Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[David T-G]

Malcolm, et al --

...and then Malcolm said...
% 
...
% 
% Opera 7.23 on windows and reading this as a newsgroup, the reply goes to 
% the group, as I would expect.

Aha!  I think I see the cause of some of the confusion.

Many people might expect a mailing list to behave as a newsgroup, but it
isn't and so it won't.

In a newsgroup, you have two distinct ways of responding to a news post:
you can either make another post or you can send an email.  Most of the
time you will make another post, which means that it goes to the group.
Occasionally you might want to send a note to the individual poster, or
some group of people, or whatever, but that requires an email (since we
don't all have our own private newsgroups dutifully replicated around all
of USENET).

In a mailing list, everything is an email, so you have to think in email
terminology.  A bare-bones, basic reply is going to be a mail reply and
that means that it will go to the poster, while a list reply is what you
need to go back to the list (I avoid the use of group above because
'group reply' is already defined otherwise in email).

I hope that this sheds some light on the matter, both for folks
requesting the munging as well as for those of us (I included) who just
can't fathom why anyone would possibly want to break things in that way.
I think I'll drop a note to Chip Rosenthal, too, in the hopes that the
concept might be fleshed out a bit in his document.


HTH  HAND

:-D
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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Mika Tuupola]

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, David T-G wrote:

 Many people might expect a mailing list to behave as a newsgroup, 
 but it isn't and so it won't.

Having read this thread, must say I wonder where is this
world is going when people who consider themselves
coders are confused about this email thingie.

;)

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Rasmus Lerdorf]

Just to add an authoritative answer here.  Mucking up the reply-to header
is simply wrong.  I don't really care what arguments you come up with, it
makes no technical sense.  The list has been configured this way for years
and years and believe me, it is the safest and most flexible
configuration.  If you guys can't figure out how to use reply-all and
procmail to filter out duplicates if you don't want to see those, well,
then tough.  This is a technical mailing list.  I refuse to let a small
group of folks without the technical know-how make a mess of the list for
all of us who know how to deal with mailing lists correctly.

-Rasmus

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Nigel Jones wrote:

 Ok lets put it this way...

 There is LESS chance that a reply should be directed to X user than to the
 whole list

 If I want to CC something to the writer then let me but 99%(all together) of
 Mailing List Posts are directed to the actual List.

 Also why do we have to change clients? We have a FREEDOM of CHOICE

 If messing with the Reply-To headers then why does the NZPHPUG do it?
 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

 Maybe we should consider a change or have a list like Digest(or whatever it
 is) where the Reply-To header is 'mugged'

 My 2 cents



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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Jason Wong]

On Wednesday 26 November 2003 04:55, Glenn E. Sieb wrote:
  From: Eugene Lee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better
  mail client that supports mailing lists, your problem would be solved.

 Amusing--I've used Eudora.. I've used Mozilla.. I've used Netscape.. I
 don't see that behaviour in any of those. So, care to tell us which
 M$-Windows mail program supports this?

The Bat!

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Panos Konstantinidis]

 
 What's the problem with the Reply All button?
 

  Which of the following words you just don't
understand: *some mail clients (eg yahoo) do not have
a Reply All button?


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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Jason Wong]

On Wednesday 26 November 2003 04:56, Chris W. Parker wrote:
 Eugene Lee mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:47 PM said:
  If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better mail client
  that supports mailing lists, your problem would be solved.

 The problem with your theory is that some of us are in corporate
 environments where personal email is not allowed and therefore a
 separate client would not work. 

If being able to use this list effectively is part of your job then you need 
to let your company know that you need a decent MUA to do your job properly.

If using this list is a personal thing, then do it in your own time, on your 
own computer with whatever software you choose to install.

 And we especially cannot abandon Outlook
 because afaik there are no other email clients that can talk to Exchange
 as well as Outlook can.

Well, then use Outlook as a client for Exchange, then use a proper MUA for 
email.

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Dave G]

To start out, I'd just like to make an observation. I've noticed
that some people in this thread have said how this argument has come up
many times, and they would even prefer that people look in the archives
to see what the results were of previous discussion. I find the fact
that the topic has come up multiple times in itself indicative of what
natural human expectations are. On the lists I belong to where responses
go only to the list, this topic has never come up before. Some lists I
have been on for years and years, and I swear this is the first time I
have ever encountered this issue, here on this list which uses this
system.

Before I pick out some statements that I'd like to comment
directly on, I wanted to point out a trend I've noticed which is an
assertion that people who do not like the reply-to-the-author approach
as opposed to the reply-to-the-list approach do not understand how to
use it properly. Or they do not know how to properly use the reply to
all button, or other nonsense.
I understand this list, my mail software, and the theory behind
the reply-to munging debate very well. Non comprehension or ability are
not at issue here. Don't assume that non-agreement equals non
understanding.

My opinion is that this is a multi person discussion forum, not a
person to person forum.
I agree very strongly with this statement, and most of the email
that follows it. If someone posts a question, and gets a private email
solving the problem, how does everyone else benefit?
I want other people's answers to be on this list so I can learn,
and I want my answers to go to the list so that other people may build
on it and add more useful commentary.

If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better mail
client...
MS Outlook suffers from code bloat, but that does not mean it
does not successfully do the task that I acquired it for, which is to
receive, send, and filter my email, every day. And it has successfully
handled the many mailing lists I belong to, including this one. Blaming
the email client is just bias against brands.

Just to add an authoritative answer here.  Mucking up the reply-to
header is simply wrong.  I don't really care what arguments you come up
with...
This seems to describe the tone of the debate. The idea of an
authority on a matter that is incapable of considering alternate
viewpoints seems oxymoronic to me.

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[- Edwin -]

Okay, I thought I won't be posting again for this thread
but...

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:30:37 -0800 (PST)
Panos Konstantinidis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  What's the problem with the Reply All button?
  
 
   Which of the following words you just don't
 understand: *some mail clients (eg yahoo) do not have
 a Reply All button?

Which of the following words you just don't understand: The
Reply All button is just BESIDE (on the right side) of the
Reply button!

Do You Yahoo!?

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Jason Wong]

On Wednesday 26 November 2003 15:30, Panos Konstantinidis wrote:
  What's the problem with the Reply All button?

   Which of the following words you just don't
 understand: *some mail clients (eg yahoo) do not have
 a Reply All button?

Not sure if you're using the same Yahoo as I do, but my one has a [Reply All] 
button. But that's besides the point. The point is, if your mail client of 
choice is broken, get a better one.

Breaking the list to cater for broken mail clients is a ludicrous suggestion.

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Dave G]

Edwin,
I read the articles you pointed out. I'm sorry, but I still have
not seen any argument that makes me think that the reply-to-the author
option is better. In another posting I've put forth some of my reasons.

And, what is your opinion regarding Reply All?
Reply all is very useful sometimes. In the case of this mailing
list, however, I see it as redundant. If I hit Reply All, then the
person I'm responding gets it twice. Once directly, and once on the
list, as this mail I'm writing now does. Since you will get this via the
list, why do you also want to get it directly? 
In any case, no one is saying that Reply All should be deleted
as an option. The more options the better - respond to the list, the
list and the author, the author only... all these options should be
readily available. The debate is over what is the default behaviour. I
maintain that the point of a list is to have open discussion, that
people join precisely for the advantage of participating in a group, and
so the postings should default to going to the group, with secondary
options for posting off list.

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Panos Konstantinidis]

 Which of the following words you just don't
 understand: The
 Reply All button is just BESIDE (on the right
 side) of the
 Reply button!

  There is not such a button.

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Panos Konstantinidis]

 
 Breaking the list to cater for broken mail clients
 is a ludicrous suggestion.

  Do you think lame arguments like the following
aren't?

(from http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html)

Some administrators justify Reply-To munging by
saying, All responses should go directly to the list
anyway. This is arrogant. 

  (while sending a personal e-mail and noone else has
a chance to find about a particular problem and a
solution is not arrogant. I wonder what's the point of
mailing lists then?)

You should allow *me* to decide exactly how I wish to
respond to a message.

  (This counterbalances  our add a reply-to-all
functionality messages. Probably the author didn't
take into account that *I* should also be allowed to
reply to all people and that this should be *my*
choice)


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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[- Edwin -]

Okay, I've seen my name so here we go again... ;)

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:59:27 +0900
Dave G [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Edwin,

Hi Dave,

   I read the articles you pointed out. I'm sorry, but I
   still have
 not seen any argument that makes me think that the
 reply-to-the author option is better. In another posting
 I've put forth some of my reasons.

Try this:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalm=105700977431019w=2

 And, what is your opinion regarding Reply All?
   Reply all is very useful sometimes. In the case of
   this mailing
 list, however, I see it as redundant. If I hit Reply All,
 then the person I'm responding gets it twice. Once
 directly, and once on the list, as this mail I'm writing
 now does. Since you will get this via the list, why do you
 also want to get it directly? 

One very good answer: (okay, you can count two)
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalm=106981188006409w=2
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalm=106981297807237w=2

   In any case, no one is saying that Reply All should
   be deleted
 as an option. The more options the better - respond to the
 list, the list and the author, the author only...

Um... this has been discussed as well. Most *other* mail
clients can do this--mine for one can do it -
http://sylpheed.good-day.net/

 all these
 options should be readily available. The debate is over
 what is the default behaviour. I maintain that the point of
 a list is to have open discussion, that people join
 precisely for the advantage of participating in a group,
 and so the postings should default to going to the group,
 with secondary options for posting off list.

... and quoting Jason Wong, what else can I say?

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalm=106983314920667w=2

[quote]
Breaking the list to cater for broken mail clients is a
ludicrous suggestion.
[/quote]

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Dave G]

[quote]
Breaking the list to cater for broken mail clients is a ludicrous
suggestion.
[/quote]

I don't know who is talking about broken anything, but I'm
certainly not. I don't think this list is broken, or that my email
software is broken, or that anyone else's is, or that other lists that
handle this issue differently are broken...
Nothing as far as I can see is broken. Everything is working
in the ways that people are intending them to work. It's the intentions
that are under question. To me the debate is not about what is the way
that any of the software is built, because that can be altered. It's
whether or not the chosen design is the most logical design.
So far it seems to me that there are two sides on this. On one
side are those who think that educated users of the internet and mail
and mailing lists have this system set up this way because it gives the
best set of options. And on the other side are those who think that
having a reply-to-list option makes more sense because it is a more
natural expectation of how mailing lists work.
Let's put tribal feelings of allegiance aside. Both points of
view are rational.
I tend towards the side that follows the natural expectation
model because I don't think it comes at the expense of any options. To
me the whole point of a group discussion is the group. So to default to
replying not to the group, but to the individuals in it, seems to run
contrary to the reasons I joined. That is where I am starting from, it's
got nothing to do with anyone's choice of software on either the client
or server side.

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Jason Wong]

On Wednesday 26 November 2003 17:26, Dave G wrote:

 [quote]
 Breaking the list to cater for broken mail clients is a ludicrous
 suggestion.
 [/quote]

[snip]

   I tend towards the side that follows the natural expectation
 model because I don't think it comes at the expense of any options. To
 me the whole point of a group discussion is the group. So to default to
 replying not to the group, but to the individuals in it, seems to run
 contrary to the reasons I joined. That is where I am starting from, it's
 got nothing to do with anyone's choice of software on either the client
 or server side.

Simply put, there are mail clients available which are mailing-list aware. To 
reply to the list you hit the reply-to-list button , to reply to the sender 
you hit the reply button, to reply to everybody and their dogs hit the 
reply-to-all button.

Now the mail client that you're using does not handle mailing-lists correctly, 
so instead of looking for a better mail client you want the mailing-list 
fixed instead?

It's a bit like saying damn, I can't fully utilise the features of MS 
Exchange  with my non-Outlook client, why don't MS fix Exchange so I can use 
it Yahoo mail?

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Nigel Jones]

I totally agree.

The cost for Outlook is heaps do you think we what to flush $200(or however
much it is in your country) down the drain???


And note to the ones that say just switch to another client well have you
ever worked in a Corporate Enviroment, Companies have their systems locked
down so hard. And just cos someone is a Software Dev doesn't mean they get
any special privs just some extra software to play around with.

For the Fact
Outlook is the Most Used Client in Corporate Enviroments
Outlook is one of the only MS Exchange Supporting Clients for Windows
Over 60% of Personal Computers are running windows


Now lets just say we were to all remove windows and use linux imagine all
the Money that has just going down the drain that we spent on MS
Office,Games,Windows

Also there is also the convenience factor of using Reply-To, why can't I
just reply to emails the way I do for my private emails?


You may want to read the following site: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/

Another 2 cents

(Man this discussion is getting expensive for some :P)



_
Nigel Jones
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


 -Original Message-
 From: Dave G [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 8:39 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)


  To start out, I'd just like to make an observation. I've noticed
 that some people in this thread have said how this argument has come up
 many times, and they would even prefer that people look in the archives
 to see what the results were of previous discussion. I find the fact
 that the topic has come up multiple times in itself indicative of what
 natural human expectations are. On the lists I belong to where responses
 go only to the list, this topic has never come up before. Some lists I
 have been on for years and years, and I swear this is the first time I
 have ever encountered this issue, here on this list which uses this
 system.

  Before I pick out some statements that I'd like to comment
 directly on, I wanted to point out a trend I've noticed which is an
 assertion that people who do not like the reply-to-the-author approach
 as opposed to the reply-to-the-list approach do not understand how to
 use it properly. Or they do not know how to properly use the reply to
 all button, or other nonsense.
  I understand this list, my mail software, and the theory behind
 the reply-to munging debate very well. Non comprehension or ability are
 not at issue here. Don't assume that non-agreement equals non
 understanding.

 My opinion is that this is a multi person discussion forum, not a
 person to person forum.
  I agree very strongly with this statement, and most of the email
 that follows it. If someone posts a question, and gets a private email
 solving the problem, how does everyone else benefit?
  I want other people's answers to be on this list so I can learn,
 and I want my answers to go to the list so that other people may build
 on it and add more useful commentary.

 If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better mail
 client...
  MS Outlook suffers from code bloat, but that does not mean it
 does not successfully do the task that I acquired it for, which is to
 receive, send, and filter my email, every day. And it has successfully
 handled the many mailing lists I belong to, including this one. Blaming
 the email client is just bias against brands.

 Just to add an authoritative answer here.  Mucking up the reply-to
 header is simply wrong.  I don't really care what arguments you come up
 with...
  This seems to describe the tone of the debate. The idea of an
 authority on a matter that is incapable of considering alternate
 viewpoints seems oxymoronic to me.

 --
 Cheers!
 Dave G
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Nigel Jones]

You have missed in my opinion the most important thing, many do NOT want to
throw money down the drain because their Client Doesn't support mailing
lists ok.

IMHO we'd be better off having a PHP Forum on php.net and scrub the Mailing
List altogether. That would just about suit everyone. You get to subscribe
to Topics you want to, you can subscribe to whole forums if you want to,
less Privacy Issues.



_
Nigel Jones
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


 -Original Message-
 From: Jason Wong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 10:42 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)



 Simply put, there are mail clients available which are
 mailing-list aware. To
 reply to the list you hit the reply-to-list button , to reply
 to the sender
 you hit the reply button, to reply to everybody and their dogs hit the
 reply-to-all button.

 Now the mail client that you're using does not handle
 mailing-lists correctly,
 so instead of looking for a better mail client you want the mailing-list
 fixed instead?

 It's a bit like saying damn, I can't fully utilise the features of MS
 Exchange  with my non-Outlook client, why don't MS fix Exchange
 so I can use
 it Yahoo mail?

 --
 Jason Wong - Gremlins Associates - www.gremlins.biz
 Open Source Software Systems Integrators
 * Web Design  Hosting * Internet  Intranet Applications Development *
 --
 Search the list archives before you post
 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-general
 --
 /*
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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Fernando Melo]

Guys. This is ridiculous!

When I check my mails from PHP General Mailing List it's to learn something
new about PHP and to help somebody to learn abut PHP.  NOT TO WITNESS CAT
FIGHTS.

Take your issues elsewhere as you or wasting everyone's time, space and
bandwidth.

-Original Message-
From: Nigel Jones [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 26 November 2003 12:04
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

You have missed in my opinion the most important thing, many do NOT want to
throw money down the drain because their Client Doesn't support mailing
lists ok.

IMHO we'd be better off having a PHP Forum on php.net and scrub the Mailing
List altogether. That would just about suit everyone. You get to subscribe
to Topics you want to, you can subscribe to whole forums if you want to,
less Privacy Issues.



_
Nigel Jones
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


 -Original Message-
 From: Jason Wong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 10:42 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)



 Simply put, there are mail clients available which are
 mailing-list aware. To
 reply to the list you hit the reply-to-list button , to reply
 to the sender
 you hit the reply button, to reply to everybody and their dogs hit the
 reply-to-all button.

 Now the mail client that you're using does not handle
 mailing-lists correctly,
 so instead of looking for a better mail client you want the mailing-list
 fixed instead?

 It's a bit like saying damn, I can't fully utilise the features of MS
 Exchange  with my non-Outlook client, why don't MS fix Exchange
 so I can use
 it Yahoo mail?

 --
 Jason Wong - Gremlins Associates - www.gremlins.biz
 Open Source Software Systems Integrators
 * Web Design  Hosting * Internet  Intranet Applications Development *
 --
 Search the list archives before you post
 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-general
 --
 /*
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 */

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Roddie Grant]

on 26/11/03 7:18 am, Rasmus Lerdorf at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Just to add an authoritative answer here.

I am now thoroughly confused!

I clicked Reply-All to Rasmus Lerdorf's message. Result:
To: Rasmus Lerdorf and Nigel Jones
Cc: PHP General Mailing List.

I clicked Reply-All on a Jason Wong message. Result:
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I clicked Reply-All on a David T-G message. Result:
To: David T-G and PHP General Mailing List
Cc: to Thomas Svenson.

[Moc OSX 10.2.3, Entourage 10.1.0]

What is supposed to happen? (This is a plea for education, not a gripe.)

Roddie Grant
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Adam i Agnieszka Gasiorowski FNORD]

John W. Holmes wrote:
 
 Adam i Agnieszka Gasiorowski FNORD wrote:
 
  Thomas Svenson wrote:
 If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better mail client
 that supports mailing lists, your problem would be solved.
 
 I wouldn't mind that at all. What clients do you recommend for WindwosXP? I
 want a small client (note: I have to use Outlook for business purposes, but
 have the lists on a separate account).
 
Try the Opera's 7 M2 (build-in revolutionary
   email and news client).
 
 Is this an advertisement or does it actually have the features everyone
 is looking for?

It certainly is not a very _mature_ product,
 but it is very usable. It depends on what features
 you require...The most important for me is the whole
 email database concept, dynamic views and searches.
 I, personally, use both Netscape Mail, The Bat and
 Opera's M2, to do different duties. I'm a registered
 user of The Bat and Opera :8]. I guess I am an email
 fanatic ;8]. Anyway, this is rather off-topic here.

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Adam i Agnieszka Gasiorowski FNORD]

John W. Holmes wrote:

Try the Opera's 7 M2 (build-in revolutionary
   email and news client).
 
 Is this an advertisement or does it actually have the features everyone
 is looking for?

Oh, it does automatically sort all complying
 mailing lists, BTW, no need to create filters
 manually - so it is rather mailing-list-aware :8].

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Eugene Lee]

On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 04:38:50PM +0900, Dave G wrote:
: 
: I find the fact that the topic has come up multiple times in itself
: indicative of what natural human expectations are.

I find that M$ Outlook does a number of things that going against
natural human expections.

: On the lists I belong to where responses go only to the list, this
: topic has never come up before. Some lists I have been on for years
: and years, and I swear this is the first time I have ever encountered
: this issue, here on this list which uses this system.

I'm on several other lists, and this particular topic always pops up on
an infrequent but regular basis.

[...]
: My opinion is that this is a multi person discussion forum, not a
: person to person forum.  
- Thomas Svenson

It would help if you provide attributes to these quotes.

:   I agree very strongly with this statement, and most of the email
: that follows it. If someone posts a question, and gets a private email
: solving the problem, how does everyone else benefit?

The user who answers your question via a private email might have
reasons to answer you privately.  The fact is that the user chose to
send an email to you and not the list.  If you think the user was
mistaken and wanted to answer your question on the list, then you are
now questioning the choice and the intent of the user.  Do you really
want to guess the wildly different expectations of the user?  I've seen
several instances of people getting a private email in response to a
list question who in turn respond to the private email and post to the
*list* instead of a private email.  Many people get offended when their
private email response gets posted to a public list.  Others respond by
staunchly refusing private email feedback from other list members, and
vehemently assert that all private email received from list members are
considered public material.  See how nasty this gets?

In summary, there are several problems.  Some don't know the difference
between a private email response and a public mailing list response.
This is solved by educating the end user.

Another problem is that some mail clients fail to inform the user that a
particular reply will go to a mailing list, to a person, on to both.
This is solved with superior mail clients that lets the user know.

This leads to another problem where some list members reply to both the
mailing list and the original poster.  However, the original poster may
or may not want to receive two or more copies of the exact same message.
This is solved by informing the possibly offending user that the reply,
while good-intentioned, is too verbose and needs to be trimmed.

The final problem is that some people have wildly different expections
of proper netiquette regarding mailing list responses.  And the answer?
This is solved by reminding the end user of the list rules, that the
list may be configured to obey those rules, and that all users should be
obliged to work within those rules.

: If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better mail
: client...
- Eugene Lee, just some random person

:   MS Outlook suffers from code bloat, but that does not mean it
: does not successfully do the task that I acquired it for, which is to
: receive, send, and filter my email, every day. And it has successfully
: handled the many mailing lists I belong to, including this one. Blaming
: the email client is just bias against brands.

Let's look at the problem again:

http://news.php.net/article.php?group=php.generalarticle=170904

http://news.php.net/article.php?group=php.generalarticle=170950

If M$ Outlook can handle the php-general mailing list, then the problem
is that the solution is not easily accessible to those who need it.
This is a documentation issue that should be addressed to those who
maintain the PHP web site.

If M$ Outlook cannot handle the php-general mailing list, then the
problem is with M$ Outlook and the solution is to use a better mail
client.  This is a stubborn user issue.

All other issues, see above.

: Just to add an authoritative answer here.  Mucking up the reply-to
: header is simply wrong.  I don't really care what arguments you come up
: with...
- Rasmus Lerdorf, not some random person, like the guy who invented PHP,
  is one of PHP's primary core developers, and other sweet nothings

:   This seems to describe the tone of the debate. The idea of an
: authority on a matter that is incapable of considering alternate
: viewpoints seems oxymoronic to me.

You're asking to break correct standards and practices that have worked
well for lots of people for a long time.  Read the issues above.  Some
issues are with broken or misconfigured mail clients.  Other issues are
with people who don't understand or do understand but have different
expectations of behavior.  You claim that you understand...the theory
behind the reply-to munging debate very well.  And the topic of using
the Reply-To: header to work 

Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[David T-G]

Roddie --

...and then Roddie Grant said...
% 
% on 26/11/03 7:18 am, Rasmus Lerdorf at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
% 
%  Just to add an authoritative answer here.
% 
% I am now thoroughly confused!

Well, that's an honest answer.


% 
...
% What is supposed to happen? (This is a plea for education, not a gripe.)

Exactly what you saw!  Yes, really.  Each person can configure his
headers however he wants so that he gets or doesn't get duplicate copies
of emails; that's why the Reply-To: and Mail-Followup-To: headers exist
at all.

It's OK :-)

If you still want to know more, go back to those emails and note the

  To:
  Cc:
  Reply-To:
  Mail-Followup-To:

headers and it should all become clear.  If not, send me the Message-ID
of each and I'll use that to find them and then analyze them for you.


% 
% Roddie Grant
% [EMAIL PROTECTED]


HTH  HAND

:-D
-- 
David T-G  * There is too much animal courage in 
(play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * society and not sufficient moral courage.
(work) [EMAIL PROTECTED]  -- Mary Baker Eddy, Science and Health
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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Jay Blanchard]

[snip]
 If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better
 mail client that supports mailing lists, your problem would
 be solved.[/snip]
 
 As has been said several times, not all can do this.

True. But maybe instead of *switching* they can just use
*another* mail client for mailing lists? ;)
[/snip]

Depends. Some corps would allow the installation of additional mail
clients, some would not.

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Sophie Mattoug]

Wouldn't it be possible to stop this troll ? Or go on, but in private 
between people who are interested by this matter...
Thanks

Jay Blanchard wrote:

[snip]
 

If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better
mail client that supports mailing lists, your problem would
be solved.[/snip]
As has been said several times, not all can do this.
   

True. But maybe instead of *switching* they can just use
*another* mail client for mailing lists? ;)
[/snip]
Depends. Some corps would allow the installation of additional mail
clients, some would not.
 

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Fernando Melo]

I agree!

-Original Message-
From: Sophie Mattoug [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 26 November 2003 14:39
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

Wouldn't it be possible to stop this troll ? Or go on, but in private 
between people who are interested by this matter...
Thanks

Jay Blanchard wrote:

[snip]
  

If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better
mail client that supports mailing lists, your problem would
be solved.[/snip]

As has been said several times, not all can do this.



True. But maybe instead of *switching* they can just use
*another* mail client for mailing lists? ;)
[/snip]

Depends. Some corps would allow the installation of additional mail
clients, some would not.

  


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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[David T-G]

Dave, et al --

...and then Dave G said...
% 
% Edwin,
%   I read the articles you pointed out. I'm sorry, but I still have
% not seen any argument that makes me think that the reply-to-the author
% option is better. In another posting I've put forth some of my reasons.

Perhaps you've simply missed the point.  By not mandating a certain R-T
header the list software does not force reply-to-author but instead
simply allows whatever reply you want.

If such a header is in place and you want to reply to the author, you
must work around it.  If it is not in place, you are free to reply to the
list, the author, other recipients of the original, or any combination of
such.


HTH  HAND

:-D
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David T-G  * There is too much animal courage in 
(play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * society and not sufficient moral courage.
(work) [EMAIL PROTECTED]  -- Mary Baker Eddy, Science and Health
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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[David T-G]

Nigel, et al --

...and then Nigel Jones said...
% 
% You have missed in my opinion the most important thing, many do NOT want to
% throw money down the drain because their Client Doesn't support mailing
% lists ok.

What money down the drain?  Most of the mail clients presented as
alternatives are free, and the productivity enhancements available
with some of them would more than pay for a meg or two of bandwidth
to download and an hour to set up.


% 
% IMHO we'd be better off having a PHP Forum on php.net and scrub the Mailing
% List altogether. That would just about suit everyone. You get to subscribe
% to Topics you want to, you can subscribe to whole forums if you want to,
% less Privacy Issues.

Bleah.  What a lousy communication forum that would be.  But I defend
to the death your right to propose such an idea :-)


% _
% Nigel Jones
% [EMAIL PROTECTED]


HTH  HAND

:-D
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David T-G  * There is too much animal courage in 
(play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * society and not sufficient moral courage.
(work) [EMAIL PROTECTED]  -- Mary Baker Eddy, Science and Health
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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[David T-G]

Panos --

...and then Panos Konstantinidis said...
% 
%  
%  What's the problem with the Reply All button?
% 
%   Which of the following words you just don't
% understand: *some mail clients (eg yahoo) do not have
% a Reply All button?

Which of the following words do you not understand?

  GET A BETTER MAIL CLIENT


HAND

:-D
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(play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * society and not sufficient moral courage.
(work) [EMAIL PROTECTED]  -- Mary Baker Eddy, Science and Health
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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[David T-G]

Dave, et al --

...and then Dave G said...
% 
%   To start out, I'd just like to make an observation. I've noticed
...
% that the topic has come up multiple times in itself indicative of what
% natural human expectations are. On the lists I belong to where responses

I very much disagree; I consider the topic indiciative of how screwed up
mail has become thanks to such garbageware as MS Outlook (not the only
offender but, as noted by Nigel, by far the most common).


...
%   I understand this list, my mail software, and the theory behind
% the reply-to munging debate very well. Non comprehension or ability are
% not at issue here. Don't assume that non-agreement equals non
% understanding.

I agree that it doesn't.  I would state instead that non-agreement equals
mis-education and improperly set expectations.


% 
% My opinion is that this is a multi person discussion forum, not a
% person to person forum.  
%   I agree very strongly with this statement, and most of the email
% that follows it. If someone posts a question, and gets a private email
% solving the problem, how does everyone else benefit?

So don't get a private email; nobody is saying that you have to.  [By the
way, that works quite well on a number of lists; someone asks a question,
gets numerous responses, and then that same person posts a summary and
solution back to the list for future benefit and possible further comment.]
But if the list sets the Reply-To: header then it's awfully hard to send
one, isn't it, even if you want to!


HTH  HAND

:-D
-- 
David T-G  * There is too much animal courage in 
(play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * society and not sufficient moral courage.
(work) [EMAIL PROTECTED]  -- Mary Baker Eddy, Science and Health
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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Duncan Hill]

On Wednesday 26 November 2003 10:04, Nigel Jones wrote:

 IMHO we'd be better off having a PHP Forum on php.net and scrub the Mailing
 List altogether. That would just about suit everyone. You get to subscribe
 to Topics you want to, you can subscribe to whole forums if you want to,
 less Privacy Issues.

Meep!

That would instantly see me not reading, or posting.  Having the system 
delivered to my door, not bogged down by markup etc is wonderful.  Moreover, 
the data is archived world wide with e-mail.  Web forums don't (imo) lend 
themselves to that as easily.

However, propose away :)  I just wouldn't use it.  E-mail + threading + no 
markup bloat is my choice of receiving the info from the list.

If you really want a forum interface, work out how to tie in a web based NNTP 
interface that'll do that :

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[David T-G]

Nigel --

...and then Nigel Jones said...
% 
% I totally agree.

With what?


% 
% The cost for Outlook is heaps do you think we what to flush $200(or however
% much it is in your country) down the drain???

While doing my best to not ridicule your [company's] choice of on what to
spend some money, who is asking you to flush anything?


% 
% 
% And note to the ones that say just switch to another client well have you
% ever worked in a Corporate Enviroment, Companies have their systems locked

Yes.


% down so hard. And just cos someone is a Software Dev doesn't mean they get
% any special privs just some extra software to play around with.

So?  Not only might some of that extra software be a good mail program,
you don't need special privs to use another mail program.


% 
% For the Fact
% Outlook is the Most Used Client in Corporate Enviroments

I'll accept that.  Sucks, doesn't it?


% Outlook is one of the only MS Exchange Supporting Clients for Windows

One of the only doesn't say much.  I would hazard a guess that, in
fact, only Outlook or perhaps at the very widest only MS products support
Exchange.  And why on earth should I care about Exchange anyway?  But
that's only if you need Exchange-specific features; Exchange also talks
to real mail clients via IMAP and POP3.


% Over 60% of Personal Computers are running windows

While this may or may not be true, it is quite unverified and pretty much
useless.


% 
% 
% Now lets just say we were to all remove windows and use linux imagine all
% the Money that has just going down the drain that we spent on MS
% Office,Games,Windows

Aside from the cheering, it hardly matters; you've already thrown the
money down the drain anyway because it's been spent.  The *real* win
comes next year when you don't have to pay AGAIN to license crapware for
another year, or when you expand or start or otherwise need software in
the future and don't have to come up with enormous sums of money for it.
But that's beside the point; even though *I* don't need Windows except
for a couple of important-to-me Windows-specific programs (and I
personally would happily rather go and get a Mac and use the Mac version
than bring in a Windows box if I didn't have one), nobody has even hinted
at everyone dumping Windows.


% 
% Also there is also the convenience factor of using Reply-To, why can't I
% just reply to emails the way I do for my private emails?

Because it's not private email, amongst other possible reasons.


% 
% 
% You may want to read the following site: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/

Although I have read many of the docs on there, I still don't see what
in particular it has to do with this discussion and have on interest in
reading everything there again with this goal in mind.  You may want to
make a somewhat more focused suggestion if it is meant constructively.


% 
% Another 2 cents
% 
% (Man this discussion is getting expensive for some :P)

So let's just stop talking about it and leave the list semantics alone.


% 
% _
% Nigel Jones
% [EMAIL PROTECTED]


HTH  HAND

:-D
-- 
David T-G  * There is too much animal courage in 
(play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * society and not sufficient moral courage.
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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Roger B.A. Klorese]

 you don't need special privs to use another mail program.

Actually, given the fact that the other products you're talking about are
POP or IMAP clients, and most Exchange-based companies allow only MAPI
clients (specifically Outlook and the Outlook Web Access client), that could
easily be considered special privs.

 And why on earth should I care about Exchange anyway?  But
 that's only if you need Exchange-specific features; Exchange 
 also talks
 to real mail clients via IMAP and POP3.

Not by default -- only if you *want* to enable other clients (which will not
be able to access full Exchange functionality).

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Chris Shiflett]

--- Panos Konstantinidis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Which of the following words you just don't
  understand: The Reply All button is just BESIDE
  (on the right side) of the Reply button!
 
 There is not such a button.

They tricked you and changed this recently. When you click the Reply
button, you will be shown Reply to Sender and Reply to Everyone. Pick
whichever one is appropriate.

Chris

=
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PHP Security Handbook
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HTTP Developer's Handbook
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RAMP Training Courses
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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s) [SOLVED, for me, anyway]

[Dave G]

Dave T-G said:
 Perhaps you've simply missed the point.  By not mandating a certain
R-T
 header the list software does not force reply-to-author but instead
 simply allows whatever reply you want.

And Jason Wong said:
 Simply put, there are mail clients available which are mailing-list
aware. To 
 reply to the list you hit the reply-to-list button , to reply to the
sender 
 you hit the reply button, to reply to everybody and their dogs hit
the 
 reply-to-all button.

  I was wrong, wrong, so very wrong. I see the light now, and I am
completely changing my stance on this.
  I now understand that what I want is mailing software which is
mailing list aware so that I can set up the default behaviour of my
reply button to go to the list and not to the user, because that is my
user preference.
  I can see some logic in having a third button that says reply to
list, and that would be a better solution than changing the behaviour
of the list itself. What I failed to see before was how the way this
list set up allowed for configurability. I had the mistaken idea that
the list behaviour leveraged a certain amount of control over the email
client behaviour.
  Also, it was hard for me to grasp it, because in my case 99% of the
time I would want to respond to a message I got via a mailing list by
sending it back to the list, to get the maximum benefit of many people
involved in the problem solving process. But that just allowed me to
slip into a personal bias.
  I was wrong, and I'm big enough to say it. Wrong, wrong, wrong. In
fact, I'm going to revel in it. I have learned, changed, grown. This is
good.

  So, now, what I personally want, in order to take advantage of this
non munging approach to mailing lists, is three buttons:
  1. Reply, and the default behaviour, in the case of mailing lists,
is to send to the list.
  2. Reply to all, to send to everyone and their dog, because canine
input is very important.
  3. Reply to email author only for, again in the case of mailing
lists, the odd exceptional time when I want to reply not to the list,
but just to the guy/gal who posted the message.

  So, if anyone has recommendations for email software which allows me
to set up these buttons in this way, please let me know. You've
convinced me that this mailing list system offers the most control, so
which software allows me to best take advantage of it?

-- 
Cheers!
Dave G
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s) [SOLVED, for me, anyway]

[David T-G]

Dave, et al --

...and then Dave G said...
% 
% 
% Dave T-G said:
...
%  simply allows whatever reply you want.
% 
% And Jason Wong said:
%  Simply put, there are mail clients available which are mailing-list
% aware. To 
...
% 
%   I was wrong, wrong, so very wrong. I see the light now, and I am
% completely changing my stance on this.

It's not about being right or wrong, although I do have my own ideas of
what is right and will passionately defend them.  I am glad to see that
what I/we have been saying has at least come clear, even if you were to
continue to disagree.  That's *good*.


%   I now understand that what I want is mailing software which is
% mailing list aware so that I can set up the default behaviour of my
% reply button to go to the list and not to the user, because that is my
% user preference.

Right!  Piece of cake.


...
%   I was wrong, and I'm big enough to say it. Wrong, wrong, wrong. In
% fact, I'm going to revel in it. I have learned, changed, grown. This is
% good.

Your attitude is good, too.  I could learn a lot from it (I'm working on
it, though!).


% 
%   So, now, what I personally want, in order to take advantage of this
% non munging approach to mailing lists, is three buttons:
%   1. Reply, and the default behaviour, in the case of mailing lists,
% is to send to the list.

Yep.  We mutt users call that list reply.


%   2. Reply to all, to send to everyone and their dog, because canine
% input is very important.

Yep.  That's group reply from where I come.  Dogs are optional :-)


%   3. Reply to email author only for, again in the case of mailing
% lists, the odd exceptional time when I want to reply not to the list,
% but just to the guy/gal who posted the message.

Yep.  That's the good old reply we all know and love.


% 
%   So, if anyone has recommendations for email software which allows me
% to set up these buttons in this way, please let me know. You've
% convinced me that this mailing list system offers the most control, so
% which software allows me to best take advantage of it?

I highly recommend mutt; it does all of that and more.  What many mutt
users do is set up 'reply' to reply to the list when reading a list (and
then set up something else for reply only to the author if they prefer
industrious work over a casual reply-to-all-and-trim) so that the typical
action is even the same.

I don't know from any other mail programs -- mutt does everything I need
and then some -- but I have heard good things about Evolution, Sylpheed,
and TheBAT! at various times.


% 
% -- 
% Cheers!
% Dave G
% [EMAIL PROTECTED]


HTH  HAND

:-D
-- 
David T-G  * There is too much animal courage in 
(play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * society and not sufficient moral courage.
(work) [EMAIL PROTECTED]  -- Mary Baker Eddy, Science and Health
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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s) [SOLVED, for me, anyway]

[Gerard Samuel]

 I don't know from any other mail programs -- mutt does everything I need
 and then some -- but I have heard good things about Evolution, Sylpheed,
 and TheBAT! at various times.



If you're in a *nix environment, add KMail.

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Rasmus Lerdorf]

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Dave G wrote:
 Just to add an authoritative answer here.  Mucking up the reply-to
 header is simply wrong.  I don't really care what arguments you come up
 with...
   This seems to describe the tone of the debate. The idea of an
 authority on a matter that is incapable of considering alternate
 viewpoints seems oxymoronic to me.

It was an authoritative answer in the sense that I'm the guy who would 
have to be convinced to make this change and I really don't see this 
happening.  I do understand all the arguments and I have duly considered 
them.  Believe it or not, but I actually know a little bit about this 
stuff.  Here are just a small set of reasons to keep things the way they 
are:

 1. Default to safety!  

  If I think I am sending a private email and unknown to me it ends up 
  going to a public mailing list with hundreds of subscribers and
  archives all over the Net, there is no way to undo the security 
  breach this could cause if I inadvertently put some non-public 
  information in my reply.  If the odd message intended to be public
  instead ends up private, this is a small price to pay and something
  that can easily be remedied by either the sender or the receiver
  after the fact.

 2. People often want personal responses

- There are many interfaces to the PHP mailing lists and people do 
  not need to be subscribed to send a question to one of the lists.  
  If you are not subscribed to the list, it is very nice to get a
  private reply to your question and all other replies in the thread
  which is exactly what happens when people properly do a reply-all

- Sometimes the mailing lists are slow to propogate messages.  By
  also sending a private reply the person asking the question gets a
  much quicker response.

  And no, the but I don't want two copies isn't much of an argument.
  Any decent mail system should be able to weed out duplicate 
  messages.  The following procmail rule does it, for example:

# Remove duplicates
:0 Whc: msgid.lock
| formail -D 16384 msgid.cache
:0 a:
duplicates

  I'm saving a copy in duplicates, just in case here, but you could 
  also just trash the copy.  

  And yes, I realize not everyone has the ability to install their own
  procmail rules but again, this is a technical forum with a lot of
  people who can do this stuff.  Dumbing down and crippling the list 
  to cater to the less fortunate at the expense of the rest of us is
  not going to happen.  This might even help push others to use more
  advanced mail clients and mail servers.

 3. Avoiding misconfigured mailers from trashing our lists

  I often see vacation messages and other crap on lists that have the
  reply-to set to point back to the list.  This has also been known
  to cause mail loops with dozens of copies of this stuff getting sent 
  to every subscriber of the list.

 4. Quality over quantity

  I personally don't think it would be a bad thing if we saw less 
  replies go directly to the mailing list.  Especially for 
  high-volume php-general where there are a lot of newbie questions.
  If you know something has been answered dozens of times publically,
  a quick private response is fine.  And if the person asking the 
  question would then optionally post a summary later on our signal
  to noise ratio would go up considerably.

 5. Deleting existing reply-to headers?

  Most people would agree that if a message is sent to the list with
  an existing reply-to header, then it shouldn't be deleted.  Because
  if you delete it, there may be absolutely no way to reach the 
  original author.  The purpose of the reply-to header is to allow you
  to specify where you want replies to your message to go.  You could
  even send it from someone else's account and set the reply-to to 
  your address and should should reasonably expect replies to end up
  at the address you specify.  Now, if that holds, then only setting 
  the reply-to on messages that don't already have a reply-to, which
  some mailing list software does, means you now lose consistency. 
  Sometimes a reply will go to the list, sometimes it won't.  

I could rhyme off another 5-10 reasons here, but even stopping after #1 in 
the above list is more than enough for me to justify the current list 
configuration.

-Rasmus

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Rasmus Lerdorf]

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Nigel Jones wrote:

 You have missed in my opinion the most important thing, many do NOT want to
 throw money down the drain because their Client Doesn't support mailing
 lists ok.
 
 IMHO we'd be better off having a PHP Forum on php.net and scrub the Mailing
 List altogether. That would just about suit everyone. You get to subscribe
 to Topics you want to, you can subscribe to whole forums if you want to,
 less Privacy Issues.

Except perhaps the people you most want to reach.  Many of the oldtimers 
like myself who have the most experience with this stuff and can thus 
answer the most questions would never do so if it was a web forum.  And 
there are plenty of PHP web forums out there that illustrate this point.

A web browser is for buying toilet paper online.  An email client is for
communicating.

-Rasmus

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Curt Zirzow]

* Thus wrote Nigel Jones ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 IMHO we'd be better off having a PHP Forum on php.net and scrub the Mailing
 List altogether. That would just about suit everyone. You get to subscribe
 to Topics you want to, you can subscribe to whole forums if you want to,
 less Privacy Issues.

There is already a thing like that called nntp://news.php.net/

Curt
-- 
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http://zirzow.dyndns.org/html/mlists/

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Justin French]

On Wednesday, November 26, 2003, at 09:04  PM, Nigel Jones wrote:

IMHO we'd be better off having a PHP Forum on php.net and scrub the 
Mailing
List altogether. That would just about suit everyone. You get to 
subscribe
to Topics you want to, you can subscribe to whole forums if you want 
to,
less Privacy Issues.
Providing support and help to people on this list is utterly time 
consuming, but very rewarding.  However, the minute it gets moved to a 
cluttered, slow web interface where I'm forced to use someone else idea 
of an interface (rather than my own preference of mail client) is the 
minute I'd stop posting.

I think it would double --or even tripple-- the time taken to help 
people.

No web-based forum GUI can ever be as fast, intuitive, or customisable 
as me choosing my own mail client.

Furthermore. with email, I can:

- easily archive, search, delete, move around email messages IN A WAY 
WHICH SUITS ME
- download all messages to be read at a later date -- even offline
- reply to a whole bunch of emails offline, then click send all next 
time i'm back online

If you want a PHP forum, try one of the many that exist, including the 
one on sitepoint.com (which I can never be bothered replying on, 
because it takes too much time), and leave this list alone.

Justin French

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Malcolm]

On Tue, 14 May 2002 22:23:24 +0900, - Edwin - [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

Hi,

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:10:12 -0500
John W. Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Adam i Agnieszka Gasiorowski FNORD wrote:

 Thomas Svenson wrote:
If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a
better mail clientthat supports mailing lists, your
problem would be solved.
I wouldn't mind that at all. What clients do you
recommend for WindwosXP? Iwant a small client (note: I
have to use Outlook for business purposes, buthave the
lists on a separate account).

Try the Opera's 7 M2 (build-in revolutionary
  email and news client).
Is this an advertisement or does it actually have the
features everyone is looking for?
I'm using the browser but not the email and news client so
I'm not sure but I just came across this: (Pls. check under
subheading Mailing lists.)
http://www.opera.com/support/tutorials/opera/m2/folders/?test=pop

And, umm... PHP in Opera looks great. ;)
:)

- E -
__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! BB is Broadband by Yahoo!
http://bb.yahoo.co.jp/


Opera 7.23 on windows and reading this as a newsgroup, the reply goes to 
the group, as I would expect.

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s) [SOLVED, for me, anyway]

[Dave G]

  I'm on XP. I would change over to Linux in a heartbeat if Adobe
products were available on that OS, but alas, they are not, and the GIMP
is, by their own description, not a Photoshop killer.

  I'm considering the Opera M2 mailer, but it looks kind of immature. 

-- 
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Dave G
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Chris Shiflett]

--- Rasmus Lerdorf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 A web browser is for buying toilet paper online. An email client is for
 communicating.

If we had a quote of the week, I think this would be it. :-)

Chris

=
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PHP Security Handbook
 Coming mid-2004
HTTP Developer's Handbook
 http://httphandbook.org/
RAMP Training Courses
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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[David T-G]

Thomas --

...and then Thomas Svenson said...
% 
% Hi,

Hi!


% 
% It would be nice if the moderator of this, and the other PHP-lists could fix
% so the listserver automatically add a Reply-To header to all the mails.

No it wouldn't.  It would be a Bad Thing.  This was just beaten to death
[again] recently, as I recall, unless maybe that was munging the Subject:
line instead.


% 
% When I hit Reply my message would then automatically reply to the list and
% not the author. Less hassle for me when replying and less risk of forgetting
% it.

Much better for you to Do It Right, perhaps including changing to a real
mail program.  See the archives for the full discussion.


% 
% /T
% 
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% To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php


HTH  HAND  now back to our regular PHP questions...

:-D
-- 
David T-G  * There is too much animal courage in 
(play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * society and not sufficient moral courage.
(work) [EMAIL PROTECTED]  -- Mary Baker Eddy, Science and Health
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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Sophie Mattoug]

And mly opinion is it's _really_ _very_ useful (I just sent my message 
to someone instead of the list! Gr Annoying!)

Sophie Mattoug wrote:

It's the way we do on [EMAIL PROTECTED], and everything is fine !

David T-G wrote:

Thomas --

...and then Thomas Svenson said...
% % Hi,
Hi!

% % It would be nice if the moderator of this, and the other 
PHP-lists could fix
% so the listserver automatically add a Reply-To header to all the 
mails.

No it wouldn't.  It would be a Bad Thing.  This was just beaten to death
[again] recently, as I recall, unless maybe that was munging the 
Subject:
line instead.

% % When I hit Reply my message would then automatically reply to the 
list and
% not the author. Less hassle for me when replying and less risk of 
forgetting
% it.

Much better for you to Do It Right, perhaps including changing to a real
mail program.  See the archives for the full discussion.
% % /T
% % -- % PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
% To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
HTH  HAND  now back to our regular PHP questions...

:-D
 


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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Chris Garaffa]

On Nov 25, 2003, at 11:57 AM, Thomas Svenson wrote:

Hi,

It would be nice if the moderator of this, and the other PHP-lists 
could fix
so the listserver automatically add a Reply-To header to all the mails.

When I hit Reply my message would then automatically reply to the list 
and
not the author. Less hassle for me when replying and less risk of 
forgetting
it.
Thomas,

You might be interested in reading this document: 
http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html.

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Chris Shiflett]

--- Thomas Svenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 It would be nice if the moderator of this, and the other PHP-lists
 could fix so the listserver automatically add a Reply-To header to
 all the mails.
 
 When I hit Reply my message would then automatically reply to the
 list and not the author. Less hassle for me when replying and less
 risk of forgetting it.

What you are suggesting is not adding a Reply-To header. As you can see in
this email from me, there is already one there. What you are suggesting is
mangling the Reply-To header, so that it is changed from being correct to
being incorrect. This is every bit as bad as it sounds.

In addition, if someone wants to reply to an email that I send, they
should be able to select the Reply option in their mail client of
choice. If they want to reply to the list, they can choose Reply List in
their mail client of choice. If their mail client is too lame to recognize
mailing list headers, they can choose Reply All to reply to the sender
as well as any other recipients, such as a mailing list.

Now, what happens when someone who is not subscribed to the list, or who
is subscribed to the digest mode, asks a question? If we mangle the
Reply-To header, those who choose Reply All will only reply to the list,
thereby sending the answer to everyone except the person who asked it.

This list is far too busy to be doing things the wrong way.

Chris

=
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PHP Security Handbook
 Coming mid-2004
HTTP Developer's Handbook
 http://httphandbook.org/
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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Marek Kilimajer]

David T-G wrote:
% 
% When I hit Reply my message would then automatically reply to the list and
% not the author. Less hassle for me when replying and less risk of forgetting
% it.

Much better for you to Do It Right, perhaps including changing to a real
mail program.  See the archives for the full discussion.
Use Reply All button.

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[David T-G]

Sophie -

...and then Sophie Mattoug said...
% 
% And mly opinion is it's _really_ _very_ useful (I just sent my message 
% to someone instead of the list! Gr Annoying!)

Since it was apparently intended for the list, I'll reply to all what I
sent to you:

  Just because it's done badly somewhere else, such as on php-france,
  doesn't make it a good thing.  See the archives for lots of religious
  warring on the issue.

I'm sorry for people out there who can't manage to reply properly, but
let's not screw up a perfectly good list trying to take care of the
lowest common denominator.  It's bad enough already that many here don't
know (or perhaps care) about message threading or decent quoting.


HTH  HAND

:-D
-- 
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(play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * society and not sufficient moral courage.
(work) [EMAIL PROTECTED]  -- Mary Baker Eddy, Science and Health
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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Duncan Hill]

Thomas Svenson said:
 Hi,

 It would be nice if the moderator of this, and the other PHP-lists could fix
 so the listserver automatically add a Reply-To header to all the mails.

 When I hit Reply my message would then automatically reply to the list and
 not the author. Less hassle for me when replying and less risk of forgetting
 it.

Much better to just switch to a mail client that understands the list headers
in the mail, and supports reply to list.  KMail (KDE) and Squirrelmail (web)
are two that spring to mind.

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Dan Joseph]

Hi,

 Much better to just switch to a mail client that understands the
 list headers
 in the mail, and supports reply to list.  KMail (KDE) and
 Squirrelmail (web)
 are two that spring to mind.

The only problem with that is not everyone has an option to switch clients.
However, I think this is all a debate with no cause.  The list owners seem
adament in not changing the configuration of the list server.

-Dan Joseph

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[David T-G]

Dan, et al --

...and then Dan Joseph said...
% 
% Hi,

Hiya!


% 
%  Much better to just switch to a mail client that understands the
...
% 
%   The only problem with that is not everyone has an option to switch clients.

Yes, but that subset is very, very small.  There is almost always a way.
Of course, then you have to have someone motivated enough to want to try
one of the many ways typically available; THAT is the real trick.


% However, I think this is all a debate with no cause.  The list owners seem
% adament in not changing the configuration of the list server.

And for that, List Owners, I thank you, wherever you are :-)


% 
% -Dan Joseph


HAND

:-D
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(play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * society and not sufficient moral courage.
(work) [EMAIL PROTECTED]  -- Mary Baker Eddy, Science and Health
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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Dave G]

  This is, I suppose, a completely off topic thread. However, I just
read the web page
http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
and I was completely unconvinced. In all the years that I have belonged
to and run mailing lists, I have never experienced any difficulties.
Period. Never. It has been easier and more convenient than this reply
to the sender and not the list system, without a doubt.
  The complaints as outlined on the web page are somewhat silly. When
saying that replying to the mail author is a big hassle on mailing
systems with munging the web page author says that one has to write
down the sender's email address and other steps which simply don't
apply. I'm using Outlook, and I've always been able to just double click
the original senders address and send that way. No writing down, or even
copying and pasting required.
  There's even a privacy argument to be made that some people may prefer
a list where their own address is not shown. What they post is for, and
in context of, the list only, and not an invitation for private mail. In
some situations, I think that would be fair.
  Coddling the Brain-Dead, Penalizing the Conscientious is just
needlessly inflammatory and biased. If the over whelming majority of
people expect a system to behave one way, that's not evidence that they
are brain dead, but that it's very likely the expected behaviour is
more natural for people, and systems should match humans, not vice
versa.
  Freedom of choice is equally satisfied by automatically going to the
list but being able to choose to send to the email author. It's the
exact equivalent of automatically going to the author but being able to
choose to send to the list.
  It Adds Nothing is absolutely false. Being able to automatically
respond to the list adds more naturally expected behaviour.
  I could go on, point by point. But I have a feeling it would fall on
deaf ears. If the overwhelming evidence that so many mailing lists and
so many people on them function very well on email lists where the mail
automatically goes to the list is not evidence enough, than I doubt
anything ever will be.
  Telling people that they need to use proper email software and go
about things in the way they don't expect is not a path to sensible
human interfaces. Computers, machines, systems, should match us, not us
to them. In any case, despite the difficulties, computers are much
easier to change than people.
  I remain steadfast in my opinion that automatically replying to the
list is a much more natural option. 

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Gabriel Guzman]

On Tuesday 25 November 2003 09:51 am, Dave G wrote:

snip
   Telling people that they need to use proper email software and go
 about things in the way they don't expect 

which they are you refering to?  i expect my reply button to reply to the 
person who sent the initial message... not everyone subscribed to the list.  
so, luckily for me, does the admin of this list. 

 Computers, machines, systems, should match us, not us
 to them. 

and by not messing with the reply-to header, in this case, the systems does 
match me.  it's really just a difference of opinion, and I'm sure one that 
will always exist. 

 In any case, despite the difficulties, computers are much
 easier to change than people.

true. 

 I remain steadfast in my opinion that automatically replying to the
 list is a much more natural option.

and I remain steadfast in mine that automatically replying to the person who 
sent the message is a much more natural option.  

it's a no win situation, either way someone will be unhappy. 

gabe. 

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[David T-G]

Dave, et al --

...and then Dave G said...
% 
%   This is, I suppose, a completely off topic thread. However, I just

It sure is.  And this has come up many times before.  It's all in the
archives.

The only reason I bother to answer when the problem rears its head again
is to fight, tooth and nail, to prevent the idea from coming to fruition
this time even if it hasn't the countless times in the past.


% read the web page
% http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

I'm glad you took the time to read it.  That's more than some can bother
to do.


...
%   The complaints as outlined on the web page are somewhat silly. When

Heh.  So is this argument, but we're here :-)


% saying that replying to the mail author is a big hassle on mailing
% systems with munging the web page author says that one has to write
% down the sender's email address and other steps which simply don't

Admitted, although these days copy-n-paste is often considered the
equivalent of writing something down.  I think, however, that the author
means that having to specifically take note of the address is the painful
thing.  With a Reply-To: field in place you no longer have the choice of
replying to the sender or to the list, so if you want to exercise a
different choice you have to work around your obedient mail software to
ignore such a header.


% apply. I'm using Outlook, and I've always been able to just double click

If you'll allow me to take the gloves off for a moment, it is Microsoft
and Outlook which have made major damaging contributions to email and
news communications.  Outlook doesn't want to bother its users with such
[supposed] frivolity as headers, and is busy autoformatting text and playing
with fonts and colors and such, and as a result valuable information is lost
or ignored and we have mile-long TOFU posts that just waste time and space.

Internet email and news have been around a long longer than Outlook and
were just fine before someone decided Hey, let's throw away these
established working practices and do something entirely different.
Lotus Notes did basically the same thing but it never really caught on
and so we don't have the same plague from that, and now as I understand
it Notes is much smarter about working with the Internet.


...
%   There's even a privacy argument to be made that some people may prefer
% a list where their own address is not shown. What they post is for, and
% in context of, the list only, and not an invitation for private mail. In
% some situations, I think that would be fair.

Phooey.  Unless a list is an anonymous remailer the sender information is
available no matter how the Reply-To: field is set.


%   Coddling the Brain-Dead, Penalizing the Conscientious is just
% needlessly inflammatory and biased. If the over whelming majority of

Call it what you will, but with an Outlook-ization of the 'net and the
web a bunch of brain-dead users is basically what you have.


% people expect a system to behave one way, that's not evidence that they
% are brain dead, but that it's very likely the expected behaviour is

But if that one way is a broken way then it is just such evidence!  Perhaps
a better definition is ignorant or miseducated but the point remains
that those who know what they're doing don't do it the wrong way and won't
willingly put up with a broken system.


...
%   Freedom of choice is equally satisfied by automatically going to the
% list but being able to choose to send to the email author. It's the
% exact equivalent of automatically going to the author but being able to
% choose to send to the list.

Equivalent, yes, but so was segregation -- separate but equal facilities.
That didn't make segregation right, and it doesn't make a broken system
right.


%   It Adds Nothing is absolutely false. Being able to automatically
% respond to the list adds more naturally expected behaviour.

See above for miseducated explanation.


%   I could go on, point by point. But I have a feeling it would fall on
% deaf ears. If the overwhelming evidence that so many mailing lists and

Mostly it would.  At least I hope it would!


% so many people on them function very well on email lists where the mail
% automatically goes to the list is not evidence enough, than I doubt
% anything ever will be.

Just because does not appear obviously and painfully broken does not mean
that it is being done right, especially when those suffering don't know
that the suffering is needless and not normal!


%   Telling people that they need to use proper email software and go
% about things in the way they don't expect is not a path to sensible
% human interfaces. Computers, machines, systems, should match us, not us
% to them. In any case, despite the difficulties, computers are much
% easier to change than people.

Yep.  So change Microsoft's products' behavior, along with that of a few
others, and let's fix this problem the right way from the root.


%   I remain steadfast in my opinion that 

Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[RT]

On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 11:57, Thomas Svenson wrote:
 Hi,
 
 It would be nice if the moderator of this, and the other PHP-lists could fix
 so the listserver automatically add a Reply-To header to all the mails.
 
 When I hit Reply my message would then automatically reply to the list and
 not the author. Less hassle for me when replying and less risk of forgetting
 it.
 
 /T
 
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I have one thing to say just so I can feel important in a OT thread.

Why change it if it's not broken?
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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Eugene Lee]

On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 04:57:41PM -, Thomas Svenson wrote:
: 
: It would be nice if the moderator of this, and the other PHP-lists
: could fix so the listserver automatically add a Reply-To header to all
: the mails.
: 
: When I hit Reply my message would then automatically reply to the list
: and not the author. Less hassle for me when replying and less risk of
: forgetting it.

If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better mail client
that supports mailing lists, your problem would be solved.

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Chris W. Parker]

Eugene Lee mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:47 PM said:

 If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better mail client
 that supports mailing lists, your problem would be solved.

The problem with your theory is that some of us are in corporate
environments where personal email is not allowed and therefore a
separate client would not work. And we especially cannot abandon Outlook
because afaik there are no other email clients that can talk to Exchange
as well as Outlook can.



Chris.
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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Glenn E. Sieb]

 From: Eugene Lee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

 If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better 
 mail client that supports mailing lists, your problem would be solved.

Amusing--I've used Eudora.. I've used Mozilla.. I've used Netscape.. I don't see that 
behaviour in any of those. So, care to tell us which M$-Windows mail program supports 
this?

Thanks,
Glenn
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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Cesar Cordovez]

I had the same problem here until, I installed Netscape to handle my 
personal mail (this list).  Works great!

Chris: Why don't you give it a try?

Chris W. Parker wrote:
The problem with your theory is that some of us are in corporate
environments where personal email is not allowed and therefore a
separate client would not work. And we especially cannot abandon Outlook
because afaik there are no other email clients that can talk to Exchange
as well as Outlook can.
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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Eugene Lee]

On Wed, Nov 26, 2003 at 02:51:58AM +0900, Dave G wrote:
: 
:   Telling people that they need to use proper email software and go
: about things in the way they don't expect is not a path to sensible
: human interfaces. Computers, machines, systems, should match us, not
: us to them. In any case, despite the difficulties, computers are much
: easier to change than people.

Composing email is a learned behavior.  There is nothing intrinsically
natural or sensible about it.  If you learned something the wrong way,
you can relearn it the right way.  It's true that computer systems are
designed around humanity's needs.  But computers are still in their
infancy and cannot tell the difference between a user making a wrong
choice and a user purposefully making a choice that appears to be wrong.

:   I remain steadfast in my opinion that automatically replying to the
: list is a much more natural option. 

Again, you're asking the computer to make a guess based on insufficient
data.  The headers from every php-general message contain information
indicating that the email comes from a mailing list.  When a mail client
receives this email, it should be able to distinguish it as a list email
instead of some other random email.  If the mail client cannot perform
this simple task, then it is up to the end user to do so, and to reply
appropriately.  If the user refuses to perform the task, the burden is
on the user to properly configure the mail client or switch to a mail
client that can do it.

Don't tweak the content to work with your broken client software.

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Jay Blanchard]

[snip]
If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better mail client
that supports mailing lists, your problem would be solved.
[/snip]

As has been said several times, not all can do this.

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Curt Zirzow]

* Thus wrote Thomas Svenson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 Hi,
 
 It would be nice if the moderator of this, and the other PHP-lists could fix
 so the listserver automatically add a Reply-To header to all the mails.
 
 When I hit Reply my message would then automatically reply to the list and
 not the author. Less hassle for me when replying and less risk of forgetting
 it.

This is simply impossible.  This list is propagated to places other
than the mailing list (ie. news.php.net)


Curt
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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Roger B.A. Klorese]

 This is simply impossible.  This list is propagated to places other
 than the mailing list (ie. news.php.net)

So?  What negative impact would a Reply-To: header have on a newsgroup?  It
doesn't affect followups...

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Comex]

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dave G:
   This is, I suppose, a completely off topic thread. However, I just
 read the web page
 http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
 and I was completely unconvinced.

Yes, I do use OE which is completely broken.  And no I don't have to.  Oh
well.  I still agree with that web page, and while I was partly convincedd
that reply-to should be added that page really changed my mind.  In OE, to
break the reply-to rule - it's called reply-to.  That means you're supposed
to reply to that. - I must manually copy and paste the headers.  Of course,
I use the news server anyway so this doesn't apply to me.  But even so.
-- 
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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Thomas Svenson]

   It Adds Nothing is absolutely false. Being able to automatically
 respond to the list adds more naturally expected behaviour.
   I remain steadfast in my opinion that automatically replying to the
 list is a much more natural option.

My opinion is that this is a multi person discussion forum, not a person to
person forum. I get the messages from the php-general list, not from any
individuals here. I reply to the list, not to the individuals. If I post a
message I expect replies to come from the list so everyone can read them and
fill in their comments. I don't see the point of answering questions posted
on the list privately since it then, IMHO, breaks the purpose of the list.

I read and learn many things just following the discussions on the list.
Many times it means I don't have to post a similar question since I already
found the answer. Topics I know that will help me in the future I save so I
don't have to add noise to the list.

I have got several private replies to posts on the PHP lists that I am sure
was intended to be posted to the list and not privately to me. If I need to
follow up on it I post I back to the list, but then I have to quote most of
the comments I got since no one else on the list have seen them.

Another benefit by having the Reply-To rewritten to the list address is that
I then wont have to get x number of auto replies from mail servers informing
me that the receivers mailbox is full. Posting to this list generates about
3-5 such messages at the moment. When I posted to the install list I got
10++ such messages and other shit that I don't want.

A properly configured list would easily filter this out and I would never
see them.

I am not demanding this to be changed. These lists are important enough for
me to live with these problems. I would be very grateful though if the
moderator(s) decided it would be a good idea to make this change.

/T

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Thomas Svenson]

 If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better mail client
 that supports mailing lists, your problem would be solved.

I wouldn't mind that at all. What clients do you recommend for WindwosXP? I
want a small client (note: I have to use Outlook for business purposes, but
have the lists on a separate account).

/T

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[David T-G]

Chris, et al --

...and then Chris W. Parker said...
% 
% Eugene Lee mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
% on Tuesday, November 25, 2003 12:47 PM said:
% 
%  If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better mail client
%  that supports mailing lists, your problem would be solved.
% 
% The problem with your theory is that some of us are in corporate
% environments where personal email is not allowed and therefore a
% separate client would not work. And we especially cannot abandon Outlook

If your reading the list is personal and that's not allowed, don't look
for sympathy from me, especially when it involves breaking the list.

If, on the other hand, your reading the list is professional, then make
the case for being allowed to use webmail or TheBAT! or mutt or whatever
even if only for reading this mailing list (but pretty much all lists
could benefit).


% because afaik there are no other email clients that can talk to Exchange
% as well as Outlook can.

And that's a benefit? *snicker*


% 
% Chris.
% --
% Don't like reformatting your Outlook replies? Now there's relief!
% http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/

This wouldn't even be necessary if Outlook weren't broken in so many
ways.  It further makes the case against it!


HAND

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Eugene Lee]

On Tue, Nov 25, 2003 at 10:27:10PM -, Thomas Svenson wrote:
: Eugene Lee suggested:
: 
:  If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better mail client
:  that supports mailing lists, your problem would be solved.
: 
: I wouldn't mind that at all. What clients do you recommend for
: WindwosXP? I want a small client (note: I have to use Outlook for
: business purposes, but have the lists on a separate account).

Personally, I use Mutt.  It's a console-style mail client with roots in
Unix, but it also run on Windoze via Cygwin and a SourceForget port:

http://www.cygwin.com/

https://sourceforge.net/projects/unixmail-w32/

Have you tried other popular mail clients like those from Eudora or even
Netscape/Mozilla?

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Roger B.A. Klorese]

 Have you tried other popular mail clients like those from Eudora or even
 Netscape/Mozilla?

Neither Eudora nor Mozilla support RFC2369 headers.

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Adam i Agnieszka Gasiorowski FNORD]

Thomas Svenson wrote:
 
  If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better mail client
  that supports mailing lists, your problem would be solved.
 
 I wouldn't mind that at all. What clients do you recommend for WindwosXP? I
 want a small client (note: I have to use Outlook for business purposes, but
 have the lists on a separate account).

Try the Opera's 7 M2 (build-in revolutionary
 email and news client).

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[John W. Holmes]

Adam i Agnieszka Gasiorowski FNORD wrote:

Thomas Svenson wrote:
If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better mail client
that supports mailing lists, your problem would be solved.
I wouldn't mind that at all. What clients do you recommend for WindwosXP? I
want a small client (note: I have to use Outlook for business purposes, but
have the lists on a separate account).
Try the Opera's 7 M2 (build-in revolutionary
 email and news client).
Is this an advertisement or does it actually have the features everyone 
is looking for?

And, umm... PHP in Opera looks great. ;)

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[- Edwin -]

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 02:51:58 +0900
Dave G [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   This is, I suppose, a completely off topic thread.
   However, I just
 read the web page
 http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

That's great!

 and I was completely unconvinced.

:(

...[snipped]...


   I remain steadfast in my opinion that automatically
   replying to the
 list is a much more natural option. 

Have you read this?

 
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalm=106978016132054w=2

Or, better yet, this?

 
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalm=106978623207586w=2

And, what is your opinion regarding Reply All?

- E -
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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[- Edwin -]

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:18:01 -
Thomas Svenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

...[snipped]...

 I am not demanding this to be changed. These lists are
 important enough for me to live with these problems. I
 would be very grateful though if the moderator(s) decided
 it would be a good idea to make this change.

Translation: ...it would be a good idea to do things the
incorrect way.

What's the problem with the Reply All button?

Have you read this?

 
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalm=106978623207586w=2

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[- Edwin -]

Hi,

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 19:10:12 -0500
John W. Holmes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Adam i Agnieszka Gasiorowski FNORD wrote:
 
  Thomas Svenson wrote:
 If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a
 better mail clientthat supports mailing lists, your
 problem would be solved.
 I wouldn't mind that at all. What clients do you
 recommend for WindwosXP? Iwant a small client (note: I
 have to use Outlook for business purposes, buthave the
 lists on a separate account).
  
  Try the Opera's 7 M2 (build-in revolutionary
   email and news client).
 
 Is this an advertisement or does it actually have the
 features everyone is looking for?

I'm using the browser but not the email and news client so
I'm not sure but I just came across this: (Pls. check under
subheading Mailing lists.)

 
http://www.opera.com/support/tutorials/opera/m2/folders/?test=pop

 And, umm... PHP in Opera looks great. ;)

:)

- E -
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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Roger B.A. Klorese]

 I'm using the browser but not the email and news client so
 I'm not sure but I just came across this: (Pls. check under
 subheading Mailing lists.)
 
  
http://www.opera.com/support/tutorials/opera/m2/folders/?test=pop

 And, umm... PHP in Opera looks great. ;)

Yes, but:
- the IMAP implementation is minimal at best
- they don't implement any List-* capability *except* for categorization --
no reply-to-list or help or subscribe/unsubscribe

I installed it, was underwowed by the second issue above, and removed it
after five minutes because of the first.

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[- Edwin -]

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:55:15 -0500
Glenn E. Sieb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  From: Eugene Lee [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 
  If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better
  
  mail client that supports mailing lists, your problem
  would be solved.
 
 Amusing--I've used Eudora.. I've used Mozilla.. I've used
 Netscape.. I don't see that behaviour in any of those. So,
 care to tell us which M$-Windows mail program supports
 this?

Try Opera. (http://www.opera.com/)

 
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalm=106980989504857w=2

(But I believe Mozilla or Netscape supports threading so it's
still *nicer* to use than Outlook [Express].)

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PS
Sorry about the date in my other posts...
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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[- Edwin -]

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:21:22 -0600
Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 [snip]
 If you would stop using M$ Outlook and switch to a better
 mail client that supports mailing lists, your problem would
 be solved.[/snip]
 
 As has been said several times, not all can do this.

True. But maybe instead of *switching* they can just use
*another* mail client for mailing lists? ;)

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Thomas Svenson]

- Edwin - wrote:

 What's the problem with the Reply All button?

One problem is that people, like you did now, forget to delete the non list
address. That makes me get two mail with the exact same content - one from
the list and another directly to me. That is very irritating.

/T

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Roger B.A. Klorese]

 One problem is that people, like you did now, forget to 
 delete the non list
 address. That makes me get two mail with the exact same 
 content - one from
 the list and another directly to me. That is very irritating.

To you, irritating.

To me, preferable -- one copy, the list one, goes into my list folder to be
filed away, and the other stays in my inbox so I see discussions I'm
participating in without having to read all of the traffic.

A decent list manager would be configurable to let you say whether or not
you should be sent a list copy if you're already in the headers for a
personal copy -- putting the burden where it belongs, on the software, and
the choice where it belongs, with you (one way) and me (the other).

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[- Edwin -]

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:49:09 -
Thomas Svenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 - Edwin - wrote:
 
  What's the problem with the Reply All button?
 
 One problem is that people, like you did now, forget to
 delete the non list address.

Hehe... I did NOT forget--that was deliberate.

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalm=105700977431019w=2

 That makes me get two mail
 with the exact same content - one from the list and another
 directly to me. That is very irritating.

Why, can't you use/configure it (your mail/news client) to
delete duplicated messages? Mine can ;)

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[John W. Holmes]

Roger B.A. Klorese wrote:

To me, preferable -- one copy, the list one, goes into my list folder to be
filed away, and the other stays in my inbox so I see discussions I'm
participating in without having to read all of the traffic.
Preferable for me, also. I have messages sent directly to me colored 
differently from the ones on the list, so I can keep track of threads 
I've replied in or threads that have been taken off list (so they don't 
get lost in the rest of the traffic).

Ummm, and they all have PHP in the subject...

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Dan Joseph]

Hi,

True. But maybe instead of *switching* they can just use
*another* mail client for mailing lists? ;)

Unfortunately not everyone has this luxury.

-Dan Joseph

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RE: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[Nigel Jones]

Ok lets put it this way...

There is LESS chance that a reply should be directed to X user than to the
whole list

If I want to CC something to the writer then let me but 99%(all together) of
Mailing List Posts are directed to the actual List.

Also why do we have to change clients? We have a FREEDOM of CHOICE

If messing with the Reply-To headers then why does the NZPHPUG do it?
([EMAIL PROTECTED])

Maybe we should consider a change or have a list like Digest(or whatever it
is) where the Reply-To header is 'mugged'

My 2 cents



_
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[David T-G]

Thomas --

...and then Thomas Svenson said...
% 
% One problem is that people, like you did now, forget to delete the non list
% address. That makes me get two mail with the exact same content - one from
% the list and another directly to me. That is very irritating.

Sorry that I can't be of much help to you there, but if you can't
configure your mail program to set a proper Mail-Followup-To: header or
your filtering to delete duplicates as part of the sorting then you
really aren't using a very good mail program or filter, are you?


% 
% /T


HAND

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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[David T-G]

Glenn, et al --

...and then Glenn E. Sieb said...
% 
% Amusing--I've used Eudora.. I've used Mozilla.. I've used Netscape.. I don't see 
that behaviour in any of those. So, care to tell us which M$-Windows mail program 
supports this?

I admit that you have me at a disadvantage; I don't use Windows for my
mail and have no idea what mail programs are available, much less worth
trying.  I would have to recommend mutt anyway because there's nothing
that can beat it; it's available under the Cygwin port (at least).


% 
% Thanks,
% Glenn


HTH  HAND

:-D
-- 
David T-G  * There is too much animal courage in 
(play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * society and not sufficient moral courage.
(work) [EMAIL PROTECTED]  -- Mary Baker Eddy, Science and Health
http://justpickone.org/davidtg/  Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg!



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Re: [PHP] Add Reply-To to this list(s)

[- Edwin -]

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:27:50 -0800
Roger B.A. Klorese [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  I'm using the browser but not the email and news client
  so I'm not sure but I just came across this: (Pls. check
  under subheading Mailing lists.)
  
   
 http://www.opera.com/support/tutorials/opera/m2/folders/?test=pop
 
  And, umm... PHP in Opera looks great. ;)
 
 Yes, but:
 - the IMAP implementation is minimal at best
 - they don't implement any List-* capability *except* for
 categorization -- no reply-to-list or help or
 subscribe/unsubscribe
 
 I installed it, was underwowed by the second issue above,
 and removed it after five minutes because of the first.

Aha! Okay, then, I recommend this:

  http://www.justsystem.co.jp/shuriken/pro3/

It addresses (I believe) all the problems you mentioned
above. It just add one new problem--it's all in Japanese!
;)

Um, okay, the above is a suggestion to those who are looking
for an excellent Japanese mail client... :)

- E -
__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! BB is Broadband by Yahoo!
http://bb.yahoo.co.jp/

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