[PHP] PHP vs JAVA
Hi guys: A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP. Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?) Here are my two references: http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y But I do not know how accurate they are. What say you? Cheers, tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
Tedd Sperling t...@sperling.com wrote: Hi guys: A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP. Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?) Here are my two references: http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y But I do not know how accurate they are. What say you? Cheers, tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Is he possibly getting confused with Javascript? Thanks, Ash -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On 13-08-20 10:00 AM, Tedd Sperling wrote: Hi guys: A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP. Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?) Here are my two references: http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y But I do not know how accurate they are. I think you can use w3techs.com as a very reliable source. But your teacher may have been talking about javascript which is not the same thing as java despite the similarity in their names. Javascript is part of the web page, and executes in the users browser. It is very common and may rival PHP in frequency of use. -- Stephen -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:04 AM, Ashley Sheridan a...@ashleysheridan.co.uk wrote: Is he possibly getting confused with Javascript? Thanks, Ash No, this guy is smarter than that -- he's pretty sharp -- so I listen to what he has to say. Here's an interesting link: http://www.sitepoint.com/best-programming-language-of-2013/ But the link does not divide languages between Web and Other -- other than Android Java, which I do not believe is also included in the above Java number. I think there is more going on here than what I know. For example, my college has numerous (over 3) JAVA classes filled to the max, whereas my PHP class was canceled due to lack of students. Granted the college could have advertised my PHP class more, but still there is an overwhelming demand for Java Programmers. My questions is Why? Cheers, tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On 13-08-20 10:19 AM, Tedd Sperling wrote: On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:04 AM, Ashley Sheridan a...@ashleysheridan.co.uk wrote: Is he possibly getting confused with Javascript? Thanks, Ash No, this guy is smarter than that -- he's pretty sharp -- so I listen to what he has to say. Here's an interesting link: http://www.sitepoint.com/best-programming-language-of-2013/ But the link does not divide languages between Web and Other -- other than Android Java, which I do not believe is also included in the above Java number. I think there is more going on here than what I know. For example, my college has numerous (over 3) JAVA classes filled to the max, whereas my PHP class was canceled due to lack of students. Granted the college could have advertised my PHP class more, but still there is an overwhelming demand for Java Programmers. My questions is Why? I think that the overwhelming majority of Android apps are written in JAVA. That explains its popularity. -- Stephen -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
2013/8/20 Tedd Sperling t...@sperling.com On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:04 AM, Ashley Sheridan a...@ashleysheridan.co.uk wrote: Is he possibly getting confused with Javascript? Thanks, Ash No, this guy is smarter than that -- he's pretty sharp -- so I listen to what he has to say. Here's an interesting link: http://www.sitepoint.com/best-programming-language-of-2013/ But the link does not divide languages between Web and Other -- other than Android Java, which I do not believe is also included in the above Java number. I think there is more going on here than what I know. For example, my college has numerous (over 3) JAVA classes filled to the max, whereas my PHP class was canceled due to lack of students. Granted the college could have advertised my PHP class more, but still there is an overwhelming demand for Java Programmers. My questions is Why? Just tell your teacher: Java isn't more popular than PHP as _web_-language ;) I think too, that he actually meant javascript, which is indeed a very popular client-side language. But javascript and PHP has different use-cases, thus saying one is more popular doesn't tell you anything about whether they are in competition against each other, or not (hint: they arent : :D). Cheers, tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- github.com/KingCrunch
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
The article very clearly says.. No language can be considered as good just because there are more jobs for the same. Yes, but I am not making a value (good/bad) judgment -- Instead I am asking for references supporting which language (Java or PHP) as being the most popular for Web Development? Do you have any? Cheers, tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
I think the big takeaway there is that JAVA is one of the primary language for larger companies and applications. Start ups tend to use smaller easier to use tools like php / javascript / python / ruby. I saw one figure recently that put php at 75% of websites out there (i think that came out when google decided to support php for the app engine) On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Tedd Sperling t...@sperling.com wrote: On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:04 AM, Ashley Sheridan a...@ashleysheridan.co.uk wrote: Is he possibly getting confused with Javascript? Thanks, Ash No, this guy is smarter than that -- he's pretty sharp -- so I listen to what he has to say. Here's an interesting link: http://www.sitepoint.com/best-programming-language-of-2013/ But the link does not divide languages between Web and Other -- other than Android Java, which I do not believe is also included in the above Java number. I think there is more going on here than what I know. For example, my college has numerous (over 3) JAVA classes filled to the max, whereas my PHP class was canceled due to lack of students. Granted the college could have advertised my PHP class more, but still there is an overwhelming demand for Java Programmers. My questions is Why? Cheers, tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Bastien Cat, the other other white meat
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:29 AM, Sebastian Krebs krebs@gmail.com wrote: Just tell your teacher: Java isn't more popular than PHP as _web_-language ;) I think too, that he actually meant javascript, which is indeed a very popular client-side language. But javascript and PHP has different use-cases, thus saying one is more popular doesn't tell you anything about whether they are in competition against each other, or not (hint: they arent : :D). Two things: 1. He's not my teacher -- he is a fellow teacher AND a smart one! He knows the difference between Java and JavaScript. 2. In life, you will find that popularity (often over which is best) is the main reason why things prosper. Cheers, tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:36 AM, Liam l...@3sharpltd.com wrote: You do realise you are on a PHP based user subscription, so the vast majority will go with PHP, so you will get a one sided argument. Regards, Liam I realize that many, maybe the majority, will be bias. HOWEVER -- there are professionals on this list that do know and it is to them I am asking. Remember, I am also asking for supporting documentation of their view. The people who respond with just their opinion are doing just that -- there is no support. My nature is to seek the truth regardless of my bias. Cheers, tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
Here are two references from the Wikipedia article on Java in case you haven't looked at them already. http://www.langpop.com/ http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html On 20 August 2013 10:43, Tedd Sperling t...@sperling.com wrote: On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:36 AM, Liam l...@3sharpltd.com wrote: You do realise you are on a PHP based user subscription, so the vast majority will go with PHP, so you will get a one sided argument. Regards, Liam I realize that many, maybe the majority, will be bias. HOWEVER -- there are professionals on this list that do know and it is to them I am asking. Remember, I am also asking for supporting documentation of their view. The people who respond with just their opinion are doing just that -- there is no support. My nature is to seek the truth regardless of my bias. Cheers, tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:43 AM, Tedd Sperling t...@sperling.com wrote: On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:36 AM, Liam l...@3sharpltd.com wrote: You do realise you are on a PHP based user subscription, so the vast majority will go with PHP, so you will get a one sided argument. Regards, Liam I realize that many, maybe the majority, will be bias. HOWEVER -- there are professionals on this list that do know and it is to them I am asking. Remember, I am also asking for supporting documentation of their view. The people who respond with just their opinion are doing just that -- there is no support. My nature is to seek the truth regardless of my bias. Cheers, tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:56 AM, David OBrien dgobr...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:43 AM, Tedd Sperling t...@sperling.com wrote: On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:36 AM, Liam l...@3sharpltd.com wrote: You do realise you are on a PHP based user subscription, so the vast majority will go with PHP, so you will get a one sided argument. Regards, Liam I realize that many, maybe the majority, will be bias. HOWEVER -- there are professionals on this list that do know and it is to them I am asking. Remember, I am also asking for supporting documentation of their view. The people who respond with just their opinion are doing just that -- there is no support. My nature is to seek the truth regardless of my bias. Cheers, tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php If your looking for popularity... http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
2013/8/20 Tedd Sperling t...@sperling.com On Aug 20, 2013, at 10:29 AM, Sebastian Krebs krebs@gmail.com wrote: Just tell your teacher: Java isn't more popular than PHP as _web_-language ;) I think too, that he actually meant javascript, which is indeed a very popular client-side language. But javascript and PHP has different use-cases, thus saying one is more popular doesn't tell you anything about whether they are in competition against each other, or not (hint: they arent : :D). Two things: 1. He's not my teacher -- he is a fellow teacher AND a smart one! He knows the difference between Java and JavaScript. OKOK, sorry -_- But @topic: For example see http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all Really: Java is a good and mature language, but it is not a web-language. 2. In life, you will find that popularity (often over which is best) is the main reason why things prosper. I am not saying, that Java is bad, or it is not popular. It is just not that popular in the web-ecosystem :) There was one statement I remember (I don't know, where I got it from): A static language doesn't fit very well into the dynamic web. :) Cheers, tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com -- github.com/KingCrunch
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
Sebastian Krebs wrote: 1. He's not my teacher -- he is a fellow teacher AND a smart one! He knows the difference between Java and JavaScript. OKOK, sorry -_- But @topic: For example see http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all Really: Java is a good and mature language, but it is not a web-language. 2. In life, you will find that popularity (often over which is best) is the main reason why things prosper. I think he is simply wrong in his interpretation of the facts. The number of websites powered by PHP vastly exceeds Java and every other language http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all Says it all! But you would never use PHP for a distributed application, and then http://www.langpop.com/ comes into play when the fight is between Java and C/C++ and personally I'm happier with C/C++ than Java even on Android. But even though you would not use PHP for distributed applications, it still gets a good 4th in that chart as well. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Tedd Sperling t...@sperling.com wrote: Hi guys: A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP. Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?) Here are my two references: http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y But I do not know how accurate they are. What say you? While I couldn't find anything comparable - from the same source and window of time - for Java trends on the web, there was an article released by Netcraft in January of this year that shows PHPs continued growth[1]. It may, at the least, provide a basis for comparison should you or your adversary be so inclined to dig deeper. ^1: http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2013/01/31/php-just-grows-grows.html -- /Daniel P. Brown Network Infrastructure Manager http://www.php.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
What a co-incidence! I was searching PHP vs Python in google and reading articles. Now a similar mail on my inbox. When any language war goes on, everyone gets biased by the language he/she loves. It applies here too. I think your college teacher loves Java. During PHPvsPython search I found this info graphic https://www.udemy.com/blog/modern-language-wars/#. Some of the statistics contain Java too. Also you can search PHP and Web Development in big job sites and compare with same search but with Java. On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 8:00 PM, Tedd Sperling t...@sperling.com wrote: Hi guys: A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP. Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?) Here are my two references: http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y But I do not know how accurate they are. What say you? Cheers, tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Shiplu.Mokadd.im ImgSign.com | A dynamic signature machine Innovation distinguishes between follower and leader -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
shiplu wrote: During PHPvsPython search I found this info graphic https://www.udemy.com/blog/modern-language-wars/#. Some of the statistics contain Java too. Also you can search PHP and Web Development in big job sites and compare with same search but with Java. 'Python is arguably the most readable programming language' probably says it all? Personally I find it almost impossible to understand when coming in cold to someone elses code ... Java is not much better ... but I still have to persist with both since some key elements of a usable PHP IDE now rely on both :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 05:09:37PM +0100, Lester Caine wrote: shiplu wrote: During PHPvsPython search I found this info graphic https://www.udemy.com/blog/modern-language-wars/#. Some of the statistics contain Java too. Also you can search PHP and Web Development in big job sites and compare with same search but with Java. 'Python is arguably the most readable programming language' probably says it all? Personally I find it almost impossible to understand when coming in cold to someone elses code ... Java is not much better ... but I still have to persist with both since some key elements of a usable PHP IDE now rely on both :( Python may be most readable, but it's a huge fail for two reasons: 1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't imagine. 2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an interpreted programming language. (Don't even start in on C. It's a compiled language.) Java is an incredibly heavy language for web work. Much like Ruby but more so. I'll say it again-- one of the reasons for the popularity of PHP is its similarity to C, at least a passing skill in which is common to most programmers. Paul -- Paul M. Foster http://noferblatz.com http://quillandmouse.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On 20/08/13 15:00, Tedd Sperling wrote: Hi guys: A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP. Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?) Here are my two references: http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y But I do not know how accurate they are. What say you? Cheers, tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com tedd, Java is a meticulously-constructed language with very strict typing and a large commercial organisation which purports to support and develop it. PHP is a scruffy heap of loosely typed cruft which is easy to knock together and build big things from, but has a semi-commercial and community support structure. Guess which one the big commercial organistations (banks, industry etc.) prefer to trust? Guess which is then popular for college courses since it provides the students with a basis in something that is commercially desirable? From my personal point of view, I started with BASIC, then FORTRAN (in a scientific environment), then C/C++, then Java (which I saw as the language C++ should have been), and then moved on to PHP in a search to find a way of building web apps in the sort of timescales that small-medium enterprises are prepared to accept. Popularity is in the eye of the beholder... Cheers Pete -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On 8/20/13 9:00 AM, Tedd Sperling wrote: Hi guys: A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP. Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?) Here are my two references: http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y But I do not know how accurate they are. What say you? Cheers, tedd As others have said, he's simply wrong. :-) Goodness of either language aside, the data (W3Techs is what I usually cite) is clear: For server-side web dev, PHP is the 800 lb gorilla. For all programming combined? Java may be bigger than PHP, sure. For embedded? No question, Java PHP as PHP has almost no presence. For enterprise shops? There probably are segments of the market that are very Java-centric, even on the web, no question. It's all how you define your scope. I'm sure he could come up with some definition of market that would show Java having a bigger marketshare than PHP, within that market. The question is whether that is a valid definition of market in context. Lies, damned lies, and statistics. :-) As countering data-points: Wordpress alone is 18% of the web. Drupal is the #1 CMS used to power US government websites. Universities and Museums are very big on Drupal. (That's my day job. g) PHP's marketshare is huge, even in enterprise. --Larry Garfield -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
I'll chime in on this one. I've been job hunting recently, and I can say that while I've seen a lot of people asking for Java experience, I'm not sure I've seen a single posting asking specifically for PHP. There've been a few looking for Drupal, or Wordpress, but no You must be able to write PHP code to work here. I can also say that the more I work with Java-based programs, the more I want to see Java written into history books as a terrible idea that sadly persisted until nearly 2014. As an example: I need to provide IT support to people using a tool written in Java. It turns out that if you install Java 7, the tool doesn't work at all. If you install Java 6 with the newest updates, it works, but occasionally crashes the entire computer. No, you have to have Java 6 update 22 in order for this software to be reliable. There are other tools I've used that failed completely on minor version switches, and that just plain SHOULDN'T HAPPEN. Yes, there are going to be minor changes when a language upgrades, that's why there are upgrades. But they're usually minor, in a This didn't work the way it was supposed to, so we fixed it kind of way. If you were taking advantage of that bug, you get knocked down, but the vast majority of software will keep running. Java doesn't seem to work that way, at least from an IT worker's perspective. Andy McKenzie On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Tedd Sperling t...@sperling.com wrote: Hi guys: A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP. Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?) Here are my two references: http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y But I do not know how accurate they are. What say you? Cheers, tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
2013/8/20 Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk Sebastian Krebs wrote: 1. He's not my teacher -- he is a fellow teacher AND a smart one! He knows the difference between Java and JavaScript. OKOK, sorry -_- But @topic: For example see http://w3techs.com/**technologies/overview/**programming_language/allhttp://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all Really: Java is a good and mature language, but it is not a web-language. 2. In life, you will find that popularity (often over which is best) is the main reason why things prosper. I think he is simply wrong in his interpretation of the facts. The number of websites powered by PHP vastly exceeds Java and every other language http://w3techs.com/**technologies/overview/**programming_language/allhttp://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all Says it all! But you would never use PHP for a distributed application, and then http://www.langpop.com/ comes into play when the fight is between Java and C/C++ and personally I'm happier with C/C++ than Java even on Android. But even though you would not use PHP for distributed applications, it still gets a good 4th in that chart as well. Exactly, but the initial explicitly states, that this is about web development :D Don't know, what I should think about langpop.com. A popularity listing, that doesn't take github (or any other repo hoster, than google code) into account? :? Its also quite outdated... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contacthttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.**ukhttp://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- github.com/KingCrunch
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
2013/8/20 Andy McKenzie amckenz...@gmail.com I'll chime in on this one. I've been job hunting recently, and I can say that while I've seen a lot of people asking for Java experience, I'm not sure I've seen a single posting asking specifically for PHP. There've been a few looking for Drupal, or Wordpress, but no You must be able to write PHP code to work here. Thats interesting. I am from Berlin and here, when you say you know PHP and a little bit of one, or two frameworks, they will jump onto you :D I can also say that the more I work with Java-based programs, the more I want to see Java written into history books as a terrible idea that sadly persisted until nearly 2014. As an example: I need to provide IT support to people using a tool written in Java. It turns out that if you install Java 7, the tool doesn't work at all. If you install Java 6 with the newest updates, it works, but occasionally crashes the entire computer. No, you have to have Java 6 update 22 in order for this software to be reliable. There are other tools I've used that failed completely on minor version switches, and that just plain SHOULDN'T HAPPEN. Yes, there are going to be minor changes when a language upgrades, that's why there are upgrades. But they're usually minor, in a This didn't work the way it was supposed to, so we fixed it kind of way. If you were taking advantage of that bug, you get knocked down, but the vast majority of software will keep running. Java doesn't seem to work that way, at least from an IT worker's perspective. Andy McKenzie On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Tedd Sperling t...@sperling.com wrote: Hi guys: A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP. Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?) Here are my two references: http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y But I do not know how accurate they are. What say you? Cheers, tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- github.com/KingCrunch
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Paul M Foster pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 05:09:37PM +0100, Lester Caine wrote: shiplu wrote: During PHPvsPython search I found this info graphic https://www.udemy.com/blog/modern-language-wars/#. Some of the statistics contain Java too. Also you can search PHP and Web Development in big job sites and compare with same search but with Java. 'Python is arguably the most readable programming language' probably says it all? Personally I find it almost impossible to understand when coming in cold to someone elses code ... Java is not much better ... but I still have to persist with both since some key elements of a usable PHP IDE now rely on both :( Python may be most readable, but it's a huge fail for two reasons: 1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't imagine. 2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an interpreted programming language. And no ternary operator. tedd ___ tedd sperling tedd.sperl...@gmail.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't imagine. 2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an interpreted programming language. 1. Indent properly. In php, if you put an open or close brace out of place your code will break in unexpected ways as well. If it's hard to tell if something is indented properly, your code should be refactored so that it is. 2. In my experience this has a lot to do with how some people use python and not python itself. On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 12:12 PM, Tedd Sperling tedd.sperl...@gmail.comwrote: On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Paul M Foster pa...@quillandmouse.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 05:09:37PM +0100, Lester Caine wrote: shiplu wrote: During PHPvsPython search I found this info graphic https://www.udemy.com/blog/modern-language-wars/#. Some of the statistics contain Java too. Also you can search PHP and Web Development in big job sites and compare with same search but with Java. 'Python is arguably the most readable programming language' probably says it all? Personally I find it almost impossible to understand when coming in cold to someone elses code ... Java is not much better ... but I still have to persist with both since some key elements of a usable PHP IDE now rely on both :( Python may be most readable, but it's a huge fail for two reasons: 1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't imagine. 2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an interpreted programming language. And no ternary operator. tedd ___ tedd sperling tedd.sperl...@gmail.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- From the desk of Dan Munro
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On Aug 20, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Pete Ford p...@justcroft.com wrote: tedd, Java is a meticulously-constructed language with very strict typing and a large commercial organisation which purports to support and develop it. PHP is a scruffy heap of loosely typed cruft which is easy to knock together and build big things from, but has a semi-commercial and community support structure. Thanks for the info. :-) FYI -- I am teaching both PHP and JAVA at college level and have taught both for several years as well as other Web Languages. My recent question was simply an attempt to get documentation to support which server-side Web Language is the most popular. Both PHP and Java can be used server-side. I also realize that Java is used for native Android because I also teach Mobile Application Development (MAD -- I even coined the name). So, I am up to my butt in languages (and people who think different than me) -- I'm just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know. Thanks, tedd ___ tedd sperling tedd.sperl...@gmail.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Dan Munro d...@danmunro.com wrote: 1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't imagine. 2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an interpreted programming language. 1. Indent properly. In php, if you put an open or close brace out of place your code will break in unexpected ways as well. If it's hard to tell if something is indented properly, your code should be refactored so that it is. 2. In my experience this has a lot to do with how some people use python and not python itself. I can't argue on point two, since that's where all of my worst failure have come from. But as to indenting, I have had the problem of opening a file on a new OS, only to find that the default editor there has wiped out my formatting. With PHP, that's not a big deal: as long as I put my braces in the right places, everything will continue to work. With Python -- or any whitespace delimited language -- it's fatal, and I have to hope I can exit without saving anything. Andy
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On Aug 20, 2013, at 2:19 PM, Sebastian Krebs krebs@gmail.com wrote: Thats interesting. I am from Berlin and here, when you say you know PHP and a little bit of one, or two frameworks, they will jump onto you I'll stay away from Berlin. :-) tedd ___ tedd sperling t...@sperling.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
2013/8/20 Andy McKenzie amckenz...@gmail.com On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Dan Munro d...@danmunro.com wrote: 1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't imagine. 2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an interpreted programming language. 1. Indent properly. In php, if you put an open or close brace out of place your code will break in unexpected ways as well. If it's hard to tell if something is indented properly, your code should be refactored so that it is. 2. In my experience this has a lot to do with how some people use python and not python itself. I can't argue on point two, since that's where all of my worst failure have come from. But as to indenting, I have had the problem of opening a file on a new OS, only to find that the default editor there has wiped out my formatting. Who is with me? Thats a good point to restart the tabs-vs-spaces-discussion, isn't? *duckandrun* :D With PHP, that's not a big deal: as long as I put my braces in the right places, everything will continue to work. With Python -- or any whitespace delimited language -- it's fatal, and I have to hope I can exit without saving anything. Andy -- github.com/KingCrunch
RE: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
My recent question was simply an attempt to get documentation to support which server-side Web Language is the most popular. Both PHP and Java can be used server-side. I also realize that Java is used for native Android because I also teach Mobile Application Development (MAD -- I even coined the name). So, I am up to my butt in languages (and people who think different than me) -- I'm just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know. Well, technically any language can be used server side, it is all on how you set up your server, no? I would tend to think that the biggest out there, is html/php/javascript... and next to that, would be asp, and then java. Do I have proof of this? No, can I get proof, I doubt it, and are there stats on this? To be honest, in my opinion, that would be like asking how big is the internet?. It is virtually an immeasurable object. There are so many websites out there, that you can't search them all... PHP is simple, and yet powerful to use, and is pretty much the standard for all hosting companies. Now, there is this link... http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html It shows Java as #1, and php as #5, but this is also for PROGRAMMING, does not specify web based programming vs desktop vs MAD (thanks tedd ;) ) so the numbers do not really speak out in this application. Does it really matter? PHP is very huge, widely used, and I would even go so far as to say the 'norm' for website developers, and hosting providers. But that is my $0.02, and for me, I have been with PHP for 7 years professionally, and in college I took VB.net, ASP.net, C++, JAVA and PHP. Only recently have I gotten into C# for desktop applications. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
2013/8/20 Steven Staples sstap...@mnsi.net My recent question was simply an attempt to get documentation to support which server-side Web Language is the most popular. Both PHP and Java can be used server-side. I also realize that Java is used for native Android because I also teach Mobile Application Development (MAD -- I even coined the name). So, I am up to my butt in languages (and people who think different than me) -- I'm just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know. Well, technically any language can be used server side, it is all on how you set up your server, no? No. But since node.js I lack an example :D But of course you need the link between the language and the network. I would tend to think that the biggest out there, is html/php/javascript... and next to that, would be asp, and then java. Do I have proof of this? No, can I get proof, I doubt it, and are there stats on this? To be honest, in my opinion, that would be like asking how big is the internet?. It is virtually an immeasurable object. There are so many websites out there, that you can't search them all... Of course you cannot search them _all_, but again the link: http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all There are good hints, how the internet looks like. For example a hoster can simply look at the products he sell. Services like w3techs.com use the reports from the server themself (in most cases the headers), or the file-ending (doesn't work anymore that good, since most sites hide them ;)) and extrapolate this. Of course they are not exact, but I think they show the direction quite accurate. PHP is simple, and yet powerful to use, and is pretty much the standard for all hosting companies. Now, there is this link... http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html It shows Java as #1, and php as #5, but this is also for PROGRAMMING, does not specify web based programming vs desktop vs MAD (thanks tedd ;) ) so the numbers do not really speak out in this application. Also it is the Tiobe-Index. Although it is widely-referenced, the way it calculates their rankings is ... interesting. In fact it only tells you how loud a community around a specific language is. So for example maybe Java is #1, because it is so complex, that it leads to many questions in forums and on stackoverflow. Or PHP is only #5, because most communication is on IRC, or mailinglists. (disclaimer: Of course I faked this examples. Actually I have no idea how the communities around Java and PHP as a whole interacts primary, but I don't think, that they are all equal). I just think, that the Tiobe-Index has a completely different view on what is a popular language, than I have. Does it really matter? PHP is very huge, widely used, and I would even go so far as to say the 'norm' for website developers, and hosting providers. Nope, it doesn't matter :) But that is my $0.02, and for me, I have been with PHP for 7 years professionally, and in college I took VB.net, ASP.net, C++, JAVA and PHP. Only recently have I gotten into C# for desktop applications. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- github.com/KingCrunch
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
in my opinion, that would be like asking how big is the internet?. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/18/heres-what-you-find-when-you-scan-the-entire-internet-in-an-hour/ On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Sebastian Krebs krebs@gmail.comwrote: 2013/8/20 Steven Staples sstap...@mnsi.net My recent question was simply an attempt to get documentation to support which server-side Web Language is the most popular. Both PHP and Java can be used server-side. I also realize that Java is used for native Android because I also teach Mobile Application Development (MAD -- I even coined the name). So, I am up to my butt in languages (and people who think different than me) -- I'm just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know. Well, technically any language can be used server side, it is all on how you set up your server, no? No. But since node.js I lack an example :D But of course you need the link between the language and the network. I would tend to think that the biggest out there, is html/php/javascript... and next to that, would be asp, and then java. Do I have proof of this? No, can I get proof, I doubt it, and are there stats on this? To be honest, in my opinion, that would be like asking how big is the internet?. It is virtually an immeasurable object. There are so many websites out there, that you can't search them all... Of course you cannot search them _all_, but again the link: http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all There are good hints, how the internet looks like. For example a hoster can simply look at the products he sell. Services like w3techs.com use the reports from the server themself (in most cases the headers), or the file-ending (doesn't work anymore that good, since most sites hide them ;)) and extrapolate this. Of course they are not exact, but I think they show the direction quite accurate. PHP is simple, and yet powerful to use, and is pretty much the standard for all hosting companies. Now, there is this link... http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html It shows Java as #1, and php as #5, but this is also for PROGRAMMING, does not specify web based programming vs desktop vs MAD (thanks tedd ;) ) so the numbers do not really speak out in this application. Also it is the Tiobe-Index. Although it is widely-referenced, the way it calculates their rankings is ... interesting. In fact it only tells you how loud a community around a specific language is. So for example maybe Java is #1, because it is so complex, that it leads to many questions in forums and on stackoverflow. Or PHP is only #5, because most communication is on IRC, or mailinglists. (disclaimer: Of course I faked this examples. Actually I have no idea how the communities around Java and PHP as a whole interacts primary, but I don't think, that they are all equal). I just think, that the Tiobe-Index has a completely different view on what is a popular language, than I have. Does it really matter? PHP is very huge, widely used, and I would even go so far as to say the 'norm' for website developers, and hosting providers. Nope, it doesn't matter :) But that is my $0.02, and for me, I have been with PHP for 7 years professionally, and in college I took VB.net, ASP.net, C++, JAVA and PHP. Only recently have I gotten into C# for desktop applications. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- github.com/KingCrunch -- From the desk of Dan Munro
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On 20 Aug 2013, at 21:08, Sebastian Krebs krebs@gmail.com wrote: 2013/8/20 Steven Staples sstap...@mnsi.net My recent question was simply an attempt to get documentation to support which server-side Web Language is the most popular. Both PHP and Java can be used server-side. I also realize that Java is used for native Android because I also teach Mobile Application Development (MAD -- I even coined the name). So, I am up to my butt in languages (and people who think different than me) -- I'm just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know. Well, technically any language can be used server side, it is all on how you set up your server, no? No. But since node.js I lack an example :D But of course you need the link between the language and the network. The language and the 'link between the language and the network' are two completely separate things. The link, as you put it, is the web server. A web server doesn't need to do anything more than set up environment variables and run an executable, and even setting up the environment is technically optional. BASH can build web pages. I wouldn't recommend using BASH, but there's nothing technically preventing it. Node.js is not the only way to run Javascript outside a browser, and other ways of doing so existed long before Node.js arrived. Most limitations people put on technology are artificial constructions rather than real constraints. tedd: I wouldn't trust any stats you might find since, as has been pointed out, it's incredibly difficult to accurately measure. I'd be careful with the word popular because it really depends on what you're measuring. If you're talking public websites then I'd agree that, anecdotally at least, PHP is more common than any other server-side language. If you're talking about public site visitors or page views it's definitely the most popular, but that's massively skewed by Facebook if you accept that their way of using PHP can still be called PHP. Enterprise usage of PHP is far lower, mainly due to Microsoft's dominance, but I get the feeling this is changing, albeit incredibly slowly. If he means Java is the most popular as in developers would prefer to use it then I'd definitely disagree, but I wouldn't necessarily say that PHP is at the top of that list either. Ultimately I'd want to know what he's trying to prove by saying that. If he's purely engaging in a mine's bigger than yours discussion I'd walk away, leave him to his petty games and actually accomplish something with the time instead. -Stuart -- Stuart Dallas 3ft9 Ltd http://3ft9.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On 20 Aug 2013, at 21:30, Dan Munro d...@danmunro.com wrote: in my opinion, that would be like asking how big is the internet?. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/18/heres-what-you-find-when-you-scan-the-entire-internet-in-an-hour/ That's scanning IP addresses and doesn't come close to answering how big is the internet, assuming that means how many sites are there rather than how many publicly responsive edge servers exist. -Stuart -- Stuart Dallas 3ft9 Ltd http://3ft9.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On Tue, 2013-08-20 at 21:44 +0100, Stuart Dallas wrote: On 20 Aug 2013, at 21:30, Dan Munro d...@danmunro.com wrote: in my opinion, that would be like asking how big is the internet?. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/18/heres-what-you-find-when-you-scan-the-entire-internet-in-an-hour/ That's scanning IP addresses and doesn't come close to answering how big is the internet, assuming that means how many sites are there rather than how many publicly responsive edge servers exist. -Stuart -- Stuart Dallas 3ft9 Ltd http://3ft9.com/ I'd argue that a large proportion of really secure servers out there won't respond to a lot of what Zmap pings out. Nmap works by throwing out requests on a bunch of different ports, not just ping, which is slow, so I'd be surprised if Zmap could really rival that while giving the same results. Bearing in mind there are over 4,000 million (I won't say billion, because that's a million million, despite what the Americans say!) IPv4 address out there, 40 minutes is a ridiculous amount of time to even scan half of that, especially given the fact that IPv6 is being majorly pushed because IPv4 is apparently running out of free address space! Then not forgetting that lots of websites exist on the same IP address/range, I would say the article is lacking on so many details as to be untrue. Thanks, Ash http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On 20 Aug 2013, at 22:00, Ashley Sheridan a...@ashleysheridan.co.uk wrote: On Tue, 2013-08-20 at 21:44 +0100, Stuart Dallas wrote: On 20 Aug 2013, at 21:30, Dan Munro d...@danmunro.com wrote: in my opinion, that would be like asking how big is the internet?. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/18/heres-what-you-find-when-you-scan-the-entire-internet-in-an-hour/ That's scanning IP addresses and doesn't come close to answering how big is the internet, assuming that means how many sites are there rather than how many publicly responsive edge servers exist. I'd argue that a large proportion of really secure servers out there won't respond to a lot of what Zmap pings out. Nmap works by throwing out requests on a bunch of different ports, not just ping, which is slow, so I'd be surprised if Zmap could really rival that while giving the same results. Bearing in mind there are over 4,000 million (I won't say billion, because that's a million million, despite what the Americans say!) IPv4 address out there, 40 minutes is a ridiculous amount of time to even scan half of that, especially given the fact that IPv6 is being majorly pushed because IPv4 is apparently running out of free address space! Then not forgetting that lots of websites exist on the same IP address/range, I would say the article is lacking on so many details as to be untrue. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's untrue, but it's certainly written with exaggerated implications. -Stuart -- Stuart Dallas 3ft9 Ltd http://3ft9.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
Tedd Sperling wrote: I'm just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_languages_used_in_most_popular_websites may be a better starting point, but there are no citations to the facts, they are a little dated, and some sites are a little biased in their choices? Move to the top 40 sites and PHP fares a little better - http://rogchap.com/2011/09/06/top-40-website-programming-languages/ but but this data is a little dataed now. Personally I've always used the W3techs figures when I'm doing talks as it is the only consistent source I've found. The netcraft figures would be nice but they only run this intermittently, and last January's figure of 244 million sites at 39% of machines seems a little at odds with the W3techs ones? http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language continues to show PHP rising at the expense of ASP and Java with Perl, Ruby and Python having trouble to stay above 1% combined over the last year. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
Zmap works by being stateless, so while nmap records which requests go out, zmap fires and forgets, and encodes the request in such a way that the response can provide whatever details it needs to continue the scan. No magic here. On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Tedd Sperling wrote: I'm just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Programming_languages_used_in_** most_popular_websiteshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_languages_used_in_most_popular_websitesmay be a better starting point, but there are no citations to the facts, they are a little dated, and some sites are a little biased in their choices? Move to the top 40 sites and PHP fares a little better - http://rogchap.com/2011/09/06/**top-40-website-programming-**languages/http://rogchap.com/2011/09/06/top-40-website-programming-languages/but but this data is a little dataed now. Personally I've always used the W3techs figures when I'm doing talks as it is the only consistent source I've found. The netcraft figures would be nice but they only run this intermittently, and last January's figure of 244 million sites at 39% of machines seems a little at odds with the W3techs ones? http://w3techs.com/ **technologies/history_overview/**programming_languagehttp://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_languagecontinues to show PHP rising at the expense of ASP and Java with Perl, Ruby and Python having trouble to stay above 1% combined over the last year. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contacthttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.**ukhttp://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- From the desk of Dan Munro
Re: [PHP] PHP vs JAVA
On 8/20/2013 10:00 AM, Tedd Sperling wrote: Hi guys: A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP. Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?) While I don't have any references to back it up - my guess would be that Java may be seen as more versatile in general programming terms. A staggering number of enterprise level web applications are built with Java, add to that the possibility of writing Android apps with the same knowledge. Of course, there are many ways to make Android apps without Java - I've written a few myself with simple HTML and Flash Builder. I would say that, in general, the other teacher is incorrect speaking strictly in terms of web development. PHP has already won that crown many times over. That said, when I was in University, it was difficult to find a programming class that taught anything but Java - and that was 10yrs ago now. I chalked it up to the education bubble not being able to see what the rest of the world is actually doing. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs ASP.NET
Will Assembly be replaced by LOLCODE? Nonsense - they're separate entities. KTHXBYE -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] PHP vs ASP.NET
Hi! Guys, you of course, know that ASP.NET becomes more and more popular in the world. I have a question for everyone: Can it happen so that PHP will be replaced with ASP.NET?
[PHP] PHP vs ASP.NET
Hi! Guys, you of course, know that ASP.NET becomes more and more popular in the world. I have a question for everyone: Can it happen so that PHP will be replaced with ASP.NET?
RE: [PHP] PHP vs ASP.NET
No. Bob McConnell -Original Message- From: Olexandr Heneralov [mailto:ohenera...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 9:21 AM To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: [PHP] PHP vs ASP.NET Hi! Guys, you of course, know that ASP.NET becomes more and more popular in the world. I have a question for everyone: Can it happen so that PHP will be replaced with ASP.NET? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs ASP.NET
On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 16:20 +0300, Olexandr Heneralov wrote: Hi! Guys, you of course, know that ASP.NET becomes more and more popular in the world. I have a question for everyone: Can it happen so that PHP will be replaced with ASP.NET? It is unlikely. Open source continues to grow, and as such free and unrestricted alternatives to the iron-fisted grip of closed source technologies will always be in demand. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs ASP.NET
On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 09:39, Robert Cummings rob...@interjinn.com wrote: It's not really a stupid question. Some people aren't sufficiently aware of other technologies to know the answer. It may seem simplistic to many of us, but not to those new to the culture. Well, even though I forgot to tack-on my smiley face, the more I read the original post, the more my point is validated. The question is posed in such a manner that it would suggest PHP is a legacy language being replaced by ASP. Will Visual Basic be replaced by Visual Basic .NET? That makes sense. Will Assembly be replaced by LOLCODE? Nonsense - they're separate entities. It's not a matter of not understanding open source technology, it's a matter of not understanding the basics of programming and development languages and semantics. And don't get me wrong --- I don't fault the original poster for this. It's an age-old question that pops up again and again (interesting side-note: when you query Google for 'php vs asp metrics' - without the quotes, of course - a quick article I wrote back in February is the top result). The problem is the lack of education and understanding that different languages have different strengths, weaknesses, features, and purposes, and comparing them - indeed, inquiring if one will replace another - is a dumb question. Which then raises the difference: a *dumb* question is often asked by a *smart* person. So it shouldn't be confused with an insult to the OP by any means. -- /Daniel P. Brown daniel.br...@parasane.net || danbr...@php.net http://www.parasane.net/ || http://www.pilotpig.net/ 50% Off All Shared Hosting Plans at PilotPig: Use Coupon DOW1 -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs ASP.NET
On 5/28/09 9:20 AM, Olexandr Heneralov ohenera...@gmail.com wrote: I have a question for everyone: Can it happen so that PHP will be replaced with ASP.NET? why you pry it out of my cold dead hand ;-) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs ASP.NET
On Thu, 2009-05-28 at 14:29 +0100, Lester Caine wrote: Olexandr Heneralov wrote: Hi! Guys, you of course, know that ASP.NET becomes more and more popular in the world. I have a question for everyone: Can it happen so that PHP will be replaced with ASP.NET? Perhaps when it runs on Linux servers? Personally I'm moving more stuff OFF Windows servers and onto Linux than the other way. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php .Net does run on Linux servers, through a project called Mono. I've yet to see it offered by a hosting company yet though. Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] PHP vs Delphi Comparison?
I'm looking for a way to introduce PHP to some Delphi programmers, so I thought a comparison would show them the major differences, but I can't find anything like that on the web. Anyone have an article like that or know of one? - Dan -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
On Wed, August 24, 2005 7:32 am, Rick Emery wrote: Quoting Richard Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Just for a test case, write a 10-line ASP script that does something similar, if much simpler, and pound on it on the same box with the Padcom clients. I did that when the problem first appeared. Great minds think alike :-) I'm betting you'll have the SAME ISSUE, and that the problem has NOTHING to do with PHP whatsoever. And you'd win that bet. I thought that would be the proof I'd need to show that it wasn't PHP, but management has some notion that PHP might have somehow tainted IIS. Install it on a different box, which has IIS/ASP, and *NO* PHP was ever installed. It can be any old box out of the closet, that you wipe and install Windows, IIS, ASP and NOTHING else. Same bug? Then it CANNOT be a PHP bug, can it? Even PHB from Dilbert should understand that one... Though, honestly, it sounds like they just aren't going to listen to facts -- not even the ones about how much this is costing them. I may not be making ends meet, but I sure am happy not to have to put up with this kind of crap any more :-v -- Like Music? http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
On Tue, August 23, 2005 9:44 am, Rick Emery wrote: Quoting Rick Emery [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ugh, we're *never* going to make a decision. My boss just sent me this email: I wrote an application, using PHP5, that displays a list and refreshes every 30 seconds (the data is constantly changing, but a 30 second delay is acceptable). As I've indicated previously, we're a Microsoft shop, so the data comes from MS SQL Server 2000. No problems, the app worked great using my workstation as the server with a few clients running the app from it. It even worked when we moved it to a server and opened it up to everyone on our intranet (for a while). We have two different types of clients. Some use desktop computers, physically connected to our network, while others use mobile laptops connected to our network via cellular (using Sprint AirCards) using third-party VPN software (Padcom, in case anyone's familiar). We set the application up on a Windows 2000 Server with IIS (5, I think), and it would work fine for about a day. Then Padcom clients kept stopping. They'd request the page and, after a loong time, display a message that the request timed out. This would seemingly happen for all Padcom-connected clients at the same time, though the desktops continued to work fine. We restarted the server running the Padcom software with no effect. We restarted IIS on the web server with no effect. The only thing (seemingly) that cleared the issue was rebooting the server running IIS. Just for a test case, write a 10-line ASP script that does something similar, if much simpler, and pound on it on the same box with the Padcom clients. I'm betting you'll have the SAME ISSUE, and that the problem has NOTHING to do with PHP whatsoever. PHP works fine with IIS and Windows. Or, rather, PHP doesn't make IIS and Windows any LESS stable than they already were without PHP. has mentioned changing anything, until this morning. My manager informed me in our meeting that no language could be chosen unless it works under IIS. I'll say it again: There is *NOTHING* wrong with PHP and IIS. IIS and Windows are badly-broken, all on their own, without PHP. So, I'm faced with finding an obscur problem, running on obscur software (the vendor for Padcom, of course, insists that they've never seen this problem). I'm confident that the problem has *nothing* to do with PHP, but am forced by management to try to prove it. If you can prove it, showing the same problem in ASP, then what? Are they going to let you move the application back to a real server? In fact, you could probably get ahold of a Padcom and prove it to yourself in a days' work, and then get them to agree that if it's not PHP nor your script that's broken, but Windows+IIS, then maybe they should just leave the WORKING stuff alone. Probably won't work. But that's how office politics work. -- Like Music? http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Just a quick note to thank everybody who has replied. I've been getting a lot of feedback, and won't be able to reply to all of the messages I've received, but I appreciate each and every one of them and don't want anybody to feel left out. Thanks again, Rick -- Rick Emery When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return -- Leonardo Da Vinci -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Quoting Jay Paulson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Have you tried PHP 4.x? Give that a shot and see what effects that has on the application. I've recommended that as a troubleshooting step, and it's a great idea. If it ends up working out, I'll almost be bummed because I like some of the new features in PHP 5. The app won't require too many changes, except that it relies pretty heavily on XML, and SimpleXML made things really easy. I've never done XML processing with PHP 4, but from a brief glance at the manual, it doesn't look very simple. Still, it's worth a shot. You might want to post the code for your application on the list so we all can see it (remember to remove usernames, passwords, and ip #'s). There are some really smart and innovative people on this list, and the thought had crossed my mind. But the code is pretty lengthy, and frankly I'd be embarassed to have anybody look at it :-) It's too bad you have to use Windows and IIS. Just curious but why are they not wanting to use Linux? Do they know it's free and way less likely to be attacked? I've made this argument numerous times. Management seemed to be receptive, and I thought they were starting to change their Microsoft only attitudes, so the statement from my boss that management said it has to run on IIS really caught me by surprise. Thanks, Rick -- Rick Emery When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return -- Leonardo Da Vinci -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Quoting Miles Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Rick, Deepest sympathy. So you have a solution which works, for everyone, but doctrine dictates differently. I'd suspect VPN / IIS interaction. If I was your manager, I'd take comfort from the FACT that you were able to switch everything over to Linux and it ran w/o difficulty. Cripes, if you had this problem with ColdFusion you'd be sitting there, a lonely soul, amongst the finger-pointers, and nothing would be running. You took the words right out of my mouth, and said it so eloquently that I nearly forwarded it to management as echoing my feelings and frustration. Unfortunately (or fortunately, I guess) I didn't have the guts to do it; I'd be risking getting in trouble (they've been know to reprimand people because of the tone in an email). Thanks, Rick -- Rick Emery When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return -- Leonardo Da Vinci -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Quoting Jim Moseby [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Can they access other (non-php) pages on that server during one of these failures? No. I wrote an ASP page that displays the same data with the same refresh rate. When the PHP app fails, the ASP page is also inaccessible. I thought this proved it wasn't a PHP problem, but management was unconvinced that PHP didn't somehow taint IIS and cause the problem. Can they PING the server? Yes, which (in my mind) points to an IIS issue. I don't have the proper knowledge of Windows or IIS to troubleshoot it, but one of my co-workers has a theory about Windows and its dynamic routing tables. Have your network people had a look at a packet capture from the network during one of the failures? If they did, they would see what was happening. I've discussed this with the network administator. That's going to be one of our troubleshooting steps going forward. The fact that you say it is ONLY the padcom clients is enlightening because it means this is not a server failure, but a failure somewhere in between or at the client itself. In any case, I don't think your boss's requirement that whatever language is chosen must run on IIS (ack!) is violated, because PHP runs quite nicely on thousands (I'm sure) of IIS servers. Agreed. JM Windows: 32-bit extensions and a graphic shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit OS originally coded for a 4-bit CPU, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition. My co-workers and I had a good laugh over this signature :-) Thanks, Rick -- Rick Emery When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return -- Leonardo Da Vinci -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Quoting Nathan Tobik [EMAIL PROTECTED]: snip Have you tried PHP 4.x? Give that a shot and see what effects that has on the application. /snip We have used PHP with IIS and SQL Server like you said, I can say from experience that PHP 5 had the same problems as the initial poster described. The pages would time out and hang randomly. I put a 4.x version of PHP on the machine and it's been working ever since. That will probably be our next step (once I rewrite the XML portions of the application). It's encouraging that it fixed your problem. Also if you plan on using PHP with SQL Server and Linux we have been using 5 with no problems for over a year now. It gets pretty heavy use daily. I just checked the uptime of the linux machine that's currently hosting the production app (which is an old desktop machine we had sitting around gathering dust; a Pentium III 800 w/256MB RAM, and is handling the load perfectly); 54+ days of 24/7 operations, and still going strong. The only gripe I have is FreeTDS only allows one connection at a time, I'd love to use a JDBC driver with PHP. We're looking at using PHP and Hibernate which would let us use JDBC.. Best of luck. I managed this with PEAR's Cache_Lite package. When the first client requests the data, the server app hits the database once and stores the data in a cache. Every subsequent request gets its data from the cache, until it expires 30 seconds later. Then the pattern repeats. So only one DB connection works fine for us. Thanks, Rick -- Rick Emery When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return -- Leonardo Da Vinci -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Quoting Richard Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Just for a test case, write a 10-line ASP script that does something similar, if much simpler, and pound on it on the same box with the Padcom clients. I did that when the problem first appeared. Great minds think alike :-) I'm betting you'll have the SAME ISSUE, and that the problem has NOTHING to do with PHP whatsoever. And you'd win that bet. I thought that would be the proof I'd need to show that it wasn't PHP, but management has some notion that PHP might have somehow tainted IIS. PHP works fine with IIS and Windows. I've tried to tell the that there are Fortune 500 companies running PHP on Windows and IIS (there are, right?). Or, rather, PHP doesn't make IIS and Windows any LESS stable than they already were without PHP. :-) I'll say it again: There is *NOTHING* wrong with PHP and IIS. I agree. Unfortunately, I have to prove that to them before they'll look elsewhere for the problem. Ugh. IIS and Windows are badly-broken, all on their own, without PHP. :-) In fact, you could probably get ahold of a Padcom and prove it to yourself in a days' work, and then get them to agree that if it's not PHP nor your script that's broken, but Windows+IIS, then maybe they should just leave the WORKING stuff alone. Probably won't work. But that's how office politics work. Exactly what I'm finding out. Thanks, Rick -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
I'm betting you'll have the SAME ISSUE, and that the problem has NOTHING to do with PHP whatsoever. And you'd win that bet. I thought that would be the proof I'd need to show that it wasn't PHP, but management has some notion that PHP might have somehow tainted IIS. Gotta love a management group that doesn't listen to their IT guys and think they know the answer to all the IT problems even though they have no clue about IT. I've been there done that and guess what? I'm still doing it to this day. I think it's one of those never ending things. What you should do is configure IIS to parse PHP with .asp extensions and just tell them that it's ASP. Now that would be funny! PHP works fine with IIS and Windows. I've tried to tell the that there are Fortune 500 companies running PHP on Windows and IIS (there are, right?). Target, Tickmaster, Yahoo, Amazon, and the list goes on and on. I'll say it again: There is *NOTHING* wrong with PHP and IIS. I agree. Unfortunately, I have to prove that to them before they'll look elsewhere for the problem. Ugh. Sounds like to me you are getting to the point where you just need to slap them! ;-) In fact, you could probably get ahold of a Padcom and prove it to yourself in a days' work, and then get them to agree that if it's not PHP nor your script that's broken, but Windows+IIS, then maybe they should just leave the WORKING stuff alone. Probably won't work. But that's how office politics work. Exactly what I'm finding out. Or you could leave IIS on the Windows machine and install Apache on the same Windows box and run PHP using Apache on Windows and see if that solves your problem. Then of course don't tell management that you are running Apache! ;-) On a serious note something that might change their mind (this is what I did). Go do some research about real stories of companies dealing with Windows+IIS and the hard ships they have encountered and why they switched to something else. I'm sure getting stats on how many more times you are likely to get hack attempts with a Windows+IIS vs. an Linux+Apache is out there some where. I'm sure that's a pretty startling surprise. If management cares at all about security and the up time of their applications etc then they won't be able to ignore facts that have already happened. Then again I've pointed out security flaws in code and server setup at a company I work for in which their computer security, if broken into, could cost the business to go under and what have they done? Nothing. When did I point this out to them? 8 months ago. Do I continue to bug them and show them what kind of damage I can do to their organization? Yep. Do they know because of this they could lose millions of dollars and lose high profile contracts? Yep. Do they listen and do anything about it? Nope. *shrug* There's only so much you can do with people who have a one track mind and refuse to see what you are showing them. Anyway, sorry for the tangent! Good luck convincing management! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
I'm betting you'll have the SAME ISSUE, and that the problem has NOTHING to do with PHP whatsoever. And you'd win that bet. I thought that would be the proof I'd need to show that it wasn't PHP, but management has some notion that PHP might have somehow tainted IIS. Gotta love a management group that doesn't listen to their IT guys and think they know the answer to all the IT problems even though they have no clue about IT. I've been there done that and guess what? I'm still doing it to this day. I think it's one of those never ending things. What you should do is configure IIS to parse PHP with .asp extensions and just tell them that it's ASP. Now that would be funny! PHP works fine with IIS and Windows. I've tried to tell the that there are Fortune 500 companies running PHP on Windows and IIS (there are, right?). Target, Tickmaster, Yahoo, Amazon, and the list goes on and on. Not too sure about this: http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=amazon.com http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=ticketmaster.com etc PHP, possibly, but not on IIS and Windows. Or you could leave IIS on the Windows machine and install Apache on the same Windows box and run PHP using Apache on Windows and see if that solves your problem. Then of course don't tell management that you are running Apache! ;-) Class idea! I think you should do this! Good luck -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
I've tried to tell the that there are Fortune 500 companies running PHP on Windows and IIS (there are, right?). Target, Tickmaster, Yahoo, Amazon, and the list goes on and on. Not too sure about this: http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=amazon.com http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=ticketmaster.com etc PHP, possibly, but not on IIS and Windows. I remember at OSCON a couple years ago they said that amazon and ticketmaster where using PHP. They might just hide it well or they might be using it for smaller applications within the company. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
It's too bad you have to use Windows and IIS. Just curious but why are they not wanting to use Linux? Do they know it's free and way less likely to be attacked? I've made this argument numerous times. Management seemed to be receptive, and I thought they were starting to change their Microsoft only attitudes, so the statement from my boss that management said it has to run on IIS really caught me by surprise. I think you might be going about this the wrong way... If I understand this thread correctly, your app *works* on linux/php. It breaks on windows/php. So it's working, right? Which is all they should care about, but they don't? So, write up a little document showing how much time (which equals money) you're spending trying to fix something that really isn't broken except in the eye's of management. This thread's been going on for a couple of days now. Assuming you've done nothing else for those several days and I've seen mention of discussing it with other engineers and sysadmins... just how much money has the company spent on this non-problem? Then since it also seems like you're not that much closer to solving the problem, estimate how much additional time it's going to take to fix it. Then show them the bottom line. That the company has spent $2,000 so far and will probably spend another $3,000 until it's fixed. Not to mention all your other projects being delayed. That's another $5,000. Ask them if this is worth spending $10,000 to fix something which isn't broken. Then be sure to tell them you will be happy to revisit the problem when there is *nothing else to do* I've had issues like this.. usually they want to know how long it will take to port our application from FreeBSD/PHP/PostgreSQL to Windows/ASP/SQLServer and when I tell them at least six months, probably a year, they decide maybe it's not worth it to satisfy someones need to say yes, we run on windows! (and yes, I know php,postgresql is available for windows now, but that's not the point) Anyway, might work... then again it might not. But it changes it from a technical discussion to a financial one which is how they think. good luck! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
On Mon, August 22, 2005 12:03 pm, Robert Cummings wrote: On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 14:16, Rick Emery wrote: I read the following article and I wanted your feedback on it. http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2002/papers/html/php/#section_6. I I only read half-way through it... His first thesis (Section 2, after the Intro) that PHP's strength comes from co-mingling HTML and business logic has some merit... But, really, you can make a mess of that equally well in ANY language. Only a disciplined architecture and design will stop that. Section 3 Since this section is based on FACTUALLY INCORRECT statements, it's utter bullshit. Re-defining a function in PHP generates an error. The PHP class system provides distinct name-spaces for functions (and more) His entire these is un-tenable. Section 4 Again, FACTUALLY INCORRECT. Virtually *all* of the settings can be over-ridden in .htaccess, and/or in PHP code itself. At this point, I quit reading. It's clear the author has NO CLUE about how PHP actually works. When a guy writes a document that is all anti-PHP that is FACTUALLY INCORRECT, why would you bother to use it for anything at all? PS There are also several typos in the document, which never helps. -- Like Music? http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Quoting Rick Emery [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ugh, we're *never* going to make a decision. My boss just sent me this email: A *huge* THANK YOU! to everybody who replied; it was extremely helpful and, after my meeting with my manager this morning, she seemed to accept that the article was dated and had inaccurate information. Unfortunately, I may be fighting an uphill battle. I'll give background for those who seemed interested in our progress, but it's pretty long, so feel free to delete this and move on to your regularly scheduled messages (though I'm secretly hoping that someone will have helpful information or suggestions). I wrote an application, using PHP5, that displays a list and refreshes every 30 seconds (the data is constantly changing, but a 30 second delay is acceptable). As I've indicated previously, we're a Microsoft shop, so the data comes from MS SQL Server 2000. No problems, the app worked great using my workstation as the server with a few clients running the app from it. It even worked when we moved it to a server and opened it up to everyone on our intranet (for a while). We have two different types of clients. Some use desktop computers, physically connected to our network, while others use mobile laptops connected to our network via cellular (using Sprint AirCards) using third-party VPN software (Padcom, in case anyone's familiar). We set the application up on a Windows 2000 Server with IIS (5, I think), and it would work fine for about a day. Then Padcom clients kept stopping. They'd request the page and, after a loong time, display a message that the request timed out. This would seemingly happen for all Padcom-connected clients at the same time, though the desktops continued to work fine. We restarted the server running the Padcom software with no effect. We restarted IIS on the web server with no effect. The only thing (seemingly) that cleared the issue was rebooting the server running IIS. I spent a day and a half looking at the issue with the network and server administrators, but nobody could find where the problem was. So, we moved it to a Windows 2003 Server with IIS 6; same problem. On my own, I set up a linux server with apache and placed the application there. They changed the DNS record to point to the linux server, and it has run flawlessly ever since (53 days, 22 hours, 11 minutes). Nobody has mentioned changing anything, until this morning. My manager informed me in our meeting that no language could be chosen unless it works under IIS. So, I'm faced with finding an obscur problem, running on obscur software (the vendor for Padcom, of course, insists that they've never seen this problem). I'm confident that the problem has *nothing* to do with PHP, but am forced by management to try to prove it. That's it in a nutshell. Thanks again to everybody for your help and support. Rick -- Rick Emery When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return -- Leonardo Da Vinci -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Ugh, we're *never* going to make a decision. My boss just sent me this email: A *huge* THANK YOU! to everybody who replied; it was extremely helpful and, after my meeting with my manager this morning, she seemed to accept that the article was dated and had inaccurate information. Thanks for the update! Unfortunately, I may be fighting an uphill battle. I'll give background for those who seemed interested in our progress, but it's pretty long, so feel free to delete this and move on to your regularly scheduled messages (though I'm secretly hoping that someone will have helpful information or suggestions). I wrote an application, using PHP5, that displays a list and refreshes every 30 seconds (the data is constantly changing, but a 30 second delay is acceptable). As I've indicated previously, we're a Microsoft shop, so the data comes from MS SQL Server 2000. No problems, the app worked great using my workstation as the server with a few clients running the app from it. It even worked when we moved it to a server and opened it up to everyone on our intranet (for a while). We set the application up on a Windows 2000 Server with IIS (5, I think), and it would work fine for about a day. Then Padcom clients kept stopping. They'd request the page and, after a loong time, display a message that the request timed out. This would seemingly happen for all Padcom-connected clients at the same time, though the desktops continued to work fine. We restarted the server running the Padcom software with no effect. We restarted IIS on the web server with no effect. The only thing (seemingly) that cleared the issue was rebooting the server running IIS. Have you tried PHP 4.x? Give that a shot and see what effects that has on the application. I spent a day and a half looking at the issue with the network and server administrators, but nobody could find where the problem was. So, we moved it to a Windows 2003 Server with IIS 6; same problem. On my own, I set up a linux server with apache and placed the application there. They changed the DNS record to point to the linux server, and it has run flawlessly ever since (53 days, 22 hours, 11 minutes). Nobody has mentioned changing anything, until this morning. My manager informed me in our meeting that no language could be chosen unless it works under IIS. You might want to post the code for your application on the list so we all can see it (remember to remove usernames, passwords, and ip #'s). It's too bad you have to use Windows and IIS. Just curious but why are they not wanting to use Linux? Do they know it's free and way less likely to be attacked? Also, I'm sure there are people on this list that are experienced with Windows and IIS that can help you determine if something with the setup of it needs to be changed in order for your code to work. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
At 01:44 PM 8/23/2005, Rick Emery wrote: Quoting Rick Emery [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ugh, we're *never* going to make a decision. My boss just sent me this email: A *huge* THANK YOU! to everybody who replied; it was extremely helpful and, after my meeting with my manager this morning, she seemed to accept that the article was dated and had inaccurate information. Unfortunately, I may be fighting an uphill battle. I'll give background for those who seemed interested in our progress, but it's pretty long, so feel free to delete this and move on to your regularly scheduled messages (though I'm secretly hoping that someone will have helpful information or suggestions). I wrote an application, using PHP5, that displays a list and refreshes every 30 seconds (the data is constantly changing, but a 30 second delay is acceptable). As I've indicated previously, we're a Microsoft shop, so the data comes from MS SQL Server 2000. No problems, the app worked great using my workstation as the server with a few clients running the app from it. It even worked when we moved it to a server and opened it up to everyone on our intranet (for a while). We have two different types of clients. Some use desktop computers, physically connected to our network, while others use mobile laptops connected to our network via cellular (using Sprint AirCards) using third-party VPN software (Padcom, in case anyone's familiar). We set the application up on a Windows 2000 Server with IIS (5, I think), and it would work fine for about a day. Then Padcom clients kept stopping. They'd request the page and, after a loong time, display a message that the request timed out. This would seemingly happen for all Padcom-connected clients at the same time, though the desktops continued to work fine. We restarted the server running the Padcom software with no effect. We restarted IIS on the web server with no effect. The only thing (seemingly) that cleared the issue was rebooting the server running IIS. I spent a day and a half looking at the issue with the network and server administrators, but nobody could find where the problem was. So, we moved it to a Windows 2003 Server with IIS 6; same problem. On my own, I set up a linux server with apache and placed the application there. They changed the DNS record to point to the linux server, and it has run flawlessly ever since (53 days, 22 hours, 11 minutes). Nobody has mentioned changing anything, until this morning. My manager informed me in our meeting that no language could be chosen unless it works under IIS. So, I'm faced with finding an obscur problem, running on obscur software (the vendor for Padcom, of course, insists that they've never seen this problem). I'm confident that the problem has *nothing* to do with PHP, but am forced by management to try to prove it. That's it in a nutshell. Thanks again to everybody for your help and support. Rick -- Rick Emery Rick, Deepest sympathy. So you have a solution which works, for everyone, but doctrine dictates differently. I'd suspect VPN / IIS interaction. If I was your manager, I'd take comfort from the FACT that you were able to switch everything over to Linux and it ran w/o difficulty. Cripes, if you had this problem with ColdFusion you'd be sitting there, a lonely soul, amongst the finger-pointers, and nothing would be running. Best regards - Miles -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
snip Have you tried PHP 4.x? Give that a shot and see what effects that has on the application. /snip We have used PHP with IIS and SQL Server like you said, I can say from experience that PHP 5 had the same problems as the initial poster described. The pages would time out and hang randomly. I put a 4.x version of PHP on the machine and it's been working ever since. Also if you plan on using PHP with SQL Server and Linux we have been using 5 with no problems for over a year now. It gets pretty heavy use daily. The only gripe I have is FreeTDS only allows one connection at a time, I'd love to use a JDBC driver with PHP. We're looking at using PHP and Hibernate which would let us use JDBC.. Best of luck. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
We set the application up on a Windows 2000 Server with IIS (5, I think), and it would work fine for about a day. Then Padcom clients kept stopping. They'd request the page and, after a loong time, display a message that the request timed out. Can they access other (non-php) pages on that server during one of these failures? Can they PING the server? I would bet a days pay ($5.25 - just got a raise!) that they can't. And if I'm right, this eliminates PHP as the cause and starts to smell more of a firewall/routing/DNS/VPN type problem. Have your network people had a look at a packet capture from the network during one of the failures? If they did, they would see what was happening. The fact that you say it is ONLY the padcom clients is enlightening because it means this is not a server failure, but a failure somewhere in between or at the client itself. In any case, I don't think your boss's requirement that whatever language is chosen must run on IIS (ack!) is violated, because PHP runs quite nicely on thousands (I'm sure) of IIS servers. JM Windows: 32-bit extensions and a graphic shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit OS originally coded for a 4-bit CPU, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand 1-bit of competition. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Quoting Rick Emery [EMAIL PROTECTED]: My employer has (finally) decided to take full advantage of our intranet, and wants to move from client-server applications to web-based applications. [snipped] Any input would be greatly appreciated. Opinions are welcome (especially from programmers with experience in both), but I have to sell it to management (I'm already on the PHP side), so links to data or articles comparing the two are best. Ugh, we're *never* going to make a decision. My boss just sent me this email: I read the following article and I wanted your feedback on it. http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2002/papers/html/php/#section_6. I have read enough articles to know that the author can slant things one way or another depending on their personal preferences. I am off to my Dr?s appointment but I would like to discuss this with you when we both get a chance. The last two sections are the primary concern. I do know the article was written 3 years ago and that may have impact as well. Anybody care to provide words of wisdom to me before I meet with her? I hate doing this, as I'm sure everybody has better things to do, but I *really* want to sell PHP. Thanks in advance, Rick -- Rick Emery When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return -- Leonardo Da Vinci -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
[snip] Anybody care to provide words of wisdom to me before I meet with her? I hate doing this, as I'm sure everybody has better things to do, but I *really* want to sell PHP. [/snip] 6. When to Use PHP [snip] How much control will you have over the deployment platform? PHP's one-size-fits-all approach to the php.ini file makes it hard to share servers with sites that were developed with different settings. [/snip] This is no longer (or was never) the case as multiple php.ini's can be configured. Not only that multiple versions of PHP can be run on the same machine. [snip] How many people will work on the site, now and in the future? PHP as a language lacks the features necessary to promote effective teamwork; the bigger your team, the greater the problems you'll have. [/snip] Any effective CVS will let you manage this well, no matter the language. [snip] How big will the site be, in terms of numbers of distinct pages? This is related to the previous item: the bigger the site, the greater your need will be for language features that promote teamwork. [/snip] Bzzzt. Thanks for playing (Same as above) [snip] How long will the site be expected to last? The longer it lasts, the more likely it is that significant design changes will be needed. If you use PHP in the obvious manner, major design changes are difficult. If you extend PHP with a templating system, whether ad hoc or carefully enforced, using PHP buys you little if anything. [/snip] Now it becomes obvious that the author had never used or attempted to use PHP in a collaborative enterprise environment. The above statement I would consider false. [snip] How experienced are the developers; and how complex will the site need to be? Experienced developers will find themselves hindered rather than helped by the language's simplicity. Inexperienced developers will find the simplicity a significant boon - but if you have inexperienced developers trying to develop a complicated dynamic site, you will soon run into other problems. [/snip] Again, I find this comment to be unfounded. Experienced developers are able to do great things with PHP because of the wealth of functions and the flexibility allowed. Inexperienced developers can generally be brought along very quickly so that the cost/benefit analysis leans towards the plus side very quickly. 7. Conclusions PHP is a convenient language for rapidly prototyping simple dynamic websites. Websites thus built can in many cases be deployed indefinitely, without spending time and money on refactoring code in a different language. PHP's simplicity makes it a good language for inexperienced programmers, such as those moving from a pure page-design rôle to a site development one. [snip] For more experienced developers, though, the language's simplicity rapidly turns into complexity, slowing down the development process. These developers are the ones who have the skills needed to build large and/or complex websites; using PHP for such sites therefore tends to be a net loss. This tendency is reinforced by PHP's lack of the linguistic features needed to promote working on large software projects. If your project is at all large or complex, it may be better to look elsewhere when choosing an implementation language. [/snip] Again, this is just not true and demonstrates the author's lack of working knowledge of the language and the deployment of the language at the time the article was written, much less today. We manage several millions of records each day with PHP in an enterprise situation and have no issue with complexity. [snip] In cases where PHP has been determined to be inappropriate, what language should be used? There is considerable choice here; few languages are as bad as PHP for doing serious development work. The author and his colleagues have had good results with Perl, and believe that languages such as C++, Java, and Python should serve equally well. [/snip] Again, the author demonstrates a completye lack of knowledge. PERL can be extremely complex, has a high learning curve, and lacks a certain finesse. All of the languages mentioned find their roots in C, including PHP. So the argument he makes here is a straw man arguement at best. Seriously, several corporations world-wide are using PHP at an enterprise level (a much bally-hooed but particularly worthless term) each and every day. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 14:16, Rick Emery wrote: http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2002/papers/html/php/#section_6 Wow, that sure is a crock of FUD bullshit. I'll answer in order of appearance, I don't want to quote in case of copyright issues. 1. Most interesting settings in php.ini can be set via an apache virtual directory configuration or .htaccess override. So the point raised is moot. The settings you'll care about for multiple servers are usually register_globals and magic_quotes. These are both controllable via this technique. 2. No language effectively promotes teamwork. This is why concurrent versioning systems like CVS exist. Now, some development environments promote teamwork, but again, they usually just employ their own versioning system... and many just provide hooks to a CVS repository itself. 3. Actually number of distinct pages suggest better teamwork since developers and content authors can work on different pages simultaneously. The code in the background if properly separated from the content will not affect development of content at all (except where bugs might occur :) 4. Using PHP buys you plenty. There is no language that enforces a programmer to adhere to specific principles of business logic and content separation when they are stupid, ignorant, or don't care. I personally recommend extending PHP with a templating language, but others will definitely argue otherwise... that's a question of personal taste. Either way, PHP buys you a massive developer base, the potential for an inexperience coder to quickly become competent, and lots and lots of free already written software you can use if you want. Again though, look what using VB in the past bought managers? The big headache of VB.net which wasn't compatible. So sounds like you may get screwed regardless. There's absolutely nothing that guarantees your future... it doesn't exist yet. 5. There are thousands and thousands of experienced developers out there using PHP. The sign of experience is not what language you use, but what you can do with a language. Personally I find PHP simple yet extremely powerful. I can't say I've ever felt hindered-- but then maybe I'm still inexperienced *grin*. Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 14:51, Alan Fullmer wrote: So pardon me butting in on this conversation.. I was completely unaware that you were able to do separate php.ini files. I did know you could do things through htaccess, etc. Is there a way to do this separately in http.conf? with virtual domains? Probably, but I think you meant to respond to Jay Blanchard's post since he's the one who said you can have multiple php.ini files :) I imagine it might be possible in the httpd.conf but don't know since I've never looked. Definitely you could run two webservers and use the proxy-pass thingy like is done when running PHP4 and PHP5 on the same site. Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 14:16, Rick Emery wrote: I read the following article and I wanted your feedback on it. http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2002/papers/html/php/#section_6. I Just another small comment on this... It's interesting to note that the author headlines the specific section as When To Use PHP and then goes on to itemize why he thinks you shouldn't use PHP. This is classic FUD based style since naturally readers jump to sections to see the pros and cons of something. This guy set it up so that he covers the cons, but when you jump to see the pros, he just summarizes his idea of the cons again so readers think it's a lose/lose situation. Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
I've been coding in PHP since version 3 and I actually sold a telecommunications company to use it for their HUGE intranet back in 2000 (right before they went out of business in North America). They wanted to use Java and I talked them out of it for the simple fact that PHP was so easy to use and ease to develop. The learning curve for PHP vs. Java IMO was 10 times faster especially if you had people coming on board that didn't really know OOP that well. PHP was the perfect environment for people who do not have a lot of experience to learn a language really fast. Even working in it now for 5 years becoming I guess you could say an expert in PHP I find that really experienced people in PHP can fly through code and create huge applications in no time. Even those who have been programming in another language pick up PHP in just a matter of days and begin to fly around it creating things very quickly. Out of all my developer friends those who know PHP love it because it is so easy. I have never once heard of an application becoming too complex because of it's ease. That to me is just silly ignorant talk. The guy who wrote that article about PHP obviously don't know what he is doing and I would argue he was hired by Microsoft to write something against it because as John Pina Craven said, innovation is the enemy of the status quo - it puts people out of business. :) You'll have to let us know what the final decision is. jay On Aug 22, 2005, at 1:16 PM, Rick Emery wrote: Quoting Rick Emery [EMAIL PROTECTED]: My employer has (finally) decided to take full advantage of our intranet, and wants to move from client-server applications to web-based applications. [snipped] Any input would be greatly appreciated. Opinions are welcome (especially from programmers with experience in both), but I have to sell it to management (I'm already on the PHP side), so links to data or articles comparing the two are best. Ugh, we're *never* going to make a decision. My boss just sent me this email: I read the following article and I wanted your feedback on it. http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2002/papers/html/php/#section_6. I have read enough articles to know that the author can slant things one way or another depending on their personal preferences. I am off to my Dr?s appointment but I would like to discuss this with you when we both get a chance. The last two sections are the primary concern. I do know the article was written 3 years ago and that may have impact as well. Anybody care to provide words of wisdom to me before I meet with her? I hate doing this, as I'm sure everybody has better things to do, but I *really* want to sell PHP. Thanks in advance, Rick -- Rick Emery When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return -- Leonardo Da Vinci -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Matthew Weier O'Phinney wrote: You've insinuated several times that PHP is not 'scalable to an enterprise level'. Could you perhaps explain what you mean by this? Anyone who is trying to argue that ColdFusion is easier to scale than PHP (both can be made to) hasn't had to handle significant traffic. I have experience trying to scale ColdFusion (this was a job years ago for the USPS), and it's not easy once you pass a certain threshhold. I don't think it was a lack of expertise either - I had some of the top consultants from Allaire trying to solve the problem, including the author of ClusterCATS. Application servers are nice, but I prefer the minimalistic shared nothing approach that PHP takes. Chris -- Chris Shiflett Brain Bulb, The PHP Consultancy http://brainbulb.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 19:01, Mark Charette wrote: It is always funny to read that one needs OO approches to do anything useful. What one needs is a modular approach, re-factoring, and knowing I never said that you NEED OO approach to do anything. I found some problems where an OO approach helped me better than a linear approach, and the inverse is also true. My point was that a language that gives you the choice of programming style is interesting. Both CF and PHP give you the choice to use OOP or not. Today, everyone agrees that procedural languages are an evolution from BASIC-style linear programming. Also, one can agree that OOP is an evolution from procedural programming. Now, one can choose to stick with linear programming, procedural programming or OOP. This is a matter of personal taste, trade-offs that have a different meaning from one individual to another. You can achieve modularity with procedural coding. But, you need to do it yourself, while modularity is at the heart of OOP. You may prefer linear or procedural coding over OOP, but surely not for modularity. Stéphane -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Andrew Scott wrote: I agree with you, but why does the installer package not come with everything to get you going to begin with, that was my original question to begin with a long time ago not on this list of course. I can't speak for whoever made the decision to keep what's included with the installer to the most commonly used modules but I think it's safe to assume the reason was to avoid unnecessary bloat. Why include something you probably won't need? KiSS and life will be easier. Anyways, I'm done with this now. You clearly have no specific technical reason for believing CF is better than PHP beyond the installation process which I'm sure we can both agree is not enough to sway the decision either way. I for one think it's a very good thing that it's a fairly manual process, but each to his own. -Stut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
When you reply please include the list in the recipients! Andrew Scott wrote: Well at least I know that there are a few developers in here that are not very savvy when it comes to Enterprise Solutions with J2EE then. That's a fair point, but rather than pointing it out it would be helpful if you elaborated on your points rather than taking the if you don't know then I'm not going to tell you approach. Multiple instances, what do you think this means or I guess you don't have the concept of instantiation? Again, meaning what? Running several copies of the application on a single server? Why would I want to do that? I am aware of the installation package for php for windows, but why is it not part of the main package to begin with, why a separate package. I asked this once before and was told because of security issues, can only go by what I have been told. I did say correct me if I am wrong! Ok, let's start with the main package. For PHP the main package is the source code. You're clearly not very familiar with the way software is distributed in the OSS world. In addition to the source code the PHP site generously distributes two other packages for the Win32 platform - a zip file and an installation package. Personally when I'm forced to use Win32 as a server platform I always use the zip package because I'm very picky about what gets installed where. As for the security issues I'm not familiar with any security issues that arise from using the installation package. If there were any I'm sure they would have been published and almost certainly fixed by now. As far as Shared hosting, I can only say that you have led a sheltered life in your development cycle and don't know that applications that run in a shared environment such as one server running 13 websites can be a security risk. I think that if you understood what J2EE is all about first, then I wouldn't be having to explain myself on what J2EE is in depth. Hmm, maybe I have led a sheltered life. I mean I've only been involved with hosting companies for the past 15 years and have been running my own hosting company for nearly 9 years, what would I know?!! I won't disagree that shared hosting environments have a lot of implications for security. I won't disagree that I don't know very much about J2EE. What I would question is your assertion that J2EE provides any extra security in a shared hosting environment than you can get with any other system if the server is properly set up and your application takes reasonable precautions. Having your application on a shared server is never going to be as secure as having your own dedicated server just as much as having a dedicated server in a third parties facility will never be as secure as hosting it in your own facility. Again if J2EE does provide extra security that cannot be achieved with PHP please let me know. I urge you not to come back with another J2EE is better but rather to explain why with specific features that make it better. -Stut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Hey it's not my fault that this stupid list needs a reply all! I am going to guess Stut, that you don't know even know what the difference between a singleton instantiated object is to a standard instantiated object? You know for a php developer your really don't know your own product to well, and by your statement of no known security issues with an installer package (one file to execute to setup everything you need and in the right locations) not 3 packages one with the binaries one with the libraries and the third with partial of the other 2. And if you bothered to read the text in your chosen language you would know about the security issues. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
[snip] Hey it's not my fault that this stupid list needs a reply all! [/snip] That's enough. This has begun to degrade into a pissing contest. Personal attacks don't fly here. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Andrew Scott wrote: Hey it's not my fault that this stupid list needs a reply all! snip Learn how to use your mail client instead of expecting someone to bastardize the email headers. Andrew, meet /dev/null; /dev/null this is Andrew. -- John C. Nichel ÜberGeek KegWorks.com 716.856.9675 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
John you're funny. No serious, these php lists don't work like the normal mailing lists where it send to an email address that is then broadcast to subscribers. But I guess you get what you pay for:-) -Original Message- From: John Nichel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 2 July 2005 12:15 AM To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion Andrew Scott wrote: Hey it's not my fault that this stupid list needs a reply all! snip Learn how to use your mail client instead of expecting someone to bastardize the email headers. Andrew, meet /dev/null; /dev/null this is Andrew. -- John C. Nichel ÜberGeek KegWorks.com 716.856.9675 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
You need to define 'normal mailing list'. I'm on about 20 different lists and only one of them has a default of 'reply to all'. George -Original Message- From: Andrew Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 1 July 2005 3:22 pm To: 'John Nichel'; php-general@lists.php.net Subject: RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion John you're funny. No serious, these php lists don't work like the normal mailing lists where it send to an email address that is then broadcast to subscribers. But I guess you get what you pay for:-) -Original Message- From: John Nichel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 2 July 2005 12:15 AM To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion Andrew Scott wrote: Hey it's not my fault that this stupid list needs a reply all! snip Learn how to use your mail client instead of expecting someone to bastardize the email headers. Andrew, meet /dev/null; /dev/null this is Andrew. -- John C. Nichel ÜberGeek KegWorks.com 716.856.9675 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Well I am on about 20-30 as well, and when I press reply it goes to a mailinglist address for broadcasting not the posters email address. -Original Message- From: George Pitcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 2 July 2005 12:26 AM To: Andrew Scott; 'John Nichel'; php-general@lists.php.net Subject: RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion You need to define 'normal mailing list'. I'm on about 20 different lists and only one of them has a default of 'reply to all'. George -Original Message- From: Andrew Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 1 July 2005 3:22 pm To: 'John Nichel'; php-general@lists.php.net Subject: RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion John you're funny. No serious, these php lists don't work like the normal mailing lists where it send to an email address that is then broadcast to subscribers. But I guess you get what you pay for:-) -Original Message- From: John Nichel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 2 July 2005 12:15 AM To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion Andrew Scott wrote: Hey it's not my fault that this stupid list needs a reply all! snip Learn how to use your mail client instead of expecting someone to bastardize the email headers. Andrew, meet /dev/null; /dev/null this is Andrew. -- John C. Nichel ÜberGeek KegWorks.com 716.856.9675 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
George Pitcher wrote: You need to define 'normal mailing list'. I'm on about 20 different lists and only one of them has a default of 'reply to all'. 'Normal', as in 'point and click users' mailing lists. You know the lists where they have to _hack_ the headers to add a Reply-To because the users of said list don't know how to use their mail clients. That kind of 'normal'. -- John C. Nichel ÜberGeek KegWorks.com 716.856.9675 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
On 7/1/05, Andrew Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey it's not my fault that this stupid list needs a reply all! My reply-to-all button is right next to my reply button. Sounds like the pebkac to me. -- Greg Donald Zend Certified Engineer MySQL Core Certification http://destiney.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
On 7/1/05, Andrew Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But I guess you get what you pay for:-) Feel free to go away if the deal isn't working for you. -- Greg Donald Zend Certified Engineer MySQL Core Certification http://destiney.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Greg Donald wrote: snip Sounds like the pebkac to me. What is my marketing manager doing over there? ;) -- John C. Nichel ÜberGeek KegWorks.com 716.856.9675 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re[2]: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Hello Andrew, Friday, July 1, 2005, 3:32:14 PM, you wrote: AS Well I am on about 20-30 as well, and when I press reply it goes to a AS mailinglist address for broadcasting not the posters email address. Most likely because they've bastardised the mail headers to force in a reply-to address that wasn't ever there. Thankfully most people on this list understand that when an email arrives from an address, reply will reply to it. Having said that, it does catch a lot of noobs out. Best regards, Richard Davey -- http://www.launchcode.co.uk - PHP Development Services I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. - Isaac Asimov -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Andrew Scott wrote: Hey it's not my fault that this stupid list needs a reply all! While I agree with Jay that this is degrading into a meaningless slanging match (of which I hope I have not caused) but I feel that I must respond to your comments despite your personal attacks. I am going to guess Stut, that you don't know even know what the difference between a singleton instantiated object is to a standard instantiated object? I don't see the relevance of singletons when it comes to this discussion. The architecture that PHP utilises means it can handle as many concurrent requests as the web server will allow it to. If I understand the J2EE model correctly, and I've said before that my knowledge of it is sketchy at best, you create a number of instances of the application and the application server handles distributing requests between them. This is the same model as PHP except that there is an extra layer between the web server and the application itself in J2EE - namely the application server. If I have this completely wrong please say so, but for $DEITYs sake don't simply say I have it wrong again without explaining why. You seem to be intent on skirting around telling us precisely what makes J2EE a better solution in your opinion. I would be more than happy to hear about it and take it on board because it might convince me to investigate whether it might be worth getting to know it better. I'm sure most other people on this list are also open to learning about alternatives. But until you actually back up your statements rather than turning to personal attacks there will be no benefit to anyone. You know for a php developer your really don't know your own product to well, and by your statement of no known security issues with an installer package (one file to execute to setup everything you need and in the right locations) not 3 packages one with the binaries one with the libraries and the third with partial of the other 2. And if you bothered to read the text in your chosen language you would know about the security issues. Ok that was an extraordinarily spectacular sentence that means very little. The text?? What text? I see no reference to security issues directly related to the Win32 installer on the PHP website. If I'm suffering from temporary blindness I would appreciate a URL or other reference so I can see more clearly. -Stut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re[2]: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Hello Andrew, Friday, July 1, 2005, 3:06:49 PM, you wrote: AS You know for a php developer your really don't know your own product to AS well (blah blah blah) Isn't it time to run off and write another check to Adobe or something? Rather than personally attacking other list members. Best regards, Richard Davey -- http://www.launchcode.co.uk - PHP Development Services I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. - Isaac Asimov -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Stut, FYI here is a copy of the text after installing php. Windows Installer The Windows PHP installer is available from the downloads page at http://www.php.net/downloads.php. This installs the CGI version of PHP and for IIS, PWS, and Xitami, it configures the web server as well. The installer does not include any extra external PHP extensions (php_*.dll) as you'll only find those in the Windows Zip Package and PECL downloads. Note: While the Windows installer is an easy way to make PHP work, it is restricted in many aspects as, for example, the automatic setup of extensions is not supported. Use of the installer isn't the preferred method for installing PHP. First, install your selected HTTP (web) server on your system, and make sure that it works. Run the executable installer and follow the instructions provided by the installation wizard. Two types of installation are supported - standard, which provides sensible defaults for all the settings it can, and advanced, which asks questions as it goes along. The installation wizard gathers enough information to set up the php.ini file, and configure certain web servers to use PHP. One of the web servers the PHP installer does not configure for is Apache, so you'll need to configure it manually. Once the installation has completed, the installer will inform you if you need to restart your system, restart the server, or just start using PHP. Warning Be aware, that this setup of PHP is not secure. If you would like to have a secure PHP setup, you'd better go on the manual way, and set every option carefully. This automatically working setup gives you an instantly working PHP installation, but it is not meant to be used on online servers. -Original Message- From: Stut [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 2 July 2005 12:50 AM To: Andrew Scott Cc: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion Andrew Scott wrote: Hey it's not my fault that this stupid list needs a reply all! While I agree with Jay that this is degrading into a meaningless slanging match (of which I hope I have not caused) but I feel that I must respond to your comments despite your personal attacks. I am going to guess Stut, that you don't know even know what the difference between a singleton instantiated object is to a standard instantiated object? I don't see the relevance of singletons when it comes to this discussion. The architecture that PHP utilises means it can handle as many concurrent requests as the web server will allow it to. If I understand the J2EE model correctly, and I've said before that my knowledge of it is sketchy at best, you create a number of instances of the application and the application server handles distributing requests between them. This is the same model as PHP except that there is an extra layer between the web server and the application itself in J2EE - namely the application server. If I have this completely wrong please say so, but for $DEITYs sake don't simply say I have it wrong again without explaining why. You seem to be intent on skirting around telling us precisely what makes J2EE a better solution in your opinion. I would be more than happy to hear about it and take it on board because it might convince me to investigate whether it might be worth getting to know it better. I'm sure most other people on this list are also open to learning about alternatives. But until you actually back up your statements rather than turning to personal attacks there will be no benefit to anyone. You know for a php developer your really don't know your own product to well, and by your statement of no known security issues with an installer package (one file to execute to setup everything you need and in the right locations) not 3 packages one with the binaries one with the libraries and the third with partial of the other 2. And if you bothered to read the text in your chosen language you would know about the security issues. Ok that was an extraordinarily spectacular sentence that means very little. The text?? What text? I see no reference to security issues directly related to the Win32 installer on the PHP website. If I'm suffering from temporary blindness I would appreciate a URL or other reference so I can see more clearly. -Stut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: Re[2]: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Actually that's not true, reply to: is not a hack and is very much a standard to include in the headers, its part of the rfc standard, after having written a mail server as a project its not hard to create a mailinglist option that sets this info up properly. If you setup your mail client with the reply to field different to your email address, your email client will add this line or did you not know that? -Original Message- From: Richard Davey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 2 July 2005 12:49 AM To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re[2]: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion Hello Andrew, Friday, July 1, 2005, 3:32:14 PM, you wrote: AS Well I am on about 20-30 as well, and when I press reply it goes to a AS mailinglist address for broadcasting not the posters email address. Most likely because they've bastardised the mail headers to force in a reply-to address that wasn't ever there. Thankfully most people on this list understand that when an email arrives from an address, reply will reply to it. Having said that, it does catch a lot of noobs out. Best regards, Richard Davey -- http://www.launchcode.co.uk - PHP Development Services I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. - Isaac Asimov -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: Re[2]: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Hello, I followed the discussions closely. I wanted to reply to some questions I saw in the discussions. I am using both PHP and Coldfusion, but both on Linux platforms. So, I am not bound to Microsoft technologies, and CF runs faster on Linux/Unix than on Windows. Like PHP, there is no need for a dedicated IDE to code/script on CF. You may use Macromedia software to build web pages only if you want, except if you want to make Flash movies/animations. You can edit files manually to configure CF (XML files) with a ssh access on the server (at least the Linux version I am used to), or use a web interface to manage it. Both languages have pros and cons, and I cannot say that one is superior to the other. It is a matter of taste. I know that someone coming from a programming background will be more comfortable with PHP, while someone coming from a web design background may be more comfortable with CF, but even that is changing. Once you get to do very advanced things, you need to code using Object Oriented approaches, modular programming, web services, etc. which both products allow you to do. It is true that Coldfusion offers a lot of functionality 'out of the box', and sometimes you need to look around to find equivalent functionality, extensions for PHP. These functionalities are more geared towards displaying data, managing forms, etc. PHP also offers a lot of functionalities out of the box also. For example, PHP is really flexible about how you want to retrieve a query, in what format, etc. The functionalities are more geared towards programming utilities. You can extend Coldfusion functionalities easily by creating 'custom tags' in Perl, C, C++ or Java without having to recompile the product. You can also instantiate any classes in Java because Coldfusion is based on Java since version 5. So, it's really a matter of personal taste and the background of each one. I personally take pleasure developing applications on both Coldfusion and PHP. Stéphane On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 09:50, Richard Davey wrote: Hello Andrew, Friday, July 1, 2005, 3:06:49 PM, you wrote: AS You know for a php developer your really don't know your own product to AS well (blah blah blah) Isn't it time to run off and write another check to Adobe or something? Rather than personally attacking other list members. Best regards, Richard Davey -- http://www.launchcode.co.uk - PHP Development Services I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. - Isaac Asimov -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
On 01/07/05, Andrew Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stut, FYI here is a copy of the text after installing php. snip Warning Be aware, that this setup of PHP is not secure. If you would like to have a secure PHP setup, you'd better go on the manual way, and set every option carefully. This automatically working setup gives you an instantly working PHP installation, but it is not meant to be used on online servers. Ok, now I see the root of your comment. Maybe it's just me but I never assume that any automatic installation will create a secure environment. The reason for that is that the installer cannot possibly know what it needs to do to make the system secure - that's what sysadmins are for. I must also point out that a system that used this installer to set up PHP can be secured in exactly the same way as any other in much the same way as anyone doing it manually can create a setup that is less secure than using the installer to do it for them. So, I was technically wrong but IMHO the point is flawed since nothing should be assumed to be secure out of the box. With that convenient diversion hopefully settled you are still yet to convince me that CF offers any significant advantage over PHP. -Stut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Stéphane Bruno wrote: Once you get to do very advanced things, you need to code using Object Oriented approaches, modular programming, web services, etc. which both products allow you to do. I guess those non-linear crash codes I wrote in Fortran not so many years ago aren't very advanced ... :) It is always funny to read that one needs OO approches to do anything useful. What one needs is a modular approach, re-factoring, and knowing how and why to make tradeoffs when writing code. In any programming language. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
On Wed, June 29, 2005 9:24 am, Andrew Scott said: At the end of the day you, the guy around the corner and even me will use what we need to use to get the job done. Don't get me wrong I like php, it has a good support for free stuff, but it's a pain in the butt to configure it into a full blown application without modifications, which some languages have built in. Oddly enough, I prefer PHP because it *HAS* all the features ColdFusion only has if you pay through the nose to Allaire (or whomever owns it this week) or pay through the nose for custom tags to 20 different guys who each have one of the features you need or... In fact, does CF have *any* feature, at any price, that PHP doesn't? I think not. I also *HATE* the muddled-up mess of CF tags, though that is obviously a more subjective opinion. If you like CF and want to use it, more power to you. But you really are wasting your time telling us it's got more features than PHP, which is patently false. -- Like Music? http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Actually Richard that is not what I am trying to do. This guy actually is after some feedback and that's what I am trying to give him. Pros for PHP: - It is free, and takes more time to learn that coldfusion (debatable yes). It has a huge support from other developers, and is usually more than free. Cons for PHP: - Coldfusion is also free (Blue Dragon) and has just as much support as PHP, although. PHP can not run in a J2EE environment, limiting it to small scall websites and limiting the prospect of expansion or server migration. I could go on, but as I said at the end of the day it's up to the original poster to put forward the pros and cons to both languages. If I was him I would look at this objectively, because it would bite him in the butt if he made the wrong choice and had to spend more money because the application was not researched for its needs and future expansion path correctly. I would not want to be in a position where I chose one or the other without giving all the information of pros and cons, this allows for the powers to be to make the wrong choice and not the person asking about this in the first place. This is the advice that I am trying to put forward, not whether this language is better than that, but more of an open mind to what each can and can't do. Regards Andrew Scott Analyst Programmer CMS Transport Systems Level 2/33 Bank Street South Melbourne, Victoria, 3205 Phone: 03 9699 7988 - Fax: 03 9699 7976 -Original Message- From: Richard Lynch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 30 June 2005 5:54 PM To: Andrew Scott Cc: 'Rick Emery'; php-general@lists.php.net Subject: RE: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion If you like CF and want to use it, more power to you. But you really are wasting your time telling us it's got more features than PHP, which is patently false. -- Like Music? http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re[2]: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Hello Andrew, Thursday, June 30, 2005, 9:15:22 AM, you wrote: AS Coldfusion is also free (Blue Dragon) and has just as much support AS as PHP, although. PHP can not run in a J2EE environment, limiting AS it to small scall websites and limiting the prospect of expansion AS or server migration. You like to tout CF as being J2EE/Enterprise ready. For this the free version of Blue Dragon is NOT suitable, by the developers own admission. You need the $6000 Enterprise version of CF (and you can add on a few more thousand $ for extended support). This is before you've bought any of the extra components you need to finish your application. 1) Blue Dragon is also not just a free version of CF it would appear, even on the developers web site they describe the free version as Functionality is robust and useful for most basic CFML applications. - it's the words most basic that concern me here. 2) It doesn't support the newer CF 7 features. 3) The free version does not deploy into J2EE at all. 4) It only runs on Windows, OS X or Linux (sorry, but lots of very big hosting companies prefer the stability of FreeBSD, Solaris, etc). If you want Solaris support it costs $2499 per CPU. If you want FreeBSD support, you're stuffed. 5) It only supports ODBC database connections (via JDBC), so unlike PHP you won't be connecting to Oracle, MS SQL, SQLite, etc. MySQL is supported, but not built-in. If you want to do CF seriously, you need to invest thousands and that's before you've paid your programmers - this is the bottom line. Perhaps that is why even the Blue Dragon developers themselves claim its biggest advantage is: You've invested heavily in CFML.. so have we. Protect your investments. - and how do you protect them? by deploying Blue Dragon so you can then interface directly with .NET applications rather than migrate totally to them. This doesn't strike me as being the approach of a growing, competitive well supported language. It sounds more like shit, people have woken up to the massive cost of using CF, how can we slow the drop-out rate? if that is Blue Dragons primary selling angle, it says a *lot* about the state of serious CF development. When it comes to investing it think long-term. Zend are aggressively attacking the enterprise market and we will see more and more movement in this direction, to the point where I am quite sure their objective is to make PHP itself enterprise capable *regardless* of J2EE. With the rate things change around here, we won't have to wait too long. If you don't actually need to build an enterprise scale site (and let's face it, that covers most of us) then you're good to go with PHP *right now* without actually spending a dime. Take that $6000 CF budget, invest it into training for your entire team and build your own framework, with the knowledge that no matter what happens, your work is safe. Anyway, time to get back to my project for BMW - just one of those small scall websites (sic) things I guess? Best regards, Richard Davey -- http://www.launchcode.co.uk - PHP Development Services I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. - Isaac Asimov -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: Re[2]: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Richard, And your point of before you pay your programmer is what one of my other points was. CF is very rapid development, and you might say the same about PHP. The point is that these are all the things you need to take into consideration, the cost that it would take to develop and maintain in either language, as well as cost involved in the need of the application having to be a true enterprise solution. I am not here to bag php, I am here to make some points about the cost of the application in the overall scenario. Would you develop in a language that you know could not deliver an enterprise solution if in 6 months that's what you really need, and how would you look if you recommended a language because it was free, but in time had to spend more again to make it fully scalable to an enterprise level if it needed it. My point is that both languages have their merits, both have their advantages and disadvantages, but what about the cost is it really worth not researching something properly before jumping into bed with what you think might work? I know what I would do if someone who worked for me, came to me an recommended a language and had not done the research into all possible paths, that person would be very answerable to why we had to spend more down the track. Now that you have bagged CF, lets look at PHP. The amount of work that is needed to implement a reporting solution is hard work and takes a lot of code, the amount of work needed to generate a PDF or even a flash paper is hard work in php, or what about RIA development (Rich Internet Application's) that con leverage of flash to make presentation look good with minimal work. This functionality can and does save more work than you could ever possibly achieve in php, RAD development because it creates less work to achieve something that would take a lot of work and time in php. Don't get me started on the integration of crystal reports and php, I have had to do it and it was not easy compared to the same job in coldfusion. A good developer will know when to use the right tools for the job. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: Re[2]: [PHP] PHP vs. ColdFusion
Hi Concerning php and J2EE, zend platform is providing a solid bridge between both environment. This as been specially build for developping big system (banking, tracking, etc). regards david Le Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:06:22 +0200, Richard Davey [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit: Hello Andrew, Thursday, June 30, 2005, 9:15:22 AM, you wrote: AS Coldfusion is also free (Blue Dragon) and has just as much support AS as PHP, although. PHP can not run in a J2EE environment, limiting AS it to small scall websites and limiting the prospect of expansion AS or server migration. You like to tout CF as being J2EE/Enterprise ready. For this the free version of Blue Dragon is NOT suitable, by the developers own admission. You need the $6000 Enterprise version of CF (and you can add on a few more thousand $ for extended support). This is before you've bought any of the extra components you need to finish your application. 1) Blue Dragon is also not just a free version of CF it would appear, even on the developers web site they describe the free version as Functionality is robust and useful for most basic CFML applications. - it's the words most basic that concern me here. 2) It doesn't support the newer CF 7 features. 3) The free version does not deploy into J2EE at all. 4) It only runs on Windows, OS X or Linux (sorry, but lots of very big hosting companies prefer the stability of FreeBSD, Solaris, etc). If you want Solaris support it costs $2499 per CPU. If you want FreeBSD support, you're stuffed. 5) It only supports ODBC database connections (via JDBC), so unlike PHP you won't be connecting to Oracle, MS SQL, SQLite, etc. MySQL is supported, but not built-in. If you want to do CF seriously, you need to invest thousands and that's before you've paid your programmers - this is the bottom line. Perhaps that is why even the Blue Dragon developers themselves claim its biggest advantage is: You've invested heavily in CFML.. so have we. Protect your investments. - and how do you protect them? by deploying Blue Dragon so you can then interface directly with .NET applications rather than migrate totally to them. This doesn't strike me as being the approach of a growing, competitive well supported language. It sounds more like shit, people have woken up to the massive cost of using CF, how can we slow the drop-out rate? if that is Blue Dragons primary selling angle, it says a *lot* about the state of serious CF development. When it comes to investing it think long-term. Zend are aggressively attacking the enterprise market and we will see more and more movement in this direction, to the point where I am quite sure their objective is to make PHP itself enterprise capable *regardless* of J2EE. With the rate things change around here, we won't have to wait too long. If you don't actually need to build an enterprise scale site (and let's face it, that covers most of us) then you're good to go with PHP *right now* without actually spending a dime. Take that $6000 CF budget, invest it into training for your entire team and build your own framework, with the knowledge that no matter what happens, your work is safe. Anyway, time to get back to my project for BMW - just one of those small scall websites (sic) things I guess? Best regards, Richard Davey -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
