Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
[Kristian Koehntopp [EMAIL PROTECTED]] And finally, what is services to you? How will they relate to PHP and what do we as developers need to do to enable them? To me, services means online transactions, be it web search, stock alerts or credit card payments, and the full range of variations you can get within each of these. It is also something that the customer does not host himself. - Stig -- Stig Sæther Bakken [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fast Search Transfer ASA, Trondheim, Norway -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
Edin Kadribasic wrote: http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-08-13-009-20-OP This guy claims that PHP has been 'left in the dust' by ASP.NET. Uh... if a viable, tested, deployed product was shipping, that may eventually be substantiated. Quick show of hands: Who has deployed an enterprise .NET architecture? If it's in the the dust, why is it's marketshare peanuts compared to PHP? Edin From the article: (Warning: venting below:) There will be Apache defenders who will bristle at the suggestion that it is a vanilla webserver. Look at PHP, they will say. PHP actually has greater market share than ASP. You can build fantastic web applications with PHP at a fraction of the cost of any commercial alternatives, including Microsoft. Not to mention faster, more extensible, more open, with more choices in backends, and it can be deployed on more stable serving platforms. :-) That's great, but when will PHP grow to become something more than a web scripting language? About two years ago. Where is the PHP enterprise component architecture? Vague marketing speak. Do they want millions of prewritten code blocks to call, so programmers can write code based on somebody else's catch-all, do all, code, slowing the app down to glacial VB/ASP speeds? They already exist for PHP, if you want 'em. You barely have to write an include (use/call/whatever) statement, and there's thousands posted to www.php.net laready. If you don't want the horrible pain of downloading 5 lines of code, PEAR is building out generic catch-all objects and components, so you can use code not optimized for your individual needs. What about clustering and failover? Neither IIS nor apache offer true (coming from a VMS standpoint) clustering. However, I am doing web server clustering already with PHP, ldap, and postgresql. Where are the WSDL and UDDI implementations? Ah, buzzword wars. Why not ask why PHP doesn't support CASE or ROSE? (Because the skill of a technology in performing a task is unrelated to which buzzword of the day is adopted.) Don't show me bits and pieces here and there. Fine. Don't ask for components, then. Show me a framework. Linux (base) Apache (web server) LDAP (auth) Postgres/MySQL (storage). Show me a reference implementation. http://www.php.net Now show me a high-speed ASP.NET site, with 20+ failover sites, 8+ languages, all running off of a common ASP code base... with less than 30 single CPU machines. Show me a friendly interface. UltraEdit. Not there yet? So PHP has been left in the dust as well, while ASP is morphing into ASP.NET, the browser delivery front-end of the Microsoft web services platform. FUD. And bad marketing flames. Maybe they wanted to bump up their hit count? -Bop -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
[Kristian Koehntopp [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 02:24:27AM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: I've rambled a bit, but my feeling is that the Linux Today Article is premature. PHP can (and likely will) support the features mentioned in the article, but the real question is, are these really the features that are going to be used? Very nice non-PC statement! :) A programming language is not only a tool and a framework, it also is a set of people sharing a common vision and working together - a community. What Microsoft provided with .net is not so much a product - yet. It is a vision, though, and a plan where they want to go in the next few years. So to compete here, PHP need not only be superior in technical checklist items, it also has to provide a kind of development roadmap, a plan where it wants to be in 3 and in 5 years, and what services it will provide to developers then. That is the PHP vision that the language and the system needs to stand the marketing onslaught by Microsoft. Note how other communities, notably Perl, provided such a vision in the past (e.g. the mythical Perl compiler), and continue to provide such visions now (e.g. Perl 6 and flexible scanners to turn Perl into the one language to parse all syntaxes). Larry provides even more - with his speeches and interviews he even provides a kind of philosophy behind Perl, a greater concept to explain not only how, but also why things have been done the way they have been done. As you can see in the case of Perl, the vision need not be final, useful or even true, it just needs to be cool, and believable. It is being used as a tool to bind the community tigther together, to provide hope and a sense of direction. To come back to PHP: What is the place of PHP in 3 and in 5 years, what are the next big projects tackled in the development of PHP, and what is the larger idea behind PHP - what does the language _want_ to become, and what audience will it cater. If you can answer these questions for your developing audience, these answers will have a large influence on the qualification and quantity of audience you have. Very nicely put, Kristian. A lot of people in the PHP community have visions, but we have not yet managed to put something together that people can look forward to. IMHO people like Zeev, Andi and Rasmus are the natural channels for such visions, but we're not quite there yet. But for a vision to form we need to find a common ground for a few things. The LinuxToday article kept rambling about PHP not being a platform, which is true, it is but one of the components in such a platform. But it doesn't mean we can go on not having this platform in mind. Thinking services _is_ important today, it's what most big online companies have to do, Microsoft knows this, and they help creating the wave they've started riding now. There's quite a few service platforms for PHP out there today, but their needs from the language should be made more visible, so we can foster the development (and maybe even consolidation) of systems such as PEAR, binarycloud and so on. I'm not rambling on the engine2 mailing list about namespaces, advices and whatnot because my mind is going, it's because I see these features as powerful enablers for PHP going in this direction. - Stoig -- Stig Sæther Bakken [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fast Search Transfer ASA, Trondheim, Norway -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
[ Brainstorm warning - these are relatively unsorted thoughts, and they have to be taken with heavy editing. -- KK ] [ Additional idea: Let us make this an online brainstorm. Please reply to this message only, do not reply to any replies at all for the next few days - no comments on other peoples ideas allowed at first, just idea collection. See my questions down below in the text, and answer them, then send your reply. Do not to try to be too friendly, too coherent and do not avoid provocation. We will have an integration session later, and see what comes out of this. -- KK ] On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 10:29:06AM +0200, Stig S?ther Bakken wrote: IMHO people like Zeev, Andi and Rasmus are the natural channels for such visions, but we're not quite there yet. They are. I was on the Future of Zend session with Zeev on Linuxtag and met Rasmus later, too. I proposed several ideas, but they are only fragments, not a complete concept - some of these ideas may be interesting, though. These need to be reviewed, integrated and then sold to the community. Then there is the other problem, that is, parts of the PHP community are still feeling uncomfortable with Zend, the license and/or other things surrounding these issues. This, too, is not helping in the process of creating a grand unified PHP theory. And finally - and this is just my personal view on things, the view of someone who is currently in the process of slowly gaining distance to PHP and beginning very different work - I think that some people I know personally have bet to much of their own lives on PHP and are beginning to have difficulties to see the fun side of all things PHP and tend to take such issues to seriously. I mean, PHP still is an Open Source project despite all the commercial undercurrents (companies selling addons, education or conferences) popping up all over the place - and I am very happy with that, because I strongly believe that this is the better way to develop software. Doing Open Source should be fun, in fact it must be fun in order to work. So tell us: Why do you develop PHP, the language, and where do you want to go with it? But for a vision to form we need to find a common ground for a few things. The LinuxToday article kept rambling about PHP not being a platform, which is true, it is but one of the components in such a platform. Yes. So what is the platform thing to you developers, which buzzwords, ideas, concepts and services relate to the platform, and how do they again relate to PHP. In technical marketese, how do you see the current market that PHP caters, and what market should PHP be catering in 3 and 5 years? Please let us make this a brainstorm session - send your ideas, perhaps roughly classify them as buzzwork, idea, concept, service, as plus or minus, as urgent or nice to have or send them in a free form format, as you see fit. Do not reply to other peoples ideas, and do not comment on them. Just think, take inspiration, and send your ideas. We will discuss them and integrate them later. Also, what is your vision - the 3 and the 5 year vision? Who will be using PHP, why will they be doing it, what will they be doing with it, and how will it be different from the situation today? And finally, what is services to you? How will they relate to PHP and what do we as developers need to do to enable them? Let's collect stuff, and see what we can make out of it. Kristian -- Kristian Köhntopp, NetUSE AG Dr.-Hell-Straße, D-24107 Kiel Tel: +49 431 386 435 00, Fax: +49 431 386 435 99 -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
I don't usually buy into long term visions, because they virtually never work. Microsoft changed its vision twice in the last 5 years, *completely*, from end to end. Sun (and the other Java followers) have also changed their Java vision several times during its short lifespan, also, from end to end. In reality, where a language goes is strongly decided by the userbase, and not by the vendors. In the .NET case it might work, because Microsoft is one of the only companies that actually stand a chance at imposing their will on the market, if what they offer is reasonably good (which .NET is, apparently). Giving it a try doesn't hurt, though. I just explained why I liked Blake's non politically correct statement :) Zeev At 10:58 16-08-01, Kristian Koehntopp wrote: On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 02:24:27AM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: I've rambled a bit, but my feeling is that the Linux Today Article is premature. PHP can (and likely will) support the features mentioned in the article, but the real question is, are these really the features that are going to be used? Very nice non-PC statement! :) A programming language is not only a tool and a framework, it also is a set of people sharing a common vision and working together - a community. What Microsoft provided with .net is not so much a product - yet. It is a vision, though, and a plan where they want to go in the next few years. So to compete here, PHP need not only be superior in technical checklist items, it also has to provide a kind of development roadmap, a plan where it wants to be in 3 and in 5 years, and what services it will provide to developers then. That is the PHP vision that the language and the system needs to stand the marketing onslaught by Microsoft. Note how other communities, notably Perl, provided such a vision in the past (e.g. the mythical Perl compiler), and continue to provide such visions now (e.g. Perl 6 and flexible scanners to turn Perl into the one language to parse all syntaxes). Larry provides even more - with his speeches and interviews he even provides a kind of philosophy behind Perl, a greater concept to explain not only how, but also why things have been done the way they have been done. As you can see in the case of Perl, the vision need not be final, useful or even true, it just needs to be cool, and believable. It is being used as a tool to bind the community tigther together, to provide hope and a sense of direction. To come back to PHP: What is the place of PHP in 3 and in 5 years, what are the next big projects tackled in the development of PHP, and what is the larger idea behind PHP - what does the language _want_ to become, and what audience will it cater. If you can answer these questions for your developing audience, these answers will have a large influence on the qualification and quantity of audience you have. PHP 2005 - If you code it, they will come. Kristian -- Kristian Köhntopp, NetUSE AG Dr.-Hell-Straße, D-24107 Kiel Tel: +49 431 386 435 00, Fax: +49 431 386 435 99 -- Zeev Suraski [EMAIL PROTECTED] CTO co-founder, Zend Technologies Ltd. http://www.zend.com/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
(And other .NET is the death knell for Open Source articles...) I guess I am just missing something, but how can ANYTHING kill Open Source in general, or PHP in specific? There is no way that .NET is going to be a silver bullet solution that solves every possible problem in the most efficent, intelligent, reusable, buzzword buzzword buzzword. Even if it were, SO WHAT? Linux more or less popularized the Open Source movement, but the movement itself is OLD. It's an idea, not a list of products or companies. If RedHat, Zend, VA, Andover, and all the others were to disappear tomorrow, who here would toss their hands up in the air, and roll over whimpering? Not I. And I doubt any of you would, either. Otherwise, you wouldn't be here to begin with...you'd be off writing VB Applications, selling your soul to corporate America. Open Source isn't going anywhere. I don't care if it ever takes over the world, becuase I know that, in the WORST CASE, I will be the LAST Open Source developer in the face of the whole earth. In such a case, I *STILL* have the source code to ALL of my tools (via Debian Source CD's, etc.) All of you could disappear forever tomorrow, and it might slow things down quite a bit, but it's NOT GOING TO DIE. The cat is already out of the bag. People already see that in some cases, opening the code *IS* the right thing to do. Personally, I would argue that it is the right thing in *ALL* cases, but that's an issue for another time...like the Founding Fathers of the United States, I don't agree with the concept of Intellectual Property, and that's all I will say on it for now. :) Am I missing something? Why should we care what .NET can do, other than to use it the way ALL other languages should be used: learn from their mistakes, steal all their really useful ideas, and always always always try to do it better than the other guy? -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 01:20:23PM +0300, Zeev Suraski wrote: I don't usually buy into long term visions, because they virtually never work. Microsoft changed its vision twice in the last 5 years, *completely*, from end to end. Sun (and the other Java followers) have also changed their Java vision several times during its short lifespan, also, from end to end. Agreed - and so did Perl, which I quoted as a compareable example, at least to a degree. But then, that was not entirely my point - of course the vision changes. I wrote As you can see in the case of Perl, the vision need not be final, useful or even true, it just needs to be cool, and believable. It is being used as a tool to bind the community tigther together, to provide hope and a sense of direction. and for this such a vision _is_ useful. It provides a frame that puts all the small actions and progress in a larger frame, and it provides a reference point so that you can verify the stated goals of your project against the daily reality. If they no longer match satisfactorily, you change course (and vision). The key points are _cool_ and _believeable_ _vision_. Cool in order to attract the proper audience. Believeable in order to motivate them, and the vision in order to provide the necessary sense of direction. The vision may sometimes be farther out than the actual goal - sometimes you need a longer baseline to align your ruler more accurately. The vision is a marketing tool. It is the ackowledgement that the current product has shortcomings, but expressed in the most positive form: We are working to remedy these, and we hope that we will be doing this until x and we plan to do it in the following way y. We invite you to participiate - if you are up to the task. We promise you hard work, but also a generally good time and an interesting experience. And besides, 'It's kind of fun to do the impossible.' (Walt Disney). This is - of course - bullshiting. People like to be bullshitted, it has to be done nicely, though. So the question still stands: Where do you see yourself in 3 to 5 years, where do you see PHP? What do you see in the terms platform and services? Kristian -- Kristian Köhntopp, NetUSE AG, Dr.-Hell-Straße, D-24107 Kiel Tel: +49 431 386 435 00, Fax: +49 431 386 435 99 -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
Hi everyone, I found the talk about Apache vs IIS boring. I run both and only look at httpd.conf maybe once a month, and ditto with IIS Service Manager. It's just infrastructure that helps me do interesting things. And .NET and PHP both allow me to do interesting things. In some ways .NET is playing catch up technically with PHP. It fixes some ASP limitations such as 1. File upload support that doesn't require a 3rd party OCX. 2. Creating GIF/PNG/JPEG images dynamically. 3. Performing HTTP/HTTPS/FTP requests without a 3rd party OCX. ASP never had a very deep library of standard web code (that's why an industry in 3rd party OCX's developed) and .NET has finally caught up. Where .NET appears ahead of the game is 1. database technology (they have had leadership in this area since creating ODBC, OLEDB, and now ADO+ Disconnected Recordsets) and everyone has been following them... 2. web components that are higher level than input tags such as grids and radio button groups, creating the building blocks for a future Visual Basic than can generate web code instead of windows code with a flick of a switch (bet you that this will only work with IE). 3. language independence, but no PHP support yet -- pity. 4. support for .NET at the OS level unless the courts decide to restrict M'soft 5. they have more money to spend... Should anyone be frightened by the future? Not really unless you believe that Microsoft and the rest of the software world cannot co-exist. There will always be people who will support and fund alternative solutions to .NET. And you can always talk to .NET with SOAP anyway. Lastly you can't hold back the great programmers behind PHP...The tools are in our hands to build even more wonderful toys... -- John Gavin Sherry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Brian Moon wrote: Could someone please tell me what other then marketing speak that .NET has on PHP? I guess I just don't see it. I mean, yeah, if you want to develop junk at a fast pace you can use MS products. I was a VB programmer for years. I know the reliability and performance cost of doing things the MS way. I just don't get it. It is all 1's and 0's. What does .NET have on PHP? I was going to write a long diatribe about the kinds of programmers there are in the world and why some need to drive fast, expensive and impressive sounding cars when the others just find the most appropriate means of transport... but it doesn't really matter. NET is just another commercial phenomena aiming to achieve what all commercial phenomena do: capture the market, make lots of money, control the future direction of the market etc. But for the most part, this is irrelevant to PHP. It is only important when people begin to ask, am I betting my future as a programmer on the wrong thing? Whether you're a PHP user, a .NET guru or both the answer is probably. But PHP is already remarkably successful, PHP cannot go away. .NET at present is just a vortical riot of opinion, choreographed by idiots. I program both in ASP/PHP. Does that make me an idiot or polymath genius, or someone with poor taste? :-) So what does .NET have on PHP? Marketing hype, nothing else. Open Source systems have always shown that they can quickly evolve and match new technologies introduced into the industry. If .NET offers anything properly useful to developers, we will no doubt see it refined, conceptually, and implemented in open programmatic systems. Good point, Gavin. Gavin -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
Hi Ron, You're asking the wrong audience. Ask for a show of hands on a .NET mailing list. Regards, John Ron Chmara [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Edin Kadribasic wrote: http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-08-13-009-20-OP This guy claims that PHP has been 'left in the dust' by ASP.NET. Uh... if a viable, tested, deployed product was shipping, that may eventually be substantiated. Quick show of hands: Who has deployed an enterprise .NET architecture? If it's in the the dust, why is it's marketshare peanuts compared to PHP? Edin From the article: (Warning: venting below:) There will be Apache defenders who will bristle at the suggestion that it is a vanilla webserver. Look at PHP, they will say. PHP actually has greater market share than ASP. You can build fantastic web applications with PHP at a fraction of the cost of any commercial alternatives, including Microsoft. Not to mention faster, more extensible, more open, with more choices in backends, and it can be deployed on more stable serving platforms. :-) That's great, but when will PHP grow to become something more than a web scripting language? About two years ago. Where is the PHP enterprise component architecture? Vague marketing speak. Do they want millions of prewritten code blocks to call, so programmers can write code based on somebody else's catch-all, do all, code, slowing the app down to glacial VB/ASP speeds? They already exist for PHP, if you want 'em. You barely have to write an include (use/call/whatever) statement, and there's thousands posted to www.php.net laready. If you don't want the horrible pain of downloading 5 lines of code, PEAR is building out generic catch-all objects and components, so you can use code not optimized for your individual needs. What about clustering and failover? Neither IIS nor apache offer true (coming from a VMS standpoint) clustering. However, I am doing web server clustering already with PHP, ldap, and postgresql. Where are the WSDL and UDDI implementations? Ah, buzzword wars. Why not ask why PHP doesn't support CASE or ROSE? (Because the skill of a technology in performing a task is unrelated to which buzzword of the day is adopted.) Don't show me bits and pieces here and there. Fine. Don't ask for components, then. Show me a framework. Linux (base) Apache (web server) LDAP (auth) Postgres/MySQL (storage). Show me a reference implementation. http://www.php.net Now show me a high-speed ASP.NET site, with 20+ failover sites, 8+ languages, all running off of a common ASP code base... with less than 30 single CPU machines. Show me a friendly interface. UltraEdit. Not there yet? So PHP has been left in the dust as well, while ASP is morphing into ASP.NET, the browser delivery front-end of the Microsoft web services platform. FUD. And bad marketing flames. Maybe they wanted to bump up their hit count? -Bop -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-08-13-009-20-OP This guy claims that PHP has been 'left in the dust' by ASP.NET. Any truth in that observation? Has anyone tried it (ASP.NET and the whole .NET thingy). Edin From the article: There will be Apache defenders who will bristle at the suggestion that it is a vanilla webserver. Look at PHP, they will say. PHP actually has greater market share than ASP. You can build fantastic web applications with PHP at a fraction of the cost of any commercial alternatives, including Microsoft. That's great, but when will PHP grow to become something more than a web scripting language? Where is the PHP enterprise component architecture? What about clustering and failover? Where are the WSDL and UDDI implementations? Don't show me bits and pieces here and there. Show me a framework. Show me a reference implementation. Show me a friendly interface. Not there yet? So PHP has been left in the dust as well, while ASP is morphing into ASP.NET, the browser delivery front-end of the Microsoft web services platform. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
Edin Kadribasic wrote: Where is the PHP enterprise component architecture? What exactly would that be? What about clustering and failover? This has nothing to do with the language, IMHO, but with the platform, ie. the web server. I guess there are solutions to provide clustering and fail-over to Apache and MySQL, for instance. Where are the WSDL and UDDI implementations? What are WSDL and UDDI? Are there libraries out there can be wrapped into an extension? Show me a framework. Horde is a framework, and I guess there are some more out there. But I fear that there is truth in this. We should analyze what, besides the upcoming changes on the language level (with the Zend Engine 2.0), we need to make PHP compatible with ASP.NET. Maybe Zend has some feedback from their enterprise clients on what features are requested, etc. -- Sebastian Bergmann Measure Traffic Usability http://sebastian-bergmann.de/http://phpOpenTracker.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
Where are the WSDL and UDDI implementations? What are WSDL and UDDI? Are there libraries out there can be wrapped into an extension? I didn't know myself until now but UDDI stands for Universal Description Discovery and Integration. It has to do with 'managing the discovery of web services'. Some sort of automated data interchange it seems. http://uddi.microsoft.com/developer/techOverview.aspx But I fear that there is truth in this. We should analyze what, besides the upcoming changes on the language level (with the Zend Engine 2.0), we need to make PHP compatible with ASP.NET. I've just got the MSDN cd pack, including the beta 2 of Visual Studio.NET. That beast comes on 4 CDs and I was afraid that my machine wouldn't be good enough for it. But I'm going to install it just to see what all this .NET thing is about. Maybe Zend has some feedback from their enterprise clients on what features are requested, etc. It would be great to hear if anyone else has had a chance to play with the new Microsoft toys. Edin -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
Edin Kadribasic wrote: It would be great to hear if anyone else has had a chance to play with the new Microsoft toys. WSDL and UDDI are not Microsoft toys, however Microsoft was involved in the development and with the specification, I assume. WSDL is just an XML format. WSDL support in PHP could be implemented as a PEAR class that draws upon ext/xml and/or ext/xslt. Any volunteers? :-) -- Sebastian Bergmann Measure Traffic Usability http://sebastian-bergmann.de/http://phpOpenTracker.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[PHP-DEV] Re: [PEAR-DEV] Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Sebastian Bergmann wrote: WSDL and UDDI are not Microsoft toys, however Microsoft was involved in the development and with the specification, I assume. WSDL is just an XML format. WSDL support in PHP could be implemented as a PEAR class that draws upon ext/xml and/or ext/xslt. Any volunteers? :-) Are WSDL and UDDI even _used_ anywhere with any degree of popularity and/or reliability? To me it seems like another cool-idea-of-the-moment. -Andrei * Gun manufacturers don't make bad products, bad parents do. * -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
WSDL and UDDI are not Microsoft toys, however Microsoft was involved in the development and with the specification, I assume. I meant .NET. It is the biggest competitor to Apache/PHP after all. Edin -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Edin Kadribasic wrote: Maybe Zend has some feedback from their enterprise clients on what features are requested, etc. It would be great to hear if anyone else has had a chance to play with the new Microsoft toys. As a PHP contributor and long-time user, I can say that if our company was starting over right now, .NET would win hands down in terms of suiting our needs (engineering-side), as a web application development company. This wasn't the case with a Java application framework, many of which were available when our company was choosing its platform. PHP has some advantages over a language like C#. However, my impressions from following this list for the last year have been that it is not being evolved towards medium-to-large application builders, but still towards people writing web sites or simple scripts. We're trying to change this with binarycloud, but still, we're spending countless hours reinventing what ASP.NET would give you for free (or rather in exchange for selling your soul to microsoft). I don't mean to be unfair. Breaking backwards compatibility would be required in many many cases in order for PHP to evolve in that sense, and as long as most people don't want it to happen, it probably shouldn't happen. That's a significant cost to incur and something new frameworks/languages don't have to worry about. John -- John Donagher Application Engineer, Intacct Corp. Public key available off http://www.keyserver.net Key fingerprint = 4024 DF50 56EE 19A3 258A D628 22DE AD56 EEBE 8DDD -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
Just my opinion, but right now (meaning this year, maybe a little longer) I feel that PHP is more than adequate for developing small, medium and large sites. I work on both sides of the fence. My day job has been developing portions of large web sites using ASP/COM/COM+ and the evolution of these tools which is the frame of the .NET product/service. For my personal and more interesting work, I prefer PHP by far. I feel that there is a mass of hype surrounding new development paradigms, but we are far from declaring one technology a winner. ASP is provided by a company with a great deal of resources and an interest in providing tools to its customers. I don't have a problem with that, but right now I don't think many of the customers really know what they want. With no offense intended toward many working hard on and with XML, I say XML hasn't proved its worth in very many places. I personally don't know anyone who is using XML for anything and very few who have plans to use it. So why should I get worried about whether a language currently supports one of its extensions. Am I using it? Are my customers using it? Really? The ASP model has some wonderful features. Components can be great, but too much componentization can be a nightmare. In my personal experience an enterprise component architecture is a double-edged sword. It's great to be able to plug in well-built components and use them, but the downside is that component writers disappear, companies go out of business, support can be difficult to obtain and so on. I've rambled a bit, but my feeling is that the Linux Today Article is premature. PHP can (and likely will) support the features mentioned in the article, but the real question is, are these really the features that are going to be used? Will I be developing web applications with these features in 1 year, 3 years or 5 five years? Is PHP or ASP (.NET) providing me with the real tools I need to develop web applications today? For me, both tools provide what I need today, but I like PHP better. Blake -Original Message- From: Sebastian Bergmann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 2:30 PM To: php-dev mailinglist Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article Edin Kadribasic wrote: Where is the PHP enterprise component architecture? What exactly would that be? What about clustering and failover? This has nothing to do with the language, IMHO, but with the platform, ie. the web server. I guess there are solutions to provide clustering and fail-over to Apache and MySQL, for instance. Where are the WSDL and UDDI implementations? What are WSDL and UDDI? Are there libraries out there can be wrapped into an extension? Show me a framework. Horde is a framework, and I guess there are some more out there. But I fear that there is truth in this. We should analyze what, besides the upcoming changes on the language level (with the Zend Engine 2.0), we need to make PHP compatible with ASP.NET. Maybe Zend has some feedback from their enterprise clients on what features are requested, etc. -- Sebastian Bergmann Measure Traffic Usability http://sebastian-bergmann.de/http://phpOpenTracker.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
Very nice non-PC statement! :) Zeev At 02:20 16-08-01, Blake Schwendiman wrote: Just my opinion, but right now (meaning this year, maybe a little longer) I feel that PHP is more than adequate for developing small, medium and large sites. I work on both sides of the fence. My day job has been developing portions of large web sites using ASP/COM/COM+ and the evolution of these tools which is the frame of the .NET product/service. For my personal and more interesting work, I prefer PHP by far. I feel that there is a mass of hype surrounding new development paradigms, but we are far from declaring one technology a winner. ASP is provided by a company with a great deal of resources and an interest in providing tools to its customers. I don't have a problem with that, but right now I don't think many of the customers really know what they want. With no offense intended toward many working hard on and with XML, I say XML hasn't proved its worth in very many places. I personally don't know anyone who is using XML for anything and very few who have plans to use it. So why should I get worried about whether a language currently supports one of its extensions. Am I using it? Are my customers using it? Really? The ASP model has some wonderful features. Components can be great, but too much componentization can be a nightmare. In my personal experience an enterprise component architecture is a double-edged sword. It's great to be able to plug in well-built components and use them, but the downside is that component writers disappear, companies go out of business, support can be difficult to obtain and so on. I've rambled a bit, but my feeling is that the Linux Today Article is premature. PHP can (and likely will) support the features mentioned in the article, but the real question is, are these really the features that are going to be used? Will I be developing web applications with these features in 1 year, 3 years or 5 five years? Is PHP or ASP (.NET) providing me with the real tools I need to develop web applications today? For me, both tools provide what I need today, but I like PHP better. Blake -Original Message- From: Sebastian Bergmann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 2:30 PM To: php-dev mailinglist Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article Edin Kadribasic wrote: Where is the PHP enterprise component architecture? What exactly would that be? What about clustering and failover? This has nothing to do with the language, IMHO, but with the platform, ie. the web server. I guess there are solutions to provide clustering and fail-over to Apache and MySQL, for instance. Where are the WSDL and UDDI implementations? What are WSDL and UDDI? Are there libraries out there can be wrapped into an extension? Show me a framework. Horde is a framework, and I guess there are some more out there. But I fear that there is truth in this. We should analyze what, besides the upcoming changes on the language level (with the Zend Engine 2.0), we need to make PHP compatible with ASP.NET. Maybe Zend has some feedback from their enterprise clients on what features are requested, etc. -- Sebastian Bergmann Measure Traffic Usability http://sebastian-bergmann.de/http://phpOpenTracker.de/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Zeev Suraski [EMAIL PROTECTED] CTO co-founder, Zend Technologies Ltd. http://www.zend.com/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
Could someone please tell me what other then marketing speak that .NET has on PHP? I guess I just don't see it. I mean, yeah, if you want to develop junk at a fast pace you can use MS products. I was a VB programmer for years. I know the reliability and performance cost of doing things the MS way. I just don't get it. It is all 1's and 0's. Brian Moon -- dealnews.com, Inc. Makers of dealnews, dealmac http://dealnews.com/ | http://dealmac.com/ - Original Message - From: John Donagher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Edin Kadribasic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Edin Kadribasic wrote: Maybe Zend has some feedback from their enterprise clients on what features are requested, etc. It would be great to hear if anyone else has had a chance to play with the new Microsoft toys. As a PHP contributor and long-time user, I can say that if our company was starting over right now, .NET would win hands down in terms of suiting our needs (engineering-side), as a web application development company. This wasn't the case with a Java application framework, many of which were available when our company was choosing its platform. PHP has some advantages over a language like C#. However, my impressions from following this list for the last year have been that it is not being evolved towards medium-to-large application builders, but still towards people writing web sites or simple scripts. We're trying to change this with binarycloud, but still, we're spending countless hours reinventing what ASP.NET would give you for free (or rather in exchange for selling your soul to microsoft). I don't mean to be unfair. Breaking backwards compatibility would be required in many many cases in order for PHP to evolve in that sense, and as long as most people don't want it to happen, it probably shouldn't happen. That's a significant cost to incur and something new frameworks/languages don't have to worry about. John -- John Donagher Application Engineer, Intacct Corp. Public key available off http://www.keyserver.net Key fingerprint = 4024 DF50 56EE 19A3 258A D628 22DE AD56 EEBE 8DDD -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP-DEV] Linux Today Article
On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Brian Moon wrote: Could someone please tell me what other then marketing speak that .NET has on PHP? I guess I just don't see it. I mean, yeah, if you want to develop junk at a fast pace you can use MS products. I was a VB programmer for years. I know the reliability and performance cost of doing things the MS way. I just don't get it. It is all 1's and 0's. .NET doesn't have anything on PHP, anymore than .NET has anything on Python or Java or C. I'm not talking about developing in VB, or directly on an MS platform, either. I definetly don't want to start a war (there have been enough of those on this list the last few days :)), so I'll just suggest that you read [http://www.ximian.com/tech/mono-index.php3] and spend some time on msdn reading about it, instead of writing it off as marketing speak, and we can continue this off-list. -- John Donagher Application Engineer, Intacct Corp. Public key available off http://www.keyserver.net Key fingerprint = 4024 DF50 56EE 19A3 258A D628 22DE AD56 EEBE 8DDD -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
