymentc=6s=142.sig=86bMQqtlpuDBvFzrRcQApw Software association http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msk=Software+associationw1=Software+distributionw2=Salon+softwarew3=Medical+softwarew4=Software+associationw5=Software+jewelryw6=Software+deploymentc=6s=142.sig=YhKUbszKHqjPXh21AbTSwg Software jewelry http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msk=Software+jewelryw1=Software+distributionw2=Salon+softwarew3=Medical+softwarew4=Software+associationw5=Software+jewelryw6=Software+deploymentc=6s=142.sig=9EWe0V3gtVyQaCqOgchvlw Software deployment http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=msk=Software+deploymentw1=Software+distributionw2=Salon+softwarew3=Medical+softwarew4=Software+associationw5=Software+jewelryw6=Software+deploymentc=6s=142.sig=VNvgzp250z70B2EFV3JYqg YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group openhealth http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/. . YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "openhealth" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
If the process requires all of the items to be approved to move forward, I submit it is fatally flawed. If all are required to be approved then there should simply be one vote up or down. If not then the results of the process should be able to go forward based on the various possible outcomes. I haven't decided how to vote yet, but will do so sometime today. Dave Will Ross wrote: molly, with all due respect, what is the point of offering opportunities to vote for or against a position if a nay vote is disallowed or prevents the possibility of membership? please explain to me how the loyal opposition can voice their opinion without harassment, retribution, exclusion and expulsion. please review the motions. i approved the creation of the entity, the naming of the entity, and the members of the protem committee, but i opposed submission of the proposed constitution because i consider it to be unnecessarily flawed, and the process to be unnecessarily rushed. i fail to see to see the connection between my nay vote on the constitution and your assertion that i am disallowed to be a founding member. if anything, it is flawed instructions for a meeting process that is interfering with my good faith attempt to openly join oshca. with best regards, [wr] - - - - - - - - On Apr 24, 2006, at 9:00 PM, Molly Cheah wrote: Hi Will, What you have done is incorrect. As you disagree with the constitution, we will not be able to include your name in the list of founding members to the ROS simply because the ROS will not register OSHCA. Therefore there will be no OSHCA for you to be a member of. I am posting this to the openhealth list for the information of others. Molly Will Ross wrote: joseph, not sure if this is correct. [wr] - - - - - - - - will ross project manager mendocino informatics 216 west perkins street, suite 206 ukiah, california 95482 usa 707.462.6369 [office] 707.462.5015 [fax] www.minformatics.com - - - - - - - - Getting people to adopt common standards is impeded by patents. Sir Tim Berners-Lee, BCS, 2006 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/323 - Release Date: 4/24/2006 [wr] - - - - - - - - will ross project manager mendocino informatics 216 west perkins street, suite 206 ukiah, california 95482 usa 707.462.6369 [office] 707.462.5015 [fax] www.minformatics.com - - - - - - - - Getting people to adopt common standards is impeded by patents. Sir Tim Berners-Lee, BCS, 2006 - - - - - - - - YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "openhealth" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
Joseph Dal Molin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Will, Please forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing ;-) They have not done this before! Perfection is worth striving for, but it is almost never reachable, Therefore it was agreed by most of us that it was OK to get it going and then change it. If this democratic process is not there, and your suggestions for change are not accepted by the others in the future, let us both resign and join another group. The way of holding the meeting looks wiered for most of us, but it is a method that is accesible for all, does not limit us to a time ( I was in the operating theatre for 11 hours today and one surgery was 6 hours. meaning if Molly fixed a video conference at this time, i would not had the opportunity to take part), and gave us a whole new experience :-) I was asked by Molly if i wanted to be in the Protem committee, I agreed. I was made Asst. Secretary at first, then made into representative for Asia and Juliana, her daughter, became the asst. secretary, all without a word to me! But I think that was probably a good thing, both for the committee and me ;-) We would really like to have you with us and therfore, forgive but do not forget! Come back with your proposals and I am sure they would be welcome. Nandalal Will, I agree that the process we are following is a clunky. My suggestion is let's do what democratic countries do with imperfect constitutions and amend it after we have bootstrapped OSHCA into existencethe US did it so can OHSCA :-). Would you be comfortable boostrapping OSHCA for now and then working to amend the constitution? Given that OSHCA is a democracy we can deal with flaws and omissions more effectively with real voting membership in place. Joseph Will Ross wrote: molly, with all due respect, what is the point of offering opportunities to vote for or against a position if a nay vote is disallowed or prevents the possibility of membership? please explain to me how the loyal opposition can voice their opinion without harassment, retribution, exclusion and expulsion. please review the motions. i approved the creation of the entity, the naming of the entity, and the members of the protem committee, but i opposed submission of the proposed constitution because i consider it to be unnecessarily flawed, and the process to be unnecessarily rushed. i fail to see to see the connection between my nay vote on the constitution and your assertion that i am disallowed to be a founding member. if anything, it is flawed instructions for a meeting process that is interfering with my good faith attempt to openly join oshca. with best regards, [wr] - - - - - - - - On Apr 24, 2006, at 9:00 PM, Molly Cheah wrote: Hi Will, What you have done is incorrect. As you disagree with the constitution, we will not be able to include your name in the list of founding members to the ROS simply because the ROS will not register OSHCA. Therefore there will be no OSHCA for you to be a member of. I am posting this to the openhealth list for the information of others. Molly Will Ross wrote: joseph, not sure if this is correct. [wr] - - - - - - - - will ross project manager mendocino informatics 216 west perkins street, suite 206 ukiah, california 95482 usa 707.462.6369 [office] 707.462.5015 [fax] www.minformatics.com - - - - - - - - Getting people to adopt common standards is impeded by patents. Sir Tim Berners-Lee, BCS, 2006 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/323 - Release Date: 4/24/2006 [wr] - - - - - - - - will ross project manager mendocino informatics 216 west perkins street, suite 206 ukiah, california 95482 usa 707.462.6369 [office] 707.462.5015 [fax] www.minformatics.com - - - - - - - - Getting people to adopt common standards is impeded by patents. Sir Tim Berners-Lee, BCS, 2006 - - - - - - - - YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group openhealth http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/. . SPONSORED LINKS Software distribution Salon software Medical software Software association Software jewelry Software deployment
Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
OSCHA committee, It is a little troublesome that Will's membership is being discarded along with his comments. Essentially the arguments of the committee is lets get it working and then worry about getting it right. This is fine but I, at least, will have to wait to see it working right before I can toss my hat in the ring. This is not so much a criticism, perhaps the committee has the right idea! But until there is an entity that merits trust (which means having a forum for dissenting supporters) then I will have to stay on the sidelines with (apparently) Will. -- Fred Trotter SynSeer, Consultant http://www.fredtrotter.com http://www.synseer.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "openhealth" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
Fred, Nothing is being discardedI am taking minutes. There is no disadvantage to waiting to register with OSHCA until after this clunky process for bootstraping incorporation is complete. In fact, given the clunky birthing process and concerns raised, it will be extremely important for anyone who isn't comfortable with the process, constitution or anything else for that matter to join right away and contribute to improving the constitution etc. and ensuring that a collaborative, democratic process is followed. If it isn't we can as Nandal has said vote with our feet and leave the organization. I certainly will not hesitate to resign whatever post I have, if any, and leave OSHCA behind if it doesn't walk the talk. Joseph Fred Trotter wrote: OSCHA committee, It is a little troublesome that Will's membership is being discarded along with his comments. Essentially the arguments of the committee is lets get it working and then worry about getting it right. This is fine but I, at least, will have to wait to see it working right before I can toss my hat in the ring. This is not so much a criticism, perhaps the committee has the right idea! But until there is an entity that merits trust (which means having a forum for dissenting supporters) then I will have to stay on the sidelines with (apparently) Will. -- Fred Trotter SynSeer, Consultant http://www.fredtrotter.com http://www.synseer.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group openhealth http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/. . YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "openhealth" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
fred, joseph, and all, please do not vote with your feet and leave this process. this is a good effort and deserves to get built without folks walking out or staying on the sidelines. we all win when we figure out how to move forward. [wr] - - - - - - - - On Apr 25, 2006, at 10:41 AM, Joseph Dal Molin wrote: Fred, Nothing is being discardedI am taking minutes. There is no disadvantage to waiting to register with OSHCA until after this clunky process for bootstraping incorporation is complete. In fact, given the clunky birthing process and concerns raised, it will be extremely important for anyone who isn't comfortable with the process, constitution or anything else for that matter to join right away and contribute to improving the constitution etc. and ensuring that a collaborative, democratic process is followed. If it isn't we can as Nandal has said vote with our feet and leave the organization. I certainly will not hesitate to resign whatever post I have, if any, and leave OSHCA behind if it doesn't walk the talk. Joseph Fred Trotter wrote: OSCHA committee, It is a little troublesome that Will's membership is being discarded along with his comments. Essentially the arguments of the committee is lets get it working and then worry about getting it right. This is fine but I, at least, will have to wait to see it working right before I can toss my hat in the ring. This is not so much a criticism, perhaps the committee has the right idea! But until there is an entity that merits trust (which means having a forum for dissenting supporters) then I will have to stay on the sidelines with (apparently) Will. -- Fred Trotter SynSeer, Consultant http://www.fredtrotter.com http://www.synseer.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - --- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS * Visit your group openhealth http://groups.yahoo.com/group/openhealth on the web. * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] subject=Unsubscribe * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/. - --- . Yahoo! Groups Links [wr] - - - - - - - - will ross project manager mendocino informatics 216 west perkins street, suite 206 ukiah, california 95482 usa 707.462.6369 [office] 707.462.5015 [fax] www.minformatics.com - - - - - - - - Getting people to adopt common standards is impeded by patents. Sir Tim Berners-Lee, BCS, 2006 - - - - - - - - YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "openhealth" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
Fred Trotter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred, There was enough time given for dissent/discussion. Molly asked everyone repeatedly to comment on the issues. We can't wait for ever, therefore a time limit was set, and the FINAL draft was set down. Therfore there was really nothing to disagree about! Perhaps, Molly should have removed the disagree part and just left everyone to approve. Will sent his comments once everything was done and over with. Where was he all that time? His late comments would only disrupt a process set in motion in a very democratic manner. If you cannot understand this situation, by all means wait in the sidelines and join when you are happy to do so. Nobody will stop you. See the democracy at work ? :-) Hope to see you back soon, dissenting and arguing! Nandalal OSCHA committee, It is a little troublesome that Will's membership is being discarded along with his comments. Essentially the arguments of the committee is lets get it working and then worry about getting it right. This is fine but I, at least, will have to wait to see it working right before I can toss my hat in the ring. This is not so much a criticism, perhaps the committee has the right idea! But until there is an entity that merits trust (which means having a forum for dissenting supporters) then I will have to stay on the sidelines with (apparently) Will. -- Fred Trotter SynSeer, Consultant http://www.fredtrotter.com http://www.synseer.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group openhealth on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - - How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "openhealth" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
I don't understand the complaint about Will's concerns. The voting wasn't done when he indicated his comments. So why do you say that everything was done and over with? What is the voting about then? Perhaps I'm missing something important? I thought voting was a democratic process. :-) Dave Nandalal Gunaratne wrote: Fred Trotter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred, There was enough time given for dissent/discussion. Molly asked everyone repeatedly to comment on the issues. We can't wait for ever, therefore a time limit was set, and the FINAL draft was set down. Therfore there was really nothing to disagree about! Perhaps, Molly should have removed the disagree part and just left everyone to approve. Will sent his comments once everything was done and over with. Where was he all that time? His late comments would only disrupt a process set in motion in a very democratic manner. If you cannot understand this situation, by all means wait in the sidelines and join when you are happy to do so. Nobody will stop you. See the democracy at work ? :-) Hope to see you back soon, dissenting and arguing! Nandalal OSCHA committee, It is a little troublesome that Will's membership is being discarded along with his comments. Essentially the arguments of the committee is lets get it working and then worry about getting it right. This is fine but I, at least, will have to wait to see it working right before I can toss my hat in the ring. This is not so much a criticism, perhaps the committee has the right idea! But until there is an entity that merits trust (which means having a forum for dissenting supporters) then I will have to stay on the sidelines with (apparently) Will. -- Fred Trotter SynSeer, Consultant http://www.fredtrotter.com http://www.synseer.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "openhealth" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
RES: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
Dear Will, I understand your concerns. On the other hand, Perfection is the enemy of the good and I believe we should not risk having OSHCA constitution delayed for another couple years... If you choose not to come aboard for now, please send me your suggestions as I will gladly forward them inside OSHCA. But I would rather have you doing that as an OSHCA member. Regards, John --- John Lemos Forman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tecso Informática Ltda. www.tecso.com.br http://www.tecso.com.br/ Tel: +55 (21) 2224-4643 Fax: +55 (21) 2509-0023 --- _ De: openhealth@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Em nome de Nandalal Gunaratne Enviada em: terça-feira, 25 de abril de 2006 13:30 Para: openhealth@yahoogroups.com Assunto: Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution Joseph Dal Molin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Will, Please forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing ;-) They have not done this before! Perfection is worth striving for, but it is almost never reachable, Therefore it was agreed by most of us that it was OK to get it going and then change it. If this democratic process is not there, and your suggestions for change are not accepted by the others in the future, let us both resign and join another group. The way of holding the meeting looks wiered for most of us, but it is a method that is accesible for all, does not limit us to a time ( I was in the operating theatre for 11 hours today and one surgery was 6 hours. meaning if Molly fixed a video conference at this time, i would not had the opportunity to take part), and gave us a whole new experience :-) I was asked by Molly if i wanted to be in the Protem committee, I agreed. I was made Asst. Secretary at first, then made into representative for Asia and Juliana, her daughter, became the asst. secretary, all without a word to me! But I think that was probably a good thing, both for the committee and me ;-) We would really like to have you with us and therfore, forgive but do not forget! Come back with your proposals and I am sure they would be welcome. Nandalal Will, I agree that the process we are following is a clunky. My suggestion is let's do what democratic countries do with imperfect constitutions and amend it after we have bootstrapped OSHCA into existencethe US did it so can OHSCA :-). Would you be comfortable boostrapping OSHCA for now and then working to amend the constitution? Given that OSHCA is a democracy we can deal with flaws and omissions more effectively with real voting membership in place. Joseph Will Ross wrote: molly, with all due respect, what is the point of offering opportunities to vote for or against a position if a nay vote is disallowed or prevents the possibility of membership? please explain to me how the loyal opposition can voice their opinion without harassment, retribution, exclusion and expulsion. please review the motions. i approved the creation of the entity, the naming of the entity, and the members of the protem committee, but i opposed submission of the proposed constitution because i consider it to be unnecessarily flawed, and the process to be unnecessarily rushed. i fail to see to see the connection between my nay vote on the constitution and your assertion that i am disallowed to be a founding member. if anything, it is flawed instructions for a meeting process that is interfering with my good faith attempt to openly join oshca. with best regards, [wr] - - - - - - - - On Apr 24, 2006, at 9:00 PM, Molly Cheah wrote: Hi Will, What you have done is incorrect. As you disagree with the constitution, we will not be able to include your name in the list of founding members to the ROS simply because the ROS will not register OSHCA. Therefore there will be no OSHCA for you to be a member of. I am posting this to the openhealth list for the information of others. Molly Will Ross wrote: joseph, not sure if this is correct. [wr] - - - - - - - - will ross project manager mendocino informatics 216 west perkins street, suite 206 ukiah, california 95482 usa 707.462.6369 [office] 707.462.5015 [fax] www.minformatics.com - - - - - - - - Getting people to adopt common standards is impeded by patents. Sir Tim Berners-Lee, BCS, 2006 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/323 - Release Date: 4/24/2006 [wr] - - - - - - - - will ross project manager mendocino informatics 216 west perkins street, suite 206 ukiah, california 95482 usa 707.462.6369 [office] 707.462.5015 [fax
Re: RES: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
john, i'm concerned this message and the assumptions beneath it. i am attempting to join a process that needs to be loosely coupled enough to allow serial participation. stop trying to kick me out of oshca. with best regards, [wr] - - - - - - - - On Apr 25, 2006, at 12:01 PM, John wrote: Dear Will, I understand your concerns. On the other hand, Perfection is the enemy of the good and I believe we should not risk having OSHCA constitution delayed for another couple years... If you choose not to come aboard for now, please send me your suggestions as I will gladly forward them inside OSHCA. But I would rather have you doing that as an OSHCA member. Regards, John --- John Lemos Forman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tecso Informática Ltda. www.tecso.com.br http:// www.tecso.com.br/ Tel: +55 (21) 2224-4643 Fax: +55 (21) 2509-0023 --- _ De: openhealth@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Em nome de Nandalal Gunaratne Enviada em: terça-feira, 25 de abril de 2006 13:30 Para: openhealth@yahoogroups.com Assunto: Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution Joseph Dal Molin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Will, Please forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing ;-) They have not done this before! Perfection is worth striving for, but it is almost never reachable, Therefore it was agreed by most of us that it was OK to get it going and then change it. If this democratic process is not there, and your suggestions for change are not accepted by the others in the future, let us both resign and join another group. The way of holding the meeting looks wiered for most of us, but it is a method that is accesible for all, does not limit us to a time ( I was in the operating theatre for 11 hours today and one surgery was 6 hours. meaning if Molly fixed a video conference at this time, i would not had the opportunity to take part), and gave us a whole new experience :-) I was asked by Molly if i wanted to be in the Protem committee, I agreed. I was made Asst. Secretary at first, then made into representative for Asia and Juliana, her daughter, became the asst. secretary, all without a word to me! But I think that was probably a good thing, both for the committee and me ;-) We would really like to have you with us and therfore, forgive but do not forget! Come back with your proposals and I am sure they would be welcome. Nandalal Will, I agree that the process we are following is a clunky. My suggestion is let's do what democratic countries do with imperfect constitutions and amend it after we have bootstrapped OSHCA into existencethe US did it so can OHSCA :-). Would you be comfortable boostrapping OSHCA for now and then working to amend the constitution? Given that OSHCA is a democracy we can deal with flaws and omissions more effectively with real voting membership in place. Joseph Will Ross wrote: molly, with all due respect, what is the point of offering opportunities to vote for or against a position if a nay vote is disallowed or prevents the possibility of membership? please explain to me how the loyal opposition can voice their opinion without harassment, retribution, exclusion and expulsion. please review the motions. i approved the creation of the entity, the naming of the entity, and the members of the protem committee, but i opposed submission of the proposed constitution because i consider it to be unnecessarily flawed, and the process to be unnecessarily rushed. i fail to see to see the connection between my nay vote on the constitution and your assertion that i am disallowed to be a founding member. if anything, it is flawed instructions for a meeting process that is interfering with my good faith attempt to openly join oshca. with best regards, [wr] - - - - - - - - On Apr 24, 2006, at 9:00 PM, Molly Cheah wrote: Hi Will, What you have done is incorrect. As you disagree with the constitution, we will not be able to include your name in the list of founding members to the ROS simply because the ROS will not register OSHCA. Therefore there will be no OSHCA for you to be a member of. I am posting this to the openhealth list for the information of others. Molly Will Ross wrote: joseph, not sure if this is correct. [wr] - - - - - - - - will ross project manager mendocino informatics 216 west perkins street, suite 206 ukiah, california 95482 usa 707.462.6369 [office] 707.462.5015 [fax] www.minformatics.com - - - - - - - - Getting people to adopt common standards is impeded by patents. Sir Tim Berners-Lee, BCS, 2006 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- -- --- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked
RES: RES: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
Will, I'm sorry if you understood my message as an attempt to kick you out of OSHCA. I meant exactly the opposite. Regards, John --- John Lemos Forman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tecso Informática Ltda. www.tecso.com.br http://www.tecso.com.br/ Tel: +55 (21) 2224-4643 Fax: +55 (21) 2509-0023 --- _ De: openhealth@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Em nome de Will Ross Enviada em: terça-feira, 25 de abril de 2006 16:21 Para: openhealth@yahoogroups.com Assunto: Re: RES: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution john, i'm concerned this message and the assumptions beneath it. i am attempting to join a process that needs to be loosely coupled enough to allow serial participation. stop trying to kick me out of oshca. with best regards, [wr] - - - - - - - - On Apr 25, 2006, at 12:01 PM, John wrote: Dear Will, I understand your concerns. On the other hand, Perfection is the enemy of the good and I believe we should not risk having OSHCA constitution delayed for another couple years... If you choose not to come aboard for now, please send me your suggestions as I will gladly forward them inside OSHCA. But I would rather have you doing that as an OSHCA member. Regards, John --- John Lemos Forman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tecso Informática Ltda. www.tecso.com.br http:// www.tecso.com.br/ Tel: +55 (21) 2224-4643 Fax: +55 (21) 2509-0023 --- _ De: openhealth@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Em nome de Nandalal Gunaratne Enviada em: terça-feira, 25 de abril de 2006 13:30 Para: openhealth@yahoogroups.com Assunto: Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution Joseph Dal Molin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Will, Please forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing ;-) They have not done this before! Perfection is worth striving for, but it is almost never reachable, Therefore it was agreed by most of us that it was OK to get it going and then change it. If this democratic process is not there, and your suggestions for change are not accepted by the others in the future, let us both resign and join another group. The way of holding the meeting looks wiered for most of us, but it is a method that is accesible for all, does not limit us to a time ( I was in the operating theatre for 11 hours today and one surgery was 6 hours. meaning if Molly fixed a video conference at this time, i would not had the opportunity to take part), and gave us a whole new experience :-) I was asked by Molly if i wanted to be in the Protem committee, I agreed. I was made Asst. Secretary at first, then made into representative for Asia and Juliana, her daughter, became the asst. secretary, all without a word to me! But I think that was probably a good thing, both for the committee and me ;-) We would really like to have you with us and therfore, forgive but do not forget! Come back with your proposals and I am sure they would be welcome. Nandalal Will, I agree that the process we are following is a clunky. My suggestion is let's do what democratic countries do with imperfect constitutions and amend it after we have bootstrapped OSHCA into existencethe US did it so can OHSCA :-). Would you be comfortable boostrapping OSHCA for now and then working to amend the constitution? Given that OSHCA is a democracy we can deal with flaws and omissions more effectively with real voting membership in place. Joseph Will Ross wrote: molly, with all due respect, what is the point of offering opportunities to vote for or against a position if a nay vote is disallowed or prevents the possibility of membership? please explain to me how the loyal opposition can voice their opinion without harassment, retribution, exclusion and expulsion. please review the motions. i approved the creation of the entity, the naming of the entity, and the members of the protem committee, but i opposed submission of the proposed constitution because i consider it to be unnecessarily flawed, and the process to be unnecessarily rushed. i fail to see to see the connection between my nay vote on the constitution and your assertion that i am disallowed to be a founding member. if anything, it is flawed instructions for a meeting process that is interfering with my good faith attempt to openly join oshca. with best regards, [wr] - - - - - - - - On Apr 24, 2006, at 9:00 PM, Molly Cheah wrote: Hi Will, What you have done is incorrect. As you disagree with the constitution, we will not be able to include your name in the list of founding members to the ROS simply because the ROS will not register OSHCA. Therefore
Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 23:37 +0100, Thomas Beale wrote: Joseph Dal Molin wrote: Will, why not let the process proceed and see what the results of the votes are? Agreed. I have voiced similar concerns about the current process to the protem and am comfortable going with the flow so OSHCA can incorporate and get to next phase. I've enjoyed the repartee, and as a lapsed perfectionist, I sympathise with the agonising. Yet -- the reality is that we are trying to pull similar wagons in the same direction, this is not a military or terrorist organization, and though we may be accused of religiosity in open-source advocacy, this seems to me not to be a sin. This is why I didn't agonise over the fine print, and plan on sending my ten bucks to whomever wants to have it (I somehow missed seeing the recipient by not reading the fine print carefully enough). Best wishes to all, Dan Johnson md SPONSORED LINKS Software distribution Salon software Medical software Software association Software jewelry Software deployment YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "openhealth" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
Will Ross wrote: nandalal, from the perspective of a simple discussion at a face to face meeting, this is what is happening: we have a motion and a second to approve the 1.0 draft of the constitution. is there any further discussion? Although there was at least a two week opportunity to comment on the draft constitution prior to the meeting, with several messages from Molly reminding us of this fact. as a responsible member of the community i first evaluate whether or not it makes sense to initiate further discussion. deciding that it makes sense to raise the objection, i ask for the floor and state my concern so that my concern is noted as part of the process, even if i have every confidence that the motion will pass over my further discussion. Will, what *is* your concern with the constitution? I don't recall seeing it set out in any of your various posts in the last few days on the process for the inaugural meeting? then, the chair receives a motion to close the discussion, which is seconded and passed. does this disrupt the process or is it a legitimate part of the process? you decide. No, you have not done anything wrong. I agree that the process may be a bit confusing. In retrospect, I think the problem has been that the act of voting for the resolutions and the act of applying for foundation membership have been rolled into a single process. Arguably it would have been better to separate them. In a face-to-face Inaugural Meeting: (0) Prior to the inaugural meeting, some form of discussion forum would be convened to draft a proposed constitution and nominate initial protem office bearers. (1) At the inaugural meeting, some speeches would be made and some time-limited discussion of the resolutions and constitution would be allowed, then votes would be taken on the resolutions to form the organisation with the proposed constitution and officers, and if there were sufficient yeah votes, formation of the organisation could then proceed. I understand that at least seven people are required before an organisation can be registered in Malaysia. (2) If the resolutions were successful (that is the minimum number of yeah votes were received), then an invitation is issued to join the nascent organisation as founding members. An absolutely typical requirement for membership is that the prospective member; a) agrees with the goals of the organisation; and b) that the member agrees to abide by the constitution, rules and regulations of the organisation (in the case of OSHCA, there is only a constitution). Note that members do NOT have to agree with every last word of the constitution, but they must agree to abide by it. That is analogous with national or state law - I don't agree with many of the laws of Australia, but I accept that as a citizen and resident of Australia I must abide by them (often grudgingly, but I still do so). I also accept that I can try to change those laws with which I don't agree through a range of activities, from lobbying political representatives through to direct participation in the political process. The proposed OSHCA constitutions says: 5.1 Membership shall be open to persons interested in furthering the objects of OSHCA and shall consist of anyone who has accepted the premise of OSHCA’s Vision, Mission Statements and Principles by indicating such acceptance via OSHCA’s Internet Registration process. Also implicit in Section 7.4 are the provisions that members must *abide* by the constitution and not bring the organisation into disrepute. Nowhere does it say that members must agree with every last provision or letter of the constitution, just that they must abide by it. Members must, however, accept the OSHCA vision, mission statement and principles. (3) The minutes of the inaugural meeting, the constitution and other documents, the details of the initial office bearers and protem committee, and the details of all the founding members would then be submitted to the relevant national or state authority to allow the organisation to be formally registered. (4) Subsequent meetings would be called to organise elections after as suitable brief delay (to allow more members to join after some promotion and publicity about the organisation) for committee/board members and office bearers, and if members desire it, for modifications to the constitution. Non-members can lobby members to initiate or vote for motions to change the constitution, but can't do so themselves. It is fairly easy to see how the steps taken to found OSHCA as a formal organisation are analogous to the steps set out above, with the exception that the process of voting for or against the resolutions and the process of applying for membership have been conflated. I think that this collective mistake can be easily remedied by inviting a second round of founding membership applications using a form which makes the conditions for membership crystal clear. I think
Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
Will Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will, You are right! The flawed process was an attempt to get the OSHCA formally retgisterd, start a web site and get going. Endless changes and debate are not going to do this. Therefore, with this somewhat awkward, even ridiculous process, we become a formally registered organization. The alternative? Endless debates as to where to register, endless changees to the constitution, exasperating changes of the formalization, dates to have meetings, ways to have the meeting. Molly gives up. No formalization. Nobody to take over the formalization and registration. OSHCA remains what it is. A tiny, very tiny email forum with about 5-7 regular mailers and several lurkers. I give up. OSHCA is all yours! Take it, keep it, own it, mail each other and keep each other happy. Nandalal nandalal, from the perspective of a simple discussion at a face to face meeting, this is what is happening: we have a motion and a second to approve the 1.0 draft of the constitution. is there any further discussion? as a responsible member of the community i first evaluate whether or not it makes sense to initiate further discussion. deciding that it makes sense to raise the objection, i ask for the floor and state my concern so that my concern is noted as part of the process, even if i have every confidence that the motion will pass over my further discussion. then, the chair receives a motion to close the discussion, which is seconded and passed. does this disrupt the process or is it a legitimate part of the process? you decide. [wr] - - - - - - - - On Apr 25, 2006, at 11:20 AM, Nandalal Gunaratne wrote: Fred Trotter wrote: Fred, There was enough time given for dissent/discussion. Molly asked everyone repeatedly to comment on the issues. We can't wait for ever, therefore a time limit was set, and the FINAL draft was set down. Therfore there was really nothing to disagree about! Perhaps, Molly should have removed the disagree part and just left everyone to approve. Will sent his comments once everything was done and over with. Where was he all that time? His late comments would only disrupt a process set in motion in a very democratic manner. If you cannot understand this situation, by all means wait in the sidelines and join when you are happy to do so. Nobody will stop you. See the democracy at work ? :-) Hope to see you back soon, dissenting and arguing! Nandalal OSCHA committee, It is a little troublesome that Will's membership is being discarded along with his comments. Essentially the arguments of the committee is lets get it working and then worry about getting it right. This is fine but I, at least, will have to wait to see it working right before I can toss my hat in the ring. This is not so much a criticism, perhaps the committee has the right idea! But until there is an entity that merits trust (which means having a forum for dissenting supporters) then I will have to stay on the sidelines with (apparently) Will. -- Fred Trotter SynSeer, Consultant http://www.fredtrotter.com http://www.synseer.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] - YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group openhealth on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - - How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links [wr] - - - - - - - - will ross project manager mendocino informatics 216 west perkins street, suite 206 ukiah, california 95482 usa 707.462.6369 [office] 707.462.5015 [fax] www.minformatics.com - - - - - - - - Getting people to adopt common standards is impeded by patents. Sir Tim Berners-Lee, BCS, 2006 - - - - - - - - Yahoo! Groups Links - New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "openhealth" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
I think it will take along time before the value of OSCHA approaches the value of the openhealth list. As long as the lurkers are the right people, they can be very valuable. OpenHealth has been key to the formation of relationships that are actually producing code. My relationship with Will Ross is a good example of this. Will has already done more for FOSS medicine, than just about anyone I know (Of course he competes with other members of the list in that regard). He manages several successful projects in real world environs. Will is a doer, and like many other doers on the list, only rarely enters debates. In any case, be sure NOT to simply discount what he says as irrelevant interferance. As a doer Will is an example of exactly the sort of people who can make your organization valuable. If you feel that it would be wiser to move fast than to further debate, fine, do so. But I would take care to make certain that Ross was included as a dissenting founding member. (If he still wants that) I for one, simply cannot afford to invest much in an organization that is not tangibly moving FOSS forward. Its not that I do not believe in the OSCHA vision, rather that I just spend a little too much time on the bleeding edge as it is. Once you have a meeting that I can attend, with people who are worth meeting attending.. I will be there!!! -- Fred Trotter SynSeer, Consultant http://www.fredtrotter.com http://www.synseer.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "openhealth" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[openhealth] Re: oshca inaugural meeting - constitution
Hi Will, What you have done is incorrect. As you disagree with the constitution, we will not be able to include your name in the list of founding members to the ROS simply because the ROS will not register OSHCA. Therefore there will be no OSHCA for you to be a member of. I am posting this to the openhealth list for the information of others. Molly Will Ross wrote: joseph, not sure if this is correct. [wr] - - - - - - - - will ross project manager mendocino informatics 216 west perkins street, suite 206 ukiah, california 95482 usa 707.462.6369 [office] 707.462.5015 [fax] www.minformatics.com - - - - - - - - Getting people to adopt common standards is impeded by patents. Sir Tim Berners-Lee, BCS, 2006 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.6/323 - Release Date: 4/24/2006 SPONSORED LINKS Software distribution Salon software Medical software Software association Software jewelry Software deployment YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "openhealth" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
