RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

greglow.me > > > > *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@ > ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Greg Keogh > *Sent:* Tuesday, 3 January 2017 8:16 PM > *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> > *Subject:* Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

On Tue., 3 Jan. 2017, 8:07 pm David Connors, wrote: > On Tue., 3 Jan. 2017, 7:16 pm Greg Keogh, wrote: > > Maybe even David C wouldn't turn his nose up at that?! > > > I probably would. But I have a very different set of drivers to most > everyobe else in

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

om: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Keogh Sent: Tuesday, 3 January 2017 8:16 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land Hi Grant et al, You're psychic, as I was going to post on th

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

On Tue., 3 Jan. 2017, 7:16 pm Greg Keogh, wrote: > What I liked about netTiers was that the CRUD was basically table-based > and not over-engineered like many famous ORMs (including EF) and it just > threw a really handy bridge at the lowest useful level between classes and >

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

> > >turn off lazy loading and use eager loading instead. > Hell yeah! > Stored procs are best, of course, as it's often much easier to get stored > proc changes through change control in enterprises than code changes in an > app, which requires virtually a compete redeploy. > Mostly hell

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

I have used Entity Framework myself but generally simply map to stored procs. Some Linq occasionally creeps in, but the biggest gripe I have with EF is the lazy loading. It can get nasty very quickly generating ridiculous amounts of unnecessary traffic as it loads every linked object it comes

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

Hi Grant et al, You're psychic, as I was going to post on this old topic later in the week, as I've rejigged my thinking a little in recent months. I also used CodeSmith to make CRUD for a few good years and I was impressed by how easy it was. I used the netTiers templates, not handmade. What I

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

> *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com <ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> on > behalf of Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) <g...@greglow.com> > *Sent:* Saturday, 17 September 2016 9:03:49 AM > *To:* ozDotNet > *Subject:* RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land > > > Hey Dave an

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

Preach on. On 16 Sep. 2016 10:50 am, "David Connors" wrote: > On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 at 10:33 Greg Keogh wrote: > >> What do you suggest as an alternative? >>> >>> Writing stored procedures. >>> >> >> What about the classical problem of "impedance mismatch".

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

om<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com>> on behalf of Kirsten Greed <kirst...@jobtalk.com.au<mailto:kirst...@jobtalk.com.au>> Sent: Saturday, 1 October 2016 5:26:33 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land That makes sense It would be good to have so

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

ually rather than single query. > > 4. something else. Get rid of EF and hand write SQL. Look for new job > because didn't deliver on time. [image: ] > > > > Feedback, criticism, laughing and pointing all welcomed. > > cheers > > Stephen > --

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

ozdotnet.com>> on behalf of Kirsten Greed <kirst...@jobtalk.com.au<mailto:kirst...@jobtalk.com.au>> Sent: Saturday, 1 October 2016 5:26:33 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land That makes sense It would be good to have some guidelines abo

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

-boun...@ozdotnet.com <ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> on behalf of Corneliu I. Tusnea <corne...@acorns.com.au> Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2016 9:36:09 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land Stephen, My 2 cents without seeing the query. 1. Try to make a view

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

; > cheers > > Stephen > -- > *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com <ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> on > behalf of Kirsten Greed <kirst...@jobtalk.com.au> > *Sent:* Saturday, 1 October 2016 5:26:33 PM > > *To:* 'ozDotNet' > *Subjec

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

--- > *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com <ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> on > behalf of Kirsten Greed <kirst...@jobtalk.com.au> > *Sent:* Saturday, 1 October 2016 5:26:33 PM > > *To:* 'ozDotNet' > *Subject:* RE: Entity Framework - th

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com <ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> on behalf of Kirsten Greed <kirst...@jobtalk.com.au> Sent: Saturday, 1 October 2016 5:26:33 PM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land That makes sense It would be good to have some guidelines

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

: Saturday, 1 October 2016 12:40 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land Agreed but not websites with thousands of concurrent users. The problem is that people don't realise that the same logic doesn't apply in both areas. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

: www.sqldownunder.com<http://www.sqldownunder.com/> | http://greglow.me<http://greglow.me/> From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Kirsten Greed Sent: Saturday, 1 October 2016 6:42 AM To: 'ozDotNet' <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: RE: Entity F

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

Caveat: this is for winforms line of business applications. _ From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Kirsten Greed Sent: Saturday, 1 October 2016 6:35 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: Entity Framework - the lay of the land My 2c Horses for

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

We often rewrite the queries to use TVFs instead Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 10:35 PM +1000, "David Rhys Jones"

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

It's not SQL functions per se but scalar T-SQL functions. They should be inlined like table-valued functions can often be, but they aren't. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web:

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

>> SQL Functions suck. Oh my, they suck and they are hard to fix and cumbersome to figure out where perf is bad. I agree, don't use SQL functions in where clauses, joins or aggregates. It's ok to use if you have a small dataset but otherwise steer clear. Davy *Si hoc legere scis nimium

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

I'll jump in with my experience (just last year). Using EF7 (EF Core 1.0 now?) I always disliked EF version but I liked the original Linq2Sql which was quite lightweight compared to EF. 1. Database design and DTO design is very very strictly monitored and mapping Table > Entity is very

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

otnet.com] *On Behalf Of *David Rhys Jones > *Sent:* Tuesday, 20 September 2016 8:03 PM > > *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> > *Subject:* Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land > > > > > > That's still the best way to update something > > > > Get the ob

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

Oh boy, this is a technique I see way underutilised when using EF: /All objects from EF were transformed into new objects for use in the website /e.g. If I just want a high level list of the product categories a customer has purchased, it's far too easily get stuck in a rigid thought pattern

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

et@ozdotnet.com> Subject: Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land That's still the best way to update something Get the object first, then update that reference, instead of trying to attach a new object with the same Id. There is a performance hit, but you are updating it's not needed to

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

zdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@ > ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *David Rhys Jones > *Sent:* Tuesday, 20 September 2016 7:20 PM > *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> > *Subject:* Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land > > > > > > I've been work

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

ttp://www.sqldownunder.com/> | http://greglow.me<http://greglow.me/> From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Rhys Jones Sent: Tuesday, 20 September 2016 7:20 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: Re: Entity Framework - t

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

I've been working with EF now for a few years, here's a list of what went wrong / what went right. *Large public Website* *Good:* No complex queries in EF, anything more than a couple of tables and a stored procedure is called. All objects from EF were transformed into new objects for

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

On Tue, 20 Sep 2016 at 13:59 Greg Low (罗格雷格博士) wrote: > I often get coy when I hear comparisons with Stack Overflow, Twitter, > Facebook, Blog Engines, etc. though. > > Most of those platforms are happy to just throw away transactions when the > going gets heavy. > Also, most

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

bounces@ > ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Scott Barnes > *Sent:* Tuesday, 20 September 2016 1:42 PM > *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> > *Subject:* Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land > > > > Entity Framework was born out of many attempts to solve the

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

et.com> Subject: Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land Entity Framework was born out of many attempts to solve the DAL tier to enable developers to have to avoid talking to DBA's directly. The amount of churn its gone through and the level of pain it rewards doesn't seem imho to jus

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

2016 1:33 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land To give more info, 99% of the CUD was done via NHibernate. For simple select queries like for lookup lists was also done via NHibernate, using the built in caching and Redis cache, but more compli

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

To give more info, 99% of the CUD was done via NHibernate. For simple select queries like for lookup lists was also done via NHibernate, using the built in caching and Redis cache, but more complicated queries were straight SQL and PetaPoco. Craig On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Craig van

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

Not EF but have used NHibernate in application, in conjunction with optimised SQL where required, and easily supported 1000+ users. But it is very easy to stuff it up and find you can't support 5 simultaneous users. Even StackOverflow before it used Dapper used LinqToSql. Of course, they had to

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

rom: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Monday, 19 September 2016 5:15 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> Subject: RE: Entity Framework - the lay

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

zdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Monday, 19 September 2016 5:15 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land A large bank (like one of the Big4 in Aus) has a staggering number of applicat

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

that might be available. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Low (??) Sent: Monday, 19 September 2016 3:23 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land People always use banks as the can

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

er.com/> | http://greglow.me<http://greglow.me/> From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price Sent: Monday, 19 September 2016 1:50 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

: www.sqldownunder.com<http://www.sqldownunder.com/> | http://greglow.me<http://greglow.me/> From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Monday, 19 September 2016 12:34 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: Re

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

Correct, in a web app for example, you can often do very short lived caching for the life of a request. On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Tony Wright wrote: > I do like caching. And you often don't need to cache for very long anyway > to get significant benefits. > T. > >

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

used ORM caching functionlity and probably never will. > > > > - Glav > > > > *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-bounces@ > ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Greg Keogh > *Sent:* Monday, 19 September 2016 10:38 AM > *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@o

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

net@ozdotnet.com> Subject: Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land I had an argument internally that caching was good, with the alternate side saying that “cache invalidation” was hard so they never use it. I think it is "hard" but don't write it off completely. Search for &quo

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

> > I had an argument internally that caching was good, with the alternate > side saying that “cache invalidation” was hard so they never use it. > I think it is "hard" but don't write it off completely. Search for "second level cache" and you'll see it's not that trivial to use properly. Some

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

un...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Greg Low (??) Sent: Sunday, 18 September 2016 11:47 AM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land Three other key aspects of this: If your table design matches your obj

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

Simple examples are anything many to many. If I have passengers on flights, I might have a Flights table, a Passengers table and perhaps some sort of FlightManifests table (who's on which flights). But I sure wouldn't want those three as objects. I'd probably want a Passenger object with a

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

:-) Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: www.sqldownunder.com On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 5:57 PM +1000, "noonie" > wrote: How

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

How to bridge the app/db gap, simple, learn about your enemy & make her your friend. Cooperate, Communicate, Collaborate Sometimes it works ;-) -- noonie On 18 September 2016 at 14:28, Greg Keogh wrote: > GL > > If your table design matches your object design, at least

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

GL If your table design matches your object design, at least one of them is a > poor design (again I'm talking about serious apps). > Then there's no hope. Game over man! It was easier for Jeff Goldblum to plug his laptop into an alien mothership that it is for coders and DBAs to exchange data

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

博士) <g...@greglow.com<mailto:g...@greglow.com>> Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2016 11:11 AM Subject: RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> And if you have two days free on 28th/29th of this mont

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

tNet Subject: RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land Hey Dave and all, “The great” -> hardly but thanks Dave. Look, my issues with many of these ORMs are many. Unfortunately, I spend my life on the back end of trying to deal with the messes involved. The following are the key is

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

the code to a natively-compiled stored procedure, it runs in 60 > milliseconds. > > > > If you are building toy apps ie: a replacement for CardFile, none of this > matters but I live in a world where it really, really matters. And so do > the vast majority of software houses that I sp

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

et <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land Hey Dave and all, “The great” -> hardly but thanks Dave. Look, my issues with many of these ORMs are many. Unfortunately, I spend my life on the back end of trying to deal with the messes involved. The following are

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:20 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 at 11:56 Greg Keogh <gfke...@gmail.com<mailto:gfke...@gmail.com>> wrote: The people who think that

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 at 13:36 Greg Keogh wrote: > >> >>> What can bridge the "impedance" gap? Something has to. >>> >> >> I agree. It is called effort. >> > > Come on David ... *effort* into what exactly? What tool, technology, kit, > gizmo? I need more detail. I'm a coder.

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

If your project has a database and you are not using a Database Project you are missing out, and causing yourself a lot of unnecessary pain. It basically just organises your schema files to make them easy to maintain, like cs files in a c# project. It has tools to do comparisons and schema updates

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

> > > >> What can bridge the "impedance" gap? Something has to. >> > > I agree. It is called effort. > Come on David ... *effort* into what exactly? What tool, technology, kit, gizmo? I need more detail. I'm a coder. I've got to drag stuff in and out of databases that I don't own and didn't

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 at 11:56 Greg Keogh wrote: > The people who think that ORMs are a good idea have a code-centric view of >> the world. >> > > Stored procs! > I know, right? Finally, someone who shares my enthusiasm! [ ... ] > Databases are unlikely to have a structure

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

Even full stack has its problems. It's that whole "generalist" vs "specialist" argument - sure you can do a bit of everything, but in doing that, can you actually devote yourself to becoming a master in something? Pretty hard to do. It's yet another flaw in Agile I think. And that said, that's

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

Document/Object DBs are kind of the solution for that, however, they still need to be managed. Grow a beard and become "full-stack". On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 11:56 AM, Greg Keogh wrote: > The people who think that ORMs are a good idea have a code-centric view of >> the world.

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

> > The people who think that ORMs are a good idea have a code-centric view of > the world. > Stored procs! Here's the black hole of the argument. To me it's a simple reductionist problem... Clean-shaven code-centric people write real-world apps. Beardy DBAs design databases. Coders need

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

Entertaining reply, as always David. [] made my morning. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com <ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com> on behalf of David Connors <da...@connors.com> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 8:50:30 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: Enti

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

PetaPoco or Dapper are not really an ORM like EF or NHibernate. You can write SQL or a stored proc and all it really does is map it to a POCO for ease of use in the C# code. I have not really touched a DataSet or DataAdapter directly for years. On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 10:51 AM, Greg Keogh

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

They did it to reduce the number of errors found at runtime. The errors are found at compile time with orms. Dapper is another micro-orm that's worth looking at. On 16 Sep 2016 10:40 AM, "Craig van Nieuwkerk" wrote: > Using something like PetaPoco makes that pretty easy. > >

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

I haven't had significant problems that I haven't been able to fix. That said, I think they're marking the current as Stable and just working on features of EF Core now, which isn't as complete by far yet. On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 10:40 AM, Craig van Nieuwkerk wrote: > Using

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

> > Using something like PetaPoco makes that pretty easy. > Okay, I never saw that before. It's still and ORM, albeit a small one. At a glance at the home page, you're coding SQL statements inside code (tight coupling), it's not a LINQ provider at all, and it uses T4 templates (like EF does

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 at 10:33 Greg Keogh wrote: > What do you suggest as an alternative? >> >> Writing stored procedures. >> > > What about the classical problem of "impedance mismatch". You have to > carefully maintain DataSets or similar and use DataAdapter to fill them, >

RE: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

Or Dapper (https://github.com/StackExchange/dapper-dot-net) From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Craig van Nieuwkerk Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 12:40 p.m. To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Subject: Re: Entity Framework - t

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

Using something like PetaPoco makes that pretty easy. > What about the classical problem of "impedance mismatch". You have to > carefully maintain DataSets or similar and use DataAdapter to fill them, > then writing data back is a circus trick with the ADO.NET classes. Then > they invented

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

> > What do you suggest as an alternative? > > Writing stored procedures. > What about the classical problem of "impedance mismatch". You have to carefully maintain DataSets or similar and use DataAdapter to fill them, then writing data back is a circus trick with the ADO.NET classes. Then they

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 at 10:08 Greg Keogh wrote: > What type of projects is EF not suitable for? >>> >> Ones that run on computers. >> > > What do you suggest as an alternative? > Writing stored procedures. David. -- David Connors da...@connors.com | @davidconnors | LinkedIn

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

> > What type of projects is EF not suitable for? >> > Ones that run on computers. > What do you suggest as an alternative? *GK*

Re: Entity Framework - the lay of the land

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 at 09:55 David Apelt wrote: > What type of projects is EF not suitable for? > Ones that run on computers. *Mr Connors thinks back to all the times he's been told he is wrong on this list for saying ORMs and their ilk are sh!t* David. -- David