Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Ali A Khanban]

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 21:28, Ali A Khanban wrote:
 

Again, I'd like to know if other Arabic-based scripts, such as Pashto 
and Ordu, call themselves "Arabic script" in their locale.
   

There doesn't exist a standardized locale for Urdu (or any non-standard
one I may know of), but Pashto has one (which I helped prepare and is
approved by their ministry of communication), and calls the script
Arabic.
 

Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count.
-ali-
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||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Ali A. Khanban]

Hi,
Have a look at:
http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=ar&d_=en_US&_r=IR&;
Maybe we need to submit the draft version to correct this. Anyway, as 
long as there is a note, it should be OK to refer to script as Arabic, 
though I still prefer something like "Perso-Arabic".

Best
-ali-
C Bobroff wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
 

Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count.
   

Do a google search for "pashto perso-arabic" to see that many authors
think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script.
Then do a google search for "pashto arabic script" and you'll see with
just a quick glance that most further explain that it is *modified* Arabic
script or called *Perso-Arabic.*
If you're writing in English, you'd better not say simply "Arabic script."
-Connie
 

--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Ali A. Khanban]

Thanks. BTW, in locale, I noticed that there is no "am" and "pm" for 
time, and it is only 24 hour time in Iran. I remember two words 
"baamdaam" and "ba'd az zohr" were used by radio/tv presenters most of 
the time. Of course people always use "ba'd az zohr", but rarely "baamdaad".

I think deleting 12 hour clock is not fair. We could use the current 
entries in AM&PM part of the locale in the following link, that you sent me.

Best
-ali-
Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
I don't know how you got to the page, but it is about the the Arabic
*language* in Iran. The (almost) correct Persian page is at:
http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=fa_IR
(which is done partially by me.)
roozbeh
On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 05:01, Ali A. Khanban wrote:
 

Hi,
Have a look at:
http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=ar&d_=en_US&_r=IR&;
Maybe we need to submit the draft version to correct this. Anyway, as 
long as there is a note, it should be OK to refer to script as Arabic, 
though I still prefer something like "Perso-Arabic".

Best
-ali-
C Bobroff wrote:
   

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
 

Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count.
  

   

Do a google search for "pashto perso-arabic" to see that many authors
think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script.
Then do a google search for "pashto arabic script" and you'll see with
just a quick glance that most further explain that it is *modified* Arabic
script or called *Perso-Arabic.*
If you're writing in English, you'd better not say simply "Arabic script."
-Connie
 

 

--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Personal names survey

[Ali A. Khanban]

C Bobroff wrote:
The "streets" stuff was a joke and I'm afraid I led Ordak on--no pun
intended-- a wild-goose chase, (sorry!) but here are some from published
books:
http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNRahimEM.jpg
 

This is an example of an extremist. Talking about extrimists, I remember 
a book that was written with capital letters (Persian Letters) from left 
to right. I call it an extra-extra-extremist.

http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNNaaserEKh.jpg
 

In the same picture, you see that all other names are written without 
"kasre". The "Naaser Khosrow" case is a bit different, as it is not a 
name and family name with a "kasre" in between. There are a few cases of 
writing it as "Naaser-e Khosrow".

http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg
 

Only one name comes with "ye badal az kasre", which is a bit odd. It 
might be a typo in her name or in her ID. In the second case, she should 
be called based on her ID, unless she changes it.

Best
-ali-
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||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
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Re: Personal names survey

[Ali A. Khanban]

C Bobroff wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Ali A. Khanban wrote:
 

http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg
 

Only one name comes with "ye badal az kasre", which is a bit odd. It
might be a typo in her name or in her ID.
   

Concerning the Hamze Above instead of Kasre, I was just wanting to show
that the "-e"  (ezaafe) is written as well as spoken.  The ezafe on words
ending with unpronounced Heh (as in Ma`sumeh) is marked  either as
Heh+Hamze Above or Heh+ZWNJ+Yeh and in words ending with pronounced Heh
(as in Roozbeh) is marked with Kasre. Again, in the case of personal
names, the ezaafe is sometimes pronounced and sometimes not pronounced.
This is also sometimes optionally reflected in the writing.
 

Sure. No argument about that. "ye badal az kasre" is used, as we all 
know, when the first word ends in "aa", "oo", "unpronounced Heh", ... 
BTW, talking about "unpronounced Heh", recently I found out that in the 
first year of school, they don't call it like that any more. They call 
it "e-ye aakher". Anyway, in a general way, we can consider it a "kasre".

I was told to give examples of the ezaafe written in personal names. I
don't think that was supposed to be limited to only when ezaafe is marked
with kasre. I might have misunderstood your comment though!
 

Of course not. It didn't matter if it was "Ma'soome-ye ..." or "Maryam-e 
...". In both cases I repeat my argument. But if it wasn't "ye badal az 
kasre", I wouldn't call it an ID typo, but just a typo.

Best
-ali-
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||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
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Re: Personal names survey

[Ali A. Khanban]

Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
The bottom line:  Thanks Connie, you showed us that there are
people printing that thing in reality.  I don't like to argue
about how widely it's used anymore.  If someone has an evidence
of Persian Academy putting this Kasre, please bring the issue up
again for our reconsideration.
As long as I remember, there has been a rule 'no "kasre" between name 
and family', and there was never anything in favour of "kasra" in this 
particular case. These examples, thanks to Connie, shows only some 
extreme cases, or typos. I, personally, need to see some linguists in 
favour of using "kasre".

Best
-ali-
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||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
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Behaviour of U+002F in IE and Mozilla

[Ali A. Khanban]

Hi,
Since the Arabic thousand separator, U+066B, is not commonly in use, 
most of Persian sites use "/", U+002F, instead. The behaviour, when it 
is used between numbers, is different in IE (and MS Office) and Mozilla. 
Which one is the correct one?

Best
-ali-
--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Miscellaneous web issues

[Ali A. Khanban]

Ehsan Akhgari wrote:
I would appreciate if you send me the exact process you used and the
DLL, so we can publish it on the FarsiWeb website on SourceForge.
   

OK.  I send the step-by-step process on the list, and will send you the
relevant files off-list, so that you can put them on sourceforge.
...
I'm sending to Roozbeh two files: Persian-src-1_0_3_14.zip which contains
the modified source files, and Persian-1_0_3_14.zip which contains the DLL
plus the installer, which I guess he'd make available through the
sourceforge.
 

Roozbeh, it is a long time and I don't remember your answer to this 
email. What happened to this new dll?

Best
-ali-
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||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
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Re: The New Alef

[Ali A. Khanban]

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
On Wed, 2005-02-23 at 07:57 -0600, Connie Bobroff wrote:
 

Quoting Roozbeh Pournader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
   

There has been a new Alef around for quite a while. 
 

Why do you say "new?" Alef is always written out that way as in
"numbered lists," 
   

Umm..., because they connect the Alef to the Lam at the top and cut the
Feh short? I have never seen it like that in a numbered list.
 

It just makes it more like one character, and it needs less space, 
especially on the car number plates.

Best
-khanban-
--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Number display in Firefox

[Ali A. Khanban]

I agree with Roozbeh. It also uses Arabic shapes of numbers, which is 
not suitable for Persian texts. But it is good to know about this 
feature, anyway.

Best
-ali-
Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
This behavior is of course considered very bad practice, and is not
recommended in any standards. It would also limit one to be able to
display European numbers at all.
So, I would recommend not to turn on the feature, and nag to the
webadmins instead to use Persian digits in their Persian documents.
roozbeh
On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 21:31 +0430, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:
 

Hi all,
I just found something cool in Firefox which I had not come across 
before, and thought some of you guys might not know it as well.  As far 
as I can tell this is related to Gecko, so it must affect all Mozilla 
based applications, though I have not tested it anywhere except Firefox 1.0.

The default rendering behavior for numbers appearing inside Persian text 
in Mozilla is to show them as Latin digits (1 2 3 ...), though in IE it 
depends on the context (whether the direction of the containing text is 
rtl or ltr.)  To make Firefox respect the direction of the text in this 
regard, you can add the following line to your user.js file:

user_pref("bidi.numeral", 1);
which sets the number rendering mode to "context."  This enables ASCII 
digits entered inside Persian text to be rendered as Persian numbers (Û 
Û Û ...)  Of course this does not affect the behavior of rendering 
numbers explicitly entered using Unicode character codes.

FWIW,
Ehsan
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|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (20) 7594 8241   Fax: +44 870 130 7263
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Re: Using of U+066C as a number-separator

[Ali A. Khanban]

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

On Thu, 2004-01-08 at 18:14, AmirBehzad Eslami wrote:
 

But don't you think shape of U+066C is very similar to sign of 'foot'
and 'minute'?
(http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/afgDecSep.JPG)
   

Depends on the font. Compare with
, for example.
 

I know it is kind of personal preferences, but I was wondering whether a 
right-faced comma-shaped character is suitable for the thousand 
separator. I read from right to left when I see such glyph. Because 
numbers are written and read from left to right, maybe a 180 rotation to 
this character makes it more suitable.

Best
-khanban-
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||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Using of U+066C as a number-separator

[Ali A. Khanban]

Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Ali A. Khanban wrote:

 

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
   

On Thu, 2004-01-08 at 18:14, AmirBehzad Eslami wrote:

 

But don't you think shape of U+066C is very similar to sign of 'foot'
and 'minute'?
(http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/afgDecSep.JPG)
   

Depends on the font. Compare with
<http://www.bamdad.org/~roozbeh/thsep.png>, for example.
 

I know it is kind of personal preferences, but I was wondering whether a
right-faced comma-shaped character is suitable for the thousand
separator. I read from right to left when I see such glyph. Because
numbers are written and read from left to right, maybe a 180 rotation to
this character makes it more suitable.
   

It's a valid point.  But I prefer it mirrored, not rotated.

behdad
 

Mirrored is even better. It is more similar to the way I usually 
separate them in handwriting. Put the pen on a paper and then move it to 
the top and left, a natural number separator! Don't ask me for 
references, but I have seen many old people who use such a symbol for 
separating the thousands.

Best
-khanban-
--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: FarsiFonts 0.3 (beta)

[Ali A. Khanban]

Hi,

I had a chance to test the six new fonts (Homa, Koodak, Nazli, Roya, 
Terafik, Titr) briefly.
I have some points:

1. Arabic Hamza Above (U+0654), Arabic Hamza Below (U+0655), Arabic 
Subscript Alef (U+0656) and Arabic Maddah Above (U+0653) behave 
differently from Arabic Fatha and so on. They behave more like a letter. 
Also, try as an example the result of Arabic Letter Waw (U+0648) + 
Arabic Hamza Above (U+0654) compared to Arabic Letter Waw With Hamza 
Above (U+0624).
2. Arabic Letter Alef Maksura (U+0649) in initial and middle form is 
shown incorrectly as single and end form (the same as famous Farsi Yeh 
problem).

BTW, all the numerals are the same shape in different fonts.

Best
-ali-
Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

A new beta version (0.3) of FarsiWeb project's Persian fonts is now
available. This contains various improvements to the 0.2 version, and
contains new fonts Terafik (normal and bold) and Nazli (named so because
of a trademark problem with the name "Nazanin").
Also, Terafik and Titr fonts now contain embedded bitmaps at certain
sizes to ease readablity on displays, which will make them more suitable
for web use.
According to our best knowledge, FarsiFonts are the first Unicode
compliant versions of these fonts, and the first set of fonts ever to
conform to the Iranian national standard ISIRI 6219. The fonts currently
support the Persian, Arabic, and Azerbaijani languages (as written in
the Arabic script).
This is a beta release and contains known bugs, so use the fonts at your
own risk. But we appreciate bug reports or requests for enhancements.
Bug reports should be sent to the email address "[EMAIL PROTECTED]".
(Please note that we cannot answer all the emails sent to the address.)
You can download your copy from:

	http://www.farsiweb.info/font/farsifonts-0.3.zip

The fonts are conforming to the Unicode, ISIRI 6219, OpenType, and Adobe
glyph naming standards as much as possible. The support will increase in
newer versions, which will contain more fonts, more glyphs, and most
importantly, better support for small sizes for selected fonts which
make them suitable for web use.
You can freely share and distribute all of the fonts, if you don't sell
them directly (with no accompanying software), or change or rename them.
Some of these fonts are licensed under the GNU General Public License
(http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html#GPL), which will give you
even more rights as a user and developer. For more details, see the
license field of the fonts themselves, and the file COPYING or
COPYING.txt in the zip file. Other kinds of licensing is also available
from Sharif FarsiWeb Inc, which can be contacted at "[EMAIL PROTECTED]".
The FarsiFonts project is sponsored by the High Council of Informatics
of Iran (http://www.shci.ir/) and Sharif University of Technology
(http://www.sharif.edu/). We wish to thank them for supporting standards
and free software.
I finally wish to thank Elnaz Sarbar, Behnam Esfahbod, Behnam Pournader,
Aidin Nassiri, Behdad Esfahbod, and Alireza Kheirkhahan for their work
on the fonts. This was impossible without their labors.
Roozbeh Pournader,
Sharif FarsiWeb Inc
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|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: English-Persian dictionary on your site (fwd)

[Ali A. Khanban]

Hi,

Since I was involved in some part of this story, I can give some 
information. About 11-12 years ago, there was a dictionary on DOS 
written by someone I don't exactly remember his name. There wasn't any 
copy right involved, as long as I remember. I decoded the data and 
extracted it. That was based on Arianpour. Then I modified data and 
corrected it as much as I could. Masood Hashemi was our expert 
programmer in FoxPro. So, he wrote a dictionary using FoxPro and I 
provided the data. A copy of this dictionary should still be available. 
I am not sure, but I guess this is the data Masood used for his online 
dictionary.

For the dictionary on SchoolNet, I don't know what happened when I left 
Computing Centre of Sharif Univ more three years ago. It is possible 
they have used the same data.

Best
-khanban-
Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

Hi again list,

I am forwarding response I got from Dr Pedram Safari which seems
to be hosting Massoud Hashemi's dictionary.  Please CC him in
replies.
I would reply in a few days with a conclusion on the thread after
we read other peoples opinions.  Perhaps those friends in Iran
that have access to Aryanpour hardcopy can spend a few minutes to
confirm that the dictionary at http://www.math.columbia.edu/~safari/dictionary/
contains the Aryanpour data.  You can do this by randomly
selecting a few words (10) and confirm that the meaning matches
word by word in it's order and eveything.
Roozbeh, can you please explain the Iranian copyright laws one
more time?
Thanks
behdad
-- Forwarded message --
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 04:53:31 -0500
From: Pedram Safari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Behdad Esfahbod 
Subject: Re: English-Persian dictionary on your site
Dear Behdad Esfahbod,

Thank you for your interest in the English-Persian dictionary on my
homepage. Let me first tell you that I am not aware of the copyright
status of the dictionary, I am just hosting Masood's program. I am also
not aware of the inquiry you are talking about. But I can tell you a few
facts, if that helps.
First, I know that Masood himself wrote the script that runs the
dictionary -- I can testify to that. I do not know how he has obtained the
database, if he has entered that himself manually or he has received it
from other sources. I also think he had once told me that the data is
based on Aryanpour's dictionary, but I was not in a position to verify
that, so I preferred not to advertise the dictionary using Aryanpours'
popularity.
Next thing I can assure you of is that I personally gave the source file
of Masood's program, including the database, to people in the Computing
Center of Sharif University of Technology (either to Majid Khanban or to
Rouzbeh Pournader). I gave the source files to them based on Masood's
permission. They said they wanted to write a php file to better suit their
website, which was OK with us.
These are the facts. After a while they put up an English-Persian
dictionary (on the schoolnet site, I suppose), without giving Masood any
credit. I can think that they have used the database as well, but I can
not be sure.
In any case, I guess there is no copyright law being enforced in our
country, but I am certainly not in favor of plagiarism, so if you can
prove to me that there is a theft involved, I will take necessary action.
I am also quite curious about the source of the dictionary on schoolnet.
You may circulate this e-mail to people who might be interested, but on
two conditions. To avoid any abuse, no part of this message should be
deleted during the circulation and it should go around in its entirety. I
should also receive any reply or comment relate to this issue.
Best
Pedram
 

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||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
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Re: English-Persian dictionary on your site

[Ali A. Khanban]

Hi,

Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

As I explained in depth in another mail, it looks to be from the

"yekjeldi" Aryanpour dictionary.  Which edition, we still don't
know.
As I mentioned in my last email, in the original software it was claimed 
to be based on Arianpour. It was one-volume edition of Arianpour and at 
the time we checked a few words with the book at it seemed correct. 
Don't forget that I had modified the data before using it in the new 
dictionary and there have been some added words, too.

Best
-khanban-
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|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
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Re: English-Persian dictionary on your site

[Ali A. Khanban]

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

On Thu, 2004-03-04 at 16:38, Ali A. Khanban wrote:
 

About 11-12 years ago, there was a dictionary on DOS 
written by someone I don't exactly remember his name. There wasn't any 
copy right involved, as long as I remember. I decoded the data and 
extracted it. That was based on Arianpour. Then I modified data and 
corrected it as much as I could.
   

I don't understand how it had no copyright problem and at the same time
was based on Aryanpour.
 

I don't know about the copy right problem between Arianpour and the 
original software. All I know was that the original software didn't come 
with an EULA or something similar.

-khanban-

--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: English-Persian dictionary on your site

[Ali A. Khanban]

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

On Fri, 2004-03-05 at 16:14, Ali A. Khanban wrote:

on't forget that I had modified the data before using it in the new 
dictionary and there have been some added words, too.
   

That doesn't make the copying legal, unfortunately.
 

I know. I just mentioned this to explain the source of some differences 
between that data and the original Arianpour book.

-khanban-

--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

[Ali A. Khanban]

Hi,

Is there any statistics about the percentage of users who have no 
problem reading Farsi Yeh and Keh? If not, I wonder if someone can set 
up a poll on this subject. It can simply contain two sentences, one 
written with standard characters like "?? ???" and the other with a 
mixture of Arabic and Farsi like "?? ???". They should seem identical 
for those with correct fonts. It is possible to have more than one poll 
for more common fonts such as Tahoma and Time New Roman.

Best
-ali-
C Bobroff wrote:

Thanks, everyone for the WEFT feedback.  I feel better now having
investigated the WEFT option.  I also reported our findings to the
developers. Looks like they are not getting much feedback for Persian.
To summarize:
Weft seems to work reliably for all fonts On WinXP/IE6.0.
With Win2000, results vary but it does work sometimes with IE6.0
With Win98, IE6.0 is definitely required, however only the Koodak font
(and presumably the other FarsiWeb fonts) will work for Persian.
Interestingly, the Latin subset of Tahoma and Arabic Typesetting, (even
the characters with diacritics) also works.
Since according to our feedback and also
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
it looks like Weft should work on at least 50% of computers (I'm being
generous here!!) so I think we can say this is definitely a good
alternative to asking the user to download and install a font.
I'm not saying this is the best solution but it is one solution that we
see does work right now until further improvements are made in Persian
typography.
Thanks again for the feedback and comments!
-Connie
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|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

[Ali A. Khanban]

Hi,

Is there any statistics about the percentage of users who have no 
problem reading Farsi Yeh and Keh? If not, I wonder if someone can set 
up a poll on this subject. It can simply contain two sentences, one 
written with standard characters like "ÛÚ ÚÙÛ" and the other with a 
mixture of Arabic and Farsi like "ÙÚ ÙÙÙ". They should seem identical 
for those with correct fonts. It is possible to have more than one poll 
for more common fonts such as Tahoma and Time New Roman.

Best
-ali-
C Bobroff wrote:

Thanks, everyone for the WEFT feedback.  I feel better now having
investigated the WEFT option.  I also reported our findings to the
developers. Looks like they are not getting much feedback for Persian.
To summarize:
Weft seems to work reliably for all fonts On WinXP/IE6.0.
With Win2000, results vary but it does work sometimes with IE6.0
With Win98, IE6.0 is definitely required, however only the Koodak font
(and presumably the other FarsiWeb fonts) will work for Persian.
Interestingly, the Latin subset of Tahoma and Arabic Typesetting, (even
the characters with diacritics) also works.
Since according to our feedback and also
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
it looks like Weft should work on at least 50% of computers (I'm being
generous here!!) so I think we can say this is definitely a good
alternative to asking the user to download and install a font.
I'm not saying this is the best solution but it is one solution that we
see does work right now until further improvements are made in Persian
typography.
Thanks again for the feedback and comments!
-Connie
--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

[Ali A Khanban]

Hi,

IE6.0 on Win2K: OK
Mozilla1.7RC1 on Win2K: OK (but the font of Arabic typesetting is very big!)
And I suppose the English translation of Bushaq poem is written in 
Koodak font (not in Tahoma as it says).

Another point is: why is it ØØØ instead of ØØØ and ÚØØ instead of ÚØØ?

Best
-ali-
C Bobroff wrote:

We've had a few discussions about WEFT before in the past but never really
explored it completely.  Therefore, I made this demo page in both
English and Persian and embedded Tahoma, Koodak(by FarsiWeb) and Arabic
Typesetting:
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/weft.htm
Can you please check if Weft has worked? Do you see my fonts correctly?
Is the Yeh (medial form) showing up correctly in all fonts, especially on
Win98? Is the load time any longer than usual? If you have the old, buggy
Tahoma font, is my corrected font showing up instead?  If you have the old
Sinasoft or Borna Koodak, is my FarsiWeb Koodak showing up?
Please report your findings! Be sure to mention which version of Windows
and IE. By the way, you have to uninstall these fonts if you have them,
otherwise, the test is not too helpful :)
As you may know, Weft only works on Windows and IE so don't bother to
check on anything else.  Also please don't look at the source code! I was
in a great hurry and yes, it's a mess.  Anyone who is qualified is welcome
to redo it if too unbearable.  I would appreciate that!
Thanks!
-Connie
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|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

[Ali A Khanban]

Actually, Mozilla1.7RC1 doesn't show the embedded fonts! It seems using 
Times New Roman instead of missing fonts.

Best
-ali-
C Bobroff wrote:

We've had a few discussions about WEFT before in the past but never really
explored it completely.  Therefore, I made this demo page in both
English and Persian and embedded Tahoma, Koodak(by FarsiWeb) and Arabic
Typesetting:
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/weft.htm
Can you please check if Weft has worked? Do you see my fonts correctly?
Is the Yeh (medial form) showing up correctly in all fonts, especially on
Win98? Is the load time any longer than usual? If you have the old, buggy
Tahoma font, is my corrected font showing up instead?  If you have the old
Sinasoft or Borna Koodak, is my FarsiWeb Koodak showing up?
Please report your findings! Be sure to mention which version of Windows
and IE. By the way, you have to uninstall these fonts if you have them,
otherwise, the test is not too helpful :)
As you may know, Weft only works on Windows and IE so don't bother to
check on anything else.  Also please don't look at the source code! I was
in a great hurry and yes, it's a mess.  Anyone who is qualified is welcome
to redo it if too unbearable.  I would appreciate that!
Thanks!
-Connie
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||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Iranian Calendar

[Ali A Khanban]

Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
On Sat, 15 May 2004, C Bobroff wrote:
 

Can you please be sure to mention in the documentation somewhere also
about the Shaahanshaahi calendar and how to convert and what's its
official name was and abbreviations, if any? That will be nice if that
system also makes its way into online conversion tools. It's a real
problem in places like Academic libraries when someone is, for example
told to catalog a book and there is something like "2536" which appears to
be a date, yet there is often no abbreviation or calendar  designation and
the poor cataloger has to run around looking for an expert and waste a lot
of time.
   

Well, Hamed, you take care of this too, right? :).
BTW, the rule is simply that 2535 maps to 1355 IIRC, or was it
1350?  So a simple shift is enough.
 

"Shaahanshaahi calendar" was introduced in 1355 and abolished in 1357. 
It was simply a map:
Add 1180 to "Iranian" calendar".

Best
-ali-
--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Iranian Calendar

[Ali A Khanban]

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
On Mon, 2004-05-17 at 15:39, Ali A Khanban wrote:
 

"Shaahanshaahi calendar" was introduced in 1355 and abolished in 1357. 
   

When exactly? I know that not all of 1357 was known as "2537".
 

In Early 1357 it was abolished. Does it really matter? It is only a 
historical interest. The important thing is how to convert it. Because, 
in those two years, many date references were converted to 
"Shaahanshaahi calendar". So, we have some dates like "Shahrivar-e 2500" 
or "Mordaad-e 2512" and so on.

Of course, it is possible to find the exact date, for example by looking 
at the archive of "Ettela'at" or "Kayhan" newspapers, and see when the 
date in their title changes. Unfortunately, I don't have access to them 
at the moment, maybe later.

Best
-ali-
roozbeh
 

--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Persian-English Dictionary

[Ali A Khanban]

Hi,
I just repeat an old story again. I don't want to prove or disprove or 
claim anything.

About ten years ago, there was a dictionary in DOS environment written 
by Bahman Sabouri (if I recall correctly) with a database claimed to be 
based on Aryanpour dictionary. I can accpet that claim because I checked 
many of its entries against a one-volume Aryanpour dictionary and it 
seemed to be the right source (One-volume Aryanpour dictionary by 
AmirKabir publishing co.). It has the ability to add words to the 
database. By the time I had that copy of the software, the database had 
some extra words added by previous users. I decoded the database and 
created a text file. Then I started to modify it and correct mis-spelled 
words and typos and anything I thought must be changed. I didn't intend 
to do anything with it at the time. I did it just out of curiosity and 
challenge. Masood Hashemi was and is a friend of mine and was our FoxPro 
master in the department. We decided to use that data for a FoxPro 
dictionary and he did the job. Because I was the one who somehow had 
provided the data and he was the programmer, both of our names were in 
the program as the authors. I saw a copy of that program a few years ago 
in Shiraz, in one of my visits to Shiraz medical university.

Now, if we accept that the data in Masood Hashemi's online dictionary is 
the same data, which is a strong guess, then by this short history you 
know exactly how that was provided. I should add that at the time of 
that DOS software, we were not aware of any possible copy right on this 
data, as I believe neither was the original author. Or maybe the fact 
was that no one cared about it, even AmirKabir publishing co. who was 
the Aryanpour publisher. I am not sure, anyway.

Best
-ali-
Pedram Safari wrote:
In any case, I would like to testify again that the "program" is written
by Masood Hashemi, so there is no copyright infringement if his share in
this work, and his willingness to make it available to the public, is
acknowledged and appreciated. There has been no official claim yet by
anyone on the source of the "database" (I think Majid Khanban said that he supervised a project by Masood Hashemi and someone else from which this database came out, but he couldn't recall the name of the other person, am I right, Majid?). Neither any official claim by anyone on the dictionary "content", unless you, Behdad, are Aryanpours' official attorney. 

As I had promised before, I would give appropriate credits in my
dictionary page to the person who could produce convincing proof of
his/her involvement in that project.
 

--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Persian-English Dictionary

[Ali A Khanban]

Pedram Safari wrote:
--
Credits: The cgi script for this program is written by Masood Hashemi. The
content is reportedly based on, but not identical to, an edition of
Aryanpours' Persian-English dictionary. The database is said to have been
developed from the data of an open-source DOS program by Bahman Sabouri
(?), which was updated and modified by many before it was decoded by Ali A
Khanban, who also made corrections of his own.
If you find an error in the credits above, or if you are interested in the
source file of this online program, please contact the author.
--
 

Just to point out something:
1. The DOS program by Bahman Sabouri was not open source.
2. "...which was updated and modified by many before it was..." is not 
correct, because there was no modification possibility in the program. 
You could only add words to it. Most of the words added to it were not 
suitable (dirty, to be exact), except a few computer words. So, I would 
say the data was more or less original Aryanpour data.

Best
-ali-
--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Ali A Khanban]

Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the
specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries
to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for
the Persian language of Iran. It's available from:
  http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf
 

Th attachment should be a type, I guess.
Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to
get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and
maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write
to us at the following address:
  Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
  PO Box 13445-389
  Tehran, Iran
Does that mean we should send our comments only to the above email and 
not to this list?

Best
-ali-
--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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choose a relative email subject

[Ali A Khanban]

Dear all,
Please choose a subject related to your email. This will help a lot. 
When you raise a new issue inside a thread, you'd better choose a new 
thread, instead of continuing the old one. Consider this example:
In thread "Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User 
group", which was a  multiple thread already, one raises the issue of 
cursor problem in bidi texts and it goes on under the same thread! This 
new subject is indeed an interesting, but different one. Please let us 
avoid multiple subject threads as much as possible. This helps others 
who search on the web, too.

Best
-ali-
--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Ali A Khanban]

Hi,
The name of the script, as in attachment, seems wrong. According to the 
constitution, the name of the language and script is Farsi (Persian). 
Look at
http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-2.html and
http://www.moi.gov.ir/ghavanin/asasi.htm#three

I know that Persian script comes from Arabic and many may know it as 
Arabic, but are all the scripts with their root in Arabic script called 
Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu?

Best
-ali-
Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the
specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries
to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for
the Persian language of Iran. It's available from:
  http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf
Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to
get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and
maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write
to us at the following address:
  Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
  PO Box 13445-389
  Tehran, Iran
Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free
documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the
license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are
able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain
conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is
copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to
do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the
information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in
proprietary software.
The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of
Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of
Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping
in the funding.
I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar,
Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing
community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the
main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me.
Roozbeh Pournader
Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
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|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Ali A Khanban]

Hi,
Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
Well, it depends on your point of view.  Instead of bringing the
Pashto or Ordu case, lets have a look at the western equivalent.
They all call it Latin Script ("khatte laatin"), right?  It's not
about language or font-style.  And in computer software that's
what really matters.
 

I brought up Pashto and Ordu cases, because they are more relevant to 
our alphabet.

Moreover from another point of view--the Unicode standard--we are
using the Arabic script, there's no such thing as Persian script
encoded in the Unicode standard.
 

Again, I'd like to know if other Arabic-based scripts, such as Pashto 
and Ordu, call themselves "Arabic script" in their locale. If it is 
common among all these scripts to call themselves Arabic (the case for 
Latin-based scripts), then we should do that, too. Otherwise, we should 
call it "Persian Script" and add some information (Arabic-based nature 
of the script and so on) in a note.

Best
-ali-
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
 

Hi,
The name of the script, as in attachment, seems wrong. According to the
constitution, the name of the language and script is Farsi (Persian).
Look at
http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-2.html and
http://www.moi.gov.ir/ghavanin/asasi.htm#three
I know that Persian script comes from Arabic and many may know it as
Arabic, but are all the scripts with their root in Arabic script called
Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu?
Best
-ali-
Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
   

I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the
specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries
to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for
the Persian language of Iran. It's available from:
 http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf
Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to
get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and
maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write
to us at the following address:
 Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
 PO Box 13445-389
 Tehran, Iran
Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free
documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the
license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are
able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain
conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is
copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to
do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the
information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in
proprietary software.
The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of
Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of
Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping
in the funding.
I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar,
Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing
community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the
main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me.
Roozbeh Pournader
Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
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--behdad
 behdad.org
 

--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: khaat e Farsi

[Ali A Khanban]

Well, it shows that there exists something which is called "xatte 
Faarsi". Not everything in our constitution is fiction, is it? ;)

-ali-
Peyman wrote:
The attached .jpg is a text from the book "pishineye zabane farsi" 
written by Dr. Safavi.
 
Peyman

*/Behdad Esfahbod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:
Hi all,
Well, it depends on your point of view. Instead of bringing the
Pashto or Ordu case, lets have a look at the western equivalent.
They all call it Latin Script ("khatte laatin"), right? It's not
about language or font-style. And in computer software that's
what really matters.
Moreover from another point of view--the Unicode standard--we are
using the Arabic script, there's no such thing as Persian script
encoded in the Unicode standard.
behdad
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The name of the script, as in attachment, seems wrong. According
to the
> constitution, the name of the language and script is Farsi
(Persian).
> Look at
>
http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-2.html
and
> http://www.moi.gov.ir/ghavanin/asasi.htm#three
>> I know that Persian script comes from Arabic and many may know
it as
> Arabic, but are all the scripts with their root in Arabic script
called
> Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu?
>
> Best
> -ali-
>
> Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
>
> >I am glad to announce the availability of the first public
draft of the
> >specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The
text tries
> >to specify the general requirements of internationalized
software for
> >the Persian language of Iran. It's available from:
> >
> > http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf
> >
> >Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in
order to
> >get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a
living and
> >maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at
> >, or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You! can also write
> >to us at the following address:
> >
> > Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
> > PO Box 13445-389
> > Tehran, Iran
> >
> >Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free
> >documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the
> >license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities,
we are
> >able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain
> >conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is
> >copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are
allowed to
> >do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the
> >information you learn for any purpose of course, including
using them in
> >proprietary software.
> >
> >The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of
> >Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif
University of
> >Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for
helping
> >in the funding.
> >
> >I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr,
Elnaz Sarbar,
> >Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the
PersianComputing
> >community for their advice and contributions to the work. But
as the
> >main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me.
> >
> >Roozbeh Pournader
> >Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
> >
> >
> >___
> >PersianComputing mailing list
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
> >
> >
>
>
--behdad
behdad.org
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--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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Re: khatt e Farsi -- was khaat e Farsi

[Ali A Khanban]

C Bobroff wrote:
I believe Roozbeh, while typing the document was attempting to translate
"Perso-Arabic script" into Persian. Not an easy job.  I recommend for the
final draft, you say "khatt-e 'arabi" and then in parentheses or footnote,
just put the English (Perso-Arabic script). I don't think that for the
purposes of this draft you need to get into the history of the
calligraphic styles and orthographic conventions.
 

Well, I am afraid that may cause some problems in the future, especially 
some ugly political ones. Let me tell you a story. The first time we 
tried to approach High Council of Informatics "showraaye aaliye 
anformaatik" to discuss a Unicode proposal, they were against using 
Unicode, just because the letters were named "Arabic letter ...". They 
were of course mistaken, and it took a long time and effort to achieve 
their support. I am sure Roozbeh still remembers those times.

Now, first of all, we do not talk about script family. Everyone agrees 
that Persian script belongs to the Arabic scripts family. We just say 
"Persian script", and in a note we explain that this script belongs to 
the Arabic scripts family. Please note that unlike western scripts that 
can be called Latin script, there are many national and political 
barriers and dilemmas, which prevent the nations on this side of the 
world to call their script Arabic script. Choosing a very liberal, and 
somehow radical, approach at the moment doesn't solve all of them!

Secondly, as I mentioned before, we clearly have in the constitution 
that the name of both language and script are Farsi. If we provide a 
document that will become official and in which refer to our script as 
Arabic (no matter how we explain it in a note), that surely will have 
some side-effects.

Best
-ali-
--

||   Ali Asghar Khanban
|| ||Research Associate in Department of Computing
|||  Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K.
||   Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599
|||  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban

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