RE: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
-Message d'origine- De : Jochem Maas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Envoyé : mardi 17 avril 2007 16:19 À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc : Robert Cummings; Tim; 'Jarrel Cobb'; 'tedd'; php-general@lists.php.net Objet : Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer! Richard Lynch wrote: On Fri, April 13, 2007 8:14 pm, Robert Cummings wrote: peacepipe in one hand, broadsword in the other - lets hack on :-) ***BIG SMILE*** And WHAT are you smiling at??? Staves beat peacepipes and broadswords anyday! Maybe he's smiling because of what's IN his peacepipe... :-) Does this shock you? That was my assumption when I first read it... But maybe I've just hung out with too many stoner musicians... :-v Just musicians? ;P ... huh? ... what? ... do somebody say something? ;-) I didn't think you could fit peacepipe and broadsword in the same sentence... I geuss so... :P -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
Richard Lynch wrote: On Fri, April 13, 2007 8:14 pm, Robert Cummings wrote: peacepipe in one hand, broadsword in the other - lets hack on :-) ***BIG SMILE*** And WHAT are you smiling at??? Staves beat peacepipes and broadswords anyday! Maybe he's smiling because of what's IN his peacepipe... :-) That was my assumption when I first read it... But maybe I've just hung out with too many stoner musicians... :-v ... huh? ... what? ... do somebody say something? ;-) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
I'm not looking for a response... but this thread that opened up several days ago would now considered to be OT. Maybe take it offline? :) The ironic thing... when I put [OT] in the subject line, the list rejected it. This is the 2nd attempt. So, the moral is to talk about whatever the hell you want and just don't say it's off topic. On Apr 17, 2007, at 9:28 AM, Tim wrote: -Message d'origine- De : Jochem Maas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Envoyé : mardi 17 avril 2007 16:19 À : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc : Robert Cummings; Tim; 'Jarrel Cobb'; 'tedd'; php-general@lists.php.net Objet : Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer! Richard Lynch wrote: On Fri, April 13, 2007 8:14 pm, Robert Cummings wrote: peacepipe in one hand, broadsword in the other - lets hack on :-) ***BIG SMILE*** And WHAT are you smiling at??? Staves beat peacepipes and broadswords anyday! Maybe he's smiling because of what's IN his peacepipe... :-) Does this shock you? That was my assumption when I first read it... But maybe I've just hung out with too many stoner musicians... :-v Just musicians? ;P ... huh? ... what? ... do somebody say something? ;-) I didn't think you could fit peacepipe and broadsword in the same sentence... I geuss so... :P -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Tue, April 17, 2007 9:28 am, Tim wrote: That was my assumption when I first read it... But maybe I've just hung out with too many stoner musicians... :-v Just musicians? ;P In my personal experience, yes, just musicians... I know a LOT of musicians, though, so it's a skewed data sample. -- Some people have a gift link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Sat, April 14, 2007 9:35 am, tedd wrote: For example, we all use pint_r() to show us what values our variables hold -- it helps in debugging. The same goes for css, try using the rule border: 1px solid red; the next time you're wondering about why something isn't placed where you want it. Once you see where/how everything fits together, it's simple to fix it. I do border: 1px solid red; all the time. Often, it tells me what to type in CSS to make my div be somewhere else from where it is. But it RARELY actually makes any sense at all to me why I had to type what I had to type in CSS -- I just tweak the damn thing into place in the way that seems to work and move on with life. Reminds me of Hypercard, sort of... I read all the docs, and yet it still doesn't really make sense why one syntax does NOT do what I expect, and another that seems to me like it should do something else entirely is what actually works in practice. Very very frustrating, and does not give me any confidence in CSS as something I'll want to use long-term, even if MS ever plays nicely enough to make the CSS zealots happy. I love the ideals espoused by CSS -- The actual implementation of the syntax and what I end up seeing the browser based on what I type and the pain I have to go through to get things to be where I want them to be, however, leaves a great deal to be desired. -- Some people have a gift link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Fri, April 13, 2007 8:14 pm, Robert Cummings wrote: peacepipe in one hand, broadsword in the other - lets hack on :-) ***BIG SMILE*** And WHAT are you smiling at??? Staves beat peacepipes and broadswords anyday! Maybe he's smiling because of what's IN his peacepipe... :-) That was my assumption when I first read it... But maybe I've just hung out with too many stoner musicians... :-v -- Some people have a gift link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
At 3:27 PM -0400 4/14/07, Robert Cummings wrote: Statistics are easy to find: http://www.frontpagewebmaster.com/m-281187/tm.htm#281187 Okay, so read them. I did just before I posted the link :) In the first post you'll find (from my old college CSUN) this: http://www.imtc.gatech.edu/csun/stats.html It states that 19.4 percent of the population is disabled -- that's about twenty times the number you cited. I just want to clarify a point, you previously said that less than 1% of the population is disabled and then to support your claim you provide a link that says something different. Instead, the link quotes a figure twenty times your estimation, so what is your claim? Is the percent of disabled one or twenty? Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 08:23 -0400, tedd wrote: At 3:27 PM -0400 4/14/07, Robert Cummings wrote: Statistics are easy to find: http://www.frontpagewebmaster.com/m-281187/tm.htm#281187 Okay, so read them. I did just before I posted the link :) In the first post you'll find (from my old college CSUN) this: http://www.imtc.gatech.edu/csun/stats.html It states that 19.4 percent of the population is disabled -- that's about twenty times the number you cited. I just want to clarify a point, you previously said that less than 1% of the population is disabled and then to support your claim you provide a link that says something different. Instead, the link quotes a figure twenty times your estimation, so what is your claim? Is the percent of disabled one or twenty? I didn't provide a link to support my claim, I provided a link to prove how easy it was to find statistics. That my 1% asstistic was wrong was not surprising; however, your claim is not quite right either since the value of 19.4% is a value for all disabilities, not just ones that benefit from visual issues. The actual number of visual disabilities I believe was around a third of the given number, so closer to 6.5%-- I would increase that a bit for mental disabilities that may make processing of information more difficult. That said, I live in Canada, our disability numbers are around 12% versus the US 19.4%. So, there is marked difference between countries. So to set the record straight, I wasn't claiming anything and neither of our asstistics were correct :) Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
Stut wrote: Richard Lynch wrote: On Fri, April 13, 2007 1:20 am, Stut wrote: tedd wrote: this ain't the bad old days. That's debatable! Damnit! Now I've got that These are the good ol' days song stuck in my head, and it's your fault! :-) Hey, don't forget that you should always look on the bright side of life. -Stut Oh, that is so low... You evil b_d :-) Cheers -- David Robley Catscan: searching for kitty. Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 31st day of Discord in the YOLD 3173. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
At 9:07 PM -0400 4/13/07, Robert Cummings wrote: I noticed your site isn't a pixel perfect layout. Probably why you haven't had to tear at your face very hard with CSS :) That whole box-model issue becomes a great deal more elastic when you have some fudge room. Rob: My site (http://sperling.com) is designed to optimize the area provided it by the browser/user. I realize that the web is not traditional print and I am attempting to find the best way to present content in this medium. I have done pixel perfect web pages for clients where they show me a Photoshop image and say That's the way we want it to look in all browsers AND we don't want tables. That's what absolute position is used for. There isn't a Photoshop image that anyone can show me that I can't make a pixel perfect AND compliant web site out of using css. As for the box-model issue, I've faced that, such as in: http://www.symboldomains.com/ While the site is a bit dated (first release in 2003), it still holds together. The placement of the border handles IE's difficulty in understanding the box model (just where does M$ get these browser developers?). For more typical sites, may I present my past life: http://www.geophysics.com/ I've been putting up web sites for the last ten years. I went through the table phase a few years back and I haven't had a reason to go back. Like documentation and semantic makeup, it just makes sense. In short, I am a recovering tableholic, but I've been table independent for five years, eight months, and seven days. --- You've got me wrong, I don't want to stick with tables, I want to use the full power of CSS, but unfortunately Microsoft has seen fit to screw everything up as much as possible. Yes, there is always difficulty in the world, but realize that we prosper from it. If web stuff was easy, then everyone would be doing it correctly. --- but if you are as well versed as I am in CSS, then you know that using tables for layout is more costly in overall development, maintenance, sales, and accessibility. To me and my clients, those things matter. I agree with accessibility to some degree, but for the rest I think you're a bit too far out on a limb. To me, being disabled, accessibility is paramount. Granted I don't always live up to my mouth, but I try and that's the point. As for the rest of my claim, my experience is that css reduces cost for over all development -- it takes *me* less time to develop an entire site using css than using tables. Site maintenance is certainly easier -- no reason to dwell on the obvious. Sales are better for several reason: a) accessibility brings up-to another 12 percent more customers to the table; b) sites built with css load faster bringing more people; c) better SEO considerations brings even more people; d) faster site alteration to cycle products allows more exposure and makes for a more interesting sites, which brings back even more people. The whole point of making a web site is to sell something -- ether a product, a service, an opinion, yourself, or whatever. The larger the audience, the more successful you will be. Using css brings in more people. --- Concepts like separating content from presentation, graceful degradation and progressive enhancement are not just phrases one imagined so they could sit on a glass pedestal and look down on everyone else. They are practices that work and are far more reaching than WYSIWYG table layouts. Agreed, I practice all of the above, but I feel no guilt in using a table for a layout when it simplifies the issue. Between box model issues, float bugs, etc etc, CSS just can't do what needs to be done yet. On this we disagree. I have found nothing that tables can do that I can't do with css AND do it more effectively and efficiently. The box-model problem and float considerations can be easily dealt with IF you truly understand the problem they present. There are things you can use to illustrate the problems just like in php. For example, we all use pint_r() to show us what values our variables hold -- it helps in debugging. The same goes for css, try using the rule border: 1px solid red; the next time you're wondering about why something isn't placed where you want it. Once you see where/how everything fits together, it's simple to fix it. Look, you're a competent programmer and php is far more complex than css will ever be. You're doing yourself a disservice by letting simple stumbling blocks deter you from using css because you have a misconception that css isn't ready yet, because it is. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Sat, 2007-04-14 at 10:35 -0400, tedd wrote: At 9:07 PM -0400 4/13/07, Robert Cummings wrote: I noticed your site isn't a pixel perfect layout. Probably why you haven't had to tear at your face very hard with CSS :) That whole box-model issue becomes a great deal more elastic when you have some fudge room. Rob: My site (http://sperling.com) is designed to optimize the area provided it by the browser/user. I realize that the web is not traditional print and I am attempting to find the best way to present content in this medium. I have done pixel perfect web pages for clients where they show me a Photoshop image and say That's the way we want it to look in all browsers AND we don't want tables. That's what absolute position is used for. There isn't a Photoshop image that anyone can show me that I can't make a pixel perfect AND compliant web site out of using css. Who said pixel perfect image? Absolute pixel perfection is easy as you've mentioned. Now make pixel perfect stretchy pages where the widths expand to fill the available horizontal and heights expand to fill the available vertical. As for the box-model issue, I've faced that, such as in: http://www.symboldomains.com/ This is a simplistice layout. It doesn't have the same issues as 3 column layouts. Also, you are using CSS hacks... just as bad as tables IMHO. While the site is a bit dated (first release in 2003), it still holds together. The placement of the border handles IE's difficulty in understanding the box model (just where does M$ get these browser developers?). For more typical sites, may I present my past life: http://www.geophysics.com/ Again, a simplistic layout... with CSS hacks. I've been putting up web sites for the last ten years. I went through the table phase a few years back and I haven't had a reason to go back. Like documentation and semantic makeup, it just makes sense. In short, I am a recovering tableholic, but I've been table independent for five years, eight months, and seven days. I know how to do layouts without tables, but not without resorting to hacks, or not getting pixel perfection a stretchy design. I'm am well aware of CSS. I am not a table-aholic, I am a pragmatist. You've got me wrong, I don't want to stick with tables, I want to use the full power of CSS, but unfortunately Microsoft has seen fit to screw everything up as much as possible. Yes, there is always difficulty in the world, but realize that we prosper from it. If web stuff was easy, then everyone would be doing it correctly. Correctly is a moving target... shouldn't you be moving away from HTML4.01 strict to XHTML already? ;) but if you are as well versed as I am in CSS, then you know that using tables for layout is more costly in overall development, maintenance, sales, and accessibility. To me and my clients, those things matter. I agree with accessibility to some degree, but for the rest I think you're a bit too far out on a limb. To me, being disabled, accessibility is paramount. Granted I don't always live up to my mouth, but I try and that's the point. To me, undisabled as I am, accessibility is important, but what's important to me, isn't always important to my paying customers. There's a middle ground between accessibility, time, and cost. As for the rest of my claim, my experience is that css reduces cost for over all development -- it takes *me* less time to develop an entire site using css than using tables. Site maintenance is certainly easier -- no reason to dwell on the obvious. Sales are better for several reason: a) accessibility brings up-to another 12 percent more customers to the table; b) sites built with css load faster bringing more people; c) better SEO considerations brings even more people; d) faster site alteration to cycle products allows more exposure and makes for a more interesting sites, which brings back even more people. Are you implied 12% of the population visiting websites are disabled in such a way as to benefit from CSS? That's seems a tad high. Maybe 1%... if that. The whole point of making a web site is to sell something -- ether a product, a service, an opinion, yourself, or whatever. The larger the audience, the more successful you will be. Using css brings in more people. Please back up that claim with real statistics. --- Concepts like separating content from presentation, graceful degradation and progressive enhancement are not just phrases one imagined so they could sit on a glass pedestal and look down on everyone else. They are practices that work and are far more reaching than WYSIWYG table layouts. Agreed, I practice all of the above, but I feel no guilt in using a table for a layout when it simplifies the issue. Between box model issues, float bugs, etc etc, CSS just can't do what needs to be done yet. On this we disagree. I have found nothing
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Apr 13, 2007, at 8:07 PM, Robert Cummings wrote: [snip] I noticed your site isn't a pixel perfect layout. Probably why you haven't had to tear at your face very hard with CSS :) That whole box-model issue becomes a great deal more elastic when you have some fudge room. [snip] I use my templating engine, I can wrap as many tags as I please into a compound custom tag with attributes that expand into the dirty details. This also provides a great deal of flexibility later when CSS support improves, to replace the dirty tables ;) I do prefer CSS, but having done pixel perfect layouts, I know where things break down. rant And here-in lies the problem with most web designers/coders who think they *have* to have tables... Pixel perfect layouts are *not* what the web is about. A browser window is not a piece of paper and until web designers get that through their heads then we will all have trouble making things work. No matter what the browser makers do. Designers need to start designing for the medium and not for what they want the medium to be, or what medium fits their knowledge base or familiar problem space. You don't have to have that much control over a web page... loosen up a bit and let things be what they are. /rant Sorry, that just builds up over time and needs to be let out every once in a while Ed -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Apr 14, 2007, at 10:37 AM, Robert Cummings wrote: On Sat, 2007-04-14 at 10:14 -0500, Edward Vermillion wrote: On Apr 13, 2007, at 8:07 PM, Robert Cummings wrote: [snip] I noticed your site isn't a pixel perfect layout. Probably why you haven't had to tear at your face very hard with CSS :) That whole box-model issue becomes a great deal more elastic when you have some fudge room. [snip] I use my templating engine, I can wrap as many tags as I please into a compound custom tag with attributes that expand into the dirty details. This also provides a great deal of flexibility later when CSS support improves, to replace the dirty tables ;) I do prefer CSS, but having done pixel perfect layouts, I know where things break down. rant And here-in lies the problem with most web designers/coders who think they *have* to have tables... Pixel perfect layouts are *not* what the web is about. A browser window is not a piece of paper and until web designers get that through their heads then we will all have trouble making things work. No matter what the browser makers do. Designers need to start designing for the medium and not for what they want the medium to be, or what medium fits their knowledge base or familiar problem space. You don't have to have that much control over a web page... loosen up a bit and let things be what they are. /rant Sorry, that just builds up over time and needs to be let out every once in a while Sure, but designers head the beck and call of paying customers. Just like we coders do. Sometime you just can't win the argument with a suit :) Yeah I know... thus the bottled up frustrations... ;) BTW, why can't a browser window be pixel perfect? I think you're dwelling on what you think it should be, and what others want it to be. The more interactive the web becomes, the more we see web applications mimicking desktop solutions, the more we need pixel perfection. Regardless of whether you think the web should be used for these kinds of applications is irrelevant, because others do think it can and should be used in this way. Throwing cups of water back into the ocean to prevent the tide from coming in just doesn't work. I think there's a fundamental difference between a web application and a web page. (That's another one of those areas where folks expect what they shouldn't. Like a web application must adhere to the web paradigm and ensure the back button retains it's meaning throughout the applications processes, even though there's no real back concept to an application.) I'm really finding that the older I get, and the more my eyesight diminishes, the more websites I just don't go to or that I have to fight with if I *have* to get some info from them, just because the designer wasn't designing for the web. But eh, we all do what we have to to get the pay check sometimes... Ed -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Sat, 2007-04-14 at 11:28 -0500, Edward Vermillion wrote: I think there's a fundamental difference between a web application and a web page. (That's another one of those areas where folks expect what they shouldn't. Like a web application must adhere to the web paradigm and ensure the back button retains it's meaning throughout the applications processes, even though there's no real back concept to an application.) I'm really finding that the older I get, and the more my eyesight diminishes, the more websites I just don't go to or that I have to fight with if I *have* to get some info from them, just because the designer wasn't designing for the web. But eh, we all do what we have to to get the pay check sometimes... I can understand where you're coming from, but to draw the line further back, are you also suggesting we remove images, flash, applets, javascript? These things didn't exist when the web was born... The web evolved and in so doing opened up new opportunities. Web applications that don't work like conventional pages are merely another step in the Web's evolution. I'm not going to call it Web 2.0 or Web 3.0 or any other dumb branding gibberish, but truth be told, the web is still evolving into what visionaries see for its potential. Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
At 11:12 AM -0400 4/14/07, Robert Cummings wrote: At 9:07 PM -0400 4/13/07, Robert Cummings wrote: I noticed your site isn't a pixel perfect layout. Who said pixel perfect image? You did -- pixel perfect image or pixel perfect layout, what's the difference? Now make pixel perfect stretchy pages where the widths expand to fill the available horizontal and heights expand to fill the available vertical. Now, you introduce a pixel perfect stretchy term -- is this one of those moving targets where no one can provide a solution because the target keeps moving? Just show me an example where you can do your pixel perfect stretchy thing with tables that can't be done by css. --- As for the box-model issue, I've faced that, such as in: http://www.symboldomains.com/ This is a simplistice layout. It doesn't have the same issues as 3 column layouts. You want three column layouts, there's plenty around. See: http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ThreeColumnLayouts Or just Google three column layout. It seems that others don't have the problems with it as you do. --- Also, you are using CSS hacks... just as bad as tables IMHO. A couple of points: 1. If it's *just* as bad, then why not use the one that's at least accessible? 2. If you're against using hacks, then you're sounding like one of those sitting on your glass pedestal better than thou types you accused me of being. Table supporters can't have it both ways. On hand some say that they are above using hacks and on the other hand they say it's OK to use tables. Tables were never designed for that and using them that way is a hack -- plain and simple! If you want to use tables, that's fine -- but don't suggest that one of your reasons is that you are above using hacks. --- Correctly is a moving target... shouldn't you be moving away from HTML4.01 strict to XHTML already? ;) Maybe, but what I do is still compliant. --- Are you implied 12% of the population visiting websites are disabled in such a way as to benefit from CSS? That's seems a tad high. Maybe 1%... if that. Aging seniors are in that group (myself included) -- you think that we are less than 1 percent of the population? I think not. As my baby-boomer group continues, the problem will become even more so. Additionally, I think you grossly underestimate the number of people who have disability related problems with sites, that's unfortunate, but typical for people who don't. --- The whole point of making a web site is to sell something -- ether a product, a service, an opinion, yourself, or whatever. The larger the audience, the more successful you will be. Using css brings in more people. Please back up that claim with real statistics. Likewise, back up your claim otherwise with real statistics. As you know there are no real statistics and that's a red herring. --- On this we disagree. I have found nothing that tables can do that I can't do with css AND do it more effectively and efficiently. Yes, I disagree, I trust that I'm far more productive to than you *grin*. You probably are -- and that's why you get paid the big bucks. But, I trust that I am more compliant than you. :-) --- The box-model problem and float considerations can be easily dealt with IF you truly understand the problem they present. There are things you can use to illustrate the problems just like in php. Awww, see now you're trying to talk down to me as if I'm new to CSS. My apologies -- it was not my intent to talk down to you, but to simply state a fact. Awww, you really are treating me like an idiot now *lol*. I'm well aware of using borders to reveal where things are. Again, my apologies I'm not trying to treat you like an idiot -- there are other people reading this list and I don't want them to get the misconception you promote that css is flawed and tables are the only solution. In any event, we have beat this to death -- you have your practice and I have mine. As always, there is more than one way to do anything. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
At 11:37 AM -0400 4/14/07, Robert Cummings wrote: Sure, but designers head the beck and call of paying customers. Just like we coders do. Sometime you just can't win the argument with a suit :) I didn't know you wore a suit. :-) --- BTW, why can't a browser window be pixel perfect? What's pixel perfect? --- The more interactive the web becomes, the more we see web applications mimicking desktop solutions, On that we agree -- however, desktop solutions are being influenced by web and vice versa. This is a dynamic process where ideas, needs, and solutions merge and continue to change. But don't think that current desktop solutions are the end-all of all application development. I remember when DOS types claimed that using a mouse would never catch on. Everything is changing. --- Regardless of whether you think the web should be used for these kinds of applications is irrelevant, because others do think it can and should be used in this way. Nonsense. What he thinks, what I think, and what you think does influence change. You certainly don't have all the answers and neither do I, but our dialog, our practice, our methods, our post, do provide direction and example. What's the point of this dialog anyway -- to amuse ourselves? No offense, but I would rather be playing Ghost Recon than debating this issue with you. I do this because I believe that this is the right way to educate and to give back for those who helped, and continue to help, me. --- Throwing cups of water back into the ocean to prevent the tide from coming in just doesn't work. But, it sure helps to keep your boat afloat. :-) Besides, what tide are you talking about, the css tide? Everyday, via my attendance to the css-discuss list, I would estimate that there are more people coming on board the css boat than choosing tables. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
At 12:37 PM -0400 4/14/07, Robert Cummings wrote: but truth be told, the web is still evolving into what visionaries see for its potential. Agreed, but some are reluctant to listen to visionaries. :-) Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Sat, 2007-04-14 at 13:57 -0400, tedd wrote: At 11:12 AM -0400 4/14/07, Robert Cummings wrote: At 9:07 PM -0400 4/13/07, Robert Cummings wrote: I noticed your site isn't a pixel perfect layout. Who said pixel perfect image? You did -- pixel perfect image or pixel perfect layout, what's the difference? Now make pixel perfect stretchy pages where the widths expand to fill the available horizontal and heights expand to fill the available vertical. Now, you introduce a pixel perfect stretchy term -- is this one of those moving targets where no one can provide a solution because the target keeps moving? A stretchy website stretches it's content area to accomodate the width of the browser. I'm quite sure you knew this, either that, or you're not reading enough. Just show me an example where you can do your pixel perfect stretchy thing with tables that can't be done by css. Sorry, I do most of my work behind intranet firewalls. But see my remarks below... --- As for the box-model issue, I've faced that, such as in: http://www.symboldomains.com/ This is a simplistice layout. It doesn't have the same issues as 3 column layouts. You want three column layouts, there's plenty around. See: http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ThreeColumnLayouts They ALL use some kind of hack or are not stretchy. Or just Google three column layout. It seems that others don't have the problems with it as you do. --- Also, you are using CSS hacks... just as bad as tables IMHO. A couple of points: 1. If it's *just* as bad, then why not use the one that's at least accessible? There's a future cost to using hacks when the hacks no longer work... this should be apparent to all those that used IE hacks and then suddenly in IE7 only some worked, or only partially worked. 2. If you're against using hacks, then you're sounding like one of those sitting on your glass pedestal better than thou types you accused me of being. Leveraging the effects of a bug is not a foundation upon which to build anything. The web was practically built on tables to begin with, so the foundations are already strong in that arena. Table supporters can't have it both ways. On hand some say that they are above using hacks and on the other hand they say it's OK to use tables. Tables were never designed for that and using them that way is a hack -- plain and simple! At one point, the only way to layout content was using tables. CSS didn't exist at that time, plain and simple. Besides... there's this from the W3C accessibility guidelines: 5.2 Tables for layout Checkpoints in this section: 5.3 Do not use tables for layout unless the table makes sense when linearized. Otherwise, if the table does not make sense, provide an alternative equivalent (which may be a linearized version). [Priority 2] 5.4 If a table is used for layout, do not use any structural markup for the purpose of visual formatting. [Priority 2] Authors should use style sheets for layout and positioning. However, when it is necessary to use a table for layout, the table must linearize in a readable order. When a table is linearized, the contents of the cells become a series of paragraphs (e.g., down the page) one after another. Cells should make sense when read in row order and should include structural elements (that create paragraphs, headings, lists, etc.) so the page makes sense after linearization. Also, when using tables to create a layout, do not use structural markup to create visual formatting. For example, the TH (table header) element, is usually displayed visually as centered, and bold. If a cell is not actually a header for a row or column of data, use style sheets or formatting attributes of the element. They allow for the use of tables, and I follow that convention. I currently feel it is necessary at times to use tables. If you want to use tables, that's fine -- but don't suggest that one of your reasons is that you are above using hacks. I don't use any CSS hacks based on bugs unless a client specifically requests a feature that cannot be done otherwise. Event then I advise against it. Correctly is a moving target... shouldn't you be moving away from HTML4.01 strict to XHTML already? ;) Maybe, but what I do is still compliant. Me too. I'm XHTML 1.0 strict compliant in new sites. Are you implied 12% of the population visiting websites are disabled in such a way as to benefit from CSS? That's seems a tad high. Maybe 1%... if that. Aging seniors are in that group (myself included) -- you think that we are less than 1 percent of the population? I think not. As my baby-boomer group continues, the problem will become even more so. Additionally, I think you grossly underestimate the number of people who have disability related problems with sites, that's unfortunate, but typical for people who don't. Maybe, I'm no
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Sat, 2007-04-14 at 14:16 -0400, tedd wrote: At 11:37 AM -0400 4/14/07, Robert Cummings wrote: Sure, but designers head the beck and call of paying customers. Just like we coders do. Sometime you just can't win the argument with a suit :) I didn't know you wore a suit. :-) --- BTW, why can't a browser window be pixel perfect? What's pixel perfect? When an element must be arranged to an exact pixel of position. For instance, cases where borders must have exactly 1 pixel margin between the border and the edge of some other element. Sounds picky and it is, but is something that is desired at times. --- The more interactive the web becomes, the more we see web applications mimicking desktop solutions, On that we agree -- however, desktop solutions are being influenced by web and vice versa. This is a dynamic process where ideas, needs, and solutions merge and continue to change. But don't think that current desktop solutions are the end-all of all application development. I remember when DOS types claimed that using a mouse would never catch on. Everything is changing. --- Regardless of whether you think the web should be used for these kinds of applications is irrelevant, because others do think it can and should be used in this way. Nonsense. What he thinks, what I think, and what you think does influence change. You certainly don't have all the answers and neither do I, but our dialog, our practice, our methods, our post, do provide direction and example. What's the point of this dialog anyway -- to amuse ourselves? No offense, but I would rather be playing Ghost Recon than debating this issue with you. What he thinks matters to him just as each person's thoughts matter to them. In the greater ocean of ideas, no single person can extinguish another person's idea. As such, what he thinks is irrelevant when someone else pushes from the other end and he is incapable of pushing back. Why is he incapable of pushing back? Because he can't stop that person from doing what they want to do. As such what he thinks (about another's thoughts) is irrelevant to that person unless he can persuade that person and every person who thinks the same thing to abandon that thought. I meant what he thinks is irrelevant in the above context... I thought it would have been apparent. I do this because I believe that this is the right way to educate and to give back for those who helped, and continue to help, me. --- Throwing cups of water back into the ocean to prevent the tide from coming in just doesn't work. But, it sure helps to keep your boat afloat. :-) That's a sinking ship :| Besides, what tide are you talking about, the css tide? Everyday, via my attendance to the css-discuss list, I would estimate that there are more people coming on board the css boat than choosing tables. The tide of change. The tide of people using the web for whatever they see fit despite any original intentions of the Web's use. This wasn't about CSS at all, it's about the medium as a whole :) Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
At 2:25 PM -0400 4/14/07, Robert Cummings wrote: A stretchy website stretches it's content area to accomodate the width of the browser. I'm quite sure you knew this, either that, or you're not reading enough. Is my site an example of a stretchy website? It's only two columns, but it could have been three -- I just don't like three. http://sperling.com/ At one point, the only way to layout content was using tables. CSS didn't exist at that time, plain and simple. Yeah, I know how the bad practice came about, but that doesn't mean that we should continue it because of legacy issues. The founder fathers of the web also painted us into 7-bit technology corner that we now have to deal with, but we deal with it. Besides... there's this from the W3C accessibility guidelines: -snip- They allow for the use of tables, and I follow that convention. I currently feel it is necessary at times to use tables. Yes, I never said that the use of tables was prohibited, but that it's use has been abused by WYSIWYG editors like Dreamweaver, which started this thread. Statistics are easy to find: http://www.frontpagewebmaster.com/m-281187/tm.htm#281187 Okay, so read them. In the first post you'll find (from my old college CSUN) this: http://www.imtc.gatech.edu/csun/stats.html It states that 19.4 percent of the population is disabled -- that's about twenty times the number you cited. However, that figure isn't current nor does it represent the world. Keep in mind that English speaking people, who usually have better health coverage, comprise only 4 percent of the world's population. I would estimate that Global disability figures are significantly higher. Maybe Google isn't accessible enough for you (it uses tables after all ;) Nope, Google doesn't have it right either -- they still use graphic captcha's as well. And, they (like others) are not going to change until they understand what some of us are saying. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Sat, 2007-04-14 at 14:58 -0400, tedd wrote: At 2:25 PM -0400 4/14/07, Robert Cummings wrote: A stretchy website stretches it's content area to accomodate the width of the browser. I'm quite sure you knew this, either that, or you're not reading enough. Is my site an example of a stretchy website? It's only two columns, but it could have been three -- I just don't like three. http://sperling.com/ Yes, that is a stretchy site. At one point, the only way to layout content was using tables. CSS didn't exist at that time, plain and simple. Yeah, I know how the bad practice came about, but that doesn't mean that we should continue it because of legacy issues. The founder fathers of the web also painted us into 7-bit technology corner that we now have to deal with, but we deal with it. I realize this, I never said don't use CSS *lol*. I advocate the use of CSS. I don't generally advocate the use of tables for laying out data either. This all came into focus when I said I use them when I feel it necessary. Besides... there's this from the W3C accessibility guidelines: -snip- They allow for the use of tables, and I follow that convention. I currently feel it is necessary at times to use tables. Yes, I never said that the use of tables was prohibited, but that it's use has been abused by WYSIWYG editors like Dreamweaver, which started this thread. Statistics are easy to find: http://www.frontpagewebmaster.com/m-281187/tm.htm#281187 Okay, so read them. I did just before I posted the link :) In the first post you'll find (from my old college CSUN) this: http://www.imtc.gatech.edu/csun/stats.html It states that 19.4 percent of the population is disabled -- that's about twenty times the number you cited. However, that figure isn't current nor does it represent the world. Keep in mind that English speaking people, who usually have better health coverage, comprise only 4 percent of the world's population. I would estimate that Global disability figures are significantly higher. Maybe Google isn't accessible enough for you (it uses tables after all ;) Nope, Google doesn't have it right either -- they still use graphic captcha's as well. And, they (like others) are not going to change until they understand what some of us are saying. There are two types of accessibility at play. Google is meeting one kind, you are advocating another. Both are valid, although yours plays to the heart strings a little more :) Google is ensuring their content looks the same in as many browsers as possible. To them that *is* accessibility (I presume anyways, maybe it's some other reason :) Yours is about usability accessibility. Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
tedd wrote: this ain't the bad old days. That's debatable! -Stut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
tedd wrote: At 7:41 PM +0100 4/12/07, Stut wrote: Yes you'll need to put in a bit more work, but the result will be that much better. -Stut Sorry Stut -- I know you know this, but it's more work to NOT use css. Not when you have a pre-made table-based layout already. -Stut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
Dear Tedd, Please put me down for one pint of asshole, because while you sit on that glass pedestal of CSS superiority I can't help but notice how http://ancientstones.com/ looks completely fucked up in Opera. Opera I might add is ACID2 compliant. Now please go shove your better than thou CSS up your ass :) Trust me, I am at least as versed as you in CSS and choose to use tables. Cheers, Rob. On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 20:02 -0400, tedd wrote: At 6:31 PM -0500 4/12/07, Richard Lynch wrote: On Thu, April 12, 2007 1:34 pm, Robert Cummings wrote: ... It's too bad, I love CSS, it makes for really clean markup, but using it completely in place of tables just isn't feasible right now without resorting to CSS tricks. And using tricks is just as much against the spirit of CSS as using tables for layout :) While straying even more OT than usual, I must chime in with me too I cannot count the number of times I've seen CSS purists pull out gnarly disgusting hacks, far worse than any nested table layout, to work around browser incompatibilities. It would be nice if CSS actually let designers specify what they need to specify. [Can you say 3-column layout with page footer?] And if browsers actually implemented CSS correctly... But, really, CSS is still lacking in what seems to me some basic fundamentals in terms of being able to say put this thing here, and that thing there and you end up resorting to all kinds of non-intuitive code to get the look you want... Richard, you surprise me. CSS is like any other tool -- learn to use it and it will work. As far as any layout, if you can show an example it can be done in css. As far as replacing tables, CSS doesn't -- it provides tables even more versatility. Tables have their place, but not in layout. Lastly, one man's gnarly disgusting hack, is another man's way around a short coming of IE. How many times have you had to use javascript to accomplish a task instead of using just php? One could call that a gnarly disgusting hack, but it's just a solution. As this list proves, no language is without problems. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
Nice observation. On 4/13/07, Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Tedd, Please put me down for one pint of asshole, because while you sit on that glass pedestal of CSS superiority I can't help but notice how http://ancientstones.com/ looks completely fucked up in Opera. Opera I might add is ACID2 compliant. Now please go shove your better than thou CSS up your ass :) Trust me, I am at least as versed as you in CSS and choose to use tables. Cheers, Rob. On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 20:02 -0400, tedd wrote: At 6:31 PM -0500 4/12/07, Richard Lynch wrote: On Thu, April 12, 2007 1:34 pm, Robert Cummings wrote: ... It's too bad, I love CSS, it makes for really clean markup, but using it completely in place of tables just isn't feasible right now without resorting to CSS tricks. And using tricks is just as much against the spirit of CSS as using tables for layout :) While straying even more OT than usual, I must chime in with me too I cannot count the number of times I've seen CSS purists pull out gnarly disgusting hacks, far worse than any nested table layout, to work around browser incompatibilities. It would be nice if CSS actually let designers specify what they need to specify. [Can you say 3-column layout with page footer?] And if browsers actually implemented CSS correctly... But, really, CSS is still lacking in what seems to me some basic fundamentals in terms of being able to say put this thing here, and that thing there and you end up resorting to all kinds of non-intuitive code to get the look you want... Richard, you surprise me. CSS is like any other tool -- learn to use it and it will work. As far as any layout, if you can show an example it can be done in css. As far as replacing tables, CSS doesn't -- it provides tables even more versatility. Tables have their place, but not in layout. Lastly, one man's gnarly disgusting hack, is another man's way around a short coming of IE. How many times have you had to use javascript to accomplish a task instead of using just php? One could call that a gnarly disgusting hack, but it's just a solution. As this list proves, no language is without problems. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `'
RE: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
CSS is young, it will mature in time, meanwhile to each his own layout manner. I see what you are saying Rob, (yes the BUT) BUT table are orginally for formatting data in a litteral manner and css is for layout. Personally i have a heck of time getting embedded tables to do the job for me especially when mixed with javascript (then again i am not using any click and go make your site program, and am NOT saying you are, just that generating the layout with php i find easier with embedded divs doing divdiv/div/div rather then tabletrtdtabletrtd/td/tr/table/td/tr/table and not mentionning the easy of using div classe rather then table/tr/td classes...). I found css to be really helpfull in all my designs with essentially no hacks for cross-browser compatiblity (ie6 ie7 ff1 ff2) which are the 80%+ browsers on the market today. Eggh, maybe i should try opening one of my sites in OPERA one of these days so i can cry :P But then again i don't guarantee they work on any other then the stated browsers and my clients are fine with that... So far.. I see your point and understand fully.. Hopefully css will evolve into a purely compatible layout facilitation for web designers/programmers in the future, so far it has made my day and my UNTable sites are quite clean, and hopefully it will make yours someday ;) Oh and guys, since when is their ONE good way of doing things??? The only thing i regret here is the violence some of these posts take :) Isn't the world full of it already? Can't we tone it down in here where their is some resemblance of peace? ;) Regards, Tim -Message d'origine- De : Jarrel Cobb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Envoyé : vendredi 13 avril 2007 15:24 À : Robert Cummings Cc : tedd; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jochem Maas; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer! Nice observation. On 4/13/07, Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Tedd, Please put me down for one pint of asshole, because while you sit on that glass pedestal of CSS superiority I can't help but notice how http://ancientstones.com/ looks completely fucked up in Opera. Opera I might add is ACID2 compliant. Now please go shove your better than thou CSS up your ass :) Trust me, I am at least as versed as you in CSS and choose to use tables. Cheers, Rob. On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 20:02 -0400, tedd wrote: At 6:31 PM -0500 4/12/07, Richard Lynch wrote: On Thu, April 12, 2007 1:34 pm, Robert Cummings wrote: ... It's too bad, I love CSS, it makes for really clean markup, but using it completely in place of tables just isn't feasible right now without resorting to CSS tricks. And using tricks is just as much against the spirit of CSS as using tables for layout :) While straying even more OT than usual, I must chime in with me too I cannot count the number of times I've seen CSS purists pull out gnarly disgusting hacks, far worse than any nested table layout, to work around browser incompatibilities. It would be nice if CSS actually let designers specify what they need to specify. [Can you say 3-column layout with page footer?] And if browsers actually implemented CSS correctly... But, really, CSS is still lacking in what seems to me some basic fundamentals in terms of being able to say put this thing here, and that thing there and you end up resorting to all kinds of non-intuitive code to get the look you want... Richard, you surprise me. CSS is like any other tool -- learn to use it and it will work. As far as any layout, if you can show an example it can be done in css. As far as replacing tables, CSS doesn't -- it provides tables even more versatility. Tables have their place, but not in layout. Lastly, one man's gnarly disgusting hack, is another man's way around a short coming of IE. How many times have you had to use javascript to accomplish a task instead of using just php? One could call that a gnarly disgusting hack, but it's just a solution. As this list proves, no language is without problems. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | a | powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | such as | forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
At 3:17 AM -0400 4/13/07, Robert Cummings wrote: Dear Tedd, Please put me down for one pint of asshole, because while you sit on that glass pedestal of CSS superiority I can't help but notice how http://ancientstones.com/ looks completely fucked up in Opera. Opera I might add is ACID2 compliant. Now please go shove your better than thou CSS up your ass :) Trust me, I am at least as versed as you in CSS and choose to use tables. Cheers, Rob. Dear Rob: It's not a question of CSS superiority -- but rather a matter of best practice. You want to use a screw driver to drive a nail, then fine -- but some of us do know better. You pointed out that my http://ancientstones.com was not appearing as it should and you were right. I had made some minor changes and did not check Opera. However, the fix was a single line of code and it took me less than a minute to find it -- try that with tables. I'm not saying any of this because of any better than thou attitude, but rather because it's true. If you don't want to consider what I have to say, then fine, no skin off my nose. But I do know this, I listen to what you have to say about php because you know what you're talking about. But in this case, my friend, we differ greatly. You want to stick with tables then fine, but if you are as well versed as I am in CSS, then you know that using tables for layout is more costly in overall development, maintenance, sales, and accessibility. To me and my clients, those things matter. Concepts like separating content from presentation, graceful degradation and progressive enhancement are not just phrases one imagined so they could sit on a glass pedestal and look down on everyone else. They are practices that work and are far more reaching than WYSIWYG table layouts. Cheers, tedd PS: Meant, or not, no offense taken -- I do enjoy your colorful manner. :-) -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
At 8:39 PM -0400 4/12/07, Jarrel Cobb wrote: If you're striving to be the best front end developer you can be then yes, by all means, use pure CSS for layout and never use tools like DW but thats not everyone's goal. Fair enough. My complaint here is not what anyone chooses to do/use but rather what they claim to be. If people are claiming to be the leading edge of web development and are still stuck in using tables for layout, then I find fault with that because using tables that way is certainly not leading edge. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
Tim wrote: ... Oh and guys, since when is their ONE good way of doing things??? The only thing i regret here is the violence some of these posts take :) Isn't the world full of it already? Can't we tone it down in here where their is some resemblance of peace? ;) oh, the world is definitely full of 'it'. do consider that peace and violence are in essence opposites, you can hold to the concept of one without also conceptualizing (and thereby giving credance to) the other. what your searching for is not to be found in such dualistic crap. peacepipe in one hand, broadsword in the other - lets hack on :-) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
-Message d'origine- De : Jochem Maas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Envoyé : vendredi 13 avril 2007 16:32 À : Tim Cc : 'Jarrel Cobb'; 'Robert Cummings'; 'tedd'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer! Tim wrote: ... Oh and guys, since when is their ONE good way of doing things??? The only thing i regret here is the violence some of these posts take :) Isn't the world full of it already? Can't we tone it down in here where their is some resemblance of peace? ;) oh, the world is definitely full of 'it'. do consider that peace and violence are in essence opposites, you can hold to the concept of one without also conceptualizing (and thereby giving credance to) the other. what your searching for is not to be found in such dualistic crap. peacepipe in one hand, broadsword in the other - lets hack on :-) ***BIG SMILE*** Tim -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
At 4:05 PM +0200 4/13/07, Tim wrote: The only thing i regret here is the violence some of these posts take :) Isn't the world full of it already? Can't we tone it down in here where their is some resemblance of peace? ;) Tim Tim: Don't worry about it. This manner is common for this list -- just because someone tells you to shove it, doesn't mean you have to. :-) Besides, it fun. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
-Message d'origine- De : tedd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Envoyé : vendredi 13 avril 2007 16:37 À : Tim; 'Jarrel Cobb'; 'Robert Cummings' Cc : 'tedd'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Jochem Maas'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : RE: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer! At 4:05 PM +0200 4/13/07, Tim wrote: The only thing i regret here is the violence some of these posts take :) Isn't the world full of it already? Can't we tone it down in here where their is some resemblance of peace? ;) Tim Tim: Don't worry about it. This manner is common for this list -- just because someone tells you to shove it, doesn't mean you have to. :-) Besides, it fun. Ahh thought it was a my bomb/penis is bigger then you bomb/penis issue ;) I'll get used to it... Someday... Regards, Tim -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Fri, April 13, 2007 1:20 am, Stut wrote: tedd wrote: this ain't the bad old days. That's debatable! Damnit! Now I've got that These are the good ol' days song stuck in my head, and it's your fault! :-) -- Some people have a gift link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Fri, April 13, 2007 1:24 am, Stut wrote: tedd wrote: At 7:41 PM +0100 4/12/07, Stut wrote: Yes you'll need to put in a bit more work, but the result will be that much better. -Stut Sorry Stut -- I know you know this, but it's more work to NOT use css. Not when you have a pre-made table-based layout already. Actually... I'm not claiming to be an expert at either, but there are times when a table layout is easier/faster to get exactly what I want in all browsers than the CSS solution, which is more appealing from a theoretical POV, but may not actually put things where I want them in every browser. -- Some people have a gift link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
Richard Lynch wrote: On Fri, April 13, 2007 1:20 am, Stut wrote: tedd wrote: this ain't the bad old days. That's debatable! Damnit! Now I've got that These are the good ol' days song stuck in my head, and it's your fault! :-) Hey, don't forget that you should always look on the bright side of life. -Stut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Fri, 2007-04-13 at 10:30 -0400, tedd wrote: At 8:39 PM -0400 4/12/07, Jarrel Cobb wrote: If you're striving to be the best front end developer you can be then yes, by all means, use pure CSS for layout and never use tools like DW but thats not everyone's goal. Fair enough. My complaint here is not what anyone chooses to do/use but rather what they claim to be. If people are claiming to be the leading edge of web development and are still stuck in using tables for layout, then I find fault with that because using tables that way is certainly not leading edge. I'm on the bleeding edge... yup, bleeding tables everywhere ;) Oh the horror, the horror! Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Fri, 2007-04-13 at 16:37 +0200, Tim wrote: -Message d'origine- De : Jochem Maas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Envoyé : vendredi 13 avril 2007 16:32 À : Tim Cc : 'Jarrel Cobb'; 'Robert Cummings'; 'tedd'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer! Tim wrote: ... Oh and guys, since when is their ONE good way of doing things??? The only thing i regret here is the violence some of these posts take :) Isn't the world full of it already? Can't we tone it down in here where their is some resemblance of peace? ;) oh, the world is definitely full of 'it'. do consider that peace and violence are in essence opposites, you can hold to the concept of one without also conceptualizing (and thereby giving credance to) the other. what your searching for is not to be found in such dualistic crap. peacepipe in one hand, broadsword in the other - lets hack on :-) ***BIG SMILE*** And WHAT are you smiling at??? Staves beat peacepipes and broadswords anyday! Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Fri, 2007-04-13 at 10:16 -0400, tedd wrote: At 3:17 AM -0400 4/13/07, Robert Cummings wrote: Dear Tedd, Please put me down for one pint of asshole, because while you sit on that glass pedestal of CSS superiority I can't help but notice how http://ancientstones.com/ looks completely fucked up in Opera. Opera I might add is ACID2 compliant. Now please go shove your better than thou CSS up your ass :) Trust me, I am at least as versed as you in CSS and choose to use tables. Cheers, Rob. Dear Rob: It's not a question of CSS superiority -- but rather a matter of best practice. You want to use a screw driver to drive a nail, then fine -- but some of us do know better. I noticed your site isn't a pixel perfect layout. Probably why you haven't had to tear at your face very hard with CSS :) That whole box-model issue becomes a great deal more elastic when you have some fudge room. You pointed out that my http://ancientstones.com was not appearing as it should and you were right. I had made some minor changes and did not check Opera. However, the fix was a single line of code and it took me less than a minute to find it -- try that with tables. I use my templating engine, I can wrap as many tags as I please into a compound custom tag with attributes that expand into the dirty details. This also provides a great deal of flexibility later when CSS support improves, to replace the dirty tables ;) I do prefer CSS, but having done pixel perfect layouts, I know where things break down. I'm not saying any of this because of any better than thou attitude, but rather because it's true. If you don't want to consider what I have to say, then fine, no skin off my nose. Eww... NOSE SKIN!!! :) But I do know this, I listen to what you have to say about php because you know what you're talking about. But in this case, my friend, we differ greatly. You want to stick with tables then fine, You've got me wrong, I don't want to stick with tables, I want to use the full power of CSS, but unfortunately Microsoft has seen fit to screw everything up as much as possible. but if you are as well versed as I am in CSS, then you know that using tables for layout is more costly in overall development, maintenance, sales, and accessibility. To me and my clients, those things matter. I agree with accessibility to some degree, but for the rest I think you're a bit too far out on a limb. Concepts like separating content from presentation, graceful degradation and progressive enhancement are not just phrases one imagined so they could sit on a glass pedestal and look down on everyone else. They are practices that work and are far more reaching than WYSIWYG table layouts. Agreed, I practice all of the above, but I feel no guilt in using a table for a layout when it simplifies the issue. Between box model issues, float bugs, etc etc, CSS just can't do what needs to be done yet. tedd PS: Meant, or not, no offense taken -- I do enjoy your colorful manner. :-) No offense is ever meant, although I'll give you, I was quite drunk last night (I get 2 outings a year ;) and I used a little more colour than usual *heheh*. Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Fri, 2007-04-13 at 09:24 -0400, Jarrel Cobb wrote: Nice observation. It was a timely cheapshot :) Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Fri, 2007-04-13 at 16:05 +0200, Tim wrote: CSS is young, it will mature in time, meanwhile to each his own layout manner. I see what you are saying Rob, (yes the BUT) BUT table are orginally for formatting data in a litteral manner and css is for layout. I'm sure by formatting you mean lay out ;) Personally i have a heck of time getting embedded tables to do the job for me especially when mixed with javascript (then again i am not using any click and go make your site program, and am NOT saying you are, just that generating the layout with php i find easier with embedded divs doing divdiv/div/div rather then tabletrtdtabletrtd/td/tr/table/td/tr/table and not mentionning the easy of using div classe rather then table/tr/td classes...). *lol* I don't use tables everywhere, I do still use divs when I can and I've found them to be stable and useful. But there are some instances where a table just gets me what I want without fuss. I found css to be really helpfull in all my designs with essentially no hacks for cross-browser compatiblity (ie6 ie7 ff1 ff2) which are the 80%+ browsers on the market today. Eggh, maybe i should try opening one of my sites in OPERA one of these days so i can cry :P But then again i don't guarantee they work on any other then the stated browsers and my clients are fine with that... So far.. I see your point and understand fully.. Hopefully css will evolve into a purely compatible layout facilitation for web designers/programmers in the future, so far it has made my day and my UNTable sites are quite clean, and hopefully it will make yours someday ;) Hopefully... I'm in full favour of it! Oh and guys, since when is their ONE good way of doing things??? The only thing i regret here is the violence some of these posts take :) Isn't the world full of it already? Can't we tone it down in here where their is some resemblance of peace? ;) What violence? No violence that I've seen. Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
[snip] agreed, Dreamweaver is not the tool for you. But I've found it to be useful for whipping up quick HTML newsletters from slice photoshop layouts. And I like to see incremental change so if I used the browser refresh technique trying to tweak the crappy table layouts photoshop spits out, I'd be pressing CTRL+S, ALT+TAB, CTRL+R 100+ times! [/snip] That explains the top posting. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
At 9:14 PM -0400 4/11/07, Jarrel Cobb wrote: You have to save the HTML file to see the changes with a browser refresh. You can use the design view to make sure you are atleast in the ballpark before saving and using the IE/Firefox preview. I know most people go with CSS layout now a days, but this was insanely useful for complicated table layouts involving many nested tables/col and row spans, etc. Also good for detailing sliced photoshop templates...again not so useful for good design but nice for a quick and dirty fix. There are some rendering bugs in the design view but it does get you in the ballpark atleast. (no offense meant) Bullcrap! If you think that nested tables gets you in the ballpark quicker, then you haven't a clue as to what css is used for. My advice, replace your Dreamweaver experience requirement with someone who really knows css and you'll be a lot better off in both reducing time to develop and subsequent compliance issues. IMO, anyone who states that they produce dynamic and cutting edge web sites using a WYSIWYG editor is highly suspect and any employer who asks for that experience is doing his business and his clients a disservice. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
Thanks for the insight Tedd. It's good to get real feedback (unlike some of these guys busting my stones here - lol). I can take the blame on putting that Dreamweaver component in there, not our Development team. Gotta remember a lot of times you are dealing with a job spec developed from HR and we don't get the nuances of the space like you folks do. Basically the Dreamweaver is listed there because there is a lot of interdepartmental work that goes on and the less apt employees who are more Creative in nature work well in the Dreamweaver application (think Magazine Editors and Photo Departments and such, all of the folks who are more content than anything else). So I need someone who can play both sides, our developers are all excellent and I'd put them up with anyone in terms of ability. So thanks everyone for taking the time to see what World Wrestling Entertainment is all about. I'd really appreciate you keeping us in mind if you hear of anyone who is looking. Thx - Pat -Original Message- From: tedd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Bullcrap! If you think that nested tables gets you in the ballpark quicker, then you haven't a clue as to what css is used for. My advice, replace your Dreamweaver experience requirement with someone who really knows css and you'll be a lot better off in both reducing time to develop and subsequent compliance issues. IMO, anyone who states that they produce dynamic and cutting edge web sites using a WYSIWYG editor is highly suspect and any employer who asks for that experience is doing his business and his clients a disservice. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 10:09 -0400, Arbitrio, Pat wrote: Thanks for the insight Tedd. It's good to get real feedback (unlike some of these guys busting my stones here - lol). Someone with big stones wouldn't complain! Maybe you need thicker skin ;) (scrotum pun intended) Cheers, Rob. I can take the blame on putting that Dreamweaver component in there, not our Development team. Gotta remember a lot of times you are dealing with a job spec developed from HR and we don't get the nuances of the space like you folks do. Basically the Dreamweaver is listed there because there is a lot of interdepartmental work that goes on and the less apt employees who are more Creative in nature work well in the Dreamweaver application (think Magazine Editors and Photo Departments and such, all of the folks who are more content than anything else). So I need someone who can play both sides, our developers are all excellent and I'd put them up with anyone in terms of ability. So thanks everyone for taking the time to see what World Wrestling Entertainment is all about. I'd really appreciate you keeping us in mind if you hear of anyone who is looking. Thx - Pat -Original Message- From: tedd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Bullcrap! If you think that nested tables gets you in the ballpark quicker, then you haven't a clue as to what css is used for. My advice, replace your Dreamweaver experience requirement with someone who really knows css and you'll be a lot better off in both reducing time to develop and subsequent compliance issues. IMO, anyone who states that they produce dynamic and cutting edge web sites using a WYSIWYG editor is highly suspect and any employer who asks for that experience is doing his business and his clients a disservice. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
First, CSS layout is relatively new thing. Its been possible for a while but bad browser support for CSS made it difficult. I didn't imply that people should use a nested table layout and I clearly statement that now a days most people go for CSS layouts. I was simply saying that Dreamweaver came/comes in handy when you are forced to work with a nested table layout either because its 1998 and I.E. 4 has crappy CSS support or because you're working with HTML generated by Photoshop. On 4/12/07, tedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 9:14 PM -0400 4/11/07, Jarrel Cobb wrote: You have to save the HTML file to see the changes with a browser refresh. You can use the design view to make sure you are atleast in the ballpark before saving and using the IE/Firefox preview. I know most people go with CSS layout now a days, but this was insanely useful for complicated table layouts involving many nested tables/col and row spans, etc. Also good for detailing sliced photoshop templates...again not so useful for good design but nice for a quick and dirty fix. There are some rendering bugs in the design view but it does get you in the ballpark atleast. (no offense meant) Bullcrap! If you think that nested tables gets you in the ballpark quicker, then you haven't a clue as to what css is used for.
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 14:11 -0400, Jarrel Cobb wrote: First, CSS layout is relatively new thing. Its been possible for a while but bad browser support for CSS made it difficult. Microsoft is the bane of any standard. Even with IE7 they still haven't opened up many of the important CSS features we all crave to get our sites looking right. For the record, I still use tables for layouts, only now I generate them via custom tags. It's too bad, I love CSS, it makes for really clean markup, but using it completely in place of tables just isn't feasible right now without resorting to CSS tricks. And using tricks is just as much against the spirit of CSS as using tables for layout :) Also, how many monkeys got nailed when IE7 came out and fixed some of their bugs *lol*-- tricks are just another disaster waiting to happen. There's a point where functionality and purism cross, I try to hit that mark. I didn't imply that people should use a nested table layout and I clearly statement that now a days most people go for CSS layouts. Oh yeah, I use CSS to properly style my table layouts *hah*. I was simply saying that Dreamweaver came/comes in handy when you are forced to work with a nested table layout either because its 1998 and I.E. 4 has crappy CSS support or because you're working with HTML generated by Photoshop. I have no problem viewing table layouts using the browser. Even XHTML strict happily supports table layouts and doesn't generate any warnings or errors from the W3C validator. Someday maybe Microsoft will only have a tiny market dominance (please God, please) and we can all move along without clawing at our faces in frustration. Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
Jarrel Cobb wrote: Dreamweaver came/comes in handy when you are forced to work with a nested table layout snipped something irrelevant about IE in 1998 because you're working with HTML generated by Photoshop. I hear this argument used a lot. Just because you get a design that has been generated in Photoshop is no excuse for not conforming to web standards and using CSS. Deadlines and lack of resources are barely passable as reasons (read: excuses), but just because you get given vegetables doesn't mean you can't create a technically beautiful salad. Yes you'll need to put in a bit more work, but the result will be that much better. -Stut -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
I believe the OP was saying that in the bad ol' days before CSS, DW could get you closer with nested table layouts faster than endless tweaking and re-loading, so DW was a useful tool for that reason in the past. On Thu, April 12, 2007 8:39 am, tedd wrote: At 9:14 PM -0400 4/11/07, Jarrel Cobb wrote: You have to save the HTML file to see the changes with a browser refresh. You can use the design view to make sure you are atleast in the ballpark before saving and using the IE/Firefox preview. I know most people go with CSS layout now a days, but this was insanely useful for complicated table layouts involving many nested tables/col and row spans, etc. Also good for detailing sliced photoshop templates...again not so useful for good design but nice for a quick and dirty fix. There are some rendering bugs in the design view but it does get you in the ballpark atleast. (no offense meant) Bullcrap! If you think that nested tables gets you in the ballpark quicker, then you haven't a clue as to what css is used for. My advice, replace your Dreamweaver experience requirement with someone who really knows css and you'll be a lot better off in both reducing time to develop and subsequent compliance issues. IMO, anyone who states that they produce dynamic and cutting edge web sites using a WYSIWYG editor is highly suspect and any employer who asks for that experience is doing his business and his clients a disservice. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- Some people have a gift link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Thu, April 12, 2007 1:34 pm, Robert Cummings wrote: ... It's too bad, I love CSS, it makes for really clean markup, but using it completely in place of tables just isn't feasible right now without resorting to CSS tricks. And using tricks is just as much against the spirit of CSS as using tables for layout :) While straying even more OT than usual, I must chime in with me too I cannot count the number of times I've seen CSS purists pull out gnarly disgusting hacks, far worse than any nested table layout, to work around browser incompatibilities. It would be nice if CSS actually let designers specify what they need to specify. [Can you say 3-column layout with page footer?] And if browsers actually implemented CSS correctly... But, really, CSS is still lacking in what seems to me some basic fundamentals in terms of being able to say put this thing here, and that thing there and you end up resorting to all kinds of non-intuitive code to get the look you want... -- Some people have a gift link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
At 2:11 PM -0400 4/12/07, Jarrel Cobb wrote: First, CSS layout is relatively new thing. New? New to you perhaps, but certainly not new! CSS2 was released almost ten years ago -- that's a lifetime in web years. Its been possible for a while but bad browser support for CSS made it difficult. I didn't imply that people should use a nested table layout and I clearly statement that now a days most people go for CSS layouts. I was simply saying that Dreamweaver came/comes in handy when you are forced to work with a nested table layout either because its 1998 and I.E. 4 has crappy CSS support or because you're working with HTML generated by Photoshop. True, browsers support css differently, but that hasn't prohibited competent developers from learning how to use it and developing compliant web sites -- just look around. Those who use poor browser support as an excuse for not learning css are simply choosing to remain ignorant. That's OK, people can remain as ignorant as they want -- but it's another to claim that they are leading edge in developing web sites when they're still stuck in tables. I see those claims all the time by companies who haven't a clue as to what validation is, let alone things like accessibility. What's unfortunate, those things matter in sales -- and that's what clients really want! And, no one is forced to work with nested tables, even if you have to work from Photoshop layouts. What do you think the rest of us do? We see what the client wants and we create it. There's not a frigging layout that you can create in Photoshop that I can't tun into a compliant web page AND probably do it faster than your Dreamweaver experts when you consider the entire web site. There's more to a web site than a Photoshop image. Sorry for the rant -- but sometimes things are so obvious it's frustrating to hear people supporting poor practice. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
At 7:41 PM +0100 4/12/07, Stut wrote: Yes you'll need to put in a bit more work, but the result will be that much better. -Stut Sorry Stut -- I know you know this, but it's more work to NOT use css. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
At 6:31 PM -0500 4/12/07, Richard Lynch wrote: On Thu, April 12, 2007 1:34 pm, Robert Cummings wrote: ... It's too bad, I love CSS, it makes for really clean markup, but using it completely in place of tables just isn't feasible right now without resorting to CSS tricks. And using tricks is just as much against the spirit of CSS as using tables for layout :) While straying even more OT than usual, I must chime in with me too I cannot count the number of times I've seen CSS purists pull out gnarly disgusting hacks, far worse than any nested table layout, to work around browser incompatibilities. It would be nice if CSS actually let designers specify what they need to specify. [Can you say 3-column layout with page footer?] And if browsers actually implemented CSS correctly... But, really, CSS is still lacking in what seems to me some basic fundamentals in terms of being able to say put this thing here, and that thing there and you end up resorting to all kinds of non-intuitive code to get the look you want... Richard, you surprise me. CSS is like any other tool -- learn to use it and it will work. As far as any layout, if you can show an example it can be done in css. As far as replacing tables, CSS doesn't -- it provides tables even more versatility. Tables have their place, but not in layout. Lastly, one man's gnarly disgusting hack, is another man's way around a short coming of IE. How many times have you had to use javascript to accomplish a task instead of using just php? One could call that a gnarly disgusting hack, but it's just a solution. As this list proves, no language is without problems. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
At 6:25 PM -0500 4/12/07, Richard Lynch wrote: I believe the OP was saying that in the bad ol' days before CSS, DW could get you closer with nested table layouts faster than endless tweaking and re-loading, so DW was a useful tool for that reason in the past. The OP posted this week and asked for Dreamweaver experience -- this ain't the bad old days. If you're in the business and claim to develop leading edge web sites, then I think you should be using a technique that has revolutionized web develop for almost a decade now. At what point do you think they're going to pick this up in their leading edge development, huh? When a client comes forward and demands W3C compliance; or when one of their clients loses a contract with the US Federal Government because their web site isn't section 508 compliant; or when one of us in the trenches tell them what they need to hear? I'm just giving them good advice how to support their leading edge claim. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
I've been atleast attempting to use CSS for partial layout for 6 or so years so yes..I know CSS is not new. That was not my point. My point was that CSS hasn't been a real viable means for layout (not pure CSS anyway) until relatively recently. Most sites until recently used tables for layout because of the bad support for CSS in browsers. Also, everyone is ignorant of somethings and support poor practice in some form or another. Most OOP PHP5 developers considers the code that the typical PHP4/5 procedural developer writes to be bad practice. Most Java, C#, Ruby, Python, etc developers consider the code that even OOP PHP5 developers churn out to be bad. What really matters is if it works for you...and when it ceases being useful or productive then more on. If you're striving to be the best front end developer you can be then yes, by all means, use pure CSS for layout and never use tools like DW but thats not everyone's goal. On 4/12/07, tedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 2:11 PM -0400 4/12/07, Jarrel Cobb wrote: First, CSS layout is relatively new thing. New? New to you perhaps, but certainly not new! CSS2 was released almost ten years ago -- that's a lifetime in web years. Its been possible for a while but bad browser support for CSS made it difficult. I didn't imply that people should use a nested table layout and I clearly statement that now a days most people go for CSS layouts. I was simply saying that Dreamweaver came/comes in handy when you are forced to work with a nested table layout either because its 1998 and I.E. 4 has crappy CSS support or because you're working with HTML generated by Photoshop. True, browsers support css differently, but that hasn't prohibited competent developers from learning how to use it and developing compliant web sites -- just look around. Those who use poor browser support as an excuse for not learning css are simply choosing to remain ignorant. That's OK, people can remain as ignorant as they want -- but it's another to claim that they are leading edge in developing web sites when they're still stuck in tables. I see those claims all the time by companies who haven't a clue as to what validation is, let alone things like accessibility. What's unfortunate, those things matter in sales -- and that's what clients really want! And, no one is forced to work with nested tables, even if you have to work from Photoshop layouts. What do you think the rest of us do? We see what the client wants and we create it. There's not a frigging layout that you can create in Photoshop that I can't tun into a compliant web page AND probably do it faster than your Dreamweaver experts when you consider the entire web site. There's more to a web site than a Photoshop image. Sorry for the rant -- but sometimes things are so obvious it's frustrating to hear people supporting poor practice. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 17:43 -0400, Arbitrio, Pat wrote: Other skills: * Dreamweaver *ROFLMFAO* Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 18:53 -0400, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 17:43 -0400, Arbitrio, Pat wrote: Other skills: * Dreamweaver *ROFLMFAO* Still *ROFLMFAO* Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 18:53 -0400, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 17:43 -0400, Arbitrio, Pat wrote: Other skills: * Dreamweaver *ROFLMFAO* Still *ROFLMFAO* I don't see what's so funny. there is great skill involved with becoming proficient in using Dreamweaver . . without commiting suicide in the attempt. Cheers, Rob. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
[snip] Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 18:53 -0400, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 17:43 -0400, Arbitrio, Pat wrote: Other skills: * Dreamweaver *ROFLMFAO* Still *ROFLMFAO* I don't see what's so funny. there is great skill involved with becoming proficient in using Dreamweaver . [/snip] ROFLMMFAO -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 18:03 -0500, Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 18:53 -0400, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 17:43 -0400, Arbitrio, Pat wrote: Other skills: * Dreamweaver *ROFLMFAO* Still *ROFLMFAO* I don't see what's so funny. there is great skill involved with becoming proficient in using Dreamweaver . [/snip] ROFLMMFAO I think I peed my pants :B -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
- Original Message - From: Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Jochem Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED]; php-general@lists.php.net Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 1:05 AM Subject: RE: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer! On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 18:03 -0500, Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 18:53 -0400, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 17:43 -0400, Arbitrio, Pat wrote: Other skills: * Dreamweaver *ROFLMFAO* Still *ROFLMFAO* I don't see what's so funny. there is great skill involved with becoming proficient in using Dreamweaver . [/snip] ROFLMMFAO I think I peed my pants :B me too :)) jm -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Wed, April 11, 2007 6:00 pm, Jochem Maas wrote: Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 18:53 -0400, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 17:43 -0400, Arbitrio, Pat wrote: Other skills: * Dreamweaver *ROFLMFAO* Still *ROFLMFAO* I don't see what's so funny. there is great skill involved with becoming proficient in using Dreamweaver . God knows I can't use it. I tried once, and in about 3 minutes crashed the dang thing just trying to drag some table borders around. This was a repeatable problem (every time I tried, about 3) so then I just gave up. But I'm the guy who took ~10 years to figure out that cramming more stuff into less screen real estate was a Bad Idea, and that some extra white space was a Good Thing. So there ya go. Ya gotta at least give him points for having the location in the Subject line, unlike *some* job posters. -- Some people have a gift link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
There is a code view in Dreamweaver. The split view is useful for making handcoded changes to HTML in the top code view and seeing the immediate result in the bottom design view. You dont have to use the WYSIWYG features. On 4/11/07, Richard Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, April 11, 2007 6:00 pm, Jochem Maas wrote: Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 18:53 -0400, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 17:43 -0400, Arbitrio, Pat wrote: Other skills: * Dreamweaver *ROFLMFAO* Still *ROFLMFAO* I don't see what's so funny. there is great skill involved with becoming proficient in using Dreamweaver . God knows I can't use it. I tried once, and in about 3 minutes crashed the dang thing just trying to drag some table borders around. This was a repeatable problem (every time I tried, about 3) so then I just gave up. But I'm the guy who took ~10 years to figure out that cramming more stuff into less screen real estate was a Bad Idea, and that some extra white space was a Good Thing. So there ya go. Ya gotta at least give him points for having the location in the Subject line, unlike *some* job posters. -- Some people have a gift link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 20:59 -0400, Jarrel Cobb wrote: There is a code view in Dreamweaver. The split view is useful for making handcoded changes to HTML in the top code view and seeing the immediate result in the bottom design view. You dont have to use the WYSIWYG features. I see changes by hitting CTRL+R on any given browser for which I'm debugging... at least when those browsers show rendering bugs I know I'm fixing bugs for those browsers and not Dreamweaver bugs. Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
You have to save the HTML file to see the changes with a browser refresh. You can use the design view to make sure you are atleast in the ballpark before saving and using the IE/Firefox preview. I know most people go with CSS layout now a days, but this was insanely useful for complicated table layouts involving many nested tables/col and row spans, etc. Also good for detailing sliced photoshop templates...again not so useful for good design but nice for a quick and dirty fix. There are some rendering bugs in the design view but it does get you in the ballpark atleast. On 4/11/07, Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 20:59 -0400, Jarrel Cobb wrote: There is a code view in Dreamweaver. The split view is useful for making handcoded changes to HTML in the top code view and seeing the immediate result in the bottom design view. You dont have to use the WYSIWYG features. I see changes by hitting CTRL+R on any given browser for which I'm debugging... at least when those browsers show rendering bugs I know I'm fixing bugs for those browsers and not Dreamweaver bugs. Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `'
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 21:14 -0400, Jarrel Cobb wrote: You have to save the HTML file to see the changes with a browser refresh. You can use the design view to make sure you are atleast in the ballpark before saving and using the IE/Firefox preview. I know most people go with CSS layout now a days, but this was insanely useful for complicated table layouts involving many nested tables/col and row spans, etc. Also good for detailing sliced photoshop templates...again not so useful for good design but nice for a quick and dirty fix. There are some rendering bugs in the design view but it does get you in the ballpark atleast. You're right, I need to use CTRL+S, ALT+TAB, CTRL+R. Those 3 keystrokes really slow me down... NOT! CSS or not, the browser has always sufficed... in fact everything that would be expected to work in the browser just works the way you'd expect... Flash, JavaScript, CSS, header redirects, meta refreshes, etc, etc... maybe it's because I use the browser *lol*. Anything else is just an imposter. Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
Jarrel Cobb wrote: There is a code view in Dreamweaver. The split view is useful for making handcoded changes to HTML in the top code view and seeing the immediate result in the bottom design view. You dont have to use the WYSIWYG features. sarcasm voice=yodaye/sarcasm I'm glad to say my position allows me not to use *any* of it's 'features'. simply put, in this day and age, HTML is not a visual thing at all - it's purely semantic (and writing things like 'dt' or 'div' are not very hard), layout and styling is the realm of CSS (which dreamweaver is very good as screwing up). not to mention these 'facts': 1. often as not I use javascript to manipulate the dom and build/change pages, there are plenty like me doing the same. 2. HTML and [php] code (other than simple presentation logic) should be kept as far apart as possible). 3. CTRL+R (what Robbert said) but at the end of the day - whatever works for you, right? darn - it's all turned serious :-) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 21:14 -0400, Jarrel Cobb wrote: You have to save the HTML file to see the changes with a browser refresh. You can use the design view to make sure you are atleast in the ballpark before saving and using the IE/Firefox preview. I know most people go with CSS layout now a days, but this was insanely useful for complicated table layouts involving many nested tables/col and row spans, etc. Also good for detailing sliced photoshop templates...again not so useful for good design but nice for a quick and dirty fix. There are some rendering bugs in the design view but it does get you in the ballpark atleast. You're right, I need to use CTRL+S, ALT+TAB, CTRL+R. Those 3 keystrokes really slow me down... NOT! CSS or not, the browser has always sufficed... in fact everything that would be expected to work in the browser just works the way you'd expect... Flash, JavaScript, CSS, header redirects, meta refreshes, etc, etc... maybe it's because I use the browser *lol*. Anything else is just an imposter. what did you just call me? :-D Cheers, Rob. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 03:24 +0200, Jochem Maas wrote: Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-04-11 at 21:14 -0400, Jarrel Cobb wrote: You have to save the HTML file to see the changes with a browser refresh. You can use the design view to make sure you are atleast in the ballpark before saving and using the IE/Firefox preview. I know most people go with CSS layout now a days, but this was insanely useful for complicated table layouts involving many nested tables/col and row spans, etc. Also good for detailing sliced photoshop templates...again not so useful for good design but nice for a quick and dirty fix. There are some rendering bugs in the design view but it does get you in the ballpark atleast. You're right, I need to use CTRL+S, ALT+TAB, CTRL+R. Those 3 keystrokes really slow me down... NOT! CSS or not, the browser has always sufficed... in fact everything that would be expected to work in the browser just works the way you'd expect... Flash, JavaScript, CSS, header redirects, meta refreshes, etc, etc... maybe it's because I use the browser *lol*. Anything else is just an imposter. what did you just call me? :-D Nothing, but don't look now... you've peed your pants too :) Cheers, Rob. -- .. | InterJinn Application Framework - http://www.interjinn.com | :: | An application and templating framework for PHP. Boasting | | a powerful, scalable system for accessing system services | | such as forms, properties, sessions, and caches. InterJinn | | also provides an extremely flexible architecture for | | creating re-usable components quickly and easily. | `' -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
agreed, Dreamweaver is not the tool for you. But I've found it to be useful for whipping up quick HTML newsletters from slice photoshop layouts. And I like to see incremental change so if I used the browser refresh technique trying to tweak the crappy table layouts photoshop spits out, I'd be pressing CTRL+S, ALT+TAB, CTRL+R 100+ times! On 4/11/07, Jochem Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jarrel Cobb wrote: There is a code view in Dreamweaver. The split view is useful for making handcoded changes to HTML in the top code view and seeing the immediate result in the bottom design view. You dont have to use the WYSIWYG features. sarcasm voice=yodaye/sarcasm I'm glad to say my position allows me not to use *any* of it's 'features'. simply put, in this day and age, HTML is not a visual thing at all - it's purely semantic (and writing things like 'dt' or 'div' are not very hard), layout and styling is the realm of CSS (which dreamweaver is very good as screwing up). not to mention these 'facts': 1. often as not I use javascript to manipulate the dom and build/change pages, there are plenty like me doing the same. 2. HTML and [php] code (other than simple presentation logic) should be kept as far apart as possible). 3. CTRL+R (what Robbert said) but at the end of the day - whatever works for you, right? darn - it's all turned serious :-)
Re: [PHP] WWE in Stamford, CT needs a kick ass PHP Developer!
On Wed, April 11, 2007 7:59 pm, Jarrel Cobb wrote: There is a code view in Dreamweaver. The split view is useful for making handcoded changes to HTML in the top code view and seeing the immediate result in the bottom design view. You dont have to use the WYSIWYG features. If I'm only going to use code view, why in the world would I use Dreamweaver?! I can juse use vi and have a much less bulky editor. Oh wait, I *do* just use vi! :-) -- Some people have a gift link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/browse/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
